The Athletic Hockey Show - What's next for Rod Brind'Amour, Dougie Hamilton and the Carolina Hurricanes. Nathan MacKinnon and the Colorado Avalanche's window is now and Jon Cooper's Tampa Bay Lightning need to up their mental game vs New York Islanders.

Episode Date: June 15, 2021

On the Tuesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, Craig Custance and Sean Gentille welcome Sara Civian from The Athletic Carolina, and Peter Baugh from The Athletic Denver to discuss the elimination of Stanley Cup favorites Carolina and Colorado in the second round of the playoffs. In Raleigh, The crew discuss what to do with Dougie Hamilton and Rod Brind'Amour, who are both free agents in Carolina, and the work ahead in Denver, as Joe Sakic looks to keep his core intact for another run at the Stanley Cup.The guys also discuss Jon Cooper's comments on his Tampa Bay team, with the Bolts needing more mental toughness to deal with the New York Islanders style of play. Plus, Sean and Craig stick tap Stephen Johns career, and his decision to pack it in after serious concussion issues, and the hiring of Brad Larsen in. Columbus and Gerard Gallant in New York City.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, this is Craig Custin's with The Athletic. Join by my teammate and colleague and best friend, Sean Jitili, for our Tuesday edition of The Athletic Hockey Show, The Americans Edition. I think only us call it that, Sean. I don't know if anyone else calls it that. We need to pick a lane and stay with it. I think we're good. We could do some interesting Photoshop's with that with Matthew Reeves and Carrie Russell.

So, yeah, I think I think it could work out. How are you, are you tired? I'm tired. Yeah, I'm tired. But I'm trying to, I'm going to plow through it like a professional. I mean, because nobody wants to hear, oh, you had to watch a game that started late or whatever. Nobody's, nobody's. I saw enough.

Our jobs are not hard. I saw enough people not in this God forsaken industry, this Godforsaken industry who were complaining about that last night. I think the nine o'clock starts are, it's an adjustment. Yeah, yeah, but you know, look, I mean, I like that you tacked on a viewing of the Sopranos afterwards. I'm so far into the rewatch, dude. I need to finish it because it's completely running my life right now. I meant to tell you, I just got an email from the folks at Ted Lassow. I don't know why I'm on the list, offering up screenings.

Yes, take one. first three episodes. Ethically, should I watch it just for my own entertainment without ever planning on doing anything with it? That's really not my concern. What you need to do is watch it and then give me access to it. As long as I get the password, I don't care. I don't care whether you get yelled at for it or whatever.

We should get people on a show and just, they must. Somehow my email slipped into the thing so I could be like, yeah, I've got some questions to follow up. Can we get them on the athletic hockey show? Does Roy Kent like hockey? Is there any way we can get him involved in this? We have a loaded show. Instead of our normal one guess, we're doing two guests

because we got both Sarah Sivion and Peter Baugh, who cover teams recently eliminated from the playoffs. Interesting teams, especially Peter covers the Colorado Avalanche. He took over for Ryan Clark after Ryan Clark's promotion. And Sivy, of course, covers the Carolina Hurricanes. And there's intrigue. There's a lot of palace intrigue in both of those cities. So that's going to be two fun conversations.

But first, let's talk. I know, you know, we all watched Vegas kind of dismantling and turning up the heat on Montreal. I want to jump into Tampa in the Islanders just for a minute, Sean. Specifically, I thought there was like, John Cooper had some interesting thoughts after the game. including, hey, this is the first time we've been down in the series, or lost a game even, since the Columbus sweep. And of course, that's right. Like, the math checks out.

But I don't know that, like, that didn't occur to me. And is there any significance to you to any? Like, I mean, this is a team that can handle adversity, but do we have to worry at all about anything of this? Even before that, I think Cooper is, he's got a talent. Wait, I said loss a game. I meant loss of time. serious. Sorry, go ahead. Cooper's...

Yeah, they didn't sweep their way through us. Right. Cooper's got a talent for saying... If you read these comments, you're like, wow, he took him apart a little bit. And then you hear him deliver it and he just says stuff so casually where it's like, he gets the message across in a more, you know, palatable way. Like, that's a... Those are not the easiest things to hear, right? When he's talking about mental mistakes and all that.

but you hear him deliver it and I can imagine being a player in hearing that and being like, okay, rather than having it, you know, screamed at you or whatever, the way it's communicated is, is, is effective. But yeah, the mental, the mental mistakes stuff, I think it's, I think it's true. It's, it's, it's evident to us, you know, the, the biggest goals scored on a, on a brain fart by, by Stamco. So, but, but it was funny to see him just cop to it immediately after that. You're right. His delivery does soften it. And, and, you know, that's, I don't know if that matters. Like, it's, it's, if players are reading postgame quotes or watching any of this, but it, it does. It looks worse in print.

And, and one of the other things that he said was, basically, we know how the Islanders play. And now it's on us to pick them apart or pick their system apart or pick it apart was what he said. So I guess I'm, I'm injecting what it is. but the islanders do what they do. They do it really well. They played last year. And now it's on them to try to exploit it. And I don't know. Something struck me as interesting about that. Yeah.

It's not a secret code with the islanders either. You don't fall behind. You don't make mental mistakes. And they did both of those in that first game. So it's not a recipe for success. but yeah, it's, um, I, that could, that could be a good one. I'm, um, I'm more, I'm more, I'm more excited about that series by a factor of 10 now than I was three days ago or whatever, because everyone knows on some level, we all continue,

I mean, I certainly do, continue picking against the Islanders because you're just like, how, how much longer can they, can they keep doing this? But you also know in the back of your mind, because you've observed it, that, they're on some level a team to be reckoned with. But you do need to see that, I certainly do. You need to see that first game, that first win before you're kind of willing to entertain the thought, at least all the way, against a team like Tampa Bay, at least. Yeah.

I mean, it's such a contrast to last year when Tampa won, whatever it was, 8-2 or, you know, you're like, okay, at least now you're like, this is, I mean, that series as it went along, got closer last year. I'm sure that, that this is just some sort of. continuation of how that series played out from start to finish. And I actually picked the Islanders. And I don't know if I even believed it. It was one of those things where I'm like, like, I just didn't want everyone to pick the

lightning. 100%. It was like, this is I guess a glimpse into what goes into our predictions. But I was just like, it's going to be closer than people say, I don't want the athletic staff picks to be 6 million lightning. Well, yeah, because we saw, we saw the Sportsnet montage after. Basically, yeah, I wanted to spare. That's a sports net montage.

Yeah, that's, that's you. You're always, you're always thinking about the good of the group. I mean, I said it in the power rankings last week with Dom. Like, I would have loved to have picked the Islanders, but I just couldn't, I couldn't get myself to a place where I felt like that was intellectually honest on my part because I didn't think they were going to win and I still don't. So I'm not going to just make something up. I wish.

So you're calling me intellectually dishonest. No, I'm not. I'm not. I wish, I wish I... That's what I hear. You're the most honest man I know. You're the Abraham Lincoln of this podcast, baby. Yeah, we do need more historical president references in this. Thank you for that.

Who is the Harry Truman of this podcast? Maybe it'll be, maybe it'll be Sivian. We'll see. I think so, probably. So, yeah, I'm excited about that series. I think it's going to be a lot of... of close games. I like the Islanders, it's time that people just realize that that's just a really good

hockey team. I think the lightning are, in my opinion, you know, if you pan back, they're in the same pantheon in my mind is the Kings and the Blackhawks in, you know, over the last decade or so of really good teams that I think are going to win multiple cups. And so I think they have another one in them. And I think they're really driven to show it. Like when I talk to people in that organization, even, you know, they say, yes, winning the Stanley Cup was great, but going back to back says something, like, that's, that puts you in another class of teams. And I think they're really driven to be in that class.

Like, there's no satisfaction in winning just one. They're so loaded up. There's probably some short-term motivation now because they can't, you know, just the way the roster is constructed, they can't keep the group together. It's going to look fundamentally different next year. It's going to look fundamentally different next year. So I put them in another level that if I really had to bet, I think they're, you know, Vegas is my cup pick. I think it's probably going to be Vegas, Tampa final. But the islanders, they're going to give them bits.

And if they advance, that would be great for them. You know what I mean? Like they've earned every ounce of respect they've got. If we, it'll be interesting to see how this series is called moving forward to because I know it's cliche to say that special teams are a. part of these series because that's always that's always true but I think it goes even more so for this because of the because of the lightning power play and what we saw him do against Carolina and all that so yeah I'm I'm psyched for this I'm glad we saw that result in game one

because I think it was what it certainly was what I needed to get more invested as a fan in this series you know you just you just want to see you want to see them bank some wins because on some level they are outgunned and you know that that's not going to change but yeah 1-0 I'm psyched about it

um quick we got Sarah Sivian is waiting I don't and I do not want to make Sarah wait at all but I wanted to get your thoughts on Vegas turning up the heat against Montreal only solidifying the notion that maybe that Canadian division wasn't particularly great

and I know and that we if anything else we've learned not to make generalization after one game in these playoffs. It's similar. They looked good. They look great, but it's also similar to stuff we said about the lightning at the start of that Canadian series, right? Because people are like, wow, Carrie Price was awesome last night and they still lost.

That's really bad news from Montreal. And it is, but did we not just say that like 10 days ago or whatever? About Colorado? Yeah. I don't know. I'm not willing to, I'm not quite ready to stomp on them yet, but that was, that was a pretty, that was a pretty dominant performance just, just across the board. You know, that's just, oh, it's nice to have guys like Chey Theodore end up on your team,

you know, for free by accident. So you take on another, another good player. You think Ron Francis was watching that, like, can I have one of those? Can I have one of those, please? Yeah. I just think the way Vegas is built, they're going now, they're clicking. Like, I mean, I don't know. I guess I don't want to declare the series is over, but they're everything that you'd

want them to be at this point if you're Vegas. And I just, I love the, they're built for this moment. And they're experience, they've been through this. They're driven. I don't know. Everything, you just watched them, just ratcheted up and how heavy they play in their forecheck. And you're just like, how do you, how do you, how do you, how do you. counterbalance this and I don't know if Montreal has it but no I you know down the middle was

was always sort of maybe not a concern for them but I don't know you look at how Chandler-Sievison's playing in particular they have they have they have guys and yeah another one I mean we're gonna I'm psyched about it we have two good series but yeah we do potentially. We are joined by Sarah Savian, the beatwriter covering the Carolina Hurricanes for the athletic. Sarah, I ended maybe a little sooner than we thought with that. I think that Carolina team could have gone on a run, but I don't, I walk away from the playoffs not feeling disappointed in what they did because they ran into a powerhouse. Like, you can't get mad, can you?

No. And I guess like what's so disappointing, I guess maybe around. here and to the players is that you're just never going to have that Cinderella run that you had before in 2019, right? You're never going to have that again. It's never going to be as fun and magical as that. Unfortunately, it's going to be hard work and it takes good goaltending and great players and keeping some good players and like knowing what moves to make now to make it to that next step. It's so difficult. That's why so few people like the lightning can do it. But you also have to remember that the lightning went through their own struggles for years. Like,

It's not, the window isn't closing. It's just opening, but nobody wants to hear that. This is the same thing with Colorado, and I like that we're bookending this with Peter. Like, there's nothing to panic about with either of these teams. Like, this is not, this is how it goes in hockey. You don't arrive. And if you do, even if you do arrive and you're like the penguins and you win one young, you might take eight years off before you go back to back again.

You know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's hard. And it takes a long time and it's a process. This team's good and set up. This is, this is, hopefully. This is fit. No, don't panic. Rod Pindeport, Dughey Hamilton.

What else? I mean, this is, this is phase two for them. This is the way it works. Like, you have, you have the honeymoon period where they're a young, up and coming team, and everybody loves them. It happens with everybody. It happens with Tampa and Pittsburgh and whatever else. And then you have, then you have the portion of the process where you have to eat

some, eat some crap. And that's, that's kind of, that's kind of where they are. It's, it's something, it's something everybody goes through. Oh, for sure, for sure. They're obviously in a few unique situations here, though. So we'll see. I, I feel like that just needs to quell the anxieties. It, uh, it's like what? What are these, what are these specifically interesting situations in, in North Carolina? Well, which one you want to talk about first? Yeah. Let's go Jack Adams frontliner, not yet signed and kind of making snarky comments about it. And we all know the situation where Tom Dundon is an owner that will kind of let you go to your end's wit until he signs you.

And it kind of like it might be savvy business moves, but it gives everybody a heart attack for like three weeks. I don't know. Brindamore wants his staff taking care of. Obviously, that's been widely reported. And it's smart of him. It's a good move of him. And it's also that he deserves to be paid.

fairly too. He's not going anywhere else, but I feel like he'd rather not coach than be disrespected. Do we think, so, like, I'm okay with Tom Dunden. Like, I'm actually really interested in him and find, like, if I was a fan of a team, I wouldn't, I'd like if Tom Dunden was my owner. I think I would. Like, I think he's smart and he thinks differently. I don't know if I'd want to be employed by Tom Dunden necessarily. Um, because he clearly is like, here's what I've value, here's what I don't value. If I'm an assistant coach that seems to be falling under the I don't really value it category, and maybe I'm oversimplifying it here, like, they can't be great for like internal motivation for employees. You know what I mean?

No, exactly. Especially when you already know that these people aren't making market value. They're not making anything. And it's like they won't be respected. So I get, yeah, I feel like your take is really good on that. Like you look at the on ice product and the three years of playoffs that had not happened for a decade and or ever actually with this franchise. I'm going to playoffs three consecutive times in a row, maybe once. But yeah, you can't argue that. So yeah, the on-nice product, you want to be a fan of that or maybe like a player for the team. But like when you get to the nitty gritty employees, I don't know if that would be the best

place. Right. The assistant thing is amazing to me. It comes up in football a lot too, where you talk. about head coaches that are, you know, whatever, they hold out to get the assistance more money. At least in football, you're talking about a bigger staff, right? So if you're, if you have 10 or 12 guys on staff and everybody gets a raise, it's a more relevant, a more relevant amount of money. Like, this seems like it's one of those things where the juice, the juice is worth the

squeeze. Just, just, just allocate the month. Alicate, allocate, allocate 400 grand or whatever it is for these for these three guys and then and have and have a happy group. It seems like it should be worth it. And I mean, whatever. Tom, Tom Dundon is a, is a, is a rich, rich man and I'm sitting in a shitty apartment, but like, not for long, not for long. Not for long. Not for long. Slightly like, yeah, I don't know. It seems like it seems like it's something that they should, that they should be able to work out, right? I don't know. Not if you're not if you have your stance and your time done and then you're like, yeah, this is what I believe. I don't know. And yeah, you can't say it hasn't worked out for him or the team. That's the thing. But I feel like one

day it just might approach the line and cross it a little too much. And it's like, it seems like there's a high probability for that to happen somewhere along the line this off season just because there's so many moves to make with Spech's contract and then Dougie, will he say, will he go? And what actually is, I feel like people's brains are being clouded by that right now too, because it's like, well, should you actually pay? Like, what if this was Montreal? Like, are you, like, what would your opinion be? Should you pay him 8.5 for eight years or not?

I feel like it'd be different if it was a different team. But now people are like, oh, Carolina's cheap. When actually, it's something they really have to think about. You're right. You're right. It does, anytime they do something, even if it's smart, it becomes the trope. Carolina's cheap, right? Even if it's like, hey, this is actually,

maybe paying Dougie Hamilton 10 million isn't a great idea or whatever. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, I feel like there issues the term right now, which makes sense. Right. Do you suck it up? That makes all the sense in the world to me. Like having legitimate concerns over whether to lock into Dougie for eight years or whatever

it is. I get that. But when you're talking about half the cost of an entry level deal to keep the very successful coaching staff happy and in place, like that's one of those things where I'm like, I don't, that doesn't make sense. Trying to figure out whether Dougie's worth it. Like, I get that. because that's a major commitment, long-term, multiple millions, blah, blah, blah,

but like, just just keep the guys who you have happy. Yeah, and that's the thing. It's not just about, oh, they need to be rich or make this amount of money. It's about, like, keeping morale high. And I mean, like, obviously Rodbrenner doesn't really care about the money, but sometimes they'll say that in interviews and it's like, oh, my God. Like, why are you saying that publicly? Like, you should still pay him what he deserves.

It's just not a great look, but we'll see what happens. I'm going to play Tom Dundden for a second, though. Let's say at the end of the day, he's like, I've got this salary structure in my head. This is what we can afford to pay, you know, Trip Tracy and the TV people, and this is what we can afford to pay the assistant coaches. But Rod Brindamor is different. Is there, if they bring in two experienced coaches, there's two more waiting. Like there's a pretty big pool of assistant coaches that are good at assisting coaching.

is like, does this really at the end of the day make a discernible difference to the career line if they move on from their, maybe. Maybe Rod is the different. Maybe he's the guy that says, I won't have that. Like, that's, but I don't know. Can you cycle through assistance? That's the thing. It's the uncertainty that we don't know. Because it's like what he's doing is pretty unprecedented here in the way that he operates. So we don't know. Maybe it will be the best thing ever, but it seems like it's not when you think about like what Robert Moore's asking. Every success, team has to over extend themselves at some point in one way or another. They need to find exceptions to the rule and do things that make them uncomfortable. That's just, that's just the way it is. I get it. I respect like the disruptor kind of game changer aspect of things, but not everything is going to go according to plan. You're going to have times where you're like, all right, maybe we should go $200,000 above budget to keep to keep the coach happy. Like, it's crazy.

I agree with you. We'll see. Yeah. Let's talk Dougie because so he is now for you to talk to teams. A bit of another, again, the maneuvers is unique to the situation. It's like the Wadell thing. Yeah. Is that a Donnie Waddell thing or is that a Tom Dunner thing?

No, no. I meant like when Waddell was getting his contract, he was allowed to talk to other teams. Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. But I feel like, yeah, I'm just trying to, I was cycling through my history with Don to see if he had done this with any other players. But like if I don't mind like, if it's like, okay, here's what we think you're worth. You might as well find out now.

Like, we want to keep you. That the unknown with the player is always, hey, I can get more in the open market. So. And then it creates this thing where it becomes too late after July 1st or whatever and the guy's gone. I actually don't mind it. Like, go find out what you're worth. Yeah. Especially like in these times, like establishing the market value.

How are you going to do it? I guess like you can look at competitive. parables from the past, it's still not perfect. So maybe go see what you're worth. And if the canes are willing to match that, it's like, do your own offer sheet, I guess. Right. I don't know.

So what's your, what do your instincts say here on Dougie's and his future? I don't know. I feel like this is kind of unprecedented, but not really, but like at the same time, I do feel like this isn't the same team without Doug. And Sean was just saying you have to sometimes overpay.

Like you look at Vegas. and you look at Tampa Bay, like these teams in one way or another are not like under the budget. So you've got to take a leap of faith somewhere. I know Dougie, like, it's strange because he's so people lose their minds about him in any which way. But the facts are that he's an elite offensive for defensemen and an above average defensive defenseman. And take that as you will. But do I think it's, if they can get him for under. under 8.5 million in eight years or something like that.

Like they gotta. I mean, how are you going to replace that? Or you better have a good backup plan because this is your cup window and you're going to throw it away. If you're based on defense, you've traded Flurry, you've traded Edmondson, or you let him go. You let Calvin Dahan, you traded Calvin Dahan. Like the list goes on of like what once was such a good blue line.

And it still is. But if you put Duggy away from that, like that kind of just takes everything away. So is that like the top of the column you're working on right now for this? Is that, is that like the nut graph basically? Basically, that's, yeah, good old nutgraph. The old nutgrave. Jay school, baby. Can we work in some more old-timey lingo into this conversation? I work for newspaper for like two and a half years. I know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, it is weird though, just like, I don't know. It's a huge risk to let him go. It's a risk to keep him, but like that risk can be mitigated because it's, Is he worth the maybe bad four years of the end of his career? If you like to be contending in the cup in the beginning five, yeah, I think so. Maybe though in Dougie Hamilton you've discovered, because this is, this is on some level a team that operates in the market inefficiencies, right? So maybe you say, okay, with Dougie, we've discovered, hey, there's certain kinds of players that we can acquire that other teams don't like.

to have, you know, maybe play a certain style or are more offensive than defensive on the, you know. And so you could have a list of guys that check that, check those boxes and say, all right, let's go do it again and find the next Dougie Hamilton. I don't know, you know. That's like, that has been their plan when they kind of let free agents walk or whatever it is. But at a certain point, do you run out of those people?

I feel like they're trying to make that from Jake Bean. And that's just not working out right now. Maybe in like five years, he can be the next duggy. Hamilton, but you just saw from these playoffs that he's not there yet. He's not ready. And maybe Ron Francis will scoop him up anyway. So that's another thing to worry about, right? Like the expansion draft. What if they take a defenseman? And then who do you even have? Like, Jacob Slavin and Brett Peschi can play half. They keep playing like half the game of like every playoff game. But like there's only so much they can do. It's, it's wild whenever you look at that

group now. Because every like a year or two ago, everyone's like, oh, they have, they have all these guys and now you start you start going through and you're like this one this one might be gone for reason x and this one might be gone for reason why and stuff gets stuff gets thin quickly yeah yeah i feel like you can rotate in and out like the kind of supporting cast but i feel like you need to keep slaven pesci and dougie together to keep this the blue line that it is at least it's a little bit reminiscent i think of the anaheim ducks because i mean and maybe because you met brought up shay theodore sean but like there was a point where they were like hey we can just donate defensemen to, you know, Sammy that and into the devil.

You know, just we have so many. And they were loaded. Like when they were in the Ducks heyday and you looked at them and, Shea Theodore can't correct the lineup. But then all of a sudden you wake up and you have Cam Foller and you're in last place or whatever. You know what I mean? Cam Thaler is slander. My God.

No, I mean, like, I love Cam. But like, it's last man standing or something, you know. I think that's, I think that's a peril of success for organizations like the hurricanes. And you see it with baseball a lot, too. I mean, I'm in Pittsburgh, so of course, like, my brain defaults of this sort of thing. But it happened with the pirates a couple years ago where, like, they keep dumpster diving for pitchers, right? And they find these guys and they rehabilitate them. And they had a hot streak where it was like they had two or three or four or whatever it was.

You run the risk of thinking that every sort of lottery ticket that you play is going to hit. And that's not that's not the way it works. You can have hot streaks where, you know, where everything you touch turns to gold, but it's not going to be that way forever. and I think that might be the situation they're in with defensemen, right? Because you say, like, oh, yeah, we'll just, we'll just find another one. We'll find another one. And that's just not, that's not the way, that's not the way player development works, whether you're good at something or not.

Like, you're going to have times where you miss. And they're at a point in their development right now where they can't miss. They can't, they can't play a lottery ticket on the Dougie Hamilton replacement and have it and have it not hit. Exactly, especially because you got Nadelcovich kind of like that is really working out. He's going to be the guy. and then you're re-signing Spechnikov, you have Ajo and Taravinen on these matching deals.

You got to play to win now. Last thing, Sarah, do Dougie Hamilton, do we think his quotes about Tampa he meant him is? When that happened, I'm like, Dougie, come on. Because, like, he, I think I interpret it more as, like, not a call out to the canes, but kind of like, see what you can do when you spend a lot of money. Like, when you look at the full full,

that's. Yeah, when you look at the full quote. that was kind of like a sin, not sinister, but that's how I interpreted it, knowing Dougie. But then, of course, everybody immediately tweeted out the, we lost to a team, 18 million over the book, which he did say. My bad on that. I think I was, I think I was part. Everybody, everybody started tweeting it out. No, you were putting in on the call.

If you were on the Zoom, you would have known not to do that, but if you weren't on the Zoom, it's like, oh, wow, he just said that. And like, yeah, he did say it. And he like kind of backed up what he said. He's right. He's right. Like there's a space for the, in the lightning cap discussion where you're like, yeah, this is like they, it's a loophole, man. That's like they were, there were $19 million over like not their fault. All credit to him for pulling it off.

But like, that's that that is what it is. That was, that was a loaded team. There's no, there's no salt there. That's just the way it happened. Exactly. He was like, they're just so good. And like, you need to pay your big players. Speaking of which, my contracts.

Oh, by the way. It would have been great if you said, I'll go on long-term injured reserve for a year. It helps at all. I'm happy to work. Handshake deal. Sarah, thanks for doing this. I hope you're able to take some time off in a minute here because you've been grinding away. And it's been awesome.

The coverage has been awesome. And it's going to be a crazy off season for you. But I hope, you know, try to say. sneak away for a second if you can. You have moments of peace maybe here and there. Thanks so much for having me. Oh, that's fun. Thank you, Sarah.

See it. Yeah, a lot of decisions who made in Carolina, Sean. I like off seasons like that as a beat writer a little bit. But sometimes you want to disappear and come back. But there's going to be, she's going to have something to write about every single week until the season opens. So we're in the, we're in the Dougie Hamilton portion of the calendar right now, I feel like, right?

Yeah. Like that's what, it's wild that that jumped the line and that's what we're talking about. now after talking about Brindamore three days ago. So yeah. Right. And then expansion draft, they're going to lose somebody good, probably because they're a good team,

and that's what good teams do in expansion drafts. Like, it's not stop. It's fun. It's good. More Carolina Hurricanes talk. At all times, that's what I love that stuff. We are now joined by Peter Baugh,

Colorado Avalanche Beat Rider. It gets thrown, I was just thrown into the fight. Good Lord. The athletic in the hockey group. Like, hey, welcome to the hockey group. Peter, you now have to cover a Stanley Cup team at the peak of their powers and see what happens. Peter, how are you?

I am doing well. It's been, I'm admittedly done with my first season a little earlier than I thought it was going to go. I was kind of, I had blocked out. I'll be going probably until July or so. And now it's done, but I'm doing quite well. So, Colorado, again, I feel the same way I do about the avalanches I do, the hurricanes. Vegas is a really good team. They didn't, like, I saw a lot of Colorado choked headlines or whatever.

I don't feel like Colorado choked. That wasn't my takeaway from the series. Now that it's settled in a little bit, and you can look at the whole picture, what's your assessment of what happened? Yeah, I mean, I think it's In some ways They did choke in that they were six minutes away From taking a three-nothing series lead And if you have a three-year series lead

That's all but over And they did lose four games in a row For the first time this season And scored first and I believe five of the six games And blew two third period leads In the series So you're not helping my You're not helping my

I love it. Blow it up This is great. But I see what you're saying, Craig, and I agree with you that I think that when you have a series like this, it leads to overreaction. You know, like if the bracket had been different and the abs have lost to the Knights in game six of the Stanley Cup, which like if the abs were in a different division this year could have easily happened. You know, like the division alignment led to the two best records being in the same division. and playing in the second round. And I think there's a lot of overreacting going on.

And I think Colorado has a really good roster and will continue to have a really good roster. And losing to Vegas doesn't change that. You know, like I think that it was a great regular season, a disappointing postseason end. But again, Vegas is one of the, I mean, I think Colorado, Vegas and Tampa are probably the three most talented teams in the league. So it's, it's, you're going to have results like this sometimes. And it's a bummer for the abs that it happened in the second round, because now it's

three years in a row and there's the whole can they get out of the second round narrative. But that's, that's kind of how it, how it cookie crumbles sometimes. Yeah, I thought your, I thought your post-mortem about that series was, was really good. And it was up quickly too. It was up, I feel like that was a, that was a morning after type thing where you were just kind of going through the ways that, you know, yes, you know, the future's still bright. You don't want to overreact the losses and all that stuff,

but that's also a team that could look fundamentally different next year, whether it's, I mean, it starts with Landisog, obviously, but then you have Brandon Sade pricing himself out potentially and on and on. Like there is going to be some, there is going to be some turnover there. And I think that's got to be part of what leads to, you know, this sort of consternation surrounding them, right? Totally.

Yeah, it's, it's an interesting, I mean, Joe Sackick said at the trade deadline that this is probably as deep as of a roster that they're going to have. And when you have as deep of a roster as they did, you want to get, you want to get far in the playoffs. And they weren't able to do that. And I think that you're going to see like, I mean, Landiskegg is a UFA, Groove hours a UFA. And potentially the most impactful of all is that Kail McCar is an RFA and it's going to get a massive pay raise. So you have, A lot of people you need to pay if you want to keep the team looking the same and they're not going to be able to pay all of them. Someone's going to go to Seattle.

And it's going to be a team where it kind of shifts from a team that had extra cap space and could make moves to get someone like Devon Taves for two second round picks. Now they're going to be a team that maybe has to unload some players, maybe not at Devon Taves's level, but unload some players to create cap space to keep kind of this core intact. and which will lead to them relying more on younger players like Alex Newhook and St. Brantan, guys that they need to step up in their first or second years. I would push back a little bit on Joe Sackick's conclusion that this is the deepest they'll be, because I think we've said that for other teams. And with a little cap creativity, and I don't mean it like snarky, lightning cap creativity. Not that they did anything wrong.

I mean it like you can acquire players, you can just, target players differently. Like, they could take on Brandon Sod's salary and not, you know, and it wasn't a big deal, right? You didn't have to be creative there. But you can now run Brandon Saud through, you know, San Jose next time and throw in a third round pick and you're getting Brandon Sod at half the price or whatever. You know, it's just going to take, I think there was, you know, it's less paid by numbers and more, okay, let's look at what the lightning has been doing for the last three years in inquiring

Blake Coleman and Barclay Goodrow and in making and targeting guys that not only fit what they need, but also are probably underpriced. I just think it's going to look different in Colorado. I don't think it's going to look worse. I tend to agree with you. And you also have this, like, there's also a scenario in which Bowen Byram is electric next year. Alex Neurop takes a step in his middle. These are good young players.

You're not like, hey, we got to fill in with some stock. Oh, we got to fill in with the guy that was the fourth overall pick or whatever. Exactly. So, and like, if you have, if those guys by year three are playing at an elite level, which is, I mean, that's who knows how they're going to develop. But like then you all of a sudden have, I mean, an incredible defensive core. Because I mean, one thing I think that's so oppressive about the avalanche is you have, I mean, Devon Taves and Samuel Gerard are both top pairing level defensemen. And they have them together under contract for like, million dollars total for the next like huge advantage big yeah big do you think um jared bedner's and i don't want to say trouble but is there any heat there i mean it's not like they're getting bouncing round one yeah it's it's tough i i don't think i think there's there's fans who certainly want him gone there have been some some media people in denver who that's been a topic but at the end of the day this is a team that had the best record in hockey and lost in the playoffs in a close six

game series to a team that tied them for the best record in hockey. So run the coach out. Yeah. I keep saying this to people and it's like it's so I can see why it is so frustrating to lose in the second round. But say the avalanche were in the central division this year and Vegas was in the west and like they met in the Stanley Cup and lost in the second. six games. There's no way Bedner's job is in danger. And to be fair, that's not what happened.

They lost in the second round. Like that's, they've lost three years in a row in the second round. I think the first two years, I mean, against San Jose two years ago, they were young and experienced. Like, just getting to game seven in the second round was impressive. Last year, they were completely banged up and still almost beat Dallas. This year, there's not really an excuse other than that. Vegas is just a really, really, really good team. But I think that I think that I think that, I think that Benner, I would be surprised if they moved on, but I mean, they did have probably the most talented roster in the NHL and they didn't make it past the second round for the third year in a row.

He said after the game, like, I take full responsibility, but also I find it hard to, I mean, Jared Benner couldn't account. Jared Benner's coaching didn't lead to Nazim Kadri being suspended for 8-Ga for Eric Johnson missing the entire playoffs, you know. What happens with Gruberauer? Like what's, what does the contract look like? Are they willing to make the big commitment to him? Yeah, I mean, that's the big question, right?

I'm curious what, because it also comes down to what Gruber wants. Like, does he want to just get the absolute most money possible? Or is he like, Colorado is a place that I'm comfortable. I've worked well in this system. I'm already kind of established there. I think that's a really interesting question of if, and also if you're the avalanche, Philip Gruberra had an amazing season,

but he was totally helped by just this amazing defensive core and a team that allowed like 23 shots a game or whatever during the regular season. If you're the avalanche and Gruberauer is getting big offers, you have a decision to make of do you match that or do you use that money on some of those forwards and then maybe get a guy like, I don't know, like anti-Rants as a free agent, you know, like someone like that who's maybe a downgrade, but also might play just as well behind such a good defensive core.

Those are the tough, like when you talk about, okay, they've got all these raises coming, you have to skimp somewhere, and there's always his temptation to do it in goal, right? Like you're like, hey, there's always, you know, there's a musical chairs of goalies, and you can get somebody on the cheap or maybe, you know, look at Carolina, you find a guy that comes out of nowhere,

my inclination would be to go to that would be my path like I'm paying landa scog I'm paying the defenseman I'm I'm I'm I'm lucky but you know then you see like a guy like vasselowski or something just the the advantage that gives a team that has a somebody they really believe in and you have to just figure you have to figure out if grubauer is that guy for you or not or if he's you can cycle through a little bit there totally I mean and he was a Vesna finalist this year at a great great season but there is the question of how much of that that and daves have a really good, they have really smart people in that front office and in that analytics department. And I'm sure they have a lot of numbers that they're crunching about

what his, like, how much the defense impacted Grubhauer's performance. But I do think like he's someone they'd like to have back and they, they really see as a valuable part of this team. But it's just, like you said, there's a lot of, there's a lot of questions they have to answer this off season. And I do think, like, I think there's maybe the temptation. to give kale McCar like a bridge deal or maybe that's what they end up doing but if I'm if I'm the Amalanche I want Camacar signed as long as I possibly can and rip her team I don't want to mess around at the bridge I want to pay him what it needs to keep in long term I if I'm if I'm cal McCart there's no chance I'm signing an EU deal or whatever none yeah zero in this in this

economy like right now like with nobody knows anything about what the cap's going to look like in three years. You couldn't pay me. Like, no way. I'm going bridge and betting on myself because he's, he's that good. He's so good.

Like, they were just like, it's like he does one thing a game where you're like, oh my gosh, how does, how did you just do that? And he's got a good head on his shoulders. Like he's,

he's really smart. And yeah, so maybe that's the answer where he, he doesn't want to sign a long-term deal because he knows that in three years if the cap is up, Maybe he can cash in. But if you're the ads, like, I would try and do everything I can to over, not overpay, because it's not overpay for him.

I don't know if you can overpay him. Yeah. I definitely want to see a 24-year-old Kail McCar or whatever hit the market with an $88 million cap or whatever it ends up being and just see somebody give him, you know, $12 million a year or something. Let's make it happen. I mean, he's 22. If he signs a, like, three or four-year deal, he's still in his mid-20s.

Yeah, exactly. And he'll probably have a couple norrises by that. He's unbelievable. I feel like he's American. Can we just claim him? Doesn't he feel American? Yes. I think it's because a college hockey guy.

I am. See, I don't feel that way just because, like, talking to people around him, like, his dad, like, uses A and text. His dad's super Canadian. I don't know about super Canadian, but it's like, I don't know. He's just like a nice Alberta guy, you know? Yeah. He went to UMass, baby.

He's ours. He's ours. We get them. And his brother's at UMass now. That puts you into the system. I'm putting them on my next Olympic hockey roster and see if. I wonder, yeah, I wonder if there would be a way for the ads to have two macars at some point. Younger brother's not quite as.

what isn't drafted, but, you know, I, with, if you have Cam McCar's like DNA, I, I would take a chance on you, you know, like if you're, if you have the McCar like, like, how many times have we seen it? Guy, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, gamble on DNA, A, and, and make, and make, and make the brother happy. Why not? I, I see no reason why not. All right, we're over time, but Peter, lightning round the land of scog future can you can you get it get us what exactly is going to happen in 10 words or less okay i think it seems i think it's going to be tricky i think it's maybe the two sides are going to have to like i i don't know i mean they didn't have any discussions during the

regular so there's going to be like they're going to have to take some time on the common ground um but i do think one thing that the early exit does is it gives them some time ahead of the expansion drafts ahead of. And I think probably the smartest route is you make him your absolute best offer before like the expansion draft or before like the Cracken free agency window or whatever and just tell him like here, here's what we can do. Like this is yours to take it or leave. And that prevents like some other team that maybe would make a reckless offer to him

and him having a huge contract out there. But you want to get him signed before. he hits the market. I think he stays listening to him post game. That did not sound like a guy who was about to leave. Like he was talking about how excited he is to be a part of this group. He was talking about how the group will need to learn things going forward from this. And like obviously, what else is he going to say then?

But it just didn't strike me as, oh, I'm about to leave. But I mean, I didn't think Alex Petrangelo was going to leave St. Louis. So you never know. No, you don't. Peter, thanks for doing this. I appreciate you hopping on. Yeah, anytime. That was fun. Thanks, Peter. Thanks, take care. That was great. I love how Peter got to know that team so well and was thrown into covering a team in the middle of a huge year. And now, like, he's never even met those players. That's the wildest part of it. Like, he's never, like, Gabriel Anascock doesn't know what he looks like, right? Because that's just, that's what, that's, those are the circumstances that everybody's worked under, especially Peter when he started covering the team, you know, nine months ago or whatever it is.

Yeah, great, great job under, under a strange deal. Yes, he did such a great job. All of our young writers did under really difficult circumstances that switched beats or just were first year on a beat. You know, Haley did it in Calgary. Yeah. It was sod and Dallas. Like, I think of the job they did under those circumstances. like how they kept telling really unique good stories when when they were just dropped into it.

That's true. It's true for all of them, but I mean, Pete's fresh on my mind because we just talked to him. I mean, he wrote one of the definitive Kail McCar stories. And again, like hasn't met him, right? So just it's crazy, but it's true. So, yeah, it's good work from him, good work from a lot of other people. All right. Let's throw a break and get back because we have a few more topics.

So we weren't able to get to in part A, I think we have a couple of things you want to get off our chest. So let's throw a break and we'll jump back into it. So best of luck to Western Pennsylvania hockey legend, Stephen Johns, who announced his retirement on Monday. We know all about his story, dealt with post-concussion syndrome and depression and a lot of different things over the last couple years with the Dallas star. Sean Shapiro wrote a really, really good story last year about his, about John's road back and all the, all the obstacles he's faced and everything he's dealt with, really over his entire career. We saw yesterday he's, he's done and he's going to roller blade across across the country and just kind of, you know, decompress that way and connect with people. And I, I thought that's a really,

you know, I'm glad to see it. I'm glad to see he's, he seems like he's in a, He's in a good place and, you know, taking that kind of direction, I think, at the end of his career, it's a, it's a cool thing for a guy who's certainly been through a lot. And like I said, he's from, he's from Elwood City, PA. So I've, I've followed his career for a long time and, you know, happy, happy trails of him and best luck moving forward. I love this. The roller thing is great, too. I want to, like, join him for a stretch if I could keep up, which I couldn't. You're going to be on roller skates, actually. Not blades.

I just want to do, I want a water ski behind him. Like, if he could just give me like a rope and something where I could just have him pull me through a middle, little stretch of America. You know, one of the things that struck me hearing that story was, and, you know, I'm not projecting on him in particular, but in general with players is how difficult this year was for a lot of players. And the word I heard a lot was lonely, right? Like, not only, like the mental toll this year of being on the road not being able to leave your room or whatever, it was, I know hard on a lot of people.

And I really hope, you know, whatever that taking care of yourself mentally looks like to each player. And in this case, we see what it looks like to Stephen Johns. I hope people are doing that because it wasn't an easy year. And we didn't really talk about it that much. No. And it's also just a reminder of especially guys whose careers end a little bit. I mean, everyone's career ends before they won it, right? But Stephen John is 29 years old, man.

Like, he's got, he's got so much, so much life ahead of him and so much time to figure out what comes next. And yeah, it's just, it's a reminder of a lot of different things. And like we said, if you want more about that, about his, about his, about his journey over the last few years, find Sean Shapiro's story. It's, it's really, really good. And in the meantime, nothing but good, thanks for John's. If we had show notes, we could add a link. I'll tweet out a link with this. And all right, I wanted to say something before we wrap up about the recent coaching

hires in Columbus and New York and Jared Glandt going to the Rangers, Brad Larson going to Columbus. And this is going to be a little defense of Brad Larson because these two hires are kind of tied together because I know there was an element of the Columbus fan base that wanted Gerard Glant to be their coach. He seemed to be the best coach available. He wins the world championships with Canada, I guess. I forgot what happened in that tournament really specifically. Allegedly wins a gold with.

And so, like, everything's pointing to George Glant as the guy you want. Brad Larson, if you're a fan, I get why you're not excited, right? Assistant coach on a team that, you know, I would argue overachieved. But like you could say, didn't achieve what you wanted. Certainly not in the last year. I'm John Tortorella. But anytime you give a promotion to an assistant coach, I don't, I think fan bases are not excited about it. But in defense of Brad, one, I would say, there's, the other criticism is we, the league tends to recycle coaches.

So anytime a coach is recycled, you get, hey, how about giving somebody new a chance and, see what happens. Well, that's what's happening here. B, Brad Larson is, I got to know him really well as a young writer covering the Atlanta Thrashers a long time ago. And I came in, just to give you kind of a glimpse into the person that Brad is, I came in not knowing anybody from anything, was covering football at the time, and really was just learning the way. And right away learned, realized how much Brad was trusted by the coaching staff and talking at the time it was Bob Hartley and Brad McCriman and Steve Weeks and some of these the coaching staff there they brought him in because they knew you know Bob knew him from Colorado and had huge success with him as a leader as a you know

fourth line grinder and and so he he relied on him with some of the young players in Atlanta and as a young writer he was a guy who I got to know and he was really helpful to me just explaining dynamics of, you know, the games and the dressing room, how things worked. And, you know, Sean and I talked about what the next phase looks like. And it's a lot of young players. And it's a lot of making people feel comfortable and communicating with them. And Brad's really good at that. And I, like, he was, him and Scott Mellonby in that dressing room and in Slavikadslav,

in year one of my covering the league were go-to guys because they were so helpful and articulate and seemed to care about how their team was represented in the media. I think that was probably more than wanting to help a young writer for sure. But even that says something, right? Like it's, hey, don't crush Ilya Kovalchuk. Here's what's going on behind the scenes. And here's the reality of the situation. You need to know this as a media member.

And Brad was really good about that. And I saw him get that job. And I'm like, here's somebody who's been, who's earned everything from his opportunity with as a player. like, you know, wasn't, nothing was handed to Brad Larson. Right. Then goes back, works his way up through the ranks. I think John, you know, John Davidson, Yomalick-Klein, know what they're doing here. Nobody liked the John Tortoella hire in the first place back when Columbus made it.

And that hire got crushed. And I would say that was a successful hire. So it's a long-winded way of saying, I know you probably look at Rangers fans and they're all excited about Jared Gland. And I think it's a good hire for the Rangers. But that doesn't mean Brad Larson's not a good hire for Columbus. I think there's a really good chance he's the right guy for this moment in Columbus. Yeah, I think I think the issue there is that he ran the power play and the power play was terrible. It's that, it's that simple.

I get that. And I'm not even saying, like, what do I know about the situation in Columbus, right? But you see the fan reaction and it's like, oh, wow, great. This guy's been here for five years. Our power play's been terrible the entire time. That's why people, that's why people are mad. He might not be good at coaching the power play. Yeah, right.

I'm not going to roll that out. That's exactly what I was going to say. Like, okay, it's, it's fair to say that maybe he's not a great powerplay coach. But I don't know, sometimes you put guys in different situations and, you know, they'll surprise you or perform in a different kind of way. I'm also all for trying to find any possible way. And we've done this a few times to try to work the thrash into the conversation here. So I trust that you will pounce on any and all opportunities to talk about. Any chance to talk about the thrash?

I will absolutely do that. Long of the Southeast Division, baby. Wait till Montreal wins a cup and I'm banging the drum for Scott Mellonby to be the next GM of any opening. Pick a job, any job. Scott Mellon B will succeed at it. Oh, my gosh. All right. So, Sean, before we wrap up, a couple of things.

I want to say, I like how active the comment section has been on our podcast. If you don't have the athletic app, download the app and you can go into our episode. And I do want to, I want to speak specifically to Mitchell E. We left a comment on the last podcast episode who said, every time I listen to any hockey podcast, I'm going to time how long it takes for someone to say Galaxy Brain. Starting with this one. Here we go. And the answer is three minutes and one second.

then so um so galaxy brain so we got it in so there you go i Mitchell just under just under an hour maybe it took us an hour so we have to figure out either if we want to say galaxy brain every podcast we have to decide right now or if we never say it's a galaxy brain i can say this it's one of those words that it's one of those phrases that i've unsuccessfully tried to delete from from the lexicon because it's it's it's it's overused i think we're we're approaching and cliche territory with that. So, yeah, Mitchell, my bad. It's been used, it's been used heavily for a few years and, uh, and habits like that aren't

hard to break, but we'll do it for you, buddy. Um, so Gauty Brain's out. We will ban the phrase Gauty Brain from the Tuesday edition of the athletic sure. It is banned. If you, if you say it, I'm going to get a buzzer. We're going to air horn it. Okay.

And, and I'll probably be the next one to say it. So jump into those comments. We're reading them. Um, and if you have questions, you want us to, we want us to, we, That'd be a good place to put questions. We'd be happy to get them at the end of the show if we want to throw them in there. Any feedback? Like this show was created from feedback in comment sections and reviews.

Literally, it was like we need more American talk. And here we are beating a dead horse with American talk. The other thing before we wrap is definitely check out the other days of the week of the athletic hockey show. It's fantastic. But we have a good lineup of guests. Matt Cook, I think this is the most interesting one, John, and you know Matt well from time in Pittsburgh. He's joining Mike Russo on straight from the source this week. I'm sure there's no shortage of things to talk about. He, I, Matt Cook is a fun guy to talk to. So, um, make sure

you check that out. It felt like, especially after the Tom Wilson debate or whatever, how the, the Tom Wilson affair last month, it felt like it was a matter of time before Matt Cook found his way on to a podcast. I mean, he talked about that in the past. And of course he ends up with Rousseau. So yeah, that's a, that's going to be a less lesson. Yeah, listen to that. And the other thing I want to highlight is the Friday edition of this show, which is the Prospect series with Max Baltman and Corey Promin. I know Max, this is, I'm not saying Sean and I don't take this seriously.

We do lots of prep going into this at least three days worth of prep for a prep. I'm like averaging probably four and a half, but whatever. I get, I work harder than you. It's okay. But that's your. Max, like Max literally went to Erie to watch a prospect tournament. He's, talk about genuine and like hardworking and wanting to do well. Max like goes to Erie.

And part of his, he's like, look, I have to be able to ask informed questions. So he's watching all these prospects at a prospect tournament in Erie last week. And, you know, that way that conversation with Corey is informed and it is. It's a great episode to listen to. So if you're in a prospect, check that out. And also, Corey, this is completely aside, but he just dropped his rankings today at the Athletics. So if, so check that out to have. I think it's what I haven't looked top 100 or one.

Whatever he does. It's 151, I believe. We, uh, it, I, no joke. I read that this morning and was like, ah, crap, we should have, we should have got him on the show. He has his own thing. He doesn't need us. And immediately reminded myself, he's, he's got the show with Max on Fridays now. So yeah, those guys are, those guys are working hard.

It's, we're, we're approaching, we're approaching the Corey Prawnman part of the calendar for sure across, across the board. That's right. It's Corey's music right now. And if you're not, so to check out, not just be able to leave comments in the pod, but to read all of Corey's draft coverage, all of Sean's TV commercial rankings and ratings. Occasionally I'll write all of our hockey coverage. This is, I know it's June, but July is, you know, besides the same thing of file, we have so much going on and so much plan around expansion draft and free agency.

As we had with Sarah and Peter, each team has. a million things going on. And we've got it all covered. If you're not subscribing to The Athletic, go to the Athletic.com slash hockey show, and you can get in for $3.99 a month. And that's that. Sean, thanks for doing this.

It's always fun. I don't know why I thank you. I don't know. Like you're a guest. Oh, here. Thanks for doing your job, Sean. You're welcome. I'm doing this out of the goodness in my heart, as always.

I honestly, I need a nap. A two-guessed episode is like, it's time to go. It's time to go lay down. All right. Because you're tiring enough as is. Wow. That's right.

That's right.