The Athletic Hockey Show - Which bottom-10 NHL team could win a Cup within 10 years?

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

The 2025 NCAA men’s ice hockey tournament is set to begin Thursday, leading up to the Frozen Four on April 10 and 12, and Max, Corey, Scott, and FloHockey’s Chris Peters have you covered with a preview and predictions. First, the guys each rank their top 3 NHL rebuilders on track to win a Stanley Cup over the course of the next decade.Hosts: Max Bultman and Corey PronmanWith: Scott Wheeler and FloHockey’s Chris PetersExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside the athletic, Scott Wheeler, and Corey Prondman and Flow Hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series, presented by E-Trade from Morgan Stanley. We're going to have a fun show today. We're going to talk a little about the NCAA tournament later on. But I want to start with an exercise that Corey suggested about which of the bottom 10 teams from last season are the most likely to win a Stanley Cup in the next 10 years. we're going to use last season because those results are final. Obviously, there are going to be some teams, Detroit, Philadelphia, Buffalo that were not in the bottom 10 last year, that maybe kind of belong in the same conversation. If people want to mention those and their answers, I don't have a problem with that.

But just to keep some kind of boundary on it, we are going to go with the bottom 10 from last year, which just to refresh everybody's mind was San Jose, Chicago, Anaheim, Columbus, Montreal, Arizona, now Utah, Ottawa, Calgary, Seattle, and New Jersey. So from that pool, Scott, give me your number one team to win a Stanley Cup in the next 10 years. I'll go with the San Jose Sharks. I've been really sort of excited by what they've done this year, despite how poor they've been in the standings, despite the goal differential. I think McConcelabrini is a transformational player for them. I think Will Smith has played at a very, very, very, very high level over the last two or three months here and has me excited about the ongoing potential for Will Smith to be an up. operational and point producer in the NHL and kind of very obviously different conversations, but kind of the dry sidle to the McDavid or the Rantman to the McKinnon kind of thing.

I think Will Smith has a chance not to be a Hall of Famer that those guys are going to be, but to be a high-end, high-end offensive talent. And I'm excited about what they have coming elsewhere in the organization. I think Yaroslav Ascarov's a stud. I think Sam Dickinson is a stud. they're going to add another player of that kind of Sam Dickinson, Will Smith caliber, if you will, in this year's draft by drafting again in the top five. It's not going to be a Mackin-Sellibrini sort of addition to that group, but I would fully expect that they'll add another high-end piece. If they spend their money well, when the time is right, if they strike and they spend their money well in free agency, I think they've got of the teams that are in a true, true rebuild that are really relying on their youth right now.

of Montreal and Anaheim and Columbus, I think they've got a chance to strike when the iron is hot, maybe in a more advantageous way than those other teams do. Chris, how about you? So I also went with the sharks, and it's really for one reason, and one reason only, and that's the centerpiece, and that's Macklin Celebrini. And I think you look at the teams that have won Stanley Cups in recent years,

they have that core player, they have that guy that has been part of the organization, has, you know, made the difference. And for me, you look around the league and you, and you see the players that have come in through the draft over the last couple of years, I don't think that we've seen a player as complete as Celebrini, as as good a building block as Celebrini in, you know, and notwithstanding guys like Connor McDavid and others, but, you know, you see what he is and you get that kind of feeling that, that he is that Nathan McKinnon, and what Nathan McKinnon became for Colorado,

what he can be, even more so than some of the other guys like a Connor Bedard, who we think is going to be a centerpiece for Chicago for a long time to come and the best is yet to come in his career. But really, I think if you have that central figure, and when I think about teams that we'll talk about later, teams like Montreal, teams like, you know, even Ottawa, although Ottawa you can argue,

whether it's Stutz, Chuck, you know, there are there are teams like that in this bottom 10 that have that core player i just don't think there's a single one of them that will match what macklin celebrini's ultimate upside is going to be um and then you know as scott mentioned there's these these these other pieces like you know the will smith can be the the patrick cane to the jonathan taves you know of that kind of thing of that batman and robin kind of scenario that eventually flip-flopped over time i don't think that'll necessarily happen between will smith and celebrini um you know the fact that they do have Ascarov as well is interesting to me.

I think as we've seen, teams can win without centerpiece goaltending, without the elite goalies. It helps when you have it, but it doesn't necessarily preclude you from winning the Stanley Cup. It's much more about building the rest of that team. And I think with with Celebrini at the forefront and then with what they're going to add with this year's draft, they're adding those pieces. So there's more work to be done for the sharks among those other teams. but to me the cheat code is Celebrini.

And you can't win hockey games with one player, but you can't start a rebuild without a cornerstone. And they have it. Yeah, I tried to do mine based on like your replaceable pieces or pieces that would be just impossible to find otherwise. Celebrini certainly fits that definition. I also love where San Jose is positioned, as Scott alluded, to get another one in this draft,

whether it's Matthew Schaefer, Michael Mesa, order Martone. They're going to get another premium piece soon. So I also have one. Is it a clean sweep, Corey? This is where the tough situation is with these kind of exercises because, again, I love Mackin-Colbring. I think he's an elite player.

He has a really good chance to be a top 10, top-five player in the league when he really hits. The problem is where they are at point A right now. And to get from where San Jose is right now, which is still an exciting young team from a talent perspective, but as an NHL team, they're quite poor. And to get from there to win a Stanley Cup, it's such a giant climb. Think about in the last 10, 15 years, how many times we've said we're excited by the young

talent in Buffalo or we're excited by the young talent in Columbus. And the real marginal progress those teams took in different eras. it can be really tough. So I'm not going to put San Jose at one. You know, I just, it's, I just think they have so much to go, so much room to go still to become, they don't mind a playoff team, but a contender. A lot they need to go right.

Yes, we like the velvetist when the young kids, but like is Will Smith going to become a star? Is William Eklund going to become a star? Is Sam Dickinson going to be a star? Is Ascarov? Like, maybe, but there's so much uncertainty there. It's why the team I have won is actually one of those organizations I just named that we said, oh, well, we've always been excited about them. And I'm starting to get excited about them again.

And that's Columbus. And why Columbus, even though they've fallen off a little bit lately in the standings they were in a playoff race or kind of not in the playoff race right now. I look at this lineup, both the current lineup and where I think this team is going. And I see, one, I see the elite pieces. Zach Rowensky is in the MVP discussion this year. They have the elite player. Though I think the way he's playing this year, I think Adam Fantilli is going to get to that elite level.

I don't think he's going to get to McElabrini level, but I don't think he's going to be dramatically off. I mean, this guy looks like he's emerging as a star number one center in this league as he's kind of gotten comfortable, you know, one and a half years into his NHL career. You look at the talent around him. Krile Marchenko is really elevated. Kent Johnson's having a fantastic year. That Tatechucks looked very.

promising as a rookie pro. The rebuild hasn't gone perfect, i.e. David Deercheck, again, not all rebuild are going to go perfect. There's going to be misses. But I just think they're a lot farther along. I think they're like a, you know, 10th, 11th, 12th in the league in goals this year. I think I show up their goals against. But I think there's a lot of promise there where they, like they said, they have the elite

pieces. They have the quality of young depth. And I see a path for them if things continue to go well for them to really build an elite team. Do you worry about the change-off, the handoff from Zach Werensky, who will be 28 this summer, to what that group looks like?

Like five years into this 10 years that we're talking about, Zach Wrenski's going to be 33, 34 years old. Do you think that Werensky can be that, that number one defenseman for them when they're ready to contend for a Stanley Cup? Yes. Yeah, I don't know if it's going to be an MVP,

you know, a conversation, but I mean, how old was Hedman when they won when Tampa won? So I think it's perfectly reasonable that I think he's going to maintain a very high level. Is he going to be this player? I mean, I don't know if he's going to be this player next year. He's playing so far above where he's played before. That's hard to realistically expect that going forward. But I just think there's a lot there that's, you know, to be excited about it.

I can see him, I can see Marchenko being an elite player. I'm not saying he's going to, but I think what he's shown this year, there's absolutely a path for him to become a true top winger in the league. if he's not already kind of on the fringe of that right now. I feel like we saw Dallas kind of pull that off too, to what you're talking about, Scott. Like you have the older player, but then you get this young core,

and you're kind of able to catch the tail end of the older core and the front end of the younger core, and they pulled that off well. I could see that happening too, where Matejek's just getting into his prime, and Werensky's still hanging on to his, and you kind of have both really going. So that would be, I guess, a point in Columbus's favor.

I did not have the blue jackets in my top three, but I do think that was a pretty good argument, Corey. Let's go to Chris to start everyone's number two, Stanley Cup contender of the next 10 years. Yeah, I feel like I went off the board a little bit here for this one. I feel like it's percolating a little bit, but I'm going for the artists formerly known as the Arizona Coyotes and now known as the Utah Hockey Club.

And for me, I just think that it feels like there's a clear vision and there has been since Bill Armstrong has been there in terms of what they're building. they've made a huge focus on the draft. They take the big swing and get Sergeyev, who I think is that guy that can be that, that anchor number one for them and has been. You've got Keller playing some great hockey.

Cooley will be coming into his prime. And then they have a number of players on the way that I think will be good. They'll help, you know, are they going to be massive difference makers? Is Michael Harabal going to be their goalie of the future? I mean, those are some of the things. But as I look up and down, you know, I just feel like they've been kind of building a team that will eventually, like even though some of their best players are these smaller players, lighter players, they've went heavy on drafting for size.

They've gotten more guys that are going to make them a heavier team to play against in the future. I think they have an ownership group on top of that that is willing to spend in order to make some of these moves. I think there's a boldness there. So that I think that that's such a huge fact. in all of this. We don't have a huge body of evidence for what Ryan Smith is ultimately going to be for the Utah hockey club, but the early indications are he's all in. And so with that in mind, you've got the buy-in from the ownership. And I think you combine that with the talent that they have in their front office and the vision that they've kind of created. And I see a path forward there. Now, they've also got this pressure of, hey, we've got to build a fan base. We've got to do all this. So there's going to be aggressiveness. I think in the free agent market, in the trade market. You know, you look at the way that certain guys have matriculated Dylan Gunther,

you know, some of these other players that have overperformed as well. Like, I mean, they kind of have like a found money situation with Olimata finding a way to be a contributor to their team. Not that I think he's going to be a piece for the long term, but it's just, you know, they've got some of that. So the second layer of prospects that they have coming, it's going to be interesting to see kind of how they pan out. obviously Tijigimla's season, you know, was, was ended fairly early this year. So there's still a lot to be seen from him. You're not really sure exactly where that next, you know, that next wave is necessarily going to be. They've got some really intriguing Russian prospects in their system as well.

How long does it take for them to get there? So I realize that this is probably an unorthodox pick, but I think a lot of it actually has to do with where I feel like this owner is going to be putting their money. If they do it smartly and they don't try to overextend themselves too early and build around the core that they put together, I do think the pieces are there for them to be a team that does very well throughout the future here. Coria, you go next. Who is your number two team? My number two team would be New Jersey. And I think New Jersey was a really tough one.

And I think we talked about this in the summer when we were talking about New Jersey's tough season and what they look like going forward is we kind of discussed about when they were rebuilding, did they get enough talent? You know, in the talent accumulation phase of their build, that they get enough elite pieces, obviously they got really good players. Jack Hughes is an incredible player. Nico Heeshire is a great player. The two first overall picks. Dawson Mercer's been a really nice player for them.

They miss on Alex Holtz, obviously, but they still have some really nice young pieces, Simon Nemich, Luke Hughes, etc. So many high picks. But was it enough? obviously, you know, Jack goes down in the middle of the year. It kind of, you know, its context to keep in mind when discussing their season. But they're kind of in a very similar spot to where they were last year. They were middle pack team last year.

They're a middle pack team again, middle of the pack team again this year. You're not really seeing noticeable progress from this organization. But I still think you look at all the pieces. You look at elite talent, you know, Jack is an elite player. You know, you think his brother, Luke, has some traits that make you think he could be an elite player, even if his play can be inconsistent. You know, Nico Heeshire probably is an elite, but he's fringe in that regard. He's an excellent all-around player. Simon Nemich has struggled this year, but you think he's still going to be a, you know, a pretty good long-term piece for them.

They have a really, you know, nice team. It's not a great team right now. So that's kind of like, I don't know sure where you guys fell about New Jersey, but I kind of felt like they're good. I don't know how much more room to grow there is here. There's probably some, but even though when Luke's probably going to get better, Tim O' Myers probably going to hit the other side of the aging curve and it could balance out,

whereas you look at some of those other teams we haven't mentioned, like Montreal, like Ottawa, I know they weren't bottom 10. I put Buffalo in there. There's young pieces there that could potentially have upforce mobility. What do you guys think of New Jersey right now? I landed on the exact same spot on New Jersey at number two on my list. So I'm in the same boat.

I do think they have a chance to elevate here. And I look at them as one of the only teams in this group that has a chance to compete in the entirety of that 10 years. I think had Jack Hughes not gone down this season, they had a chance to add at the deadline and challenge Carolina and challenge Washington into Metro this season. Obviously, they don't make those moves and they don't push those chips in this season with Jack going down. but I think they should continue to be a competitive team. And the big thing that sold me when I was looking at them versus, say, in Ottawa, who I think is kind of in a similar situation with a similar core, the big thing that sold me on the New Jersey Devils is just where their cap sheets at.

I think Jack Hughes at $8 million with the cap going up, Esper Brat in the sevens, Niko Heeshire in the sevens. Those are three of the better contracts in the NHL these days. So I think there will be a natural handoff at some point, as you kind of alluded to, Corey, between Dougie Hamilton and all of those young D that are coming, Anton Selya, of Luke Hughes, Simon Nemich, maybe even Seamus Casey. And then up front, I think they've got the core pieces.

And they should, as the cap goes up, be in a position to spend and add and continue to contend while still having young pieces on the way and filling in the gaps with some young talents. So I'm excited about what the devils potentially have in front of them here. New Jersey third. And one of the reasons is Jesper Bratt's a player who has always been really good. and I just wasn't sure what's he going to look like in big game situations. And I thought the Four Nations answered that question for me. I thought he was one of Sweden's best players, most consistently noticeable players.

Jack Hughes kind of went the other way. I didn't think he was very good at the Four Nations, but he's young enough and good enough that I just think he will find it. I love Heeshire. The defense core is tantalizing, right? Like what they have right now, I feel like should be on paper, one of the best ones in the NHL, and you have Anton Solive on the way. So that's really encouraging.

I do have a question about goal. attending long term. Like, you know, Jacob Markstrom's getting up there. I don't know who the era parent is, but it's a minor enough question that I think they belong in this group. So that's, they're my number three. So I'll just, you know, I'll skip the next round. I didn't Ottawa number two.

And I feel like, like I talked about in the last answer, I looked for guys who I didn't think there was an easy way to replace. I think Ottawa has several of those. I think Brady Kach is one of the more valuable, unique players in the NHL with what he brings. Tim Stutzel, obviously one of the best young centers in the NHL. Jake Sanderson keeps rising. I think I don't know if he'll be quite on my Norris ballot this year, but I'm going to think about it because every time I've watched him this year, I've been extremely impressed by where he's at.

And I think when you can have a top center like that, a top D like that and is unique a power forward and Brady Kachuk as basically there is in the league. I mean, he has a brother, but that's about it in terms of comparables. Ottawa, I think is in amazing shape, especially if Allmark continues to play like he is. Yeah, Ottawa is third for me. I was debating between Ottawa and Montreal at three. And I think the tiebreaker for me was just the elite players and just comparing them. Whereas like Montreal, I think you look at them and that young group is really exciting. But then I think you kind of ask about Montreal like, okay, who is the best player in that organization?

And it might be Suzuki. It might be Cole Caulfield. It might be Ivan Demadov. But then, you know, I would ask, would I take any of those guys ahead of Stutzel? I would guess no, just from what I've seen right now. Right. So that that's kind of where the debate was for me at the moment. But even though I think Montreal's pool is probably deeper overall,

and there's more exciting young players coming. Ottawa is pretty thin after you get past those NHL guys. My one issue with Ottawa is that I worry about what's coming. So unless Tim Stutzla and Brady Kachuk and Jake Sanderson are the core and can really elevate another level and play beyond where they've played this year to get that team into the playoff picture in order to elevate them into the Stanley Cup picture. I just don't know what that next step is for them. Claude Jaroo will be exiting the organization at some point.

They've signed a number of veterans in recent years that are going to continue to get older. And who knows what Thomas Shabbat's role with that organization looks like long term. And then coming, you've got, in theory, in Carter Yakimchuk, a deep prospect that you should be really excited about. But after Carter, there's nothing coming to elevate that organization in the way that in Montreal, you have Demadov and Fowler and IU and some guys coming. And in Columbus, you've got guys coming and younger pieces to build around. And you go down the list, Anaheim with Beckett Seneca and Leo Carlson taking a step. So I just couldn't quite get there on Ottawa. I'm not sure whether Tim Stutzla and Brady Kachuk and Jake Sanderson as, as as, as

dynamic as they all are in their own way, as unique as they all are in their own way. Certainly Jake probably has the biggest headroom in terms of reaching for another level. But I don't know what I don't know what that level for that organization looks like in terms of truly, truly contending for a Stanley Cup. So here's what I'd say, though, is they traded for Dylan Cousins this year. So now you're at a place where you have, I think, your top two centers that you feel, maybe you don't feel quite as good about Dylan Cousins after the way it's gone in the last year or two, which would be fair. But you should have in place your top two centers.

If Yakumchuk hits, you have your whole top 4D. Top three centers with Shane Pinto, frankly. Right, right. So really you're talking about adding wingers. And that's kind of the thing you can find. Like, you know, you have Kachuk up there. They traded for Zetterland. I think that's a nice middle six ad.

Batherson, I think we'll see. He's got only, I think, two more years on his contract after this one. so that's got to be resolved. But I just look at it's the things that they need are the things that you could find. And that's, to me, I think, really enviable. Yeah, and don't forget with the Dillon Cousins thing. He is due the post-Buffalo bump that seemingly every guy that gets traded out of their gets.

He's been great since the trade. He has. And then like that's the thing is like this dynamic is if you add a player like that didn't work one place. But boy, does he seem to fit really well there. you know, there's some potential. Ottawa was definitely the team that I had pegged as a potential number three for a lot of the reasons that have been instated here. I think for me, I took the longer range view because I think there are teams that are more competitive than these teams in the early half of that 10 years.

And that's why ultimately it's like, are you going to be able to get through Dallas? Are you going to be able to get through even Tampa still? Like, you know, these are some of these teams that are still going to be very competitive for that. that Stanley Cup. So I kind of took my, my strategy in picking these teams was thinking a little bit further out. I think Ottawa is probably, you know, among the closest with what they've built so far. All right. So who's your number three, Chris? My number three is Chicago because they are so far away. And so I think they'll need probably the amount of this, this 10-year span to get there. But again, it comes back to many of the similar things that I said about Macklin Celebrity. You have Connor

Bidard, you have the centerpiece, now you build around that. I think Artem Leveshanov is going to be a talented player for them. Kevin Kortinski, I love that they sent him back to the HL. It didn't matter that he played the whole year in the NHL last year. Get him back on track, allow him to gain confidence. He has gotten better as the year has progressed here. He didn't have a great start, but he has gotten better as the year has progressed. I think they have a lot of nice secondary pieces, guys that are going to be kind of those teams. And we know that they're going to be especially aggressive here in the coming years with the higher cap on the free agent market. They just need the right guys to become available.

And you know they're going big game hunting. And I think with Badaard in the mix, it makes them a little bit more attractive for that. Could Spencer Knight be the goalie of the future there? I think there's obviously been a lot of up and down in his career. He's been through a few things. Now he's got a chance to be a true number one in the NHL. That still remains to be seen. But I think that this is an organization that is really going to,

to be completely turned over here in the next couple of years where there's more and more players that are gone. I mean, it feels almost unrecognizable from the previous era where they were winning Stanley Cups. But I do think that having Baderd, having some of those next secondary pieces, and then having another high pick again, you know, you're still adding more core pieces to the puzzle. They have to find veterans that can better insulate those young guys in the short term, but I think in the long term, those guys, once they hit their prime, they're going to be really good players in the NHL. Scott, who's your number three?

I went to Montreal for my number three. It sort of felt like San Jose and New Jersey at the top, and then I was flip-flopping on Montreal and Columbus and even Ottawa to a lesser extent and Anaheim and looking at those sort of next teams that are in there. Obviously, Ottawa doesn't fit into that group, but those next teams that are in a true, true rebuild phase. And it just felt to me, A, I think Montreal is in a comparable spot to where Anaheim and Columbus and certainly ahead of where Chicago is in terms of their rebuild

and their current NHL roster. They've been excellent in the second half this season. They've shown that they can hang with some good teams with the roster that they currently have assembled. But B, I sort of looked at, okay, who can elevate the ceiling in Anaheim? Who can elevate the ceiling in Columbus that isn't already there? And in Montreal, I kept coming back to two names in particular. And I like Logan Mayu and some of the other players that they have coming, but really the two names that I think are going to make or break where they land as an organization are Ivan Demadov and Jacob Fowler. If Jacob Fowler can be a stud number one starting NHL goalie who can play at a very, very high level for them, and Demadov can give them what Corey talked about a little off the top,

if he can give them another Nick Suzuki or potentially even become the number one option on that team, then suddenly you've got a really, really, really exciting thing going in Montreal. I think Wayne Hudson will continue to get better at both ends of the rink. As great as he's been offensively this year, I think he's going to continue to be one of the top offensive defensemen in the NHL. I like Suzuki. I like Cawfield. I like the sort of trending game in some areas of your ice Slavkovsky.

I still think he has a lot of work to do. But it's really for them, it's going to come down to Demadov, I think, and it's going to come down to Fowler. And I just feel like those guys can elevate that group more than a Beckett-Seneke, can elevate Anaheim or Identified. and Mateuch can elevate Columbus. Okay, so just to refresh everybody's top three, Corey had Columbus, New Jersey, Ottawa,

Scott had San Jose, New Jersey, Montreal. Chris had San Jose, Utah, Chicago. I had San Jose, Ottawa, New Jersey. We had a lot of this potential pool here. Nobody put Anaheim in there. And for a team that has had one of the more, like, you know, positively discussed prospect pools in recent years, I thought that was pretty interesting.

Corey, let's start with you. Why not Anaheim? I feel like it's the same issues that you get to with Buffalo. And is that you can only be excited about this team for so long before you start asking questions about why is there no steps being taken here. And I kind of think that's the direction we're going with Anaheim is you're kind of waiting on Zegra's to take the step. Mason Metavitch has been good. You're kind of waiting for when's he going to take that big step. Leo Carlson's been better, really good since the Four Nations,

but he kind of was fighting it a little bit in the first half of the year. Pavl Mitchikov takes a step back after his great rookie year. You know, it's a team that still has a lot of promise and still a lot of really good young pieces in this team. But, you know, just kind of like saying, sitting with Buffalo, every summer we talk about how much young talent this organization has and how much you're waiting for taking the next step, and then it never happens. Hence what I said at the beginning of the segment,

when it comes to teams like Chicago and San Jose is it's so hard to build not just a good team, a contending team in the NHL. You don't need one good player. You need 15 good players to win a Stanley Cup. And I just feel like you're wondering whether some of these high, high end guys we've been talking about, are they quite as high end as you would have hoped for three, four, five years ago? To Corey's point, I worry that their young guys are getting better. Like who are the positive stories there?

I think Cutter Gote's had a respectable rookie year. Jackson Lecombe is probably the positive story there in terms of young pieces that have really taken steps there over the last couple of years. Trevor's egress isn't getting better. Pavlman T.ukov's been a healthy scratch. Olin Zellweger hasn't been able to really establish himself in the organization. And Leo, it's just, it's early still for Leo for sure. But who knows where Leo is at relative to the step that Adam Fantilli has taken and the steps that Matthew Meechkov has. has taken, right? So I just, I think you start to worry that their players outside of Lecombe,

that their players just aren't, aren't improving at the rate that they need to be improving. Where are you guys out on Mason McTavish? Because I feel like for the hype around him, the buzz around him seems to have really flattened, but I still look at it and see a 22-year-old center, some two-way games, some heaviness, who should top 50 points this year. I feel like as a number two center, you're pretty happy with that. And the narrative is just because Leo has it really established himself as a number one yet that it's kind of dragging the buzzer on McAvish a little bit. It's such a young team too.

When I watch that team, it's just so much youth all around that lineup that it's, I feel like they have all those guys in big roles and like Mason's been very good. He's a very nice young player. It's, like I said, I almost wonder if it's, you know, should they have gone out of me, maybe try and put more money into veterans to surround this, surround this. this group because it's just I don't think I look at this team and say anyone's been bad. But like even thinking, even though despite Leo may not, you know, putting up huge numbers here, I still think you look at him as consider his age, consider his talent.

And he's an extremely exciting young player. I think he still has star potential in this league. But just kind of saying what Scott said is it's just like, where is the significant positive developments? where is the positive momentum from this team? And it kind of feels like you keep waiting for it and it never comes. Yeah. And I also, I'm curious in just in terms of the overall construction,

we've seen that the high end forwards that continue to come in. And to the Mason McTavish point, I still am a believer. I think that he is a guy that is going to make an impact. The question is, is he going to be, make a big enough offensive impact to truly be that number two center long term? You know, or is this kind of where he's topping out at? where I see issues in this. We were pretty big believers in Pavelman Tukov.

It hasn't necessarily been a good season for him. Same with Olens-Ellweger. Does this team have a cornerstone defenseman on their roster right now? Do they have one in their system? I would argue that they don't have that number one guy. They had it in Cam Fowler for a period of time. And then obviously, you know, they traded a lot of their veterans away this most recent deadline. you know, guys like Dumlin Fowler or others, you know, that they were able to trade away.

So, you know, my question is, is where does, you know, in terms of roster construction, where do you fill those holes? Can you do it through free agency? Are you going to be a team that's going to spend to the cap? Are you going to be a team that does what's necessary to make that? So for me, yeah, it's such a, it's such a tricky thing to try to get a handle on it. Because I, like everyone else, there's a lot of belief in a lot of these prospects that they have, guys that I think are going to be there.

But yeah, when you look at guys like, are any of these players that irreplaceable piece, and they do not have that, they do not have that. And for as fun as Trevor's egress was, for the period of time where he was one of the biggest stars in the league, you know, from an all young hockey player still love that guy.

We still haven't seen him take that step. And there was, there's always been talk about, you know, should they trade him, you know, they're in a sell low proposition still. You know, so we'll see if he's a duck come the NHL draft. But, you know, those are the things that I think will be interesting. So it hasn't quite gone the way that I think everybody expected it to. But when you don't have that, that the D.L. Like, I'm a big believer in that forward group, but I'm not as sold on what they have

defensively going forward. Only other two teams we didn't mention were Calgary and Seattle. So what would either of those two teams have to do to get into this kind of serious conversation? We didn't even talk them up as an option. Like at least Anaheim got mentioned as consideration by a couple people. It kind of feels like Calgary season is a little bit of an apparation too right now. Right. Like it kind of feels hard to see them continue to be consistent playoff contenders going into next season and the year after.

And you look at the prospect pool. It's just, you know, Zane Perrick. And I just think they're at the beginning here. I think there's a lot of work ahead for Calgary right now. I think the answer for Seattle would probably be as simple as them getting very lucky and winning the lottery and drafting Matthew Schaefer. Because then you got Benares right, Katten, Schaefer. That's pretty exciting.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of people expected them to take a D last year and they drafted Berkeley Katten who's had a phenomenal year in the WHL and is a phenomenal young player. But you wonder who the D man is there for the same reason you do. in Anaheim. Vince Dunn is a great player. Vince Dunn is not a number one guy. They've committed a lot of high draft capital to forwards now. I mean, Riker Evans is a good young defender, but there isn't that next guy on the blue line.

So it feels like they're the kind of team that badly needs Schaefer. And you look at this draft right now. If they don't get Schaefer, the next group is almost predominantly centers between James Hagan's, Michael Misa, Caleb Dinoje, Anton Frundel. it might just be the situation where the best player available to them seems the likely a scenario actually is the best player available to them on their board is going to be a center. And as much as we all love Katten, they back themselves into that corner by taking Katten a year ago, knowing what this draft might look like.

Absolutely. Yeah. And that was a, I remember that. It was pretty stunning considering the defensemen that were available on the board last year at that time. And to me, it just, Seattle has never. looked more than a middle team. Like, and, and they have not got, they're, they are in a dangerous place as a new

franchise because they don't have the star power and they're not getting it via the draft. Like, you know, Katten and Wright and Baneers, you're hopeful, but are they going to be difference makers? I think this is, this, this team is like looking like what the Minnesota Wild were for a long, long, was probably still are, you know, a long, long, long time. Who went after Baneers and Wright that you think they made a massive mistake by not taking? Oh, I wouldn't say that. I was talking more about Catton.

I love Catton too. But yeah, I wouldn't say that. There's guys that went after Baneers and I think you could make a case for going ahead. I mean, Gunther, I think. Yeah, for sure. For sure. For a more offensive player. Luke.

Yeah. Luke. But I mean, hey, Maddie Baneers was pretty good as a rook. Like, he's a pretty good player. Calder. Like, won the Calder. Yeah, like pretty good player. Like it hasn't worked out there somehow.

You know, and it's getting a little bit more concerning as we go along here. It could be that they have three number two centers. And I have no idea if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I mean, obviously you want a number one, but I think there's something to be said for that depth. You may just end up flexing one of those guys to the wings so you can play them all in the top six. It's probably the way to handle it.

But that's kind of how it's shaking out right now. Max, it just feels like they're always going to be a team that's like good enough to be maybe just on the fringe of the playoffs and not bad enough to be a team that gets a number one pick again. So it's it's a weird spot to be in for them. All right. Let's take a break right there. We're going to come back and talk about the NCAA tournament. All right, we're back.

And I want to talk gentlemen about the 2025 NCAA men's hockey tournament. Denver, I think, is a big storyline here. They've had so much success. You're always wondering, can they do it again? And certainly with David Carl, if they do it again. The noise is only going to get louder, which I'm sure he will despise. But Boston College comes in as the number one seat here, Chris. What do you expect out of this BC team in the tournament?

Well, I mean, I think that they've got one big advantage. And that's, you know, Jacob Fowler. We've talked about him on the show today, a fair amount. And, you know, he is one of the top goaltenders in the country with a 940 save percentage. He's played some of his best hockey down the stretch here. They did lose to Northeastern in the quarter final of the Hockey East playoffs, which was stunning. but at the same time, I think that having the goaltending helps,

but they also have a Hobie Baker frontrunner in Ryan Leonard, who's the nation's top goal score. He can be a real difference maker. He can take over games. They'll play Bentley in the first round. You know, by being the number one overall seed, they kind of have a somewhat favorable bracket,

even though it's not, you know, easy. I don't think they're going to roll over everybody. I don't think that they're a team that's unbeatable. We've seen them lose to plenty of teams this year. there isn't that runaway freight train number one team that we've seen in years past. But to me, Boston College, like, you know, Ryan Leonard had the chance to go pro last year. Big reason he didn't.

He wanted to go, you know, had a chance to captain team USA at the World Juniors, but he really wanted to come back for the NCAA championship. And they fell short last year. I think that helps. Having Gabe Perot, James Higgins, you know, there's a good mix there. The question is, is, you know, they're not as deep as they were last year. They're not as much of a veteran team as they were last year. And so even though they were led by freshmen,

they had a good second tier of guys. You know, defensively, they're going to have to, some guys are going to have to play some big minutes for them, Drew Fortiskew being one of them. You know, I think that this is, you know, a team that feels like, hey, they lost in the hockey east, they lost the bean pot. You know, this is their chance to prove that they can come through in the big games.

I think some of the big programs that we typically know and love for how studded they are with top prospects. I think that in and of itself is a storyline that they all feel vulnerable. Denver lost in the NCHC championship. BU lost to a UCon team that's going to its first ever tournament. BC obviously lost in the first round. All of those teams have something to prove. I think top players on all of those teams, something to have proof. James Higgins certainly has something to prove.

if we're talking strictly about Boston College off the top. But you look down the list, Minnesota, BU, some of the giants of college hockey, there are players on each of those teams. Oliver Moore, Matthew Wood, you go down the list, there are players on those teams that have a lot to prove here in some of what could be potentially some of their final games of college hockey. So that in and of itself,

plus some of the newcomers and some of the programs that have built some really strong depth, like atypical programs that we're not used to maybe seeing in this setting that have have a real chance to challenge teams that are loaded with NHL talent. It's a pretty unique mix this year. It feels like it feels like it's wide open in a way that it hasn't in the last two or three tournaments here. One of the teams that's not kind of one of those every year discussions, but maybe is going to start to be as Michigan State under Adam Nightingale, they've been excellent. They obviously have Tree Augustine, one of the top goalies in the country. And Isaac Howard has really resurrected a career for himself that, you know,

of freshman season at Minnesota Duluth. Now he is one of the leading scorers in the nation. Yeah, he is, and he also scored the game winning goal in the Big Ten championship game. So he's coming through clutch again. He scored a goal in the gold medal game of the world juniors last year. You know, this is a guy that has traditionally been a top performing player. He had, it was just not a fit at Minnesota Duluth. It didn't work out.

He ends up reuniting with Adam Nightingale, and everything kind of comes together. We've seen a similar resurgence, not, you know, not to the productive degree of of Howard, but Charlie Stramel assisted on that game-winning goal in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, big 10 championship game as well. And he's had a much better season. So I think, you know, Adam Nightingale is one of the best coaches in the country. I think he's really there, a big part of it. But Augustine is going to be the X factor. He's one of the best big game goalies there is. He's won two gold medals at the world juniors. He's won a gold medal at the under 18s. And now he has an opportunity, you know,

won, won the big 10 championship. He's got an opportunity here to take this team to new heights. Now, the last time the Michigan State won the national championship, they did it in St. Louis, and they're going back to St. Louis now. So if there's a little bit of poetic finish, that will be part of it. And back then, the goalie was Jeff Lurg, who was about 5'8-8, and on a good day, maybe on in some lifts. And he won them a national title. Now they have one of the best goalie prospects in hockey to help them try to win it this time around. The bracket is set up such that we could get Augustine Fowler for the national title, which would be get your popcorn ready, Scott.

And to your point of the bracket, I think that Toledo Regional is Michigan States for the taking. That feels to me like the weakest of the four regionals. I think they'll be a heavy favorite against any of those three teams, whether it's Cornell, B.U, Ohio State. I think BU's got big problems this year in terms of flaws within that team. But to add to Chris's point, Isaac's the guy up front, Tray's the guy in Nett. But I think what really distinguishes this Michigan State team is, A, their depth, they're one of the only teams in this 16 team tournament that can roll four forward lines. They've got guys like Shane Van Sagi and Tommy Mnistu who bring very unique attributes.

Van Sagi can bully guys. Ministo might be the fastest player in college hockey. They've got five, maybe even six defensemen who are legit, college hockey defensemen. And on top of that, they play to an identity. And I think we've lost a little bit of that in college hockey in recent years as the recruiting race has ramped up and everybody's after the top, top talents. What Adam has really done here is build a team of 12 forwards who work their tails off and six rugged defensemen who play hard. And I think that has helped Trey Augustine, frankly, in the last two years. And then behind them, you've still got Trey

if you need to fall back on him. So I just think from top to bottom, from an identity, from a depth standpoint, if I were picking a team to win the tournament this year, I think I'd probably lean Michigan State, especially if Isaac can be that guy for them offensively. Because they do give back a little bit of that. Like they don't have after Isaac, the true, true pop that Minnesota has with Snuggarood

and some of their guys, and B.C. obviously, has with their top line. Yeah, Howard actually has 22 more points than the next closest teammate on the roster. And that's Carson Dorwart, who's one of the top college free agents this year. So, yeah, I mean, that's the thing is they, they, if they're going to win, they're going to probably have to do it the hard way, just as they did in the Big Ten championship game. We're the big disruptors guys in this year's tournament.

I mean, it seems like every year we see at least one, four, but a real scare, if not outright upset at number one. I mean, I'm looking at Minnesota State and how frustrating they can be to play against. Are they the answer? Who's your upset, your Cinderella? I actually think they're not necessarily. an upset threat. There are the top seed in their region. But the winner of that Western Michigan, Michigan state game, I think, has a chance

to go deep. Western Michigan has done a really, really nice job building out that program over the last two, three, four seasons to remain relevant in a state that we know is jammed with legit college hockey programs. So I got to tip my hat to what Western Michigan has built. They've basically played in a tandem all year with Hampton, Likinsky and Cameron Row. They've got two excellent goalies.

Una Weissan came directly out of the USHL and has played big minutes on their blue line. Then they've got guys like Knoble and Bump and others that like they just play like a legit team. And I think that Western Michigan, Minnesota state game is a really, really good early game. Yeah, it is. And I think that's a great, you know, like Western Michigan, even as a top seed, even as the, they're only the second team ever to win the NCHC regular season and post. season titles in the same year.

They're riding Slikinsky now. Alex Bump has probably been one of the best players not in the Hobie top 10 this season, Philadelphia prospect. In terms of disruptors, it's funny. Denver's a three seed in this tournament, so they're, but they're not a disrupter. They will disrupt something, but probably, but that's not, that's not it. You know, I think if I'm looking for a team down the list,

a team that gives me a little bit of concern in terms of what the way that they play and what they're doing this season. Certainly Minnesota State is that dark horse down the lineup. They play a very aggressive defensive style. They look similar to the teams that we saw Mike Hastings build there, now under Luke Strand. They have the only goalie to be Alex Tracy, Chicago kid, got to get a Chicago mention in there.

He is the top goalie in terms of save percentage this year. They have not had, you know, know, that super challenging schedule because they play in the CCHA, but that is a bit of a meat grinder of a conference. It's kind of deceptive in that way. They don't have as much talent, but the games are hard. Minnesota State is one of those teams that if you're not careful with them, they will find a way to sneak up on you.

So if we're looking for disruptors, it's them, but I like Scott's pick. Nobody's talking about, you know, Western Michigan as really being a threat here. They very much are. That's another team with a D-Corps that I think is vastly underrated. You know, they have Univison who's a freshman right now, drafted by Pittsburgh, incredible freshman season, really under the radar, maybe not huge points, but watching him in the HCHC tournament, this guy looks like he's been playing college hockey for seven years, and he's in his first year.

It's incredible to watch. Incredibly smart player, too. Yes. my pick probably wouldn't be like again a name that you think of as a disruptor or an underdog but i'm going to go with b you and i'm going to go i think they've got a real chance to win the group there in toledo um and i think i think it's not an unreasonable thing to say that since mikhail yegorov has gotten to be you leaving omaha in the middle of the year for me he's been the best goalie in college hockey like he's been incredible in the games i've watched

there for be you and you know i got up to a rough start there got to take a i think he took a penalty before he even got on the ice in his first college game there against bc but ever since then he's been great and you know he's six five six six six he moves really well um i think new jersey fans have to be really excited by how he's played there if you've got a you got a you got an X-Factor with him. Cole Hudson's been just fantastic this year for B-U. So as you know, I see all this team scores a lot. They've got a real goalie.

I see a path for them to get to the Frozen Four. All right. Let's go around the horn then to wrap this up. Give me your championship game prediction and winner. You want to do Frozen 4 more power to you. Scott? I'm going to stick with MSU. I'm going to push back against Corey's BU pick in Toledo there in the group.

I'm going to stick with MSU. their opponent. Oh man. I'll go Denver to come out of that group with BC and a Denver, Michigan State final. And who wins? Yeah, who wins the, who wins the championship?

MSU. Oh, MSU. We're sticking with MSU. Yeah, you said that initially. Yeah. So, all right, so I've got, I've got, you know, for my Frozen Four, Western, BC, Penn State in an upset, even though I really, really, really like Maine. And I think that that's a really scary pick that I just did. Michigan State, I couldn't go full chalk for this thing. But you got Michigan State beating Penn State to go to the championship game.

You've got Boston College beating Western Michigan. You got Boston College winning the national championship as Jacob Fowler gets the last laugh after losing the starting gig at the World Junior. years two years ago. Corey? Yeah, I would say Frozen 4 would be Penn State, Boston, University, Western, and Denver. And I am going to say there will be a dynasty, and Denver will take the title over BU in the final. I will take Boston College over Michigan State,

Minnesota State, and Maine to round out the Frozen 4. Minnesota State, they don't get scored on. So that's a good recipe at this time of year. That's going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of the athletic hockey show prospect series. You can catch more of Chris, of course, at Flow Hockey and on his podcast called up. Back to the regularly scheduled programming of the athletic hockey show tomorrow. Talk to you soon.