The Athletic Hockey Show - What can the NHL’s final four teams teach us?

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

There are only four teams remaining in the Stanley Cup Playoffs and every franchise would love to be there next season. So, what lessons can be learned about roster construction from each of the conference finalists? Plus, the guys discuss Anton Frondell as one of the most interesting players in the draft class and the potential for chaos this summer with the CHL-NCAA transfer window in full effect.Hosts: Max Bultman and Corey PronmanWith: Scott Wheeler and FloHockey’s Chris PetersExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside the athletic Scott Wheeler and Corey Prondman and Flow Hockies, Chris Peters, for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Fun show on tap today. We're going to be talking about some of the lessons from the Final Four teams remaining in the Stanley Cup playoffs. We're going to go deep on Anton Frundel, one of the most interesting and possibly most divisive players in this 2025 NHL draft class. And then we're going to get into what's been a little bit or what looks. like it could be a little bit of a chaotic summer on the college hockey front, obviously the new rule changes. That's all to come. But let's start, Corey, with your article that came out this

week on the lessons to take away from the four teams remaining in the Stanley Cup playoffs. You know, I'll just turn it to you. What were some of your big takeaways? Yeah. So all I did basically was look at who the key players are on the teams that were remaining. By key players, I don't mean key players. If you look at the rosters as an abstract, because Mera Hayeskid and Jason Robertson didn't really play much for Dallas in these playoffs. We're looking at who helped these four teams get to where they are today. And, you know, there's some major differences among the players. But I noticed two key themes.

And I think these key themes are not just this year. When I've looked at this exercise for a couple of years now, I've definitely noticed a trend in that first, in terms of defensemen, a lot of these teams' blue lines look very similar. to each other and that there's a lot of size, there's a lot of mobility, there's a lot of toughness. And even though I wouldn't say

they're all like dynamic offensive players, there is still, everybody can make a pass. Even like what you would describe as they're more prolific offensive players, such as in the case of Carolinas, Shane Gossespaire, he is not really a guy. They lean on for the major minutes

and especially at even strength. The outlier in that case would be Evan Bouchard and Edmund But I think the way Edmonton's team is built is really, you know, just truly unique in that, you know, just the way that power play functions, the way their team functions. It's one of the most top heavy teams I've ever seen in my time watching the NHL in terms of how their team operates. But for the most part, you go through Florida's blue line, Carolina's blue line, Dallas is blue line, even Edmonton's blue line outside of Bouchard. It's a bunch of big, mobile physical guys. Well, you get to the forwards, though, there's a lot more deviation.

A lot of different ways. You have the Edmonton Star Group. You have Florida's group, which is a bunch of just pricks who are hard to play against that are two-way guys. You have Carolinas, which with us Blake and Jarvis and Stankovin, you know, small, super competitive players. And then you kind of have Dallas, which is basically driven by those really key players that played monster rules to them and Obsy Miko ran to them with his side.

eyes and his skill have been a really an impact for Dallas. I would say what's interesting, you look at a lot of those four groups. One thing that definitely jumped at me in terms of any similarity between all of them is I think when you look through some of them, you have like Rupert Hints, obviously McDavid, etc.

But I don't think there's a lot of truly elite skaters among these top top players. Like Ranton is not an elite skater, Johnst is not an elite skater, Reinhardt's not an elite skater, Barcom, I wouldn't call an elite skater. Drys title is not an elite skater. But they have all these other elements, the skill, the hockey sense, the work ethic that I think these teams have shown.

I've seen it for years. Because quite frankly, it's been the same couple of teams in the conference finals and finals every couple of years here. But that you don't really need to be elite skating forward to make an impact in the NHL playoff. And Scott, you know, some of these are things that we do know, right? We know teams love big defensemen. I think that speed point is really interesting that Corey just made. What I want to know from you is how much do you think teams are looking at this kind of, doing the same kind of analysis as they prepare for their own drafts.

A lot of teams having their scouting meetings right around this time of year. Well, I think it's a copycat league in a lot of ways at the NHL level in terms of how rosters are constructed, but I think it's a copycat league in a lot of ways as well at the amateur scouting level in terms of the way that teams are prioritizing, especially those lengthy mobile defensemen. We've seen a pretty stark shift over the last few years. It's been that way for 50 years, length on the blue line, 40, 50 years, since there started to be 6 foot 3, 6 foot 4 defensemen in the league.

We've seen it trend that way. It was that way in the 80s. It was that way in the 90s. But there was a period coming out of, I think, both of the lockouts where the pendulum seemed to swing back the other direction a little bit. And then there's always that counter-correction to where I think we're at right now, which is length, length, length, especially on the blue line. I think the game has changed in terms of the way that a top 12 forward group is constructed.

I think the Dallas Stars are a perfect example of that. I think the Carolina Hurricanes are a very good example of that. We don't have the typical top six, bottom six that we had in the NHL for many, many decades. That doesn't really exist in the league anymore. Those roles in terms of whose penalty killer, like Connor McDavid's often a penalty killer now. Mitch Marner is a penalty killer. Austin Matthews is a penalty killer. The roles that were really crystallized and entrenched for a long, long time,

those up front, I think, have changed over the years. But certainly on defense, it feels like there's a real mold. And you talk to amateur scouts. You see the way that the draft plays out. I think we're going to see, Corey and I just did a two-round mock this week. Peyton Kettles, Jacob Brombach, these sort of big, big kids who maybe don't have the offense that you would typically see in us. second round pick, for example, they're going in that range.

And sometimes they even sneak into the first round range just because of the priority and the emphasis that NHL clubs are putting on those premiums. So I think increasingly it's trending that way. Logan Stanley, Brandon Carlo, Eric Chernak, you look around the league nowadays. There's a lot of players in that same mold. And I think what you're going to see in a lot of those meetings is teams will be asked, when they're talking about players, they're passionate about it. about players, I think, are going to help their team win hockey games, win playoff rounds.

You'll come up, well, who's left? Who's left playing in the playoffs right now? That looks like this player. And, you know, it's hard enough to make NHL comparisons when you have all 32 teams. I struggle to think of calm sometimes. It's even harder when you go down to four teams. But you can start making some abstractions. Is it unreasonable to connect Matthew Schaefer, say, to Seth Jones?

I don't think that's a crazy comparison to make. Is it unreasonable to connect Michael Misa to Sebastian Ajo? I don't think that's a crazy connection to make. You know, then you have some two-way players like Dinoje and Frondel. You know, you can try and think. I don't know if there's a perfect comp for them left. Maybe like Jordan Stahl would be something like that. Maybe that might not be a perfect fit.

Porter Martone, I've thought of maybe. Maybe he's Sam Ryanhard. Maybe he's Miko Ranton. I don't think he's quite either of them, but he's maybe a blend of that in some regard. And, you know, with James Hagan's, we've had a conversation on the last show about, you know, what does Hagan's look like at the top level? Does this game translate to the playoffs? But I think you can make a pretty reasonable argument that there's a lot of rhyme between Matt Dushain and James Higgins.

And Dushan has kind of had some arcs in his career, but he's had a resurgence. here in Dallas. He was their leading score this year, and he's been a really important player for them in the playoffs. Yeah, Doucher, a guy who's obviously been bought out at a certain point, and that's not what you're going to want to hear. But when you look at what he's doing right now, I think he was the Dallas Star's leading scorer during the regular season on one of the best teams in the NHL. And that's certainly the kind of thing that gets you excited about a player that you could take in the top five in a James Higgins, Chris. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that they're, to me, I think you just have to look at how.

How do they actually play, right? You know, I mean, I think in James Hagan's case, you know, we've talked a lot about kind of whether the size factor and different things like that. But I still think that he has a drive. He has a compete level that works. And I think you can't get by without that in the modern, in the modern NHL. And so, you know, I just think that there's a lot of, like, I think what Corey's saying there, especially like with Dushain, where sometimes you say, okay, well, maybe his not. his compete isn't always 100% there. Or maybe he's not, you know, maybe he doesn't have that killer instinct.

Well, I think, you know, as time goes on, those players, if they have a base of that and that incredible skill that we've seen that, you know, that Duchain has always had throughout his career, you know, you can find a way to make an impact. So, you know, I think as I've gotten, as I've done this more and I look at playoff teams and I look at players relative to, you know, who's remaining. You know, it's not exactly a practice that I do a ton just because I think that we've seen so many examples of players over various years find a way. And finding those players and who's going to find a way is really, really difficult.

But I think there's a, the one thing that is fairly constant among those players, among the at this time of year. If a team has to pull, compete, work ethic, effort out of you, you are not going to survive in the league. You're not going to. And so as a player that's a prospect, it should be at this stage of your career where you are one of the most relied upon players on your team

and somebody that is worth being drafted this high, you have to be, you have to have those elements in your game in order to be an effective player. So, you know, but it's interesting. You think about the things that Corey said about, you know, well, is skating that, you know, is being an elite skater that important? You know, different things like that, you say, okay, but there's one thing that we'll never, ever say isn't important. And it's that effort and compete level. Yep, I'd agree with that.

I think you look at the core players on all the teams. I don't think I spotted one guy whose compete was an issue. There's been times over the years where I've gone through that choice and you maybe find one player. of all the teams, but for the most part, they all at least check that box. On the skating front, too, I think the assumption amongst fans and whether it's us in the print,

sort of the print side of media or broadcast media, the assumption is always that the game gets faster as the playoffs progress. And I think Corey's point is interesting because I've never been sure that that's true. I actually think it gets even more into the muck and the mud and the game slows down and its battles. and the put, despite the fact that the hockey teams are better, the puck bounces around,

the puck gets slapped around. And so that's where the speed almost gets stripped out of it by structure, by the size of the teams that are remaining, and just by the way that playoff hockey is scored and the sort of simplicity of it, if you will, in terms of teams dumbing down their styles at different times in the game. So I think that, to Corey's point, that's an interesting point. And I hadn't considered that the actual players might not be there. I think the game slows down in the playoffs at times,

but I hadn't considered that maybe the McLeod's and the Kisperi Kappanins and that sort of that player tech, the foodies, those guys that have that premium speed piece, maybe there's not actually as much value as people think there is in having that on your roster. I'd have to flesh it out more. This is just me sort of thinking out loud here, but I think that is potentially an interesting takeaway.

Max and I had a good conversation before the show about how this draft class might compare to the 2009 draft. Because when you think of Matt Dushain, when we're talking about him versus Hagan's, you know, Matt Dushain's career has definitely had some serious ups and downs with more of an up of late. But you look back of the 2009 draft, he's undoubtedly a top 10 player in that draft. might even be a top second in the draft class in scoring as it stands right now. You kind of look through that draft and there's some analogies. You look, you know, I think headman would go 1-1 in that draft. Then you probably, you know, I think Tavares and Mesa skating are way different from each other. But you have like that dominant junior O'HL centerman.

And then you kind of have, you know, Brad and Shen and Ryan O'Reilly as the next probably two players there. You can make the analogies to Dinoje and Frondell. And then you might have a player like as the super-sum. skilled center or winger or whatever he ends up becoming in Duchenne, which you can now analogize to Hagen's. So I think when we talk about Hagan's and the concerns, I think there's never any concerns about whether, you know, it's not about whether he's an awesome player or not. It's just about whether would you prefer Ryan O'Reilly or Braden Shed or would you prefer

Matt Dushain? I think it's a good conversation. Which would you, which way would you lean on that, Chris? I'm curious. I mean, Dushain and, you know, he's having a great run right now. He could get there this year. O'Reilly and Shen won a cup together in St. Louis. Dushain's kind of outscored him, but they've all been really important players on good teams at various points.

Yeah, I mean, I think it kind of depends on where what you have in your system at that point. If you're making that pick, you know, I think, you know, and what you value, I think, yeah, if you're, if you're looking at it one to one, the Ryan O'Reilly versus a Matthew Shane, you're taking, you know, Ryan O'Reilly, who over the course of his career has had. more of those those opportunities to be, you know, an important player for really good teams. And not to interrupt, but Ryan O'Reilly, who is objectively one of the slowest top of the lineup players in the league to the conversation that we were just having. Yeah, exactly. I mean, and I think, you know, Corey bringing up the 09 draft and you guys talking about that, I love that, you know, now that you've said that and just thinking about it. it is kind of amazing how similar it may be and how much the conversation changes over time for these players where, you know, Duchenne, that top three was so clearly locked in, it felt like, where that, you know, scouts who had Doussena one.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, like, that was, that was a kind of an incredible, incredible way to look at it. But, you know, I think for me, you know, those decisions, where it's like, okay, well, the Ryan O'Reilly type versus the Matt Dushan type, you know, just for whatever teams are picking in that range, it's kind of all about what else do you have in your system? Like, because I do think that there, you can't find Ryan O'Reilly players everywhere. You can't. But I do think there's a scarcity to the Matt Dushan type player that's going to get 800 points in a career.

that's going to have that kind of level of impact. And that said, I mean, like, you know, like, yeah, again, if you're doing a redraft, it's pretty easy, I think, to go with O'Reilly. And how many teams have thought they were bringing in, you know, Ryan O'Reilly analog only to get not close to, like, Ryan O'Reilly level? Right. Like, you think you're bringing in this great defensive center. And it turns out, yeah, he's just, he's a good defensive center.

He's only going to give you 40 points. And you're going to pay him like Ryan O'Reilly enjoy. Yeah, and how many times do we see a Ryan O'Reilly type that we are actually talking about as a top five pick? He went in the second round, I believe, right? Didn't he go in the second round? And he, yeah, he was 33rd overall in that class. I think Braden Shen might be the better analogy in their regard. That's a good point.

Like, there's a lot of people trying to get that, that Braden Shen type. And, you know, there was a long, you know, you could even say, should he have been the fifth, you know, like in a redraft, does he go fifth overall? I mean, it's certainly possible. I mean, he's a kind of guy that has a lot of value in the league, but in terms of pure production, not close to either of those two players. There's probably a similar conversation to have about the old sort of Nugent Hopkins, Taylor Hall, that sort of know-how versus the ranging North South skater, certainly Taylor Hall's highs in his career, at least in the regular season in terms of being in the MVP

conversation once and that kind of thing are higher than the highs of Ryan Nugent Hopkins, but would you maybe take Ryan Nugent Hopkins in terms of building a competitive playoff roster and the way that he operates on the ice maybe a little bit differently from the more predictable sort of straight lines game that Hall has played his whole career? That's a good question because I think, like,

I also look back at their, at their, like, what they were when they were young, too, and how hard it is to predict that, like, I think if you were to ask me at the time, I would take Taylor Hall, 10 times out of 10 in that discussion. But with hindsight, I think that it's fewer than 10 times out of 10 that I would take him. Just because we see the versatility that Nugent Hopkins built into his career and in the different roles that he could play.

I mean, it's a fascinating discussion to have. And these are the discussions that we will have about this class down the road. I mean, there's just so many unknowns. And it just goes to show you how difficult it is and how there's such a lack of certainty and what we're actually going to see. out of these guys. One thing to note, though, when I was going through this exercise, just looking at, particularly the wingers and the centers, Carolina drafted Ahio. They drafted Fesnikov, Stahl was an external lad, etc.

Jarvis and Blake were all draft. I think the way they built their team was very ideal, but they drafted Johnson and Hince. Ranton and Granlin Duchet were all external lads. Edmonton, you know, Hyman and Brown were external ads Florida, Reinhardt for Hagee, Mershant and Bennett were all external ads. Barkov is the only key guy they added. I think for the most part you go through these teams, the centers, they drafted, and the wingers, on average, tend to be external ads.

It's a great point. I mean, and that's kind of why we see teams, I think, draft the centers because they're the harder ones to find. The wingers are, the reason that they traded for the wingers is the wingers become available for trade, right? Kachucks his own situation. I think that was, he's available because he chose to be available. available, but in a lot of those other cases,

and Reinhardt, I think you could probably say to a similar degree, but a lot of those other cases, the wingers are out there, the centers are not. One more thing I wanted to go to on the skating note, Corey, because you mentioned that there's not all these elite skaters, and I'm thinking through my head, and in past seasons, it does feel like, you know, whether it's McKinnon and McCar,

Natchewskine, I think, a really good skater. Like, there have been teams that have gone really far on that. But in a lot of those cases, it's heavy speed, right? Like, it's speed that's going to bang you against the, the boards below the goal line. not just it's about rush offense. It's about speed and power specifically. Yeah, I agree with that.

And like I said, I think every player who I think you find as core players in the playoffs will have a really strong compete level, can play with physicality. Maybe they're not naturally physical players. They can at least handle it. I would maybe disagree a little bit

with Scott said earlier. I still think the playoffs are faster than the regular season, just from my observation. I don't think it's dramatic, but I definitely think that's just from what I've observed. I think there is definitely a little bit of a pace increase.

And I definitely would still think that you probably would prefer to have better skaters and not better skaters. You prefer to have bigger guys and small guys. Prefer to have highly skilled guys to average skilled guys. But when you're picking in the top five, top 10, you don't get to say, I like to have all the above. You have to make hard decisions. You have to pick between different player types.

and don't get to go back. I think we're all having a conversation about the Leafs right now just because it's fun to some extent. And, you know, when they drafted their core, they drafted Riley, they drafted Matthews, they drafted Marta, they drafted Neelander, and they kind of committed to that core.

And it wasn't, because it's hard to move key players. It's blockbuster trades don't happen that often. And when you commit to those type of, those player types, those traits, you're committing to them potentially for 10 to 15 years. So you want to make absolutely sure you made the right decision, even though you'd always prefer to get upgrades in different ways. Yeah, maybe the difference, Corey, on what you were saying,

you and Scott were saying, it's a speed of the decision making. You don't have much time when you have the puck. But I think, to Scott's point, less rush offense, less like speed-dictated game is probably the distinction. All right, Corey, you did have another article this week that I want to try to get some more discussion out of. And that's on Anton Frundell. And I'll let you set the stage with this, but he does appear like he's shaping up to be one of the more interesting players at the top of this draft class.

Yeah. And he's interesting in part just because of the different opinions I'm hearing on him around the league. And you even kind of see these different opinions kind of leaking out into public discourse about him to some extent. And plenty of prospects are going to have different opinions on them. We're not all going to agree on Michael Mesa. We're not all going to agree on James Hagen's, you know, as you've seen from the last week or two. We're not all going to agree on where Porter Martone fixer Jake O'Brien or who this, you know, Red and Merchka or whatever.

Like, we all have some variance of thought. However, I think Frontell is interesting because I think the people who are really bullish on this player would argue he is the top forward in this draft. He is superior to Michael Misa, to James Higgins, to Porter Martone. He, there are actually a number of people I talk to in the league who have him as their top forward. and there's a number of people I talked to in the league who have them as like their fifth forward who don't see it even in that top tier conversation

and who have, you know, and the people who are really bullish on this player will argue he's a guy who dominated against men in terms of just need not dominate it because he got kind of, his eyes time got cut there towards the end of the year, but in terms of what he produced this year, the impact he had on a team that got promoted to the SHS. He was an important player for them during the regular season

scored at really high levels against men comparable to what several NHL stars have done in the Ausfanskin at the same age. And, you know, he's got a good size center, he's physical, he has offense, he's a good skater, there's just so much to like about this player. And, you know, you hear the name, Anzei Kopitar thrown a lot with him, whether just because Kopitar played in Sweden

in his draft year, it's hard to say. I think there's some distinction between the two players, but that's what the bull argument is for Kopitar. The people who are less optimistic about him will wonder about whether he's an elite playmaker. They don't think the hockey sense rises to the premier level. They point to various international tournaments over the course of the year as times where he's not really made a big impact,

not just the recent U18 Worlds where he played four games, but plenty of tournaments throughout the year. And they just, they don't not like the player, but instead of a first line center, they see maybe more of a second line center in the NHL, a really good player, but they maybe don't see the special traits in his game outside of his shot.

And I think for that reason, he becomes one of the most interesting players because I could see a, I could do a mock draft where he goes two. And I wouldn't, like, if the sharks take him a two, I'm not going to blink. But if he gets to like six,

I also don't think it's crazy either. I think we would say that of a Michael Mesa. I think everyone in this room would think it's kind of crazy if he's there at five or six. But I don't think it's insane to say that about Anton Ferrandell. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable taking Anton at 2, 3, 4 at this point. The way that I've settled on my list and thought about it over the course of the year, I don't think he's as strong as skater as you suggested there. I think the IQ issues are real.

I think there are questions as great as he was in the Al Spencekin regular season and for a stretch of play and even in a couple of international showings this year in the year prior. I think there are legit questions to ask about using a top, top, top pick on Anton Frundel. But yet, I think literally every team in the top five

is seriously going to debate this player. Just because I think there are some really unique things. And he is to our last discussion, this is the guy you win with is going to come up a lot, whether we agree what this is where he belongs or not. And he was

part of a your garden team that won. They're going to get promoted to the SHL, and I'm not going to give him all the credit for it, but he played a big role on that team. And yet, every time we do a mock draft, his teammate who played more, dropped out of the top 10, but that's a whole other issue. You talked about the international tournaments, and what that kind of rang a bell in my mind back to Elias Patterson. Different stylistic profile of player, but this was another player who was excellent on the all-svanskin and developed a reputation as a guy who in international tournaments left you wanting a little more. Now, there's all kinds of conversations we could have here about how Elias Pets. Pedersen's career has played out. But do you see a similarity in how they're being kind of discussed?

I think the information is similar. I think stylistically the difference. I think Pedersen skating was a significant issue for me, a really knock-kneed skater. And I think his compete has ever really been a selling point. I don't think anybody doubts that Anton Ferundel competes. I think that's one of his strongest assets. It's just more about, I feel like when the puck isn't getting near him or being fed to him to get used his shot. there are sometimes games where he just doesn't always seem to jump out at you.

Whereas I think Pedersen was his more, he got knocked around a little bit. But I think in terms of how you interpret the information, I think that's perfectly fair. And as their careers have progressed, Chris, like, you know, the inconsistency turned out to be a mainstay in Pedersen's game. It didn't go away when he got to the NHL. Yeah, I mean, that's the hardest part. I think it's part of what makes Frontel such a difficult player to evaluate because as we've seen, his best games are exceptional.

His best games, his best moments as a player say that he can be elite. And we have seen that even from Elias Pedersen in the NHL. We have seen him be one of the top players in the league, a high-end goal score, but, you know, and a guy that makes a lot of plays. And yet, now we're looking, Ken, how do you feel about that player as a core player in your team? if you don't know what you're going to get. And I think that's the concern. The risk with Frundel is that this consistency could suggest, you know, potential issues

with overall hockey sense, potential issues with game-to-game preparedness, readiness. I think there has been a discussion about his fitness levels, too, from some people, about, you know, where he is in terms of his strength and conditioning, even though he does have the size and the thickness and the things that you do like to see. I think that there have been teams that are going to be very curious to see what happens at the combine in terms of his physiological makeup and different things like that. And they were very curious about that for Elias Pedersen as well for very different reasons. The opposite end of the spectrum. Yeah, the opposite end, like, you know, where it's like, oh my gosh, is this guy actually, could he play in the NHL?

Will he hold up in the NHL because he was so real thin? You know, there are all those different things. So it is what makes to me, Anton Frundel very risky in terms of this idea. But I also agree more with Corey in that it would not surprise me to see him go in the top three of this draft. And I think that the team that is drafting him is drafting him on what he is at his best. Whether you believe he can sustain that over a long period of time, that's maybe they say, well, our development team is going to get him. We know how we can get that out of them.

We know where we can, you know, and that stuff that comes out in interviews, that stuff that would come out in, you know, at the combine talking about like not interviews with us, but interviews with the team. There are going to be a lot. He'll be a very scrutinized player at this stage of the season because of all the reasons that we've mentioned

that provide that level of risk. But if you say that top level is what we think, will get us over the top, if he can sustain that, we're willing to roll the dice on that top level. The people who love him think he's a 30-goal, 70-point matchup centerman. And I'm not sure I would go all the way there, but there's enough people out there who believe it that I think it's, is I think there's going to be some real interesting debates about him.

Because I think you'll even see, like, within, like, on the same staffs, I think there'll be people who will be on very opposite ends of the spectrum on this player. So I think it's where he lands will be fascinating, quite frankly. On the conditioning and fitness side of this, like I might be a little weird on this, Scott, but I hear that and I think, oh, great, that means it's even more raw.

That means there's more in there to be tapped into, right? Like I almost would view that maybe not as an outright positive, but at least as an opportunity. Yeah, certainly an opportunity, but some guys, they just do carry a little bit more of that baby fat in there. Like, you talk to strength and conditioning. I've spoken with strength and conditioning coaches

about a lot of those players over the years, And some guys, they just struggle to keep weighed off. And suddenly they're in their 30s and they're 20 pounds heavier than they should be. And it just becomes a difficult thing for their body over the course of a thousand games in a career. And so I think it can go both ways. Certainly if you get in, if you work your tail off and get into better shape, that's a huge plus. That's a huge development opportunity for you.

And Anton also has, I'm not trying to label Anton is out of shape here. But he was also injured for a good chunk of this season. So I think a little bit of that in terms of the way that he looked, the pace that he played at when he first got back, some of that sort of quote unquote fat that he carries in his face, all of those things that people have talked about over the course of this season. I think part of that was just being off and not being as active as you would be over the course of a typical season. So maybe next year he plays all year, burns some of that during the season kind of thing and he's in a better position moving forward. But it can go, it does at times go the other direction with guys who just, it's something that they have to, deal with for their whole career in the same way that Elias Pedersen and i remember talking to

conor brown when he was with the eriottors connor brown could not for the life of him add weight no matter how much he ate no matter how much he worked out he was going to be 160 pounds he thought he was going to be 160 pounds for the rest of his life kind of thing and obviously Connor has hasn't been that in the n hl in the in the latter stages of his career but that was like a 10 or 15 year journey for connor brown to try to add eight pounds and it can go the other direction for for players at the other end of the spectrum. So that's what the combine's all about. It's what they,

I mean, they learn about these kids' families and where they come from. And Jack Ivan Kovic is going to be telling everybody that his dad's six, five at the combine that he has big feet and big hands and he's going to grow. And Lane Hudson was bringing test scores to medical test scores to combine. Like, we've heard all the stories, right?

So it's a, it's a big part of what the combine is about. And I don't think the combine is the be all and end all in just about anything with these players. But that more than anything to me is what the Combine is all about. It's finding out the makeup of these kids in many cases. All right. Let's take a quick break right there. We're going to come back and talk some college hockey. All right, we're back.

And I want to talk to all of you guys about the college hockey. I mean, we've talked about this since the rule came down, right? That Ontario Hockey League, Western Hockey League, QMJHL players, the CHL players right now for the first time going to be eligible to have players go from those leagues into college hockey. It was never allowed before. in uncharted territory, Corey. And I'm curious as this summer starts to pick up and we start to get closer to finding out

how big a sea change this is going to be, where does it kind of look like it's heading? Well, we've seen over the course the last few weeks, mid-round picks, late-round picks, have committed to schools. But that really has a movement needle. We've all kind of been wondering, you know, when do the first round picks?

Start going, guys who've already been drafted in the first round and guys who will be first round picks will start going. And you've seen Katie Lindstrom's probably going to go to Michigan State. We've seen Malcolm Spence officially announced. He's probably going to be a late first round pick this summer. He announced his commitment to Michigan. So then the question is not, is this going to happen? It's how many.

And I do think there are other guys who are going to be first round picks this summer out of the CHL who are talking to schools. However, I don't think all of them. them are going to school. I think they are exploring their options, but I at least know of several who explored their options and decided, no, I'm going to off the stay in the CHL and go play junior again next season. Now, I do expect there will be some who will leave and go to school, and for some of them, I would argue it's a good decision for them. But I also, I don't think the CHL is going to be a wasteland next season where you're not going to have a ton of really good

players in junior hockey. But it's going to look a little different. You're going to have, I think you're going to see some really good American players who might have gone USHL or NTP. You're going to, you might see them go to the CHL too. So I think there's going to be a little bit of crossover in that regard. But another thing I'm kind of hearing on this front, which is made something we didn't really talk about when the rule change came,

is one of the caveats in the rule change for when CHL players go to of college is you can't be signed with an NHL contract. They actually can go to camps. They could theoretically go to a rookie camp, but in reality, though, they can't sign and go back to school, which isn't a huge deal, but there's a lot of these kids that think they're NHL ready

or think they're close to NHL ready, or like at least the opportunity to play in preseason games and go through a camp and see if they can push it. And they have to make a decision on that. And Chris, I think that decision is going to have to happen rather soon after the draft. Yeah, it will because, I mean, I think that a lot of these teams are holding places. There are, the college teams, they're kind of trying to figure out there,

they may have to move other players around. The transfer portal is closing. So, you know, that's, that's another thing where players that, that, that, maybe they could clear out. It'll reopen again, but, you know, the players that they can clear out are not exactly, you know, going to be easier to move. So they have to keep these spots open with a lot of uncertainty. What I think is going to be interesting on that front, too, Corey, is when it comes to the discussion of signing an NHL contract, I do think in some cases the team is going to tell the player to go play college hockey. I think that they're going to be situate. And I've heard from players that are getting ready for the draft that are going to have some of these discussions. you know, I think that that's going to be a question at the combine. Would you be willing to go play college hockey for a year? Would you, you know, what, where would you, where do you envision that you're going to play next year? And so I do think that that's going to kind of be part of this whole dynamic.

But yes, those decisions are going to have to be made because these teams are starting to run out of the spots. I've also heard in addition to players that I've explored the college route from the CHL, what they are also finding is that they may not meet the eligibility. requirements to get in, whether it's class load, whether it is grades, whether it is just kind of whatever their transcript says, that's been another issue. So just because a player wants to go doesn't mean they automatically get in. Now, there are definitely some schools that are going to have different standards, but there is still a clearinghouse that these players have to go through to get eligible to play. And that's going to be part of this discussion.

So it's never as simple as I think that's the best route for me. I'm going to go that route. So there's a lot of that. But yes, I do think that we are going to probably go through a period maybe right after the combine where some of these players make their commitments known. And then I also think we're going to see another small, maybe larger group make that announcement after the draft when that's finalized. But we've seen a lot of players that have already.

already been drafted, make their commitments. And then, you know, I think some of these players are going to be big name players, players that everyone is familiar with. And it's going to make for an interesting landscape. So, you know, Scott, the one thing that I think, you know, you might also have some additional insight in is, is kind of the CHL reaction to all of this as well. Because that is, the thing is, is that, you know, it was all hunky dory when they started losing some of the guys that we're going to age out. And now they're realizing, oh, wait, we're going to lose guys a year, possibly two, before we expected to.

And so how is that kind of going on that side? Well, in there, there was a big disconnect early on. And I think there's still a disconnect between the way that NCAA clubs or programs are operating where recruiters at the major schools are basically leaving three or four of their roster spots open under the assumption that they're going to be able to add guys. in June or early July after they have those conversations that you alluded to

with their NHL clubs following the draft. On the flip side of it, in the early days, you reached out to, I reached out to dozens of general managers and coaches around the league

and they thought, oh, we'll just have to start building our teams around 18 and 19 year olds instead of 20-year-olds if we want to contend. Now I think they're going to have to come to terms

that it's 17 and maybe the odd 18-year-old kid post-draft in terms of the true, true premium kits. That doesn't mean, again, that everybody's going to be leaving

or that there's going to be this avalanche academics and getting your ducks in a row is part of it. I've spoken with agents and I've spoken with general managers who say look, my kids, a couple of the kids who everybody's talking about on my team don't have, they're not students, like they're not university students. They don't have the grades. It's either not of interest to them

or they wouldn't get into some of these schools. But on the flip side of it, you talk to agents about it. And the most common thing I've heard in the last couple of months on the junior side is that a lot of the kids originally said, I'm not interested. And then they started to see their buddies considering it. And they started to see the odd commitment popping up. And they started to hear about sort of movement from other players. And now there's this rush of, oh my God, I need to get transcripts in order. I need to figure this out. I need to

talk to schools. And now schools and agents are fielding calls from people who they're not even sure are serious because they spoke to them two months ago about this. And it was trepidating. and now they're getting calls back saying my kids into it. And a lot of the schools just want kids to make up their minds so that they can move on with their recruiting process. So it's a layered process that way where I think the kids and their parents didn't take it as seriously right away as they maybe should have. And as a result, they haven't been speaking about what's next.

And this sort of process as seriously as they probably should have been. And I think that's been frustrating for agents and schools in dealing with the kids and their parents through this process is that nobody has really made up their mind. And to your point, it's going to take conversations with NHL clubs post draft. And you mentioned that, not to belabor the point, but you mentioned that a lot of it will be NHL clubs telling players not to go. I think also some of it will be subtler than that where instead of trying to outwardly influence what these kids are doing, NHL clubs just aren't going to sign them. and that in and of itself is going to send the message. I think the three CHL kits this summer I'm most interested to see on whether they sign or not will be Michael Misa, who was named the MVP of the OHL,

Caleb Denauget, who just got named MVP of the Q playoffs, and Porter Martone, who's playing for Team Cannon right now at the Men's World Championships. I think you could make conceivable arguments for all three of those. them that they could at least handle the NHL next season in some capacity but you also could make the argument they may not all be fully ready

to be full-time NHL players yet but they don't get to test the waters and then decide to go to school after they got to make that decision for them and for the team that drafts them presumably with a really high pick is going to have

to happen very soon so I think those are all those are the ones in particular where I'm really interested to see what they end up doing this summer. In Martone and Misa's case, too, they've played three years to Dainway A's two of junior already.

So I think that those late birthdays are moving forward. And Malcolm Spence is another one, right? Those late birthdays are going to really have to strongly consider it. So basically there's not going to be a Carter Yakumchuk or Jetlucenko situation this year where a guy can,

I mean, they could if they're in the CHL. But in college hockey, you don't get that opportunity to go to training camp, try to prove yourself, Lochenko got NHL games, Yakumchuk made a heck of a run at that roster. If you commit to go to college, you're not going to do that for an NHL team. Correct. I do wonder if there might be some exceptions made to that. The expectation at most schools is that if you're coming, you're on campus in August and you show up in August when everybody else shows up in August. But I do wonder if you're a Mesa, for example, or if you're a land in DuPont at some point in the future,

I do wonder if there will be an exception to something like that that allows a couple of those kids to participate in camp. But I don't know. Participate in camp without an ELC is a very complicated thing. Yeah, the whole thing is once you sign that contract, that's it. Once you sign that NHL contract, you've received your signing bonus, you've gotten all that, it's over. And there's no path back. And so it's a bit of a gamble from the team, from the player, from everybody is like, all right, well, we think that they're not quite ready for the NHL full time, but we're going to give them a chance to make the team. And if that rule is still in place, if they do not make the NHL team, they're not going to stay with the NHL team, they cannot go to the AHL.

They have to go back to junior. And so a lot of people, the phrase that we've heard about the college option is that hybrid, where it's basically that. that stepping stone to pro, which is what is making it more palatable for players who feel like they may need a new challenge, which was not available to them before. So there's a, there are so many facets of the decision, the agents, the families, the player, the school, the NHL team. So there's this collection of influences that really makes these decisions more difficult. Don't forget the NIL money out there too. Yeah, exactly. And that's the other thing. So one thing I did want to bring up in this discussion, too, is how is this going to

impact the AHL, which is, you know, thinking they're going to get more of these 19-year-old players aging out of junior, whereas now they have that option to go to college and the ones that can make significant NIL money are going to actually be able to make more an NIL over the course of a full year, theoretically, than they would with their even the highest level entry-level contract, because they're not making an NHL salary in the AHL. They're making a fraction of that. So that's the other kind of discussion point that's going to come up here and something that the AHL is also going to have to get involved in.

And the CHL and HL agreement, like all of this is going to come into play. And we haven't even gotten to the draft rights discussion either. Where drafted out of the CHL, it's a two-year, drafted out of the NCAA path. It's a four-year. I do think that that'll get fixed in the next CLE. But still, it's not a new CBA yet. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And forgetting what this says about how NHL teams are going to approach it and how schools are approaching it and how CHL clubs are thinking about it. If I'm if I'm advising these kids like as frankly as I can, I think it's a better step to play NCAA hockey for almost all of the top kids. Kevin Korkinski would have benefited from it. Beckett Seneca would have benefited from it. Beckett Seneca would have benefited from it.

Sam Dickinson would have benefited from it. You go through a number of the kids that have been caught in limbo in the CHL. Matt Savoy would have benefited from it. You go down the list. It's now there aren't those jobs. There aren't enough roster spots at every single school. There aren't enough power play opportunities at all the schools that these kids want to play at. All of that is true.

And the CHL will hate me saying it. But there is, the college hockey level is a great fit for so many of these kids if they can consider it and they can take that step. And I think the potential pathway in terms of junior to NCAA to HL, whatever this pipeline ends up looking like, I think it will be a benefit to the players on the whole. And especially for the stars. Thanks for listening to this episode of the athletic hockey show prospect series. You can catch more of Chris over at Flohockey and on his podcast called. up. Lazz and I have you covered on Monday with the next episode of the F. F. F. F. F. Otakki Show. We'll talk to you soon.