The Athletic Hockey Show - Which Pacific Division teams are we buying and selling on?

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

Hailey and Sean dig into the Pacific Division teams, what additions and subtractions were made in the offseason, and who will improve and decline as the battle for the Pacific begins October 7.Hosts: Hailey Salvian and Sean GentilleExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the athletic hockey show. It's Haley Salvean and Sean Gentilly here with you back for another edition of buying and selling NHL off seasons. If you didn't listen the last couple times around, Sean and I are going to be deciding whether or not we are buying stock in a team based on their off season moves or selling it off. essentially looking at which teams improve the most or declined this summer. Sean, we've already made our choices in the Eastern Conference, first with the Atlantic Division, then the Metro. If you guys want to hear those episodes, you can find them on the Athletic Hockey Show podcast feed,

Apple, Google, Spotify, wherever you like to listen to your podcasts. But now, Sean, it's time to get into the Western Conference. How are we feeling today? You know, it's been such a short time since we've recorded one of these, really only been a couple days, I suppose. And yet it feels like so much longer. We've been pre-recording these throughout the summer. Keep up the ruse.

People that we know how the sausage gets made. We were, it's, luckily, the NHL off season has been so boring that nothing changed. Literally nothing has changed. Yeah, we thought maybe, should we record this too early? maybe some blockbuster is going to happen. Nothing happened. We were banking on inertia and inertia one.

Yeah. But we're back and it's time to get into the Western Conference. And I think a good place to start is the Pacific Division. Three of the top five teams on Dom's offseason improvement rankings all came out of the Pacific. Four of the top six if we get out of the top five. Are they that high because so many teams in the Pacific were. bad last season and there's nowhere to go but up, maybe. We'll find out as we go.

And there is a significant drop off after we get out of the top improvement team. So the Pacific is a bit of a mixed bag, which makes it kind of interesting. Will there be, there's improvement on paper at the bottom of the division. Will any of that actually matter once the game start? That's what makes the Pacific kind of compelling Sean. And the number one team in the Pacific in terms of improvement is also the number one team in terms of improvement

league-wide, and that's the San Jose Sharks. They have a plus 26 net rating added, number one overall. They add three new defenders, three new forwards, a new goalie. Save for Dimitri Orlov, most of the players in are just fine, but they still look like upgrades over what has been replaced. So if we look at kind of the highlights, they add Jeff Skinner, Adam Goddette,

Demetri Orlov, John Klingberg, Nick Letty, Alex Nadalcovich, Philip Kirushchev, and they lose Mark Edward Vlasic, Henry Thrun, Alexander Georgiev. So will they likely be bad again, probably? More competitive? Maybe. What do you think about the sharks? I think for this activity, they're one of the most interesting teams in the league, because they're absolutely going to be better.

They're still going to be horrendous. but the needle is definitely pointing in the right direction. And I think that starts with Macklin Celebrini, obviously, who shameless plug for player tears, but we have him. I was going to do that. You never look at the lineup. I'm just,

this is off the dome. What are you going to do? But Celebrity is, you know, he's one of the risers, obviously. And I think his rookie season went about as well as, as well as it could have. People around the league love him. I think that that is one of the takeaways from one of the big takeaways from player tiers is that people think there's a gap between even him

and Connor Bedard, you know, like he's, he, he is that good. So the fact that they have that not just a player who projects to be one of the best in the NHL a little bit down the line, but a guy who could very easily be like a fairly high-end all-star this season, and that's kind of where we have him pegged. I think that makes him, I think that makes him interesting, but man, the stuff around him is still,

it's still such a mess. The fact that they're better is important. And I think that plays a part in you and I deciding how we're going to label them here. But that's still a team that, strictly by Dom's projections team-wide, they're still projected to finish with fewer points than anybody else in the league.

So that makes it tough. Like, we love the prospect pool. We love the guys that are already at the top. the lineup. You know, he certainly believe in the capability of guys like Will Smith to take another leap. But man, that's, that's still a really bad potential, you know, 70 point team that we're looking at here if you go strictly by the, by the projections. Yeah. It's, um, if I was actually good at finance stuff, this is where I would come in with some very insightful. Like, this is the moment where you actually do buy you get in at the ground floor. Well, the rates are low or

whatever. But I don't know about any of that. Do you so but strictly speaking in in hockey terms here is Macklin-Cellebrini enough for you to buy stock in the San Jose sharks right now or are you still going to wait until you can see a bit more from the team as a whole? I don't think he's necessarily enough by himself. But when you look at guys that are in route, guys, guys like like Sam Dickinson, who's a potential high-end defensive piece that they have. Guys like Will Smith, who really came on strong last season. You know,

Eklund has more to give. Guys like Michael Mesa that they drafted in the first round, that group of, even if some of them don't hit, is what makes me ultimately decide to

buy the San Jose Sharks, because I think they have the tough part figured out. And that's, and that's making sure that you have a franchise caliber player both in name and in practice, that is Macklin Celebrini, and then have a group of young, a group of players behind him that are all trending upwards and in the right direction. And that's where we talk about Smith and Dickinson and Eklund. And then that next wave, which is led by Michael Mesa.

I mean, this is like one of the top prospect pulls in the sport. And it's, and that's the case, not just because of, of Macklin Celebrity. Brini's. So I think they're still going to be bad. I think they're going to be measurably better than they were last year. And I like the way things are lined up for them moving forward. So if that's not a buy ultimately, like I don't really, I'm not sure I know what is. Even though I, even though I still think they're going to stink. That comes with a big asterisk. You know, there's a, there's plenty of lot to like outside of the overall point projections. It's a purchase on, it's a purchase on on future. And I think, yeah, everything that you said is is great in terms of the other pieces,

but ultimately for me, I do a soft buy on the future. I would just do it based on Celebrini himself. I think he looks like the perfect franchise cornerstone. And there's just something about Celebrini to me that it's, there's just a likability factor there. There is an element to him that, and I read this in your player tiers from a coach,

and I feel like, I don't know if I said this on the pod or you and I just had this discussion in the past. Celebrini's showing up to world championships and Bedard not. That was one of the moments to me where I was like, this guy just wants to play hockey and get better and become the dude. He's taking these opportunities to go and play. He's working on faceoffs with Sidney Crosby. And like you see those things from Macklin Celebrini.

And then I saw in your player tears, Coach said, Celebrini is someone who just wants to be the guy. He's willing to compete in everything. And you do see that. So there's just something about Celebrini, whether it's the goofy antics with Will Smith and Tyler to Foley last year or seeing him putting in that extra work

where some other guys who are in his ilk did not. Like something about Conor Bardard, not going to World Championships just really bothered me. And when I look at these... Not just... Not just too either. I know. And this will go back to player tiers in a second here.

The difference... I don't think I bought or we haven't done... Have we done the... No, we haven't done the Blackhawks yet. I don't know if I'm buying the Blackhawks just because of Conor-Burdard. And I will watch a San Jose Sharks game because Celebrarini's on it. I'm not really watching the Blackhawks and Connor Bradard's on that team. And that's a bad thing.

and I know that there's executives who told you the same thing on player tiers. So I'm a soft by on the sharks because I like the Celebrini experience. The coach who gave me that quote who said that about Celebrini is a guy whose opinion. I trust everybody's opinion of the 20 or 25 people who we talk to for this. He's a guy who specifically has been proven correct by some of his evaluations over the last couple years. years. And yeah, just one more, one more word on Celebrini, too. Like, we love the numbers, right? We love the goal scoring numbers. We love the offensive production. That's all, that's all well and good. One of the things that separates itself, that he uses to separate himself from, from, uh, Baderd quantitatively is the under the hood stuff. Like that those weren't just, that wasn't shooting percentageated. That wasn't, okay, he's, he's good at scoring goals. What else can he do? There's substance. already from him as an as an as an 18 year old player so man I I I love the way things are going for him I love the skill I love the compete he's he's got a good frame on him man like all this all this stuff

like there's no player in the league and I know this is this is not this shouldn't be any kind of hot take but there's nobody who I'm more sold on being a superstar for the next however many years than than celebrating he checks every box and I and I think by himself like you said Haley I think that's enough to make them a soft buy. Yeah. And there's more than just Salabrini there to be interested in the San Jose Sharks moving forward. We're

sticking in California, but we're going over to Anaheim now. They're number two, plus 15 net rating added third overall in the league. They add Chris Kreider, Mikhail Granland, Ryan Poling, Peter Marazek. They add Joel Quenville

behind the bench as well. Let's not forget about that. They move out, Trevor Ziegress, John Gibson. Those are kind of the high points for the Anaheim Ducks. A really interesting team to watch this season. Joel Quenville should bring internal improvement for young players like Mason McTavish and Leo Carlson. They add two top six forwards in Crider and Grandland.

They make some interesting trades in regards to Zegris and John Gibson. That's a compelling team to be looking at right now. Absolutely. And a lot of it starts with Joel. Quenville, according to a lot of sources around the league, a lot of people who I've talked about, you know, through the play, like, yes, through the lens of player tiers, but also elsewhere, say what you will about Joel Quenville, whether it deserves to be behind an NHL bench or not. He's a good hockey coach, and people believe that he's going to bring a lot to the mix there.

And that was the first thing that people said when you ask about Mason McTavish, and when you ask about Leo Carlson, And when you ask about Jackson Lacombe, who was a breakout player last year, like we've said for so long about Anaheim, like one of those guys defensively needs to pop. Yeah. Is it is it Mitchikov? Is it Zellweger? Like, who is the guy that, you know, back when Jamie Drysdale was on that, was on that roster? Like, who is going to be the dude that steps up from that group of defensive prospects? And I think we have a pretty, you can make a pretty compelling case that it's Jackson LaCone.

and that he's already done it. So he snuck on to player tears. He was argued on by sources and people and people who we trust. So I think the fact that, you know, you have reasons for optimism around the group of young players because of the coaching situation. That I hate to, I hate to buy on another team that was not very good last year, but I'm a buy on them too. because I like the talent, you know, among the skaters. And I don't know if this is just conversations with Jesse Granger, like, leaking into my brain.

Lucas Dostal is a potential star. People around the league like them a lot. Jesse loves him. And I think that's, I think that's a big reason to believe in them leveling up, too. They might have the goaltending thing figured out. So goal-tending, coaching, a fact that you have an already pretty good group of young players that seems to have found some kind of stride at the end of last year. I think the needle's pointing in the right direction for them. Yeah.

Yeah, if Joel Quenville can turn Leo Carlson into a legitimate number one center, which people project him to become, that's going to be a really interesting hockey club. I would buy on the Anaheim ducks right now, too. They're just, and whatever, we didn't barely even talked about Crider and Granlin. Like those are two veteran players who are legitimate top six forwards who are going to help the young kids come along. And all of a sudden that forward group just looks a little bit better. Ryan polling to a better defensive forward. He's obviously not the young fun. Trevor Zegris,

but he brings something different that that team needed. And Zegra's probably needed a fresh start as we discussed in our, when we were talking about the Philadelphia Flyers. So ducks are interesting. Okay. So this is probably the biggest team in the Pacific to discuss. right now, maybe even one of the biggest ones in the league to discuss as we look ahead to the 2025-26 season, and that's the Vegas Golden Knights.

Plus 9 net rating, that's number 5 overall. So they're not the, they didn't improve on paper the same way that the sharks or the ducks did. But no team added a better player this summer than the Vegas Golden Knights. Mitch Marner now joins a forward group that already has Jack Eichol, Mark Stone, and William Carlson. and it's just a luxury of riches in Vegas. They add Colton Sizzins as well, Jeremy Lauson. Out is Nicholas Roy.

I always want to say, wah, so I always catch my, that's why I say Roy, really strangely. Nicholas Roy, Victor Oliveson, Nicholas Hague, Ilya Sampsonov, and of course, Alex Petrangelo, who we can discuss in a moment. But let's start with Mitch Marner. Would it surprise anybody if Mitch Marner,

throws up 105 points this year and all is well and you know he he takes to Vegas pretty swimmingly no I think I think that's where I'd where I'd put in my money and say what you will about it like whether it's right or wrong I think I think given all the stuff we've heard from him and about him I think I think this is the right spot for Mitch as a as a as a player physically and mentally yeah Do you think Mitch Marner can win a Stanley Cup before the Toronto Maple Leafs? Yes, absolutely. And that's because of the team that's in place around him.

I think we lost how good Jack Eichael was a little bit last season. We were talking about how he was a Hart Trophy candidate on this podcast. I didn't lose it. it i it i just feel like things that the larger discourse around him kind of trailed off a bit as as as uh as the season ended you know not to keep bringing everything back to player tiers but with jack ikel it kind of has to like we had a there were there were people not enough to quite put him in that in that tier one uh you know in that group but a lot a lot of people thought that he should have been there and the big point that everybody wanted to make is that he needed to be

ahead of everyone else. So we did some shuffling and we put him ahead of, you know, we put him in a group with basically Sydney Crosby and Jack Hughes. And he's, he's in a group, he's in a group of three and he ain't third. Like he, he had the season last year, you know, that I think a lot of people expected from him. He had 94 points. He was, he was, uh, 3.57 per 60 in all situations, which is the exact kind of production that he always felt like a little bit short of for one reason or another. And he brought that to the mix last season. So, man, if that's what we can expect from Eichl moving forward, the rest of their forward group makes such perfect sense because now you can be okay with Tamash Hurtle being a true number two.

You don't need him to be, you know, a 1A running mate with Jack Eichael. Like Eichl is the alpha dot. And I think stuff can devolve, stuff can fall into place based on that, whether we're talking about, whether we're talking about Mitch or whether we're talking about, you know, Mark Stone as he continues to age and in all that. I think the fact that they have a no doubt, you know, on the up, still on the upswing player and Jack Eichael at the top of it, man, that makes stuff a whole lot easier. And now he has no doubt number one right winger beside him, right? Like if we're thinking of duos or different lines, we can think Eichle and Mitch Marner on the first line, hurdle, Stone, Barbachev. You got a William Carlson, Riley Smith combo on the third line. Like that's a good forward group.

And Mitch Marner is, you know, Jack Eichl is going to be the one seat, but Mitch Marner is what he was in to be right below him. So the Vegas Golden Knights have six players on player tiers. And maybe they would have had seven. I don't know how you guys feel about Petrangelo, but look, his playing days are likely over a huge hole on the blue line with with the announcement that he's not going to be playing this season. They still have talent on the blue line and Shay Theodore, Noah Hanifan.

I feel like this could maybe be a big season for Noah Hanofin specifically. Like there's a really big opportunity for him to step up in Vegas. but yeah, the Petrangelo hole is a tricky one. That makes things a little bit, again, more interesting for Vegas because, yeah, it's a great forward group, but a huge subtraction on the blue line. Hanifin's going to have a lot more on his plate. And Chey Theodore needs to stay healthy.

That's like I think those are the main questions defensively for them. Like it's not not everything's perfect. You know, you love the Martin Edition. You love the idea of him playing with Eichael. Eichael is still just one of the absolute most lethal rush players in the game, you know, based on tracking data and all that. It's going to be, it's going to be fun and it's going to be interesting. I'm, you know, there's reasons, there's reasons for concern. I think the defensive group is, you know, they, they're going to have to figure some stuff out there, as you said, Haley.

But I think I'm, I think I'm a soft buy on Vegas. Oh, I'm, yeah, I would buy on Vegas. I think Mitch Martin, like, they added the best player on the market. If you're not buying on that, I'm not sure. This is just aater. This is just, you can't buy on the ducts and the barns. No, no, no, no. You can't buy on the sharks and the ducks and then be like,

but I don't know if I'm going to buy on Vegas. They added the best player in the off season. I'm just upset because I picked them to win the cup at the start of the playoffs last year, and they let me down. That's all that. Yuck. Why'd you do that again? You know, it would have been boring to pick the Panthers, I think, is kind of scary where I landed.

Oh, well, yeah, I picked Tampa to beat. I had the Panthers losing in the first round. I had Tampa winning the Cup last year, which is, oops. Oopsie. How did that go? Not well. Not great. Yeah.

So, you know what? This is why I wanted to start with the Pacific because there was three interesting teams right off the top. We both bought on all three of the sharks, the ducks and the Vegas Golden Knights, three of the top five most improved teams in the NHL this season. But things get a little bit bleak. Coming up after the break, we're going to be right back on the athletic hockey show. All right, welcome back to the athletic hockey show, continuing to buy or sell our stock on teams in the Pacific Division based on their off seasons. So far, so good. We've got three buys. It's a busy day on the trading floor.

I don't feel great about that, but whatever. You just get soft? I think that's why I was like, yeah, I guess Vegas is okay. I feel like I was going soft. It feels like you're just a hater. But it's fine. There's going to be so many opportunities to sell our stock coming up very soon. The number 14 to talk about here is the Seattle Cracken, the plus nine net rating, six overall.

So as we look at the best. Pacific division. It was four of the top six players, for the top six teams in the NHL are coming out to the Pacific. The Cracken, they add Mason Marchment, Frederick Adrow, Ryan Lindgren, out, Andre Burakowski, and Michael E. Simont. Dumping Burakowski, then trading for Marchman is the highlight of the offseason for the crack. And I think that's where most of that positive net rating comes from. Obviously, an upgrade at forward for the team. Marchman's a legitimate top six guy. He costs one million dollars less than Burakowski. But I don't know if that's enough to really buy on a Seattle

Cracken or believe that this team is going to take positive steps forward. The kind of question is, is Mason Marchments upgrade plus another new coach enough to buy one of the league's worst teams? No. There's no easier. I don't know if there's an easier sell in the entire. league than this one. There's just not enough top end talent there.

No team was closer to not having something to going over the player tiers than the Seattle Cracking. Like Vince Dunn made it by the skin of his teeth and we had been 5C and a lot of people were like, Vince Dunn was really good two years ago. Like he deserves some credit for that. But he almost got cut. And conspicuous in his absence is Maddie. Baneers who

wait. Why would he be on the top 150? I mean, based on his actual product on the ice. He's a good defensive player. Like that's,

that's really, that's really it. But if this is who he is, and I think you have to start asking the question, you know, you already should have been asking that question, frankly, about Maddie Bineers.

Like if, if this is who he is, and if this is the team around him, him like how do you expect it to work? And I just don't, I don't think, I don't think he can do it. Like I, I think he needs a level to take a couple levels up offensively and outside of a stretch at, you know, 22, 23 season. Like I went to Seattle and did a feature on.

Yep. Maddie Baneers. Like he came in and played great when he was done his college season, had a great rookie season. It's like, wow, this is the cornerstone that the Cracken wanted. but that's not how things have looked the last two years for him. But I also think it's unfair to pin it all on Maddie Baneers. Like I think there's, yes, we can have the conversation of who is Maddie Baneers and is he going to be good enough to be the cornerstone that this team needs.

But like Maddie Baneers didn't build this roster. Like that's, it's so unfair to pin Seattle's future or past mistakes or issues on Maddie Baneers himself. There was so many missteps that led to all of this being on a guy who should just be allowed to be a very good middle six center. Yep. Yeah. It's not meant to knock the player that Maddie Baneers has become either.

Like, he's a valuable player. And on a team. I do think he should be a top 150, by the way, Sean. I just think that's not the way that he's played. He was fairly close. Like, like he, like if it were a top. one 60 he'd have been on he was he was one of the first cuts I'd say but like and that speaks to the kind of player that he is you know he's he's a valuable guy yeah taken in the full context of their

roster and in their organization you know he is is is where it turns into a problem like there's way too much pinned on him for sure and their whole thing doesn't work unless Maddie Baneer is above the Dylan Larkin line, let's say, which is like the difference between being a a relatively high end 1C and something less than that. Like that's what the Cracken pinned a lot of this on. And the fact that he's pretty good but not great, shouldn't be enough to, you know, make you feel as sour as we do

on their prospects moving forward, but it's true. Like that's just, that is a, that's an organization that is just way, way, way short on high-end talent. And it goes back to the expansion draft, and we're not going to relitigate that here, but, but there's just, you know, Maddie Baneers needs help that he's not going to get internally. Correct. So you're selling on the Seattle Cracken? If there were like a big red button for me to hit right now, I would do it.

I don't know if Lane Lambert is going to get the meaningful improvement from Maddie Baneers and Shane Wright and Ty Cartier that is required for this team to be truly more competitive and good. Because it's one thing to say the sharks are going to be bad, but more competitive and fun. And another to say that about the Cracken, like the sharks were fully in a tank mode rebuild, you know, like meaning little A B step improvements is okay for a team like San Jose. I don't think little baby step improvements is enough for the Seattle Cracken. Joey DeCourt is a good goaltender. Outside of that, I'm not sure there's much I like about. Mason Marchman. They have players that I like, but they're not playing in the lineup that they should.

And that, guess what? If you're a good player who is expected to be great within the context of your team and you're not, that's a problem. And I think that, and I think they have way, way, way. way too many of those today and tomorrow. Yep. Yeah, I think that's fair. I was just trying to look up the stat very quickly here too, as we were discussing Maddie Bineers,

and this will be the last point. We're talking about him, like, why is he not in the top 150? And again, in the future he should be. I think at his best, he will eventually be there. But I think he was, yeah, 173rd in NHL scoring this season. And that's just on like basic stuff.

It's impossible, right? Like, it's impossible to argue him on the list, given that, given that amount of production. It's just the way it goes. It's a shame. Unfortunately. All right. Let's move on because we're both selling on the Seattle Cracken. Honestly, I don't know where they go from here. There could be a whole podcast episodes and like written projects redrafting and relitigating what happened with the expansion draft and where they go from here. We don't have time to do that now, but we should visit that. some point in the near future because I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what happened and what they do to fix it honestly. So this is where the drop off happens. We go from number six, even though we did just kind of shred the crack. And that was the last like, quote unquote, could improvement team that we're going to be discussing here. So we go from six all the way down to 17 overall in the league in terms of improvement to the Calgary Flames with a zero net rating added. Unfortunately, like just such a boring. off season for Calgary.

They lose Anthony Manta. Dom didn't even include that in the net rating. He's like, who cares? So there is no actual statistical change. Yeah, it's just that is. Anthony Manta, you mean the best player that the Pittsburgh Penguins add in the off season? That is just such nasty work by Dom.

Who's like, yeah, who cares? So truly the only thing that is changing for the Calgary flames on paper, which is why we have a zero net rating is. is a replacement level backup goalie swap. They lose Dan Vladar an ad. Ivan Presetstov. That's it. The biggest thing the Flames did this summer,

it's not going to change the net rating, but this did just happen a couple days ago. They signed Dustin Wolf, their number one goalie, goalie of the future franchise guy to a huge seven-year, $52.5 million extension. He was entering the final year of his contract. So that's a pretty big extension.

And, you know, obviously knowing what's happened in Calgary over the last couple years going into the season, you know, without the chatter of will he or won't he stay, that's got to be a nice thing for Flames fans is knowing like we've got Dustin Wolf locked in, at least we have that. Unfortunately, it's going to be a year of even more trade chatter with Rasmus Anderson because he's in the final year of his contract. And there's just been a ton of rumors about a potential trade there. So Flames don't really do a ton. and I don't see that being a team that meaningfully improves in any regard.

What's there to like about them long term other than Dustin and Wolf right now, truly? The idea of them actually doing a tear-down rebuild. The idea of the flames actually trading Rasmus Anderson, trading Nazim Kodry, and like moving pieces out and doing something. If Dustin Wolf plays, if who he was last year is who he is moving forward, and frankly there's no there's no reason to think otherwise because the dude has stopped pucks at every single level despite issues with his size and all all those things he gets he's gotten dinged for if he's as good as he was last year they're not going to be able to bottom out

which is exactly what we said about why they needed to trade jacob markstrom it's like well as long as they have marksstrom they're not going to be able to fully rebuild and now they just have like probably the actual homegrown goalie the future that's they've been searching for for a very long time. It's just the timing is, is bad. Like, they don't really have a great, exciting,

like some of the young prospects that were in the organization when I was covering the team are either gone or not superstars, right? Like Jacob Peltier was supposed to be the guy. Maybe Conner's area ends up being the guy. I don't, I don't know. I don't find,

Matthew Coronado, maybe he ends up being the guy. Like, those are the things to watch in Calgary this season, is what can the young kids do with Dustin Wolf and what are they going to do with Razmus Anderson? But yeah, I don't know. We're still looking at the flames.

It's like Coleman and Michael Backland and Nazan. Like it's this very strange mix of veterans. Their top. Their top projected forwards, 3, 4, 5, and 6 are Matt Coronado, Connor, Zerry, Blake Coleman, and Morgan Frost. it's not good. Not good.

Yeah. So yeah, it's, I, I, I, it's, it's,

it's, they're just stuck in the mushy middle and, and, and unfortunately for Flames fans, this is the conversation that we've been having for a very long time. And, and that includes a time in which the Calgary Flames had legitimate star power. Even with Johnny Godreau and Matthew Kuch,

or peak Mark Giordano, this was still a team that was stuck in the mushy middle, always. even if they made the playoffs, they wouldn't win the first round. So, no, there's nothing to, I, I would sell my Calgary Flamesstock because they are still in the same place that they've always been. It's a pretty easy sell for me too. But shout out to Nazim Kodry, who was really, who was really good last year. He's still, he's still a really effective.

He's really good and it doesn't matter. Nope. They should trade him. They should trade them to a good team because that's, you know, that'll help them get where they need to go. and it'll just place cadre in a more in a more appropriate environment. It should go be some super third line center again. Yeah. All right.

Number six, Vancouver Canucks negative two net rating 25th overall. See, the drop continues. It's getting bleak here. Relatively quiet off season, they did not aggressively change the roster this summer. Obviously, there was like a season of change in Vancouver. but if we're just looking at their summer, and is Evander Cain out as Pia Suter?

Pius Sutter. Did I just botch that? Was that O for two? Pia Suter. Thank you. I should do this off mic before we start recording. I apologize to everyone. We're still in off-season mode.

Ha-ha. We're not at the point of being at training camp and saying I'm in the best shape of my life yet. That'll be next week or whatever. The biggest move that the Canucks made this summer was to retain its top, unrestricted free agent, Brock Besser. obviously does not change the net rating, but it's a good move.

Ultimately, for me, I think the Canucks entered the offseason with significant needs up front in terms of their depth. Those needs still remain. Vander Cain does not check all the boxes that the Canucks had in terms of what improvements they needed to make. So I think where we're at with Vancouver is if you're buying stock in the Canucks, it's because you believe in that core group that remains, which is, you know, after moving out J.T.

Miller, et cetera would be Pettersen, Quinn Hughes, Connor Garland, Brock Besser, and Thatcher Demco. And then, you know,

you like their additions that they've made in years previous, like Jake Debrusk and Philip Roanick. So do you buy on Vancouver? It's not really based on their offseason because they didn't do a whole lot. But if, yeah, like I said,

if you're buying on Vancouver right now, it's because you, think that it was fine to do nothing because you believe in the group that exists. I think Quinn Hughes probably had a stronger MVP case last season than people made him out too. Like the amount of weight that he had to carry for that team night in and night out. Like I still don't think he's getting enough credit for it. So as a player period, I love Quinn Hughes. we're asking the question now

and we're fresh off of the player media tour in Vegas where Jack Hughes gets asked about it. No, no. That's part of the... The reaction to that is so stupid. It's not stupid. What is that you're supposed to say?

Yeah, of course he'd like to play with his brother. Like, I don't like doing the like insert media core is annoying thing here. Like, I think that's rude because we're all media, members and we're all colleagues, but like, please, God, do you want Jack Hughes to be like, no, I hate my brother actually? Like, come on. If Quinn Hughes was signed for more than two more seasons, I would have, I would have not thought about it. It has to be in this discussion,

when we're talking about buying or selling on the future of this team moving forward, I think the fact that that axe is swinging a couple, a year or two or however long down the road, that makes me nervous. And the fact that Thatcher Demko is coming off serious hip problems, which is something that profoundly concerns a lot of people around the league, by the way. I mean, right. Sure. That's fair. But you can't sell Kinnock stock because Jack Hughes said he'd love to play with his brother one day. I can sell Kinnuk's stock because Jack, because Jack Hughes is signed for a gazillionaires in New Jersey and Quinn Hughes is signed for two in Vancouver. Absolutely. I absolutely can. And I am.

But if Quinn Hughes leaves Vancouver, it's not going to just be because he wants to go play with his brother, Jack. It's because there's like other issues. It's because it's because that the group of players around him isn't good enough. Sure, but don't say it's because his brother said I'd love to play with my brother. That's lazy. And I'm not just calling you out. No, no, no. Listen, I think that it's not lazy, but that's just like the easy, the easy way out.

like if Quinn's going to leave in two years, it's not just because his brother Jack plays tomorrow. I mean, sure. If there's way more issues under the hood. There is a very real possibility that Quinn Hughes leaves that franchise to go play with his brother in New Jersey. It's real.

It is real regardless of... Because Jack's the package on it. I don't know. Because Quinn Hughes is one of the two best defensemen in the league in the New Jersey Devils. If you look at their contract structure, are completely preparing for that. It is real.

This is a possibility. And the Vancouver Canucks are a mess. And they have been for two seasons running. It is incredibly possible that two years from now we're talking about Quinn Hughes playing, whether it's for New Jersey or somewhere else, playing somewhere that ain't in Vancouver. It's real. And that is the kind of stuff that whenever we're doing silly exercises like this,

or it's buy or sell in the future the Vancouver Canucks, I am nervous about the future of their all-world defensemen with that organization. Sure. I'm just saying. I can't sign off on it. Okay, but I am just saying that overre, I think everyone freaked out because Jack Hughes said he would love to play this brother one day. He said it before, whatever.

It's something that happened three days ago. So sorry for bringing it up, but that's, but that's the reality, man. And also, by the way, their franchise center has played like a, like a low end second liner for two seasons running. Elias Pedersen, figure it out because the clock is ticking there too. Sure. And that's what I'm saying, though, Sean, is if you're selling on the Canucks, don't say it's because Jack Hughes said something like.

I'm selling on Canucks because it seems like Quinn Hughes is, is, is unhappy with the way things are going there and could easily end up elsewhere, regardless of, of where it is. If you're Quinn Hughes and you're as good a player as elite a player as he is, why would you sign on for more of this? Like of all the stuff that's gone on. Like everyone thought... I'm just saying, just say that. Don't say

because Jack Hughes said something. I'm very sorry for remembering something that happened two days ago whenever I started framing the discussion that way. But it's true. They should be worried about Quinn Hughes leaving that team. Because I am

and that's why I'm selling. Yeah. And this is what Quinn said in response. to that. He's my brother. What is he supposed to say? It's true. It's true. That's what I said. Like, you're, you're hung up on the, on the fact that I mentioned something. Like, it doesn't change the overall fact. But he also said, I'm excited to be in Vancouver. I feel like last year was a little bit of a failure. So I feel like I have things to do there. So, yeah, what would be better than he was last year, like, good luck with that.

The rest of the dudes on that roster need to figure it out. And so does the front office and so does the coaching staff. Yeah. And then he said, and I am not sold on their ability to do that. Yeah. And then, you know, he was asked if he was like mad that his brother

stirred the pot and he said, I don't care at all. That's just him being authentic. And if a fan base can't understand why he would say that it makes no sense to me. He's the man. Quinn, like Quinn Hughes, like the, the, the, the, the, the player he is, like the leader he's become.

Like, he gets A pluses across the board for me. And I, and personally, as an American hockey fan, I want better for that dude than than playing for an organization is, you know, influx, let's say, as they've been over the last little bit. And I'm not sold

that's going to happen. So you're selling on the Vancouver Canucks is what I'm hearing. Uh, yes, light sell. Yeah. Yeah. I, if we could just like stand pat, I would because I would love to see what happens this year with, is Demko going to stay healthy? Is Elias Pedersen going to play like a number one center or number one top line player again?

Quinn Hughes is the only thing about that team that I like. Yeah, me too. And that's why I will soft buy because I think Quinn Hughes is like last year Quinn Hughes carried the entire team like him and McCar are you know, as close as they can be. Cal McCarra is still the 1A. Quinn Hughes is the 1B. I would soft buy just because of Quinn. I'm not soft buying because I think the Canucks are great, but I would,

I think Quinn Hughes is unbelievable, so he's the reason to buy any stock in Vancouver. 100 point season for Lius Pedersen upcoming, clearly. Yeah. And then Quinn Hughes is going to sign an eight-year contract extension. Thank me later, Vancouver. I don't know. fans are probably going to hate that segment. We should just cut it out.

I got really mad for no reason. Called me lazy. Let's go to break. We'll be right back. We only have two more teams to go. I'll calm down. Let's take a break. We'll be right back.

All right. Welcome back to the athletic hockey show. We have two more teams left in the Pacific Division to decide if we're buying or selling. And number seven, the best team of the division. probably that we haven't talked about yet. I guess it depends on how you feel about the Vegas Golden Knights. But it's the Edmonton Oilers. They come in at a negative eight net rating,

29th overall. Turned over their forward depth, mostly is what they did this offseason. They bring in Andrew Mangiupani, Curtis Lazare, they lose Evander Kane, Victor Arvinson, Connor Brown,

Corey Perry, John Klingberg. They lost a lot on paper, but obviously still a very elite team with Connor McDavid and Leon Drey Seidel. Who? You know,

these two guys who might be the legitimate number one and two forwards in the NHL, that seems like that was more of a debate for player tiers this year, is as Leon Dries title actually become the number two forward in the league. Did he pass Nathan McKinnon in that regard? So obviously still an elite team. A lot's going to hinge once again on, on if they are going to have any secondary scoring,

if they're going to have any goaltending, and maybe some internal growth from rookies like a Matthew Savoy or an Ike Howard? What do you think? Are you buying on the Oilers? I mean, I would buy just because McDavid and Drysidal, but if we're just looking at their offseason, it's pretty uninspiring. I don't know if I can buy on them for another season worth of depth scoring issues and goaltending issues. Yeah, it scares me a little bit. they keep losing they keep losing cups because or whatever keep they've dead ended for the kind of kind of the same reasons right um and they didn't do anything to meaningfully improve there so no you know we're just strictly saying off season i would not buy on that off season if we're going by the letter of what the what this project is buying and selling off seasons i would soft sell on the oilers off season because they're just

running it back with different dudes placed in the same holes that they've had. Okay, we're going to see if Andrew Mangi Apani is an upgrade on Connor Brown. Like, really? That's what we're doing? I don't think they're going to make the Western Conference. I don't think they're going to make the Stanley Cup final again. So to me, given that that's where their stock is based on the last two years, I think it's got to be a cell.

And that's not meant as a cell of Connor McDavid or Leon Drysiddle, obviously. but like this is a team that has obvious issues and they didn't do anything to fix them. Like they shuffle the chairs in the forward group and they, you know, are still going to trot out Stu Skinner as their, is their number one. And that's not good. That's not good enough for me. That's why they lost to the Florida Panthers twice. So to me, you know, that kind of overrides everything else. Do you think Vegas is the, is that who you would put in the Western Conference final today?

Are we having a Vegas, Florida Stanley Cup final? Yeah, sure. Aden Hill was like pretty bad in the playoffs last year. They didn't really do anything about their goaltending. 23 cups a long time ago, man. Like, can't eat out on that forever. You got to ask that question about Aiden Hill. And then I don't know how much you want to get into the Conradict David hasn't signed a contract extension.

He's been asked about it every single time. He's been in front of media. The prime minister in Canada, Mark Carney is now joking about it too. I don't know if you saw this today before we started recording. He's in Edmonton right now. And in his speech, the prime minister of the country in which I live in is talking about the crisis with global trade, supply chain issues, and Connor McDavid's contracts. potentially losing one of their one of that country's greatest greatest resources yes um

it's it this is going to be an issue until it's not and i i i think we all need to be i think we all should probably be realistic and be honest about about it because it's where training camp is here basically and it doesn't sound like anything is getting done soon so yeah that we're going to have more than enough time to talk about what comes next for for Connor McDavid, but can I say I want to see Connor McDavid just sign for two years and then either re-sign again or leave and cash out in a huge way. Like I want to see the best player in the world like truly change the way that players are paid in the NHL.

Always. It's something that I've been rooting for for a long time going back to. you know, when Alex Oveskin was the highest paid player in the league for a whole bunch of years. I think that it does, it is going to take. And also something really, there's an interesting piece from Myrtle up on the site. You know, it's going to be a few days old as of this point. But exploring that, like, is there a $20 million player in the, in the, in the NHL right now? And the answer, the potential answers are, are interesting for sure.

But, um, I, look, how am I supposed to buy stock? in the Edmonton Oilers if Connor McDavid doesn't. Tough question. Tough question. He really cooked with that one. And then, you know, you look at some stuff a little further down the roster sheet. There's a lot of people that are worried about Matthias at home. I think those are city miles on that guy.

He's an old 35, and he still does a lot for them. They're relying on him pretty heavily. Um, it's a good defensive group for sure, but man, I just keep coming back to the fact that we're going into a new season with the same questions and it hasn't worked last two. So that's a sell. Yeah. Yeah, I would, I would sell on their off season. Like I said, you don't sell like, if we're just talking about the best players that they have, yeah, they have two of the best players in the world on their roster. Um, but uninspiring off season that has left the same holes and the same question marks going into the.

year. Obviously, getting to the Stanley Cup final with those questions is good, but they didn't win again. So we'll say, all right, last team here. It's not just the least improved team in the Pacific, but the least improved team in the entire NHLT. LA games and minus 18 net rating 32nd overall. Such a weird set of decisions by a team that keeps losing in the first round to the Edmonton Oilers. They add Corey Perry, Yowal Armiah, Cody, C, Brian Dumlin, and Tom Forsberg. They lose Tanner, Geno, Vladislav Gavakov, Jordan Spence, and David Riddick. Their blue line looks largely downgraded, and they aren't going to be paying Cody, Cici, and Brian

Dumlin more money than Gavrokov is going to make on the Rangers. So he could be paid a combined 8.5 million Gavrokov signed for seven. It's really shocking that Dom's projection model doesn't love what doesn't love the offseason that the LA Kings had. I can't believe it. Do you like it? No, of course not. And the frustrating part about them is that the guys at the top of the roster are good. I know.

Adrian Kempi is a high-end player. And he's gotten better. He's top 20 in goals per 60 over the last three years. And he is improving as a five-on-five guy. And his reputation around the league has risen accordingly. Like, Andre Caputar, still, still out there doing it, still a super effective player. Kevin Fiala, great second line winger. He's not like a, he's not, he can't be your best player, but for them, he's not.

In Quentin Byfield, after a little bit of a snake bit and start to last season, where the shooting percentage was, was really, really low. Yeah. but there's still plenty of good stuff happening under the hood. He finished the regular season just on a tear, right? The puck started going in the net. So he seems, you know, at this point in his career, there's a lot of folks that we talk to for player tiers

think that he's more equipped to level up to a high-end all-star than, say, Connor Bedard or Wyatt Johnston. These are players who for a long time have been treated, or at least the last couple years, have been treated with a little bit more reverence than him. He's showing signs of being that true, you know, let's say franchise caliber centerment. He just,

he just needs to produce over the course of an 82 game season. And there's a reason to think that he will. So you have all these pieces in the mix at the top of the group offensively that make you like where they're going, right? Yeah. At least as it relates to getting out of the first round. But then you go out and you sign a bunch of defensemen who, the internet hates for

valid reasons and think that that's going to be good enough man and I'm just not I'm not there I'm also worried about Darcy Kemper doing it for another season like there's there's question marks and there's too many of them yeah to me if we're looking at again

their off season we look at the point of this exercise I'm not I'm not buying on the Kings right now just a weird off season after a year where it looked like they were taking steps in the right direction. They ultimately lose in the first round again to Edmonton. But that's what makes me want to sell is they looked better last year and it looked promising and it still wasn't enough. And now they had a weird offseason. So why would making your blue line worse on paper actually make the team better? Maybe there's a world in which their system is what matters and Cody

CC is going to be good and fine. But I'm not relying on that. They replace Vladislav. Gavrakov with the kind of players that they think Vladislav Gavakov is. And that's not accurate. Like Gavrakov is a high end, all defense, you know, we'll say second pair on a good team. And Bode Cici and Brian Dumblin aren't. And I think the work that they did and the work that they failed to do with the defensive group, Haley, absolutely, is just, it's going to railroad them. Because we love Mikey Anderson in these parts.

but when he's your top projected defenseman based on rating, you know, and then you got a 35-year-old Drew Dowdy, and then you have, you know, you have a player in, a player in, in Brent Clark.

He's still been good, by the way. Oh, yeah, for sure, but, you know, he's getting older. And Brent Clark has- Drew Dowdy and Mikey Anderson be your number one and number two defenders. Mikey Anderson, Drew Dowdy,

Brent Clark, who hasn't popped all the way yet. Like, this is, that's a lot of questions. So, no matter if you like, quitting byfield to level up, I think it's a tough ask.

So kind of a bleak end. It's strange that, so what, we're our only buys? Just ended on the oilers. What, and just ignored the Kings? No, swap them. No, no, I was going in order. No, no, no, no, no. We only bought the sharks, the ducks, and then the knights in the Pacific.

I think that's fair. You know? Calgary had kind of an unsustainable season last year. The Oilers, it's tough to pencil them in to another cup final, and the Kings were a punchline after the off-season that Ken Holland had. What do you want from me? Sell, sell, sell. I don't know.

To stop overthinking, Jack Hughes's quotes. This is going to be tough if Quinn leaves two years from now. Everyone's going to think I'm dumb. Talk to you in 2027, folks. Woo! It's just rude. We'll see. At least one of us is going to be right.

No. No. I didn't say he's not leaving. I said don't be lazy and say he's leaving because Jack said he wants to play with his brother. My attack was against you. I get it. Not the premise.

I had personal beef with what you. were saying not with the attack should have been the attack the attack should have been on pierre lebrun and mike russo and all those colleagues that are who are of ours who are at the vegas media tour it's their fault i blame russo for everything it's not going to stop he was very kind to you in the playoffs you shouldn't think that way about mike do you mean my my personal uber driver my uber driver in and start in starbucks uh go for mike russo yes he was a good He's a good man. He's the best.

All right. So, it's pure. That's it. That was tough. We started, I think maybe we were being too nice at the start and then got cranky and mean towards the end. I know I did. Speak for yourself. All right.

Thanks, Sean, for doing this. We'll be back for the next episode. We take a look at the Western Conference's Central Division as we wrap up our buy-and-sell project in the 20, 25, 26 season. Central should be more interesting. I hope. Fingers crossed. See you guys next time.