The Athletic Hockey Show - Why NHL Frozen Frenzy is broken

Episode Date: October 29, 2025

The NHL's 32 teams were all in play on Tuesday night, and Frank, Sean and Sean have solutions on how to fix the execution of the frozen frenzy. The guys ask if Connor Bedard is finally levelling up to Macklin Celebrini's stature and we take a closer look at JT Miller's return to Vancouver, the surprising Penguins start, and the massive contracts Logan Cooley and Thomas Harley signed in the past 24 hours.Hosts: Sean Gentille and Sean McIndoeWith: Frankie CorradoExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff DometWatch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. What up, what up? The Athletic Hockey Show Wednesday edition, where the true frozen frenzy was the friends we made along the way. Sean Jantilly here with Frankie Crato and Sean McIndoo. All three of us watched all 16 games last night, right, boys? All of it. Absolutely.

All over it. I had my full and undivided attention. I actually went to Walmart, old school, H.L. style. I got 16 different screens. You set them up in my living room, and I'm planning on returning 15 of them today well before the 90 days is up. Because that's, you know, that's how you own a TV in the American Hockey League, right? No. You buy a TV.

Yeah, you buy a TV. You go in your calendar. You have to buy it from Walmart. And you go 88 days just to give yourself a little bit of a cushion. You set an alarm and you say return TV today. You return that TV. You go to the electronics session. section. You buy another TV. You bring that bad boy home, set it for another, you know,

whatever, how many days are left in the season? And you rented a TV for free all year in the American art. And Frankie, how many times did you do that over the course of your career? The best one was the first year where I had a roommate where it was so efficient because one guy went to returns, one guy went to electronics, and it just timed that we were walking right back out of the store perfectly. It was great. Just high five on the way out the door and just a sad greeter who sees it all play out and

yeah, do anything to stop it. Don't hate the play. I hate the game, baby. Ethel, Ethel, the 81 year old greeter wearing the smiley face sticker on her vest. Oh yeah, go ahead. Oh, hello. Can I see your receipt, sir? You absolutely can. You certainly can. See you in March, ma'am.

This is why we have a former player in the mix, man. We don't do this We don't do this for the insight on, you know, defensive play or anything like that. We want the low down and dirty on like low grade retail scams that you were running in Abbotsford or wherever this was taking place. New York has never been the same, man. Forget about the five families in New York. That holds nothing to the TV scam that's being run in the American Hockey League and the East Coast

hockey league. People with last names ending in vowels running, running retail scams in the state of New York. That's interesting. Interesting. Weird that that would be happening. Yeah. Weird that that. Let me ask you something since, you know, DGB and I are in Canada. You're in the States. Is there like a, I know they branded it frozen frenzy. Yeah. Like I have the center ice package. So I'm naturally flipping through games all the time. And I had to work a game last night. Like I was on the panel for the 10.30 p.m. Eastern time Habs cracking game. But is there like a red zone, like an NFL red zone for this frozen frenzy where they're kind of flipping back and forth?

There's a power play in the avalanche game. Let's cut here and see what Nathan McKinnon's doing. Do they do that? No, they don't, they don't, Frank. And I think that leads us directly into our issue here with it with this, doesn't it? Like, this is a multi-tiered missed opportunity by the league, right? Like there's so many other things. that's all I could think while I was watching these games last night is how it could be better,

at least in the States. Like if there was some kind of power play for red zones on certain night, which we've seen them edge around, but not quite. If it were marketed a little bit more differently, which is an issue I think that some teams certainly seem to have. If it took place on a night, and I know this is an issue for you guys, if it took place on a night where there was no World Series game, like maybe bump this into no remember, there's a zillion different ways that you could improve this and make it feel like

something rather than just reading NHL marketing materials saying that it's something and turn it into the kind of, you know, single day sports cultural event that they, that they try to convince us that it is, right? Let me ask this. So we're three guys who are hockey fans and do this for a living, when did you realize that it was frozen frenzy time? Because for me, it was Monday morning the day before when I sat down to do the newsletter and I had to do the like, here's tonight's games. And I was like, oh, that's a lot of games. Oh, right. They're doing this thing. So it was about 36 hours beforehand. Were you guys over or under 36 hours? I'm over 36 hours. Like I knew because I had it maybe I'm the wrong guy to ask because when my schedule comes out, I'm like, oh, man, I have a 1030 start in studio for a Seattle game.

That's a tough bounce. And then you realize you look at the schedule like, oh, there's an 11, there's a 6 o'clock. It's the frozen frenzy. Here's where, you know, my whole view on this thing, I'll never fault the league for trying to do something different and market things. So, you know, okay, that's fine. But it almost has the feel as if all the games happen to be on the same night because of arena availability and teams travel. And we just said, let's slap something on this and call it something. And then, you know, we'll market it.

But the issue is not everyone has capacity to watch all these games. And furthermore, not everyone wants to watch all these games. If you're an Ottawa Senators fan, you're probably just watching your Sends game. You don't care about what's going on in the avalanche or the Columbus game. Like there's no reason for you to be flipping through your ESPN app or whatever app you use to watch these games. And watch four minutes here, four minutes here. Oh, commercial break. I'm going to go to the other game because that's every night on the center ice package anyways.

You know, if your game goes to commercial, you can flip somewhere else. So it doesn't feel different. The thing that would make this feel different is if there was someone quarterbacking it. And to Gentilly's point, it's like, hey, there's a power play in the Hurricanes Vegas game. Let's go see what Jack Eichol is up to and cut to that game. And if, you know, like the Philadelphia Pittsburgh game, that was crazy. Like there's fireworks in that game. You have to go and catch up with that and see what's going on.

That's what would make it a frenzy, like a dedicated stream where it's someone's in the studio and they're throwing the ball to all these different games as notable things are are happening, that's where the opportunity is. Not, you know, relying on people to cut away from their team's game to just say, oh, I watched, you know, parts of 12 different games last night. It's just not realistic. We need Scott Hanson. Scott Hans.

Like, look, Red Zone, NFL Red Zone is my favorite television show ever in my life. I think it is the greatest, most unimpeachable creation of sports. media ever. So if we could get something 20% of that. And I get that hockey's, hockey's different. It's, it's not as, you know, football lends itself better. But here's, here's the secret of Red Zone. Okay. People hear the concept and they think, oh, they just go to whatever game, you know, people are close to scoring. And they do. But they also spend a lot of time showing you stuff that just happened. So a big play happens in the Steelers game. And, and here's They don't come in and go, oh, a big play, you know, D.K. McCaff just scored a touchdown in Pittsburgh.

Let's show it to you. They just cut in. And you're watching this game going, okay, well, why am I on this game? Is something about to happen? Is this just the game they picked? And then a big play breaks out. And you go, wow, that was great. And then they cut to something else. And you never know, like, is something about to happen? You could do that in the NHL, right? Like, you could, okay, Sydney Crosby just scored. Go back 45 seconds before and just drop them into Pittsburgh. And you just be sitting there watching hockey all night with something always happening. I really think it could work. It doesn't need to be structured around the power play either. It doesn't. Everybody says power play because that's the Red Zone equivalent. And certainly you can't. There's nothing wrong with saying, hey, the Oilers are going on the powerplay.

Let's just watch these guys fling the puck around for a while. That's what Red Zone turns into at some points. because it's like, all right, there's nothing going on in this other game except for the fact that the Vikings are inside the 20. So we'll go look at that. But that doesn't mean that they're just going to default to that every single time. I don't even like Red Zone that much. That's the thing.

Like, I'm not like a red zone. Look at him. Look, he's getting all worked up. I'm not a Red Zone. This is twice in two weeks, man. Don't do this. Why was this not the primary ESPN broadcast last night? That's my question.

Like some version of what we're talking about here, why was that not what we were watching on ESPN? That's what turns it into something that grabs the casual fan. Because the NHL is such a locally based product still. And Frankie, you said this. Like, Sense fans are watching the Sends game last night. But if you market it as like, here's a different product, not just a day in the schedule that has a different name.

Like, how is this any different than hockey night in it, or like hockey day in the United States or whatever BS they do like on the way? It's not. It's a marketing opportunity. The staggered starts is what makes it different, but who cares? The fact that a game starts at six o'clock, like who cares? It doesn't matter. They're so focused on the staggered start portions of it when that's something that doesn't

matter to anybody and less on the fact that all 32 teams are playing. Like, that's the gimmick. Not that, not that there's a game that starts at 615 and then one it's, and then one at 630 and it goes on throughout the night. Who cares? That's basically what a normal Thursday night is like on, on the NHL schedule. And I know because I know because I have to sit there and watch that schlock every, every, every week in October and November, you know, for power-ranking stuff. I know. I'm flipping around between 14 games throughout the course of the night. That's not any different. It's a failed opportunity.

And you know what happens when you flip around through 14 games like that? You'll catch a guy on one shift and be like, oh, so-and-so, yeah, he's not playing well. He just saw one shift. How do you actually know? And to your point. That's the trick. That's absolutely the trick, too. And that's the trap that a lot of people fall into who do the kind of stuff that we do,

is they watch, you know, Andres Fetchnikov on a power play yesterday and think, that he's fixed or whatever because he scored. That's like not necessarily true, right? And we'll talk about that. It's some point on the line. It's tough to get a read because to your point, the 6 o'clock game, who cares? Because the 7 o'clock game on a regular night, Eastern time, right, just bleeds into the 8 o'clock game.

You don't do anything specific to like, say, oh, I got to watch the 8 o'clock game. Then there's the mountain time games at 9 while your 7 o'clock game is still going. And if that's your team, well, you're still watching it. And then by 10 o'clock, you've watched three hours of hockey. You might watch a period. You might not. And, you know, furthermore, the Pacific Coast teams, like if you're in Vancouver, you didn't really care to tune in at 3 p.m.

And watch Calgary versus Toronto. You're just watching your Canucks and you're watching Thatcher Demko stand on his head as J.T. Miller returns to Vancouver. Like, that's it. And that's it. You're right. It is very local. The opportunity with the frozen frenzy is to,

to make a dedicated studio show that doesn't have to be power play based, but it just, it goes to the different games at the right times. And that's, that's what makes it a frenzy. It feels frantic. And the red zone effect is, you've sat there for whatever it is,

seven hours, you've watched all this football, you've neglected your family, your wife, your kids, and you're now, you're in one, and you have to find your way out of it.

That is the red zone effect. And it happens to millions of men across North America every week. And it's glorious. It's amazing. But, Sean, you said it. It's the casual fan that they should be grabbing with this, trying to, right? It's this idea of, hey, maybe you're not a diehard hockey fan. Because if you're a diehard hockey fan, you're sitting and watching your team tonight.

Give us three hours or four or five, you know. Or maybe it's more, we'll be here all night. drop in whenever you want. That's it. We'll feed you. Don't worry, little baby birds. We're going to feed you as the night goes on, but you're going to love it. And maybe that will be the thing that sparks and you're like, man, I should give hockey a chance.

Or I used to love this sport. I kind of fell out of it when everyone stopped scoring for 20 years. But maybe I'll give it another shot. That is what you, that's what the goal should be, you would think. But then you don't go up against. the World Series, which is the other piece of this. And look, I'll offer the NHL a little bit of a defense here in the sense that having this go on, having any sort of event go on while a Canadian team is in the World Series

is a disaster. Nobody thought that was going to be the case when they're drawn up the schedule. I don't think anybody was like, oh, boy, you know, what if the Blue Jays are playing the Dodgers in the World Series? That was, that's bad luck. for the league. But also, I mean, they, you know, why was it on a Tuesday night? Not on a Monday night. Well, because they wouldn't want to go head to head with the NFL. It's not bad. It's not bad luck. It's not bad luck. It's bad decision making. Like, I'm sorry.

Like, the fact of it. Do it sometime when you can have the floor to yourself and you get to be the star of the show. And yeah. And you push it and you push it a little bit further. Say, and I, and look, we have to preface all this stuff. I say, in making schedules is different. call it. And the fact that, you know, that they get something that makes sense together every year is like half a miracle. It's, it is true to some extent. But push it further in the schedule. Have it in a November when people aren't thinking about baseball, when maybe college, like college football is less of a thing in the States. Get it further into the schedule so it can be this restart moment, this welcome to the season moment for the casual fan, to the extent that it exists for the

have a moment where they can sit down and be like, this is when everything starts. And then you can use the studio show as an opportunity to school people on things that have happened on the schedule up until this point, right? If you're on ESPN and if it's John Bucigras with Greg, or whoever it is, it doesn't matter. It's T.J. O'Shee and Kevin Weeks and Steve, whatever,

pick your poison of combinations there. Whenever stuff that happens last night, like we saw in the Flyers Penguins game. Justin Brazzo scores. And this is the game I was watching. So this is the example. So forgive me for this. Justin Brazo scores last night.

Justin Brazo has very randomly been a major part of the start for one of the most surprising teams in the league. The Penguins, a marquee franchise with a legend of the sport who were supposed to suck out loud from the jump this season to the point where we're talking about them being a bottom three, bottom five roster, fans are talking about Gavin McKenna, yada, yada, yada. We know that that's not what's happened. And it's a compelling story.

Justin Brazo, big example for why that's happened. Justin Brazzo scores last night. You know, you can run that back, have the Brazo package from that game, and then say, like, look, this guy is a big reason that the penguins have been as much of a shock as they've been. And you hit that throughout these games and have it be the gateway into hockey season for the casual fan, right? And as it stands, it's just like, it's a scheduling quirk and not anything else. It's got a funny name and there's no substance behind it. I'll also look at it from the players point of

view. Like, the players don't care about TV broadcast schedules and all these, these things. And I could hear the criticism while the TV revenue is what drives the salaries and that's why guys make so much. Totally understand that. And guys are very willing to fulfill their obligations. But, you know, you start saying that, yeah, you're going to play a six o'clock game. So now your, your days screwed up or you're going to play an eight o'clock local start because we have to have the staggered time. And guys like start to, I don't know, start to shake their head. They're like, why do we got to get inconvenienced just because you got a stagger starts

and where you're like your show pony for it? Let's just play seven o'clock. Like we know what a seven o'clock game looks like. And yeah, there's weekend games that are at 12 and at, one and at three and everyone accounts for those types of things. The weird one, though, for players is when a 12 o'clock start, a 1 o'clock start, a 3 o'clock start, you know how to adapt and pivot to that. It's fine. Like you just do a different morning routine. The 6 o'clock start is weird because now your nap isn't as long. It messes with your morning

skate timing. Like when you come back to the rank, like that's the weird one for guys where it's not enough to completely change your your day, but it's enough to just just mess with you a little bit. Frankie's at Walmart stealing an alarm clock now to help them. Yes. I'll get that going. Exactly. Cassio.

You know what I would do it? Let me throw this. It fell off a truck. He didn't see anything. Let me throw this at you. What about doing it this year, at least, the day you come back from the Olympics, the first time. because everyone's

everyone's got to play, right? I mean, so you don't have to worry about well, the night before, because that's another part of this, right? There was almost nothing on Monday and there's one lousy game tonight. And we always see this, right?

When the Olympics or Four Nations this year, it gets the casual fans. They get hooked. And then we all go, wow, hockey's big. And then nobody watches when it comes back because the first game back is, you know, Winnipeg against Columbus and who cares? So do it then and be like, all right, you loved the Olympics.

Let's get you back in. Give us one night to get you back into the NHL. And I don't know. I'm just getting a call. Gary, Gary Betman? Oh, hey, no, no, DGV, he'll be on with you after we're done the pod. He's got it. Yeah, no.

Gary, Gary heard your idea. He loves it. He's all over it. Tell him to text me. He knows he's got the number. He knows where to find you. But Gary's problem is, according to, to Pierre, his owners don't like this idea either, which is this is where the rage in me

that wants to say, like, wants to, you know, crap all over the league goes, wait a second, hold on. If the owners are crying about this because it doesn't, you know, it doesn't fit, it's hard to sell tickets and all that. This is where I start to go, you know what? I hope they do it every week if these guys are going to be. Totally. That speaks to something Frankie said, too, though, honestly.

where players are like, what is the point of this? Like, what TV revenue? Like, you guys understand that on some level. Yeah. Right? It doesn't do anything for TV revenue. It doesn't help. There's no...

It's all cooked in. The deals are already done. They're all cooked in. Everyone's going to play their allotted and obligated games. And the thing about... The other thing about being a player, right? Like, hockey night in Canada is such a big deal, right? Like, the Leaf game is usually the marquee game.

There's the late game. But... For any player that's playing a game on like a Saturday night, in their head, their game's the biggest game. If you're Detroit versus St. Louis, that's the biggest game in the NHL. Why? Because we're playing it and there's 20,000 people watching us. You know what I mean? So like you're not, just like the owners who don't necessarily care what's happening in the other markets with this game. They just want to market their game, sell the tickets the best way they possibly can. can just like the players don't want to be messed with and just want to play the seven o'clock game and have their normal routine. And if you're a Carolina Hurricane's fan last night or whatever, you're like, wait, my game started at 630.

Like, I missed the first period because I was making dinner for my kids. Like, well, like, there's no, like, your mistake right there. Are you dedicated? Are you on board or not? I kind of believe, I kind of believe that you feel that one. So can we, can we read the, the peer? Yes, quote, right? This is Pierre Lebrun himself.

He says, I would imagine most hockey fans love Frozen Frenzy last night, not sure how they couldn't. Pierre, listen to the podcast and we'll get you caught. But I did get some grumbling from some NHL team execs, some not happy with start times and how it's a tough sell in their market, etc. That's the most NHL quote ever. Yeah, the fans probably loved it, but. and then, you know, here's why we don't want to do it because it's hard for me personally.

It comes back to my point. Did the fans love it? I don't think so. The fans just watched their team's game like they would on any other nights. It was no difference for them. It's the same thing. It's the same thing I always say on Thursday.

And me and Shane of Goldman have had this conversation before because she's like the queen of stagger the starts by five minutes. You said nobody cares about staggered stars. I was like, uh-oh. Uh-oh. I know one person who does.

That's a media thing. Fans want their games to start when they know they always start. They don't want to have random 725 starts when they're when their stuff usually starts at 7. They don't want it. The Ottawa senators and the Chicago Blackhawks started at 754 central time. What is that? What is that? How does a casual, a casual fan is going to realize that?

Like, what if you just wanted to pick up tickets? You're like, I'm going to go catch the Hawks game tonight. You're parked outside the United Center. Like, sir, the game starts in two hours. What the hell do you do outside the United Center for two hours? Nothing good. Should go vandalize the Bobby Hall statue? I don't know, man.

I don't know. But you're right. Like, that's one of those goofy start times. And the players, they don't love that. I don't know. I think we've stumbled on an actual solution here, honestly. over the last 22 minutes or however long it's been of us whining about this to varying degrees. I think it's a combination of all these things that we have discussed where you push it a little bit further into the season.

You blow it out more from a marketing standpoint. You create a dedicated feed on ESPN or pick the TV partner of your choice. And you have it after the Olympics. There is no reason not to do that. every team could play on the first day coming out of the break. It could be the welcome back moment for the casual fans. Like my mother during the T.J. O'Shee shootout game against U.S. My mom couldn't care less about this.

And he's like, oh, who's T.J. O'Shi? She sees shots of his kids and his wife and his family and knows that he scored a big goal and thinks like, oh, that seems like a nice young man. Come back from the Olympics, there's going to be some version. of T.J. Oshy on one team or another and have that be the welcome point, right? And it's just, they're not going to do it. You're not joking, though. Like, that's how you get different demographics of fans, like just a non-hockey example. We're watching the Jays go to the World Series, me and my wife. And she's like, she didn't care about the game. And then afterwards, once they're doing the interviews

and she sees the wives and the little kids, I go to change it. She's like, no, no, no, leave this. This is what I want to watch. Like, I want to know their stories, right? Like, storytelling is always at the crux of it. Any way you can find a way to, to mix that in, that's what compels people. And that's what gets people attached. It's not just guys in a jersey executing four checks. I thought it was funny names. I thought that's what got people. Funny names. A literative names for some made-up thing. Nobody seems like in the first place. Take a break. All right, we're back.

Everybody, everybody calm. Yeah. Everybody, everybody re-centered themselves. We're okay. After that. Did a little breath work, so I'm feeling all right. I got a crazy stat for you guys. I don't know if you want to hear it.

I don't know if you saw this making the rounds on Twitter yesterday. But Tom Wheelander, first round pick of the Vancouver Canucks in 2023, right-handed defenseman, made his NHL debut last night. he is the first right-handed defensemen to be drafted by the Canucks and make his NHL debut with the organization since. Sean McAndew, guess, please. This one, I can, I can go obscure, but I can't go Canucks defenseman level of obscure because are you kidding me?

You can't go drafted Canucks right-hand defenseman level of obscurity? Yeah, no, not alone. I mean, it doesn't go back to the 50s, so, you know, that's my wheel has. Let me take you guys back to the year 2011 when your boy was drafted and made his debut in 2013. That's the last time. A right-handed defenseman who was drafted by the Canucks made his debut with the organization. It was me. Do you know how sad that is?

And before that it was Biaxa. I thought that was maybe the worst that was worse than the fact that you were the last one was that there was that much between Biaza and you. BXA in 01 drafted. Me in 2011 drafted debut. And this kid in 2023, that was scary. That is very scary stuff. I don't know if it's like that. How are you guys any good in that stretch where you only had you and BX as drafted right shot?

Like, how do you sustain a half decent team with that? You know who was the saving grace for all that was the Dan Ham Hughes trade, Chris Tanev, free agent signing, like left-handed shot, Alex Ed, like those were the real guys. I was just, I was just there. But that's a crazy stat, crazy stat. So Tom Wheelander played.

Good for him. Congratulations. Do you have like a big sign at your house like days since the Canucks? And you had to like go and reset it down to zero? Was that to? Yeah, yeah. It was, I was holding on to it very dearly.

Did you know that before you saw the stats? Like were you, have you ever heard that tidbit before? Or was this something where you just like, you lost the record the same day you found out you had it? I found out yesterday and I tweeted out at Grady. I'm like, that can't be a real stat. And someone actually asked Grock or Groke or whatever the Twitter AI. I think it's pronounced Grewk. Yeah.

Well, there we go. O for three. Someone has Gruk and Grook confirmed it. So it has to be real. Grunk was like, I actually, Gary Carter was the last, the last one. Frankie, did someone, did someone at you with that? Yeah. Because I got, I got like someone pointed it out and told me to bother you about it.

So I unfortunately got the, got Frankie's trivia bit spoiled for this week. Yeah. Yeah, man. No, someone, someone pointed it out. So anyways, congratulations to him. Weird, kind of weird, just we'll touch on it really quickly. Vancouver in the morning. they were doing like red line blue line sprints after their morning skate and then they came out that night and they had no juice.

I wonder why. But the guy that did have juice was Thatcher Demko. And he played great last night. Like Vancouver couldn't score. We know scoring's been an issue for the Rangers, but Thatcher Demko was really, really good. And like that guy continues to kind of prove to people that he's good. Like he's healthy. He's able.

Man, that is. that is significant for sure. I also loved what Drans wrote after the game. It was J.T. Miller-centric, but specified that at the end of the game, obviously the Rangers are pretty well in control there. He had a chance to ice it with an empty net or passed up on that.

I had a chance to line up Elias Pedersen and hit him, did not do that. I thought that's kind of an interesting subplot throughout that game is the J.T. Miller of it all because that's still, man, that's going to be compelling, I think, for as long as he's in the league and for as long as the Canucks are kind of in the overall state that they're in, I think that's going to be a compelling, a compelling narrative is that you got J.T. Miller in New York and then Elias Pedersen and company in Vancouver kind of running on parallel tracks. Two very, very, very mediocre teams

really since the trade. It's interesting. New York. coming off a performance where they were no good against Calgary, right? Like that was just nowhere close to good enough. It just felt like it was, there's bigger things at play for them, right? Like, I think the Rangers realized we don't have time for subplots and revenge. We got to take care of our own backyard and we got to win games here because it's been, you know, it hasn't exactly been a banner start for the Rangers, put it that way. Are we worried at all about what it says about the Canucks that they were that flat for that

game. Like is there, I'm not even saying Miller specifically, but is there not a part of you that knows the history there and knows that, you know, why people are watching this game and going, like, all right, Pedersen's our guy, man. Let's, let's make sure we have a good showing tonight and kind of show that this is our, and instead it's not that. Well, you know, you know what makes it always better when Quinn Hughes plays. Like when Quinn Hughes plays, it's like, hey, we got the puck. We're forechecking. We're, you know, we're, we're doing stuff when he doesn't play. It's flat.

And we're just, we don't have the same kind of, you know, the same kind of juice with, with the puck and getting the puck back. Like that, he makes such a difference. He's, he's such a, you know, he changes the course of the game so often. So, yeah, that's, you're right, though. You're definitely right about it. But it just, it didn't feel like it was that, that intense for them. They just didn't have the puck as much either.

I think one of the other big takeaways from last night, the frozen frenzy slate, again, everyone loves it, everyone's really into it, was from that 755 local start in Chicago, right? Connor Bedard, first hat trick of his career, which is kind of wild, 12 points in 10 games. It's early, blah, blah. We preface everything with silly stuff like that, even though we're almost a month into the season. there are things that have happened with him over the last couple weeks, though, where it feels like maybe something's getting unlocked here. I think he was he was kind of, kind of prickly, kind of bristly after that game against the Kings last week,

where he says our power plays terrible, makes fun of the Kings for playing boring, which I think is what I think is accurate. That was a compliment at the time. Accurate and kind of complimentary, but I also kind of appreciate that he said it. I think those are the kind of things, though, that you're looking for from Connor Bedard is, like, is, yes, games like last night, but also something, something a little bit more intangible, something, something a little bit more experiential when you're like, all right, this is, this guy's starting to feel like something else is taking place there. Do you feel like he's maybe getting a little sick of Macklin Celebrini?

That's right. Over the last couple weeks and now he's the new face and he's the guy and get out of here, Connor and all of this stuff. You think maybe he heard a bit of that? I 100% agree. And, okay, think about this, right? So he doesn't go to the men's worlds. Celebrini goes. All anyone can talk about is Celebrini's rubbing shoulders with Crosby.

They're working on face-offs. They're best friends. They're attached at the hip. You know, what's Connor Bedard doing that entire time? By his word, he's getting ready for. this season, right? Like, didn't want to go to the men's worlds because he knew he had, he had work to do and he wanted to use that time in order to call it, like, get a little more acceleration, a little more foot speed, and refine some of his skills and see if it can

translate this year. And the one goal he scores last night where he carries the mail, end to end, slices and dices through the neutral zone, and has that twisted wrist shot where he pulls it right in close to his body and still has enough leverage on his stick to snap it past Allmark. Like that's why he needed that extra time. And that's like the embodiment of what he was working on. He wasn't saying I just need the rest and I'm going to go refresh and I'll take a trip to Cabo and I'll put my feet up and then I'll do my old 16 week routine.

This guy was like this guy was in the lab grinding, man. like, you know, the old, the old Kobe, Kobe, you know, grinding in the gym. You wasn't with me grinding in the gym. Like, that's what Bedard was essentially doing. Dard was grinding while Celebrini was just jet setting around, taking photos and all of this. No, it's not. We're going to make this happen. We're going to make.

Where was? Where was worlds? Where was worlds? Yeah, it's, it's, like, Bedard used his time correctly, man. And now he's, he's faster. He's carrying the puckmore. He's got another. element to his shot, which was already good to begin with, but give the guy a lot of credit, man.

He kind of called his shot and said, I need to do this, and now we're seeing the results. And he hates Macklin Celebrini. It despises him. We're going to make this happen. These two guys hate each other. It's a magic and bird thing for the new era. And they, yeah. Celebrini was hanging out in Sweden and Denmark during the summer last season.

Having FICA. Nice vacation. Weird. weird pickled fish and working on his Instagram like the kids these days cared more about that and Connor Bedard was just in a

he was down in a windowless room just bench pressing and does Bedard does Bedard in his start make you think about the Olympics a little bit? I think it has to right like there's some guys like you know I don't know Sam Bennett

hasn't gotten off to a great start in Florida no no he's not there's maybe guys that he goes a little slow like there there could be some some openings and it could be movement man I just don't want to be in a situation where you're one goal short and you don't have it is it given what we know about the Olympics and what we know about coaches and executives is it possible that there's room for badard and celebrini on team Canada I think that was that's the question it felt a couple months ago like it was an either or a proposition right now I don't know

know if it is anymore because Sellebrini too, he started a little, like a little, at least a little bit slow, but then he, you know, caught fire over the last little bit, has that incredible game against the Rangers where he has five points also just makes a sick, he wins a puck battle to set up Will Smith for the game winner in that, in that one, right? Like, this is just like the full package, Macklin Sellebrini. So as Baderd has seemed like he's, he's found something, Celebrini is kind of moving in lockstep. And it feels like it's not an either or thing. for them anymore. Whereas in the summer, I kind of would have, you know, not

knowing anything, I would have kind of something. But I mean, if you bring both guys, then at least one of them's got to be getting a regular ice time. Like, you can hide one forward, but, you know, and do you trust that? Or would you rather have the 33 year old slow plotting guy who's not going to make mistakes? And the other thing is

can you bring both of them, given that they hate each other? Well, in your, that, that'll be your next newsletter. Why do these guys hate each other? Yeah. And we bring it back or I, Frank, I don't know when the next time the sharks and hawks play, but I think they just got to go, go off the opening face off. Get it settled out. That's, that's the frenzy. The issue is not that both those guys don't deserve to be on the team based on the way they played. It's who comes off the team. And other guys, like, I don't know, can you have, can you have Bedard, Celebrini, Suzuki, Robert Thomas, Tom Wilson,

Is that five guys that weren't on the team last year? You know, those are all guys that are in the mix. We sure Robert Thomas is on that. Well, yeah, St. Louis, another loss again last night. Like, that's, they're working through some stuff like in a big way. So, yeah, like, anyways, there's a handful of guys that would deserve to make this team. On a team that won gold at four nations or, you know, won the championship. It's not like this was a disappointing team where you go, we got to.

mix it up a little bit. And we know hockey executives and coaches and everyone, decision makers love to stick with what is working. So, uh, yeah, how much churn is there even going to be? Something to watch too.

Connor Bardard's head coach, Jeff Blasheel, very, very tight with John Cooper. They're close friends. They coach together for, for a while. That's gonna,

that's an interesting wrinkle kind of, kind of mixed, kind of mixed in there. Jeff Blaschell, American. Could, could he be, maybe he'll lie.

Maybe he'll lie to John Cooper and say like, yeah, he's a little lackadaisical in the neutral zone, right? Like, you should probably leave him at home. Got to ask the question. You know who I'm a fan of, American coach? Who? Dan Muse. I'm a fan of Dan Mews. He knows what he's doing.

Have you dealt with him at all, Frank? Well, just a little bit because he coached Hudson, Lane Hudson, at the program. So before one of the games, when he was with the Rangers, we just got some info from him, talk to him. But man, smart hockey guy, is doing well with Pittsburgh. And that was a crazy game last night, man. Like, how do you even start to break down what happened? Because if there were, like, the frozen frenzy, that should have been the game.

That was like front and center with all kinds of crazy stuff going on. Crosby can't even take the shoot out because he gets kicked out. he gets a misconduct. There's a bunch of goals called back. That was nuts, man. That was crazy stuff. I think my favorite part of it was Trevor Zegaris going after Noel O'Hari when he was down on the ice after that scrum. Like Zegris Zegaris came in late.

He got a couple pops like to the back of the head. Atari was like otherwise engaged on the ice on the ice with someone after that after that scrum. And I'm happy for Trekkers. Ziegress that Nol Achari didn't get what he was looking for after he got back off after he got back off the ice. There was some there were there were there was some anger there there was it was chief little kid shot little kid stuff from from Zegris and it Achari didn't appreciate it. You know what that was that was the guy who has the loud bark at recess and always goes hold me back like he throws a jab and he's like hold me back they won't

let me go. They won't let me. They know. They know once I, here's what I wonder. You know, I don't know, like, are the penguins going to fool themselves now? Are they going to think that, hey, we did it. The band is still here. We're a good team. There's going to be some kind of market correction on the pens. Like, they might not, they're not going to be a 700, you know, winning percentage. You don't think they're going to be a 727. Right. Right. But they could be, they could be based on the start that they've had and how much

they've banked already and they're getting good goaltending. They could be a 555 team, 565 team. Division might stink. If Columbus takes a step back and the Rangers stay in the mud, that division's not any good. And if that happens, do they fool themselves and say, well, we're going to trade someone for the here and now so we can kind of make the playoffs? There's no way. There's no way they can do that.

If anything, you've got to look at the start that Malkin has had on that expires. contract and make a really tough decision because that's what's going to set you up now for your future. Is there no way when if you're Kyle Dubas and when Sydney Crosby comes in and says, okay, you said you were going to sit back and evaluate. You said you wanted to see. We all knew what you met. You were waiting for us to face plant so you could trade Rust and Raquel and guys like that.

We delivered. We gave you a contender. Now you hold up your end of the. the bargain and you help us out in what might be my final shot at doing something here in Pittsburgh get out there and get us some reinforcements i think ricard rakel's injury is very fortuitously time for kyle dubus in that regard because he's going to be out for six weeks eight weeks right you let those guys play it out you see what happens eight weeks from now is we're going to be at christmas ricard rquel comes back if they're still in the mix if they're if we're still

talking about them as, you know, some kind of factor in the playoff race. You said, great, here's your guy. You got Ricardo Kell back. We're not, we're, you know, go win some games. There is your trade deadline reinforcement. I don't, I don't see any way that Kyle Deuvis sells anything of, of importance down the stretch. I don't, I don't think you, I don't think you will.

I, I, it would, it would take a sea change, if anything, to, to, to motivate him there. If anything, this is great for the pens and dubus because now, not that, not that people thought Malkin's game was like falling off a cliff or anything, but if you, you're watching a player like, turn back the clock a little while ago. And if there's a contender that needs a center iceman, which is probably a lot of contenders, actually, because everyone needs a center iceman. The value for Malcon is more than it was, you know, even a couple years ago. So you can cash in on something like that if you wanted to do that. They got some good young pieces. Like the two goalies now, the kid that's playing in the minors, Murashav, he's playing great.

Like, all reports are great on him. Sheelves has been good. Like Brunich and Kindle, it's a chance these guys are staying all season. Who knows? But, I mean... She loves... He won that game last night for them. Like, he...

That was a whole lot of him, I think. They're going to lose 10 and 14 here in a second anyway, so it really doesn't matter. We can get this conversation in while we can. Well, when they do that, they'll come back to reality a little bit. But they're well positioned now to sell a piece that'll help them in the future than they were prior to them playing this well. For sure. Because the guys that they need to move are the guys that are moving the needle for the team.

We also got our first batch of Bronman rankings post like from the start of the college or whatever, the college and junior seasons that dropped today. So if you're a Pittsburgh Penguins fan who's listening to this or some other, you know, theoretical bottom feeder who can, who, you know, wants to see what's going on with Gavin McKenna and in, whoever else, the prominent rankings are helpful because it's probably time to learn about, about the two, three, four, five players in it in this draft, um, which I think is, which I, which I think is helpful. But yeah, I'm still, you know, the penguins are, are a good watch. I think people are around here are certainly enjoying that, but I'm, and Dan Mews absolutely knows what he's doing.

And I think there's some interesting pieces on that team. But yeah, I'm going to go on a limb and say that 727 hockey isn't happening, all that much longer here. We'll see. No, no. All right, boys. Frankie, what's up with you for the rest of the week? Do you have any other late night games or what? We got a little late night stuff, sports center for the rest of the week.

Dan, nana, dan, da, and then Halloween. Halloween with the kids. they're both going to be dressed up as baby cows. Why? Because the costume was $20 each. And there's two of them. So that means the costume was $40. Did you keep the receipt, man?

It's fine. That's where I draw the line. Okay. Electronics, no problem. Baby cow costumes, not sending that back. They don't got Walmart's out there anyways. It's fine. See them, boys. Enjoy the rest of your week, bud.

Talk to you soon. Me and McIntyre back with what we learn next. Right, there goes Frankie. Off to a Walmart in Vaughn, Ontario or wherever to go sell back some stuff that he fraudulently bought. Some stuff that he found is going to be. Don't get on Facebook marketplace with Frankie. That's potentially advice. He's aware of the return policies for various retailers, let's say.

Can I get store credit on this? Frankie asks. Yeah. It went on sale after I got it. How does that factor in? We work this out, please. Sean, we learned something while we were recording that first segment. We did.

Yeah, that's always fun. What have we learned, Sean? Logan Coolly is a $10 million player. Incredible. Shout out to the West Meflin PA legend himself. Logan Coolly, one of the best young centers in the game. Signs for eight years. $10 million per with the Utah mammoth.

that's a big in third highest contract coming out of entry level in NHL history according to our guys CJ and Pierre which is which is wild Dom characterized it on Twitter as a deal that looks large on paper but the odds that it ends up being team friendly are pretty are pretty good I think that's the way I feel about it too like there is some amount of sticker shock and I think that's my big takeaway here would okay that or the Thomas Harley deal which did you, were you most surprised by this? He got eight times ten in a bit.

I think those kind of work in tandem. And I think it's something we need to remember moving forward. And I know we've said this in some capacity before, Sean. Like, we got to recalibrate. We have to change our internal valuations on how much players are worth, how much good players make, what constitutes a good deal versus a great deal versus a poor deal. The number's going up.

That's just the way it goes. So the fact that Logan Cooley, as I truly, one of the five best, let's say, young centers in the league or five most promising centers like in that age group, we'll say, $10 million is reasonable. And Thomas Harley has, you know, is he Dallas is number one? No, that's because of Merrill Haskin. But he's certainly number one caliber in a lot of respects. Signing him for 10.5 and change is, that's the cost of doing business. And that's how much these dudes cost moving forward. And I think there is to some extent, whether it's media, whether it's fans, you see

these deals and you say like, oh, okay. A lot of years, a lot of money. But that's just the way it is now. And it's because the cap's raising. And you can't look at somebody who signed three, four years ago. No. You know. That's Apple.

Darley's making more than Kale McCar. Yeah. Yeah. It's apples the bowling balls at this point, man. It's just not a valid comparison. But here is the thing. Because once we knew that the cap was going up and by how much, I think all of us at least in theory said, okay, we know salary is going to go up. We're still seeing some sticker shock.

It still takes some getting used to. But we knew they were going up. What surprises me, I really wondered if in this environment, if we would see guys in their prime say, I'm not doing eight years. I'm not doing eight years because, you know, with the cap going up year and year, like I, I, I, I, I don't want to lock in on a deal that might have sticker shock in year one. And by year six or seven, I'm way down the list given where the cap is. And we're still seeing guys. NHL players love signing eight-year deals that take their entire prime.

They just, I'll do it once. And look, nobody's sitting there going like, oh, poor local only 80. million. Gosh, he's, you know, that $81 million yacht he's not going to be able to get now. Obviously, these guys will do fine. But just purely from, you know, maximizing your value, I don't think it makes a ton of sense, but clearly, uh, they don't agree with me. Here's what I'll say for Cooley. Statistically, it takes him through his prime. Sure. We all know that's 27 or 27 in a half or whatever, wherever the number stands right now. Still an extreme.

a young dude still potentially getting paid when he's 30 let's say that money is going to be out there then i i for coolly it makes more sense to me than it does with other guys because he's going to get a significant raise on what the bridge deal would have been to take him from you know 22 to 27 so i think there's i think he's making enough up front there to make it less um i don't want to say egregious but less annoying to see like someone someone lock it in that long like i i think there i think there's a little bit less risk aversion for logan coolly than there is for other guys on this if by year seven and eight i'm a huge bargain at 10 million i will cash in correct in year nine and yeah you're you're right this isn't again he didn't sign until he's 33 or something where and that and that and that matters

we know those we know those few years matters i went especially now when it comes to front offices, getting a little bit smarter, a little bit less apt to give big contracts to 33-year-old players than they were in the past. Yeah, and he's saying essentially, like, might not be a $10 million player for the next three seasons. Might be more than a $10 million player

for the back couple years of it, but we'll make it up on the back end. So I think I agree with you overall, man. I think there is risk aversion and it's of a type with a lot of, a lot of deals that we've seen in the past, even though the number's bigger. But I think that he makes enough up front for me to put it off to the side a bit.

That's fair enough. I don't know about Harley. Harley feels like a guy of this. That's the flip side of the coin. You think Tom's Harley? Yeah, I mean, a defenseman, though, so they age a little bit differently. Aging curves shifts out a year or two. And, yeah.

You know, whatever. You know what man? Like, if someone said, you can. have 80 million dollars right now. Like do I worry about whether that stops me from making 95 million dollars total or whatever over 10 years? Yeah, but then the flip side is, I mean, you'd say yes to 60 million then. So I mean, why not take that?

Why not, you know, how far down do you go knowing that you're freeing up caperoom and all of this stuff, right? Like at some point, and I've often said, like, I don't think with a lot of these players, It's the actual dollars that's going to bother them. Because, again, a lot of hockey players are just kind of, you know, and I don't mean this derivatively necessarily, but they're just simple guys. I want a cottage.

I want a boat. I want a nice car. That's it. You know, and it's not. I want a TV from Walmart that I can return in 88 days. Which doesn't factor into the expenses. So, you know, as we learned, you know, they're not, They're going, I need a mansion and a private plane.

So it doesn't really matter. But I think it's, you know, imagine, put yourself in the scenario where there was, in whatever job you do, there was a number that was associated to everyone that roughly was meant to indicate how good you are at your job. And that was public. And public in a way that you had to hear about it all the time. You're telling me that, yeah, you might feel like I make enough money. But if you're walking by, you know, on the way to the photocopier and you're walking by that guy at his cubicle and he's got a nine on his desk and you've got an eight on yours and you're sitting there going, I do more than that guy. Do I really want to hear about this? And everybody who comes by your cube goes, hey, your number is a little low. Have you ever heard that? Has anyone ever mentioned that to you? And you're like, yeah, actually, I hear it everywhere I go. Thanks a lot. I think it's a pride thing for some of these guys as much as anything. And I don't know. Some guys will handle it. and some guys don't. There have certainly been guys where I've gotten the impression that,

man, if this guy has to hear about what a quote-unquote great contract he has one more time, he looks like, you know, he might pop a vein, but. You can just, you can specify McKinnon. You can say it was him. Kind of was him a little bit. And rightly so. The guy was making $6 million and everyone's like, that's crazy, man. Isn't that wild that you should be making twice as much?

I was. No, thank you for reminding you're only the fourth person today to, bring that up. That's awesome. There's a couple years ago in Vegas when they did that media, they did that media tour event and I ended up, you know, Pierre was sick or something. So I had to go, it was when McKinnon, it was when McKinnon signed his new deal.

And the look on his face when he realized that he didn't have to answer the, who is the most underpaid star in the league anymore. And when he realized that the answer to the question was, Kale McCar, like he could pass that baton onto his teammate. I've certainly never seen Nathan McKinnon that happy. I'm not sure I've ever seen another hockey player that happy. He went out that night in Vegas and really cut loose.

He ate one spoonful of white rice. A rounded tomatoes for everybody. Let's go. I learned something this week that I shouldn't have to learn because it happens to me every year. But I learned that I've got to stop. pre-writing my annual scariest starts. I just need to write it the morning it goes live. Just if it's going live at 7 a.m.,

I just got to set the alarm, get up early, and just do it that morning. Because I always try to get a little bit done in advance, you know, try to outline, at least organize my thoughts. And I can't because then inevitably, whoever I mention goes absolutely nuts in the two games or two nights or whatever it is and makes me look bad

and I got to go back and take down my whole like, you know, Svechnikov hasn't scored all year thing. You hear that Svechnikov? Yep, he heard. Evan Bouchard heard. And the guy I'm scared of it.

Because by the way, this is my roundabout way of plugging the piece that drops Thursday. There's only one game tonight. How bad can it be? All I'm going to say is I think Austin Matthews gets a hater. tonight. Five goals. Five is doable. Five is doable. Three on a goalie and two more into an empty net.

Let's say that. I, how many people around this team? 21. I go 20 man roster, but I got to have an extra goalie because half the teams are the full roster. You fool. You're a tempting fan on that one. You got to pick the 10 guys you think might actually stink and just put like focus on that. And, and, and, well, I mean, it's, it's, it's, whether it's 10 or 20 or one, that guy is going to go bananas. And I'm then going to have fans, uh, who don't have object permanence and therefore don't know how time works going like, this guy's got 10 goals now. I know. I did, I didn't, I wrote it a month. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. No, I'm, I'm aware. It's, uh, just. Yeah. I, I, I said that. I said that

in October. Anything else? You know, in December he had said, yeah. Oh, okay, I'm going to stop you're right there. I'm going to stop you right there, and I'm going to have you look at this calendar and tell me which month comes first. That's a level of contempt for fans that you almost only see from ESPN. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Readers, my readers, specifically. Runing my life. These are my readers, says Sean McIndoe. I think somebody else has already used that one. His name escapes me. Thank you, buddy. And thank you to Frankie, like we said,

he's in the return line at a Walmart. somewhere. Thank you folks. No contempt here. We love you listeners. We love you viewers for watching the show and listening to the show. Three of us are back next Wednesday. Haley and I have the next show overall, which is tomorrow. We're going to be talking to Shane and Goldman who had a really interesting piece come out about team building and how good teams get good. We're going to talk to her about that. Plenty of other stuff. That's a Thursday show. This has been the Wednesday show. Signing off.