The Athletic Hockey Show - Why a Blackhawks-Patrick Kane reunion makes sense

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

As the summer rolls on and the NHL offseason continues, the Chicago Blackhawks are one of the few teams creating headlines. Today, Laz and Shayna discuss Connor Bedard’s shoulder surgery that’ll keep him out for four months and whether it’s fair to label him “injury prone” at this point in his career, as well as the possibility of Hawks legend Patrick Kane reuniting with the club to help buoy the offense while Bedard is out. Plus, thoughts on the Anaheim Ducks officially matching Leo Carlsson’s offer sheet and how high Shayna’s concern-o-meter is for the Dallas Stars and Jason Robertson and the Columbus Blue Jackets and Zach Werenski.Hosts: Mark Lazerus and Shayna GoldmanExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris FlanneryWatch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hello and welcome to the athletic hockey show. I am Mark Lazarus. And if my old Long Island accent rears its magnificent head today, you can go ahead and blame Shana Goldman. Shana. How are things in the home of Fudgy the Whale and Real Bagels? My home in Native Land.

How you doing? You know what? It's great. I had bagels yesterday and I was like, this is great. Imagine not having this every day. I couldn't. Couldn't be me. I went to Jewel Osco, the grocery store, and got bagels yesterday.

I wanted to cry. It was just, it's just not the same. It really isn't. And it's, it's too bad. This is why, like, the islanders need to come back a little closer to Long Island. Like, it's fine now, but I feel like they got to shift a little east. So everyone has an excuse to come here and get, like, all of the real food for a couple days. Like, everyone would be booking their trip. I think you're right. I think, I think the staggering drawing power of the Long Island bagel is all that they really need. We are going to talk about Connor Bardard's shoulder today. We're going to talk about what that means for Chicago. We're going to get into Patrick Kane, who is one of the few intriguing free agents left still out there. We're definitely going to

talk about Leo Carlson and the ducks matching the Philadelphia Flyers offer sheet. And we're going to get into Shayna's height meter, who concern a meter. I did want to ask you, though, Shana, because like, you know, we're spending the weekend trying to figure out things to talk about and nothing's really happening in the NHL these days. And the NFL offseason is kind of like no other, you know, damn near the whole league has scurried off to their lake houses and cottages. I really got to get me one of those.

So it's getting awfully quiet. You know, the baseball hot stove, it just drags on forever. The NFL has no offseason. The NBA is just drama. every day it seems. There's always something going on. But in hockey, you know, the Cup is awarded in mid-June. About a week later, you have the draft. Three days after that, you have about six hours of free agency, and then everybody's gone. And they don't come back until September. Selfishly, I love it. It's the best off-season by far if you're a sports writer. I think 90% of our

colleagues are on vacation right now. It's why you and I are hosting the show right now. But is it good for the sport? I mean, yeah, Jason Robertson's still out there and you got Dylan Larkin's situation, but it's just crickets. Nobody is talking about hockey in the off season. Selfishly, I love it. I don't know if it's good for the game, though. Not really. I think, you know, sometimes it's like, well, no news is good news because you don't want controversy, but I think in hockey, like,

news is good. You know, being in the cycle is good. I will give the NHL credit, though, because they've had, like, a real off season. Like, they're in actually a professional league after the last few weeks. We've had a ton of chaos, and we had offer sheets. We've had trades. We had it leading up to the draft. We had it at the draft. We had it after the draft free agency, you think it's done for the day? Just kidding. Here's a wave of trades, as we're all trying to close out for the day. I think that was great. And I think the fact that

there are a couple free agents and a couple trade candidates still available, like the Dillen-Larkin situation's unresolved. Connor Hullabuck, who's to say what's going to happen there. And like you mentioned Robertson, that's a good thing because just when we're all, you know, quiet and not talking about anything, maybe we'll get like a massive deal like that. We're all back in the forefront. We're excited. We're talking about it. And we'll have a minute to digest it, which is a good thing, right? Because that's the one thing that hurts about like a deadline day, a free agency day. It's all happening at once. So you'll have a day of coverage, but then it's, you know, it's all quiet. So I feel like this is a better offseason than years past for sure.

But yeah, it would obviously help the sport, especially after such a huge year to see the momentum keep going. That's why, you know, with the PWHL and everyone was talking about expansion, it was like, well, is this good? Is this bad? If everyone's critiquing the expansion rules and it's like, well, we're all talking about it. And we're not just talking about the drum. of things because sometimes it does feel like people jump into the women's hockey sphere just to be like, look, this is going wrong. Let's make fun of it and punch down. But it's, we're talking about roster stuff and we're talking about team construction and all important things that you want to see in like your standard off season. So I felt like that was great for the game after a huge year for them

too. So I'm going to put the NHL like similar to that. It felt like we have some progress, but the cricket's not the best move in August. But if things can heat up at the right time and, you know, get that momentum going in September, then it'll be fine. It did feel like we had like an almost MBA's worth of offseason, but it was just crammed into two weeks there. Like how, when the Leo Carlson offer sheet happened, that was the most fun like the hockey world's had in ages. Like, oh my God, like a real offer sheet on a real player with real money and real stakes.

Like that stuff happens every other week in the NBA, it feels like. You know, it's, I just, I don't know if it's great for the league to just have this drag out. I remember, I won't say what team it was, but I had a PR guy from one of the NHL teams telling me that he, there was so little coverage of his team back up, this is like, I don't know, 10 years ago, so little local coverage of his team, he would call the local radio station just use a fake name. Like if something bad was happening with the team, something controversy, something that they, that normally you wouldn't want out there. And he would get it out there and tell the radio station just so they would talk about his team, even in the negative way, because there's no bad PR in the PR world. I feel like the NHL sometimes is just desperate to get some of that oxygen that goes to all the other leagues. But I mean, again, selfishly, it's great. We're all about to just, you know, disappear for six weeks, which is a pretty good trade-up, I would say.

One of those things that is, you mentioned, that is kind of hanging over is Connor Bedard's contract extension. He is an RFA right now. He is not signed for next year. And some Blackhawks fans here in Chicago are getting a little angsty about that. I don't think it's an issue. I don't think that his shoulder injury that he suffered last week. He's going to be out for four months. He's not going to be back until probably about mid-November.

And remember, the NHL season starts earlier this year because they're cramming in a couple more games. So that's, he's going to miss 15 or 20 games potentially here after he just had an awkward fall at a training facility in the Vancouver suburbs with some other NHL players. I don't think that's going to affect his contract. But his absence is certainly going to affect the Blackhawks. I mean, I feel like I'm in a little bubble here in Chicago where I see Bedard every day and I know how good he can be. I saw until his shoulder injury last year that he was going step for step with Macklin Celebrini. He was third in the league in scoring.

He was producing at a higher rate even than Celebrini. What is the perception of Bedard outside of Chicago right now? Is he in that, do people think he can be that or are they already kind of moved on from him a little bit? I mean, I don't think there's any reason to move on from him. I feel like the hype wasn't there immediately. And I think with first overall picks, there's always a level of impatience, right? Everyone expects an Austin Matthews, McDavid, a Nathan McKinnon, to, jump out. And I get it, right, because those players can be available at that pick. And Macklin

Salabrini comes into the league and it reminds everyone of that, right? But you still have players like the Jack Hughes, the Nico Heshares of the world that take a little more time to get there. And they still hit impact status. They still hit that elite tier. And even if it's not in the same stratosphere as McDavid, who among us is, right? So I think that there was, you know, rightfully some impatience with Bedard. But I think he should have taken everyone's attention back last year. And Obviously, he didn't sustain it through the whole year. There was the injury. And doing it across the eight-two games is hard.

But I think that there were so many positive signs. Like, you know, the uptick and foot speed was huge because he was so much more dynamic off the rush. And that's part of those superstar caliber players you want to see is them thriving in transition. And I think his shot, which we know is one of his best weapons. I think that first half of the year was so good for him in the reminder of like he has that in him. Sometimes the path to get there is a little bit tougher. And I think with the Blackhawks, the way they've rebuilt compared to, say, San Jose, and I think, you know, surrounded players with the right veterans and maximize their development,

the right ways. Like, it hasn't all lined up perfectly for Chicago. So I think that does make it much harder on him. But he's someone that shouldn't be underestimated. Like, he has that star caliber. He hit impact status, I think, finally last year. There's still some quirks to work out. The defensive game isn't perfect.

But you look at his surroundings, you have to account for that, too. So I'm personally not worried for him. I think, you know, some can get that fatigue because he didn't get there as soon, but I don't know what else anyone could want last year. Like, to me, it was Olympic caliber, you know, when they were making those rosters. Like, I would have had him on there as well as Celebrini. But the fact that he was in the conversation when a year ago, I don't think any of us would have seen that coming, I think is a huge step. I think nobody would call me a homer when it comes to the Black House. But I do find myself almost defending Bedard a lot to people from outside the same.

I'm like, no, if you watched him last year, you saw it. He is one of those guys. He just hasn't had the chance because a lot of it is the injuries. And yes, he's on a bad team. And he's the number one center on a bad team. And he was shoved down everyone's throat for three or four years leading up to his draft. Celebrini wasn't like that. So I think there's a natural backlash against Bidar because people were sick of him before he even got here,

which isn't his fault. That's just the way that the modern media ecosystem works. But one thing I'm starting to hear now from, again, this is fans. speak. So the histrionics are always there, but he's injury prone, right? This is the third significant injury he's had now, and he's only been in the league for three years. I don't know how you really say that, because all three are kind of, it's not like he has like a nagging thing, right? He got his jaw broken by, I believe it was Brendan Smith as his rookie year, and he missed like 14 games. Last year, he got his shoulder messed up in a face off with

Braden Shen and St. Louis missed 14 games. And this year, he fell on his other shoulder. And we believe it's a separation there that required surgery. It feels to me almost Jack Hughes-like, where, you know, Bardard's undersides. Badard is a, he's a sturdy, man. He's not slight. Like, he is short. He's like 510, 5-11, but he is strong, he's thick.

He can handle himself. But this is now three major injuries in three-plus years. I feel like Jack Hughes went through a similar start where it took him a few years to really realize what he could become because of injuries. Do you see a similar trajectory there? Yeah, I feel like it's the perfect comp for him. It just makes all the sense in the world. It's not someone like, we go through the numbers and we look at Dom's model and pick out

comps. Like sometimes it's the narrative, the situation, the potential put it all together. And I think there's a bit of Jackie. He's like, you know, there's differences. Like Hughes was more of a playmaker when he comes into the league. And then he hit his true superstar status when he decided, actually, I'm going to figure out how to finish my chances and be more of a dual threat. Like with Badard, you have the opposite thing.

going because I think the shot is more of the starting point for him. And once he becomes that elite playmaker, and I think he's going to become it too, like you're going to go, oh, wow, he can do a little bit of everything. You need a line mate to become a playmaker. That's the problem, right? And that's why, like, I have an issue with the Blackhawks rebuild. Like, you have to have a good vision. You have to have better execution of the vision. And you need a little bit of luck. And it feels like everything's working against them right now. But with the injuries, specifically the shoulder injuries, too. It just makes that Jack Hughes comp make all the sense of the world. And last year we were doing player tiers. And we were,

trying to figure out where Jack Hughes belongs, and we didn't really have them in that MVP caliber tier with guys like McDavid and McKinnon and Drysidal. He was in, I remember right, 2A. But we were asking, like, is he 1C? Is he 2A? Is he injury prone? Do we start worrying about that? Because when you're going through the best players in the world, you're going to have to start nitpicking the details and durability is one of those details at this point, right? Because if you're unavailable to play, we can't talk about how good you are. So we were asking and And someone specifically had mentioned shoulder injuries and how players can get labeled as injury prone. And if it's, you know, if it's the same nagging injury, it's one thing.

But sometimes those smaller players are more prone to them. And you're talking about it so early in their career until they just stop happening, right? And then it's like it's a thing of the past. And I think that's where we're going to be with Jack Hughes. I think it's what we're going to get to that point with Baderd eventually of the concern. Yes, but there's the randomness of it. It's not like he puts himself in a position to get hurt constantly because you do see players. that I think don't protect themselves well enough that you expect those injuries, right?

Like they throw blind passes and you're like, that vision, that anticipation's got to be there to protect yourself a little bit better or, you know, it's the same injury over and over again. And, you know, they treat it this way. It doesn't work or they get treated and then it's re-injured. There are totally different circumstances here. Like this is all just randomness and it's completely different things each time. I think it's so easily, you know, easy to bin it. Like, okay, shoulder issues, even though they're two different shoulders.

And I get that there's concern of, well, if one is going to be, you know, potentially damaged at all because he was hurt once and now the other one is, are you going to be short change? I just don't see that either. And I think that background when we heard it with Hughes, it helped because it's just bedlock. It's randomness. So I think we'll get to a point where we're not thinking about the injuries all the time. It's just piss poor luck right now. And I think it's even more glaring on Chicago because if the darts out and we've seen it, you know, this lineup looks completely different without them because they don't have enough difference. makers around him and, you know, they're relying so much on the young players to take a step forward.

Well, it's a lot harder to do when everyone's jumping up the depth chart into roles that they shouldn't be in, especially at these early phases of their career. So it's like worst case scenario each time that we look at it and go, well, if he can't stay healthy and if he's not available, and it's so easy to get dramatic that way. I'm not at that point yet. Yeah, it's funny. Max always makes fun of me because I always say Jack Hughes is maybe my favorite player in the league to watch. He doesn't think he's quite at that level. And I got, I got crapper saying he might have been a He could be a top five player in the league. I do see that kind of skill from him,

that kind of joie de vivre as he plays where he just can take over. But it's funny with Badard is the same thing, but he does not have a winger, right? Last year, his wingers were Andre Burakoffsky, who had maybe the worst half of a season I've ever seen an hockey player have in the second half last year. And Ryan Green, a nice young player, but a rookie who is projected to be a bottom six center.

So we still don't know what Badard can be. Now he's injured. Maybe this prevents him from being able to take face off. last year when he got injured. He didn't take faceoffs for about two months after he returned. He waited until after the Olympic break before they let him take faceoffs again. But Dard sees himself as a center. The Blackhawks see him as a center long term.

They've committed to him being a center. But you've got Frank Nazar. You've got Anton Frundel. They've drafted a ton of centers in the first round over the years. Guys like Sasha Boehiver and Merrick Vaneker and Mason West. There are guys that can take that role. And I wonder if this eventually leads him to becoming the wing that he doesn't have, if he might be better suited on the wing.

He doesn't want to hear that. I don't blame him. He has worked really hard on his face house. He's become a very competent center. He is not nearly the defensive black hole that people make him out to be. He is not a good defensive center yet, but he's also 20 years old. Do you think he'd be better off as a wing? Is that a spot where he could just kind of unleash more?

I kind of want to see him stay at center. I feel like he can be his most effective there. We know it. The centers are generally the play drivers. you can have instances where the winger takes over as the play driver. You look at like the Mark Stones of the world, right? Like he hasn't always had that perfect center. But he's someone you could throw in a line and know he's going to be the guy, no problem.

Same with Caprisov. Same with David Pachan. Perfect example, right? Well, considering Bruin's center depth since Bergeron's gone. And if they ever wanted to split them up, it was Pachanok driving his own line. You could trust him to do that. So it's a good thing to have, right? This is why you draft a bunch of centers because you give yourself so much more versatility within your lineup.

You can, you know, shift players around, try different combinations. You're not locked into a few things. if he can play the wing and have that in his back pocket whenever they need it and they know they can go with like a super line, great, wonderful to have. But I would want to keep him at center as much as possible when his injuries allow for it, right? Like if he comes back, maybe he doesn't take face off this time. It would make perfect sense. He's back in on the wing and then shift back to the middle. But I just feel like he can open up his game the most playing center.

It is the most important position. And I think to be a winger that's in the conversation at centers is very hard to do. Like we literally never have a winger in the, you know, tier 1A. It centers. To jump up in there, you have to be at peak Nikita Kutrov levels and Pete Poshnok and Kep, and Keparov, and we still have that separation between the McKinnons and the McDavid's in the world and the Kuthorovs. So that's the thing.

I feel like it'll always hold his game back just a little bit. But if that is an option down the line, it's good to know that it's there, but I would focus on center first. Do you think this has any impact at all on his contract? You're thinking long term here, this is the kind of injury you come back from and you're fine. You know, it's not like it's going to be probably a nagging thing. But he is an RFA. He is not signed.

When you see what Leo Carlson got, Connor Bredar's got to have dollar signs in his eyes like a Warner Brothers cartoon. You spent a lot of time thinking about what these guys are actually worth, what their actual market value is. What do you think Bidar's market value is and what do you think he's actually going to get paid? I mean, I think the Carlson contract should raise the bar for everyone because, I honestly do think from an outside perspective, a team should be off-resheeding Bard, even if the Blackhawks are going to match, just screw up their cap picture off from $20 million. Whereas case scenario, you get, you know, a cornerstone player. Best case scenario, you get as Cornerstone player.

Worst case scenario, you just screw up the Blackhawks. And the rest of the league should be trying to do that, right? Because you want to stop a team from jumping into that playoff picture and being your competition, take away their cap space and take away their flexibility. But he could, if he got the same $2 million tomorrow, I'd be like, yeah, that makes sense, right? Because we're so used to these players being undervalued and getting less than their market value. If I remember correctly, and I know Scott and I looked at it earlier this offseason, I want to say his market value was in like the 14 or 15 million range, which makes

sense, right? Because we generally don't see players jump up to that next tier. The $20 million range right now, I think that's like Cal McCar money, right? I think McDavid's probably even higher. He's probably like $22 million or something stupid. Like $14, $15 million, I feel like is kind of the sweet spot. And I know that sounds outlandish to be calling a number that big the sweet but I think we have to rethink Superstar contracts. We're finally seeing teams prioritize RFA talent and the prime of their careers. And that's what you want to do for your Chicago. He's the most important player they have.

Everything about this rebuild revolves around him. So that's what I would be angling for. That would be the money. You know, if Leo Carlson got $14, $15 million tomorrow, we'd be like, that makes a lot of sense. Great, great work, Anaheim. So it's a little bit different here. If he got $18 million, I don't think it's bad either.

Because if you're going to overpay anyone, overpay your stars, who you think have that ceiling to outperform. expectations. But right now, that's where my mind goes. I think the Logan Cooley comp of 10 million was fine before the cap went up again. And I always thought there was going to be a little bit of separation there that Badaard would get a little bit more than Cooley regardless because of where the teams are and each of their importance to the teams. But I think now the bar is a little higher. I agree. I think 14 to 15 million for like a five year deal is that's what the most he should be trying to bet on himself and take a short term deal as possible. Ocks are obviously

going to want to get long term, but 15 million is right. If it's 18, then you pay him. It's hard to overstate just how important Connor Bardard is to the Blackharks. He is the entire franchise. He is the face. He is the voice. He's going to be the captain. He's all the marketing.

Every jersey you see in the stands is a 98 jersey. He is the entire world. And it's different than it was in this previous generation. I want to bring up Patrick Kane and Jonathan Taves because I want to talk about Patrick Kane. But they had each other, right? Frank Nazar is a big personality. He's a great friend of Bedard's.

he is nowhere near the same stratosphere that the dard is in. One of the few guys who can understand what that's like is Patrick Kane. He's still a free agent. Scott Powers, Matt Fairburn and I did a story last week where we've heard that Chicago and Buffalo are kind of the two primary suitors right now for Patrick Kane. And it's kind of up to him what he wants. Either way is a homecoming, right? Does he go home to Chicago where he's basically lived for the last decade and made his fame? Or does he go home to Buffalo, a team that can actually win right now?

Like, what's, what, what, which do you see as a better fit for him right now? I mean, the savers are probably the better fit for him right now because he would be a less important player there, if that makes sense. Because you look at him in Detroit and he was effective. Once he, you know, you look at the difference of like what happened when he was, uh, traded to the Rangers and the way he was skating and not keeping up with plays. Right. And he's someone who is kind of a puck hog and he quarterback's plays within his minutes.

But it's tough to do that when your body doesn't allow you to play at your maximum. maximum is obviously a lot lower now at this point in his career. But I think we saw that resurgence in Detroit. He got back to the playmaking strengths. We saw him moving a lot better. You know, so going to a team like the Sabres, I think would make sense in that they're closer. They have more depth to support him because he would be somewhere in the middle six. He's not necessarily, you know, going to be top line, talent, there you go. And I also think they have the foot speed to kind of make up for where he lacks because he can slow the game down. I think that's good to have and it'll give them a little bit more versatility.

but I understand the Blackhawks being a good fit too because they definitely need more help on the wings. I get betting on the internal growth of players. That's what you should be doing. This is the name of the game of the rebuild. These are the players that are most pivotal to their future around Bedard is having so many difference makers, right? You want to get those top 10 picks and then you want to develop them. But I worry just how much they're being relied on and how much there isn't that supporting liar of veteran talent around them. Someone like Kane would be that. Sure, there are some gaps in his game.

Sure, he's not very good defensively either. And that could exacerbate something that already exists in Chicago. But I think it's having that veteran presence to help keep things afloat and then maybe take some minutes so other players don't have to. Would be a good get for the Blackhawks as well. It's funny you mentioned that because like knowing Kane like I do, I covered him for a long time. Now, he has gone absolutely radio silent. has Pat Brassan about this. Nobody's talking about where Patrick Haynes is actually going.

There's been very little information. But just knowing him like I know, I'm like, look, he wants to win, obviously. But he's got three Stanley Cups. I think he wants the bigger role. And in Chicago, he's going to be on the top line with Connor Bardard when Badard is healthy. And he knows that. And in Buffalo, he is going to be a role player, which might be better for him,

but it might not be what he really wants because he still thinks he's got it, right? He's still, I mean, he was almost a point-to-game guy in Detroit. He can still produce. And he thinks the game at such. a high level that even though he doesn't have the foot speed he used to have, his game was never really predicated on speed. It was on his vision, on his mind. And I think somewhere in the back of his mind, he's probably thinking, man, if I want to get back to where I was, and I still think I could do that, playing with Connor Bardard is going to be a lot better than playing on the

third line in Buffalo. So I'm, he very well might sign somewhere else completely, but it's a fascinating discussion. It's interesting from Chicago's perspective, too, because Kyle Davidson was ruthless about getting rid of Cain and Taves, right? He wanted to clear the decks so that that the next generation come up and develop into its own leadership. And now that it's Baderd's team, I wonder, Kyle Davidson hasn't talked about this either, if he's comfortable bringing in someone like Cain who does take up so much oxygen in the room, now that Badaard is established and entrenched. I don't know. It's just a fascinating dynamic. He might wind up, you know, in Toronto for all I know, but it'd be really fun. If he's in Buffalo, what a great way that would be to close out his career,

although he thinks he's going to play until he's like 45, and he might at this point. But to come back to Chicago, it would be an amazing story too. I think you also, look, people always get, you know, roll their eyes when we bring this stuff up, but there's always the off-eye stuff with Kane, right? And in Chicago, for better or worse, it's kind of been litigated. It's been addressed. It's been talked about to death. It's been 11 years now since the sexual assault allegation against him was dismissed in 2015.

He hasn't gone through that process in Buffalo yet, and it happened in the Buffalo area. If he goes back to Buffalo, it might not. drag out all season, but he's going to have to answer all those questions again. It's going to come up. It's going to be written about. I don't know if that enters his mind. It's, again, it's a long time ago. But I mean, I know that fans bring it up in every story I write about him and every tweet I make about him, there's still that underlying current. And he's going to have to go through that again if he goes back home to Buffalo. And I just wonder, this is just me idly speculating. I wonder if that plays into his decision at all. I'm glad you brought that up because

it does feel like there's baggage either place. He goes if it's Chicago or Buffalo, right? And And like rightfully so. If the black folks want to say we're turning the page from him and that's that, I don't blame them, right? You end that error. You end that chapter and say the organization has moved on. Bring him back. Kind of like goes against the grain of that. And then if there's Buffalo, there is baggage there.

That is important. And as much as you're going to hear from so many people like, well, it's in the past, well, guess what? Like, it's still part of the conversation because if you're an athlete and you have the privilege to be one and one of, you know, yes, there's a lot of NHL teams. yes, there's a lot of NHL roster spots at the end of the day. Playing at this level is still a privilege. If that is part of that privilege, you have to earn it and prove that you're, you know, you are worth it to join any club. You're worth it to join your hometown team.

And a team now that's finally turned the corners, making all this progress and momentum, that's a very important element of it. So I have, I could see that being a part of the decision making process. And I think, you know, someone with enough character would be willing to take that on head on and show how they've grown and changed, right? because it's not saying someone shouldn't get a second chance, but if you're going to get one and you're going to get one specifically in Buffalo, then explain to everyone why you've earned that and what you've done along the way.

I think that's the big thing here. And I know you know this situation very well. Like you look at what went on in Vegas. That's the big problem. We saw Sean Gentile right about it. Like if you want to ask someone like Carter Hart, like what you've done, now you've had all this time. That's all anyone's asking for.

What have you done to earn your second chance? So as much as it should be for some water under the bridge, it's in the past. And as much as that could be a part of the decision-making process here, if you're going to return to Buffalo, this is going to come up. So it's a really great chance for any person to prove how much they've changed and evolved as a person since that. Yeah, I mean, Black Hawk's owner Rocky Wirtz basically ordered Kane to move to Chicago full-time

in the summer of 2015, all that after that went down. Like he, Buffalo is his past. It's not where he lives anymore. So it'll just be really interesting to see how it plays out. Again, he might end up somewhere else. But if there's a homecoming, it's going to be an interesting. story for a long time. All right, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to get a little more into the Leo Carlson offer sheet. All right, we're back. And I know the Leo Carlson news is a few days old now,

but we haven't had a chance to talk about it. So here we are. We're going to talk about it. You know, you mentioned like why aren't teams going after Connor Bernard right now just to screw up their their cap situation. And I agree 100 percent. Like these GM should be so much more aggressive than they are. But here's where I'm at with this. Are the ducks really screwed? Are we stuck in a flat cap era mentality where we're sweating a few million bucks here, a few million bucks there? I mean, the cap next, next season is going to be, what, $113.5 million? After that, it's going to be $123 million. Is $18 million for a number one center really that big of a deal right now?

Yes and no, right? Because on the one hand, they have their first line center, and this is very important, right? Leo Carlson, especially if he'll get back at the first quarter of the season. And then fast forward to the playoffs, too, because I think he was really great, especially against Edmonton. You saw that superstar capability that he has. He took the leap. He was ready to jump up and he could be that top center that competes with the best of the best, right? Like I think that there's a lot of Leon Drysaddle in his game.

I think that that playoff series specifically against Carlson and the matchup between Carlson and Drysiddle, it was like, these are the traits you need to work on this summer and beyond to become that. Add some more strength on the puck. Add some more strength overall so you can just body players and go through the zone. The way we saw Drysaddle literally do on that game winner in game one against Carlson. and I think all the playmaking and scoring chance creation, like it's what the ducks need. And when you think about where the ducks are at this point, right,

they've spent all of this time. And they went through hell under Greg Cronin and even before that to get to this point, right? They had some fun. And then it was just absolute misery in Anaheim. You get to this point, you're back in the playoff picture. Do you really want to derail your progress and get rid of one of your best players

and hope that one of those first round picks is going to equate to the value of Leo Carlson, whether you trade them or use your own picks, in an offer sheet or use them through the draft and development process and change your entire timeline. Like, you're asking for a lot, especially if those picks are going to be even less valuable because the Flyers, who are already a playoff team without a 1C, now have Leo Carlson. They're even less valuable to you. So in that sense, they're not screwed. It's the 18 million of it all and less because it's him getting it, right? If you're going to overpay anyone,

give it to Leo Carlson. It's that the ducks have put themselves in this situation. And that's where it's so concerning, and it's Pat Brubique's work up to this point. That should have been a priority. That's a core contract, right? You look at what the work Montreal is doing. You look at how Buffalo handled Benson first and foremost this summer. You want those players done ahead of time, but especially ahead of July 1, especially ahead of any trade frenzies, because you want to know how you're going to work your books around your core players. I think a lot of time the highest paid players, and we heard it with the Toronto core 4 era, they're overpaid, you can't do anything. If they're settled soon enough, you know exactly.

what you can spend around them. The Ducks didn't do that here. They went and signed A.J. Greer in a vacuum. Does the contract matter that much? Not really. But now all of a sudden you're up against it, you should be worried about the fact that you just put $4.25 million plus four years, plus some trade protection into a fourth liner when you don't have the money to pay Cutter Gautier. And it's that mentality of Pat Burbik and how he's handled his RFA's that concerns me the most. Last summer, Mason McTavish held out, did not start, was not a part of training camp. fell behind the curve of learning the duck system that relies on so much speed. His skating has always been a flaw, but I think it was just exacerbated by the fact that he was off to such a delayed start, and it felt like he was always playing from behind in Anaheim, and it spiraled the entire year to the point of them trading him.

Well, you had that holdout and you didn't take a more proactive approach here with Carlson. You overpaid Minchikov in the process because you handed him leverage as the offseason progress from trading Zolwiger to losing John Carlson to now the offer sheet situation. So my bigger issue is, does he have what it takes as a general manager to now navigate their way out of this cap situation, make enough subtractions that you can still get cut or grotia, and not completely change your internal pay scales to match the Carlson deal because you don't treat your RFAs correctly or proactively enough? I do think that's the lesson is take care of your RFAs right away. Like the Blackhawks should not be waiting this long for Conradar like what he wants, give him what he wants before it gets worse. I'm with you there. I just, I feel like it's like 18 million, like in year four of this contract, when Leo Carlson's like 24 years old and just freaking rocking it out every night, just awesome, he's going to be like the 11th highest paid player in the league. Because we're going to see so many big contracts now in the week of the soaring cap. You know, Cal McCar is going to get 20 million and he's going to deserve it.

Quinn Mews is going to get 18 million and he's going to deserve it. Connor McDavid is going to get 21 million. He's going to deserve it. Like this is not going to be that bad in a few years when all those chickens come home to Roos and I'm and they've got to start really paying guys. I just feel like we have to get out of the mindset. Like, you know, think about Nathan McKinnon's second contract. What a steal that was because he took the leap in his fourth year instead of his second or third year. He was making like $6 million when Colorado won the Stanley Cup.

Great for Colorado. That's just not going to happen anymore. These guys are taking control of their careers earlier. They're dominating earlier. We're starting to see these guys come in and in their first, second, third year. Celebrini in his first year and Carlson in his second year and Badard in his second year, really taking that leap. these guys are just going to be making this kind of money. And I think we have to, we're all stuck in that early 2020 thing where it's like a million dollars with so much money.

I can't believe you gave that guy that extra $500,000. I just, I feel like the cap dump era is almost over. The cap is going up so much. There's no reason to think it won't. And maybe this is pie in the sky by me. Maybe I'm being naive. But I just, what are the chances? There's another freaking global pandemic that's going to flatten this cap again.

Like, God forbid that that that happens again. I just feel like these contracts, this is what a number one center is going to cost in two or three years and having to pay it. Yeah, is it a little silly that Leo Carlson's the highest paid player in the history of the NHL right now? Yeah. But in three years, I don't think anybody's going to care. Yep. I think that's a really good point because the cap should be going up. Like there's going to be new TV deals.

And could the NHL completely mess this up and shoot themselves in the footer if does your growth? Yeah, it's the NHL. So like, yes, that is part of the picture. But the other half of it is the caps going up, contracts are going up. you know, what makes this one a little bit more difficult is that it's front-loaded. So the years of him, you know, the chance of him reaching that level now versus, say, year four or five, are going to be a little bit more difficult. Like year four and five, when the cap, when his cap comes down a little bit, his market value will be going up and, you know, they could meet in the middle and finally it could all click.

But if he's the guy you're overpaying, it's really not a big deal. It's the, you know, the problem is, again, overpaying all of those other players. So I don't, I don't think this one should be looked at like, oh my God, this. This is the end of the Ducks and their error is already, you know, hurt before it even starts. It's just whether they have the vision to build around that enough is going to be the big thing here because he is one of their best players. He has that superstar capability. And I think that you look at his whole season and I get it, the market value is not going to look as great as it could have after the entire team hit a wall in like the month of January and the ducks completely went off the rails. And that second half matters here, right?

It definitely suppressed his projection moving forward. but if the first quarter of last season is what we're going to see more consistently next year, say it's the, you know, he gets three quarters of that next year. That value is, you know, going to look even better. So it's better to have those contracts that someone can grow into. Of course, the issue is, well, what happens in five years? If he gets 18 now, what could be, you know, if he wants a major raise, that's a five-year problem, right? Just keep that amount of money.

The cat will be like 160 million by then. Who cares? He's going to get $22 million then. Exactly. Like, who knows what'll happen? And maybe he goes, I got such an overpayment now. Like, not every place. player necessarily goes, well, now I need a $10 million raise.

Like, we literally have no idea how that's going to work out. You know, as long as the ducks can keep bringing an entry level talent to offset those bigger costs, I think that they'll be okay. And they have a lot of really deep pipeline that they can keep doing that. You know, it's just as long as this doesn't blow up everything that they've built to this point cap-wise. And if it does, don't blame Leo Carlson for it. Don't blame him for taking that kind of money.

Blame the general manager who let it get to that point. Well, you're 100% right there. But there is like that psychological aspect where, wow, does Leo Carlson not, is he not happy in Anaheim? Why would he sign his contract? And then, you know, you look at Jason, there's all this stuff going on. Like the Jason Robertson trade to Seattle that was next or the one to Columbus where, you know, it got out. These things get out that Thomas Harley would, like the Jim Nill tried to trade Thomas Harley. And Thomas Harley just sits there knowing that now.

And what does that mean for him? Does it make him rethink how committed he? I know he says he signed, but it's like. You know, there's a psychological aspect here. Do the ducks, do his teammates look at Carlson and say, you know what? Good for you. You went out and you got your bag. Or they're like, dude, were you trying to leave?

Are you not with us here? Like, I don't know if we'll ever see any tangible results of that. But that kind of doubt that creeps into a player's mind, into a coach's mind, a GM's mind. And a fan base's mind is a fascinating aspect that I don't think we talk about enough of these things. No, not at all. And with this one specifically, it's funny because I think, you know, maybe if he was on a different team that it was like, oh, look how fun everything is and everything's going great. Like, say he's in Buffalo and everything's great,

palm trees are growing in Buffalo. And then he accepts the money elsewhere. Everyone's like, wow, do you want to? I would understand that doubt creeping in there, especially when you look at like what's happened to them in recent history and the fact that everything's going great there. In Anaheim, I wonder if everyone's like, no, no, no, we get it. We've all dealt with Verbeek.

We understand this, right? We saw what happened with McTavish last year. We saw what happened this year with our IRAs. We know the Cutter-Goti situation. Like, who's to say how that one evolves to? Like, say he holds out. Say that this one drags out longer, not just because the ducts don't clear a cap space, but because they're still going to play hardball with their RFAs

and learn nothing here, no one's going to blame him and be like, yeah, all right. And then the reports come out, right? I forgot who had this and I apologize for that, but that he went to the ducks and said, like, I'll take, you know, here's a contract offer. Here you go, right? It was 15 million. The ducks are like, no. Well, you can't blame the guy then because the market's going up. If you wanted him to be signed for 10 million, 11 million, which would have been a great deal and would have made sense with the coolly comp in mind. You should have had it done before June. You should have had it done before we had the salary projections for next year. You could have had it done last summer.

And I think, you know, maybe the ducks would have wanted to see a little more out of him. That first quarter of the season happens or even as he's going through it and his value starts dipping in January, just throw the contract there. Just get it done then. And you don't get to this point of having to worry about it, right? That's psychological element of it. Just handle everything sooner. I do think that's like, you know, like you said, Verbeek is this old school guy from a different era who sees the game and sees player contracts in a certain way. whereas perhaps a more a younger or more modern focused general manager would be like,

no, this is his prime earning years and this is what he's going to get. And we have to accept that fact. And we're long past the days of three-year bridge contracts coming out of your entry-level deal. You're a superstar. You're a superstar at 21 years old and you want that money. And we're in this age of player empowerment. I'm all for it. And I'm all for the chaos it creates.

It's so much fun to see. And I'm glad to see these guys really taking control of their careers and not cowing to that, you know, hockey first, that team. Like, it's not, it's not against your team to look out for yourself. We have to, we have to kind of accept that you can do both things. You could be a team player and still want to get paid, but you deserve. And I think we're starting to see the NHL players do that. And I think it's long past time. Yeah. And I think the fact that we're getting so many different situations, like, developing at once is going to help to kind of like, build your pay scale of like, is this guy a jerk? Right. Like, like, put it simply.

Leo Carlson, not a jerk for doing what he did. Dylan Larkin, you could make the argument. If you're a Detroit fan and you hate him from this point on, I totally get it. But I would also understand his position of this team has not done enough. It's not just, oh, he wants to go to Florida and he wants to go to Vegas and play with his friends from Team USA, which I'm sure is a part of it, but that's not everything. It's those are general managers who are ruthless and constantly making moves to contend versus the Red Wings who finally make a deadline deal and bring in Justin Falk because they didn't do anything more exciting.

well, you know, they didn't do enough in the offseason. They didn't change their coach soon enough if you go back to last year. They let the penalty kill spiral into the situation it did. You can be upset if you're larkin of your career is passing you by and your general manager is doing nothing despite you giving your all and this team showing promise. Yes, they need to prove something to the Red Wings, but also the manager has to add talent so they can play their best. And then you have, say, I don't know, let's put it at the top of the scale, the Brady Kachuk of it all,

of the I want to be here and I don't know where these rumors are coming. coming from to, I don't know if I want to sign here in two years, and I actually kind of want out and I want to go play with my brother in Florida. Again, if that's what you want to do, you don't want to be the guy in that, you know, so be it. You can go be one of the guys in Florida, have a totally different role, whatever. But if you're saying one thing and then you want another thing publicly, especially when you're the captain of a franchise that finally turns the corner back into the playoff picture and you're one of their most valuable players, plus there's pot shots at the goaltender at the whole time, like, right? That's where the issue is.

So, Leo Carlson versus Brady Kachuk, you have two totally different situations. And I think everyone needs to keep that in mind, right? There's nothing wrong with advocating for yourself. These careers can be cut short at any time. They're short. And we don't know what goes on on the inner workings of teams and why players might be in the position where they feel like they need to advocate for themselves and for more money and what else is going on with other offer sheets being sent his way. But it's totally different from I say, I would say like the Kachuk situation of that's where you should be pissed at your player. You want to talk about screaming into the void. Asking for nuance in a sports debate in 2026. We are we are deluding.

ourselves here, Shana. I know, right? Just put it out quick in a tweet and everyone will get mad over whatever it is. All right, we'll take one more quick break and we'll be back. We'll talk about which teams we should be concerned about in the NHL. All right, we're going to wrap up here with Shana's patented Concernometer, which comes out and the Athletic on Tuesday. Make sure to look out for that. And obviously at the top here, you've got the Dallas stars because we don't know what Jason Robertson situation is. He's got an arbitration hearing on July 25th. It's entirely possible that he gets a one-year deal for a lot of money. And then we go through this whole process again next summer.

But, you know, I'm around the stars a lot. I've been covering them in the playoffs for a few years now. And they've been a true Stanley Cup contender year after year after year. They didn't get any better this offseason. No, not at all. And it's their worst playoff loss in a minute, right? I get it. It's a tough matchup.

You happen to get the Wilde who are one of those, like, true contenders in the Central. If it wasn't Minnesota, it could have been Colorado. It was like a lose-lose situation in that sense. But the fact that they lost and it was their five-on-five offense driving a drawing up again. You go, okay, what are you going to do to change that? Well, here's the guy that was the driver of all that. You go through the regular season, you know, their five-on-five offense was pretty weak. It was the power play doing a lot of the heavy lifting with guys like White Johnson and Miko Ranton and stepping up. But when they needed more five-on-five offense,

it was Jason Robertson. So where are you if you don't have Robertson? Like if you were going to trade him and figure this out, you would have thought, do it sooner. So you had that entire full trade market, entire full free agent market, which wasn't as great. But, you know, the are a phase that were available and got flipped because of the risk of offer sheets. It felt like that was the moment, right? If you're going to do it, do it sooner, if he's not your guy. But even around Jason Robertson, it's like, well, where else did they get better? They didn't make many moves anywhere else.

They lost Maverick Bork, who was never going to be the guy. But was one of those important utility guys, and I think really complimented that top six and has more in the tank to keep growing. So I look at the situation, and I'm just like, what are you going to do now? Like what is the next move? The Robertson situation is unsettled, and it might stay unsettled, even if he gets that one-year deal, that it's going to be hard to build up the fringes of this lineup. They don't have a ton of assets. The prospect pool is not as deep as it once was.

They don't have a ton of cap space. I'm a little bit worried that they're just going to put out the same team as last year. And while that was a contender that we all had, you know, they had so much hype for a reason. It just feels like they still need like a couple little details here to punch it up a level. Yeah, we've been talking so much about how deep and perfectly constructed the stars are for years and for good reason. But Maverick Bork was a 20-gold guy for them last. He's a legitimate top-nine-winner. This is a team that had Justin Ritzkoviant on its top line for a good chunk of the year. We don't know what Tyler Sagan's going to look like.

You know, Jamie Ben is obviously deteriorating before our eyes. You take Jason Robertson off this team, and this is not a contender anymore. This is not, this is a good team instead of a great team. So I think at this point, you have to keep Robertson, whether it's paying him in arbitration or just biting the bulletin. it and figuring something out. I mean, you cleared out some cash by by moving a bork. There is room to sign Jason Robertson. The concern is what the long-term effective that is. But the fact is he's a 15 to $17 million player. He deserves it and you need him. I don't think Dallas has a lot of leverage here. No, they really don't. What helps them is that they know he doesn't want to just

go to a team that's not winning and take the money and run, right? And I- He clearly wants to stay, clearly. Right. So you just have to find that like middle ground of the number. And I get it's easy to say, Well, Miko Rantonin who has Stanley Cup, makes $12 million. But $12 million when he signed it is different than $12 million now. Also, when Rantanin was not the guy in the playoffs this year and Robertson was, he could use that in his favor, right? Like when Rantanin wasn't the guy of five on five and you look at the different ages there too and what his trajectory could be from this point forward, like you have to factor

all that in. It's not outlandish to say, okay, Robertson could make more than Rantanin. Everybody is making more in today's NHL. You have to pay your best players. and if you want him to stay and he wants to stay somewhere where he can win, like, there's got to be a number, even if it's not 15 in Dallas, say that's what Robertson's looking for is that $15 million number, and Dallas wants to keep them closer to rants in its cap, like there's a middle ground to be found here.

And even if they don't go maximum term, right, like say they only go four or five years, it's not the worst move either because let's say in four or five years, the stars still haven't won. They're going to have to do something to punch up this roster that it'll be good to have some contracts that are movable instead of every single player coming in with an eight-year deal that you literally can't maneuver around. I'm glad you mentioned the random thing because it's one of my pet peeves for years. This again goes back to what we were talking about the last segment about, you know, getting out of that flat cap mindset, these artificial salary caps that GMs have where you can't

be higher paid than this guy. It's got to go. Because like you said, the cap is going up so much that $12 million doesn't go. Bowen Byram's making $12.5 million. Sorry, Miko. You signed in the wrong year. you should have waited a couple of years if you could have. That's just the way, and that's why these guys should be signing two or three-year deals only, by the way,

because they would continue to maximize their value. You can't, Jason Robertson is a better player than Miko Ranton right now. He's a better all-around player. He's better on the power play. He's better defensively. I know people think Jason Robertson, because of the Bill Guerin thing, think that he can't play defense. He's a much better defensive player than he gets credit for. The fact is he was a much more valuable player to Dallas last year than Miko Ranton was,

and he should be paid as such. and these artificial salary caps where you can't get paid more than our biggest name, that's got to be a relic of the past, so these GMs are going to fall behind. Yeah, exactly. And if it's not, okay, well, it's within the realm of the cap hit percentage. Okay, have that conversation, right? Like, if this player takes up, say, 11% of the cap, we don't want it, that this guy now takes up 15%. Okay, well, there's a middle ground.

And that, you know, the equivalency is different. I think that's so important to talk about. And obviously it's only year to year, right? Because Rancinin signs the contract. It's not like it started three years ago, which, you know, Those would be massive changes. 12 million, three years later is a completely different value. It's something like incremental.

And I think you have to be aware of that if you're building a team. I don't think that there's necessarily something wrong with saying, well, you don't want to have a $20 million player in today's NHL and trying to, you know, if you want a bunch of guys and it feels like they have superstars, but it's like they have a handful of them. So it's a little bit different than say Edmonton where it's like you have your three, right? It's Bouchard McDavid Drysettled. There's no questions asked.

That's your core. That it is what it is. Don't forget Trent Frederick. Can't forget Trent Frederick. Can't forget giving eight years to Trent Frederick ever. But like, you know, Dallas, it's a bigger by-committee approach. But then again, this is the best player up front of that committee, right? So it's totally different.

And you look at it now, like, Harley's going to make more than Haskinen. Why is no one complaining about that when Hayskinan is the better defenseman? There's also, there's no reason to think Miko Rantan will be upset by this, right? Like, Rantan's never given off any vibes that, I must be the high. This is all artificial nonsense by GMs and owners trying to artificially suppress salaries. That's all it is. Yeah, we just have to move past that.

I also want to hit on Columbus. Poor Columbus, God Columbus. Look, Zach Werencky and the team, Kistin made up. It's one of the weirdest stories I've ever seen to go from, maybe he wants to go to get me the hell out of here. I never wanted to leave in the first place in about a 10-day span. But at least they keep their Norris trophy winning defensemen for now. where is Columbus at?

What can Columbus be and what can they strive for? Well, that's the tough thing because it's like, yes, Zach Wrenski wants to stay for now, but the contract isn't in writing yet. It can't be, right? It's two years out. It can't be. It's very, there's nothing wrong with him saying I need to see what this team's

direction is over the next couple years. Khan of McDavid just did that in Edmonton with the two-year deal. And it makes perfect sense why. And everybody praised him for it. Exactly. Columbus, at this point, do I fully understand him saying it at this very moment? of like, I don't like the team's direction.

Well, the team's directions is the most positive. It's been in a minute. And you're a huge part of it. Okay, sure, concerning. But the other part of it there is, what do you want to see happen over the next year? If the team doesn't do anything, do you want to commit their long term? And again, like Larkin, like, see your career past you back? No.

And there's nothing wrong with that. This is one of the most valuable players in the league right now. This is the best defenseman in the world. He's coming off another incredible season. He has an Olympic gold medal on top of it. He proved that his, you know, You know, his last year was not just a flash in the pan because there have been some durability concerns throughout his career and whether he can do it consistently.

Well, now he is. So if they had to move him, you're getting a haul back as long as he keeps, you know, he doesn't just say I'm only going here, here. And then there's the ticking clock of, well, you only have a couple months to do it. You're not getting anything in return. But I don't think that there's an issue with him saying, I still need to see this direction before fully committing. But he's staying.

Okay, everything settled. The problem is, when this happened, it was the busiest part of the offseason. Did we all see that coming? No. because it never happens. It's usually so quiet. Nothing happens at the draft. Then we get a couple free agent signings. And again, it's all quiet. This year, there was so much going on. It's not like the Blue Jackets didn't make any moves, right, because Marchmont leaves as a free agent, Boon General leaves, but they still bring in a Chushkin. They sign Lomburg. They have another

goaltender in the mix to try to compete for that backup role. But there's no meaningful growth from this team. And a lot of it's going to rely on the young players, the Fantilias, the Marchankos of the world, understandably so it should. But I still think that they need to do a little bit more. after they completely crashed out down the stretch, right? Like, they didn't just fall, slip out of the playoffs by a point or two. They completely flamed out at the end of the year. It was absolutely awful. So I think that you can want that internal growth,

but you still need to make some moves. And it feels like because the Wrenski situation blew up as it did, if you're the blue jackets, you can't look at anything else going on. Like, yeah, sure, you want your managers to multitask. But if you don't know what you're getting back for Wrenski, say he's traded to Toronto. You might be getting Matthew Nisen and some forward prospects. Say he goes to Dallas.

You might be getting Harley. Now you don't need to worry about a new number one D. You just need to focus on your forward group. You can't do anything until that's settled. So it feels like this situation took the blue jackets further out of the offseason picture than they should have been. And now I look at them and I go, so how are you different from last year?

How are you better? Because right now I just don't see it enough. All right. Everybody, make sure you rechain this story tomorrow. To get to that and a lot more, clearly one of the most insightful analysts in the game today. Thanks for listening to the Athletic Hockey Show. The Prospect Series crew have you covered on Wednesday.

breaking down Scott Wheeler's summer top 100 drafted NHL prospects ranking. Thanks for listening.