The Athletic Hockey Show - What are NHL insiders saying about the 2025 draft class?

Episode Date: June 12, 2025

Max, Corey, and Scott discuss Corey’s annual NHL Draft Confidential piece where league evaluators give their thoughts on this year’s prospects. Plus, the guys talk about their final draft rankings and compare the top of the 2024 and 2025 classes to close the show. Hosts: Max Bultman and Corey PronmanWith: Scott WheelerExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside the athletic Scott Wheeler and Corey Pranman for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. If you are surprised to be hearing us on a Thursday, don't worry. Sean and Haley will be with you guys tomorrow to talk about the fallout from game four. And by the way, just a quick teaser here for you. Next week we are going to do our annual live mock draft episode where we do a mock draft as we record here. So make sure you tune in for that one. But we wanted to jump in here today.

Scott and Corey both have their final draft boards out. Corey's got his NHL draft confidential that just came out on Tuesday. A lot to talk about as we get closer to the draft here. And I want to start with that draft confidential, Corey, especially right at the top of this. And we've talked about Michael Mesa, Matthew Schaefer, and how close are they? In this, I mean, that's the first question you really pose. Most of the sources like Schaefer is the top guy. But I thought there was interesting.

Some had it close. And one of the scouts even said he thought Mesa should be number one. ahead of Schaefer. Yeah. It was interesting and I kind of echo some conversations we've had all year on this show about the season that Mesa had. Also, I'd like to give, you know, maybe a shout out to all the people who are listening to our show for the three or four times a year.

They tune into the prospect series. So welcome, everybody. It's draft season. But going back to Max's question, Michael Misa's track record is that of what first overall picks look like in terms of what he's. He's done in the OHL. His production is outstanding. He's a great skater.

He's got a ton of skill. It's a really exciting player. You know, there's some holes in his game. There are some scouts who are a little bit more hesitant. And despite his production, may not describe him in the dynamic fashion that you would typically talk about first overall forwards or that he even talk about Matthew Schaefer in. But, you know, we've talked about the risk in Schaefer.

He didn't really play a lot all year. It's easy to get excited about how we looked at various international events. but we don't really have the full body of work on him that you would hope to have when you pick first overall. So I get the concerns there. I still think end of the day it's going to be Schaefer at one. But I think talking to Scouts for this piece, you saw that other than Schaefer and to some extent, Michael Mesa, there was a lot of conflicting opinions. And I said this about the draft last year, where after pretty much Celebrity, I said, If this draft would have been reordered in any way for the teams that were picking two to ten,

I think things could have gone wildly different. Lindstrom could have gone two. Demadoff could have gone two. Sam Dickinson could have gone three. Yakumchuk could have gone in the top five. Berkeley Katten could have gone in the top five. Anton Zelayaev could have gone five or six. And I kind of feel that about this year's draft.

I feel if when you get from three to nine, three to ten in this year's draft, the opinions are wildly different. And it really is just going to come down. to who the team's picking at the given spot particularly value based on their research. I thought it was interesting to your point on Mesa. Like, it's not just draft eligible. He's got more points for any OHL player since Tavares and Cain in 2006 and 7. Like, that is even more than I maybe even realized.

I read that quote and I went and checked it. And I was like, I mean, obviously there's per game out like McDavid outscored on my per game base. Actually, Marco Rossi even outscored him on a per game basis. but it's been rare. And he didn't get the world juniors like those guys did in their draft years, for example. So that gives him a few more games and all that. But no, it's, you know, a marvelous year. I mean, 60 goals is nothing to sneeze at.

And it's a really interesting argument because I've watched a lot of Michael Misa. I know Scott wants to jump in here. And he knows Misa obviously very well too. Like in all the games I've watched of him over a long period of time, I've never gotten like that special. feeling when you watch a guy like who is celebrini, who is McDavid, David, who is Schaefer, who is Bidar. You never come up at a game, like, holy hell.

Like, that was something special. I just watched. I've never felt that way watching Mesa, but it's hard to ignore what he's done in the OHL. One of the things with Mesa, too, that I think stands in the way of people getting excited about him in the way that they have other players who've scored 60 goals or scored 130 points in their draft year. I think part of it is that there were knights to Corey's point where you'd show up and watch Saganon. Igor Charnyshav was the better player on that line.

Or even Christian Epperson in a number of games stood out on that line. So part of it was the linemates. Now, he wasn't playing with Igor Charny Chorneeshav early on in the fall and he still got out to a two point per game pace in October and November before Charnyshav joined that team. But once Charnyshav joined that line took another step and was one of the premium lines, not just in the OHL, but that we've seen in. recent years in junior hockey. Charney Shaw was one of the very best, most talented offensive players and goal scores in the OHL in the second half. And then part of it, I think, is that there's been over-scouting. I think that happens with all of these kids when they play three years. Had he done this as a two-year player, had he gone from point per game as a 16-year-old to

where he was at as a 17-year-old, I think there might have been a little bit more excitement about what he accomplished this year. But because he's been around for three years, because people have been watching him and hearing about him since that OHL Cup, because he's been good but not great at some of the stages like the CHL USA Top Prospects game, and because he hasn't participated in a lot of Hockey Canada events after skipping a couple of them, there's, there just haven't been those, maybe those big, marquee moments that we've seen from Matthew Schaefer, where Schaefer has just owned the moment and been the guy, been the player that leaps off the page at you.

The next question you had in there, Corey, was about who the next. best defenseman is in this class. We've debated this pretty thoroughly on the show. I thought it was interesting. Mertka kind of got the nod from the NHL sources here, kind of seemingly because he's maybe the safest. I mean, one of the quotes is he's going to give you the least headaches of this group. And I kind of feel like when draft day rolls around, he is going to be the second defenseman picked. I'd actually be quite surprised at this stage if it's anybody but him. I think there are pockets of the league that prefer Jackson Smith. There are pockets of the league that prefer Kishon Aitchinson.

There's extremely small pockets of the league who believe Cameron Reed belongs in that conversation. But I kind of think at the end of the day, it's still good to be Merka. And I think, you know, he probably goes right closer

to somewhere in that 6 to 11, 6 to 12 range, something like that. I think odds are there will be one other defenseman picked in the top 10. And it seems like it's going to be him. just seems like a real sure bet to be a top four defensemen who can play on both special teams. I think with Smith, I like people who really like him will like, will compare him to Thomas Harley and the development and the issues of the same age.

But I think you also could look at like what Pavl Minchikov's up and downs in Anaheim and say, well, there's a little bit of the same characteristics with the high end talent, but the wildness. He's not super good defensively despite the. athleticism. I've used Jacob Chichron and some of the ups and downs that Jacob Chichron's had. And then you went with Aitchinson, it's just more, I think with Acheson, the concerns are more people, despite the tremendous offense he showed this year. I think there are people in the league that actually have questions on how that's going to translate up levels and whether he is a natural

enough puck mover. And also just whether he'll get himself into too much trouble with his high event type of play. But like I said, I think if you, If the order was a little bit different, maybe you can get one of those guys in there, but I think it's very likely going to be Merck as a second defenseman. Yeah, listen to this quote from the story on Hson. I love this. It's an executive. Kishan Heson is an apex predator.

He knocks guys out with a hit, and then he knocks out the guy who comes calling for the fight afterwards. There's nobody in a top four in the NHL who plays like him. I read that as a huge compliment, but to your point, Corey, that line there's nobody in an NHL top four who plays like him. That can kind of cut both ways. Right, because I think the concern is, is like if you have someone who's wild and who has a pension for fighting and for throwing huge hits and getting 100 plus penalty minutes, you'd rather that person not be someone so critical to your lineup that when they go out on a 5 plus 10, you feel like your lineup is devastated or if they get suspended for 10 games, you feel like your lineup is devastated. So I think, though, that aspect of his game definitely has people excited for obvious reasons and how it could translate into the playoffs and being a tougher team, which is whatever

an NHL team wants, but also the can he rein it in a little bit? I think those are the debates going on with H's in right now. I'm a big fan of this player. I would not have that worry, but it's interesting to see that NHL teams do. Interesting one, Corey, Mason West is a guy that we talked about on the show at the Combine last week. any clarity on, I mean, we talked about the big decision he has, hockey and football. And if you're drafted him high, you certainly want that decision to be hockey.

But he's planning to play high school football. And any clarity teams got at the combine? I mean, I don't think they got any more clarity than what he told the media. The thing is, I think teams interpreted what he told them differently than I think what the public perception was of his answer. I think what he came out and said, I'm a. committed to being a hockey player. I'm just going to go play football this fall.

And then it's going to Fargo. And then it's, I'm all in as a hockey player thereafter. He used that term both with the media and with his team saying he's all in as a hockey player. Obviously, so it was, I think with teams, they had really hard questions for him in their interviews about how a player can be all in as a hockey player if he's going to go play arguably the most violent and injury-prone sport in North America for the duration of the fall.

How a player who could be all in as a hockey player isn't going to spend his summer training to be a hockey player as opposed to potentially training to be up for his upcoming football season. And I think, I've talked about this in previous episodes,

I think there's legitimate concerns that as he continues to play football and doesn't completely give it up, even though he is a high-end quarterback prospect right now. Things change when it comes to prospects, and there is always a chance he looks really, really good or considers a position change

that would allow him to be a higher-end football recruit, and then he gets recruited as a football player, especially given the outrageous amount of money that players are making in college football right now, even if they are not going to the most premium of schools are playing the most illustrious positions. So I think there's significant concerns on West. I think not everybody,

but a lot of people think he could be like a late first round talent. At this point, I wouldn't be stunned, but I would, I'd be a little surprised if his name got called in the first round. I think he has not given the league, the proper assurances that he is willing to give us up.

And some people will compare this to Anders Lee, for example, but Anders Lee was a mid-round pick. There's a big difference between taking that kind of swing on a fourth or a fifth round pick and doing it in the top 30, the top 40, top 40, top 45, you're passing on guys who are probably going to play in the NHL to take this guy. And I don't know, I think that's kind of where things stand on West right now. Not in Corey's confidential, but Scott, you had something on Malcolm Spence. Yeah, there was just something coming out. There were a couple of things that caught my eye about Spence coming out of the combine. The first was that I just heard that he interviewed really well and that he was one of the standouts in terms of the interview process. But the second was that he was down 11 pounds from his listing, his 201 pound listing heading into the combine. He was re-listed now at 190 pounds. And I sent out a couple of texts to people sort of saying, is there something to this? How is he down 11 pounds? And what I got back was actually something that I had.

heard. I'd known that he was wearing a bubble earlier in this season, but I hadn't actually asked or connected the dots on why he was wearing a bubble. And it sounds like he had a pretty serious infection on his tongue. He actually split his tongue wide open in a game in the OHL earlier this year. And then after getting the tongue basically stitched back together, uh, there was a, there was a growth on the tongue and, and, uh, they had to lance it. And there were multiple sort of procedures that followed. And it sounds like he had trouble breathing when he was playing. And this became a real issue for Malcolm Spence over the course of the year and one that frankly I wasn't even aware of until a couple of days ago. And as part of that process, he was

struggling to eat and he lost all that weight. And so that's where the 190 pound listing comes from. I would have fully expected he's going to sort of get that back and play at 205, 210 pounds in the NHL kind of thing. But it caught me off guard. And it was just something that I felt was at least relevant to sort of his season in the way that it played out and kind of disappointed that I didn't know it prior to the last week or so. Fun Malcolm Spence, anecdote from the combine. I don't think in all the years I've gone to the combine, I've never seen anyone argue was NHL Central Scouting after getting their height and weight measured.

Spence asked for a redo, I think, because I guess they, because I think he was expecting to be 6-1 and it came in at maybe 60, 60.5, 6.1. 1.75, that's ultimately what he got measured in it. But that was quite amusing. Like I said, never seen that one before. Did they do it? They did. They remeasured him a second time.

They remeasured him and they remeasured him at six and three quarters. And he didn't seem too pleased about that. All right. Well, Spence is an interesting one to talk about and a good kind of transition here because we have gotten a little bit of feedback that we've been real heavy on the top half or the top 12 players in this class. I think there is one part of your confidential, Corey, that kind of gets at some of these players that maybe we haven't talked quite as much about.

And that's the most underrated section. So you mentioned one of him, Cameron Reed, Blake Fiddler got a mention. Jack Nesbitt got a mention. Justin Carboneau got a mention. Cole McKinney gets a mention. What do you think kind of the, I don't, we don't need to spend a ton of time on each of these guys necessarily. But you mentioned, Reed, that there's a minority that feel he belonged in that top group. I mean, that comes from being a great skating, smart player.

Yeah, I think you're kind of looking at him, kind of tilting your head and wondering how much like a Josh Morrissey type of player is this really. And that's a little heavy for me. But, you know, Devonte's another name you hear. Like if it ever goes really, really well, this is the kind of player he could be just because of the skating, they compete, you know, having enough offense in his game. I don't think he's a real natural, high and offensive type.

But depending on the nights you watched him this year, he looked pretty impactful at times. So I don't think it's unreasonable. I think he's got a really good chance to be a top 20 pick, maybe a top 15. but probably close to the 20. You know, it was interesting as I thought Frundel, Jackson Smith and Jack Nesbitt didn't have great U18 world championships.

And I thought coming out of that tournament, their stocks would be a little bit down, but it doesn't really feel that way. I feel like Nesbitt still got a really good chance to go in the top 20. Frondell seems all but assured to go in the top five. Right now, Jackson Smith feels all but assured to go top 15, maybe even top 12 still. So it doesn't feel like you,

the guys we thought had tough U-18s really lowered their stock, and the guys who had the great U-A-teens are the only ones who seemed to be going higher, i.e. Brady Martin. Yeah. All right. And then one last one, the goaltending position. We have not talked about many goalies in this class behind Joshua Ravensburg, and a little bit about Jack Ivan Covick, Corey. But while Ravensbergen is the top guy here, this confidential piece, I was struck a lot of love

for Semyon Frolov, who I don't think we've talked about at all. all on this show. Yeah, I didn't get the sense that Ravensburg, and even in the league, is considered the consensus top goalie. I think most have them as the top goalie, but I think there is not as much for Ivan Kov, but definitely for those two Russian goalies. Semion Frolov, I'm Peter Andrianov. I'll be seeing them next week at Dan Milstein's camp. They're both Milstein clients, and they'll both be flying in, so we'll have a chance to see him live. Frolov's really fascinating, because I think what you're watching, he looks super talented, like really, really athletic goalie.

But he barely played this year. I think he only got like 20 starts. He bounced around between a couple of teams. When he went into Spartak, Moscow at the end of the year, he wasn't even the go-to starter for that team. That was, and they were the best team in the MHL this season. But it's an interesting dynamic. I think Andrianov was about three inches shorter.

But for his national team, with Frolov as part of the 07-H group, Andrianov was the starter. And I think as a junior goalie, he's much more. naturally talented. But it's an interesting dynamic there where I think most people in the league, with the exception of Ivan Kovic, there's a little Michael Prado love in Tri-City. I think those are considered the top three goalies, though, is Ravensburg and followed by the two Russian goalies.

So, and again, with the odd love for those other guys I just mentioned there. So it'll be really fascinating to see when they go, you know, taking a goalie who your people haven't seen live in the second round. is a little risky, especially when one of them is barely played this year. But I definitely heard from numerous people who felt on talent, Frolov was a first round goalie talent. All right. We're going to take quick break right there. We're going to come back and talk about both of your latest draft boards.

All right, we're back. And both of your final rankings boards have come out in the last 10 days or so. I want to start, Corey, with a guy that we have talked about quite a bit, but especially coming out of the combine where you get just a little bit more information. Roger McQueen. How much did anything you heard or didn't hear at the Combine factor into where you finally placed McQueen on your final list, which I believe was right at number nine? Yeah, which is basically where he's kind of been for the last few months for me. And that's based on the information I've gone as well in recent weeks on top of just knowing the player for a long time in that I've kind of said on the podcast the last month or two,

regards to Roger McQueen's back issues that I felt like the temperature in the league from the information. they were getting about his injury was cautionary, nothing completely reassuring, but compared to Caden Lindstrom last year, it was more positive. I feel like there's a little bit more optimism that McQueen can make a full recovery, everything will be fine.

The Membo coming out of a combine from McQueen and his camp is that he's perfectly fine, that he's 100% going to be ready to go. They're saying, like the, it wasn't like a disc issue. He's claiming he was misdiagnosed earlier in the year with, with, they felt like he was,

he was asked to sit way longer than he should have. And while that assured people to some extent, I don't think it's complete reassurance for a couple of reasons. One, he still missed action twice during his brief comeback, both a couple of games after he came back. And then in the playoffs, he missed the final game where,

where Brandon was eliminated. So that's a concern. Second, we kind of saw the same thing. happened with Canaan Lindstrom, where when he was missing months and a time, the memo was, it's not a big deal, don't worry about it, it's just precautionary, like, you know, medicine hat was downplaying it, other people around him were downplaying it, and then we don't see him for another year, you know, as he needs surgery, and it takes forever to recover from this, and we're hoping he's ready to go a year and a half later, essentially.

And so when it comes to making a really high pick, I think, like I said, I think people feel a little bit better about this, but I still feel like there is significant risk with McQueen. And I don't think everybody's looking at this situation thinking the risk is gone, his back is fine. there's no downside here on the injury factor. That's not the case right now. You mentioned in the last segment, some of the guys out of U-18s who had really good performances who helped themselves. One of those guys,

and really it was not limited to the U-18s, it was really the whole second half of his season, is Cole Reschney. And he comes in in the top 15 for both of you guys. Scott, we'll start with you here. How has Reschney helped himself so much over the course of the year? Well, it really was a tale of two seasons for Cole. he will tell you, and people around him and even the staff in Victoria will tell you that they were disappointed with the way that he looked in October, November, in the fall.

He scored the game-winning goal in the second game of the CHL USA Prospects Challenge and really ripped it under the bar. But he and scouts were disappointed in his play at the CHL USA Prospects challenge where people expected him to stand out more than he did. And then in the second half, he was one of not just the best players in the WHL, but one of the standouts, CHL wide and really carried that Victoria Royals team deeper in the playoffs than they had any business going. They went to six games with Spokane, which they had no business doing. He was clearly their best player and had kind of a playoff run for the ages where just game after game, he was scoring two or three goals and three or four points and willing them to wins or willing them into close games where they'd lose six, five, and he'd have a bunch of points. And he played in

all situations for them. He took all their important faceoffs. And I think that last piece, more than the 90 plus regular season points and the huge two points per game playoffs that he had, just his playoff the puck, he is, despite being 5'10 and a half, he's a really strong kid, and he competes. And he's one of the better two-way centers in this draft class. And really, I think that's what sold teams more than anything. Now, that doesn't guarantee he's an NHL center, but they know that the habits and the playoff the puck and the attention to detail and the work ethic, all of those important elements when you're a five, ten and a half player no matter how strong you are, those are key.

So I think that's where teams are at now on him is that he's not just a skill guy. He's really proven that he's a very, very well-rounded player. And college will be a very important test for him next year because the one question that still lingers about Cole is just, and he actually performed quite well in testing at the combine, but the one question that has kind of followed Cole is that he's a average, maybe slightly below average skater. I don't think it's an issue for him, but speed isn't an asset for him either. So that's the question he's going to have to answer in college next year. But beyond that, you're talking about a very complete player.

All right. The next one was kind of the, we got to it with Reed and maybe touched on Fiddler in the last segment, but there's kind of this cluster forming, maybe late, teens to early 20s of the next group of defensemen. And I just kind of wanted to hear you guys discuss a little bit. What is the case, if you really love a Blake Fiddler, if you really love a Logan Hensler, guy who had a great U18, Sasha Bumadeen, Corey? Well, I think of the case of Bumadean, I think it's the athleticism.

You're kind of buying the Mike Mathis and some potential projection where the skating is just outstanding. He's got good size. A little bit of a headache at tie with the puck, but there is skilled there. A guy at 30, 40 points as an underage in the USHL. the record-setting performers at the UAT World Championships. Decision-making isn't the best, but he has the makings of potential top four defense in the NHL

with a little bit more consistency in his game. Logan Hensler, I think if you draft Logan Hensler, it's really a bet on what he was coming up as a player where he looked like he had a chance to be this really significant, offensive player who's with size and mobility, and the offense, the last, let's say, 12, 16 months really didn't get to where I thought. it was going to get to, but he does have skills, and it wouldn't surprise me if he

get to 12 months or now when he has a monster year in the Big Ten, and you're talking about a steal around 20. I can see that being possible, even if I don't love his effort at times, and I don't love the, maybe the lack of physicality in his game, too. And then with Blake Fiddler, that's, he's really just a really non-flashy player, who was just really good defender, 6-5, mobile, physical, really steady player. offenses a little limited, but you look at the Brandon Carlos of the world in the NHL, you can kind of see a path for him to become just a steady, reliable minute-eating

defenseman. Interesting for Fiddler too. He listed at 220 at the Combine, which I thought was noteworthy after he was previously listed at like 198 or 200. So he's already begun to add some weight. All right. And then the last guy I wanted to get both of your thoughts on is Colin Potter. Scott, you've got him higher here.

You got him at 16. Corey has him at 31. I'll give you the first word on this one. Like, Colin obviously great skater. But what gets him into this territory on your list? Part of it is the draft and just not loving the guys that I had sort of 15 to 20 on my list, like a Logan Hensler, for example, who I just have some trepidation about that I have trepidation about players maybe a little bit earlier on my list this year than I'm used to.

But part of the part of it. is that in a class where there aren't a lot of players with a really defining quality, we've talked about Brady Martin, we've talked about Kishon. H.S. There really isn't a Cole Eiserman shooter in this class, for example. There isn't that big time shot. He's a kid who does have that defining quality. I think he's, him and Matthew Schaefer are for me, the best skaters in this draft. I've heard people list Cameron Schmidt in that conversation, but I think Cullen's even a cut

above a Cameron Schmidt or an L.J. Mooney, some of the guys who can really fly in this draft class. And I thought over the course of this season, he answered at least some of the concerns that people had about inconsistency in his game. Still came and went, but I thought he was much better in the second half for Arizona State, creating more of his own looks, getting to the inside more. I still think there are questions of whether he's going to be a perimeter speed guy in the NHL. But I think there are questions about a lot of guys once you get outside of the top 13 or 14 names in this draft. And I always go back to Frank Nazar, who went 13th. Nazar was a more competitive, more sort of consistent player in his draft year, drove the inside

more, but we're not talking about Colin Potter at 13th. We're talking about him in the late teens, sort of potentially even in the late first round or early on day two, depending on how the draft plays out. And I think in that range, there's not a guy who really, there's not a lot of guys who really excite you with an attribute that you think, okay, this is going to make some difference on an NHL sheet. And I think Potter has that in terms of not just the skating, but some legit skill, some playmaking. We'll see how it all translates. He's going to have to really pop in college over the next couple of years. But I think he's capable of doing that, capable of becoming a point per game player in college and then getting signed and then working his way

into a top nine role as a speed guy. I know Corey's used Fabian Wiesel a little bit, so that's where you would have your backup a little bit because Liesel doesn't look like much of an NHL player at this stage. But I think somewhere between Liesel and Nazar is where he belongs, and that's probably about where he's going to get picked as well. Corey, do you think he helped himself going to college this year?

Maybe. I think he would have been one of the best players in the program if he stayed. He did a good year in college. you know, I don't know if it was a fantastic year, but it was a good year. You played major minutes on a respectable team. My concern on Colin, it's just more the projection. It's tough when you're that size. And even though I think he is an elite skater with a really high skill level,

when you're like a 510, barely 510 guy who's kind of a perimeter forward, it's tough to get excited about that at the NHL level unless your talent is just off the charts good and I think his skating reaches that level. I don't know about the skill. I think it's good, not elite. I definitely think his hockey sense is playmaking can be average at times. So I do just worry about what that ultimately looks like in the NHL. You know, my current comparison for him is Anthony Duclair,

in that I just kind of seem as like this really talented, offensive player who I would bet on being on five to six teams before his career is over, more than being a legit top six forward who's going to play major men. and it's on a competitive team. Two more smaller guys I wanted to ask you about in relation to one another. Corey, you have Cam Schmidt at 34 on your list. LJ. Mooney's at 102. They're both smaller guys, both good skaters.

At U18s, I felt like Mooney was a way more important player. Now, granted, the supporting cast not as good as Canada's. But I like Mooney quite a bit better than Schmidt at that event. I was surprised to see the gap as wide as it was for those two. What kind of explains that for you? A little bit of the track record plays into that. I don't disagree with the Mooney was outstanding at the U-18s. But he is a real, legit 5-7.

Cam Schmidt actually measured at the Combine closer to 5-8, which doesn't seem that significant, but at that size, every inch matters. And I think they're both tremendous skaters with a lot of skill, but I thought Mooney, Mooney makes a lot, made a lot happen when you watch. this year, but the production ever really came at any real point. And I think it was, I think with Schmidt, his shot is so good that there's at least a path

where you're like, okay, I could see him being, you know, a third line winger, a second power play guy who can score, give you 20 goals, even if he's going to really frustrate you with his decision making and maybe not being, you know, the size, just, you know, effort goes in and out sometimes. And he can drive his, you know, his team a little crazy. Whereas because Mooney, I look at him, but I kind of wonder, like, well, who in the NHL looks like this? You know, he's a fantastic skater. He's got skill, but it's not elite skill, and he doesn't really bring a ton of offense. So it's kind of like a fourth line, third line, penalty killing rule, maybe at a 5-7, it's, it's very difficult.

So that was just my argument. I don't disagree with you. I thought Mooney was, I mean, Mooney's been one of the best players in his age group for a very, very long time. It's just about ultimately what that translates to in the NHL, and I just have a hard time. with him. I had the same thing as I had a hard time with Adam Benak. I just don't really, I feel like Schmidt at least has a clearer lane to, even if it's not a guarantee by any means. All right, let's take a quick break right there. We're going to come back and we're going to

talk about this class versus the 2024 draft class. All right, I want to close today, Corey, with a PC head run this morning, comparing the top of the 2024 draft to the top of this class. And I think we've talked about, obviously, that this class has been framed in kind of a down year. Going through this exercise, what were kind of some of your takeaways? Yes, it's been framed by plenty of people, including myself. I have called it a below average draft in my writing. But as the year has gone on, I've been less inclined to call it that, or at least with as much certainty. I still think there's plenty of really good players in this draft.

You know, you go back to last year's draft, I feel like you'd much rather have a pick in the top six to ten. in last year's draft, given how deep 2024 draft was. You'd rather have a top five pick of the dozen and 23 draft because the high end of that draft was just so special. And with guys like Fentan, Fantilly, Leo Carlson, my fan, Mitchikov, Will Smith, you know, at the top of that forward group.

Obviously, Mitch got up later that's a whole... But anyways, but... But that being said, I still like this group quite a lot. And I still think if you line them up to last year's top 10 picks, it still, they look quite favorable. In fact, I think when I did like the, whatever it was, if you looked at the top 12, top 13 players in this exercise, that's comparing the top 10 projected players in this year's draft

to the top 10 guys picked in last year's draft, I think it was like six or seven of the guys in this year's draft were in the top 11 or 12. So I still think, I do believe if you have a top seven, top eight pick this year, you are really excited by the quality of forger getting it. You were getting a guy who looks like an all-day top two line forward with a chance for a number of them to be first line forwards,

I would guarantee we get at least one, if not two, first line centers out of this draft. I don't know who they are going to be. This is different than a Macklin celebrating your Connor Bedard draft. You're like, that's the guy, and maybe there's some other guy. But I feel like in this draft, we got six, seven really good center prospects, and chances are one or two of them are going to become a legit star, even if they're all kind of in this group together.

We don't really know which one is going to emerge. So that was one of the main takeaways for me. That being said, one of the things that distinguished last year's draft was how deep it was. I'm sorry, I must be boring, Scott. He just yawned in all over faces while I was talking. Early wake-ups with toddlers here at the Wheeler household. So it's not a slight. Is that how deep last year's draft was, is I think a year later, you would argue Sam Dickinson,

who went 11th and Zev Boyam, who went 12, would arguably be among the top. five or so prospects in the 2024 draft and they would deserve to be higher up in this exercise but they didn't qualify so that was one thing I took away from it but still plenty of guys were pretty high up there I think I had you know Ivan Demandov was third

after Macklin Sellebrini and Matthew Schaefer you know left Shunov was still you know comfortably in the in the top 10 Berkeley Catton who looked outstanding this year I've been a big fan of you know for you know going back to last year he was in the top 10 So there's still plenty of guys from that 2024 draft who were represented high in there. But I still think the 2025 draft is competitive, even if maybe it lacks the true, true elite star power or depth of star power. Well, you talked about Levshanov and certainly, like you said, still comfortably in the top 10.

But you also have Demadov higher. And if I'm a Chicago fan and I hear that, I get a little queasy. Like, I mean, should Chicago fans be feeling a little bit of what if there? Well, I think we always knew going to last year's draft that after Celebrini, there was no sure thing after that. There was no guy that everyone in the league had a two, and Chicago went way off the board to take a left shoot off. It was really mixed opinions. there were people in the league that had Lefshunov at two, that had Kainelim at two, that had Demadov at two, that had Kat had two, that had a bollum at two, that had Yakk and Chuck had two. Like, these were the conversations I was having leading up to the draft.

You know, there was, sure, there were guys like Demadov and Lev Shunov that had much bigger camps of supporters. But that was the draft last year. And it doesn't surprise me a year later, the order changes a little bit. And we get to the case now where, yes, I have Lev Shudov. I think in this exercise, he'd be fourth in this draft. I probably, if I included Zeev and Dickinson, maybe he'd be fifth or something like that. But it's, but it's a more interesting conversation. But I don't think it's, I mean, Lefshuov had a really tough first half in the American League.

It's just the reality, you know, and he was much better in the second half and he looked good in the NHL. But Demadol just was outstanding all year. You know, even with his up and down minutes in the KHL, he was just fantastic. He looked impressive when he would came over to the NHL there at the end. played the playoffs from Montreal. You can still have reasonable arguments, just like we had many arguments this time last year about this draft class,

and I'll show up because Scott Yon just again just now. But I wouldn't qualify yet as them screwing up because I feel like we can get a year from now and things could change yet again, because it's still closely grouped. One last thing. I always find interesting when there's similar players, class to class, right?

And you talked about one of them in Berkeley, Caton, who there is some run. to James Hagen's with. I mean, they're both smaller centers, but very fast, very competitive. I think you have them pretty close together on this list, right? Yeah, within a couple of spots. So I'm just curious, like Scott, I mean, I know you're a big James Hagan's guy. Like, how different do you feel Katton is from Hagen's? I think there are a lot of similarities in terms of the size, the profile of the skater and the way that they handle the puck.

I would say that Berkeley does it in maybe a little bit more of a direct way, more of finisher that way. But there are a lot. And then they're both extremely crafty, creative, sort of clever players on the puck. They both think the game at a very high level, both somewhere between 510 and 511. There's, I think Higgins is probably going to play actually a little bit heavier than Berkeley. And Berkeley's a strong kid, but Higgins, I think, is going to play sort of around 190 and Berkeley's probably going to be in the 180s.

But it's a very, very, I think that'll be an interesting conversation moving forward, even though they're not in the same draft class. I think there are a lot of lines to draw between those two players. If they both end up in the Western Conference, they may end up playing in playoff games or big moments against one another, that kind of a thing. So I would probably still have Hagen's, like if they're one or two spots apart for Corey,

I would imagine that we're probably flipped. If Corey has cat in one or two spots ahead, I'd probably have Higgins, one or two spots ahead. But I think it's very, very close between those two. How would you have Misa, compare to Demadov? I would probably, because Misa's a center, probably also lean Misa.

But as, I mean, you just talked about the conversation we had a year ago. I had Demadov, too, on my board. So I think that's another one where it would be very, very, very close for me. I'm a big, big, big believer in Ivan Demadov. And from a pure skill grade, Demadov in terms of on the puck, puck on his stick inside the offensive zone, There's more of a dynamic one-on-one quality to Demadov's game. But I think there's every bit the competitiveness and the two-way play in Michael Misa, and one of them's a center who's 6-1.

And Misa's a better skater. And I ended up with Demadov actually just a mildly ahead of Misa on this exercise. So let that be a record of note for the Montreal fans listening, that Scott is the Habs hater on this podcast. Let it also be known that Corey has joined Scott on the Ivan Demadov train. All right. kinds of record corrections here as we end the show that's going to do it for us a lot more prospect coverage common draft coverage coming this is just a small sample of what we've had these guys have

been cranking out a ton of stories for you guys to read and i hope you do go to the athletic and read them obviously you can catch sean and haley tomorrow on the athletic hockey show talking about game four we'll talk to you soon