The Athletic Hockey Show - Who will win the 4 Nations Face-Off?

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

The NHL is officially on break as the 4 Nations Face-Off is set to begin with a Canada-Sweden round-robin matchup Wednesday night. On today’s Monday show, the guys preview the tournament and discuss the vibe heading into it, the odds for each team to win the whole thing, dark horse MVP candidates, goaltending, and more. Host: Mark Lazerus With: Sean Gentille and Jesse GrangerExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hello, happy Monday, happy Four Nations break, and welcome to the Athletic Hockey Show. I am Mark Lazarus. Max Boltman is on assignment, so I am very happy to be joined by the Nicholas Matin-Pollo of the athletic, John Gentile, last-minute injury replacement. Sean, did you have to cancel a trip to Mexico, too? Yeah, I was ready to hit Tulum. My girlfriend's very, very upset.

We canceled a lovely six-day, seven-night trip in Touloum. so I could record with you today. Hello. Hello. I appreciate that. I appreciate the commitment to the bit there. Also, wait, Max is on assignment. Sounds so mysterious.

I don't know if he's just doesn't want to be here today or if he's got a vacation or if he is. It just sounds more professional to say he's on assignment. Cut him some slack and just hope he's on assignment. Sleep asleep somewhere in Metro Detroit. It could be a real possibility. Yeah, Max is sick of talking to me every week and wants a break. I can understand that. I hear that a lot from people.

Oh, yes. So what did you think of Super Bowl last night? Did you make it through? Did you actually watch that? I watched every rotten second of it. I did too. Towards the end, I was like, why is this? Why is this still on my television?

But I don't know, man. I think there was a shot in Freud component for me. I didn't mind seeing that happen to the Chiefs. I, there's no, I don't have any, like, particularly specific, like, personal beef with anybody on, on that team. I wouldn't say. But, like, midway throughout,

I was like, okay, this is actually, this is actually fun. I'm enjoying this beat down more than I thought I would. I have a tough time. You know, you're Pittsburgher. I'm a native New Yorker. It's tough for me to feel good for Philadelphia. That's where I have, I have a lot of friends from Philadelphia, though. So I'm like happy for them, but miserable in general.

It's not a really great feeling. I like Jalen Hertz. I think that's kind of the deal breaker for me. He seems like a, like a pretty cool guy. So whenever, yeah, whenever all that stuff is unfolding last night, that's kind of. Kind of where I landed. I can go along with that.

All right. Well, we've reached the Four Nations face off, which I don't know about you. I got to tell you, the pedant in me, the styling of that name is driving me absolutely bad. I hate it. The numeral four, the lack of a hyphen between the foreign nations, the unnecessary hyphen in faceoff. It's like how many different ways can you drive a needle into my brain with the way this thing is stylized? I think number one is using the numeral four. That's it.

It's wrong for many reasons. from like this is just this is aside from checkia not being in it at all my god right yeah Germany is not involved which is unfair too like it but yeah from a from an AP style book

patent standpoint man it's killer numeral four instead of written out four and then also starting sentences with four nation face off so you have the numeral at the start of it man that's like that's nails on a chalkboard galloper stuff

it's just I'm upset and And that's like, that's the start of the list of things that make this tournament kind of, kind of annoying. But it's not, it doesn't, it doesn't end there. It starts with the name and the styling, but it doesn't end there. Well, we're going to get there. That's what we're going to do today. We're going to talk all things four nations face off. We're going to dive into East roster.

We're going to do some rankings. We're going to pick some goalies. We'll make some predictions. We'll answer some of your questions. Let's start with the big news, though. Quinn Hughes is out for Team USA. This is arguably the most valuable player in the NHL this season. I think a lot of us, we're looking at the Americans as the favorites here,

based largely on the strength of that back end and the goaltending. Does this measurably change that in your mind? First off, Quinn MVP, I think he's on my, where does he stand for you? He's certainly on my short list right now. Right now, it's dry-siddle, Quinn Hughes, and Connor Hellebuck. I like that we kind of got one of each, right? And those are clearly to me the three most valuable players. players. I mean, Helibuck, it's really tough. I'm a big goal. He's deserve more heart-love guy.

It's hard to argue with him. But you look at the on-ice, off-ice difference when Quinn Hughes is on the ice for Vancouver versus when he's off the ice. And it's really tough to make an argument against him. Yeah, just the amount of goals that he's factored into as a defenseman, whether it's scoring him, whether it's setting him up. And, you know, his defensive games obviously improved measurably and significantly over the last couple years. So yeah, man, I don't know if he's, I know if he's number one for me just yet, but he's certainly really close to it. So, like, looking at it through those lines when we're talking about Team USA, yeah, there, is there anybody on that roster who's playing better right now?

And Quinn, he is outside, outside of Connor Hallibuck. We'll, like, exempt him from the discussion. Yeah, they might have just lost their best player. And I think that's, I think that's significant. I think the U.S. defensive depth is going to help. They certainly have guys who are capable of, you know, stepping up into his and taking over for some of the stuff that they're missing that Werenstke comes to mind, right?

Like he's, he's healthy and rolling and whatever, certainly. Jake, Jake Sanderson is the replacement, which, you know, solid, solid young players. So there's not,

you know, he's not a one-man gang when it comes to the, the defensive group. I think the U.S. has done well to really build out some depth there. But, man, that's a, that's a huge,

huge loss because he is. He's a, he's a, he's a catalyst. You watch the dude with a puck on his stick. you know, on zone exits or whatever, you just, you know that he's going to do something important with it. And I think the idea of him bringing that to the mix internationally, you know, is a big part of what made people come into this tournament treating the U.S. like a legit

favorite. And now he's out of the mix. It's a big deal. Yeah, it's a bummer too, because it would have been just fun to watch, you know, Queen Hughes with Adam Fox or with Charlie McAvoy. I mean, you got these amazing pairing, you know, Jacob Slavins and that you mentioned Werensky. he's in the Norris discussion this year. Brock Faber, I mean, it's still a hell of it, even still might be the best defensive group of the bunch.

It's certainly better than Canada's. It's certainly better than Finland's. Sweden can certainly make a case. But that just goes to show the defensive debt that the Americans have, that Quinn Hughes, you could take him off and there still might be the best group of all four of them. Oh, man, absolutely. I know Dom did a breakdown at the start of it,

where it was, you know, just strictly by the numbers based on his, you know, based on on his on his on his stuff who's who's up top and it was u.s like fairly decisively defensively fairly decisively and a lot of it started for the for the u.s. group where the u.s. had had a particularly a particular edge you know when you're talking about the defensive groups is on that left side because that's where there's a there's a lack for

canada specifically and you you look at the u.s and it's and it's in it's slaving and it's warrenski it's a guy like brock faber who can who can play both sides if it if you need them to And now you remove that alpha, you know, from the, from the left side of it, it's a, it's a bummer. But at the same time, you know, I totally agree with you, man. This is, that's a really strong defensive group. And you could argue pretty convincingly that even with him out of the, out of the mix, it's still, it's still the one you'd rather have. So, so here's the question I have for you. If this were the Olympics, Quinn Hughes is playing.

I am 100% certain Quinn Hughes is playing in the Olympics. This is a phony made up. This is the only time where there will never be another four nations turn. because we're going to have World Cups in the future in the non-Olympic year. It was funny. I went back. I went back and looked at some of the stuff that Batman, the Kerry Batman was saying, you know, when they announced it. And it was kind of, he kind of copped to it, like straight away.

He was like, yeah, this isn't ideal, but, you know, we need a little bit more runway to set up a true, a true World Cup situation. So, yeah, it seems like it'll be a one and fun situation. I was in, I hadn't realized that. I hadn't realized they were honest about that. Oh, man. I was at that press conference. It was in Toronto during All-Star weekend. And he was like, yeah, you know, we just wanted to have something, you know, this is, this is, this is not the best thing that we could do.

But it'll be all right. You know, David Poster knocks in the back, just grinding his molars. Exactly. Drys idols staring at a wall somewhere in Edmondson, like, oh, great. Yeah. So it is funny. I don't think I realize the degree to which they copped. Like, oh, this is a year.

It's the most, it's the most funny. Yeah, this is the phoniest most made for TV event the NHL's ever done. And that's saying something for this league. But it does raise the question. Look, like John Tavares hurting himself in Sochi was a huge, huge deal. And that's kind of the accepted risk. That's one of the reasons the owners are always so reluctant to pause their season and send their players to the Olympics. Is a non-Olympic tournament like this worth the risk?

I mean, Linus O'Mark has played two games since Christmas. He could be playing for Sweden. Should Carolina be concerned about Miko Ranthenon? Should Pittsburgh be concerned about Sidney Crosby? Is this tournament worth the risk Or is Queenie used the smart one here saying, You know what? Nah, I'm good. I think it's worth it because of the novelty factor

and because of the gap that we've seen between, you know, real tournaments like this, fake tournaments like this, whatever you think of the World Cup of hockey, like it counted to some extent. I think what we're seeing now is guys opt in. And I like, Sydney Crosdy absolutely wants to play in this tournament. Like he's serious about it.

Like if he weren't, he would be again. And his team's not in a playoff which makes it a lot easier. It makes the calculus a lot more simple, right? But, man, I wonder after this, after the 2026 Olympics, when it's the World Cup 2028 rolls around and we're having this discussion where it's the off-year, off-brand, NHL-owned and operated tournament that's kind of Fugesey and people are like, does this actually count? I want to see what the conversations are like a few years from now, when the novelty, it

is off when guys aren't going to have gone eight years without playing an tournament looks anything like this i think now that's winning out and i think now for the most part outside of maybe some exceptions some of a couple exceptions i think that's driving the bus and guys are like okay haven't done this in forever i don't care that it's four teams i don't care that it's you know it's four games over the course of of however many days i think that's winning out but man i'd like to see what happens after this and then after another Olympic cycle. And when we're in 2028, having similar discussions about it. Kirkland brand World Cup that we got going on here.

It's store brand, baby. It's great value. Kirkland, whoa, whoa, whoa. Kirkland, the Kirkland stable of products is very, very impressive, my friend. Take a good thing about that. We're talking dollar general here, maybe. Well, it's funny because I wonder if the opposite effect happens. If, you know, 10, 20 years from now, if the World Cup,

has some weight because it's been being played for a long time. And maybe there is some history there. And maybe the World Cup starts becoming like, that's the NHL dream, right? The NHL would love for the Olympics to be downgraded and the World Cup to become either at a level or higher than. And they can start weaning off of the Olympics entirely and just have their own where they make all the money and they have old power.

And it's done in North America. That's what they want. Oh, God. Absolutely. There's no, like, there's no argue like 2026 and 2030. What were the stumbling for? It was that they wanted the I, the I, the I,

HF to pay for travel and pay for insurance and get all this. Like there's, it's not like, we're not talking about revenue splits here. We're not talking about major measurable windfalls to NHL owners. And that's, of course, what they want. Like they're saying,

okay, we're going to mitigate risk. We're not going to take money out of the players' pockets. We're not going to take money out of our own pockets necessarily. Like, that's enough. That's good enough for 20, for 2026 in Italy and 2030 in France.

But yeah, man, moving forward, the roadmap's clear. They want something that's owned and operated and puts money in the pockets of the owners and the NHLPA. And to some, to a very real extent,

I understand it. But there's going to need to be some, you need to keep adding the juice to the World Cup event, right? Like, if it's a replacement by 2032 or 2036, that's one thing. But there's also a roadmap that needs to be followed to get them there.

And I'm interested in it and how that works out in totality. Not just with this event, but how the Olympics play into that, how the 2028 tournament does as well. It's fascinating. It's a long-term play. And, you know, we're only- And I think we'd all rather see this than another. I mean, All-Star weekends are fun.

They are, like, people rag on All-Star Weekend. All-Star Weekends are for the people at All-Star Weekend. It's a fun weekend. It's great for fans. It's great for corporate sponsors. The players actually do have a good time for the most part. The hockey's terrible, but people like All-Star Weekend when you're there. what it's for. But an international tournament every year would be obviously vastly

I think what we hope to see is probably All Star Game World Cup, All Star Game, Olympics, All Star Game World Cup. That's going to be the rotation. Every two years, we have this international break. And I think that's the, that's kind of the best case scenario. But I do want to ask this. Let's dip into the mailbag here. Pat asked us, and this is, I think, the big overarching question we're going to get answered this week. Is it my imagination or is fan enthusiasm for four nations non-existent? The NHL is pushing it. Competing players are too. I read I read ticket sales are me. I think it's meaningless, especially when not every country is represented. I understand if you ignore my question. Well, we're not going to ignore the question because I think

that's the entire question. It is a question. Will fans care about this? And I, I don't know, ESPN has finally started promoting it like ad nauseum the way only ESPN can in the last couple of weeks. But you never heard a word about this for most of the season from ESPN or TNT. And it feels like this is last second push to make people care. I'm not sure it's landing. It's the anecdotal. like there's, well, is, first off, I'm not even sure I should say that. Is it anecdotal? Like, we see, we see the numbers. We know how our stories are doing, are performing or not performing. I, I, but like my friends who love hockey, who watch whatever, 95% of the, of, of Penguins games, even when they're playing crummy hockey

like they are right now. Those are, those are the avid fans who should be locked in and being like, okay, cool. I get to watch Jack Eichol versus, you know, Sydney Crosby or whatever. And I, the conversations I've had with them in, I think people are like, okay, I know this is happening. I don't know what the format is. I'm not sure when the games are. I don't entirely know what the TV info is. So that's the kind of stuff that makes me nervous, is that the people, forget even appealing to a larger audience, right? I think the issue with this, even more so to me, is like the people who are locked in, the avid fans who give, you know, who give a crap about NHL hockey on a day-to-day basis, they're the ones that seem like they're lost as to as to what's going on and when it's taking place.

That's my, that's my concern. And it's purely anecdotal, but like, I am to some extent from a, as a business, as a, I'm not, I'm not sure they've, they've landed the plane when a, when it comes to generating interest in this. Well, that's the real concern. I mean, you have to get the hockey fans. You have to get the people that are just your already built an audience. And I agree.

I don't think people realize how the format of the tournament where it's like a round robin and the teams with the two best records, most points accumulated in the three, two one system. That's the championship game and that's it. That's all it is. Like three round robin games and then there's a championship game. There's not even like a third place game or anything like that. It's a very compact quote unquote tournament here. And I don't think most hockey fans even realize that.

They haven't been educated on this. They are not reading our stories. I can vouch for that. I got one running tomorrow and everybody should read it. I think I have three that run this week. So yeah, I put on my eggs in this basket for the last month's worth of work. I don't know if it's going to work. Yeah, we're not always the brightest.

This is, it's a weird dynamic because we keep talking about the salary gap's going way up. It's $113 million. Revenues are at an all-time high. This is the healthiest the league's ever been. Gary Bentman is going to retire on top, having left it in a great space. And ratings are absolutely in the tank. Winner Classic, nobody watched it. Your average game on TNT or ESP, and nobody is watching.

It's getting destroyed by every other sport. You know, it's really, really bad numbers. And I don't know what to make of that. Like the sport seems like it's in this great spot. We got all these megastars. The game is great. Revenues are up. And nobody cares.

It's still, the league is still a gate league you know it's still so much so much is based on how many tickets are teams are selling and how many people are watching the product in person and you know that brings pros and it brings cons right so I ideally that that certainly wouldn't be the case revenue speaks for itself I guess like you can always lean back and say hey the cap's going up to $112 million in four years or whatever and that's that's all that's all well and good

But yeah, there's something, to me, and I know we're sitting here talking about, can the World Cup build up the juice? And we're like, with 2032, will it be a viable subout for the Olympics and whatever? To me, the larger public response to this show is how far we have to go there, because the Olympics has the juice. That's the takeaway here, is that people still care about the Olympics brand. They care about the Olympics format. They want to be able to watch best on best hockey between Sydney Crosby and Austin Matthews and whoever else.

But they also want to be able to watch it in concert with the pomp and circumstance of the Olympics and the weirdo nationalism stuff that goes on and whatever else. And they want to be able to switch over to downhill skiing and figure skating and curling and whatever else. They want that buffet of like of international options when it comes to that sort of stuff. Because I know I love it. I love as a consumer as a fan. I love watching Olympic stuff, whether it's summer or a winner. And I think a lot of the, a lot of the cachet, you know, that best on best hockey carries comes in that context. And I think we're kind of getting some at least a little bit of proof in the pudding as far as that's concerned right now.

I think what will help is the players seem kind of into this idea. Like they're so, like you mentioned, it's been so long since they've gotten to do this since they've gotten to pull on a team Canada sweater and actually play best on best, that I think that will drive some of the juice. Like if the players are really into this and the hockey's really good, you know, by the end of it, people will tune in for U.S. Canada, whoever it is in the final, and that can have some juice that can carry over into the future here.

But it's going to be a slow burn, and it's not a very long tournament, so you can't really afford a slow burn. And at the end of the day, you know, this is, if it's U.S. Canada in a championship game, and it's on ABC and in the United States, It's at, you know, noon on Sunday or whatever, whatever the scheduling is there, I think, I think all will be well. I think it'll be, I think it'll be mission accomplished just because of where we are in the schedule, right? Super Super Bowl was yesterday. If there's ever a soft spot in the NFL schedule when it comes to the, the complete stranglehold that that sport has on the discourse in the United States, it's right now. It's immediately after, it's immediately after the Super Bowl. So there is like, there's a soft spot in the schedule.

You know, like, people, it's, it's February NBA, post trade deadline, post trade deadline NBA, nobody cares about that. We're ahead of March badness when it comes to tournament time. Like, the schedule is soft enough where you can imagine if this, if, uh, as long as the US and Canada take care of business that. Here comes Finland. Let's, let's talk about the Rasmus for slide an injury, folks. You can, but you can imagine that slide.

in there. And at least for the championship game, people kind of stumbling onto it and being like, all right, cool. But like, I think that's kind of, I think that's where it's capped. I think that's the ceiling on this tournament is for people to be like, hey, sweet, US Canada. It's Sunday. I'm used to being in front of the TV at this point in the day and I got nothing else to watch. Well, this podcast is going to have four nations in the title, so I can't wait to see how many downloads we get. We will be right back to dive into these teams in just a second. All right, we're back and we're happy to welcome Jesse Granger into the podcast. Jesse, Jesse, how you doing. Doing great after a fun night of football last night. How are you guys doing? Yeah, Super Bowl

Sunday in Vegas. That's got to be a good time. Always, always. We hosted the Super Bowl last year. So it's been that was another level. But yeah, it's always a good time. All right. Well, we're talking four nations, which is almost as exciting as a Sunday night in Vegas. Let's go. I want to start. We're going to get into each team here, but I want to start with another one of our mailbag questions. Elusive writes, can you outline a dark horse case for my beloved He said he had a really complicated tax question that I did not have the answer to. Is it tax? Tax.

You wanted to know if players are getting taxed in Quebec and Massachusetts during this tournament. First of all, who cares? Why would that be of any interest to a tax attorney? I don't know. I got to ask Frankie Carrado about that. He's like, he, I think he has like a little accountant hat that he wears and like it's like an adding machine with, you know. Is the little green brim?

A hundred percent. Like he, that dude, we would have Frankie's, Frankie's athlete tax corner every, every 15 minutes of every show of it, if he let us. I need to run that fast them. Well, let's talk about the fins because the fins are, everyone's just like,

oh, the fins are just, they had to pick a fourth team. So they threw the fins in there. But the fins are annoying, right? They are, they are the, this team that does not go away. They always,

it seems like every finish player plays the same style. Like they're capable of like, slipping that switch in their brain to international hockey. And then they just grind teams down. I mean, I can see Finland winning this thing, right? It's a short tournament. You just got to get hot for one moment. And then all of a sudden, Finland's your champion.

They got good center depth, right? They have Barkov, they have Ajo, they have Rupahins, they have Anton Lundell in some capacity. They're going to have other guys who are center capable. Eric Hala can play center, you know, in an international tournament. And then they have Soros. Like that's, I don't know if I would put money on them. But like you have centers you can match up. with basically anybody.

And then you have a goaltender who can steal games. I think that's, I think that makes sense. There's other, there's other positions on the ice, which I'm sure we're going to talk about shortly. I mean, it's tough.

They've, they've lost Miro Heiskenen. They've lost Yanni Hockenpa, Rasmus Restalainen. Like, they are really digging down deep into the pool here for defensemen. So you got to, you got to be a little bit concerned about that.

But the fins, man, there's something about them come tournament time, whether it's the world, whether it's the Olympics. They just have a way about them. I think the, it you're you nailed it in terms of like they flip the switch and they just know how to play

together like they all play the same type of hockey and i think that on a on a tournament like this with we ever played a tournament with this little runway going into it ever like they they're skating twice together and then they're playing a game and i just feel like that that benefits the fins i also think that like you guys mentioned they've got ucsssoros back there they like to play that physical defensive style they may not have the defenseman to play it but the fact that they've got like barcove and hints are both sulky guys they've got enough defensive-minded forwards that can get back on time, can help those gaps for the defensemen, and then you've got Soros behind them. I think they've got all the ingredients to be the most

annoying team that no one wants to play, and they're super hard to score on. So all they need is a couple lucky bounces. They get a couple goals, and they beat you. I think they're absolutely a live dog in this one. We're also talking about a group whose top paired defense looks like it's going to be Nico Mikla and Asa Lindell. So like, we all love Barkov and Ahho and UCSaros, but at the end of the day, man, this is Nicholas Matampollo being added as an injury replacement

for Rosmus for Salindon, right? Like, it's tough. Honest question. Have either of you ever heard of Nicholas Montenpalo until yesterday? He's my favorite player. Yeah, I know everything about him. All right. Well, that's Finland.

Our friends at Bedoules, GM have them at plus 1,000, which isn't that long. I mean, it's, again, short tournament with a small group of teams. Those odds aren't that long. Like, that's a pretty fair bet there for Finland. Let's let's move on to Sweden. Sweden's at plus 425. Goaltending is a concern here, Jesse.

I mean, Markstrom's out. Is it Philip Gustafin? Is Elinus Omerk, who's only played a couple of games since Christmas? How do you see this playing out for Sweden? Yeah, I mean, to me, Olmark is the answer. as long as he feels like he's going well. Like you mentioned, he's coming back from the injury. He hasn't played a ton, but I would go to him.

Are you ready? Are you at the top of your game? If he says, yes, I'm playing him. If not, you can always turn to Gustafson quickly. I know that even one loss can kind of screw you in this tournament. But, yeah, it sucks without having Markstrom. He was playing really well. He was going to be a strength for that team. Now, when you consider the fact that Helibuck and Ottinger and Soros are going to be in the other

nets. It's going to be probably a weakness for this team, but I still think Olmark can get it done if he's playing at the top of his game. I'd feel a lot better about their chances if Mika Sabanajad was playing like Mika Zabanajad from 2022 or whatever. He's been he's been bad enough to make me nervous because he is. He's a he's, he's, I same goes for for Lius Pedersen too. Like going a year ago, you're looking at team Sweden's center depth. You're like cool. Pedersen, no doubt, elite point producer. One C. Unquestionable. Mika's been a jad, power play, weapon, still produces like a top six guy. Joel Erickson, you can throw him to those selky, selky dude, throw him to the wolves,

have him play against whoever. William Carlson, absolutely. And now it's like that group looks a whole lot different when given given the way the NHL seasons played out. So that's that's my that's my concern is like I like the forward group, but I certainly liked it a lot more, you know, four months ago. Jesse, how are you feeling if you're Ottawa right now and Lena's old mark? It might be playing you know, three or four games in a very condensed period of time. And you're in your first real playoff race in a long, long time here. How you feeling? Yeah, they're probably not too pumped about it. Considering especially with his injury history, it just, it just seems like the guy cannot stay healthy.

this year. He's one play away from being out again. It's, yes, if I was Ottawa, I would not be super pumped with this. I would be hoping that Philip Gustafson has some great practices today and tomorrow. It just blows the coaching staff away. Do we think that these coaching staffs are are factoring that in? Are they just going for broke here no matter what with other people's players? Or do you think that they are also thinking, like, I don't want to screw this guy over. I don't want to risk this. Like, how do you balance that if you're a coach of one of these teams? I wonder if the calculus is a little bit different for who is who's Sweden's head coach. It's not not an NHL coach, right?

Yeah, I'm not even sure. I don't think I even know. That's I were, I'm showing, I'm showing myself here because I don't know offhand who the Swedish. Sam Hallam. Okay. Like this isn't a Mike,

this isn't a Mike Sullivan, John Cooper situation where, you know, you have, where you're working within the fraternity of other, of other NHL head coach. right like i i don't i'm not sure i'm not sure uh i'm not sure uh i'm not sure john cooper's going to go out and play drew dowdy for 34 minutes a night just to just to spite the kings right

see i would kind of like that like that would be fun screw the fraternity man i want to see these guys going after each other and put themselves in a position to have the let's let's knock out my rivals here left and right it's really funny it's possible mike sell mike solven's going to do a heel turn and have uh have have matthew kachuk go slash sit on the wrists during these games. They cut off his nose to spite his face. This is what you get.

Then there are other conflicts like we're not conflicts, but like Team Canada, they've got the Blues GM, the Blues goalie coach. I'd be shocked if Jordan Bittington doesn't get exactly what he wants, whether it's playing games or not playing games.

That's right. Yeah, whichever they prefer, I'd be shocked if Biddington doesn't get that, right? with his GM picking the team and his goalie coach is the team Canada goalie coach, I'd be very surprised if Bittington doesn't get the preference. I love how we don't know who the Sweden head coach is, but Jesse knows who's the goalie coach for Team Canada. Dave Alexander.

North American bias, baby. That's what we're about here. I wonder, too, I'm looking at the Swedish defensive group now. I'm wondering with some of the injuries we've seen with the North American team specifically, like, is this the best group of defensemen we're going to see in this tournament? I don't know if it is, but I think you could pretty convincingly, you can make the argument, if you want, because Victor Hedman's been fantastic. Gustav Worsling is good stuff.

He built a reputation for himself over the course of a year where you're just like, oh, yeah, he's good, he's fine. And then the right side, the right side looks good, too. I mean, that's the reason for me to believe in Sweden as a real, uh, maybe not a spoiler necessarily. I think that's selling them short. But I think there's a reason that they're hands down the favorite to win bronze in this is because that is a legit group. You're talking about Jonas Brodine as the seventh,

as a seventh offenseman in that group. Like you're sitting pretty if that's what you're dealing. I love that. You can use Eric Carlson in kind of a sheltered offense only role almost because you've got Eckleckle, you've got Foresling, you've got Rasmus Dahlian, you've got Edmund. You can really kind of cordon off, Carlson to his strengths and not have to deal with any of his weaknesses. And that's a huge weapon.

If you can just unleash Eric Carlson and not worry about the bad that comes with that, that's the kind of thing that could win you a short tournament like this, too. You can say like, okay, we need offense from Elias Pedersen's line. We need offense from Mika Zabanajad's line. Beyond that, we need offense from Eric Carlson. We need him to be the engine for the, for the transition game when he's on the ice. Like, he is the point. He's the point card, like, when he's out there, right?

And I think in some ways, that's what Pittsburgh was hoping what happened when they traded for him a year ago. And that was see how that's worked out. But you can see the logic in it for sure. I think when I look at all those like puck moving defensemen, they all get the puck up so quick. And I think they've got the right forward group to kind of take advantage of that. They've got a ton of speed. Like, Forsberg's obviously awesome in transition. But like, you go down the list of their forwards.

They all can skate really well. And I agree with what you said earlier, that they're not in the best form, especially the top guys, but Borsberg is. And I think that just the speed that those forwards can get going up the ice and then you give just insanely good puck-moving defensemen who are going to hit them with seam passes. I think it's a good mix. All right, we're going to take a real quick break here and then we'll get into USA Canada and finish up our mailback. All right, let's move on to Canada. You may have heard of them. Drew Dowdy is in for Alex Petrangelo.

he's played just six games since returning from injury. There's still no goaltending in Canada. They did not allow us to make the trades that Sean and Julian and I made in our universally beloved and well-received piece on Sunday. I'm getting people coming up to me on the street telling me how much they love that format. He was in their eyes, sir, sir, strong men coming up to me saying, we love the fake trade piece. Just beloved piece of journalism.

How are we feeling about Canada? They are the co-favorants with the United States at plus 150, and that's perfectly reasonable. Boy, they got a lot of firepower up front, and boy, they got a lot of holes in the back. What do you think Drew Dowdy's time on ice averages since he started playing at the end of January? How many minutes per game is he logging right now, do you think?

It's probably in the low 20 still. I saw James Myrtle tweeted out the Canada lines and pairs from the first practice from Chris Johnston, and they've got Dowdy. playing with Shea Theodore. So Shea Theodore, I watch him here in Vegas every day. He's playing the best hockey of his entire life right now. He is in the perfect form. If I was Team Canada, I would be playing Theodore heavy minutes. So if Dowdy's paired with him on day one, I don't expect to see much line shuffling here. I think that whoever they put them with is probably who they're going to play with. That suggests that they are not going to hold back on Dowdy's minutes.

Drew Dowdy is averaging 26 minutes and 57 seconds in ice time per game. He's played six of them since he returned from his from his injury. So yeah, I think they're prepping him to carry a pretty heavy workload over the next week. You know, it's pretty wild. The last time we had like a real tournament, I'm not really qualifying the World Cup in 2016, but in Sochi in the 2014 Olympics, Canada won like every game, won nothing or two nothing. They just choked the life out of teams. and like Carrie Price makes 17 saves for a shutout.

It was the most clinical. It was horrible hockey to watch, but it was spectacular. Like Mike Babcock had them playing just the perfect defensive hockey on that wider ice. They just choke the life out of teams. But Canada is going to win this tournament. They might have to do it like 6-5 every night. And they can. They're capable of it.

When you look at who they have up front, they're capable of pulling that off. But that's how they're going to have to do it. Yeah, right now the top win is McDavid between Reinhart and Marner. And the second line is Mark Stone and Nathan McHenon around Sydney Crosby. So let's see here. Okay. Let's let's let's break down this this first slide. Because we all had like line combos coming into this. I don't know if anybody really saw

McDavid between Reinhart and in Marner coming necessarily. We have the best player in the world. Best player of his generation. Maybe the best playmaking winger of the last 10 or 15 years in Monter. Say what you will about him, but that guy is just with a puck on his stick. He's incredible. And when he wants to, he should get Selky votes. Then you have Sam Reinhart who's settling in as a 55 goal score over the last couple years

and also maybe deserves a Selke as well. That's something about seeing that combination on paper really hammers home just how sick the Canadian forward group. is because again, this is kind of, and the second best player in the world is on the second line, Nathan McKinnon. Right. Yeah, with Sidney Crosby and Mark Stone, who's just a takeaway machine. Very casual, yes. He really settles in. I mean, the third line is Jarvis Point and Marshand. And the fourth line is Hegel, Sorrelli, and Bennett. So this team is this is this came up, this came up in our piece where we were trying to make trades. This, I went out and I traded for, I traded, uh,

Jake Ottinger for Brandon Hagle and Anthony Sorrelli. I couldn't get Seth Jarvis away from Julian, but this is the one thing that Canada has that I feel like maybe the other teams don't, is they have an actual bottom six, guys that can take on that checking role and kill penalties and really play that kind of like energy role that you would normally expect from a third or fourth line. Like Canada has a lineup.

They don't just have a lineup of like 12 superstar forwards. There are superstar forwards, but they have an actual coherent. lineup. And I think that might be what separates them from the other team's offensive. Sorelli, you know, as far as his day job with Tampa Bay, like what he's turned into over the last season or two is a legitimate to see on a good, he's a point per game player. Like that's what, and this is a guy who made his bones a few years ago when the, when the lightning were winning cups as a matchup center who would go out and do dirty work, earn a bunch of money

deserves tons of credit for the role he played on those cup winning teams. But since then, he's leveled up. Like, we should not think of Anthony Sorrelli as the dude who was the 3C on the cup champs in 2021. Because that's not who he is anymore. Like that, like he is a point per game second line center along, not coincidentally, Brandon Hagel a lot of the time. And now he can drop back down for the international game, put on his shutdown center, give me every defensive,

every defensive face-off hat that he wore so well for Tampa there for a while and not miss a beat. Like that's, like that is, he's a luxury item. And he's such a perfect fit there on a, on a fourth line for them. It's tough to, I wish you weren't. I say this as,

as an American. I wish the fit, I wish the fit weren't as good as it is, but here we are. I'm curious what you guys thinks. One of the things that stood out to me when we did the anonymous poll, anonymous player poll a few weeks back and we asked the players,

do you care about four nations? The Canadian players seem to care so much more than the American players. Now, I think the American players that are going to the tournament all care a lot. But do you think that, how do you think that that dynamic affects this? The fact that Canada seems to care about this so much more.

Do you think there's more pressure on this team? Do you think this team might be up early in the game, like more up in the games? What do you think? Well, it's always a double-edged sword, right? Like, they might want it more, but they feel the weight of it more. Like, if Team USA doesn't win this tournament, it's not like, you know, Trump's going to be sending off truth social tweets about it.

Like, nobody's going to care. And if Canada does, it's like a constitutional crisis up there. So there's always that double-edged sword of being a Canadian. Sweden and Finland feel that more than America does, too. Let's be honest. Those are hockey countries, and we are not a hockey country down here. So there is that more pressure. I don't think that makes a difference.

I think once the puck drops, I mean, we see this at the football. freaking three on three all-star tournament. By the time you get to that final game, the guys start trying at the end. There's still competitive athletes, and that does kick in at some point. I feel like with this tournament, with it being best-on-best,

it's going to kick in right away. I don't think that want-to is going to be an issue here. If you're like, I don't, this might not be the right term to you just because all these guys are all-stars, right? But if you're like a rank and file international player for Team Canada,

if you're Brandon Hagle or CMB, Sam Bennett or Travis Sandheim or whatever and you're looking at how much it clearly means to Connor McDavid and Sidney Crosby and Drew Doughty who said openly when he came back he's like yeah I want to be a part of this like like put me in coach like I'm ready to I'm ready to play I wonder how much of an effect that has because Connor McDavid for years year one of the only things that Connor McDavid is outspoken about and in openly publicly will like bang a table about is like I want to play best on best on best in international hockey. It's been

a hobby horse of his for years now. Same goes for Sid. It's important for him to play in these games. So I wonder if you're a guy who's you know, if you're Seth Jarvis, I wonder if you're taking cues from those guys at the top of the lineup who are like, this is important, this means something. We want to be here and we

want to, we are, and we're going to take it seriously. When did best on best become the phrase? Like, when do we start saying that? I was, I, it's like a. It's like power play merchant. It's like one of those things that just came into the vocabulary in the last like handful of years here, I feel like.

I think the light bulb, it definitely was like at a, at some at like the media car wash event where these guys were getting asked about it. And I just found myself, it's like you hear yourself saying and you're like, I hate, I hate that I'm, I hate that I'm using this phrase. Like, why do I keep saying best on best hockey? And now it's three years later and it's happening. Whoever coined that, they should get some kind of like royalties for that because it is the overused expression now. Yeah.

Especially as we approach this tournament. Why could we just call it like good players trying hard? I don't know what. It's on that. I guess it works, but it's weird. Anytime something like that pops up, I just cite Pierre and assume it was his creation. So speaking of best, that's the power play unit, by the way, the team Canada is practicing the power play unit as we speak. Top unit for Team Canada is Sidney Crosby, Connor McDavid, Nathan McKinnon, Kail McCarr, and Sam Reinhart.

Do not take penalties against that team. Sam Reinhart, who's scored 90 power play goals over the last 65 hockey games and is shooting 42%. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely nuts. All right. Well, let's go to the team USA here. also plus 150 like Canada. It's the goaltending, right? I mean, the United States has like five goalies that are better than anything Canada has to offer.

We should have mentioned who's your goalie? Who are you starting if you're team Canada? Is it Bennington or is it Hill? I was in Montemot. I think I would go with Bennington and see how he looks. And like I said, I think shortly. But there's no time for that. There's no seeing how it looks.

If you lose one game, you're not making the championship here. I would still go with Biddington. I think you can still make it. It depends on how the other ones go. You're right. You're all big time if you lose the first game. But I would go with Bittington. He has the athleticism.

I don't know. His style just seems like if we're just throwing guys together, I think Aiden Hill is a very technical blocking goalie who does better when he understands the defensive system in front of him. He can predict where the shots are coming from. Whereas I think in a chaotic situation like this where no one really knows anyone and we're just kind of throwing guys together. I just think Bittington's style might give him the edge.

I think they're both even when it comes to like how good of a goalie they are. So that's where I would give Biddington the edge. But like I said, I would not hesitate to go to Hill quickly if Binnington doesn't look like he's got it. He ended up playing Sweden in their first game is important. I think the fact that you are going to face, you know, all due respect to Finland. But I think Sweden's a much more representative, you know, elite at internet. I almost said best on best again. but I stop.

They're a much more representative elite international team. So, you know, you can learn more about Jordan Bennington based on how he faces Alias Patterson than, you know, whoever our buddy defensive replacement on the Sanders, my favorite player, whose name I already forget. You'll learn more from Canada playing Sweden than Finland. A few weeks ago, I would have said Montembo, but he is really, my fantasy goalie, this here, Aidan Hill and Sam Montevil. I'm not sure I part either of them in right now the way they're going. I might lean Binnington just for that reason. But it's a dilemma because,

you know, the United States, let's move on to them, has the opposite dilemma in theory where you have any number of goalies who would be a great choice for any team. But this is clearly Connor Hullabuck's team. He is the best goalie in the world. He is a legitimate MVP candidate this year. And sorry, Jake Ottenger, your mask looks great. I love the little otter. It's adorable, but you're going to be cheering from the bench. The otter is adorable, but it's not as great as Connor Hellebuck having himself in cargo shorts, catching a bass out of the lake painted on his mask. And this is not like a small, tiny little picture.

This is the entire side of his mask is him in cargo shorts pulling a bass out of the water. Is that America to him? Is that what America means? Because that feels kind of Manitobin to me, frankly. And then he's got the ball eagle on top. It's great. The masks are fantastic. I thought this was hockey.

years. It's not it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's a it's self in your mask. I don't know. There might be a locker room problem with Conner Helibut. Yeah. Yeah. As the as as as the Jets about that one. He's are easy. He's really frustrated. He also has his dog on the mask. I think having your own dog on the mask cancels out having you on the mask like it's good now. The cargo shorts are the deal breaker. Let's let's let's let's be realistic here. That's what. Hey, that's what makes it funny and cool. That's it makes it the best. Yeah. I mean, I am pro cargo shorts. I remember

Back when I had my kids were babies, I didn't even need a diaper bag, man. You just use the cargo shorts appropriately and it's the best thing in the world. I'm bumping up against 40 now here, brother. Like cargo, like cargo shorts. Bumping up. 39. Keep in my rearview mirror now. Whatever.

I'm hurtling towards 45 over here. All about comfort and functionality. Let's go. I am a Midwest suburban dad. I am all cargo short. I am my DNA is cargo shorts. So Team USA, not a lot of weaknesses here. Quinn Hughes, like we talked about at the top of the show, huge loss.

But if any team can have been. absorb the loss of their number one defender. It's Team USA because they got like five number one defenders. I wonder what that power play unit is going to look like. They're not practicing right now. So we don't have the benefit of being able to say like, oh, whoa, look at the top line for America. Look at look at the power play unit. I think it is, I'll be interested to see who takes over.

You assume it's Fox, but I don't know. It's interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's going to be a good spot there too. I mean, Matthews, Kyle Connor, Jack Hughes, and. and maybe Kachuk in front of the net. It's got to be a chuck in front. Yeah. Yeah.

I love Kyle Connard's involvement with his team. I think, I mean, he leads, last I checked, he's leading Americans in goals this year, which is, which is fun. But also he made it, he made it to the national team through a little bit. Like, he didn't, he didn't, he wasn't part of the, of the development team. He ended up playing, playing in the USHL and going to Michigan for a year, killed it, obviously, and was it was a first round. but he was in the NHL when he was 19, despite not being part of the development program in Ann Arbor. So the fact that he's like kind of used that, you know, alternative route to turn into a real contributor for this group. I think it's, I think it's fun. It's one of those narrative things

that I'm kind of tracking going into this tournament is, is how he looks and how he produces. He's my pick to score the most goals in the tournament for anyone. I love it. I love that. I think that you look at U.S. is for, I think Canada has more shooting options amongst their elite forwards. Whereas when I look at the top U.S. forwards, like Ikel, pass first guy, Hughes, past first guy. Matthews is obviously a shooter. But I just think Connor is going to get a ton of looks and the dude's got an insane release on his wrist shot. I just think he's going to score a bunch of goals. He was my pick to lead the whole tournament of any team to score. I love it. Well, let's use that to springboard into a couple of mailbag questions here because Michael Alper asks,

I know these teams of so many stars, but who is your underrated under the radar MVP pick for each squad. Kyle Connor, it sounds like a perfect example of that. What about some other guys and some other teams that you might see? Which team do you are? For me, I'm looking at Brandon Hagel. I think Brandon Hagel, I mean, what's under the radar? Brandon Hagel's a star in this league, but when you're on a team

with McDavid and McKinnon and all these guys, Brandon Hagel's under the radar. That's a kind of guy who's going to do a little of everything. He can score in bunches. I feel like that's in a short tournament. He could have a couple of big games. He could sneak out with that thing. I like Adrian Kempi on Sweden a bit.

Like I, if we're really trying to pick under the radar, you know, he's, we'll see who his center is. I think maybe he could end up playing with it with Samanajad. I think you want to try to get him on a, on a top six line. He's been great for the Kings this season. Him, Kopatar, they've been pretty lethal so far. He's, he's, you know, Kempi's a shooter. And he's a guy if he gets hot in a tournament like this, he could pop. He's a Kyle Connor sort of guy where he's got that shot that's pretty nasty.

And when goals come, they tend to come in bunches. So I like him as kind of an under the radar guy for Sweden. I got laughed at for acquiring him in that trade that McIndoo forced upon me that didn't want to make. But Patrick Linae is the kind of guy where he could score like two power play goals in three different games. All of a sudden Finland won this thing and he's the MVP. Like he is all or nothing. But when he's all, he is unbelievably hot. So that's kind of guy that can sneak away too.

Maybe that's the hack for Finland. And plays on a team that doesn't need many goals, right? Like, they're not going to win these games with six goals. So if you only need a couple, he can do that. And you win a couple games and suddenly Linae's in the conversation. I think he could absolutely win MVP. Like, if Finland's its way to a gold, I think Lina is in there. Do we have?

I guess Kyle Conner's the, that will, he'll be, he'll be our group pick for the U.S. roster. I like that one a lot. Scott Kennedy, this question is right up your alley here, Jesse. If the Russians had been allowed to field a team and they were only able to roster three goalies, who would you leave off? Vasilevsky, Schisturkin, Serochen, Babrovsky. That is such a tough question. They're the only country that's got better goaltending and deeper goaltending in the U.S.

It's ridiculous. I mean, I would leave Bobrovsky off because all four are studs and three of them are playing really well right now. You look like Schisturkin's been on fire. He's the biggest reason the Rangers are back kind of in that race after looking like they were left for dead. Sorokin has got the Islanders on a crazy run right now. He's been great. And Vasilowski is quietly up to like, I think, fifth in the league in safe percentage.

I don't think we've noticed how well. Vaselovsky's stats weren't great to start the year. He's been on fire the last month or so. So, yeah, four really good goalies. I'll just pick the three that are in form at the moment because they're also good. I'd leave Bob off. Well, Bob's just reached that point in his career where he knows he doesn't have to try that hard in the regular season. And he flips that switch in the playoffs.

And that's a beautiful place to be as a veteran in the NHL. Totally agree with you guys. Totally agree with you guys. Bob would be the guy that I left off. But Florida, as a group, seems like they've flipped a switch. And part of that's because he's playing better. He's five and one his last six games, 937, say a percentage. Like he had been mediocre before that, right?

And he's starting to look more. like himself. That's how insane the Russian goleys are. He's five and one with a 937 and I'm like, well, that's the cold Russian goalie. 937 over the last month, basically. And he won a, and he won a cup last year. And we're like, sorry, sorry, dude. Better luck down the road. At the risk of starting a war here between Gentile and fanatics. I'm going to take it. Here's G-Bubs. Which four nations player jersey would you buy and why? And for me, this is the easiest. It's Finland and it's not even close. The dark blue with the light. light blue, the Swomi.

I don't like any of the other jerseys. I really like Finland's. Man, I typically like Sweden's. I like, I like the Trey Kona look. I like the, I like the kits typically. Something about the about these ones is leave me a little cold. I think it's because they, they went with a really, really dark blue to the point where it looks black.

Like I like the, I like the lighter blue juxtaposition on the Swedish jerseys. typically. So the answer has to be the United States for me. I'm leaning all the way into the gimmick. Give me a, uh, give me a JT. Miller, a JT. Miller American Jersey. Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh product. Uh, famously interesting fellow. I'll take it. What do you got, Jesse? I'll take it Connor Hela Buck jersey. Best goal in the world. I'm American. I'll lean into that as well. I do think that visually the Swedish jerseys are the best. And I agree with Sean that they're not as good as they usually are. But I typically in most international tournaments, think Sweden's jerseys look the best. But I'll take the best American goalie on the planet.

Most people will tell you I have no credibility as is, but the three things that always caused me to lose my credibility in this hockey world that I live in, I think Dunkin' Donuts is better than Tim Hortons. I think in and out is absolute trash garbage food. It's fighting words. Absolutely horrible food. It's what, it's shake, shack, but like horrible. And I think the Sweden jerseys are hideous. I've always just like the yellow. It's too yellow. It's just too much.

And the three crowns are too spread out far apart. Like they don't like I don't. Something about it. It's never worked for me. I've always been on the Finland side of that hockey war and I'm never going to change. Sorry. I can't believe you don't like in and out. Have you gotten your fries animal style?

I've tried everything I'm supposed to try. It's bad. The fries at in and out are the worst, among the worst food ever created. Regular. They're not themselves with just ketchup. They're not. The fact that people will wait in line for 45 minutes for that food is just mind-wise.

Go to Wendy's, dude. It's better. All right. All right. That's enough out of you guys. Thanks for listening to the athletic hockey show. Please leave us a five-star rating and review if you're enjoying the show. Sean Gentile will be right back in the chair on Wednesday with Sean McIndoe and Frankie Corado.

For the next episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. We hope you enjoy the Four Nations, but more than that, we hope you actually read our stories of the Four Nations. See you next time.