The Athletic Hockey Show - What we’re hearing at the NHL Scouting Combine

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

With the full Prospect Series crew on location in Buffalo, New York for the NHL Scouting Combine, the guys discuss what they’re hearing from teams there. Plus, analyzing major decisions the top 7 teams are currently trying to make and listener questions in the mailbag to close out the show.Hosts: Max Bultman and Corey PronmanWith: Scott Wheeler and FloHockey’s Chris PetersExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Bulbin here alongside Corey Pranman, Scott Wheeler, and Flow Hockey's, Chris Peters, for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. This one live from the NHL Draft Combine in Buffalo. I think it's going to be a little less contentious show this week than what we had a week ago when we formed our consensus ranking. But, hey, we're only 30 seconds in. There's a lot of time for things to get weird. I want to start with some of the buzz we're hearing at the combine this week. So, Corey, let's go to you first here.

What are the biggest talking points you're hearing as you talk to teams and NHL personnel this week? A couple of things at the very top. I think we're kind of waiting for something to fan at first on Roger McQueen and what the doctors are saying when they get his physical exam done this week. I haven't heard anything conclusive in that regard. If I had anything I have heard has been more on the positive than the negative side, but I can't say that the league is conclusively clear on him and think everything looks fine in regards to his back injury, his multiple back injuries he's had over the last two years.

And even if that was the case, I still think there's going to be a lot of risk assessment for teams and determining, you know, projecting out an 18-year-old with back issues, the limited data they got on him this year, same issues that was Kay and Lindstrom that you had last season, although he still went forth overall. in terms of other players, I kind of get in the sense that we'll talk about the top group. I mean, we talked about this top group before us for a while, the Michael Misa, Caleb Dinoje, Anton Frundel, James Hagan, and we've kind of talked towards,

in the year, Jake O'Brien, moving to that top group, and kind of what I'm hearing is I feel like Brady Martin has really solidified himself in that top group with most teams. You know, he's right in the mix with all those names. I just mentioned, you have not ahead of quite a few of those names for some teams. I mean, all the teams with top five picks, top seven picks, took him out to dinner this week. I don't know where he'll go exactly in the draft, but I'm getting a sense.

Pretty good chance he's going to go top seven, top eight. The one guy among the top players where I really don't know where he's going to fit is Porter Martone, the Brampton Winger, in a draft with a lot of really good centers. And now, obviously, one more good center with Brady Martin coming into the last. fold. I do have some questions on where a winger who I think is a tremendous winger and one who does have some skating issues ends up in this draft and that I can see when if there's a lot of ties, ties will tend to go to the centers. And my comparison for him has been Philip Forsberg, which I think there's a lot of similarities there with the size, the

skill, the good, the good compete level, the skating. issues of the same age. And Phil Foresbury, as I might remember, was considered like a top three, top five pick going into his draft, ends up going 11 due to the risk variables that we mentioned. And the guys who went out of the head of him were all premium position guys. And that draft was defensemen. So I do wonder, I just not getting the sense that I think anyone's just dying to take Porter Martone right now.

I could be wrong, but that's just kind of the sense I've been getting this week. You mentioned McQueen, one more injury note. on this, not quite in that top group, but Carter Bear did tell me the other day, he's been on the ice four or five times now, which I think is really encouraging with his situation. I don't think we're going to see him do any testing this week, but I thought that was good to hear. Yeah, and with the injury Carter Bear suffered, which was a torn Achilles. Partially. Yeah, partially torn Achilles. It's a very unique injury. It's not too unique in that Peyton Krebs suffered it a few years ago, but I was having a conversation with a with a head

scat about this the other day about Carter Bear. It's like, other than Krebs, there really is a whole lot of precedent for that type of injury in a kid's draft year among like a high-profile player. And obviously, Kreb's career hasn't gone maybe as well as he would have hoped. I can't think you can talk that up completely to the injury he suffered in a draft season. But I do know that Baer's particular injury and how he's recovering from it has been a major talking point among teams. There's also some injuries that we find out about this time of year, Scott, that we didn't know guys were playing through.

Yeah, Caleb Dainway mentioned at the end of the Memorial Cup. that Caleb had struggled a little bit with some kind of an injury throughout this season, but didn't really specify where it was at the severity of it. So Caleb was at the top of the list of kids I wanted to speak to this week to make sure that I could sort of try to get a little bit of clarity. He told me that he had an MRI shortly before coming to Buffalo. He arrived in Buffalo a day or two later than most of the rest of the players because he was getting it sort of looked at.

He's now going to go back. He doesn't have the results of that MRI yet, but he's going to go back to Quebec after this get the results of that MRI. And he has been playing, he told me since November, with injuries to both of his wrists. He stopped taking faceoffs as a sort of regular go-to in the face-off circle for them. He still actually won 65% of his draws this year. But the fact that he didn't take draws that the shot didn't seem to pop like some teams maybe expected it would, was a talking point already. And then this week confirmed that he's dealing with something. And it sounded, he hinted at it, but he didn't confirm it, but it sounded like surgery was, was potentially

in the cards for him, which would disrupt a really important summer for a kid who needs to put on weight. Yeah, I know that that was something that teams were mentioning to me during the second half of the year as a guy who's basically, we've kind of all profiled as like, he's the for sure center among these top prospects. He actually wasn't playing center on Moncton. He was the first line wing. Yulio Sump was a center in the second half of the year. And we always kind of suspected there was an issue there because it didn't really make sense. Why wouldn't you play this guy down the middle with the way he plays? So that's very interesting to learn after the fact,

just confirming what was being suspected about Caleb's situation. And how about him being QMVP of the playoffs with two bum wrists? And I think you really saw it affect him towards the end. Like in their final couple games. The final games from Muske, he wasn't great. The Mem Cup, he was good in the last game, but he kind of struggled. in there. And that could be a combination of variables can. Who knows whether just the rest or not.

But I definitely kind of saw his game tail off there towards the end of the year. All right. So if the injuries are one part of the equation and obviously the fitness stuff will come on Saturday. The other thing that I'm always fascinated by at the combine is who seems to kind of help themselves in the interview room, Scott? There's been a couple of names that I've heard pretty consistently. One is Brady Martin, who Corey mentioned off the top. Brady is such a unique kid.

The farm background. It's truly a part of his identity. like this isn't some cliche farmer boy kid. It's a very serious thing that he takes very seriously. And I think he's made that clear. I've heard from a number of teams who said that he's hilarious and that he's been cracking jokes with teams and getting everybody in the room laughing. He's actually chosen not to attend the NHL draft, which with NHL folks, I think actually somehow earns him bonus points because he's staying home. He wants to be on the farm.

His family could not leave the farm at this time of the year with all of the work needs to be done. in order to go down to L.A. with him. So he's decided to stay home, continue to help out, watch the draft on TV and enjoy it at the farm. He's one name who I think teams just love. They love the player type, as Corey mentioned off the top, but they also really, really adore the kid and what he's all about and what he represents.

Bit of a throwback that way. And then there are two other names that I've heard have done really, really well in the room this week. And that's Anton Frundel and Caleb Dainway. And all of us have spoken to those kids over the course of the year. and they are very, very impressive. They're well-spoken. I think they've got some wit and some real charm and charisma to them.

And I think that's played really well for NHL clubs. I've heard from multiple scouts that they were really sort of working the room was the quote for Frundell and Danway A this week. So those kids are high picks in this draft class, but I think teams also just really like what they're all about. All right. So we have gotten a little bit of pushback that we've really gone in on the top seven or eight names in this. We just stuck to it with almost everyone we talked to or talked about in that opening segment. Anyone that you think, based on what you're hearing this week, is maybe belongs a little higher, maybe deserves a little more attention than we've given them so far. I think Lyndon Leikovic is in play 11, 12, 13.

He's a 6'4 winger. He's also interviewed very well this week. Another really charismatic kid, another kid that we've all spoken with over the course of this season. And you can tell he just sort of is a really well-spoken kid. but six foot four wingers that are big and strong and have skill and can skate are hard to find. And I think once the premium centers go, I think he's right at the front of that group of the wingers. I'm not sure that it's Carter Bear or Justin Carbono who are at the front of that winger group any longer. I think likeovich is kind of viewed as that that top winger once those centers are gone.

Obviously, Porter Martone being the exception amongst the wings. And then another name that I've heard really good things about this week and really even trending into this week was Cam Reed of the Kitchener Rangers. Six foot defensemen, five, eleven and a half, six foot defensemen. So you always wonder about that. But he's been telling teams that he thinks he can play in the NHL next year. He thinks that he developed at an incredible rate with the Kitchener Rangers this season. And I think he's, we talked about him sort of around 20 at various points this year. I think 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. I think that's where we're going to see Cam Reed go in this group. All right. One last thing that I want to talk about from what we're hearing or

seeing so far in Buffalo. That hasn't happened yet, but Corey, they're going to measure in tomorrow. And there's always a few guys who, if they could add a half inch to what we thought they were, an inch, or an inch, or if they can hang on, importantly, to an inch or a half inch, it's important to them. Is there anyone that comes to mind that you're going to be really keeping an eye on when they measure tomorrow? Yeah, well, basically it's the guys who we have, quote, unquote, unofficial measurements on because central scouting will measure a lot of these kids at the major events, particularly the major event in North America. The CHL NTPs series,

the OHL top prospects game, the World Juniors, the U-18 World Championships of Hulinka Groski. I don't think they did at the World Juniors after, but they definitely did at the Hink of Groskiy Cup. So I'll be curious to see what Victor Eklund measures in that, particularly. They just did a bunch of measurements

for the kids at the U-18 worlds. So I think a lot of those guys that's not probably going to get new or anything that interesting there, but I think Eklon will be one. they'll be interesting to watch the two Russians that are going to be here. Daniel Prokharov and Kervand Limitov are guys who, you know, the Russian measurements are basically just guesses that they put out there.

I mean, Ivan Demadov was 511 all year until then Central measured him last year. He should have 6-1, you know, see. But I've heard they've measured Prokerov at 6-5, and the people I've talked to say he looks 6-5. So I think that just where the Russians come in and Eklund, I think would be the most interesting. Well, speaking of guys who were going to measure really well, there's one of them, Chris, Mason West in Minnesota. And there's an interesting little tidbit to whichever team drafts him. Yeah, he's one of the more fascinating prospects of this draft.

We haven't talked a lot about him, but he's a guy that kind of has hovered around the discussion of the late first round, early second round, because of, you know, he's practically six foot six. He played at Adina High School this year. Also played a bit with the Fargo Force at the end of the season. And the big thing about him is that he is a three-star rated quarterback for the Adina of High School football team. And there was debate or not debate, but rather a discussion about whether or not he was going to choose hockey because he basically had a decision to make. Was he going to choose hockey as his long-term sport or football where he was getting Division I offers? We learned, you know, this week that it was, he is going to choose hockey for his long-term sport. However, he is a junior in high school this year.

He still has one more year of high school, and he is letting teams know that he is going to play his senior season in football as his final football season. And then we'll join the Fargo Force after his football season is over. This is interesting in a number of ways because it's fairly, it's not, it's not very common that this is going to happen where you're going to have a player that's going to say, I'm going to play another sport for half a year. And then, you know, in your draft plus one season. So there's a lot of interesting things that come with that. So teams are definitely going to do their due diligence, but the fact remains. He's a six foot,

practically six foot six forward, a star player in the Minnesota high school ranks, averaged nearly a point per game when he did play in the USHL at the end of last season, has skill. And obviously with that size and athletic profile, teams are going to be very interested. You know, we talk about Anders Lee,

another guy, same area, same situation. He was a star high school quarterback, eventually decided to play. play hockey full-time, spent an extra year in the USHL with the Green Bay Gamblers to prepare himself and obviously he became a full-time NHL player, captain of an NHL team. So it all worked out there. So the question is going to be, when does a team take a chance on Mason West? You also think about injuries and other things that could happen on the football field.

Andrew Kopp, who was a star football quarterback, broke his collarbone. in his senior season of high school football. And so that, you know, lost some time as a result of that. So there are so many factors at play that I think teams are going to consider. One thing about Mason West that I've heard from teams, aside from the obvious risk factors of drafting a guy who's going to go play football or arguably, you know, the most violent and injury-prone sport of the major sports an athlete could take part in as, as well as the fact that as opposed to Anders Lee or

cop, we're talking. about a guy who really is a potential late first, high second round talent. And if you're talking about where he belongs in the NHL draft as a six-six guy who could skate and has skill, it's, it's way higher than those two guys when. So the risk factor all of a sudden is a little bit different now. But as well, so when you're talking about that kind of asset, one of the big risks I've heard with teams is not only could he get hurt if he goes, plays football in the fall.

But right now, yes, he has D1 offers, but it's not from, like, big teams. It's from, like, lower-end D-1 teams. is when he goes into the football season, he's just awesome, because he's super athletic and he's great. And now all of a sudden, you know, the University of Minnesota comes calling. University of, you know, University of Michigan comes calling or whatever. And they want him to play quarterback for them. All of a sudden, yeah, he's hockey because he's choosing to be hockey player right now

because he doesn't have major school offers. But what if that changes? So I think that's a unique risk of variable. What we're talking about potential top two round pick? Different range, different sport. But we saw that with Kyler Murray and Major League Baseball. Oakland days took him, I think, like, seventh overall. And the plan was, yeah, he's going to play his last year of football at Oklahoma.

And he goes and wins the Heisman. He's the first overall pick in the NFL draft. And Kyler Murray has never played for the Oakland days, right? So there's a little bit of risk to that. Yeah. So just to kind of create a little additional context to the schools that he's talking to, it's mostly max schools and FCS schools. So like FCS schools are like your division, the old Division 1AA,

South Dakota State is one of them. You know, but the max schools is kind of the lower end of, of the Division I college football. That's a really good point from Corey because, yeah, he had a tremendous season this year. What happens with another year of development? What if all of a sudden, you know, six foot six quarterbacks are typically going to come into premium. And so I do think that there's significant risk factor there. And if you were a team picking, I think right now, first round, off the table for me.

But second and even early second round, now you have to have a discussion about it. So yes, he's committed to this. He's also going to play college hockey. He told Mike Moriol of NHL.com that he's down to two schools, Boston College and Michigan State, so two premier programs. So that obviously changes the dynamic too. If he goes to one of those schools, you know, you're talking about a kid that's probably there for one, two, three years. And then you've got a chance at a real premium talent. But the risk factor is there.

And it's funny how many different risk factors we've talked about in this draft, it just seems like it's full of them. There's risk every year. but it just seems like there are more and more unique ones in this draft class than we've seen in previous years. I'll take a quick break right there. We're going to come back. We're going to talk about some of the teams with the most interesting decisions to make early in this draft. All right, we are back. And Corey, you had an really interesting article this week about some of the most interesting decisions high on the draft.

Yes, I know we're talking about like the top seven or eight again. But there's some interesting situations here. Let's start with, I think, the first situation where it's a really interesting call. That's Chicago at number three. Yeah, and Kyle Davidson did an availability yesterday with the Chicago media where one of the questions that was asked of him is, do you think getting a center with the number three pick, a true center is a priority? And, you know, based on your projection, whether you think Connor Bedard and Frank Nasar are going to be full-time centers in the NHL. And his response was that they do view Bedard and Nazar as centers, legitimate NHL centers, which I used. can buy and I can think, yes, they have shown they can play center. They are centers. They are

good centers. But I don't think that's the right way to ask that question. The question is, can they be the top two line centers on a team that wins a Stanley Cup? And I think that's more interesting. The devil's advocate argument would be look at Tampa and say that their centers weren't giants when they won. But I think there's a little bit of a difference between the way Braden Point plays and the way Anthony Sorrelli plays to the way to how those guys are. And I do think it at least begs the question, maybe let's for Nazar and more for Bardard about whether he would, not that whether he could play center, but whether he's

best situated on the wing. But I do think when you talk about the guys at the real top of the draft, in particular, Anton Frundel and Caleb Dinoje and Michael Misa, I feel like Dinoje is the only one we feel is for sure a center and if you're drafting him, that's part of the cell job is he can be the two-way centerman. Rondell, despite the fact that he's being portrayed as like, he could be like a

Anzicopatra, he can be, you know, like this really hard to play against two-way center. He actually didn't really play center this year. He was a wing in your guard. Now, that's against men, I think long term he is a potential top two line centerman. But there is a scenario where he does play the wing in the NHL. And I seem to

think the same thing from Michael Misa. There's been internationally, Michael Misa is basically always been a wink. So I feel like that's good to be, you know, an interesting risk variable for Chicago is how do they, not only how do they view those two guys, but whether they feel like they can, they need another type of guy to potentially win a championship

that could maybe allow Badaad or Nazar to move to the wing and maybe more maximize their value. The thing is, I think any of those players that we talked about can also play the wing if needed, right? Like if you just, if, if Connor Bedard and Frank Naser prove that they really are that level of center, okay, well, Caleb Denoia obviously played left wing for Monkden all year and it went pretty well. Yeah. But I think you're probably going to want Caleb Denae in the middle and you can flex one of those guys and it's a luxury.

I don't think that's a weakness. I don't think that's wasting anything. I think that's a luxury you give yourself. Yeah. And I feel like these are tiebreaker elements. These are not, this is not the priority questions that are being asked. Hopefully you have to get the player right. You have to figure out who's the real best player.

And then I think if it starts coming down to when you're really torn between, let's say, Dinaue and Miser, Dinauie and Frondell or Frandell and Jake O'Brien and whoever else, I feel like these can be like the real tie-breaking questions. It's like, okay, long-term, how do we envision our lineup? Like I said, I think it's, but Darg's probably the most interesting one. I'd be curious to hear what you guys think. Do you think, like, who would be a first-line center in recent memory that went deep in the playoffs that he would remind you? of crickets. I don't know that I have one. I think he has the chance to be singular though.

Like I think just because there hasn't been that player who has done that thing, I don't think that's reason to rule out a player of Connor Bedard's caliber and talent level and ability as a potential first line center on a championship team. No, I think we all love Connor as a player. But I think Corey's point is, do you maximize him that way? Or do you maximize him by saying go be our David Posternak, go be our, Nikita Kuturav, obviously the one that gets thrown on most. Go be our Patrick Kane, right?

I think that is a perfectly, like, we just named three players off the top of our head like that. So do you want to ask him to be something that no one's been in a while? Or do you want to be like, hey, there's this real role out here? Phil that. Yeah, and he's got to get better defensively and better in the faceoff circle. And there are real reasons to make that case that he should be a winner. All right.

The next one I think is really interesting, Corey, is Philadelphia at number six. Why don't you tee up that one for us? I think you're going to see this with a lot of teams picking in the top seven to eight is like pretty much outside of Seattle to an extent. And Seattle has a good center situation with Jane Wright and Maddie Baneers and in Berkeley, Cadden. But really outside of them, a lot of these teams with these high picks have pressing needs for centermen. And, you know, it's different with one like Chicago, three, Utah, four, Nashville, five, is that they're probably going to get their second or third rated center. There's a really good chance when it gets to Philly at 6 who have a dying need

for a premier center in their organization and didn't really get to address that last year. You know, they got Jet Lechenko, but we think best cases are two, probably a third line center if he hits. You know, they kind of need that. But they might be looking at 6th overall at their third or fourth best center option in this draft. And that becomes a really tricky situation for them is do you go at that route? What if Porter Martone is still sitting there and you really value Porter Martone? You think he could be a first line wing in the NHL? I think that could be a really interesting scenario on the one end. And the other end with Philly is just the way they've drafted recently where they take, you know, Jetlachenko 511 last year. They take Matveen Michigov, you know,

510, whatever he is. They trade for Jamie, trade cutter Gochia for Jamie Drysdale, who's 511. And Cam York's was a small draft pick, a forward. You know, you've got to have Bobby Brink on the team. It's, oh, and Tippet isn't small. I can't say he plays big either. There's a lot of similarities in this group. And I understand drafting for the best player available. And, you know, let's say James Hagan is there at 6,

that you think he's clearly the best player available. I would support taking him there. But I think it would be interesting long-term analysis on how you built this team he's at some point, do you need to draft someone with a little more size? And is that, like, Jake O'Brien, is that Roger McQueen, if you want some tenacity, is it even Brady Martin? I think that would be a really interesting decision for Philly at six. I think they have a lot of things they have to discuss.

Yeah, I mean, like, and that is, that is interesting. And the lack of consensus about kind of the order of the way that these guys should go kind of gives them a little bit of grace in this because there's obviously, you know, I don't think that whoever's going to be available at six is, you know, going to be great, good, but not, you know, the best possible option for them. I think it does come down to, like, you know, they tried to get size with, with Cutter Goce, it didn't work out. And now you have to kind of see who that guy is.

Like, if it is James Higgins, if that's the player at six, you know, that's the pick you have to make. I mean, you have to get the best player. I think that, you know, he's no worse than the sixth best player in this draft as far as I'm concerned. You know, and I think that the size factor, you have to figure out other ways to address it if it is going to become a long-term problem, something that you're going to have to have to. You know, to get size. I think teams value it to such a degree that there's a premium placed on it. We saw Minnesota went and got Brazzo this year in a trade for, and they, they, they,

three assets that cost them. You know, whose new Dinov, Loco, and then an extra draft pick on top of that. So that, so it's a print, like there's that kind of premium.

Now that's not a huge, that's not costing you like your very top prospects and things like that, but it is expensive. This went as, as good as it's going to hold for Buffalo, but after they kind of did the same thing where they drafted a bunch of really skilled, smaller guy,

they basically dumped Matt Savoy last summer for Ryan McLeod. And this trade went wonderfully for them. Ryan McLeod, has looked like a really nice player for them. But they're kind of backed up to a similar corner now with Peturka and Jack Quinn. And I can't imagine the market for small wingers is really going to be that significant.

Yeah. What's your side? I mean, Danny Breyer is the GM there, right? Is it possible that Philly just doesn't care about the size factor? Or do you think this is something that's on their radar? I can't imagine they don't care because that there's a reality that you can't build a hockey team with a bunch of five, 10 guys. that there's, there has to be some variety in there.

But I also think it's kind of the same situation they dealt with with Mitch Cull, where it's like, okay, if you're not picking two or three, you're picking six or seven, you have to deal with the cards that are dealt to you. And if they come to the conclusion, when I don't know how they'll conclude, but they come to a conclusion that James Higgins is clearly the best player left, not just the best player. I could see a tie go into a Martone or a McQueen or whatever kind of thing. But if they view, he's the clear best player.

And not only is he, he's right at the top of our list, and he fills a positional need, then I think they'll just have to have to do it and figure this problem out later. All right. And then the one other situation that you highlighted I want to talk about, I think is especially interesting. And that's Boston at seven. Boston is in this fascinating situation where they have a ready-made prime age core, David Posternak, Charlie McAvoy, Jeremy Swainman, like, these are big time pieces.

And you want to win soon. And I think you really want to hit a home run with this pick. The same time, if you miss, this is not a system that is going to be very forgiving. Like, there's not a whole lot of buffer in Boston system. I wonder how that it kind of informs their decision. One, I think they do need to have a, I'm curious with how they actually assess where their team really is. I think there are some people in the league that think that they could bounce back. Next year, they had a lot of injuries.

Swayman had an uncharacteristically poor year, even though he probably is, you know, we talked with this contract this time last year about whether he was really deserving that kind of contract. a guy would add a long track record of being a full-time starter. So we'll see how he does in future years. But I think there's a legitimate argument they could bounce back. And a legitimate argument, like, there's not a lot of depth on this team. You know, they've lost some pieces. They're going to be tough to replace. And they might need to take a step back.

I mean, when you talk about home run swings, obviously, Roger McQueen comes to mind and what he could be, you know, talking about guys who can step in soon. You think about the late birthdays like Higgins, like Porter-Martone, McQueen is a late birth too. You could see them get to the league within the next year or two. It'll be fascinating and see what the direction they take. Another team where, by all accounts, they really, really need a center. There is very little center talent in this organization right now.

And kind of like Dilley, they'll probably be looking at their third or fourth best center option. But they may have to settle on that. All right, let's take a quick break right there. come back. We got some really good mailbag questions on tap. All right, we are back, and we're going to close up today with a mailbag, a really good mailbag. And we're going to start, Corey, with this question from D Brown, who gave a really long, thorough question. I'm not going to read all of it, but the thrust of his question is, if you think Michael Mesa, and he's a Sharks fan, if you think, obviously, the Sharks would

love to get this D, but is it so bad that they would get Michael Mesa? I mean, if you compare a 1D and a 1C, and you think both are those things, which, you know, I think we had them collectively in a tier when we did our collective ranking last week, is a 1D that much more valuable than a 1C anyway, or should you just go with the 1C? I would say if there's a tie, you'd probably go towards C, the center than the defenseman for a couple of reasons.

I would just say in general, first line said this tends to be more valuable than a first number one defense. We just look at how NHL teams that win tend to be built. The star centers are usually the ones who, drive the bus. Those are usually, you know, we think of the top five, top eight players,

top ten players in the league. A lot of them tend to be comprised of those first line centermen. That being said, I think where the distinction would come in this case is I'm not completely convinced Michael Misa is a first line C or at least a first line center

in the way that we think of, you know, I think he could be a top 32 center in the league. I think he could be a legitimate first line center however you want to frame it I don't know if he rises to the level of like what we said, Macklin Sillabrini could be a first line center, or Connor Bradar could be a first line center.

I don't think he's that type of type of player. I think, you know, even if the shark took him at two, he's not going to be a bossy, the first line center on that team. Or I think Schaefer has potential to be like a top five defenseman in the league, his top six, seven defenseman in the league. I'm not saying he will be that.

But I think there's a different echelot of talent there overall. For me, there's a separation for a lot of people in the league. There's a clear separation. However, if you conclude there isn't, which I think some in the league have concluded, there isn't a difference. It's why I do think there is this minority opinion in the league that Michael Misa is the best player in the draft. All right. Realistically, not a decision San Jose is making. So I guess it's really just a matter of how the islanders have to make that decision, though.

That's true. That is true. All right. Next question, Scott, is from washed athlete. And he says, are we seeing more teams go away from drafting smaller defensemen now after seeing what we? wins in the playoffs. I think there's a limit. Certainly teams are prioritizing length on the blue line.

I think that goes without saying at this point. You look not just at the teams that have won the Stanley Cup recently, but virtually every top team in the league has praised a premium, premium, premium emphasis on not just having two or three big D, but potentially having four or five or even six of your seven D look like that. So there's no question that it's trending that way. In saying that, we started the podcast by having a conversation about how much people like Cam Reed in this age group. And we've seen what Lane Hudson has accomplished.

And we saw Denton Mateechuk be one of the best young defensemen in the NHL this year. And leapfrog some defensemen from his own class who were 6.3, 6.4, who have yet to cut their teeth and really establish themselves as premium sort of prospects within their organization or as NHL players within their organization. So it depends on the caliber of defensemen you're talking about. If you're talking about a Denton Machaichuk who plays both sides of the puck, who's been a leader on his team, who's competitive. If you're talking about a Cam Reed who plays both sides of the puck, who's been a leader on his team, who's competitive. There are smart in both Matechuk and Camryd's case. Those attributes are still the premium.

Size is another attribute that carries that premium. But when you have the rest, I think teams can live with having one or two guys that look like that on their roster. The question is, really, you can have six guys that have the size. You cannot probably have six Camryds or six Dent and Matechucks as much as we all like that type of player. Yeah. And I wouldn't say this is a league-wide thing. I think there are plenty of teams in the league that would look that would be happy to draft a Camry and because Parkinson is a great skater and all the things guys discussed.

I would say there's a quarter of the league, though, that have just hard. limits on that kind of player. And like, would absolutely, would just be a no without even further discussion unless they are of like the special variety, like I kill McCarr or something like that. Like, I think there'd be a core of the league that just wouldn't even entertain the idea of trading for Adam Fox, getting Jared Spurgeon, getting Lane Hudson, getting Sam Girard, that just would say we're not going to build a blue line that way. But I would say most of the league would be open to it.

But as Scott said, they would be open to it, but they would be careful to not be overflowing with that player type. There's also been a recent history of that player type, the 5-11, 6-foot D, who's smart and thinks the game well, but maybe doesn't have a dynamic, dynamic quality of that player type really struggling to break into the league. We've seen it with Eric Brandstrom.

We've seen it with Ville Hinola. We saw it with Victor Soderstrom isn't even going to play in the league at this point, I don't think, as a regular, at least, in the NHL. So there have been, there's been a pile, Lundfist with the stars, there's been a pile of that type of player that has struggled to sort of cut its teeth and really establish itself. And those are first, like those are first second round picks.

All right. sticking with Schaefer here, Chris. Eric Islander wants to know where Schaefer projects compared to other recent first overall defensemen. So we're talking to Enpower, Rasmus Delene, Arnack, Vlad. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, when you look at that at Schaefer and the tools, you know, I also want to put with the big caveat as we talked about last week in our show is that this is a player that hasn't played a ton this season. And so we haven't seen necessarily the rise and fall, the Evan flow of a season that he had. And pretty much it was all great this year. If he's that, then he's going to be one of the best defensemen in the league. I would say, you know, he trends very favorably versus Owen Power. And I would have said that regardless, you know, regardless of what

we've seen up from Owen Power in the NHL. I think Rasmus Dahlene, it's a similar discussion to me, You know, in terms of the player, I think that the differences with Schaefer, you've got a more physical, you know, harder player. I think that that'll be a difference for him. You know, and then I think the upside, there, you know, is he, is he a dynamic offensive creator, like in the way that Dahlene has become? I'm not all the way there yet on that with him, but I am, I do believe that there's a lot of potential. I mean, so, you know, I think he, relative to the previous number one overall defenseman, he trends very favorably.

Whereas, you know, you look at the guys that have gone, the forwards that have gone, you know, it wouldn't, I don't think it's a very close discussion. Yeah, I would probably agree. He'd be behind Dalian for me. And Dowling was such a game breaker. Yeah. You're like, you never, I've never seen a defense than that size,

that skilled kind of thing. Breaking ankles in the S. Yeah. You know, and then you would go to Schaefer. I don't have Schaefer ahead of Echblad and power. Yeah. Interestingly enough, when I surveyed NHL scouts for an article on Schaefer about a month or so ago, they had him at the same point ahead of Dahlene in power.

I had some questions on how much recency bias was in there, but I don't think it's unreasonable. I think Schaefer would be better than Daly in terms of his skating and defensive play, and definitely does have as much offense, but he does have offense in his game. think there's more hope that he can be a more well-round in a one defenseman, even though Dalian is a very special player too, but I think he's closer to Dalene that he would be to the other too. Yeah, I agree with that. All right. Next one's for Corey. It's from Andrew. He said, what would your strategy be if you were in charge of a team with five plus picks in the first two rounds of

any draft? Does the draft itself matter much? Or would your philosophy be to move off some, either moves up the board, moving to other drafts, moving for players? I think the boring answer is you just take the best player available, you just go by your list, et cetera, et cetera. But I do think with, and you hear this often when it comes to the risky decisions. You think of someone like a knife and Briapkin who's kind of had a tumultuous year. We came into the year's potential top 10, top 15 picks. And with like Will Moore with the program or Mason West with the risk we talked about earlier

in this episode, you often hear people say with those kind of players, well, you know, we have multiple picks. that that's the kind of team that would take a gamble those kinds of players. And when I hear that, I always kind of wonder, well, on the one hand, you know, you will have picks again next year too. So I don't understand why you so much think about

the picks you have this year, while you need multiple picks to take a risk this year. But I think the most important variable for me is not how many picks you have. It's more where you are as an organization at that current moment. You know, let's look at a couple of different rebuilding organizations that have multiple picks.

That'll be Philadelphia, Nashville, and Chicago. Philadelphia and Nashville are kind of at the outset of the rebuilds right now. Barry Trotz is not getting fired next year. Daniel Breyer is not getting fired next year. Kyle Davidson, though, I'm not saying he's getting fired next year. However, I think there is some pressure in Chicago in the next two, three years. They need to start making some progress here. They need to start getting some players and really turn the corner here.

So I could see in someone like a Chicago's case, even though they have a bunch of picks. Do we really want to roll the dice on our Ivan Riepkin here? or do we want to try and turn these assets into guys who will help us? We've kind of drafted this core players the last three, four years, and we need to find a way to supplement, then maybe we turn these picks into assets. Yeah, I think another important factor, Corey, in terms of where you are as an organization,

is in the number of prospects that you have in your system, not just those under contract, right? So you can't use them all. You really can't. You have 50 contracts to use in a season. So really a team, especially like Chicago, you would say, hey, start sending out that candy. Those draft picks, they're for whatever.

You don't necessarily, you're just buying more lottery tickets if you use those picks. So, and you can't sign everybody. I think that, you know, in years past, Carolina was more of a volume picking team where they were trading back, getting picks and all those different things. A lot of those guys that they did pick in the mid-rounds, not prospects. They might help their HL team, but they're not NHL prospects. So the more you do that, then all of a sudden you're like, oh, well, we really didn't get anything out of that. So I think knowing the number of prospects that you have and also knowing what the trade market is going to afford you, gives you some options on what to do with those.

So they did get out there and a key to you with one of those picks. That's true. That's true. But I mean, and those are the ones that that's what you hope for, right, in that volume picking. But then you've got your, you know, Alexander Passions and others like that that are probably not going to be players for your team. I always look back at LA of six, seven years ago and where that pool was at and where did it, where did it take them? It took them more to trades than to actually using those players. Arthur Calliath, no longer with the organization.

Brock, say what you will about the Brock Faber, Kevin Fiala, that transaction. They made the decision to move Brock Fabor because they had this abundance. They had stockpiled all of these players. Guys like Akil Thomas who scored the golden goal at the world juniors just haven't been able to break through because they, for example. a time there. They had too many guys, too many young players. Alex Turkart, injuries played a big role there, but it took them a long, long time. So there is such a thing. I know fans love piling up prospects and talking about hypothetical lineups, but there is such a thing as too many young players, especially when they're all within the same two or three age groups, because you cannot,

we're seeing Buffalo right now, but you cannot bring all those guys up together. Our next one's going to be for Scott from Mario Seneas. He says, has the CHL NCAA offseason gone, as you guys would have thought when the news was announced. Does it help North American prospect development in the future for players, for example, like Caden Lindstrom? I think it goes without saying that this is going to be a benefit for the players who make the right decisions. There are going to be some mistakes in the early going here. There are going to be players who go to college and whether they struggle with the schooling

or they don't get the power play time that they thought they were going to get, or they're not as productive as they expected, or they just find college hockey to be much harder than they expected. I think that's going to be a reality that hits a lot of these kids. But for the kids that are ready for it, for the kids that pick the right school, that end up with the right coach, it is going to be a, the NCAA route is going to be a benefit to a lot of kids. It is going to become the natural next step for a lot of kids out of junior. I do think there's a pyramid forming here that makes a lot of sense for a lot of kids. It's going to be about making the right choices, recruiting the right players, putting together the right lineup. making sure that everybody's happy and everybody's got the proper opportunities. As far as the announcements of commitments that we've heard so far and whether it's gone sort of

as we expected, there's going to be more here in the next month or so. A lot of kids seem to be waiting until they get picked and have that next conversation with their NHL clubs. But I think it's played out about how I expected it would in terms of the interest level from NCAA teams was going to be obvious NCAA clubs and programs were going to recruit these players heavily. And the interest seems to be reciprocated by a lot of the top kids. We've seen it, especially early on out of the WHL and some of those kids that have committed. But I think there's, there's going to be a trickle effect here that happens in the OHL and in the QMJHL in the next month or so as well.

Absolutely. And I think one of the other things to track now that we saw in the last couple of days is the younger players that are choosing now to go to the OHL route or the CHL route in general that didn't before Eli McCamey was an exceptional status player in the BCHL, he signed in the WHL. Cooper Dennis. Cooper Dennis. We saw Cooper, Cooper Dennis, Callum Koskari, Kroskeri, Caleb Malhotra. Adam Valentini. Adam Valentini, they all signed in the CHL, and that's three guys out of the USHL.

And so that is, that is, and Malhotra was the BCHL. So that, this is how it's going to go. Yes, you are going to lose some of those top end older players. But I think the OHL, the QM. MJHL, the WHL, what they do realize is that there will be a number of players that they wouldn't have otherwise gotten that are now coming into their league and they will always be alumni of that league. They'll always be able to, you know, put them on their brochures and everything else. And so, yes, this is going to significantly change junior hockey in terms of the number of

older players that are there. But now we're seeing it's more, it's almost like there's a more dedicated tiering to the steps towards the NHL. And so in the same way that the USHL was the step kind of on the way to the NHL, but not directly to the NHL. Step to college. It's going to be similar for the CHL. Now, there's going to be a number of other decisions that we're still waiting on. The Gavin McKenna decision, which we fully expect that he will play college hockey next year, we just don't know where. That is the big domino.

We saw Cole Reschney and Keaton Verhoff. That was a big one with two players going to the college route, especially one like Verhoff, who is accelerating to go to the college route. But the Gavin McKenna decision, where he goes, what he does is going to create a bit of a cascading effect, I think. On the one hand, I don't think it's kind of been the quote-unquote bloodshed that we thought it's going to be where everybody left to go to the CHL. Sorry, everybody left the CHL to go to college. There's still quite a few guys who are going to be first-round picks in the CHL is here who are often to go back to junior, guys who have been first-round picks already who are still going back to junior.

So I still think there's, you know, junior hockey isn't dead. The CHL isn't dying. It's still going to be a very good league for, you know, have highly competitive hockey. However, there is one asterisk in all of this. And this has come up in a lot of the conversations with the NHL teens and colleges. It's because this is year one, a lot of the top names that could have gone to college didn't really know this was an option two years ago, three years ago. So they didn't really prepare for it in terms of making sure that there.

grades were up to part. And as well, a lot of the high CHL picks last year, Dijiginla, Berkeley, Cadden, Carter, Yakim Chuck, Zane, Parek, they all signed NHL contracts. Sam Dickinson. Last fall. So they wouldn't have really prepared themselves for the scenario where, you know, you're going to see guys like Katten and Yakimchuk and Dickinson

kind of probably be on the NHL bubble this fall. Maybe they're ready. Maybe they're not. And they, you know, you would love the college route to be an option for them, but it's not going to be. But for future age group, they might be a little, they might be a little bit more patient on sign that first NHL contract and maybe more exploring their college options. I do think Corey's point about more guys staying than maybe people realize is well made too. The CHL is likely to retain Bill Zahn and told me this week he's leaning towards

going back despite having played three years in the QMJL already. I've heard that Kayshon-Aitchison and Porter Martone are leaning towards staying despite interest from college. are leaning towards staying. Radin Merca has told me he wants to go back to Seattle next year. Like there's going to be high-end, high-end players returning and playing in the CHL next season. Carter, Barron, Braiding Coots, both explore going to go into school, but they're going to go back to junior as well.

Yeah. All right. Matt Sherrin and Corey wants to know what center prospect in the 12 to 20 range has the best chance to actually stick at center and not get moved to the wing? Braden Coots. All right. I think, like, he's has the traits. He's a good skater.

He competes hard. He's plate center internationally at high levels. Yeah, he's grown a little bit. Previous measures have a 5-11. I say he's closer to 6-0 right now. Like, I think he absolutely has to trace to be a third line center, maybe even a two, but really, really goes well with his development. All right.

And then last one, we're going to go around the horn here. We'll start with Chris. If a team's doctors see McQueen's injury as not a problem at all, which at all seems like it's doing a lot of work. But if a team's doctor see it is not a problem, what's the highest pick you could see, Roger McQueen going, Chris. That's a great question.

I mean, if there is a completely clean bill of health, I would say that the potential, like, everybody's still going to weigh the odds here. But I think four would probably be the highest, maybe

even three, you could say, because of that premium size skill combination. At the position. But that's the thing. thing is this isn't that world and he still didn't play that much this season. So I do think, you know, even in that scenario, the likelihood is that he would go outside of the top five, but probably within the top 10 is what I would say. Scott? I've thought about this a lot.

Even if we got the clean bill of health now and he hadn't had it this year, if we were just looking at his games that he's played over the last two seasons, I would still have reservations about the sample size from this year and what we'd seen in terms of the true package of what we're talking about. I probably would have had him six or seven on my list. I still think that the top five guys that I really like in this class would still be ahead of him. But I think I probably would have had a conversation with him and Anton Freundell in terms of who was sixth on my list in this group. But I think in terms of the conversation NHL teams would have had that Chris's point three, four, five, I think would have been potentially in play for him.

four to six, if he was perfectly healthy, would probably have been his range. All right, lots more to come. That's going to do it for us today, though. Thanks for listening to this episode of the athletic hockey show Prospect Series. You can, of course, catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey on his podcast called up. Scott, Corey, and I'll have a lot more from the combine for you in the coming days. And Laz and I will have you covered on Monday with the next episode of the athletic hockey show. We'll talk to you then.