The Athletic Hockey Show - Was Whitecloud’s hit on Knies a product of poor officiating?

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

Jesse Granger and Michael Russo welcome NHL insider Elliotte Friedman of Hockey Night in Canada and 32 Thoughts to discuss the rumored cap escalation in the NHL, injury report transparency, why Jim Montgomery was fired and the lack of center ice depth in the NHL. Plus the guys talk about Kirill Kaprizov as a legitimate Hart Trophy candidate, and the Zach Whitecloud hit on Matthew Knies, in a very physical game on Wednesday night in Toronto.Hosts: Jesse Granger and Michael RussoWith: Elliotte FriedmanExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. So everybody and welcome to another episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. We've got a little bit of a throwback episode today. Going back to the old Wednesday roundtable edition, we're going to have a reunion with myself and Michael Rousseau. We're doing it on a Thursday. Michael in Edmonton, how's it going? I hope whoever hosts a show regularly knows that every show that you and I on gets canceled.

Or at least every show I'm on gets canceled. So hopefully this isn't the last Thursday, athletic hockey show. Well, best of luck to Haley Salvia and Sean Jantilly, who we're filling in for. Oh, yeah, they're at the big summit. We're going to, yeah, we got some stuff to talk about. We're also going to bring in our friend Elliot Friedman from Hockey Night in Canada, 32 thoughts and Rogers Sportsnet. He's going to stop by and we're going to talk some NHL insider stuff. But before that, Michael and I are going to talk about the old school hockey game that I watched last night between the Golden Knights and Maple Leafs that got a little out of hand after some missed calls.

and we're going to talk some Minnesota hockey, why Kapril Kapri Sov is a legitimate heart contender and maybe where he's elevated this game. But let's start with that game in Toronto last night. Golden Knights, Maple Leafs, it was a big battle, defensive battle, not a lot of scoring chances either way. And it ended up becoming kind of a slug fest at the end, lots of scrums after every whistle, after two big hits, one each way. Both teams thought they were wronged by officiating. We're going to kind of talk about it a little bit. So it started late in the first period, Matthew, or sorry, Nikita Grabenkin with a big hit on Shea Theodore.

And I thought it was pretty standard boarding call. Theodore did kind of turn, but I thought Grbenkin hit Theodore right in his numbers in the back. Face into the glass. Theodore was bleeding from his forehead, but there was no call on the play. The teams go to intermission. They come back and Zach Whitecloud lands a huge hit in the neutral zone on Matthew nyes that ended up knocking nyes down. It ended up being a two-minute penalty for roughing for theater after a review. They called it a major on the ice. They reviewed it. They called it a two-minute

minor for roughing. The Maple Leafs actually got a four-minute for kind of initiating the fight afterwards. So Vegas actually ended up getting a power play out of the situation. And that did not make the Maple Leafs happy. I thought that both calls probably should have been penalties. but I want to hear your take, Rousseau, because I think most people were on the side of that white clouds should have been a major. Why did you think that it was the right call to just give him that two-minute minor? I mean, I think the only reason why I thought the right call, not that it's right or wrong, is that this has been the history of the league that I've covered is that they allow for, they allow for unavoidable head contact on body checks that initiate, that it, when the point of initial contact is not the head. And I do think on this case, you know, the initial point of contact is the chest or right shoulder of Matthews Nyes. Feel bad for Nyes.

I get why, first of all, you know, I always take away the fans on either side because everybody always looks at it in their own lens. I mean, you know, I guarantee you that Toronto fans didn't think that the Ryan Reeves, well, maybe Toronto fans did because they don't love Reeves. But, you know, everybody always looks at that. So I always take that emotion out of it. When you see Matthew Nyes, his head hit the ice and he is clearly injured for a player that's as good as this kid is, I get why there's emotion. It's an awful situation. On the hit, though, I don't think he picks the head. To your point, though, that I wasn't, because I didn't watch the entire game because I went to the Edmonton Oil Kings, Victoria Royals game last night.

You know, I didn't realize that this could have been a retaliation of what happened in the first period with the boarding that you say that Grubank. and got away with. But I just think on that hit, that has never been since video review, a play that would be considered a major. I thought maybe they would give him a legal check to the head. But again, technically, the head wasn't the initial point of contact. I think when you go frame by frame. It happens bang, bang.

It's violent. But I just think in that case, this has long been the NHL. And I think it was confirmed by the fact that they, one, rescinded the penalty, and two, it's clear that he's going to face no supplemental discipline today. So, you know, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying in the context of what the NHL rules are, that's not a major penalty. I think it's a clean body check. It sucks that he got hurt the way that he did.

In maybe one day we go to a league where if you hit the head at any point, you know, it's a penalty. I think the science is getting to the point that maybe we should start to consider that. but in the context of the way that the league runs and the Department of Player's Safety, that's considered a clean body check. That's certainly fair. And I'll start by saying, I thought it was a major just because I thought, I thought the head was the initial contact. But I also think that Nyes was kind of bending his knees.

Like he was like, White Cloud was standing tall. And he was, to me, the debate is, did White Cloud launch into him? Because White Cloud did off of his feet. Like he left his feet, but it was kind of on the follow through. He also had the elbow. I come through again on the follow through. None of it was on the initial hit. Yeah.

I will say that Zach White Cloud was not head hunting. I've covered Zach White Cloud his entire career. He's the nicest kid in the NHL. He was sticking up for Shea Theodore, his teammate. I'm not in Toronto. I didn't speak to him, but I know that that's what he was doing. And he was intending to make a clean hit. And they ended up only calling it a rough and call.

So I guess the referees agreed with him that it was a clean hit. And actually, I don't think that they call, I think they called the rough and call after the hit. I think it was in, yeah, like, I think the, the rough thing was just after the scrum. It wasn't on the hit at all. Like, they were sent it completely. Yep, you're right about that. So, so big hit. And then the game ended up being wild. Toronto ended up winning three nothing with an empty netter at the end. But Joseph Wall was phenomenal on one end. Aiden Hill, I thought, played really good on the other. It was just an old school hockey game. The refs not call that

initial boarding on theater kind of got both teams in the, mindset of, well, we'll handle the officiating ourselves tonight. And it just, it just felt like we were playing hockey a decade earlier than we were. Yeah. And I concur with you on White Cloud. I've interviewed him before during the Stanley Cup final a couple years ago. Plus, he's, you know, he's not from Minnesota, but he went to a Minnesota school. So he's got to be a really nice guy. As is Matthew Nyes, who, by the way, I know really well. I, I chat with him and his dad for a big story I did a couple years ago before his year that he signed with the Leafs eventually after that year. And I love the kid. And it's, you know, that's what I'm

worried about is just how, how badly is he hurt because he is just such a great, great hockey player. But on the play, I mean, you know, I just think that, you know, unfortunately, sometimes in this game, and we've seen that for the history of time and Leafs fans, if they put their hand on a Bible, we'll admit it. I mean, you know, we've seen it all the time where you think a guy is leaving his feet, but the NHL allows, if as long as his feet is on the ice, on the hit, it's just going to, you know, physics, it's going to come up. And same thing with, I thought his elbow was tucked. I don't think he was headhunting.

I think he was trying to lay a big hit maybe for the context of what you were saying, where he felt like, all right, I'm going to keep it clean, but I'm going to, I'm going to, we're not going to accept our guy and Che Theodore, our star defenseman getting boarded the way that he did. And we're going to play a hard-nosed game. I'm sure that was challenged by Bruce Cassidy in between periods. And unfortunately, it just, it's a hit that went haywire in today's game. And, you know, this is stuff that we don't see anymore.

Like, like, even on the Ryan Reeves play with Darnel Nurse the other day, I'm looking at everybody going crazy on Twitter, like, we got to get this stuff out of the game. This is stuff we don't see anymore. Like, you know, give the league credit for one thing. They have the Rafi Torres days and all that crap is gone. Like, they have done with the rule, with the legal check to the head rule, they have done an incredible job of mostly legislate. hitting head hits out. This is not a Scott Stevens League anymore. And so a lot of times when the

Ryan Reeves stuff happens, it looks like, oh my God, this is such a violent game. This is not the UFC. This stuff happens monthly, maybe, where that type of hit happens. And so I think the league has done a really good job. This is unfortunately, I think, was just a, you know, a player going full steamed. He kind of got shielded to by a player where he probably doesn't see White Cloud coming. White Cloud sees him coming and does what used to happen. And that's where you take a guy out. How many times do we see guys coming through the neutral zones or coming over the blue line.

It happened the other night in my St. Louis Minnesota game where I thought Carol Caprisop was going to get smoked like 25 times. He's coming through the middle of the ice and guys are just peeling off on hits. We just don't see that white cloud hit anymore. And that's why people, I think, just lose their minds over it. But in the end, I think as unfortunate as the result was, it was probably in today's context of the rules the right call to rescind. I think you're selling you on this.

I think I might agree with you by the end of this. Lastly on that, Nikita Grubankin, we got introduced to him last night. What a player. What a kid. I was very impressed with him during the game. And if you haven't, for all the listeners out there, if you haven't seen the post game interview with Nikita Grubankin, a forecheck, back check, paycheck.

The kid is hilarious. I hope he sticks around. I hope he's good because he seems fun for the league. But let's get to our next topic before we bring in Elliot Friedman. You cover, you mentioned him, Karel Kaprisov, man, is he playing some good hockey this year? He's been good since he's been in the NHL. I feel like he's taking it to another level. What are you seeing?

The numbers are obviously through the roof right now. Yeah, I mean, you know, the majority of the wild offense goes through him. He's been excellent this year. He has got multi-point games in nine of his last 10 road games and a 10-game road point street coming into tonight's game in Edmonton. second in the league in scoring only because Nathan McKinn's been on this tour in pace as well. I think if the Wilde make the playoffs, he's got to be an early heart favorite or a heart contender. I think there's a lot of great players right now in the league, a lot of guys that are playing awesome.

But for the writers out there that pick the Wilde to finish seventh or eighth in the central, if they make the playoffs and you don't pick Carol Caprice, if you're being hypocrites. Because, you know, everybody seemed to get tired of this team and thought they would be this year. Long way to go, but they've been the best road team in the league. You know, they've been just unbelievable on the road, 7-1 and 2, and a lot of it's because of Carill. You know, he's just, he's a one-man show right now. He gets, you know, and he's works so hard in his defensive end as well. He's just a total complete package in a year where the wilder and have to try to extend him starting July 1. So, yeah, he's been, he's been

tremendous in the league where there's just been a lot of great, great play from a lot of players right now. Yeah, and you know, I'm going to go to the goalie direction with this, but just thinking about Minnesota and how they've kind of exceeded expectations, man, Philip Gustafson, when he's on, he, I've been watching him the last couple games, and he is so technically proficient. Like, he just, a goalie coach's dream. He's in the right positions. He's always on angle. He makes it look so easy because he's big, he's calm, he's always square to the puck. He's got his correct depth. And man, does he make it look easy? He's in the right. the pucks just hit him. It's so interesting that last year, because two years ago,

especially at the end of the year, you couldn't score on the guy. He was the hottest goalie in the NHL. We thought, oh my gosh, is this guy going to become their goalie of the future? Then last year he has the down year. And now this year, he looks back to that level of like, when he's, like I said, when he's on, he's so hard to score. How do you view him in the context of like, Flurry is obviously on his way out? Walsstead is the stud coming in. Like, where do you view Gustafin in the grand scheme of Minnesota's plans? because he's making it a lot harder to just hand the torch to Walshstead than we thought it was going to be. Yeah, especially since it's been terrible in the minors so far this year.

He's got like 4-6-4 goals against and a 8-64, something crazy. I mean, to me, the one thing that I think even Bill Guerrind forgot is that this kid's 26 years old, and he's played two full years in the NHL. One was impeccable, and the other was bad. So to me, I rather bet on the guy that the impeccable season was more accurate. it and keep them. And then next year you have maybe Augustus and Volstet tandem. And then you make your decision.

And maybe Volsett's the guy that uses a huge trade ship. Because again, he's only 26. The Wilde have been unbelievable defensively this year. Lead the league in five on five goals against. Lead the league in five and five goals against per game. In terms of expected goals against lowest in the NHL. So he has to make the saves that he has to make. there's times in the games where he settled things down,

but he hasn't had to make like 40 saves games at all. He's pretty much seeing 25 to 28. But when he needs to be good, he's great. The first two minutes in St. Louis the other night, he probably faced five great A's. But his shutout against Montreal, according to all that, stat sites, the wild didn't give up a high danger chance in a game where they lost Eric Seneck and Zuccarello,

a shift apart in the first period. So he's been unbelievable. I did a big story on him today. I could have used your help, by the way, because he gave me a lot of technical stuff that you talked about, where last year when he really did a lot of self-reflection and looked at a lot of the bad goals he gave up, he found that he was like three feet outside the crease

on when guys were coming in over the blue line. He just wasn't square to shooters. And this year he's played a lot more conservative. He's deeper in his net. He doesn't come out. And that's something that Freddie Shabbat, their goalie coaches, has to ball their goalies is to be much more conservative this year and just, you know, trust your players.

The other thing he talked about is that last year he had no trust in his team. teammates because it was such a mishmash of different players because they were so injury riddled. And this year, they're so connected and so far they've been so really good. And then the other thing that's obvious just looking at him is he came in back in incredible shape. They demanded him to lose weight this offseason. They sent their strength and conditioning coach over to Sweden to, you know, confiscate the meatballs. And he came back and he looked. I mean, he showed up first day camp.

I looked at his face. I couldn't believe this is the same guy we saw three months earlier. He looked like 10 years younger. Not that he was like out of shape, but he just wasn't in impactful shape. And right now he is. So those are the reasons why he's been this good this year. I mean, you know, in a league again where we're seeing kind of Hellibuck play excellent and Stolars and Dostle. And there's just been so many great goleys.

Ottinger, we watched him the other night. He was unbelievable against the wild. So it's pretty cool seeing, you know, how well a lot of these guys that maybe had down years last year of playing. For sure. It's been fun to watch and the wild have been fun to watch because of heating caprice off. All right. Let's head for a break and we'll come back with Ellie Friedman. All right.

Now we're back and we're joined by NHL Insider Elliott Friedman. How's it going, Elliot? It's good, Jesse. Good to hear you guys before. Mike, I got to tell you, someone took my meatballs away. I wouldn't play. I just go on strike. So I'm up in Edmonton and I'll tell you the best part of being in Edmonton is that all these commercials that you filmed in Vegas when we were there.

I have never seen. So I never, the breaking of the boss with Crosby and my buddies are killing me over that. Like they are tearing me in half over those things. And sports that guy said that like I said, if I ad lib, I'm really good at it, but they say delivering scripted lines,

I am the worst actor at the network. That's what they say. Oh, it was funny. The last time I was watching the Kings game against the playing. Buffalo. Buffalo, yeah, man, that was a for a burger. But every commercial break was like an Elliot Friedman Sportsnet commercial.

You know, Mike, I got to say, like, I'm sheepish about it. I don't like it. But like some people complain that there are places they work at and never promote them. I can never complain about that at Sportsnet. We're everywhere. Well, you are the mad genius because you somehow got Philip Peronick to be nice in a in Prague. And I got to hang out with you that night.

You told me how you did it. But I'll tell you what, I sat down with him the next day, and he's not a fan of the media. He could not have been colder. He said it in the interview. But, you know, it's just like I, like, we were lucky. He was, he, you know, honestly guys like Jesse and Mike, like that's the power of hockey night in Canada.

That's not me. That's hockey night. That's, that's a player on an important team for us. Like when Vancouver's good, our ratings like, they go up. And he, you know, he knew it was that audience. He knew it was that network. And he played a little bit of ball for us. So that I appreciate it.

I know he doesn't like it. Yeah. Well, speaking of disagreeing with the players, getting along with the players, I wanted to ask Elliot about the, so we had a question in our anonymous player pulled the athletic, but we asked all the players. should the NHL be more transparent with injuries? And their answers, at least the answers that I got were exactly what you'd expect. No way.

These players do not think that that should be the case. But as sports gambling becomes more a part of the NHL, and as the NHL tries to match leagues like the NFL and their injury transparency, it just feels like that's the direction we're going. What's your opinion on the NHL's injury transparency and maybe where it should be going? You know, Jesse, it's funny. I referenced your poll. I actually wrote about this today, and I referenced your poll in an interview I did yesterday with the NHL on Sirius.

And I don't think there is an issue right now that the players and the fan slash media are more apart on than this. And I will tell you, Jesse, like the biggest, I don't even know if fights is the right word. I would say this, the angriest players have gotten at me in the last year is when I've felt the need to poke around on injuries. And I'm with you on the gambling. Like, I'm not a big gambler. You know, I don't have an account, but I bet with friends. Like I'm in two fantasy football pools and I bet with friends. And I feel that if you're taking money from people or asking for money from people, you should be as transparent as you can.

can be. The thing about the players is their answers range from. It's none of your frequent business, which I get on some level because if I had something I don't, like when I had COVID, I wasn't broadcasting it all over the place and I understand how people wanted to keep that private. And I also, and they also feel like we get targeted and which they do. Like anybody who says that players don't target injuries is just lying. The one thing I always tell them, Jesse, where they get into trouble is the bigger the star and the longer the injury, that's where I find everybody has to do a better job at this. And I've had two situations in the last year where the players reacted extremely negatively

and they were both in those situations. And I was working on this Matthews story this week like everybody else was. And I got to tell you, Jesse, like the players are never going to side with fans and media on this one. It is just not happening. And I think we just have to understand that this is a topic that they feel incredibly strongly about, as your poll showed, and we're probably not going to win this argument. And on some level, I do understand it. Yeah, I mean, just look at two years ago when Leon Drys Idol had the ankle injury and that

playoff run, everybody was slashing a minute. And I got the quote, it's not a player from a, the quote is a player from a team that I don't cover, team that we don't cover at the athletic. But that quote from a player that basically said that, I'll be honest, you know, like in the regular season, I don't care, but in the playoffs, I do target. And I think that we have to, like, that was, he admitted it.

And this is a well-known player. I wouldn't too. Like, hey, it's you or me for the Stanley Cup. Yeah. I get it. I get it. Yeah. Jim Montgomery, obviously out in Boston,

You know, it is amazing. The 2023 Jack Adams finalists all gone in Dave Haxthall and Lindy Robb and and Jim Montgomery, he almost lost like, I mean, no regular season games it felt like in Boston during his tenure year there. It just shows you that you are hired to be fired. You just knew something was coming the other night when he gets into it again with Bradmore Shan on the bench. It just became, to me, you know, you just couldn't deal with this anymore. or what were the big reasons behind the firing? And do you worry, do you wonder now who's next?

I mean, you know, I'm watching that national game yesterday and when Andrew Burnett comes out and they had the mishap of the line. Yeah, that was tough. And whatever the reasons for it happening, like this is the type of stuff he cannot afford right now. You know, what do you think's next coming down the pike? You know, it was funny. Somebody said to me last night, Joey Kenworthy sent me a note saying,

I think the last coach to do that was Craig Barrow. And I go, Joey, you ask him. Yeah, yeah. I bring that out. It happened, Bruce Boudreau the year he was fired in Pittsburgh. Same thing. They had a, they had a plate commanded, you know. That's right.

You know, I mean, yeah. I mean, it's a, first of all with Montgomery, you know, I don't know if we'll ever get the full story here. But, you know, we, I reported a couple days ago that they'd talked to him about an extension and it went off the rails somehow. It just didn't happen. And when you confirmed that yesterday, I really do wonder, Mike. if that was as much about Montgomery as it was about the Bruins. That, like, watching them this year, like that game Monday night, you couldn't watch the end of that game and not think, oh boy, like,

this is a game that gets a coach fired. Like, yeah. And to be honest, I'm really, I think Montgomery will be back. I think it's a matter of how quickly he wants to be back. And I will tell you, I've had people who know better than I do who say that this was as much about Montgomery not being sure about the future in Boston as it was the Bruins not being sure about Montgomery. Like there, people are not convinced he thought it was the right long term fit for him.

And so I'm curious to see where that goes because I think he will get another job. And maybe that's the reason that the extension didn't happen. And so we'll see what happens there. But yeah, I mean, look, it's, you look at Nashville. You know, you look at Detroit. you look at some other situations and I don't like to see people get fired but you do see situations around the league

where you can see like people talk about Detroit like Eisenman he doesn't tell anybody what he's thinking like I think you're nuts if you try to guess what that guy is going to do but it's hard not to look at these situations and say yeah there's there's other and you know the other thing too

there's good coaches out there that are available now. And so you've got to decide, is that better person better for us right now? Right. I wonder, we look at Boston, at least I look at Boston, as a very, like, stable, well-run organization.

They have good players that have been there a long time. And yet Bruce Cassidy finds his way out of there, wins a cup immediately. I've dealt with him over the last three years. He's an absolute dream of a coach to deal with. Yes, he is. Yes, he is. And now you see Montgomery going there.

He's got the best record. in the NHL since he got there. And he isn't sure, or at least we're wondering if he's sure that that's the place for him. Is Boston's, like, is that not the correct perception of Boston, that it's this stable, well-run organization that does things the right way? Like, is our perception changing on the Bruins? I think what I would say to that, Jesse, is that I think what we're seeing this year, like, we're not used to seeing this much noise out of Boston. And you remember, like, Cam Neely talked about it on the weekend. He'd even interview the Boston. Boston Globe where he said this has been, it's never been settled this year.

And Sweetie talked about that yesterday too. And some of the players kind of discussed it about himself. You know what I think it is, Jesse? It's that I think the Swayman's contract situation was kind of like the biggest noise. But if you look at it the last couple of years, you know, Boston always kind of held the line on salaries and their contract negotiations were very quiet. but last couple of years they've gotten a lot louder and the line has really moved. And I don't have a problem with people negotiating for their best deal. Everybody has the right to negotiate for the best deal.

But in the past, it was kind of like Boston got their way and now the players have pushed back and they've moved like Posternak moved the line. McAvoy moved the line. Swayman moved the line. And it's different for Boston. And also on the ice, in the last four. five years, they've lost a Hall of Fame number one defenseman and a Hall of Fame number one center. And not only were those guys great players on the ice, but they set the culture

off the ice. And I just wonder, Jesse, if we're in a position where Boston, like, I still think it's a pretty smart organization, but I wonder if the changes have been so seismic and the losses on and off the ice have been so seismic that they're struggling to find out who they are than the post-charro post-Bergeron era. And I believe where we are now, that's as much as what we're looking at as anything else. Elliot, you made some news. I believe on your last 32 Thoughts podcast about the salary cap,

potentially skyrocketing here in the next couple of years, much faster than a lot of us anticipated potentially as much as 98. I believe next year, then you threw the 110 line out for two years ago and gave every wild man a heart attack. Probably Craig Leopold, I'm sorry. But it jives with a lot of the stuff that I've been hearing. And even before the year, I don't know if you read the story that I did on The Wilde with Craig Leopold

and talking about Bruce of. He indicated that we're hearing the cap is going up a lot more than you guys are hearing. And then, of course, Gary Betman comes out and sort of lowers the temperature probably to help the Edmonton Oilers, the Minnesota wild, that all of a sudden, you know, guys like Paul Theophanus don't think they can ask for 20 million. What, you know, what's your whole sense of what you reported, Gary's rebuttal, and what the reality is because clearly revenues are going up. You know, first of all, if people ask me, like,

does it bother you when Beton says that? No, it doesn't. Like, on one hand, he's right in the sense they haven't even discussed it yet. So he's a lawyer. He's telling the truth. He's not lying about that. But no, that never bothers me. You know, it's life in the big city.

You know, the thing is, it's, you know, it's, you know, the funniest line I got was I had a GM text me and say, they have a, they have a GM that text me and says, are you sure you know what you're talking about? And like, which made me laugh. Like I thought, I thought that was really funny. Look, I mean, a lot of it is common sense. But, you know, this conversation is coming. And, you know, basically, because right now, it used to be 50-50. Now, I always say this as a caveat.

There are people on the players side to say, well, it's not exactly 50-50, but let's just make this simple. It's 50-50. And during the COVID-CBA, the players and the league delinked. It's not 50-50 anymore. But if you do the simple math, if they go back to that type of a deal, 50-50, then the cap is going to go way up. The revenues have been excellent, and it's a credit to the league. They've done a great job.

And if you read Betman's own quotes, which is kind of what the union is doing here, then you'll see that he's talking about how the revenues are exploding. So his own words indicate that this is going to be a change. Now, some people said that the 110 number is a bit high, but they generally didn't disagree with the premise. And so a couple of years ago in the NBA, they had a big TV deal. This was in the summer, I want to say it was 2016, and their cap went up a record $24 million. And that summer, it allowed Kevin Durant to sign with Golden State. And even the players realized later they didn't like that. So what they did in their new CVA, which they just signed, is they made a limit to the cap every year.

They did something smoothing, called smoothing 10%. And so I think the NHL has a choice. Assuming we are going back to a split, whether it's 50, 50, or whatever you want to do, then they could do 92 and a half this next year, and then whatever the jump is going to be. And if the revenues keep going, it's going to be big. It could be $15 to $18 million, or they can go a bit higher next year. to smooth it out. And, you know,

I think, I think this is a situation where they're going to talk about it. The players have definitely been made aware of the possibility. I think it's possible. The very least it's going to be a conversation about it. And the other thing, guys here, this is not a CBA that's getting done when everything is bad. Or somebody wants a work stoppage.

Everybody wants a deal. There's nothing worth fighting over in terms of stopping play. And GMs do want a bit more flexibility. So I think they get something done to move the cap up. I said 97. It'll be interesting between 95 and 97. We'll see. But I think there's something coming.

And put it this way, aside from Batman saying we haven't even discussed that yet, nobody has called to tell me I'm a complete moron. and believe me, when I get something wrong, somebody will tell me I'm a complete moron. Yeah, I think it says everything that Betman hasn't called you himself. And you know, I've been on the receiving end of those calls, and sometimes he's been right. Like, you know, like, I concede it.

If I'm wrong and he thinks I'm really wrong, he will call me and tell me. And that's totally fine. That's the way it works. When something like this is up in the air, And like, all the GMs, all the agents are expecting a rise in salary, but they aren't sure and they don't know where it's going to be. Like, no one talks to these guys more than you. How early do people act on something like that?

Like, are the agents already trying to get higher sales, like based on that? And are the GMs already planning on having extra money? You know, it's interesting you say this, Jesse, because this came through what was coming out in these, in the player, meet, in the player tour with the union. For people who aren't familiar, the union goes and they meets with all 30,000. two teams like at this point in the season. And it's definitely coming through that. And I heard it from players and I started checking with some agents. I'll say this.

I think there's some teams that have an inclination of this. And I think that there are others who aren't sure. So that says to me it's much more this position is much more felt on the players side right now than on the team side. That's not to say that, The teams that know are wrong or anything like that or the teams that don't know who are wrong, I think it's just been more widely spread. Like the one thing I can tell you, Jesse, is that I have had some teams have told me

that some of the negotiations they have had have come to a crawl. So they think that some of, like there are definitely some agents who are saying, I don't want to sign a deal until I know what the number is for sure. That's definitely happening. Yeah. And so, by the way, to Elliot's points, Ron Hanzi and Marty Walser and C. San Jose the other day meeting with the sharks in the wild. They like to go to warm weather cities for their tour.

Yes, I was going to say, I'll take San Jose over New Jersey. Yeah. But, Elliot, to your point and to Jesse's question, it's got to be really hard for like Chris McFarland right now dealing with Nico Ranton or just imagine next summer if you're Stan Bowman dealing with McDavid or Bill Guerin dealing with Caprice up and you don't know what that number is going to be in two years. And Theophanas is coming in asking for 19 million. You know, like, you are going to have to have some direction from the NHL, some legitimate, accurate, where is the cap going to be able to do a quality contract with these guys?

Well, if you heard Betman, he said that he hopes to get this done by game one of the Stanley Cup final. He said that at the board of governors meeting in October. And the other thing he said that was really interesting was he was on CNBC yesterday. And he's, and so I did, like, I'll say this right now. I work at Rogers. The one thing about my company is they have a very strict line of church and state. They have told me, when I got hired, they told me I want to understand one thing about Rogers. I said, what's that?

And they said, there are things we're going to know about the NHL that you are not to ask us, or we are not going to tell you. They need to know that they can do business with us in private. And so I recognized that. And Betman went on CNBC yesterday and said, so I knew we had a work. We have one year left in the Canadian TV deal. I knew we had a window to talk about it this season. He went on CNBC yesterday and said they've already triggered it and starts on January 1st.

Like, I didn't know that. So it says to me, like, he's got a strategy here. He wants this CBA done a year early. And obviously he's going to work on getting the TV deal done. He's going to work on expansion. He's going to work on giving the players more money to play with next year. and Mike, I think he wants this done. Look, obviously, July 1st is when you can extend guys like McDavid and Caprisov.

I don't know if it's possible to get it done before that, but I think he wants to get it done before that. Yeah. Elliot, I did want to ask you about Sidney Crosby. I mean, I've watched these Sportsnet commercials. I know the rapport that you have with them. You know, obviously, you know everything that's going on in his head. I would not say that.

I would not say that. Obviously, penguins are in a real tough situation, right now, just watching them play of late. We were there about two, three weeks ago on the Mark Fleury, incredible night, and they were not very good. Their blue line really struggled that night. Not a lot of depth. What, you know, like, where do you think Crosby's head's going to be at if this is clearly

the next two years going to be something that they are going to have to turn this over and it's going to be years of losing? Obviously, he's got three cups in his belt. So that changes maybe this isn't a Ray Bork type thing, but I can't imagine for a competitor to like him that he's going on to see this route. But he's also got two years left at 8.7, which makes it a very tradable contract at the level that he continues to play at.

So, you know, I guess my question is, when's he playing next to, you know, McKinnon and Rantan and McCartner and, you know, it's funny, like we were joking that McKinnon's probably driving to Pittsburgh to stuff him in the trunk and take him back to Colorado. You know, I, to me that, like,

the one thing that's different this year, Michael, is I think he always thought like people would talk about a rebuild it would never happen. He's been there since 2005 and it's never happened in almost 20 years.

So I think he heard this talk and he said, yeah, we'll talk about it but it's not going to happen. Now it's going to hit everybody there square in the face. The one thing is like he's not a fast-moving guy when it comes to this stuff. Like he didn't sign this year until September. I would expect at some point in time

like he'll sit down and you know he'll talk with people and at like I don't think he wants to leave. I really don't I really don't think he wants to leave. I think if he wanted to leave he would have stayed he wouldn't assign. I just think Michael is as the losing kicks in and the rebuild kicks in, I don't know the answer. Do I believe it could come to a point where he says, this isn't for me? Yes, but I don't know when that is.

And even if he gets that into his head, I don't know if he'll act on it. Like leaving Pittsburgh, I don't know. I don't think he's ever seriously considered the possibility. Makes sense. And also with him, I don't want to get anything wrong. because it's a disaster if I say something and it turns out to be wrong. Hey, you were the first person that knew 8-7 would be in his contract. Well, I mean, that was obvious.

Like, first of all, I know what you know what was funny, Mike, is that, like, he says, I don't know. And then two days later, he signs for 8-7. So he definitely knew. He knew, of course. Like, of course he knew. Where he was stupid was it should have been 11.8-7, not eight. Honestly, I thought that's what it was going to be. I thought it was going to be 10.87.

Like, that's what I thought it was going to be. What's interesting about it, and to me, there's always a method to, like, Papra San's madness is that 8.7 makes him so tradable. But 11.8.7, it's like, all of a sudden, you really want to, you know, like, I don't know. I got to say this. I think if he was making 20.87, somebody would trade for him. But you're right. Like, he set it up so that if it wants to happen, it can happen.

Wild fans want Mark Andre Fleury to start to his final act in Minnesota as to convince Krosby to come to the wild. I don't know. I'll say this, though. Like, there is, there are, there is a segment of fans that want Flurry on the Canadian foreign nations team is the third goal. Well, it survives. It survives.

Oh, he's the best for vibes, that's for sure. Yeah. Whether Krosby ends up getting traded or not, it does seem like there's a, like a lack of center depth around some teams in the NHL, especially significantenders. You look at Nashville, they aren't off to the start they were hoping for. it's probably a big center depth is a big reason for that. Toronto maybe could look at a center. I'm wondering,

I know we're still months away from the trade deadline, but are you already starting to hear things? I know like Morgan Frost in Philly, he's a young center who possibly be out there for teams. Frost, today in my notes, I actually wrote that the team that makes a lot of sense to me for Frost is Chicago.

Like they are looking for centers. Like that's, but center is a big one. You know, the one guy who's really, interesting to me is Yanni Gord because it doesn't look like he's one of Balsma's favorites, but the organization really loves the guy. Like they love Yanni Gord. So I'm curious to see about that one. But centers, I think Nashville, Chicago, Toronto, I think is going to start looking at

centers. You know, they don't have like to me, the question is like those teams, Jesse, like right now Chicago and Nashville, they're ahead of the game. They know what they know what they want. When do the other teams start waiting in and saying, okay, like Chicago and Nashville, they have cap room, they have full coup to picks. Like other teams don't have that. When do these other teams start waiting in and saying, okay,

we're in the center market now, even though they might not have the same cap space or the same things to deal that those two teams do. But I think Frost is a great one. The thing about Frost is you know, his agent Darren Ferris ride the Ferris wheel.

Like, you know, teams like he can be he's he can really he can really get you but morgan frost has always been like no keep quiet no issues here but kids want to play i think there's that one i'll say this like i think you know grandlin's having a great start to the year in san jose like that's a name we're going to hear a lot of depending on you know last night he got knocked out of the game the concussion spot or took him out at the worst time like they didn't have them on the ice at the end of the game So I think so. Like I think Granlan's going to be another one definitely.

We're going to start hearing out there. Awesome. Well, we appreciate your time, Elliot. It's been great. Thanks for coming on. My pleasure, guys. See, Elliot, I'm going to watch some commercials now of you. So, like, I got to tell you, like, people would not believe this about me.

Like, I would be so happy if, like, no commercial of me ever aired. I appreciate it, but I don't like the attention. Like I said, my boyfriend. buddies every time it comes on, they just murder me. Like, they just kill me. But you are the best. You know, I was just actually up in the conciergeon. I was talking to these couple wild fans.

And I told them that you were coming on the athletic hockey show. And I told them the story, they're like, what's Elliot like? I'm like, here's what you need to know about Elliot Freeman. He and I walking around Prague and you get stopped by that family from Saskatoon. Yes. And you treated them like gold. You took pictures with the family, the dad, the. the kids and it was just it was a good like you know you just showing you know exactly who you

were and you gave them a memory so like and and the dad even made some joke he's like when he saw that you were here you're like I wonder if we're going to run into Elliot on the street and then there we are an old town and run you know I got to tell you know who taught me that was was cherry Don Cherry like when we worked together like he was the biggest star in Canadian Canada and people would come up to him and he would treat them great and I asked them once about it and he says these people are the reason we have jobs and if you're nice to them for five minutes, they're your fan forever. I do believe that.

I try. You guys know, we don't always have great days, right? But if somebody comes up to you in public, you've got to try your best to be as good to them as you can because without them, we don't have jobs. Yeah. And I'm good in public.

It's on Twitter where I just block them and tell them off. You know, Mike, I got to tell you, like, Jesse, like I see you in Twitter. I see you in person. I'm like, you're the same guy. You don't change. You're consistent. I like that. Mike, you turn into a madman on there.

The New Yorker comes out of me very quickly. I am my father's son, as I like to say. We have a very quick. 10 second rule, 10 seconds. Look at your tweet for 10 seconds. If it's still a good idea, press it. That's my role. Yeah, that's a good advice.

I'm going to try to try to keep. I've been pretty well behaved so far this year. I got to tell you, though, it is entertaining. When I see one of those from you, I'm like, ah, this is awesome. I'm just glad it's not me, though. That's the way I look forward to it. Yeah, I look forward to Mike Sweet. Unless the Golden Knights are playing the wild in a playoff series,

then I want nothing to do with it because the Minnesota. It's usually jet fans that get me going. It's like, Jet fans are just so clever. Like basically what they did to Jake Ottinger, they do to me all the time. Only Jake probably handled it much better. They are clever, though. My favorite, I'll leave you at this, Elliot, and Jesse, you'll love this because it's a goalie thing.

My favorite chant ever from how clever Jets fans are is game five or six, I guess, in 2018 playoffs. We're in Winnipeg. And Dubnick gives, oh, it would have been game five. Dubnick gives up four first period goals. They put in Alex Daylock to start the second. He makes a glove saved from the blue line. And all of a sudden the fans start chanting, we want Dubnick.

We want Dubnick. We want Dubnick. I just thought it was so hilarious. It wasn't even funny. I'm sure he'll love it. I'm sure he'll love hearing you tell this story. That was Chuck Fletcher's last game is Wild GM. Oh, God.

Wow. Triggered the Paul Fitten era, the one-year era. Thanks for giving us so much time, Ellie. We really appreciate it. All right, guys. See there. See there. Bye-bye.

And speaking of those clever Winnipeg Jets fans, we're going to come back from the break with a bet MGM segment where we talk about how the odds makers are disrespecting the Jets, which is pretty much what always happens. And I'm sure the clever Jets fans will be pumped to hear about that. All right, we're back. And this segment is brought to you by BetMGM, the official betting partner of the athletic.

And I was looking at the odds the other day on BetMGM. And I'll be honest, Michael. I actually had to refresh the page to make sure that these odds were live. I'm like, wait a minute, these Stanley Cup odds can't be right. This must be from before the season started, before the Winnipeg Jets were 16 and 3 and just demolishing every team in the NHL because right now, Winnipeg currently sits at 14 to 1 to win the Stanley Cup. And those are the 10th best odds in the NHL.

A third of the NHL almost has better odds, including Toronto, a team like Colorado that's really struggled out of the gates, New Jersey, who has high expectations, but maybe hasn't played quite as well as they'd hoped, all those teams above the wagon that is the Winnipeg Jets in this. Do you believe that the Winnipeg Jets are real? You see this team more than anyone. They're in the central playing against the wild all the time. I watched him against Florida the other night and I came away from that game saying this, this team is legitimately, I think the best team in the NHL right now. What do you think? Yeah, I think they're for real. And the other thing is they have a ton of cap space going into the deadline. I think it's like 12 million that

they're going to be able to. And Kevin Shevel Dea off, if he thinks that they're going to be a true contender, I think that they're going to even ads, which makes that a better value. You, you know, odds better than me. Like, how does that work? Is that fans betting that's causing those odds, or is that the odds maker? Like, are they just not getting a lot of bets to win the cup? Like, how does that all work? It's, yes. I mean, they are, they do react to the market. So when a bunch of money comes in on a team, that the odds on that team are going to go down because in the sports books, perfect world, it's an even split between all the teams. Because the more even the betting is the, the better chance the sports book has of winning because the sports book just

takes that they just skim that little small percentage off the top. You don't want a bunch of people to win or a bunch of people to lose. You'd rather everyone, it just kind of be even amongst the team. So that's why they drop the odds when people bet. But I also do think the sports, the odds makers are trying to predict those moves a little bit. Right. So like Winnipeg wins all these games. You'd think that in anticipation of all the money that's going to come in,

they would lower those odds. So all people that are pouring their money and aren't getting 14 to 1, they're only getting 10 to 1, 8 to 1, whatever it is. So I find it very fascinating that the belief, and I kind of put the blame on the odds makers, but the blame is on the people betting on the cup also. Nobody seems to believe in this Winnipeg Jets team. And it's probably because they got routed by Colorado last year. And that's what is that's what's in everybody's mind.

The freshest thing in your mind is how bad that series went. And everyone's just saying, well, they're off to a good start. But by the time A comes around, it's going to be a different. story. I don't know. I just think this team, they control the puck so well. It just seems like they're in full control of this game. The Florida game I mentioned the other night, they're up three nothing. Florida scores two goals to make it a three two game. Winnipeg ended up icing the game late and scoring a few more to get out of reach. But even when it was three to two and Florida had scored two in row. It felt like the Jets were in complete goal of that game. They just between Lowry and Shite,

like they have so many good players. It just feels like they are in control of the game every time I've watch. They also have like, I mean, Cal Conner's got to be the most underrated star in the league. I mean, he is a true goal scorer. He's so gifted. And yet, you know, it's like nobody ever talks to him as like one of the great Americans. And, and, you know, Ellers has been great. Morrissey's been awesome. And

it might, and like, you know, I'm a big Pionk guy. Um, you know, I think I don't know if it's recency bias with just watching, you know, I know Hellabuck thinks that he played great in that playoff series and that numbers aren't the numbers. But, you know, he obviously, you know, took a step back. And last year he was the Vesna winner. So I think a lot of people are thinking, all right, you know, maybe in Vegas, like, all right, who cares that he's putting a Vesna numbers again? Let's see him in the playoffs. And then, you know, you think about two years ago with Vegas and what

they did with them and, you know, and obviously the end there for bonus. So I don't know. I mean, it's just, to me, it's bizarre because I look at them as being a true form. incredible, you know, real, real contender in the West. And I'll be honest, they have surprised me. I really did look at them. And maybe it's just getting me also the same thing watching them in the playoffs last year. Like I looked at them coming into this year as a team that I thought would take a step back in the West. And clearly that's been anything but where they got off to, you know, such an incredible,

incredible start. So we'll see, you know, somebody right now is going to make a lot of money. money on them if they win the cup. Right. Exactly. If you are a believer in the Jets, now's the time. Awesome. 10 bucks on.

I'll try to win 140. What's, what are you working on, Michael? You got anything coming out, anything big coming up? I'm sure you do. Yeah, we,

you know, James Merrill and I are working on our, uh, the annual agent player pool at the athletic, which we got some great questions. So we're going to go and, and panel a bunch of them. Um, just a bunch of wild stuff right now.

My colleague, Joe Smith on Petrini leave for another, almost exactly a month. So I've been pretty much beat writer duty. I'm not doing a ton of national stuff so far. But once Joe comes back, then I'll really get back into my, you know, sort of half wild, half national duties. I'm covering the four nations with LeBron and CJ. I'll be down with GM's meetings in March and things like that.

So, you know, back to my, right now it's all wild. And they've made it fun for me this year because, you know, the one thing that you know, Jesse is a beat. writer and you've been, you know, you've been the most spoiled of all of us at the athletic because the team has been incredible since it came into existence. But you don't root for your team, but, and it's just so much easier when they're winning. And right now, this team's been a dream to cover. Like you don't walk in the locker room and feel like, all right, they want us out of here

right now, you know, everybody's in a great mood. They're playing awesome. So, so luck, I mean, if I had to pick any sort of wild start to the season with Joe Smith on paternity leave and not getting really any days off, this would be the one. Nice, nice. And I've got a story up this morning. I worked on with Fluto Shinsua, and it's a really fun story on the future of goalies. What does the future goalie look like?

Fluto spoke with some goalie coaches. His kids are goalies, so he's got the expertise in net. It was fun to team up with him for a story. We got really technical with some, I spoke with David Lassand, the goalie coach for the U.S. Men's National, the development program. I spoke with Stephen Thompson, who's the director of goaltending development for USA hockey. we really got into the weeds on what as as hockey gets faster and more skilled that it's like at an incredible rate right now the sports just getting faster and faster and the offensive players are getting better

what specific attributes do goalies of the future need to be elite at so that was a fun one that's up on the on the website right now um thanks for listening to that on because fluto's uh he hasn't been very busy in the last couple days has he so right yeah yeah it was it was good to be doing a dual byline on that because, yeah, like he's, he's been pretty busy. You don't know listening, Flutos are Boston Bruins writer, so he's been a little underwater the last two days. For sure. Awesome.

Well, thanks for joining me, Mike. Thanks for everybody for listening to the Athletic Hockey Show. Haley and Sean will return after Thanksgiving in December. Max Boltman, Corey Pranman, Scott Wheeler, and Chris Peters will have the Prospect Series Friday on the Athletic Hockey Show. For Russo, I'm Granger. Thanks for listening.