The Athletic Hockey Show - Who wins the Oilers-Panthers Stanley Cup rematch?

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

We officially have a Stanley Cup Final rematch between Connor McDavid’s Edmonton Oilers and the defending champion Florida Panthers. Max and Laz break down the series and discuss which players have the most to prove this time around. Plus, thoughts on Pete DeBoer throwing Jake Oettinger under the bus and The Athletic’s own Rob Rossi joins the show to talk about the last Stanley Cup Final rematch between the Red Wings and Penguins in 2009.Hosts: Max Bultman and Mark LazerusWith: Rob RossiExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Mark Lazarus for another episode of the athletic hockey show. And Laz, we got the rematch. What do you, what I tell you, when you get the Edmonton Oilers and the Florida Panthers round two, we got seven games last year. What's the first thing that comes to mind? Those poor writers who have to travel across the continent again. Give me the second thing that comes to mind. Sorry, I always think of the writers first.

I always come back to when you have a team that's in the final for the third straight year, like the Panthers are now, like Tampa was a couple of years back, you know, the Blackhawks had a run where they had three straight, where they played 11 series, I'm always wondering what's left in the tank. But when I look at these Florida Panthers, they really haven't had to work that hard in these playoffs. They've had some short series. They've had a lot of rest. This might be the three-time finalists best chance to just go out.

out there and dominate still because I think the Florida Panthers are sitting pretty right now. And that's no slag on the Oilers. But like I look at the Panthers and like the stars continue to align for them. In some ways. And I think getting the Edmonton Oilers without Zach Hyman is certainly a huge edge to the Panthers. But I will say I don't think they've seen anything quite like Connor McDavid and Leon Drysidal in these playoffs. I mean they played the Leafs.

The star studded Leafs. The Leafs pushed them. Those stars are not these stars. I mean Leon Drysidal is a playoff proven guy. Connor McDavid, whether you agree with it or not, I happen to not, but he at least deserved consideration for the cons to my 31 last year because he has proven just how deadly he is in the playoffs. They have not seen anything like that on this run.

Well, not on this run, no, but they managed it last year. And, you know, McDavid was having one of the all-time great post seasons last year. And you're right, Drysidele just a couple of years ago. Remember on like one leg was having this incredible postseason. These guys are two of the three or four best players in the, world. There's no denying that. And this Oilers team, it's deeper than it was last year. It's better than it was last year. Pete DeBorce said that after the stars got spanked in five games. This team's just better than they were last year. But I think Florida is better too.

I think Florida is, and I just, Florida matches up with Edmonton favorably, in my opinion. Like, you look at what the Dallas stars are, right? The Oilers just had their way with the Dallas stars. A team that a lot of us, myself included, thought could win the cup this year. But Dallas is like the antithesis of what Florida is. Look at what. Look what happened with Rupé Hens, right? Darnell Ners literally breaks the guy's foot with a dirty slash far behind the play and the stars do not do anything to them. And then the next game, Evan Bouchard hits him in the exact same spot far behind the play. And what do the Dallas stars do? Absolutely nothing. Try that on the Florida Panthers. I dare you. I'd see what happens

if you do that to the Florida Panthers. The response is different. The physicality is different. the experience is different. We know that, you know, the star's depth scores all failed them in these playoffs. The Panthers' depth scores are scoring. Cardover Hayge, it looks like Carter of Rehagie again. Sam Bennett is having, he's out of his mind right now. I just look at the Panthers and I see that's the worst possible matchup for the Oilers.

I just, it's going to be a great series. I will not be shocked if Edmonton wins, but, you know, I look at it in my money's on the Panthers still. And you didn't even mention the most dangerous of the depth, is their third line. Luster Rinen and Del Marchand has arguably been the most important line in the playoffs for any team. That is what is giving them this insane edge. I go back to that Leaf series, that's the reason that Florida won that series at the end of the day. I mean, everyone has a role, right? You have Alexander Barkov, the best defensive center in hockey. He's going to do his job.

He's going to have some games where he takes McDavid out of it. And someone's going to have to come up with that for the Edmonton Oilers. On the Panthers side, what are you going to do? Yeah, you can take the Barkoff line out of it. You can take the Sam Bennett line out of it. of it. The Marsha and Lundell line is going to get you. And that is the biggest, that's my biggest fear if I'm Edmonton is how do we shut down that line? And Edmonton doesn't have that. Like, Yanmark is, he's a nice player who's proven to be a very good player performer, but it's, it's not at the same level. And like, you know, was Victor Arvinson's going to be on that line? Connor Brown's still dealing with some injury. We don't know what's going on there. The Hyman

injury just, it really changes the entire complexion of the Edmonton lineup. And I worry that, you know, we're going to talk a little later with Rob Rossi about the 2000. 2009 final the last time we had a rematch like this. He talks about the role that Chris Kunitz played, just trying to destroy Nick Lindstrom on a daily basis. Well, that was Zach Hyman's job in these playoffs. He's been kind of like, you know, for a guy who scored 50-something goals last year,

he's just been crushing people, hitting people, throughout every series on McDavid's wing, and he's not there now. And Corey Perry can't do that. He's not fast enough to go around just, you know, knocking guys heads off. So it's a different team without Zach Hyman. It's not as deep.

not as physical, and I think that all plays into Florida's hands. Yeah, I think Florida has a very good shot at this, but I do think Edmonton has started to build up. And we've seen them in regular seasons, certainly, and in past playoffs, but in regular seasons, they go through these slumps and you go, what's wrong with the Oilers? And then they win like 16 out of 20. And you go, oh, how is anyone stopping them? Right now, that is the feel that they have to them. And a lot of it is McDavid and Drysettle, but it is not just those guys.

That's the thing I've been most impressed about with the Oilers, both of these last two playoff runs, is how they have deepened themselves and where they get their contributions from. I think Ryan Nugent Hopkins has been excellent. I think Cory Perry always finds a way to be impactful in these games. Losing Hyman, it really does hurt. Connor Brown, another guy who's, I think, been quietly really good in these playoffs and he's been a little banged up here. We'll see how that all shakes out.

I think Edmonton has that feel to them right now that is you can try, but they're going to find a way. And they've had that feeling since midway through the L.A. series to me. Well, that's the thing. They've been that way since they looked awful after those first two games that the Kings were like, they're dead. They're toast. Like, none of us picked Edmonton even win that series going into it.

And they do have that ability to turn it on. But when you run up against a team like Florida, that's just so poised and sure of itself and just has such an unwavering belief that what they do works, they're not going to be like, oh, no, it's the Edmonton Oilers. I'm scared. They're just going to take it head on and do what they do. And when it comes down to it, man, I just, Stuart Skinner has been great since he's returned, right? Since he took the net back from Calvin Pickard,

he's been legitimately great. But do you trust him more than to trust Sergey Bobrovsky in this final? I don't. No, not remotely. I do think the most important thing that could have happened for the Oilers is that they won that game, that last game against Dallas game five, with Stewart Skinner being incredibly average, right? I mean, he gave up three goals on 17 shots.

I think that's a big confidence boost for a goalie to know that not every time you're off. It doesn't doom your team, right? But that said, you're right. The goaltending edge has to favor the Florida Panthers. And while the Oilers have the stars, they have the scorers that I think you're more afraid of. The Panthers have more of them, and they have way better guy in that to stop them. So that is, that's edge Florida in that way, for sure. So Florida has the experience edge. It's got the depth edge. It's got the physicality edge. It's got the goaltending edge. I don't know. I think I'm lean in Florida here is all I'm I'm saying. I think it's fair. But I will say, man, you are all over.

Dallas and Edmonton just took apart Dallas. And I think that's got to buy them a little bit of love from you. No, I was very impressed with the Oilers in this series. And, you know, a lot of it was self-inflicted by Dallas, but a lot of it was, you know, just Edmonton was rattling them, like the way they were playing. And Edmonton got physical. They're not, they're not the softest team out there. They can go out and hit people now. It's not like they've been in the past. It's a really, really good team. You don't make it to two straight Stanley Cup finals without being a really, really good team. But the Panthers are proving to be one of those, and I hate this term, but like a generational team now. Like this is a team we're going to be talking about in 20, 30 years. You know, it would be like the 70s

Canadians and the 80s Islanders and the 90s Red Wings and the 2000s penguins, the 2010s Blackhawks and the 2020s Florida Panthers. Like that's what this team is. Like they're not going anywhere anytime soon with all the advantages they have and everybody wants to play for them. They're going to be contending for cups for a long time here. And I feel like they just kind of reach. this different level now where I just, I can't find myself picking against them anymore. I'll take debate. You call them generational. Does that mean if they win, you're going to let me call them a dynasty for going to three straight, Stanley Cops, and winning two? No. No. If they win next year also, then you can call them a dynasty. You have to win three in a row, not contend for three in a row.

You've got to win three in a row. Eastern Conference Dynasty? I don't know if that really counts the same. No, it doesn't. I will not allow it. Everyone will call on that and I will be mad and I will get pedantic on Twitter and I will be right and everyone else will be wrong. Your point is very good. This team has figured out how to win hockey games and I know that's so cliche, but you just, it's impossible to watch them and not reach that conclusion, frankly. Not just win playoff hockey games.

How to win playoff hockey series? I mean, there's the iconic clip of Maurice, right, telling them, don't you're up. don't try to make plays right now pound their D and make them feel it at the end of this series. There's something to that, right? It's the, I don't know if you can call something that brutal, romantic, but it does feel that way to me about hockey. It's old school, right? It's how we all want to see it. The last team that we had in the NHL that played this way successfully was the early 2010's Kings, right?

They were heavy and they would beat you up. And I just, you know, Scott Powers, Eric Stevens, I just did an oral history of the Kings, the Blackhawks conference final. talking about the physicality of it. And I wrote the story about how those Kings teams didn't care about the regular season either, right? Like these Panthers were a five seed, I think, and the Oilers were a six seed, and who cares because they're so good, it doesn't matter, you reach that point. Those Kings teams, I think it was Dustin Brown. I asked a dumb question knowing it was a dumb question, but I wanted the answer.

And I asked him basically like, why don't you play like this during the regular season? You're so dominant in the playoffs. And he looked at me, he's like, you can't do this for 82 games. you wouldn't survive. Like you could barely do it for two months. So you have to save it all for the playoffs. And that's kind of where we're at with these Florida Panthers where, you know, they coast for long stretches of the regular season because they know that seeding doesn't

matter. Home ice doesn't matter. Who your opponent in the first round is doesn't matter. What they do works and they can flip that switch in the playoffs and they have flipped it. And they have looked more impressive this year than even the last two. They look terrifying. I mean, the way they took apart Tampa. Tampa was my cup pick.

They took them apart like it. was nothing. And that has stuck with me. Edmonton has a feel to me, like they just have this kind of team of destiny vibe. I don't know what that is. For whatever it's worth, our friends at BEDMGM do have the Oilers as the minus 125 favorite Panthers plus 105. I got to say part of me thinks that's probably just because everyone wants to bet on Edmonton and they're they're hedging for some liabilities there, but they're calling it at least a coin flip. And I think that's the Stanley Cup final we deserve. I can see either of these teams winning it in really any length. I mean, that's the crazy part about this.

Yeah, I mean, that's hockey for you, but especially when you have two great teams like this. And look, the Oilers have the ultimate X factor, right? They've got Connor freaking McDavid. And then I got another guy in Leon Drysettle. Like they can just single-handedly, double-handedly win games on their own. They can just do what Miko Ranton did in the first round against Colorado. Like we were all like, oh my God, Miko Ratton.

And we can't McDavid does that every night. And we barely bat an eyelash. He scores three, four, five points a night. And we don't even think about it. He can just do that. And you see the goal he scored in the clincher in game five. He's just like he had Rupert Hins draped all over him, playing perfect defense and still score like it was nothing.

There's not, you know, nobody on the Florida Panthers can do that. As great as Kachuk is, as great as Barcov is, as great as, you know, Reinhard is. They don't have guys that can do that. And for that reason alone, the Oilers can win, let alone all the other things that they're good at. And they are very good at a lot of things. And again, Stuart Skinner, you know, game five aside, has looked terrific, like really, really good. Like, this is what you get with Stuart Skinner.

He's either the best goalie in the world or he's god-awful. And right now, he's trending towards the former, which is really good news for the Oilers. So, look, nobody's going to be shocked if the Oilers win the Stanley Cup here. Other than the fact that a Canadian team actually wins the Stanley Cup, that would be kind of shocking. But I just, I can't bring myself to pick them because I know what Florida is capable of, and they've proven it to me.

All right, we are back, Laz. And before we get to Rob, I do want to ask you, who has the most approve in this series? I guess answer number one's easy, but I'll let you have it anyway. I mean, it's Connor McDavid, right? He's got to win his Stanley Cup. He's the greatest player we've ever seen,

but he's got to win a Stanley Cup to validate everything, right? Oh, yeah, and I think he will. Like, I don't think it has to be this year necessarily, and so maybe that colors it. I think it's coming. I think very clearly the trajectory of the Oilers, the trajectory of McDavid, it's going to happen.

Like, they are checking every box, but you never know for sure, and you can't take for granted how close they were last year and how close they are now. That's part of the reason that I think they will get it done is I think they know that. But it's there for sure. I think it's going to happen for him, but it's in the back of everyone's mind. Like, you never know.

For a decade now. He's in his late 20s. Like, there are people talking this year that he's already, you know, peaked because his numbers were a little down this year. Like, there's already people out of writing him off as like, a has been almost. It's all so absurd. But remember how long it took Ovechkin to get that cup?

Yeah, there's a point total peak. and then there's like a, you know, winning peak and all that. And I think those are two different things, frankly. Right. And the window is still wide open for him. But like you said, it's really hard to get here. The fact that they got here two years in a row, if he misses this one, you know, not everybody gets two cracks at it.

So he's got to, he, that, you know that's weighing on him. You saw it in those clips on the Amazon show about the way he was screaming at his team, how desperate he is for this. He needs this. He wants us. They all do. But he feels it more than most because he knows, he already knows his place in league history. And you don't want to be Dan Marino, right?

You want to be the guy who wins it. He is the cons my favorite right now, per our friends at BetMGM. It's even money plus 100. But I think that would actually be really validating for him, right? Like not only you, obviously, you win the Stanley Cup. That satisfies everything. But I think it makes that other trophy that he's got sitting at home. Just he probably gets a lot happier looking at the two of those things when they're

next to each other. And he knows he got one in a win too, right? Yeah, like every time he looks at that cons smite from last year to remind her that he didn't actually win. but if you go and you win the cup and you win a consmite in a win, then it's like, hey, look how good I am. I even want it as a loser.

Completely changes it. All right, so there's no doubt it's McDavid number one. Who would be your next player in this series with the most to prove? The most to prove, it's... Or the most to gain. I mean, you could take it a little different way. Well, the most to gain is it's Sam Bennett, right?

I mean, Sam Bennett already, if he wants to leave Florida, he will get so overpaid by somebody that because Sam Bennett in Florida as a second line center, incredible player. Sam Bennett making $10 or $11 million as your number one center, I don't think he's going to be that good at that. Like that's not a role for him necessarily,

especially on a very different flavor team. But if Sam Bennett goes out there, he's the leading score with 10 goals in these playoffs. He could win the cons night. He goes out there, pops a couple of game winning goals in this series. He's going to make $12 million this summer. No. If he wants it.

If he actually gets to UFA, he probably won't, he'll probably resign in Florida. Florida. But if he wanted to, in a very weak field with his Mitch Martiner and then a huge drop off, he's the next Beck's thing. He could get $11, $12 million. No. The 10 number that's out there already feels. We are entering drunken sailor territory. The way the cap is going up, we are entering the drunken sailor years of yesteryear, man. It's going to happen. You're going to pay him like Miko Ratman?

I'm not. Some idiot's going to. I think what we in the media through his playoffs done is we've added a million in an A.AV per round for Sam Bennett throughout these things, right? It started like he's going to get eight. And by the middle of last round, it's he's going to get 10. Now you're going to give it. You're ready to have someone give him 12. I don't know. This guy goes out and scores 13, 14 goals in a cup run with the physical style he brings. Like, oh my God, some some GM from the old days is going to go nuts on that. I don't doubt that he's going to get a big number. But my thing with all this is like, why are we adding to it as it goes? No one's surprised by this. Maybe you're surprised to see. see him as the leading goal scorer, but this is who this guy is.

He plays tough. You know that he's so good in these games. He's been a playoff producer since before he even got to Florida. Yeah, but the thing is, he doesn't score like this in the regular season, right? He's a 20, 25, maybe, I think at 28 once was his career high. He's not like a big time goal score, but we see this every year in the playoffs. There are guys that are well suited to score in the postseason, and he's one of them. The guy is money.

And money gets your money, man. I said this on another show. Sam Bennett, I think, is worth $10 million to the Florida Panthers because they know that they're playing a hundred games a year or more. And so he's not worth $10 million in games one through 82, but he delivers a lot of the value in games 83 on. So if you know you're going to be in game 83 on, you can totally justify giving this guy a huge check. The funny thing is, Florida is not going to have to do it. If they can keep him, they're probably keeping him cheaper than anybody else. else could. And I think they're the team who's most worth, who can most justify giving him

$10 million. Right. It's like you. You know, you're like an $8 million beat writer, but you get 10 million because of the podcasting skills, man. That's why you get that $10 million contract from the athletic that we all know about. Uh-oh, I got to have a talk with my agent if that's what you're getting. First, I might need to get an agent, and then I'm going to need to have a talk with him about it. There is one more guy I wanted to bring up on this topic, though, Laz. And I don't know that it's necessarily something to prove. I don't even necessarily know that it's something to gain. it might be something to keep. And that's Stuart Skinner

because I do think if he has a really rough go in this last round, it's going to be really noisy around whether goaltending is the area that's holding the Oilers back and whether they need to go make some big push and basically replace him. Well, yeah, he lost the job earlier in this postseason. He lost it to Calvin Pickard, who's not exactly, you know, a 1B-type goalie.

He's a pure backup goalie in this league. He lost it. The only reason he got it back was because Pickard got hurt. Like he didn't really like earn his job back. He got it back by default. And the entire city of Edmonton was kind of ready to write him off after a mediocre regular season and an abysmal postseason. And now, you know, let's build the statue next to Gretzky outside the

outside of Rogers place for the guy because he's been playing so well lately. But yeah, if he goes out and he falls flat on his face and he gives up four or five goals a game, if he just fails here, he might not be the Edmonton Oilers starting goaling next year because that'll be two years in a row that you weren't able to win the cup with him in an ideal situation and you might need to go find somebody else. Now, the goalie market's actually not that appealing, so maybe that eases the threat. But hey, I don't know, maybe the Edmonton Oilers watch TV and they're going to place a call down to Dallas and see what's going on with Jake Ottinger right now.

Jake Ottinger, man, when Pete DeBore pulled him, it was the first thing I thought it was was in Miracle, you know, the Disney movie about the Miracle on Ice, when Kurt Russell tells the team, you just put the best goalie on the world on the best. boys. And I'm like, is this kind of a similar where the coach is just freaking out because he's not used to this? But then after the game, when he says, hey, look, he's lost six to seven or seven of eight to Edmonton, he basically just throws his guy under the bus and said he's as big a reason as any that we're losing to this team. Like my jaw hit them. I couldn't run to my computer. I almost left the press conference in the middle of it to go run to the computer and start the column. Like, I can't believe

whether you, even if you believe that, you're not supposed to say that as a coach. This is the guy that got you to the conference finals because nobody was scoring. Jake Ottinger more than Miko Renton and even was the reason they were there. And to throw them under the bus like that was, holy crap.

I'm kind of two minds on this because on one hand, you're right. You cannot say this about your goalie and expect that, you know, nobody's going to notice or it's not going to become this huge firestorm. Maybe he weighed that. Maybe he's okay with it.

But we've all. all seen the trends on NHL coaching. If you're a head coach, you're not winning the battle against franchise goalie for longevity. If you guys have a feud, it's you out the door. And I think everyone pretty much sees that. On the other hand, I really don't like hammering people when they give honest answers. And the answer does correspond to the action. So honestly, I think you have to either pick a side. You have to hate pulling him. And if you hate pulling him, then you can criticize away. Or you have to just kind of eat it. Because if it was the right call to pull I don't have a problem with Pete DeBore saying why.

No, you're right. We always criticize these guys for not being honest with us, and then they're honest with us, and we jump down the throat. But I do have a problem with the pulling of him. It was a power play goal, like point blank shot, and then a breakaway. Like, it wasn't like he gave up two softies there, right? It felt like a panic move, an absolute panic move by Pete DeBore to throw Casey

to Smith, who hadn't played over a month in there in that situation. And it didn't work because Casey DeSmith immediately gave up a soft goal to Jeff Skinner. I'm with you. I think ultimately you have to be sober-minded enough to know, okay, Ottinger maybe hasn't been up to his standard. Whatever I'm going to get from is probably still a little bit better than I'm going to get from my backup, just knowing what he's been for me throughout these playoffs. The way he did it was embarrassing to the guy too because he calls the board called time out, has his time. He's yelling at everybody. And then as Ottinger is skating back to the net, he yells at him to come back. Like that's, he humiliated his goalie. He didn't just like sit him.

He humiliated them. And look, Pete DeBoer, I think Pete DeBoer is an outstanding coach. Like the amount of trips he's made to the second and third round in his career, it's extraordinary. Like very few guys get this much out of their teams year after year after year. But his history with goaltending. Yep. It's not great.

You know, we all remember the sword in the back of Mark Andre Fleury, right? When he was in Vegas, like there's a long history of Pete DeBore kind of feuding with his goaltender. And I'm not. sure that's a winning. Maybe that's why he has a new job every three or four years. Like for a guy who's won as much as he has, he should not have been inspired as often as he has. And yet here he is. I just, boy, it was honest or not, it was a huge, huge thing to do as a coach to first yank him and then chuck him under the bus like that.

Well, and that's what I mean, and that's why I feel comfortable with us criticizing it because I think we both think it wasn't the right call to pull him. So at that point, you can criticize the reasoning because we didn't like the reasoning. It's also ridiculous to lay any of this at Ottinger's feet, right? You know, Matt Duchayne didn't score, and Tyler Sagan wasn't scoring, and Jason Robertson didn't start scoring until it was too late. Miko Randon didn't score in the last seven or eight games. He had this amazing five-game spurt, but he was ice cold before that and ice cold after that. Wyatt Johnson was like a minus 17 in a playoff run.

Like every single forward was at fault in some way here. You know, Mikhail Granlin had the big hat trick, and he didn't do anything any other game. You know, this whole team is built on this incredible, depth and nearly every forward they had failed. And then you're going to go and say, it was the goalie's fault. I just, I don't buy it. No, I don't either. And I think, you know, the explanation, six of the last seven elimination games or whatever

that, or six of the last seven games against. Against the oilers. This has been the result, right? I mean, hey, those are whole team games. And maybe he hasn't been at his best. But I don't think most goalies are at their best against those guys. And the oily, exactly. These are the Oilers.

They do this to goleys. 100%. It's going to be interesting. All right. Let's take a break right there. we're going to come back with Rob Rossi, and he is going to regale us with Tales of the last rematch in a Stanley Cup fight. All right, we are back, and we are joined now by the athletics, Rob Rossi.

And Rob, we wanted to have you on for a pretty specific reason here. As we talk about this rematch, you covered the last Stanley Cup final rematch in depth. And I wanted to know when you think about what a Stanley Cup rematch entails for both of these teams, what do you think they can draw from, I mean, obviously the Oilers are hoping to be the Penguins. They are the team that did come back and defeat the team that, you know, broke their heart the year before. Yeah, I mean, I think the thing, there's so many things like little things that stand out about that series to me. I remember going into the media day, which wasn't as grand as it is now. And the Red Wings were just so sort of cool, calm and collected.

and I remember the penguins were just full of piss and vinegar. They wanted this. And I remember talking to Brooks Orpank. And I remember, like, he had re-signed with the penguins that summer. And I said, you know, what are you thinking? And he goes, there's a guy over there that chose them over us. And I want to make sure he's wrong. Marion Hosa.

And it was about Marion Hosa. And I remember talking to Brooks on the ice after, and I'm like, what are you thinking right now? And it was sort of the question. It was first time I covered a cup champion. So I was just sort of asking everybody like, what's going through your head? I remember when I got the Brooks? You remember what I told you before the series? I'm like, yeah, he goes, this is why I came back here.

And it was just so like they, there was such a different vibe from the teams. And that was a unique series that they started with games on consecutive nights and Memorial Day weekend. the Red Wings beat the Blackhawks. The Blackhawks had kind of like arrived the year early in their run. And the Red Wings, I think that series went six games. Yeah. Because it didn't go seven, they were able to start on Memorial Day weekend on Sunday night, Monday night back to back. And I remember talking to Dan Balsma about that because the penguins had swept the hurricanes.

And it was like one of those three game sweeps. Like by the end of the third game, it was like, okay, this is over. And I remember talking to Dan Balsma. Like, you know, and of course, Mike Tarian had been to coach Deer before it. He said to Dan, I said, like, what do you think this year's different? He goes, I think the mistake Mike made last year was putting a lot on Sid's shoulders. He said, if we win this series, it's going to be long. Sid's going to skate Zetterberg and Datzook into submission,

and Stahl and Malkin are going to have to be our best players. And that's exactly what happened as that series went on. But the Penguins lost the first two games in Detroit. And again, back-to-back, nights and you're like, is this series over before it started? Because I was really looking forward to it. And those are the two worst games of the series. The rest, well, game five is kind of a cluster. But the games in Pittsburgh were all great. And the game seven in Detroit was great. And so I'm in the visiting locker room at the Joe Lewis Arena after game two.

And Sid's just sitting there. Siddy Crosby's just sitting there after the media's done. And I was always hanging around just to see, I was working for a newspaper back then, just to see I could get some little different nugget to, you know, stand out. You know, back then we had to, well, as I'll remember this, you had to write running game stories. And when it was in the, when you were in the final, the final would start at like 820. So like you had to write a running game story, but you also had to have like a feature story filed for the early editions and all this. So you had to have three running gamers. You had to have if the penguins win, if the penguins lose and if this game ends too late for this edition. Yes. Right. Exactly. So it's like, but

But the nice thing about that was you had a little more time to gather in the room. So I'm in the room after game two. Sid, Sidney's just sitting there and he's sitting in the, if you walk into the room, it's the far, like you're staring right at the where you can see like the lounge area for the players. And Sid's just sitting in his locker and the media people are there. And I'm just kind of like waiting to see if he wants to say anything. He looks up to me.

He goes, what do you think? I said, what do I think? He goes, yeah, what do you think? I said, I think these two games were much different than games one and two last year. I said, I think you guys are actually more competitive than the game score. He just looked at me and he just shrugged his shoulders. He goes, I like that. So the Penguins win game three in Pittsburgh.

And I'm talking to Jordan Stahl between games three and four. And I said, hey, was there anything said before game three? He said the day before, Cid said, this is a closer series. than you think. Robert, you're taking credit for the page when you're going to

like up. Is that what's happening here? No, no, no, I'm not. I'm telling this. This actually leads

to a story. Sid had said this was a closer series than you think. So I ask, I ask Sid, after that, I said, like,

was this a message? He said, before you came into the room, you being the media, Dan had told us that. He said, even though you're down 02,

this is a closer series than you think. This isn't the same as last year. And that was the messaging that they were all saying. And game four, to me is, you know, game six was wild. Game seven was a game seven. But game four to me was where the series kind of pivoted because the Penguins had won game three and 08. So it was the same situation, right? You're going into game four. And the Red Wings are up two to one in that game. And they go on a power play. And it's an extended power play. And this is at the old Civic

Green in Pittsburgh, which Lazre members, was quaint, but a dump. And as I like to say, the 08 and 09 finals were in really cool buildings that you never want to be in again. But they had great, like in the bowl, it was great, like the noise, the sound, the feel, but in a working environment, it was bad. And as I tell people, because the Detroit press box at Joe Lewis Arena didn't exist when they built the arena and it was just makeshift. And because the one at the Civic Arena also was just sort of makeshift, there were only about 20 seats for the media. And even though I had one, I actually preferred sitting below and watching the game on the live feed on the big screens because I felt like I felt more of what was going on. And I'm sitting to the great Michael Farmer.

That's what I loved about Joe Lewis Arena. Is it? Yeah. As terrible as that press box was, you were in the crowd. You felt, you go to Edmonton now. And Edmonton's new arena at Rogers Place is fabulous, but you are so far above the tree line. It's like you might as well not even be at the game. It doesn't feel like you're in a crowd. Yeah, I always say like the Edmonton press boxes in Saskatchewan, whereas the two press boxes here were like, it felt like you were on the blue line, right? So, but for this particular game, it's like two to one and I'm like under because, again,

you're trying to write a bunch of stories early. And I'm kind of like trying to, I just, I got into the habit of sort of after the first period going down. and then if I wanted to go back up for the third period, I could. So I'm in the second period. The penguins are on this power play, or penguins are on this penalty kill. And Jordan Stahl scores a shorthanded goal. And I'm sitting next to Michael Farber.

And there's a beam in front of us at this old building. And when Stahl scores, we both notice that there's like dust falling on our computers. And we realize it's part of the. the old decaying ceiling at the very low level because the building would shake. And we couldn't tell if there was like parts of the building that were coming down or it was just dusty from being 50 years old. And then so it's two to two in that point. And the penguin score again and then it's three to two.

And Farber looks at me and I'll never forget as he looks at me. He goes, we're a Sidney Crosby goal away from being in real danger here. And wouldn't you know it? They go on like a rush and Crosby scores to make it four to two. And it's like you just hear this burst of energy. And Farber, I look at Farber, I go, boy, Michael, I said, you're like, you're the guy, but I sure as hell hope you're wrong here because I don't want to die before we at least get the game seven. So, but no, the series stands out to me because to this day, it was the best hockey I've ever covered.

It does get tough as the time goes by to not think of the first series and the second series blending together. In a lot of ways, to me, that series ended up being a blueprint for what I think this series has to be, which was though, even though Sidney Crosby was the best player on the Penguins, for them to win, he couldn't be the guy that was the star of the series. It had to be somebody else because, and I kind of feel that about the, the Oilers. What the penguins learned from 08 to 09 was, even though they have that guy, they need that guy to sort of take a role where he's still great, but in a much different way so that somebody else can elevate and see if the champions have somebody to match that.

I have a weird obsession with the idea of momentum. I don't know if I really believe it exists at the professional level. I ask guys, every year in the playoffs, I just randomly ask us, does momentum carry from game to game or only, within a game. So I want to ask you, does momentum carry year to year? Like you mentioned the host of thing. So there's some bad blood there in some ways. But do things from the last year, did the 08 series carry over into 09 in any way where there was lingering bad blood? Because these teams don't see each other a whole lot during the regular season. So where there's still kind of like scores to settle for lack of a better term? I wouldn't say there were scores to settle.

I do think momentum. I agree with you, Las, I don't think momentum means anything. And especially in a cup final because you got so many breaks between the games. You didn't get as many back then. Back then, they did do like two travel days between, but that was it. Like you had like the two travel days. Like you didn't get multiple days off between each game. I wouldn't say that there were scores to settle. But what did carry over was little things I noticed in, in 08, Brooks Orpick was trying to hit anything that moved. In 2008, in 2009, he was playing a much more composed game. He would deliver a hit, but he wasn't running around looking for it. In 2008, the penguins tried to score exclusively off the rush. In 2009, they were really working on trying to sort of get the

Jordan stall line out when they could to sort of tilt the ice physically and then get Crosby or Malkin out right after that. In 08, I would say Jordan Stahl was, I don't want to say he was like, he's such a big guy, but his grandfather had died. I think he was just emotionally, he had hit a wall. Chris LaTang's best friend, Luke Boudron, had died during that series. He was pulled from the series. Tyler Kennedy couldn't score a goal. All of a sudden, in 2009, Jordan Stahl's just this Herculean beast. Every time he's on the ice, you're looking at the Red Wings and going,

they can't physically handle this guy. Tyler Kennedy's scoring goals left and right in important games. Chris LaTang is being trusted more and more to go out there against good players because of his skating and his confidence is up. So I think the matchup kind of carried over in a way. But I wouldn't say, like those Red Wing teams were tough. I mean, you probably have a better feel for this, but I feel like those Red Wing teams,

they were tough to have, like, sort of hatred for because they kind of played the game in a very stylistic, calculated way. But one thing I will say about that series was, I thought Mike Babcock got worse as it went on. The Red Wings were, like, very arrogant. He pulled Justin Abdel Cater, who was a young player, out of the lineup after Game 2. And Abducator was the, like he was, he was just, you could tell he just, the matchups were favoring him in games one and two, and he was great. And he pulled Abducator out of the game. And the Penguins after that, like the Red Wings never really got depth scoring after that.

And I'll always remember the morning of game seven, we're at the Joe. It's a really sunny day in Detroit. It's a warm day. And when you walked into the Penguins room, there was a tension, but I wouldn't call it a negative tension. there was that tension you get where you get the feeling that players are treating this like it's the biggest moment of their career. And the Red Wings Room was just sort of like, I don't want to say it was like a regular season, but it didn't feel like a game seven. And we're talking to Mike Babcock afterward. And Dan Bousmas, you know, back then, he was very clever with a quick phrase.

And he was like, we are treating this like, this is it. You empty your tank. This is what we, you know. And I remember Mike Babcock. in his very uniquely arrogant way, he said, all I'm looking for tonight is for us to be our normal selves, that will be good enough.

And I remember walking out of the room and I ran into Ray Shiro, the late Ray Shiro, and Rob Rossi, and he's swearing a lot. And you go, so what do you think? And I looked at him, I said, Ray, if the Red Wings play like their coach is talking, you guys are going to have a Stanley Cup going home to Pittsburgh.

because they just seemed like we've been there, we know what to do. And in that game seven, the Red Wings, it took them a while to get into the game. Like the penguins were just jumping on them early. And then, I mean, Osgood gave up a really bad goal to Max Talbot. Crosby got hurt in that game. That was, we're all trying to figure out, like, what is wrong with Cindy Crosby? Why is he not playing? Because he had taken a hit on the, forget who hit him.

One of the defensemen hit him for Detroit. And I guess he basically had a glorified Charlie horse. So Malkin becomes the number one center. And all of a sudden, at one point of the second period, after the penguins get up to nothing, I see if Gettie Malkin win a face off, circle back, get the punk, get the red line, dump it in. I remember looking at the columnist I had at the time and going, well, the penguins are in pretty good shape here. Because if Gettie Malkin's just dumping the puck in, like they are kind of like conjuring whatever defensive tactics, Mike Terry.

had instilled in them before Bosbub took over and opened things up. Your memory is incredible. Every playoff series I covered is blurted to this one mass of information in my head that I can't pull out the 13 from the 15, from the 16. Like your memory here is kind of extraordinary to me. Yeah, well, I mean, I, that series, I mean, you know, I texted our colleague Chris Johnston the other night when Edmonton won. And I said, I said, you know, we were kids back then.

And I said, you know, the hockey might be better, but they'll never have as much fun as the media did because we were, we were, the real stories are actually what the media was doing because we, it was a driveable series. Pittsburgh to Detroit's like five hours. So everybody was driving back and forth. And we were hitting the Detroiter in Detroit. And we were hitting a bar called Smoke and Joe's in Pittsburgh

on the south side. And we were going hard. And I said the, and Chris asked me, he was like, what do you remember about that series? I said, I said, Chris, I got in a habit of taking really good notes after 08. And he goes, why? I said, because we were hitting it so hard that I was worried I was going to lose some of this. And thank God I did because I was reviewing those notes when I found out we were going to do this tonight.

That's the trick. So that's what happened to me then. Okay. I want to go back to the first thing you said, Rob, about it had to be said it as kind of a, not so much a decoy, but he had to play a very specific role. And someone else had to be the penguin's best players, right? And I wonder if that is the case or not for the Oilers. I think it's been part of the story for why they've gotten to the last two Stanley Cup finals,

as I do think there's been way more depth on these Oilers teams. But I'd also say McDavid's in a pretty different place at this point in his career than Sid was even back then. I get like it has to be about the team. I think there's no doubt about that. But when I look at where these Oilers are, especially with Heim and out, I do feel like it's going to take something pretty Herculian from the best player on the planet to win this. Yeah, but I, you know, what I always admired about the Penguins and the Blackhawks teams that last covered was they had these three stars that could sort of, they could dominate games in different ways, but they didn't need to always play together. And I think that's the interesting thing to me about this, right?

Like, if the Oilers get to the point where they have to play McDavid and Drysito together, in theory, they become a much easier team to defend. Totally. I always hated when people said the Pittsburgh model. It was like, well, from the minute of getting Malkin stepped into the league, he was a top three center. And Sidney Crosby was like the best center in hockey at the end of his first season. So, like, they had the two of the three best centers right away in terms of like scoring centers,

right? So there's not really a fair model. If you think about the Blackhawks, right, they had Keith. Like, to me, to me, the difference between 08 and 09 in Pittsburgh was in 08, the guy that I watched and I just went, my God, they don't have an answer for him, was Nick Lidstrom. I mean, Nick Lidstrum just shut Sid down. Sid remembered that. So Chris Koonitz's job in 2009 and he wasn't there in 08 was to pound Nick Lidstrum.

Chris Kudit scored one goal in the 09 playoffs. he was a terror. He just would literally, they would dump the puck in, and I called them Kuna Kauzi hits. He would just skate in and detach the defenseman from the puck. And even the great Nick Lidsstrom by about game six had had enough of having this maniac just skating into him and basically just pounding him. And when I remember watching the Blackhawks those years, I remember thinking how composed Duncan Keith was.

Teams, even when they tried to run him, I remember thinking how. you know, Jonathan Taze wasn't the offensive player, Crosby or Malkin was, but he could just hold on to the puck for so long in the offensive zone. And then you had this generational talent in his own right in Patrick Kane, right? So when I thought about the penguins in 2009, in 2008, Sid was their best player and Hosa was their second best player. And Hosa probably would have won the Kahn Smyth if they had won that series. But by 2009, Crosby and Malkin were kind of like neck and neck. Chris LaTang had emerged and you had this Jordan Stahl thing. And oh, by the way, that's the year that a scout told me the most interesting thing I've ever heard.

Because he was asking me, when it became game seven, I was trying to sort of reconfiguring, well, if Detroit wins, here's my cons might list. If Pittsburgh wins, here's my cons smith list. And I was just talking to a scout from a completely different team that I knew. And he's like, well, where do you have Flurry if Pittsburgh wins? I'm like, I don't know if I have them on. I'm like, his numbers are okay. He goes, what are his numbers in the wins?

and I said, I looked them up. I think that was before Hockey DB, so you actually had to do the math. And I'm like, oh, they're outrageous. And he goes, we give you advice.

He goes, in the playoffs, only judge a goaltender on his numbers are in the wins because the only thing that matters is winning hockey games in the playoffs if you were a goalie. And I went,

huh, and I don't know if that's right, but I don't think I buy that at all, frankly. But I think what his way is, I think what he was saying was, the best goalies in the playoffs don't get infatuated by their numbers and shake off the losses. That's that's, I buy that.

I think that's what he was saying to me. Like saying only the losses don't count to a goal. No, no, but I think I, well, you know how scouts speak, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was a grizzled scout. But that really shaped my view of it because I look at goaltenders in the wins and I go, how are they in the big moments? It's not necessarily about their numbers.

How are they in the big moments? And Flurry rose to the moments occasion in that series. You know, famously in 08, he literally fell coming out of the dressing room to start that series. And in 2009, like, and there were these little things. Like, in 08, the Red Wings were just firing pucks off the boards in Detroit and the bounces were given the penguin. Well, as you remember, those boards in Detroit, like they were like ping pong, right? But knowing them was important too, like where to put the fluff to get the balance you want. Yeah.

I will tell you one really funny story if I have time. So as you guys, as certainly you know, it's a weird thing to cover a Stanley Cup final because it's in June and it's warm out, but the building is frozen, freezing, right? So I had this like mustard jacket that I was wearing. as sort of like a joke during the playoffs for every first penguin home game because it was like mustard with a like like a red and orange check. It looked like it was like if somebody was in the 1970s

and they were trying to design something heinous even for then. But I'm a weird guy, Rob. I think we need to make sure our listeners realize that. And I yes. And I didn't realize. And I wore, I was wearing, I was not wearing, I was not wearing a, I was not wearing a collard shirts.

I was wearing like mocked turdnecks because I was getting cold. So the, the mock turtleneck I had worn was a yellow turtleneck, like a, kind of like a same color. Now, those weren't the penguins' colors.

It was just gold. I wore it for game three, because I'd worn that for game three of every playoff series, and I was just like, I'm kind of on a knit. Game four, I wear the same jacket, completely forgetting I'd worn in a game three,

and I wear like a red turtree. Was this in the notes? Yes, this is. in the notes. So game five, I don't wear this. I don't wear any of this. And the penguins get blown out in game five. And how gills in the room afterwards, everybody's kind of sour. And he looks at me and he goes, what the hell are you wearing? And I went like, what? And he's like, where's that damn jacket? And I'm like, dude, like I accidentally wore two days in a row. And he's like, if you don't wear that for game six, I'm going to tell Sid, and if we lose, he's never

going to speak to you again. And I'm like, I think he's joking, but I don't know. And how's a big dude? So I'm like, I'm just, I'm going to wear it again, right? So I wear the, I wear the, hashtag journalism right here. Right. Well, here's the thing. It wasn't so that the penguins would win. I didn't want Hal Gill assaulting me. And I'm like, I'm only four years into this beat. I can't have Cidney Crosby not talk to me over some ritual. So I wear the outfit I wear for game four or the top of it. And so they win and Gil goes, all right, what do you got plan for game seven? I'm like, I don't know, man. I'll probably get up there like the night before I have a dinner and he's like, no, what are you wearing? And I'm like, I said, I guess I'm wearing this damn jacket again.

I said, dude, this jacket stinks. And he goes, and you better wear the yellow turtleneck. And I'm like, okay. So I wear it again out of complete fear. And we're going on to the ice afterwards. They win the Stanley Cup, blah, blah, blah. And I hate this jacket. I hate it. Like, it smells.

I don't like the fact that I'm wearing like a gold. And there's actually a picture of us walking in. And Sergei Gonshire is looking to find his family. And Craig Custin and I are both like next to each other. And I look like this guy from like the 1970 Leasershoot Larry, right? And Gil, Gil comes up to me and he's like, he just starts pointing at the jacket. And I'm like, okay, whatever. And I go to talk to Jordan Stahl and he's doing a scrum and Stahl gives me like the left hand thing, like wait.

And so I'm like, okay, he's going to talk to me one on one. And I'm trying to just gather stories for a special section. And Stahl just picks me up. Like, and Jordan Sol is a big guy. He just picks me up and like squeezes me. He goes, I'm a Stanley Cup champion. And I'm like, I need to ask you a question. And he puts me down.

And this jacket is soaked because Stahl has like been sweat, sweating. And he goes, oh, man, I'm so sorry about your jacket. And I look at him. I said, dude, I've wanted to get rid of this jacket for like a week now. This is twice now that you have claimed credit for why the Penguins won the 2009. No, no, no, no. I'm not claiming credit. I'm just saying out of fear of how Gill, I wore this damn jacket.

for like four of the seven games. And that jacket, even if I wanted to wear it again, I took it to the cleaners and the cleaner said, we can't do anything with this. These stains that you came back with are like impenetrable from the dry cleaners. So I always joke with how Gil about that. Well, that's what we've been building to this entire episode is that you're looking to predict this series, look not to the players, look not to the goalies, look not to the coaches look to the jackets on the beat writers i'll tell you real quick i was in uh for game five

morning skate game five of stars oilers uh i won't say who i won't sell him out but a stars person came into the room wearing a bright green stars polo went into the visiting room and holy crap the amount of f bombs directed in this poor guy's way and he basically got the bums rush out of the locker room i was like wow i haven't seen that in like 15 that's like someone stepping on the logo or something back in the day. Well, to make up for it in 2012 when they played the flyers, I was covering the penguins and I wore orange for every game just because I felt like I owed the hockey guard some karma. So, but yeah, but yeah, it was a, it was a, it was an interesting series. It was the great hockey and I think the hockey was so great because those teams knew

each other so well from the year before, even though they didn't play each other other than twice in the regular season. And I felt bad for Marion Hosa. I legitimately, did because like the penguins offered him more money and longer term and he just looked like he had the look because you know you're going to both dressing rooms after the game he just had the look of like what the hell do I got to do um and of course worked out okay for him yeah I worked out okay for him all right well that is going to do it for us thanks for listening to this episode of the athletic hockey show please if you're enjoying the show leave us a rating and a review the athletic hockey show will be back on wednesday it'll be 66% Sean's 33% Frankie the extra one

You'll have to tune in to find out. We'll talk to you then.