The Athletic Hockey Show - Who holds the power in today’s NHL?

Episode Date: September 21, 2026

After a seemingly unprecedented NHL offseason, with Brady Tkachuk forcing his way off the Senators and onto the Panthers, Dylan Larkin and Connor Hellebuyck both requesting trades, and Leo Carlsson signing a massive offer sheet with the Flyers, the guys break down the implications of hockey’s shifting balance of power and how it could impact the future of the game. Before that, the guys discuss yet another star Blue Jackets player, Kirill Marchenko, refusing to commit longterm in Columbus.Hosts: Max Bultman and Mark LazerusExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris FlanneryWatch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Mark Lazarus for another episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. I just wanted to kick today's episode off with a question for you, Las. Do you like podcasting here? I like podcasting. Do you like podcasting here with me? I'm here right now. I'm podcasting.

I like it. Boy, that's a tough one. That's a tough one for me. that's a tough one for the Columbus Blue Jackets because that is right about what happened in Carl Marchenko's first availability of this preseason las. And, you know, it's been a weird summer for Columbus. It's been a weird offseason for the NHL. We're going to talk about that.

It's been a weird history for this Columbus Blue Jackets. Let's be honest here. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's a young franchise that is, you know, not as young as, you know, I think we sometimes talk about it as, but, you know, as they approach. they're, what are they, mid-20s now, not a lot has gone right. And there have been multiple times in the last five or six years where it seemed on the cusp of making that turn. And I would say six months ago, seven months ago, was one of those times where Rick Bonas comes in and everything

is going so well. Zach Werenski's in the middle of a Norris campaign. They've had these kind of breakout scores, Adam Fantalia, their kind of future center situation seems like it's trending the right way. And all of a sudden, so much. of that is now in question. Werenski has his whole trade request drama this summer. Marchenko now seems extremely tepid, as we kind of tease there, of his future in the organization. And Fentilly is not even in camp yet, one of a few players that are not in camp right now as we get, as Precest and Games have started. It's bizarre a world.

And there's a league-wide context of this that we will talk about, but I think we got to start with the Columbus Blue Jackets. Yeah, and it's a bummer, right? Imagine being a Columbus Blue Jackets fan. Every few years, some superstar comes in and says, I don't want to be here anymore. Goes back to what? Rick Nash has done this. Artemi Panarin has done this.

We're seeing it right now with Marchenko. With one of the great moments in franchise history, you finally lure a star player and it's Johnny Godreau. It ends in absolute tragedy. It's been a really, you know, it's just a kick in the teeth after a kick in the teeth for Blue Jackets fans. And now this, you know, and the Fantilly situation is becoming alarming, right? Yeah.

Like Adam Fantilli was part of that holy trio with Connor Bedard and Leo Carlson. But he is not Connor Bedard and he is not Leo Carlson. And he doesn't have the Carlson offer sheet coming his way. If he thinks he's going to get $15 or $18 million, he's delusional. But he's trying to get what he thinks he deserves in this rising cap era. And Columbus is trying to pay him what he probably is worth or a little less because that's what management does. And now you have a team that, like you said, six months ago felt like it was on the verge of a big playoff push. that's now an utter disarray, going nowhere, about to lose one of its stars.

Its best player is kind of, you know, doing damage control over a huge PR flare up over the summer and Zach Wrenski. And now Fantilli, in the shortest training camp we've had in 13 years, isn't participating. I mean, it's just, it's just disaster after disaster. To your point about, you know, he's not Leo Carlson and he's not Connor Bedard. I think a fair counterpoint, though, is that he probably, I think he's at least as good as Cutter-Gote. I know he hasn't had the 40-go season yet, but I think that's,

That's in the wheelhouse. And Cutter-Gotee got 13 and a half million. I think in Adam Fantilli is like a true center. I think that's a fair point to say, hey, I should get what Goethe's gotten at least. Gotier's coming off a 41 goal season. I mean, Adam Fantili has not come close to that yet. Who would you take on your team?

It's a fair question. And you're right, he's a center. He's their number one center. He's their guy. But yet, if he's willing to, is he willing to take 13.5? Does he think he's worth more than Gautier? Does he think he deserves Baderd money?

how these negotiations work and everybody's out getting their bag right now and for good reason because if you sign now, you're going to be underpaid within two years. Everybody knows that. So everybody's trying to go over the top here and get Leo Carlson money. And Fantilli's not going to get that. But the blue jackets have been, you know, they're not, I wouldn't call them a penny-pinching organization, but they're not just throwing out, you know, huge dollar contracts left and right. This is kind of a new situation for them to be in.

And it's a dicey thing. And the season starts a week from tomorrow. And he's not signed and he has not practiced. And I understand that, you know, from the team side of things, like they haven't had kind of the success that they want to reward a huge car, or bestow a huge contract as like a reward in that sense. And Anaheim has at least been to the second round of the playoffs and seems like the trajectory has been upward. We'll see how they handle all this influx of new contracts, too. That's a real question. But I just think when you're the Columbus Blue Jackets and you've struggled with the center position for so long.

And now here is your guy. Is he, again, one of those top-tier first-line centers? No. Is he even like a bona fide, like, you know, is he a one-see on half the league? I don't know if he's there yet, but I still really think Adam Fantilli's there. And I just, I think for the Columbus Blue Jackets, you're kneecapping yourself, the longer you let this drag. So much of this from Rick Bonas was about, you know, I'm going to change the culture, you know, at the end of last year. And this seems like a very much a continuation of the culture.

And, you know, there's difference. I know it's not quite what he's talking about. to be in the player sense, but in just the drama, the chaos, though, like, of course, this is happening since. This feels like more of the same. I think what would have felt like a change is get this done, get your best player to camp, get rolling. And there's certainly a value, impossible to put a monetary value value on showing that

you're not the same old blue jackets, that you're going to go out and you're going to sign your guys. You're going to keep them here long term. But that said, you just, let me think about where we are right now in the NHL. You just said that Adam Fantilli is probably not. 101 C on about half the team is in the NHL. I agree with you. He's very good. He's not great. And you're talking about giving him more than Connor McDavid.

That's where we are right now in the NHL with these contracts. And I think what you're seeing is general managers and owners are having a tougher time with that than players and agents and fans are. I think we all see it. And they, I think they're not dumb. GMs are not dumb. They're trying to like limit the rise of the tide as much as possible. But I think they're just being, they're just not facing.

reality here. This is what it is. A one C, even a middling one C, is going to get just absolute staggering amount of money. And it's got to be fine in like three years. It'll be totally fine. It is. And the sticker shock is real, to your point. I mean, Fantilli is their best forward, though. Like, what are you going to do? I said best player. Obviously, Zach Warnski exists. But I think he is still your best forward. If it's not him, it's Carril Marchenko. And that's not settled either, right? I mean, we make the joke off the top. I mean, that was about as unconvincing of an answer as you could have seen from a star player entering camp. Yeah, that's a guy who's out.

He is not going to be here next year. He is not really pretending otherwise. To his credit, I mean, I'd rather a guy be upfront about it than be like, you know, you don't want to have what happened to John Tavares and the Islanders, right? You don't want to have a guy just leave. And if he's telling this team, I'm not coming, then at least they can make a move and get something for him. Problem is, there's no way you're going to get equal value back for Keryl Marchenka,

right, he's young. He's only at like $3.8 million, I believe, is his salary cap hit. And the blue jackets aren't like swimming in cap space right now. So they're not going to be able to get a 35 goal scorer back for Karel Marchenko. They're not going to get a player of his caliber, his youth, and his contract. So it's just like you said, it's, they're completely kneecapped again as a franchise here because somebody doesn't want to stay in Columbus. Yeah. No, it's a tough spot to be. And it's not the only tough spot around the league, but it might be the one where the most has kind of gone wrong. And I realize in saying that, that I'm around a franchise every day that doesn't even have a permanent GM right now. But I still look at Columbus and Detroit and say, man, both of these teams have so much to solve. It's a weird thing about Columbus, too.

It's kind of getting, it's like this reputation of the Winnipeg of America, right? Where nobody wants to play there. Columbus is a great place. It's really nice. And I always joke about how, for some reason, I don't understand it. NHL players love St. Louis, right? St. Louis is like heaven on earth to NHL players.

They all retire there when they've played there. They never want to leave. You know, Colton Pereko is nixing trades. He wants to be a St. Louis blue. Columbus is just St. Louis with a nicer downtown. Like, it's got great suburbs, great places to raise your kids, great schools. It's nice. It's a big city.

It's like a top 10 city population-wise, the whole metro area down there. I don't understand why it has this reputation among play. Is it New York or L.A.? No, of course it's not New York or L.A. But it's not some backwater in the middle of nowhere. It's got a nice arena, a little dated, but it's a nice arena. The players are treated well. The fan base is great.

They put up with all this crap and they keep coming back. I don't understand why, you know, they have airport and Wi-Fi and everything. I don't understand why Columbus has this reputation as a place nobody wants to play. Is it a facilities thing? Like, I mean, they don't have the big fancy practice facility that a lot of teams do. I'm just trying to, I'm grasping at straws here because you're right. Whenever I go to Columbus, I'm like, oh, this is nice. It's perfectly fine.

Again, it is not the most exciting city. But a lot of these guys, you know, I've been talking to players a lot about this. Would you rather be in a intense market with tons of pressure, but all that praise and celebrity status? Or would you rather just be an anonymous guy like the Florida Panthers are, the Dallas Stars are? And more than half the guys I've talked to said they want the quiet. Well, what are you going to find that's more peaceful than Columbus, Ohio? You're not going to be, you know, recognizing the street everywhere you go. You're not going to be bombarded all the time.

You know, you get to work with Aaron Portsline. Who wants more than that? That's right. It seems like it's a really nice place to play hockey. And, you know, they've had some success. Is it just a success issue? Is it I don't think I can win here? Well, it's the chicken and the egg.

Can they not win there because nobody wants to play there? Or does nobody want to play there because they can't win there? I don't know. Yeah, and I tend to think winning follows, right? Like Buffalo kind of had that tag for a while. I don't think we're hearing that really much about. Buffalo. And that's been less than a year that that phenomenon has kind of seemed to resolve. So I know there's the whole Palm Trees thing. I personally, I know there's something to it.

Guys do love to be able to golf. They love to be able to kind of go outside on their off day. But I refuse to believe that hockey players are afraid of snow. It's just not going to convince me of. Most of these guys grew up in Western Canada or Sweden. Come on, man. They know how to handle snow. Yeah. No, it's a strange time. And I think that segues into our into kind of our bigger topic for today. So we will get to that after the break. But first, How do you rank a 50 goal scorer against one of the greatest shutdown defensemen of all time? That is the fight at the heart of the Hockey 100, the Athletics New Book,

ranking the 100 greatest modern NHL players. It is out October 27th. Go get it and then argue about it in your group chat. Are you the kind of sports fan that wants to dig into the story behind the stats? Join the Athletic Live on YouTube to cover all the sports stories you can't stop talking about. On game days, we'll watch the biggest matchups alongside the athletics most tapped in reporters, and you can become part of the show in the interactive chat. The Athletic Live is presented by Google Gemini,

and you can subscribe now on YouTube. All right, Laz, we are back at it. And like I said, to end the first segment, we got some kind of dovetails here off of this Columbus situation because it is not isolated to Columbus, right? It may be the locust of kind of the most ongoing examples of this, but it's been the summer of player empowerment. That's something we've talked about for years

that the players kind of can take more of an active role. and controlling their own futures. I think we saw an avalanche of that. And I wonder what you've thought of it as it's kind of unfolded, the way it's unfolded. What have you learned about what this might look like in the NHL? Well, it's funny. I feel like I've been pushed,

and not that anybody listens to me, why would they? But I've been pushing for this for years, right? Especially during the Flat Cap era. I remember four years ago talking at the NHL Awards availability, talking to all the game's biggest players, McDavid and Eric Carlson and Adam Fox and Kill. in the car about why do you guys keep taking seven and eight year deals, especially when you know eventually they're going to catch up from the flat cap era and you're going to start making

money again in this league with all the expansion and everything. Why are you hamstringing yourselves? You're limiting your earning power. Why are you doing this? And now that the cap is skyrocketing, it feels like we've caught up to that idea where guys are like, well, either pay me a ridiculous sum of money or I'm going to take a three-year deal, a four-year deal, a five-year deal. We're not seeing those seven-year deals anymore. And eight-year deals don't even exist now that we're into the new CBA. I think this was inevitable. We've seen the NBA go to this.

We've seen in baseball. Baseball is interesting because you get like those 15-year contracts, but they all have like a third-year player option to opt out of them. Hockey, you can't have that. You can't have opt-outs. That's not part of the structure that's allowed. So these guys are just starting to take shorter deals because four years from now, they're going to be worth so much more money.

And this is how you maximize your earning potential. And you're seeing guys really take control not just in contract negotiations with that, but in their whole careers. I don't want to play here, I want to play there, you are dumb enough to give me a full no movement clause, sucks for you, and that's where we're at right now. That's what you're seeing all across the league is guys taking control.

And now me, I'm all for it. I know it's frustrating as a fan when a player wants out of your city, but who wants to be on the side of management billionaires? It's like college football. Do you want these guys to get paid for being the ones that you're watching? Or do you want the rich donors and boosters to get the money? I want the players who are the ones that are putting out the product to get the money and to have the control.

But it does completely upend the way we do things. And as a college football fan, I hate that Northwestern as a new quarterback every year. They just get in the portal. And then he's gone after 12 games. I understand. But that's just the way it is. And it's better for the players that way.

It is, I think. But you draw the distinction as rooting for kind of the players versus rooting for management billionaires. And on that side, of course, I think everyone should want the players, you know, they are earning this money. They deserve the big. share here. But I think there is also a fan element of this, that the fans are a bigger part of

the universe in the NHL than they get credit for, right? And I don't think that's the same as management, and I don't think that's the same as the owners, right? I think that the fans' loyalty tends to align with management and tends to align with owners because they kind of have this loyalty to the logo, to the sweater. That's what stays the same when players come and go. But I do think there is something about, you mentioned it from an NIL perspective in college. That's the Wild West. That's what you got to avoid at all costs. That's my alma mater won the national championship in basketball this year, and I had such little connection to that team that it just was not anything like what I imagined.

You're ready for laundry, exactly. Yeah. So it was a fun team to watch and all, but I didn't have the emotional connections there. And I don't think hockey's ever going to get there. Like, it's not going to get to perpetual free agency like they have in college sports. But I do think that that that's part of the reason it's been so jarring for fans, is that they are used to contracts expire. Players come and go.

Like, that's been a part of the game. What's changed is the leverage players are exerting on trade me here, and you can only do to these places, and it's going to alter what you can get in a return. And I think that is a legitimate gripe for fans to hold. And I don't think that's the same as siding with the billionaires. No, that's fair. And what's really interesting, I was at the player two,

and I asked like 30-something guys about this, and I've been talking to people around the league about this for a story that I'm working on. And the players aren't mad about it. Like, you know, if you're a player and a guy wants off your team, they kind of get it. You know, and this has happened before. You think of Jacob Truba when he wanted out of Winnipeg because his wife had a job offer in New York. I'm pretty sure that's what will happen there. And that's a lot of what you see.

And the players understand, they all say the same thing. Like, look, you see a guy who wants out. We see a guy whose family might be in an uncomfortable situation where they don't, they're not super happy here. And if your family's not happy, you're not going to be happy. And a lot of this isn't just, I don't want to be here. I don't like my teammates. I don't like my coach. I don't think we can win here.

It's not always that cut and dry. It's almost always a story under the surface. And what interesting, right in your backyard, I talked to Alex Debrinkin about this. I'm like, aren't you mad that Dylan Larkin, your captain, doesn't want to play with you anymore? And he was like, no.

And then I realized, well, yeah, because Alex Tabringa just did this in Ottawa. He didn't want to be in Ottawa. He wasn't happy. His family wasn't happy in Ottawa. And he forced his way out of Ottawa, essentially, right? To go where he wanted to go,

which was home. Detroit is home for him. And now he's trying to decide if he still wants to stay because he's going to be a pending UFA. But the players don't get mad about this. And that's what's interesting is, and I asked to Brinkett this,

I'm like, so is it just a matter of to do this, to demand a trade? You just have to be willing to accept the fan backlash because your reputation's not going to take a hit among your peers. Is it just the fans? Pretty much, yeah, it's just the fans.

And if you're Alex Debrinkett, who gives a rat's ass if the Ottawa Senator's fan base doesn't like you? It's hockey. You don't have to ever go to Otto again except for work. Who cares if they don't like you? You just have to be willing to accept the fan backlash, which is mighty.

Don't get me wrong. But when you're talking about your family situation or your own situation, your career, your livelihood, it's a price you're willing to pay. It is. And that's a great point. And that's, I think the other side of kind of the fans as character is I do think that it can go a little over the top. I think the reaction in Detroit, like I understand where the fans are coming from on it. I think it's also over the top. I think it's been too much for what the situation, the reality of situation is.

Well, it's 10 years of frustration that's been bubbling to this point. That's why it's so over the top, I believe. And some of it is in the handling too, right? Like the press conference that didn't have any answers that didn't help the quiet things down. It just didn't, right? And I think Larkin was really coming at that from a genuine place. I think he went up to the podium that day to be like, look, if I don't talk about this, it's all my teammates are going to get asked about and it's going to be, I haven't

talked about it yet. He's injured. He doesn't have to talk to us while he's injured. You know that, right? He went up there and did that anyway. It's just because that there weren't actually any answers, it didn't solve the problem. And it magnified things, right?

But you're right that, like, the fan portion of that is the key here because he's going to get booed if he plays in Detroit. It's going to happen. And what I wonder is the difference in that versus that's your home arena. You're going to hear it how many times a year versus when you're Matthew Kachuk and you go back to Calgary or I don't even know if they boo him in Calgary at this point. But like, when you're John Taviris and you go back. back to Long Island. You only got to do that twice a year. And you can live with it. And then eventually,

I think it just kind of fades and it just becomes the norm. Maybe that will happen in this situation too. And I don't know what's going to happen for some of these other players, right? Like, how are Winnipeg fans going to react with Connor Hellebuck at some point when he's playing in their arena, most likely for another team as he's not reporting? But I think it's interesting because Larkin is reporting, right? He could be playing harder ball than he is here. And he's not. And yet the reaction, I think, is the most pointed at him, partly because he's a hometown guy, partly because, as you say, the frustration. And I think partly because of just kind of the handling, the way it's played out. So it's been an interesting thing to have a kind of a front row seat to.

And it does tend to fade over time. Like, Islanders fans might never get over John Tavares. But there may come a day where they retire John Tavaris's number at UBS Arena. Like, that's an entirely plausible thing. We see these teams kind of kiss and make up after a while. fan bases get over it. Chris Chelyos, you know, the story changes year to year whether he wanted out of Chicago or whether Chicago kicked him off to Detroit. But he's a, he's literally a team employee now. He's an ambassador. He's on broadcasts. He's around all the time. And he was persona

non grata for years because he went to Detroit, right? These things do tend to fade. Like the fear, the hatred in the moment, that that fever that builds up, it does break and it does fade over time. And people at some point will remember, wow, Dylan, Larkin was a really good Detroit Red Wing for a really long time during a really difficult time. And he was always a class act. And you know what? Maybe we'll get over this. It might take 10, 15, 20 years. But at some point, Dylan Larkin will come back to Detroit as a retired NHL player and we'll get a long standing ovation. It just always seems to work that way. I think most likely that that's the case, but it's going to take a long time. And, you know, it's interesting. Let me ask you this.

One of the topics that's come up, and it's been mainly about Larkin and Halebuck, because they're the ones that have so much time left. on their contracts and all this, but they both have five years left on their deals. There's been the sentiment that's been thrown around this summer that if you have a, if you ask for a trade and you have a no trade clause, it should nullify the no trade clause. Now, I hear that, and I think that is absolutely unenforceable. All that would happen is that players would stop formally requesting trades, and it would be in this kind of like pseudo zone. Maybe, I don't, has Marchenko formally requested a trade?

Or is it just like, hmm, you know, I'm not the most happy that I could be. Right? Because then you still keep your no trade clause, right? Like to me, I look at it and hear that it's just totally unenforceable, but I want to know, like, do you think that there's a viable way to, I get the sentiment behind it. It is, it's a tough spot. But to your point, you gave them the no trade clause. Well, that's just it, right?

Like, yeah, guys might, you know, quiet quit, essentially if they can't pick their team. But that's why you negotiate a no trade clause. This is, again, ownership and general manager's fault. Stan Bowman just signed Jason Dickinson and Connor Murphy to five-year deals. Jason Dickinson is 31 and has constantly been injured. Great player, but he's constantly been injured. Connor Murphy is 33 and has a chronic pelvic condition that is chronic pain and that has cost him to miss time year after year after year.

Stan Bowman gave them both full no-movement clauses for the first three years of those contracts in their mid-30s. General managers cannot help themselves. They see no movement clauses as a way of keeping down the AA. right? Well, what if I give you a no movement? Can I knock a million off your salary? And players who want control of their lives are saying yes to that. And as long as they're giving them out, they can't complain when a player exercises that no movement clause. The reason you have a no movement clause is so that you have complete control of where you play and you can't be sent to

some far-flung plays that you don't want to be. Max, you and I have contracts with the athletic. The athletic cannot just tell me you have to go to San Jose now and cover Macklin's Selle. Libriene every day for the rest of your life. They can ask if I wanted to do that, but they can't just do that. You can't just force me to leave my house and abandon my family, but professional athletes can be forced to leave their house and abandon their families. It's a ridiculous job, and they get paid a ton of money to deal with that, and nobody feels sorry for them, and I get it.

But this is why they want no movement clauses, because nobody wants to be thrown out of their house and told to live somewhere else against their wishes. Yeah, and to your point earlier about the sticker shock of these prices, the way to avoid it is to go to a higher number, right? Like if a player wants a no trade clause and you go, what if we gave you two million extra dollars a year instead? Yeah, I think that probably about makes up the difference. Maybe it's a different number.

Maybe it's a little higher. Maybe it's a little lower, right? But there has been, and I think the flat cap era, again, is a, is a character in all of this because it initiated so many of these contracts where teams had to find a way to keep the AV down. There was no cap growth and there were players that deserved raises. And, you know, especially as it started this movement of younger players, getting paid sooner, those bills were coming due earlier.

And so I think no trade and no movement clauses became a way to get around that. And it's just not the era where. How many teams do you think are going to be at the cap in three years? Half? Well, that's just it. Like a lot of teams are going to have trouble getting to the cap floor based on their internal budgets. Like a team like, you know, for years, Carolina had its own salary cap.

It wasn't the actual salary cap. They're better about it now. But there are a lot of teams that are not going to be willing to spend to the salary cap. There's going to be your Pittsburgh pirates out there that are just trying to get to the floor and get by on as little salary as possible because their owners don't feel that as worth the investment. They're not getting their return on investment. And we talked about this. These are businesses for some of these owners. It's not just toys for the rich. Some of these guys use this to make money. So if that's the case, then that's how you get away from all the no trade clauses as you go, okay, well, we're going to pay you more money and it's going to help everybody because you're going to make more money and we're going to be, you know, still have plenty of room to the cap. And yeah, it's, It keeps inflating the salaries, but guess what, guys? Like, get used to it. The NHL has lagged behind unacceptably to honor other sports.

And I do not believe that these other sports are, you know, the mediocre seventh men in the NBA have been worth more than Connor McDavid and Nathan McKinnon to their franchises. I just don't. Oh, my God. If you're a luggy reliever in baseball, a one-out left-handed guy, you could throw like 47 pitches a year and make $20 million. Alex Cobb made $20 million for the Tigers a year ago and did not. play. And that's not just like, yeah, but he was going to be their number one starter if he did. No, he was going to be their number four or number five starter if he did. He was in no way worth as much money as Macklin Celebrini is worth as San Jose Sharks. I'll tell you what I'm really fascinated to see what happens with is when all these guys who signed in the last couple of years before the explosion, like every Montreal Canadian basically, when their next contracts finally do come up, they are going to be out for blood, man. Like if you've been making, if you're Cole Cawfield, you're making what, like $9 million? a year, and he's just out there scoring 50 goals every single year, he's going to be like, give me the deed to the franchise.

I am now the owner of the Montreal Canadiens. You owe me so much. When Nathan McKinnon signed that $6 million deal that he was on for so long, he wasn't that good yet. But these guys are that good, and they signed just before the explosion, and they're going to be out for blood, man, when they come up for their next contracts, and good for them. It's very possible. I mean, people ask more excited about it in Detroit a couple of days.

ago. And he was like, it's fine. I'm, I'm taking care of as long as I don't do anything stupid. Like, they're not, they're going to be able to pay the rent. Yeah, exactly. And so there is some of that sentiment still. But yeah, it's been a very interesting, uh, summer. And it's the start of this stuff continuing, right? I mean, Simon Edvinson, when the Red Wings went into this summer, sorry to keep making this about Detroit, but this is my frame of reference that I see so many of these right. Right now Detroit's the epicenter of all of this. Right. So Simon Edvinson goes into the summer. He's an RFA, right? And he's an interesting RFA because he plays 22, 22, 23 minutes a night on their top pair and is a sixth overall pick and he's so obviously a

core piece for them. He doesn't have the counting stats that normally accompany that, but you're still looking around and you're saying, well, like, hey, Luke Hughes got, you know, $9 million a year on a long-term deal. I bet that's where Simon Edvenson's going to end up right around there. And then all of a sudden, Zeeb Bouillon comes in and Zeevooleum has played one year and it wasn't even particularly impressive or high minute. And it was, I think it was under 20 minutes a night in Vancouver. I get it's a tough situation. Same production. He's at 9.4, right? And so now you're looking at them and you're going to go, oh, you're going to make 10, 10 and a half? Are you going to make 11? Like, they still haven't signed that deal. And I have to imagine all of this is a big reason why,

is that I don't know that anyone really has their head around how to factor in for this growth. I think it's beyond the simple percent of cap adjustments that we got used to making on comparables. And I am curious to see how this affects, you know, the middle class of the NHL and the, you know, the bottom tier of the NHL because it's not an unlimited amount of money. And the way that salary, the exponential rise in salaries we're seeing from good, great, and elite players, you're not going to see that among fourth-liners, right? Those guys are not going to suddenly be making $6, $7 million. They're going to still be making $1.5 to $2.5.

Their percentage of the cap is going to go significantly down because every good player you get now is going to want $10 million or more, and they're going to get $10 million or more. And as much as the cap's going up, it's not going up $30 million a year. So there's going to be a disparity there. And I was talking to Ron Hainsey of the NHLPA about that. And he was quick to point that out. He's like, look, all this money, they're still getting just 50% of the revenue, right?

That's what's enshrined in the CBA. So if all the money goes to the top, it's not like everybody. It's not the rising tide lifts all boats necessarily. It's, you know, in my mind it's the rising tide lifts the really nice yachts. The yachts are getting nicer and the dinghies are still dingies. So it's not universal. And I should say, you know, I've been talking about how the players aren't about this. I'm not sure that's entirely correct because I feel like there's a generational

divide here, right? When Seth Jones, a couple years ago, wanted out of Chicago, he formally requested a trade and got traded to Florida. Not that, like, it was only a couple weeks later that Kyle Davins is like, we can't have this in the room. We got to trade it. Nick Falino, who's one of the oldest school guys in the league, spent the entire rest of the year taking shots at Seth Jones. Didn't call him out by name, but kept saying things like, we're playing better now because everybody who's here wants to be here. Everybody here is bought in. Everybody here is pulling on the same rope. There's nobody that's bringing us down. Every single time he spoke, and Nick Felino speaks a lot, he would obliquely mention Seth Jones and kind of jab him in the

ribs, kick him in the butt, knock him in the face, like every single time. And I don't know if that's Nick Folino playing a role and using it as like bulletin board material. I felt like he felt it. He felt like, screw you, man. I'm older than you and I've never won a cup and I'm bought in here, but you're not bought in here. You want to go chase a cup somewhere else, and that pissed them off. So I do think these older guys see this, and this is like an affront to the hockey culture.

You don't do this. It's we, it's not me, all that stuff. And the younger guys who grew up watching the NBA and these other sports and are like, that's how it should be, they have no problem with it at all. Do you think that you can hold both of those sentiments? Because it's something I grapple with all the time

is that, like, I was raised in that ethos that you're talking about with Nick Falino, right? I also do consider myself someone who is happy for the players, who wants the players to get more of their share, who wants the players to not kind of be boxed in. And yet, when it happens, I do find myself being a bit like, really? Yeah.

No, it goes back to college football for me. I got the Northwestern thing right back here. We used to have quarterbacks in Northwestern that would be there for four or five years, right? And they would grow. You'd see them. They were horrible as a freshman. They'd be a little bit better as sophomores.

They'd get pretty good as a junior. And then by a senior, you loved these guys and they became great, and that's when you had your big year. It's not like that anymore. And it's frustrating. It sucks being a college sports fan right now. It really does. With all the money that's going around and the conference, I don't want to see Northwestern play UCLA. I want to see them play Michigan, right?

You want to see the Big Ten. And the Big Ten is Rutgers now in Maryland. And why the hell is that? And there's two conferences and they're expanding the playoffs. And it's awful. College football is awful right now. But I'm happy for the players. They should be getting this money.

And all this money should be funneled to, them. And you should, if coaches can go and say, screw you, I'm leaving for a better job, why can't a player do that? Like I firm, like, you're 100%. I firmly believe in all of that, but it also, it does hurt the experience as a fan. And hockey fans for years have been saying, there need to be loopholes in the CBA that allow you to keep homegrown players, exceptions to the cap like the NBA has. And the NHL has resisted all that because they want the hard cap. But you can understand why, but that is anti-player too, right? Yeah. So it, it, it, It is. There's a cognitive dissonance there where fundamentally I know that this is right, but subjectively as a fan, it sucks. I get it.

And I just think that it's the trade side specifically is where the dissonance comes up. Like I said at the top, I think everyone understands that contracts expire. And when contracts expire, you're free to do as you as you will. I think it's the premature trade requests that get people, right? Like I think with Brady Kachuk, it was a conversation for what felt like the whole contract is like it's only a matter of time before he forces his way to Florida or to somewhere else or at least to the U.S., right? And I think that sucks. Like that that does suck that that's the situation. And I don't blame Brady for it.

Like I don't because I don't think he requested a trade four years ago and it took, you know, all this time to play out. In some ways, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy that there was all this conversation about when is he going to want out. And then they win the Olympic gold and everything after the gold medal game happens and it gets extremely loud in Ottawa. And I could see that that pushing it over the edge. I'm not reporting that that's the situation, but that's watching it. That certainly is how I read it, right? And, like, some of it's a self-fulfilling prophecy in that way, but it's, I just think the trade side of it is where the locus of the dissonance is, right? That's where it's like, man, you can appreciate someone kind of taking control of their future, but then you go, but then why did you sign for as long as you signed?

And you can go back and forth with yourself all day on that. Well, yeah, it's all the same topic, right? Is players taking control of their careers? And you're right, Brady gets shot two months before he worked his way out of there was like, I don't know why everybody's always saying I want out of here. I'm completely committed to the senators. And then to it's a slap in the face for him to, he basically lied, right? Like he, like it's not like he changed his mind in those two months.

We all knew that this was building. Maybe he fundamentally made a decision later, but we all knew that this was going in this direction. It didn't just suddenly have an epiphany. I don't want to be here anymore. So for him to go out and say, is nonsense, you're all making stories that aren't there, and then turn around and leave, it's a slap in the face. And that's why fans take it wrong. When you're being lied to, when you're being misled, when you feel like someone has betrayed you, it's different than someone

saying, you know what, I want to go play with my brother. I'd be happier there. That's all this is. Well, I was there the first day back when Ottawa returned, when Brady Kachuk returned from the Olympics. And I watched that scrum first. That, it was, and like, respect to the Ottawa reporters. The auto reporters were asking the questions that everyone wanted to know the answers to. They did their job. But I did watch it and think, man, if I was Brady, I don't know that I would want to sign up for another year of this. And he's already signed up for two more years of it. Right.

So at that point, like, I completely empathized with him. It was tough to watch, you know. And I'm not saying that anyone did anything wrong in it. It's just that was the reality of the situation. And so, like, I can understand why, like, even if he had felt like, okay, I'm going to finish my contract out. I can understand how at a certain point that would have been like, no, I can't, you know? But at the same time, you did sign it. And I just constantly find myself torn with that.

And I think we all kind of, even one year out, we all kind of expect that's when trades happen, at least of the players volition. Teams trade players, to your point, all the time. And that's the other side of it. It's, well, the teams trade guy with four years left on his deal. Why can't a player ask for it? They can. I think about something Maddie Baneers told me a couple weeks ago when I asked him, I'm like, does it bother you that, Jason Robertson didn't want to go.

Artemey Panarin didn't want to go. You have this beautiful arena. You're in this great city. And nobody wants to play in your team. And Benares is like, yeah, bother it. We take it personally. He said, but you don't want to be here. We don't want you here, right?

And if a player is genuinely unhappy, then he's nothing, it's really hard to mask that. And these are professionals. And Seth Jones was playing hard until the very end, even after his trade request. It wasn't like he was out there, you know, intentionally trying to be bad or anything like that. He was playing hard, and these guys will all do that. But there's an undercurrent there. And when you know that the guy next to you is not in the long term with you, he's not in it for the long haul, you don't want them there. You want guys that believe.

You want guys that are committed. You want guys that are going to be there. And, you know, you look at the Carolina Hurricanes and how much more it meant to them to win the Stanley Cup. When that core had been together for seven, eight, nine years, whatever it's been, that they pushed that boulder up the hill together and got to the top and how satisfying that is. you want guys who want to complete that process. And if there's someone in your room who doesn't want to be there and he's got three years left on his contract, trade his ass because I don't want him next to me, right?

I think that's part of the story here too is if a guy doesn't want to be there, he's not going to be at his best. Even if he's trying his hardest, he thinks he is. His heart's not in it. He's not going to be at his best. Dylan Larkin is not going to have a career year this year if he's a Detroit Red Wing. So, and I imagine that if you go in that room,

even that Dylan Larkin's buddies are probably like, this would just be better if you weren't here anymore. But I do think that when he gets the fresh start, he might have a career year. Like, I think that's totally, it's funny because I've seen some reaction and some clips of people talking about the press conference saying like, well, I wouldn't want him on my team after seeing this. You want him on your team. You do. Good player. Did you watch him for Team USA?

Did you watch him what it looks like when the expectations aren't all on him? He was one of the most impactful players on the ice in that tournament. And he's going to be again. And in fact, the lightness of the fresh start might produce a career year from him. Yeah, when you have a weight on your shoulders, it's, you know, it's going to baseball, the on deck circle in baseball with, you know, donuts on your bat and is swinging it real heavy. And then you take off those donuts and oh my God, this feels so light, man, I'm going to go hit a home run. When these guys have all that weight that they're carrying, because nobody likes doing this.

Brady and Chuck did not like dealing with that. Dylan Larkin's not having a good time right now. No. Prueh-Marchenko, not having fun with all this. Once that weight is taken off your shoulders, man, playing hockey becomes a lot easier. Absolutely. And again, like he reported, right, he's here. He wants to play hockey.

And the injury situation that is certainly about as brutal of timing as it could get in terms of a lot of reasons. But I do think that when Dillon Larkin plays again, he's going to play as hard as he possibly can. And, you know, it may be distraction for him, maybe distraction for everybody. But I think when he gets to the fresh start, I think he's going to take off. off. My question to you, Laz, on the big picture, when I joined the hockey beat, there was kind of always this conversation. And it was right as the Toronto young guys were kind of approaching their first RFA, their first second contracts, their first audit ELC. And it was this kind of conversation, like, we don't want to become the NBA here, where we have the players dictating to us. Has it and will it?

I don't think it's gone to the degree of the NBA. I think that this whole Team USA group chat thing. They're trying to equate it to like LeBron and his cabal of friends planning where they're going to go, you know, outside of the system, deciding what they're going to do and then signing together. There's, there's hints of that in the NHL. I don't think it'll ever get to that point. But the reason the NBA is so much more popular than the NHL, nobody wants to admit this,

is because of the offseason drama. It's the chaos. It's not the game itself. Look, I'm a Knicks fan. I loved last season. But the product has, is not. great right now in the NBA. It's just guys chucking up threes all day long and it's not that fun to watch. But the offseason drama, the soap opera of it all, the Kardashian of it all, where it's

just what's going to happen next, who's going to say what next, that does lend itself to more coverage, which lends itself to more discussion in the zeitgeist, which lends itself to more popularity. The NHL is never going to get to that degree, I don't think, but a little bit of that doesn't hurt. I feel like the NHL has been, this has been the most interesting offseason I have ever seen in the NHL. And that includes the year where, you know, what, the three guys, Suban and Stamcoast, that whole thing where they all signed with them like five minutes of each other on July 2nd or whatever it was. This has been the most we've talked hockey in the summer in my lifetime. And frustrating as some of it may be locally for certain fan bases, for certain GMs, for certain

owners, for certain players, it's good for the league. A little bit of drama. A little bit of chaos is good for the league. A little bit might be. A little bit might be. You got to find the right balance. You don't want to get to a play. And I think the NBA is at this place, at least for me personally. And the NBA is the toughest league for me to follow because it overlaps with my busiest season, right?

Hockey season. And I want to be watching hockey games. And so I don't end up watching a lot of NBA games. But when I do, I do find myself thinking like, man, Twitter makes this seem a lot more exciting than it really is, right? I remember when I used to co-host a radio show on the local ESPN station out here once in a while. And we had our Bulls writer on. It was Nick Ferdell now, I think works for us now. And it was Derek Rose drama.

And there was all these signings drama. And there was coaching drama. And there was all this stuff going on. And we're just peppering with all these questions. And at the very end, I'm like, Nick, what's it like covering the NBA? He goes, I'm tired, man. There are no off days in the NBA. They don't have no off season.

Every single day, you're just braced. for some crazy drama to happen. And yeah, maybe that's a bit too much, but a little bit of that would be fun. I just don't think you want the side show to become the main show. I think you still want the hockey to take center stage. And when there is this extra stuff, yes, it fuels more conversation. It does.

But I don't think you want to get to a point where you feel like you have this kind of addiction to that drama. And when there's not some, it gets manufactured. And then I think it really takes away from everything. And I wonder if at some point if it even creeps into the play in some way, And maybe you're kind of alluding to that in hockey earlier too. But I think that'll come over time though, right? Like we're going to see a course correction.

It might be like extra crazy these first few years. But as these contracts settle in, as the numbers become palatable, as these guys who want out, exercise their no moves and force their way out, I think at some point you reach kind of a stasis where guys are signing shorter term contracts so that it doesn't come to this anymore. They maximize their value. They maximize their flexibility with their careers. and we kind of hit like a normal point. We're in the crazy pendulum swing right now, the kind of dead cat bounce that we're at.

And I think eventually it'll kind of normalize to a level where we're all kind of happy with it. All right. I think that's going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to us today on The Athletic Hockey Show. Sean will be back with you on Wednesday. We'll talk to you soon.