The Athletic Hockey Show - Vancouver Canucks feeling the Bruce Boudreau Effect, does the NHL need to redefine “clean hits”?, Matthew Tkachuk vs. Brady Tkachuk and other listener questions, Multiple Choice Madness, and more

Episode Date: December 13, 2021

First, Ian, Hailey, and guest cohost Dom Luszczyszyn, talk about the weirdest or saddest things to do when on a roadtrip alone, and then discuss whether the Vancouver Canucks can make the playoffs with the “Bruce Boudreau Effect” in full effect, the Minnesota Wild and Nashville Predators sitting 1-2 in the Central division standings, where things have gone wrong for the New York Islanders so far, if there needs to be a change in checking rules after a few huge, technically clean hits resulted in bad injuries over the last week or so, how Dom and Sean Gentille create their power rankings, and more.Then, the group answers listener questions including if the Anaheim Ducks are for real, whether Matthew or Brady Tkachuk is the better player right now, and if the Ottawa Senators top line can turn into one of the best in the league, biggest national team snubs, and favorite Ben & Jerry’s ice cream flavors.Plus, to close things out, Ian, Hailey, and Dom run through a series of Multiple Choice Madness questions about which John Tortorella comment from his time at ESPN so far was most bothersome, if the 8 current Eastern Conference playoff teams are locks to make the playoffs, and if the group will give Bobby Orr a follow on Twitter after the NHL legend joined social media over the weekend.And, right now, you can sign up for an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back, everybody. It is your Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Ian Mendus Haley-Salvian with you, as always, to kick off your week in the hockey world. Coming up, our pal Domloos Chichen is with us for a good chunk of the show today. We'll get his thoughts on the Anaheim Ducks, maybe the New York Islanders, some mailbag questions there. Haley's team that she covers, Algae Flames, they're in COVID protocol, they're shut down, what's the story there? Do we think the Vancouver Canucks could be a legitimate playoff team under Bruce Boudreau? They're running right now.

Four straight wins. Dom will hit on that. Are the eight teams that are sitting in playoff spots in the east? Are they locked in right now? Like, do we think that the eight teams in the east are locked in? Or is somebody from the outside going to be able to push in? We'll get to all of that. A little bit of multiple choice madness as well coming up.

It is Ian Mendez. Haley, Salvian, with you as always. But like we said, Haley, we're bringing in a third guest here. Like a third, but you want Dom to be like a third host here. Yeah, I'm sick of just talking to you every week. So I figured we'd bring Dom in. And you can't even pronounce his name right. We've been doing this show for over a year now and you still can't do it.

You told me it's like loose chicken, loose chichen. I feel like if I'm a host, but you have to add like. You gotta say my name right. Yeah, like you have to add the like shah, not like you're, you're. Lose chishin. There we go. Say it. dumb.

That's fine. There, I nailed it. Listen, we're going to just annoy people with my inability to pronounce the name here. Okay? It's Dom at the athletic. Dom at the athletic. It's great to have you. Dom.

Thanks for, thanks for dropping. It is great to be on the Canadian show. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And hey, tell you what, before we kick off this show, as a little early Christmas gift for us, if you're a fan of us with the Athletic Hockey Show, please go on Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating we would certainly appreciate it.

Listen, I want to ask both of you a question here. And we'll use our colleagues, Mark Lazarus and Arpin and Sarah Sivian and Mike Russo. They dropped the joint piece on the athletic on Monday. Just about travel stories, nightmares, horrors, et cetera. And I want to ask you, last week, Haley went to Southern California. Haley, you were in L.A. in Anaheim, is that right? Yeah. Okay.

And you made, first of all, you posted a picture from what I thought was Disney, Disneyland. And then I thought for a second, Dom, I thought for a second, Haley went to Disney by herself, which I texted her and it's, that's kind of weird. Like, okay, so first question, would either of you go to an amusement park on your own? Like, without any friends, you just happen to be somewhere at like a six flags or, or? whatever and you happen to have some free time. Would either of you go to an amusement park by yourself? No, there's no chance. I feel like that's an activity you need to do with friends because it's more fun going

with someone. I feel like an amusement park by yourself is just, it's not as exciting. It's kind of sad. Like, I wouldn't even, even if you're at an amusement park with a bunch of people and nobody else wants to go on a specific ride, like I won't go on a roller coaster. or a ride by myself. Because then you're just like, like beside a bunch of random people or by yourself. Like you're screaming or woo.

It's just weird and sad. So no, I didn't actually go into the Disney Park. But there's not that much to do in Anaheim. But the traffic is really bad getting out to Anaheim. So I left really early from downtown. I was in Santa Monica. So I left Santa Monica early to get to Anaheim. And I was like, oh, what's there to do here?

And they're like, you could go to Disney. And there's like the little Disney downtown district that's not actually in the park. It's free admission. It's just a bunch of shops and restaurants and things to walk around and look at. So I just went and did that. Even that was a little bit like lots of couples and families and kids here. And I'm just walking around Disney by myself, like in an outfit that I can wear to the rink. Like business casual attire at Disney.

It was a little bit sad. but I got an ice cream and ate it by myself, which was nice. Okay. Ice cream by yourself at downtown Disney. That's acceptable. Now here's my last question about traveling on the road. And maybe this even applies to home. Would either of you or do either of you eat dinner by yourselves?

Like going out to a restaurant eating by yourselves? I don't. I feel like if it's like a burger or something or pizza, go, but, like, actually, like, I sit down restaurant. I feel, I'd feel a little odd about it. There's a scene in forgetting Sarah Marshall, which I watched recently, where Jason Seagull's character is in Hawaii alone, um, dealing with his breakup and he, his ex is there with her new, her new boo. And it's a sad time for him. And he goes to dinner alone and the, the wait staff is, like, alone. Aren't you going to be, like, bored? Like, do you want a magazine? Like, that's what I

always thinking about. And there's also that scene in super bad where they say, I don't want to eat alone. I'm going to be like a Stephen Glansberg. So that is always running through my mind. If I'm on the road, which I never am, I would probably hit up a colleague and say, hey, do you want to go for dinner? So I don't have to do it alone. I'm the Stephen Glansberg on the road. Because your colleagues aren't always available. Like, obviously it's nice to actually, like, get to meet people or meet up and go for dinner, get coffee, go for a drink, whatever. But sometimes if you, like, just have to get to the rink, like, they're not always going for dinner.

They're at home before the rank, whatever. So I go out and eat by myself. Like, I'll just sit at the bar wherever I go. I'll make sure it's, like, casual enough that I could just sit and eat at the bar by myself and just scroll through my phone and read stuff. I don't know. I don't think it's that bad. Like, I go for dinner alone all the time on the road.

but yeah I guess it could look a little like you do you need magazine are you bored like I guess I just read my digital online magazine you go on TikTok at the restaurant yeah with the TikTok like without headphones on just playing the audio out loud yeah but no I don't think it's that bad on the road let me ask you if this is weird so I just want to pass on my one weird travel story and you tell me if this was a weird move by me or not. I was covering the NHL lockout in 2012, the winter of 2012. So I actually spent New Year's Eve in Manhattan. I was at the Westin Times Square, right in downtown,

right in the heart of it all, right, in Midtown Manhattan. And of course, they have the ball dropping and everything. I was exhausted from a day of standing outside and doing this stuff. I went to bed at about 10.30 at night in Times Square. on New Year's Eve and actually woke up to the sound of the cheering outside and the ball dropping and all that. Is that weird? Was that weird of me to go to bed in Midtown Manhattan on New Year's Eve at 10.30 p.m.? I feel like New Year's is overrated, so no. Maybe like a little bit because you're in New York and obviously they have the big ball drop or whatever and I don't know.

Are you going to go watch that alone? Are you going to go stand outside in time square? Can you imagine Ian standing in Times Square alone. Like, he watches the ball drop. Yeah, vibes by himself, watches the ball drop and goes like, all right. And then walks back to his hotel. Like, what's the difference?

Yeah. With my 2013 glasses on. Yeah. In the day. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like you made the right play going to bed. Yeah.

I think so too. And yeah, New Year's is kind of dumb. I don't. I stay up late all the time. But on New Year's, I always pass out before. I think that's for other reasons. No.

No. What do you try to say? No, I can... Big party animal on New Year's probably also alone. Yep, thanks for that. I'm sorry. As soon as it came, I'm like, wow, that was vicious. Listen, let's get back on.

Let's talk about something that brings everybody together. It's Bruce Boudreau. Bruce Boudreau. Everyone loves Bruce, right? He's Vancouver fans love him. They've won four in a row. Listen, Dom, let me,

let me start with you on this one because I, I think it feels like there's a little bit of a change in Vancouver that, you know, they've won four games in a row. I mean, are we now thinking that the Vancouver Canucks can legitimately, maybe challenge for a playoff spot now?

Um, maybe. I think it's always good to be optimistic. Uh, you're off to a four and no start. Always nice. Their playoff chances have tripled since he's arrived. So that's always good.

good. The only difference is that it's gone from 1% to 3%. So that is the issue, but my model does not account for coaching. So if there is some Bruce Boudreau magic, which I believe there is, then that's probably underselling it, but it would still take a lot for them to go on this epic run to make the playoffs. I looked into all of that in 16 stats last week, and even if the Canucks play like a 105 point team. Their chances are 43% from this point onward, which is very good, but that's such a high bar for a team

that before Boudre arrived did not look very good at all. And I mean, does the fact that, and maybe you can even argue this too, because I don't know if you actually think that the Pacific's been better than we thought, but I think so. I mean, if you look at it right now,

and it's going to change, but the ducks are leading, the Pacific by points. The flames have the best points percentage, but you've got like the ducks, the flames, Edmonton, all kind of close in terms of the points that they have right now. Vegas is going to get better. The shark's been probably better than we thought. Does the fact that the Pacific isn't as easy as we projected make it even more difficult for Vancouver? It's not like they just need to climb out of the basement of a really terrible division. Yeah, I think so. And it's especially also in the central as well because odds are Vancouver is not making the third sea in the Pacific.

They are going to have to also compete with Winnipeg who will start turning things around. The stars who were red hot until they slumped a bit in Nashville, who never seems to go away. So it's going to be a big log jam in the middle and maybe Vancouver makes it a bit more interesting than we thought they would a couple weeks ago. But at the same time, it's just such an uphill battle that the odds are really stacked against them. You know, I think it's interesting that you say, one of the tricky things to try and to put into your model is coaching. Like, could you give our listeners a little sense of how difficult that is to quantify coaching? Like, do you look at, like, is it like player deployment,

like old coach versus new coach? Is there, like, is there a way to quantify coaching changes? Is that, is that why it's such a challenge? I, I don't do it because I, I don't even know where to begin. I know Micah McCurdy, who you made on Twitter as ineffective math, has coaching built into his model. And he does some things measuring. So I'm trying to separate the coach effect from the player effects and how good the coach makes each player. And it's really interesting stuff. I just, I wouldn't know how to do it myself.

And I think he had Boudjurlis as a pretty good coach who will improve offense a lot, but not so much as defense. He had a good threat on Twitter. today as well that sort of dives into the effects that you can expect from Boudreau. But I generally just don't know how to separate it myself. So above my pay grade. Gosh. With the Canucks, like do you think that some of what was going wrong? And I know you can't quantify coaching, but like you just look at some of the players who

individually were having difficult seasons within the system. Like, do you think there's just players who are bound to bounce back that your model rated pretty highly before the season. Like Elias Pedersen, you know, he didn't look like an elite player to start the year. What do you think about some of those players bouncing back? Yeah, I think they all should, and especially on a new coach, it's always easier because your mind hits the reset button and tries to impress a new coach. Part of the Boudro effect is that the teams he took over midway through the season,

the stars were playing so uncharacteristically bad that there's a natural bump. just from them getting back to where they should be. So Ovechkin was fine, but he wasn't at his peak self. Backstrom was playing terribly. Alex Seven wasn't doing much. Mike Green wasn't Mike Green yet until Bruce Boudreau came along. And then in Anaheim, Getslaff, Perry, Bobby Ryan, Lumier Viznovsky, all those guys were playing terribly.

And then Boudro came in, and they looked a lot closer to their usual self. And I don't think the entire effect of that is on Boudrobe. I think he helped get those players back to where they should be, because when you're in that kind of mental funk, it is really difficult to get out of if it's the same thing over and over again from a coach that maybe his message isn't hitting the way it used to. Let's talk about Bruce Boudraultz's old team for a second, Dom, and that is the Minnesota Wild, who I think are one of the best.

Listen, we all know your affinity for the Wild, sitting in first place. It's amazing. If you told me at the start of the year, we'd be closing in on Christmas. And it would be Minnesota, Nashville 1-2 in the Central. I'd be like, whoa, what happened here? But this is where we're sitting. I mean, can Minnesota keep this up? And can they potentially even challenge for the president's trophy here?

Can I just talk about a pet peeve of mine? I don't mean to pick on Ian. But Colorado's second in the Central because they have a much higher points percentage than Nashville. I think the three games in hand Nashville has to have one more point. I don't think we can say, like, and this happens all the time. I'm in hockey where people go by points when there's uneven games played, and it always annoys me. And I'm going to call you out Ian, so you never do this again on the athletic hockey show. Yeah.

Because you see it in baseball, they sort by points percentage, and for some reason, NHL.com does not. They sort by points when I think that is a bit, I hate it. So either way, your point still stands because Nashville being that high in general was not something any of expected. we all thought they would be a lot worse. We thought this was the year that they would fall apart and start rebuilding and all that. But yeah, it is very surprising to see both of them ahead of certain other teams in the Central. I mean, it seems like wild fans are really mad at you, Dom. They are the-

They could never be mad at me. I read the comments of the recent power rankings. Those aren't real wild fans. They don't know me. Yeah. Were they third? and everyone's freaking out that they're only the third best team in the league? Yeah.

I understand where they're coming from because the wild were on a huge hot streak and they want the respect they deserve. I thought third was a pretty strong place to put the wild, but the comments on the power rankings are always something because team fans just love their team and want, and want to be rated as high as possible, even though there is the power rankings curse where the minute we give that team the respect they deserve, they fall back to where they should have been all along.

Didn't you finally get on the Islanders wagon this season? Oh, yeah. That was a good time. To be honest, I'm living for this because the Islanders, they're not boring, but the way they play playoff hockey makes me a bit angry sometimes. and just the way, like obviously me and the Islanders have a contentious past, and I think everything came around once I started giving the Islanders a bit more credit as their run went along, but that doesn't mean I can't have some shot in Freud at the

fact their team is finally not looking as good as, I guess their underlying numbers have always suggested they're not that great, and now they're finally reaping what they So you know what? I got to jump ahead to a mailbag question here because it just ties in perfectly for you, Dom. We had a tweet come in from Corey who asked, can you please ask Dom why he hates us Islanders fans? He had to know what projecting us to be good was going to do to our season.

So you need to answer to Corey here for a second, since we're talking Islanders here. Did you purposely do this to them with your, with your preseason ranking for them? No, and it's not, like, I feel like people think that I'm the only one doing this, and there's so many other people, there's Vegas odds makers, and in the past, they didn't believe in the Islanders either, and now I think everyone did.

So I think maybe it was the Islanders always having to prove themselves, always having to prove themselves in this year was the first year. They really didn't, and maybe that had this adverse. reaction to how they actually play, but I really don't think me thinking they would win their division this year was the reason they are at the bottom instead. And it's still early. They had dealt with a lot of COVID stuff. They dealt with injuries.

They are still getting used to a brand new arena where they're one, five, and two. So I think out of all the Eastern teams near the bottom, they're one of the teams that can make a run, but they've also, they've looked pretty awful to start this year so far. Can you maybe take listeners through who maybe don't understand just the process for your power rankings? Because I think a lot of people expect it to just be the NHL standings. And when it's not, they get really upset. I know you guys battle with the blues fans a lot. really the whole comment section is just people being angry about one specific thing. So can you maybe explain how you guys do these power rankings?

Basically, how it goes is in the morning on Thursday, I will sort of do a ranked order of how teams are rated in my model, their actual record in the standings, and then I will put a little bit of weight on their five on five expected goals percentage, just in case there's a team that is really dominating but maybe hasn't gone the results yet. And I weigh my model the most,

but the other two do get some weight. And then from there, I just go by the vibes a bit and put teams up or down a couple spots in case I think maybe it's too high and I don't want to get yelled at this week. And I put that on our Google spreadsheet and then Sean about seven hours later

we'll be like, ah, it's time to rank. And he will go in and he will never put his rankings first. It'll always be my rankings first. He's like, okay, Dom did this. I'll maybe it was like one team higher, one team a little lower. And just not to make it look too obvious, you know? And then he puts his rankings and I assume he agrees with me perfectly

because we're both smart and know exactly what we're doing. But it is funny that he's always second and it's always not too far off. Like I want to argue with him. I want him to be like, I think this team is 12 spots higher. I think you're out of your mind. and it never happens that way. I think we agree a little too much sometimes, but it's okay because it's a good vibe so far.

But that's basically the process that we go through every Thursday. And then for some reason, we do these power rankings Thursday night when there are 12 games on, and there'll be games where the rankings change and literally halfway through writing like, oh, should this team be able higher? And we go, yeah, sure, whatever. And that's actually part of the reason that the Wild were third

it is that I think they won their eighth in a row Thursday night, and I don't think we ended up moving them, because I think Florida and Tampa both also won, and I guess we like them a bit more to start anyways. And that's how the secret sauce gets made. And that's why you ditch us for the American show sometimes now. I don't think I've been on the American show. I think I was supposed to be, and I just didn't.

Oh, did we shame you out of it? No, I would have gone on regardless, I think they big-timey and got a better guest. Well, that's uncomfortable. Yeah, we don't like that show over here. You guys have done that to me too. We don't big-time you. We have.

We've used you as a safety guest. As a safety net. It's fine. I'm not doing anything on Mondays. It's cool. Hey, I do want to ask both of you about something that's kind of cropped up here in the last week in the NHL. And it's kind of reintroduced the debate about hitting and body checking. And you go back to last week and Jacob Truba hit Jujarcaria.

And unfortunately, he had to leave the ice, Caria did on a stretcher. Then on Sunday, we had another scary moment. And that was Av's defenseman Jake McDonald, hit by Ryan Longberg of the Panthers. Another clean hit, not penalized. But now we're reopening the debate here because we're seeing, I think, what are legally termed as clean hits ending with very almost catastrophic results. Do either of you feel like there needs to be a change that the game is so fast that maybe there needs to be a change? Or are you both okay with, hey, if it's a legal hit, the head's not targeted,

it's okay. Unfortunately, there's going to be some things like this that happen. No, it's not okay to see players laying on the ice like that for quote unquote legal hits. that is the end result. They should not be legal. And if the head is not the principal point of the contact, but it's still a large point of contact, I think that is a problem. And we have so much research now on hits to the head

and the adverse effects it has after a player's career is over, during a player's career. There are so many things we don't know about what players deal with in terms of head trauma throughout a season. And if there is a way to minimize that, I think the league should be proactive in that regard. And I think in football, you're not allowed to hit a defenseless receiver. And in hockey, your head's down, it's like, keep your head up.

It's like, that's such a barbaric, archaic way to go about things. Don't hit a guy with his head down because you may literally have him stretchered off the ice. And I have not liked seeing that twice in one week, almost three times, because Jacob Trub at the very next night, it to Nathan McKinnon as well. Yeah. I, and what I also don't like is the argument against it saying, oh, well, if you take this out, you take hitting out of hockey, it's a contact sport.

It's like, no, it's not that black and white. This is one specific gray area where you don't hit a vulnerable player. Yeah, I agree. Like, it's hard to look at these hits and say, and call it a clean hit. Like, a human being just got stretched off the ice. Like, Jude Garcaro was in the hospital, and this is not. the first time that he's been unconscious on a sheet of ice in the last year. He got into a fight with Brett Ritchie here in Calgary last season. And he was, it was scary. Like he was basically

out cold, needed help getting off the ice. He didn't get stretched it off. But like, that's a player with a history of concussions. And it's scary to see them just laying there like that. And it is like barbaric to say, well, oh, well, well, you should have kept his head up or, well, it was a clean hit so nothing we can do. Like that, that man's in the hospital right now feels like our definition of what is clean hit and what's legal hit probably needs to change. Like, incidental contact or the head not being the principal point of contact, I don't, I don't know if that should matter if the end result is a person being in the hospital with potential, you know, long-term issues that we won't know yet.

I just, yeah. And if you're the person replying to a tweet, blaming the person who's laying motionless on the ice for putting their head down for a split second, feels like you need to change your perspective on things because it's just gross, seeing how many people blame the guy who just got put into a hospital or on a stretcher

for what just happened to them. And I think, like Dom said, it's not a blacker way. We can live in the gray area, here. And we can keep hitting and physicality in hockey while removing some of these things. And I do think that it's a product of the game has never been this fast. The players have never been this skilled and the players have never been this big. So you may not have had this 30 or 40 years ago, but we have it now. And we need to, I think we do need to address it. I don't, I don't think

we ever want to get to a point where I think two players stretch it off in the same week should probably raise some red flags for us. I don't want to see a point where it, look, there's a difference between hitting to separate somebody from the puck and then hitting the hurt. And I think that's the line we got to draw. Like the old school Scott Stevens lining them up, that was a different era. And I just don't want to see it. I think there is a way to find the gray area where you keep hitting in the game, but you remove people being stretchered off the ice.

And it's going to be a work in progress. It's going to take some time, but I think we have to change our mentality, I think, as hockey fans of the way that we view the game. And I really appreciate Dom, you using the analogy of in the NFL, when a wide receiver goes over the middle and gets cleaned out, you very rarely will hear somebody, an announcer, a fan, say, well, they should have had their head up. They should have known what was coming. Like, you don't usually hear that defense, right? And I think that's the type of thing we need to sort of maybe change in hockey. Take out the mentality of blaming someone for having their head down, looking to see where the puck might be.

Well, it's the old school mentality in the game, right? And it's not the same, but it goes back to like some of the discourse over the Zegris Milano goal the other day of like, and it wasn't just John Tortorella. I know he took the most heat for it. But, you know, there was people being like, oh, back in the old days, you did that. You'd get your head taken off. It's like, what are we doing here? Like, yeah, skilled play.

Like, let's go murder this guy because he has great hands. Like, that mentality in the sport that the answer to something that pisses you off is to potentially severely injure a player, it's just we need to get rid of that. If you don't have the hands to pull off that goal, you don't have to take his head off because you got embarrassed by a rookie. Let's maybe stop with that. It's bullshit. it. It's way too old school.

And hitting's fine. I'm not saying get rid of hitting and fighting. Do it. It's fine. But let's stop injuring people here. That's not how you grow the game. And I guess just back to these hits to the head, you know, getting away from the Zegro school because I think the discourse around that is silly. I don't want to talk about it anymore. I thought it was all a little bit overblown. But, you know, I think there are people who will bring up, you know, the fact that, say, the Nathan McKinnon hit, it is, you know, he was a hit to the, to the head. You don't want to see that, but I guess the argument would just be like, that's Nathan McKinnon. He's in the slot.

You want to do something to get him out of that position. So that's probably playing devil's advocate there. But then, you know, the hit to Jujar Kara is an open ice. So there's, there's more context to some of these incidents, but I just don't know how we can see. the result and justify it at all. Like Nathan McKinnon's in the slot. You want to move him out of that area. You want to stop him from scoring.

But like look at what happened. So I don't know. I think the thing, sorry to cut you off. I think the thing with Truba is with both those hits, he finishes high. He does not go through the body. He goes up high and finishes so that the head is the final point of contact. I think that is the thing that's bothered me about both those hits is that if he did not do that, I think there would have been not as drastic as a result, maybe.

Yeah, and if you want to stop a guy from scoring, like be in a better defensive position or, yeah, finish through the body, like put your stick in the lane, block the shot. There's, yeah, there's so many other ways. Yeah, there's legal, safe ways to stop Nathan McKinnon from scoring. And again, I keep going on these little asides, but I think we've kind of seen it's not the same because it's not a hit to the head. But, you know, with P.K. Suban, it's what, like, seven, six, seven slew foot this season. And I don't know if that's, like, a player who's just, like, thinking dirty or if it's just a player who's lost a step.

And that's, like, his automatic response to, like, oh, crap, like, this guy's going to probably score me. He's going to get by me. Like, what am I going to do? And you just automatically go to something like that because you're out of position. I'm not justifying that in any case. It's just like there's legal ways that you can stop players from scoring against you without, you know, doing stuff like that. Just be in better position.

Don't hit the guy in the head or slew with them. I don't know. I don't play, though, so who knows? All right, why do we keep Dom around here? Because I did solicit some mailbag questions directed at him and all of us. This one hears from Raphael, who wants to know, Dom, are the ducks for real? Are the Anaheim ducks for real? When will they inevitably go back to being the terrible team we all expected?

I don't think they're going back to the terrible team. We expect I think that they're probably not this good, but going forward, I would expect them to be pretty average because I think a lot of what we've seen this year is for real. They're a above average expected goals team. they are getting elite goaltending, which is not unexpected with John Gibson and net. And I think a lot of credit needs to go to Dallas Aiken's for the system he's implemented to get the most out of a lot of players. The big thing for me is that Troy Terry, Trevor Ziegress, Sunny Milano, Jamie Drysdale have taken massive leaps this season. They're all young players. And they may not stay at this current elite level, but they are playing legitimately well.

I think they're real top line or top pair assets now, which is not something we expected before the season started. So just that jump alone is enough to think this team isn't going back to being a bottom five team. But on top of that, there's all these older players who look a lot closer to the players they used to be. So Ryan Gets Laugh, Renaissance season is playing unreal with Terry. Then on the back end, you have Hampus Linholm, Cam Ballard, Josh Manson all playing

like top four defensemen again. Ricard Raquel has been unreal next to Milano and Ziegress, and that line has been one of the best in the NHL. So all those things are going well for the ducks, and they all seem believable that I don't think they're going back to being the third worst team that many expect them be, and I think a playoff spot is legitimately up for grabs for them. Haley, you watched the ducks in person recently in Anaheim.

You've seen them. You cover that division. Are they a playoff team in the Pacific for you? That I don't know just because, you know, are they going to be in a wildcard spot? Are they going to be one of the teams coming out of that division? I mean, by points percentage, it's, you know, flames are still top of the division. Edmonton has, I mean, they have McDavid and Dry Settle. You assume that they're going to take one of those spots.

And Vegas is going to get Jack Eichol, and they're already starting to play better. So I would kind of assume that those. are the one, two, three teams coming out of that division. And I believe that's what Dom's probabilities have it as. Last time I checked, all three of them had about a 30 to 33 percent chance at winning the division. And they all had like 90 to 93 percent chances at getting into the first round of the playoffs.

So if the ducks make it, I don't think it's as a top three team in the Pacific. But that doesn't mean that this isn't a successful season for them when you just look at where they were and where they were projecting. to be. I think watching them play and they're here next week as well. So next Tuesday, they're coming here. So it'll be the third time the flames play against them. And they play, you know, with a lot of pace. Like they're a really fast team. They play a kind of run and gun style. Their Ds are super active. And they generate a ton of chances. And I mean, their young players are really fun to watch. I mean, that goal aside, Trevor's egress is an exciting rookie. He's,

He's a super skilled player, and you can just tell that he's going to be a big piece of that team for a while. You don't need me to tell you that. I think it's pretty clear to anyone who's seen that team play. So I think they've been impressive. They play a really fun game. And that's, again, like Dom said, it's a credit to the coaching staff. But, you know, I don't think they're top three team in the division, but that doesn't mean that, you know, they're not a good team. And this season won't be a success for the Anaheim Ducks.

So real quick here, as we're talking about Anaheim, the one name we didn't drop there was Troy Terry. Another two-gold performance for him on Sunday, including the overtime winner in a penalty shot. I ask you this, Dom, he's got 16 goals. Can Troy Terry, can he get to 30 goals this season? Do you think he hits the 30-goal plateau? Yeah, I think so. I think even after his start, obviously he would slow down, but I think around 65, 70 points is definitely in play. and the way he scores goals, 30 is definitely going to be a big part of getting there.

So I think he does it, as some at the athletic might say. Or I say he does it. Sorry. I say he does it. Yeah. I like it. All right. Some more questions to get into the mailbag.

Actually, I'd be curious to get Dom's opinion on this because, you know, Haley, we cover the Kachuk brothers, both of us, and me in Ottawa with Brady, you in Calgary with Matthew. Peter wants to know which Kachuk brother is better right now and which Kachuk brother do you think will be better in three years from now.

Dom, since you get to kind of watch both of these guys from afar, which Kachuk brother is better to you right now? Matthew or Brady? I think Brady has played well, but let's be real here. It's still Matthew. He's done it for longer.

He's playing better. His underlying numbers are He's possessing the puck better. And it's nice that Brady's finally getting the production requisite of a top line player. But I don't think he's on Matthew's level just yet. Yeah, I mean, I think Brady's great. I covered the sense, too, before I came here to Calgary. And he's a great player.

I wrote a story when I was still in Ottawa about, you know, yeah, they're not getting a Lexi Lafranier, but like they probably have their cornerstone piece already in Brady could chuck. Like, this is a guy who could, you know, be a captain, which he is and be a, a core piece to a successful team. He has all those intangibles. He's a good player. He's going to be, you know, a solid power forward in this league for a long time.

But, like, he still hasn't scored more than 22 goals in his career. So, like, he has 11 goals in 22 games this year, so he's on pace to have a career year in that respect. But I don't think we can look at Brady and say that he's better than Matthew when you just look at the sample size and the body of work that we're Matthew Kuchuk has. He's on one of the best lines in hockey. He's an elite player by most metrics. He had one down season. Let's not, I don't know. I don't think, I don't think it's a debate right now. And I don't think that should be offensive to say. Brady's great. It shouldn't. I have, I just checked right now and I have Matthew worth 1.5 wins and Brady worth 0.7. So Brady's on pace to be a top line forward at 2.4 wins, but Matthew's playing elite right now.

Just to follow up on that, Chris has a question. I think more kind of specifically for you, Dom, just following up on that. Chris says, hey, I'm interested in your opinion on the Ottawa Senate's top line, becoming a legitimate top line at playoff time. I'm very interested in Dom's opinion since he's the premier numbers guy around here.

I feel like Josh Norris could maybe turn into like a Bergeron-O-Reilly type. Love your opinion on that. That is from Chris. So Chris wants to know Brady Kachuk and Josh Norris and Drake Batherson. could they be a legitimate number one line down the road, Dom? I think so, but it's tricky. Right now I have them ranked as an average top line,

and I think that despite the points, there's still a ways to go in terms of influencing play at five-on-five. Batherson has been amazing. He's been the best player on the line. He's the guy I'd be most optimistic about, but a guy like Josh Norris, I mean, my model likes him of fair. bit, but I've talked to other people in the NHL who have access to better data and who have

their own models. And they have multiple times asked me what the deal is with Josh Norris, why I do his public stuff like him so much because they don't see that much with him. So I don't know if a Bergeron type is a bit too high of a ceiling for him, but there might be a thing where he's not as good as he seems, according to at least people. in the NHL who have access to to better stuff than I do. And I think what we always, at least what I was always told when I was still covering the team and obviously projecting a prospect and analyzing what he is now that he's in the

NHL is different. But what I had always been told from sources and people on the record, I mean, Troy Mann, the coach in Belleville, you know, I think everyone wants to say like, you know, sky's the limit for this guy if he keeps on improving and keep working. But I think most people would have said that he, on a contending team, Josh Norris is a second line center. Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. Okay, got another question here from Michael who wants to know, who do you think the biggest omission ever from an Olympic team or a national team? So Michael is asking, who do you think is the biggest omission ever?

And if you guys want to maybe play, Dom, I know you've done some work in terms of maybe even trying to project who might make, you know, U.S. and Canada roster. So maybe if you want to even look ahead and say, like, I have a feeling this guy's going to be an omission. We can take this question any way that we want. You know the one I'm going to say, though, for the biggest omission ever? I feel like Stephen Stamcoe's getting left off the team in Vancouver in 2010 was big.

But remember, Stephen scored 50 goals that year and was off the Olympic team. And ever since then, he's had this terrible luck when it comes to the Olympics because 2014, he broke his leg just before the Olympics and wasn't able to go and then 2018 again. I think he was banged up. Or sorry, no, 2018 was when the NHLers skipped the Olympics. And now this year, it feels like he might be a bubble guy. I don't know.

I think he's on my team. He'd be on my team, but I don't know if he's a lock. But I've always thought that, man, the guy scored 50 goals in his season and he didn't make the Olympic team. So I've always been a guy that thought Stamco should have been on the 2010 team. But I don't know what, if either of you have an answer in terms of biggest snobank. not ever from a national team. I mean, on the Stamco's conversation, wasn't he basically left off for Chris Kunitz? I think I was in 2014. But no, he broke his leg. No, Koonitz was 2010. Koonitz was 2014, wasn't it?

I think it was 2014. No, that was the golden goal. No, 2010 was the golden goal. I think 2010 was the golden goal. I think 2010, the controversial one at the time was Bergeron. Oh, right. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Kunits was 2014. Stamcoast didn't have a chance in 2014 because he broke his leg. Yeah. Just before the Olympics. But 2010, he was like this. Even Crosby getting left off in 06 was always a bit about-

That's the one I was thinking for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that there was like a lot of, and yeah, Koonis was 2014, my bad. Not that I needed to confirm for you guys. Yeah, I was going to say Crosby being left off that roster. That was, wasn't that pretty controversial at the time? Everyone was like, what the heck happened here?

How can you leave this guy off? He was on the taxi squad. Remember the taxi squad? What did you say, Tom? That candidate team got what they deserved. They got embarrassed in the Olympics because they built this archaic team and then they learned their lesson for 2010. 2014, I think the biggest snub I can remember was Chris Kunitz for Klojuru.

I think Closier was, I mean, the baton was passed as the best playing in the league. And there he was not on the Olympic team. Yeah, you're right. And I think in 2006, they took Todd Bertuzi, didn't they? Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Yeah.

They took Todd Bertuzi in 2006 and didn't take Sid. Wasn't Gretzky one of the ones making some of those decisions? Isn't that why a lot of people were really mad? It's just like, what is Wayne doing? You're going to leave Crosby home. Yeah. Whoops. All right.

One more, let me go. One more question from the mailbag here. Michael wants to know what is your first. favorite Ben and Jerry's ice cream flavor? Cherry Garcia. Yeah, it's got to be Cherry Garcia, isn't it? The dairy, well, it's the almond milk, Cherry Garcia. It's the dairy-free one.

Is that a cherry ice cream? Because I think the name is better than the actual ice cream there. Yeah, it's like vanilla. It's vanilla with little chocolate chunks and cherries. I just hate cherries. I hate cherries in general, so that one does not do it for me. I'm going with a classic chocolate chip cookie dough because that's just my favorite for every ice cream ever. There's a really good ice cream place down the street for me.

It's called Made by Marcus. And there's this rivalry between the two ice cream places. A lot of people think Made by Marcus is the best. A lot of people think Village is the best. And I still haven't gone to Village because it's not like right down the street. But Bono loves Made by Marcus. When we walk by, he like sits down out front and he won't leave. because he knows they give little pup cups,

so they'll give dogs like a little bit of soft serve ice cream, and he loves it. So Bono's answer to this question is not Ben and Jerry's, but it's the made by Marcus, vanilla soft serve. Bono is my dog for anyone listening. Yeah, it's good to know you're going to dinner, not alone in Calgary. Yeah, it's fine.

Because you got Bono. I go places with my dog. Yeah, everyone loves Bono. It's really cold here now. So like everyone, I feel like anyone's driving by or walking by just sees me like carrying my dog home all the time. Because it's so cold, he'll just sit and be like, nope, I'm done. It's too cold.

So we keep our walks around the block now. All right. You know what, Haley? We were only going to have Dom for like part of the show. Let's just have them stick around for the whole thing. This has been fantastic. The hour has flown by. So Dom, we're going to invite you in for a little multiple choice madness to wrap up

the show like we always do on Monday. So I got three questions. We got multiple options for each of them. Here we go. Number one. Which comment from John Tortorella bothered you more from his time as an ESPN studio analyst so far this season? Is it A, him saying he wasn't sure if Trevor Zegris's crazy assist was, quote, good

for the game or B, Torch saying that Connor McDavid needs to just, quote, shut up about not getting penalty calls from refs. Tom, if you had to pick one that kind of irked you a little bit more, was it Zegris about not being good for the game or McDavid maybe needing to zip it? Which one bothered you more from Torts? They're both incredibly terrible. If there is a top two or bottom two quotes in this league from anyone, I think Torts has a good chance to be both of them with those.

And they're both come from the same place, which is Torts deciding what's good for the game when he is historically been what's bad for the game. I can't remember the last watchable torterello team. The Columbus Blue Jacket's Tordella experience was awful. The way he especially played in the playoffs and towing the line of what is legal and what's not. It's no surprise that he would tell McDavid to just shut up and play through penalties when that's pretty much how he coached his teams to play is air on that line of the refs aren't going to call it. But with that in mind, I still think it's the Zegra's quote because it is,

one of the most fun things that's happened in the NHL in a long time. You have Michael B. Jordan posting on social media about hockey. And we're letting a dinosaur like Torrell say dictate what's good or back from the game. When I don't think I've seen the NHL get as much exposure in a while, then that play. And there needs to be more of those plays. Yeah, I'm probably going to go with the McDavid one just, and I think they're both bad. I agree with Dom. I thought the Zegro's one's silly.

because it is good for the game. It's really fun. But like I just, I thought it was part of a conversation where, like, this is, you know, a studio show. They're debating stuff. Whatever. Like he's, and he wasn't like, you know, this wasn't like a Stephen A. Smith yelling or screaming at, screaming at Cloud. You could say, he's not saying like, get this out of the game. It's terrible. He, he said multiple times. It was fun. It was skilled. The fact that Sonny Milano even did that while he's screaming the Michigan, screaming Michigan. and is impressive, it's fun, it's skilled. Like, he said it a bunch of times. So he obviously agrees it's good for the game. And then he was like, but I just wonder if it's, he agreed that it was fun and skill. But he's like, but I just wonder if it's good because you want to play hard and fast. And there's so many coaches in the NHL if you went and asked them, like, you know, what's, what's going to win the Stanley Cup?

They're going to say playing hard and fast. So I disagreed. I think it's good for the game. But I didn't think that take was as crazy as a lot of people. made it out to be, I think, telling Connor McDavid to shut up is stupid. And then McDavid was asked about the penalties the other day. And he even said, like, well, I'm supposed to shut up about this. So I'm not going to comment. So it's just like these quotes are either telling a player to like stop playing with skill and fun or telling the best player in the world to shut up. And now

he's like even more quiet and says even less in a press conference. I just, So I think the McDavid one's worse. They're both bad, but the McDavid one is worse, especially when you see McDavid being, I'm not going to say boring, but saying even less in a media conference. Yeah. All right.

Next question here. Multiple choice badness here. There's eight teams currently holding down playoff spots in the east as follows. Florida, Toronto, Tampa, Washington, Carolina, the Rangers, Pittsburgh, and Boston. My question is, It's not even Christmas, but have we locked down the eight teams?

Are the eight teams in the east all locked in? Or does one of maybe, maybe Detroit's kind of punched above their weight? Do they hang around? Do the Islanders rise up, Philly? So I ask you this. Are we locked in with the eight teams right now? Or is there going to be at least one change? Yes or no.

Dom, are we locked in? The combined chances of Detroit, Ottawa, Montreal, Buffalo, the Islanders, Philly, the Devils, and the Blue. jackets is 25% combined. Combined. The lowest team right now is the Rangers at 89% and the other seven are all above 94.

I think this is pretty close to Lockton. Man. Have we ever seen, like have we ever seen this before before Christmas where basically eight teams have a 90% chance of making the playoffs? Not that I've seen in my time doing it and that doesn't mean a team can't go to run. I again do believe the Islanders now that no one believes in them will start doing things worthwhile. But it's a very, it's going to be a very tough road ahead for them. I agree. We locked in? We locked in in the East? Yes. I have nothing of value to add. I'm just,

I agree. That's going to be the clip for our promo for the show. I have nothing of value to add. I mean, people already know it. I read the comments. I see the tweets. I know what you guys think of me. Well, what am I supposed to say? Yeah. Yeah, that's queen.

You analyze that exactly correct, Dom. You are freaking smart. You are so great. Oh, my God, thank you. I think we're locked in. I'm glad you're here. I couldn't have said any of that better myself. Yeah, I just, I don't see, like the islanders,

There's just too much, that would have been my pick, but there's just too much real estate to make up, right? Like at this stage of the game? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. The teams that are in have enough cushion to continue to be in, barring injury or crazy, you know, implosion. Yeah, this is going to break.

I think the Flyers have had an 11-year, nine or 10 or 11-year run of alternating in the playoffs, out of the playoffs, in the playoffs, out of the playoffs. This would be the first time they miss in back-to-back ears. But I just don't see them bouncing back here either, right? Like so. Yeah. I thought it was really funny this summer that the Flyers and the Flames were in pretty

similar positions in terms of like things aren't working. We've both been middle of pack in the playoffs, out of the playoffs, going to be good, going to be bad. And then the flames kind of stood pat mostly because a lot of their players didn't have proper trade value. And the Flyers went and made all these changes. they did completely different things and both teams are going in completely different directions

and I thought it was really funny. I saw a tweet from Charlie O'Connor, our lovely Flyers writer in the summer, saying like, what are the flames doing? Aren't they supposed to be making changes? And then the Flyers went and made all these changes and they're still bad. I think it hurts that their biggest change

was getting Ryan Ellis, who has played like five games. And their second biggest change was targeting Rasmus Mr. Ristelainen. Good job, everybody. Yeah. All right.

One last question for you in multiple choice madness here on this Monday. Bobby Orr, who is, I think, certainly in the conversation to be the greatest hockey player of all time,

has apparently joined social media on the weekend, creating a Twitter account. Are either of you are going to sauce Bobby Orr a follow here? Yes or no. Would you follow Bobby Orr on Twitter?

Haley. I mean, has he tweeted anything yet? Like, was it funny? He's tweeted out a couple things. He tweeted out earlier on Monday. Have a great week, exclamation mark. On Sunday, he said, I hope everyone had a great Sunday, exclamation mark. So this could be like the Magic Johnson's Twitter account.

It's just like the most vanilla account of all time. This is where we might be headed with Bobby Orr. Yeah, I mean, probably. Not. Magic Johnson isn't a Trump supporter, so I don't think that's helpful. Yeah, there's that angle, too. Do either of you follow, like, Wayne Gretzky has an official Twitter account. Like, do either of you follow Wayne Gretzky's account?

I follow this old man who tweets pictures of the vegetables. He grows in his garden, and it's really cute. Does he also say, have a good Sunday? Yeah. Yeah, it's just like happy. So add some value. Add some vegetables, Bobby Orr. Just like happy weekend, everyone.

Like, here's this carrot that we grew for the last few months. And it's like this huge carrot. And it's really cute. I forget what his name is. But it's like the best Twitter account. But no, I don't follow Bobby Orr or Wayne Gretzky. I follow the cute old guy with his garden because it's like freaking awesome. I also follow an account called Chunky Cats.

As you can imagine, it's just pictures of chunky cats. Chunky cats. Yeah. With no context. It's great. I follow Dom. Not Wayne Gretzky. Okay.

Sounds like a hard pass on Bobby Orr. Yeah, I mean, no. For both of you. No. And for me to. I need some value. Yeah. I'm not seeing it.

The early tweets are not, they're not looking that good. I'm not going to have a good Sunday just because Bobby Orr told me to have a good Sunday. I'm probably going to be miserable regardless. Yeah. All right, listen, we'll leave it there. By the way, real quick, Haley, there's no NHL games tonight.

On Monday night, no hockey games. There was one schedule. Chicago was supposed to host Calgary. That has been postponed due to a COVID outbreak. Is there anything you can tell our listeners here before we sign off just in terms of, like, what you know about the number of players or in terms of like, are more games in danger of being wiped off later this week for the Calgary Flames? Yeah, I mean, there's nothing new other than what the league and the first.

flames have put out there. So the flames posted by PR, all of the players who are in protocol. So there's six players and one member of the training staff who are in COVID protocol right now. So the team is going to be the whole facility. Everything is shut down until the 16th. The games are going to be postponed. So they have Chicago, Nashville, and I believe Toronto are all postponed. So those three games. I think we might. might end up seeing, I don't know if one of those games are going to get bumped up. Like, I assume that the flames are going to be playing this weekend. I think they'll end up playing shorthanded over the weekend, barring, you know,

another six players or something going into protocol. And I don't even want to speculate like that. I think this is all, you know, an exercise of guessing. I think, you know, all we really know right now is that there's six players in protocol, the players who are confirmed positive are going to be in quarantine for 10 days because the team did not travel. So the fact that they were here in Canada when they all tested positive as 10 days versus 14 days at quarantine if they had gone to Chicago last night, which they were scheduled to, they did not travel to Chicago and all these games have been postponed through until the 16th.

So everything else is just speculation and guessing. And I don't know if it's responsible. to do that. So we're kind of just going to wait and see there'll be more testing to see if anyone else goes into protocol, I'm sure. But right now it's still the six players, which include Elias Linholm, Andrew Mangupani, Krista Tanov, Nikita Zedorov, Brad Richardson. And forgive me, I don't have all six, but then there's a member of the training staff as well. So we'll wait, we'll wait and see if any more come and what happens in the coming days here. All right. Listen, appreciate that update. And Dom, love the fact that you hung around here for the full pod.

So thanks for doing this. And listen, man, probably won't get you before Christmas, so happy holidays. And we really do all of your contributions in 2021. I think you are the clubhouse leader in guest appearances on the Monday edition. Right, Haley?

Of the athletic hockey show, Dom. Dom is the clubhouse leader by a wide margin. At least eight, nine. And he's so smart. We have him on so he can talk and I can just say, yeah. Yeah. For sure. Happy to be here, as all.

always. Awesome. Hey, listen, thanks for this, and thanks everybody for listening to this latest edition of The Athletic Hockey Show. I want to remind you that you can subscribe to the Athletic Audio Plus on Apple Podcasts. Get all the bonus content from our entire network. You can start with a 30-day free trial. That is just 99 cents a month after that.

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