The Athletic Hockey Show - Why the NHL doesn't want you to have access to players salaries

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

Gentille, Frankie and McIndoe discuss the impending demise of the CapFriendly website, and how the NHL and General Managers don't want fans to have access to player salaries and team salary caps, in a salary cap league no less. The boys discuss the Stanley Cup Final with the Panthers up two games to none in the series, and if the banged up Oilers can make this a series vs Florida.Plus, Sean and Sea learn that Evan Rodrigues is scoring at will and that we still don't know what an elbow major is in the NHL. We stick-tap Jim Nill and Eric Tulsky and discuss that the President Trophy champion New York Rangers still have a lot of work to do. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hello. This is the athletic hockey show. Wednesday edition. I did not say good evening because I didn't want to make Sean mad again. Didn't care for that when I said it a couple weeks ago. That was a far more enthusiastic hello than you usually bring to the intro. I'm fired up.

I like it. See you. Brother, what can I say? Sean Jensili. He's Sean McAdoo. Frankie Carado will be here in segment two. But buddy. How are we?

What's new? Not too much is new. Other than the last time that you and I interacted was last week, Friday, we published a piece in which we debated who would win the Stanley Cup final. Edmonton or Florida. I can't remember who picked which team. It's probably not important. I think someone will probably remind you. Yeah, I've had quite a few reminders because let's start with what I learned.

What have we learned, Sean? I learned this week that if you include a throwaway line in your Stanley Cup preview debate about Evan Rodriguez, he will apparently find out and decide to haunt you because I included a mention. Look, we were talking about depth and whether depth would be a factor. in this series. And I pointed out that while Florida did have more depth, I wasn't sure it would really move the needle. And I included the line,

hey, what do we think is going to happen? Do we really think Evan Rodriguez is going to play a major role in this series? And since then, he has scored all the goals and is at this point, starting to make me worry that he's going to win the consmite. So I learned. I can't say I learned that I'm dumb because I knew that already, but I learned that Evan Rodriguez is a spiteful human being who has it out for me. And he's making me look bad.

And please stop sending me that quote to everyone. I got it. He got it from me specifically in three different ways. I think I emailed it to you as well. I thought the plane dragging the banner over the arena was excessive. I felt like that was a little too much. I don't want to say that I saw this coming from Evan Rodriguez. That would be extremely disingenuous.

I'm not going to lie. I will say that at some point over the last few years, really starting with 21, 22 with Pittsburgh, when he had 19 goals during the regular season, and at times was their best forward. He had a stretch there where he was just unconscious, like the shooting bender he was on, right? So you see that he's a guy who has the ability to get hot for a few games at a time, if nothing else.

So I'm not surprised to see Evan Rodriguez be a factor in a playoff series. Do I, did I think he was going to be the third most relevant forward on the ice, like in a Stanley Cup final? I don't think so. I'm not going to pretend that that was the case. but he's always had the look of a guy who would score some relevant goals during a playoff run. And I think we're seeing that writ pretty large here, buddy. And I'm just glad I'm on the right side of history, unlike some of us. Yeah, that's a little bit rough.

But what have you learned? That I still don't know what an elbowing major looks like. I don't think that Leon Drysadow should have been suspended for game three of this series. I need to say that straight up. I don't think that's the level that his elbow to Alexander Barkov's head raised to in game two. But if that from him is not a five-minute penalty, then I'm not sure what else would need to happen because the puck was gone. He came in high.

He came in. Look deliberate. Contact with the head. Like, if that's not, if that doesn't raise to something above, of, you know, a two-minute call, I don't really know. I don't really know what it is. And I get it. We'd already seen a five-minute major in that game.

You know, this is, it was ref game management at its finest there, I think, I think, by the end. Which so, whatever. And maybe, maybe it is that simple. That's exactly it. So, I mean, you just said you don't know, but you do know. Because it was a two-one game with 10 minutes left, and Leandro Settle is one of the best offensive players in the world. you need those okay I know this is an audio podcast you just hit the greatest eye roll and I say I have two teenagers in my house so my stand roll are very high but you just hit an all timer at me but I'm not wrong right I mean this is no you're not you're not you're not wrong also the the eye roll has gotten me in trouble my entire life and it's something that I can that I can't take out that I can't take out the arsenal there's a there's a person in the other room right here that it that it that

in a room away from me that is not a fan of the reflexive eye roll. It takes a lot to impress me on the eye roll. The I roll bar is very high, but that was excellent. Look, what would- Paul a major. Paul a major. Like, that's what they're in the books for, for God's sakes, especially on elbows.

Like, what else do you want? This is like gaslighting by officiating crews. Because you look out of it. you're like, what the hell does a major elbow look like if it's raised and he comes up and he does it with malice? It like, it is, it's one of those things that I see. And I'm like, I don't, do I not, do I not understand how like what the, what the rule book says? And I know what you're saying, for God's saying. You don't because it is, here's, here's the other thing. Elbowing is one of those penalties where if it causes an injury to the head or face, it's an automatic major.

So there is no distinct, there is no minor major. And people who are saying, well, wait a second, Markov clearly was injured. First of all, we can get into the whole Kevin BX, whether the jaw is part of the head or face, nonsense. But I missed that. Oh, baby. That was a previous one. I can't even remember what, that was some other one we were arguing about.

Maybe Jacob Gruba. Maybe Dr. BXA. But look, and people are going, well, wait a second. If Sean just said that that has to be a major, why was it a minor? Well, it was an elbowing. Was it? It was roughing. That was the other part of it.

And they did not review it. They didn't call it a major and then go and look at it. They just got together. And it was such a weird play because there was no call initially at all. And then they all huddled up and they said, okay, it's a minor. and well wait a second what do you mean you huddled up and decided it was a minor two referees looked at it in real time and didn't call it and yeah well you know the linesmen come in but the linesmen can't call minors so they don't have a say so i mean it was it was so okay you just hit it again it was so game manager that they you i mean you could practically see them getting together going all right barcroft just got hurt we have to call something uh i'm not throwing dry title out of the game. I'm not giving them five minutes. We can't decide the game.

We already threw Warren Fogel out of the game. We already did, which we could do because it's Warren Fogel and that's okay. But we can't do it twice because then it becomes a whole thing. Okay, two minutes for elbowing. Oh, wait a second. If it's two minutes for it, then it has to be five. Okay.

You're so good at that. So it's two minutes for roughing. It's just, it's like, what, it's like, let's triangulate down to the exact penalty that will make nobody happy. And then... Congratulations. They managed it.

They did it. Okay. So you were not expecting a suspension. No, oh God, no way. No way. I think that's where I stand on so much of this stuff,

right? Is that... And someone told me a long time ago, you know, sometimes bad hits don't need to be suspendable. And like, it's something to remember

at every turn. Like, that's why penalties exist. It's why minors exist. And I think the extension on mine is like that's why majors exist too. Like you're allowed to call those. Like, and I feel like more and more like we see it with boarding from time to time, you know, where you're like, if this is not, if this is not a five minute penalty, then like what is. Like I guess I'm, you know, I'm contradicting myself because I'm saying I get why they didn't call it because that's just the way the games tend to be officiated. But for God's sakes, man, like use the five minute call.

sometimes use it judiciously don't start throwing them out there you know like like like like you're paid to do it but sometimes that's just that's just the way it is but you're right like sometimes a penalty is just a penalty and the other thing is suspensions are not the league's way of saying the ref got it or like every time the reps don't call a penalty or like that doesn't have to be a suspension and it is not in in a suspension is no course of action to make up for a call that was missed. Like, yeah,

the league is not going to, the league is not going to, the league's not going to say like that should have been a five minutes. So, you know, whatever, like, like, might as well make up for it.

That's not how it works either. Speaking of the league not saying what the, you know, not, not giving us any information. The, uh, puck over glass call was a weird one.

I almost, I seriously almost called you. I almost picked up the, telephone and called you whenever that happened. And then I saw on Twitter, you were making the exact point that you had on the phone. Yeah. Yeah, which was, wow, what a great, what a great penalty. Because every time I complain about this stupid, awful, terrible, dumb penalty that we have in the rulebook, people say, no, no, you don't understand, Sean. It's black and white. It's completely objective. It's called every time. Isn't it great? We don't, it's not like

tripping or hooking or literally every other penalty in the entire rulebook. We don't have to rely on the referee's judgment and game management and all this stuff, which is a terrible argument, by the way, if your argument is it's the only call in the entire rulebook that they have to call in overtime when they manage everything else, that's not a, that's not in favor of it. But we saw it yet again, as we often do with this black and white completely unarguable rule, they have to huddle up, they have to figure it out. And this one was weird, because I got to be honest, I didn't even know whether, you know,

whether it was a penalty or not, because it's like the puck is going over the line as it leaves his stick. And ESPN told us one thing and Hockey Night and Canada told us something else. And again, just to get to the point. And it was a huge moment, by the way, because that would have been a five on three. What was the explanation you guys got? Because I feel like Dave Jackson actually on ESPN did a pretty good job of explaining why that wasn't the right call. What happened on Hockey Night Canada, very weirdly, was as most people know, Ron McLean is an NHL referee. so that he both knows the rules and often defers to the official.

So what we got this time was he told us in intermission, he said it's based on where the motion starts, not where it finishes and it started inside the line. So it was a miscall. It should have been a penalty. And again, if people don't remember, it would have given the others a five on three for like a minute 40. So he just,

but he said it as like a throwaway. like it wasn't like they did a whole segment about this miss call he was just like oh and by the way they missed a call that could determine the entire series anyways uh onto this other thing and you were just going like what yeah and then he started reciting the lyrics to some gordon lightfoot song from that's yeah and he and he asked a 25 year old player whether he knew never mind yeah where who's your favorite roller derby like what grandpa i don't know what you're talking about man uh so anyways my understanding now is they did get it right that was that the ESPN version was correct.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised Dave Jackson an actual recent NFL or NHL referee would know the rule. But another way, and again, that is the sort of thing where if the NHL had more credibility here, if they did stuff like the NBA does with their final two minute report or like the NFL will occasionally say,

we blew it on this call, then they could just come out and say, this is what the rule is, this is why it was done right. or this is what the rule is and it was missed. And, you know, hey, it's, but instead, we don't get any of that because the NHL doesn't. No one's ever, like no officials ever made a mistake. There's never, there's never been a five minute elbow that's been dealt out. What else?

We're like, we're, we're falling back on all the, on all the great old, like the great old hobby horses here. Yeah, we're, we're playing the hits because we got days between games. The other hit that we're going to play with Frankie coming up next. The NHL hates cap-friendly. The NHL has contempt for its fans. Frankie's got some thoughts, and he's coming up next. All right, Frankie's here.

He's coming in hot. What's going on, buddy? All right? So everyone knows what a tsunami is, right? Yes. Yes. Okay. I thought I was going to be late to the podcast today

because I had to deal with a Poonami. Oh, no. Oh, no. No. And so if you're not familiar what that is basically, baby takes a dump. It goes everywhere, flying out of the diaper all over the shirt. You got to do like the, you know, the sponge bath, kind of get everything organized, get the baby all done. And this was mid mid feed. So then we had to finish the feed. So dealt with the Poonami, got the baby fed. But I'll tell you what, man, the feeling of seeing that amount of a dump come out of the baby is probably and having to deal with it,

that's the exact same feeling that a lot of hockey fans were feeling when they saw the cap friendly news. Wow. Exactly same feeling. My man brought it from a from a diaper blowout to the cap. This is like people are taking out from full on baby squirrel tail right to cap. Friendly. If you need to know what those two things feel like, they feel exactly the same. Because now we're all, like, I had to pick up the pieces and I had to be ready to rock. And now that's what everyone else has to do with Cap Friendly going away. How many times do you think

you would go on Cap Friendly in a week to check that site? Dozens. Easily. It probably was, it had to be well on the double digits. Oh, yeah. And I'm still, by the way, By the way, I'm like, I think I'm only now not reflexively typing in Cap Geek, which I, which I did for years, years. Like, I'm talking in the last couple seasons, like I don't, my fingers just don't reflect to Lego CAPG and take it from there. Do you remember, I don't know if you guys watched Jersey Shore back in the day, but there was this bit that they used to do on Jersey Shore where if she doesn't know X. she's too young for you, bro. If she doesn't know Capgeek, she's too young for you, bro. Like, because cat, I think there's a whole section of hockey fans that don't even know what

Cap Geek is or was, but that was the original Cap Friendly. And it was no longer existed. The person passed away. We had cap friendly. Cap Friendly is unbelievable. And one of the things I'm having a hard time grasping is that there are teams around the NHL. And these are reports that have come out. Teams around the NHL that are now scrambling because they use cap-friendly so much and now they need to come up with something internally.

What? You don't have that in your own internal systems. Like, you don't need to have armchair GM. You don't need to have, you know, all the, all the little extras that it has. But you don't have that. What are we talking about here? This is a billion dollar organizations. And you don't have that built into your system? I mean, we've all seen, we've all seen the peer Dorian.

What is that, was that a screenshot? I don't mean, I don't know what that was. It was just kind of like a random, candid photo of him sitting. And just, like,

standing up with, with a couple people at his desk, uh, with cat friendly open up on, like that see, that seemed like a joke. And now we're learning that, look,

maybe it wasn't, and apparently some teams, apparently some teams were actually licensing from CapRite. So I think there is a distinction between there were some teams that had like a business arrangement. Right. To get like the API and we won't get all technical on that, but you know, to hook into the system. But then there were also certainly some teams that were just freeloading off of the same information you and I, like they were doing the same thing.

I'm going to have to change. One of the things that changed my life was years and years and years ago. somebody taught me how to set up basically a keyboard shortcut to search anything. So if I literally type CF in a space into my browser and then start typing a hockey player name, it goes right to cap friendly. I haven't even seen the cap friendly homepage. I've got that for that hockey reference, the athletic, a few other things. It was a few other game.

A few other things. The sites and sites will remain. We'll do it. That'll be one of the summer. episode. Oh, F. But you mentioned

where we just go through Sean's browser history? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Feet finder premium. Uh, yeah. You mentioned Capgeek. Like, I'm old enough

to not just remember Capgeek. I'm old enough to remember when it shut down. Yeah. And people were like,

well, this is probably where the league will step in and build something to replace it because it's demonstrated the value and the demand and how much fans love that site.

So surely the NH and the NHL was like, no, screw you. And we didn't, like, it wasn't an instant transition. Like, there was for a while, the original CAP friendly was not what we have now. And it's, you know, it's going to be the same. Like, there are some sites that do have this information. But a lot of those sites get the information from CAFRA. That's the problem. That's, like, that's the thing.

It wasn't just a tool set. It wasn't some glorified spreadsheet. It was a source where very clearly they were getting all the contract information. Yeah. And now we don't have it. And the NHL is like apparently, according to Elliott Friedman, the part of this deal was the NHL went to the capitals and said, you can't keep this public. We don't want it out there.

Because why would they want something that the fans want? Why would you do that? they could make it such a moneymaker too, Sean. Like if the NHL were to run a website like this, think about all the, I don't know, all the visitors, all the ad revenue, all the things you could sell premium features for. Like this could,

you know, it could be a money making thing, but I guess it sounds like they're not really interested in that. Put you an knowing 30 second video ads. Yeah. In front of your seven second highlights. For sure. For sure.

Cool clips. Yeah. Well, and the other thing that kind of not bugs me, but it does bug me is we have our own media site, like for people that are unaware, we have a media login and they make us watch a 15-second ad on the media side of things before we watch the goals. I'm like, this is my job. I don't need to watch your betting ad. Like, I just need to see what happened on this goal because I got to talk about it in a minute, okay? Yeah. And shouldn't you specifically not want us to watch your betting ads? Like, for God's sakes. Like, if anybody,

If anybody shouldn't be watching betting ads, it's people logged into the media.nishl.com site. The cap-friendly website got better and better. And to the point that I'll give you like a personal anecdotal thing here. So my MacBook Air, I've had this thing since 2015. 2015-2016 season is when I got this thing. As Cap-friendly got better, it got slower on my MacBook Air. Because whatever I have going on on this thing, it wasn't able to process it fast as it used to be.

So I had to go to my iPad more if I really wanted to get Humman on cap-friendly. And the whole, like, you know, other teams not having this kind of stuff internally or maybe, you know, they relied on cap-friendly? You know what I equated to? I was playing in Sweden and we were awful. And we were close to, like, facing relegation. And the GM of the team's office was, his window was in the player's parking. lot. So you could see what was going on on his computer. And I remember there was a game. We were

very close to this like relegation stage and we still had some time to maybe bring in an import player. And as I'm leaving the rink after an awful game, I take a look and he's humming on elite prospects. And I'm like, this is the scouting tool that you just, elite prospects, how was he last year with the Orlando Solar Bears? Maybe we'll bring him in if the price is right. And that's, that's kind of what like is, is that happening with cap stuff in the NHL? I don't know, but it leads me to believe that maybe there is something similar happening with some teams. Now, hold on.

Did he know that you guys could all see his screen? Yeah, but like, I don't think he thought, you know, creeper Frank would be like, hey, what's, what's he looking at in there, you know? How could you not? If you walk past, I'm sorry, man. like if you're walking past your boss's computer or whatever

it's human nature buy some blinds go to like go to whatever the Swedish equivalent of Amazon is is probably Amazon and buy some buy some cheap blinds for your at IKEA yeah yes

that's where they that's where they buy everything it's food food blinds furniture whatever but like I will miss cat friendly but in the absence of cap-friendly. I think there are going to be some other websites and people that really take to this, like Puckpedia seems like one that's really going to become more robust as time goes on here.

And, you know, someone asks me the other day, what's the best way to get into NHL management without any NHL connections? And I think the answer to that is build a platform, build something, whether it's analytics, whether it's CAP, whether, like, just something that you can build that maybe a team looks at online and says, okay, we can, we can absorb that. Let's bring that in. Like there's, there's countless examples of that happening where someone builds something out. They put it on Twitter. Teams see it and they get hired by teams. Like, I can't tell you how many times that's happened in the last 10 years. This whole story feels like a throwback because there was that, like around the Capkeek time, there was this whole period where people would put cool stuff

online sometimes it was just like their Twitter account or they had a blog or they had you know, and then it would just disappear. And sometimes it disappeared with like a note like this person's and sometimes it just vanished and you were like, oh, and okay. So this person has been swallowed up by some team somewhere, but we don't know what it was. And you just kind of got used to like cool stuff being there and then vanishing. And it hasn't happened in a while.

This stinks, man. Like I look, it's great. I'm happy for the cap friendly guys. They've helped me on a few things over the years. They've always been receptive and cool, and I'm glad that they're presumably cashing out on this. But as a fan, man, this stinks. And at the end, like, okay, let me read the quote.

This is Elliot's, uh, Eliot's quote. The NHL frowns on the existence of sites like this one. They consider it proprietary information. not true screw you not true the NHLPA fought many many years ago to make sure that players salaries were public for a number of reasons but more so for the players so they could know what they're comparable what their equivalent was making and no one was getting shafted and the fans in a hard cap world who take such an interest in their teams whether we like it or not they deserve to know how every penny is being spent in a hard cap world they have to if there was a luxury

tax if it was a soft cap if there was no salary cap we could say you know what who cares you know we'll find out if we find out but they're just going to spend as much money as they can but even if you were a fan of a team that doesn't want to spend a lot of money wouldn't you want to know like hey i see the building is sold out every night and we're not a very good team what are you spending 65 million a year like let's go here like fans deserve to know that in the world we have to you cannot have any informed and valid opinion about stuff happening in the nchal without knowing the numbers and this is what they created we lost a whole season so that gary bedman could have his hard cap cost certainty league this is part of it like look i i i'll go grandpa sean here i i am

old enough to remember when we didn't know how much players made because it was not just in the pre cap era, but like, you know, I don't know how much Wendell Clark made. I don't know how much, like I knew sometimes you'd hear like, oh, contracts coming up. They're having trouble, but you didn't know the exact number. And back then, yeah, maybe you didn't need to know because it didn't, it didn't affect you. Today, it's, it's impossible to evaluate a trade or a signing or anything like that without knowing, not just the cap number, but the cap situation of the team. So if the league doesn't want us to know that, then they're basically telling us,

don't care about this stuff. Don't care about trades. Don't care about, like, you know, you can't sell me on the deadline. You can't sell me on July 1st. Oh,

your team just signed a big free agent. How much? Don't worry about it. Right. No, that's not how this works. And let's just call it what it is. This is yet another example of,

first of all, the league given a middle finger to the fans. You know, they don't, they don't view you as anything other than a little fleshy blob holding a credit card to beep on the machine to give them money. That is all that that that is your only role in this. And it's it's the GMs not wanting to be accountable, not wanting to be criticized.

That's it. If I'm a GM, I want to sign a free agent, but I don't want anyone to know the numbers that they would use to evaluate. I just want to have a press conference and show them the player and everyone go, oh, that's great. And that's not how much it is. It's so insulting and stupid. I have a lot of them. doing this now. Like 10 years ago it was stupid and insulting when Betman did his whole. Like, I think that's a media thing you guys are making up that anyone cares about this. It was dumb back

then, but nine years later, are you kidding me? You're still doing this? It's beyond ridiculous and stupid and insulting. People care and there's a lot of well-informed people. There's a lot of smart people. I have a lot of respect for when teams make a signing and this is going to be happening soon because we're getting close to free agency. They disclose the, term, the dollar amount, and I even love when some teams will say, we've signed so and so to a two-way deal that pays $775 in the NHL and $350 in the AHL. Like, I think all that stuff is great to know. And I don't understand, like, okay, I guess I do understand what you're hiding from. You're hiding from the criticism, from fans, from whoever. But I don't know, don't we all gain if everyone does a

better job here. Like if everyone holds themselves accountable into a higher standard, doesn't the league move forward? Don't you gain more interest from people? Like, I don't know, man. I just, there's so many different ways that they could lean into this and say, okay, we're going to take this over. And maybe it is a little bit of investment. Maybe it is some capital that you need to invest in this at the start. But I just think if you watch the way Cap Friendly was built and grew, there's so much to gain for the league. And it feels like maybe if they don't do that and they just leave it up to a third party, which maybe they will do.

And maybe that's someone else's slice of the pie to grab. But it feels like they're leaving money on the table. It doesn't feel like shrewd business. Everything takes a backseat to the feelings of 32 general managers. That's what this is. those guys don't want people to know when they've made mistakes generally and they certainly don't want and they can use it as you know this is proprietary information

and you don't want you know maybe you don't want your you don't want your competition to know what you're like whatever whatever bullshit that is like that weird end of the argument they they don't want people to know when they've got guys that are on the red arrow team which is so you mean so another example maybe not disclosing when someone has a no trade clause or no move clause and you trade that, or a 10 team and you trade that guy anyways. Like that kind of stuff, that kind of stuff has happened.

Like we just saw it happen. Absolutely. And that's part of what we need to know. That was on cap friendly, right? It's not just the cap hit number. I mean, that is the bare minimum. The absolute bare minimum that I need to know is how much cap spaces my team have, how much cap space is each player accounting for.

But there was all these other, all these other pieces. Like, what are the clauses? When do they kick in? what's the signing bonus breakdown? What does the buyout situation look like? Do you want informed fans or do you want dumb fans who are just clapping along and buying your third redesigned jersey of the year? I got a great example. We've always know which of those two the NHL wants.

This is it laid, this is it laid plain. Like it's never, it's never been, it's never been more clear. So was it was it the Montreal and Florida trade? Was it the Ben Chirot trade that got Florida or sorry, got. Montreal, the first round pick that was unprotected? Yes. Okay. So I made a mistake once on air.

This was the first year I was doing HAB's panels. And it was an honest mistake. And I was under the impression that it was top 10 protected or something. And I said that on air. I shouldn't have said it. It was wrong. I went to Cap Friendly after. and I read that it was,

I got confused with the wording of it. Like it can get intricate sometimes with the wording of those types of things. My tweets were like flooded with fans, well-informed fans who were watching the broadcast and they were nice. They just said, hey, at Frank Crowado 22, just a heads up.

Like it is not protected. Like a bunch of people. And I was like, you know what? Man, there's a lot of people that care about this kind of stuff. Like that was a good example for me. And you know what? Like I think it just, it elevates everyone knowing that kind of stuff because then I even went on the air afterwards. I say it's actually made the correction.

And yeah, I don't know. We're just, it's, we're going to see who takes over the space now and what they do with it. And you know what we're also going to see is, and you guys referenced this a little bit, But there was a period of time up to, I would say, a couple of years ago where you would see a team sign somebody. They'd be like, hey, we just signed Superstar X to an extension. And you would click on it and it would just say, yeah, we signed them into an extension. Terms are not disclosed as per club policy. And you're like, what the hell is terms are not disclosed?

So was it expensive, cheap, short term, long term? Like, why are you not telling me this? And eventually that almost entirely went away because of sites like cat friendly where the information was so easily available that it just became ridiculous. If that information goes away, even temporarily, you're going to see real quickly which teams want to go back to holding their fans in contempt. Right. Teams are going to.

I have a good idea. I think there's some usual suspects there from the general manager's point of view. Isn't there of, we can just say Lou. Sure. Yeah, there's a couple other, a couple others that are kind of cut from the same cloth. Let me ask you a question. Now, hockey's the hard salary cap and the other three major league sports aren't. Do they have something internal?

Like, does the NFL, NBA and MLB, do they have their own kind of salary disclosure thing that they do? Or would this, if the NHL were to do it, which doesn't sound like it's going to happen, but would they be the first one of the big four to do it? I think what's funny is that with the other sports, there are. third party analogs, right? Like over the cap is like is the NFL is the NFL version and like Cots baseball contracts is the baseball version. And those aren't, you know,

league run necessarily. But you also don't see the level of hostility. Like the NFL is not coming out and shitting on people who, who like using over over the cap. And they're not, there's no MLB degree. of hostility towards the people that run Cots baseball contract. So like,

it's a similar situation where the best resources are not owned by the league, but there's also an increased level of transparency and certainly not the degree of hostility that we've seen from the NHL here. Right. Well, that's, I mean, that's, that's the reality of the,

the hard salary cap and where we're at with the league. So if they, if they ever were to change that, like if they ever were to change things, I don't think fans would care as much how much the teams are spending on certain players. If you're a big market team, everyone knows. If you're the Rangers, the Leafs, the Canadians, you're just going to spend as much

money as you want. Red Wings, go for it. That goes into not my problem territory, especially with the big spenders. Now, I say this as whatever, someone who watched the Pittsburgh Pirates on local television last night, it turns into a problem for cheaper teams because then you're like, you know, then it's it's it's it's it's it's not that big of a deal for for teams when they're spending money but when it's like i i i would i i think it's important that everyone knows that you know the pirates payroll is one fifth of of of the dodgers and that's due to their own cheats that's mainly due to their own

cheapness it's this isn't like a big market small market thing in baseball it's just you have you have you have bad actors and in cheap ownership groups who just don't give a shit about actually putting out a competitive product. So it's an issue at the bottom, not quite, not quite as much so at the top. Yeah. And I'll be honest. I don't necessarily want the league to build this because the league has not built anything that I use often. I know that I know some of the people who work on this stuff and there's some there's some good people, smart people. But it's just everything on the NHL site is so slow. It's so overly complicated. It's so, so like not you can tell because you know as somebody who used to to build websites you can tell when it's like all right we know we should do this but the VP has a bug up his ass about it so we're going to you know make it a little more it just it doesn't worry so I don't want them to

just take over but it's the host it's the telling the capitals you've got to shut it down this is proprietary we're going to like it's it's it's completely ridiculous and it it it honestly it makes you think one or two things. Either it's so fundamentally against what fans need and media too, but you know, what the fans need in order to understand your league that they're either stupid or they're just openly hostile to their own customers. And I'll tell you something. As someone who is not a big Gary Betman fan and not a fan of a lot of the stuff this league does, these guys are not stupid. These are absolutely not stupid guys. So you can scratch that off the list. It's option B. and that should tick you off, man. Someone, someone tweeted something out. I actually can't remember who it was. It might have been you, DGB. Maybe it wasn't.

But it was a newspaper page with all the salaries disclosed. And I can't, it probably would have been from the 90s. It was Seth Rorba who works for the. Oh, okay, it was Seth. Yeah. In Pittsburgh. Okay. I thought it was so cool to see that.

And one of the things that really, jumped off the page to me was looking at some of the teams who have money and how much they were paying their players and the teams that didn't have money and how little they were paying the equivalent player on that team. And I guess, like if I were to, you know, maybe defend the league stance in that regard with the hard salary cap, now your number one center on your small market team gets paid close to or as much as the number one center on a bigger market team. And we have a little more, you know, we have a little more balance throughout the league. So, you know, you're not a victim of crap. I got drafted by, you know, Team X that gets 13,000 fans a game and doesn't

generate revenue. And now they own my ass till I'm a UFA and I'm going to lose out on money. Whereas, you know, you don't have, you get drafted by a small market team. You know, you're going to make good money. It's up to you. You know, it's not up to the circumstances of the team. So in that, you know, in that regard, I will say from a player's point of view, I appreciate the balance. But, you know, it feels like the highest paid players now are making what the highest paid

players made in the early 2000s, which is also, you know, like we're holding back. the truly, truly elite superstar players, if that makes sense. Definitely. Yeah. And the signing bonus one. This has always been, this has always been bothersome to me. And, you know, NBA player gets drafted in the first round, signing bonus, change your life. NFL player, signing bonus, change your life.

MLB player, massive signing bonus. NHL player, signing bonus, you can buy a Ford F-150. Yeah. You see you when you're 27. And you might not even be able to get leather with that. So, you know. It's going to be a Toyota Tundra or something. Yeah.

And you got to negotiate a little bit to try and drive the price down. I think the best part of this and the part that fans should really take enjoyment in some level, unless one of your teams is affected by this, I suppose, is that the exact same mindset that's led to, you know, the, the NHL being so bizarre about this and pulling the plug as soon as they had the opportunity to really is going to lead to three weeks of like lemon booty time and some front offices because they're going to need to build out there. There are some people out there that are like, that are calling web dev firms and whatever and trying to get something scraped together in the next three weeks.

And I hope it fails. I do it. Totally. It's fine. I'll hook you up and it's going to be completely. It'll be static HTML because that's all I ever knew how to do. I don't even know what that means. Weirdly, it'll all be, it'll make Mitch Marner's contract look a lot cheaper. And then some team will be like, I guess we can go ahead and trade for that guy. Let's trade for him.

Let me ask you guys something. Let me ask you guys something next year when I do my TSN top 50 to start the season, will I have Sasha Barkoff in my top five? The way you say that, I think you might. and we're probably two or three games away from him definitely having a spot there. And he's, by the way, he's on the ice for practice today. So that's good news for the Panthers. So, Sasha Barkoff.

If we did through a whole final with Connor McDavid having no points or no, you know, no goals. Yeah. So Darren, Darren brought that up, the one, we're doing the panel one thing. We're watching the game and he's like, how do we not have Sasha Barkoff in a top five NHL players?

And I think I said, well we probably are now aren't we like we're we're reaching that point where and and for the oilers it just feels like they're so banged up like watching the way some of those guys are moving like nurse couldn't play in that game he sat on the bench evander kane it's not an effort thing a van der kane can't move like he's he's trying um and that's the case with a lot of the guys on edmonton but uh man sasha barkov like he is he's everything you want in your number one forward i think we did the player tiers ahead of last season. Every assistant GM, GM, everybody in like a position of power, you know, they were looking for some reason to elevate Barkav to the, maybe not quite to like the McKinnon, McDavid, Matthews tier, but very close to it. And I think we had them at like at 2A or something.

And everybody kind of agreed with that. but also all the execs were like, they were like foaming at the mouth for some reason to put him up another level because everybody loves him that much, right? I think this is what we're seeing here. Now he's got that excuse. He's got, he's got this,

you know, a couple series under his belt now where he, he hasn't just been good. He hasn't just been solid. He's been like the best player on the ice. Truly, and every year, it seems like,

you know, the player's poll comes out, NHLPA players poll and it's like there's Sasha Barkov, your most underrated player. Dude is being the most underrated player for eight years in a row now. But here's the thing. We always talk about him in this light where he's like, this guy's a top 10, top 15 player. But maybe the players are trying to tell us something. Maybe they're trying to tell us guys, it's not top 10. It's top five.

Like you guys don't realize because we play against this guy. This is a top five talent. So whatever that means, McDavid, Dreight, Cicidal, McCar, McKinnon, Matthews, Barcoff, like, he is in that. Whatever, whoever you want to erase from that, but Barkov is in that top five. Maybe that's what they're trying to tell us. Maybe he actually is underrated and he's in that highest tier of player in the NHL. What's the single biggest thing that needs to change for Edmondson going into game three to get

this back on the rails for them? Don't be so hurt. Like that's, that's literally it. Don't be so hurt. They're just, they're banged up. and Florida is playing so well. And listen, Florida, Edmonton's game to win was game one.

That was an opportunity wasted because of Babrobs, Bobrobski for sure. But you knew Florida was going to have a big bounce back in game two. And here's the thing. I think Florida can play even better than what they played in game two. Like that was more to their identity, but they can play better. Edmonton now needs to win four out of the next five

with half the roster banged up who can't play. Florida seems healthy. and Florida's playing great hockey. Like, how are they going to do this? I have no idea how they're going to do it, but if they do, it's going to be one of the greatest comebacks we'll ever see. Well, I mean, having watched, especially game two,

I don't know how they're going to do it either, except that I know that I might watch your first five minutes of game three, and Connor McDavid creates two goals single-handedly, and I'll go, oh, yeah, okay, that's how they're going to do. Would that bother the Panthers, though? That's the question you have to ask. They're not going to fold for sure. Yeah, you're right.

They'll be like, okay, we're down to nothing. And we're just going to, we'll just chip away at you. And, you know, we've got 55 more minutes to get at this thing. Like, that's the crazy thing about Florida. They're not bothered by anything. Not bothered by being down. And when they play with the lead, they're unbelievable. Like, you can't, you just, you can't come back on them.

And I think they're, what are they nine and oh now when leading after two, six and oh when leading after one. They are, they lock it down better than anyone. How many games does this go? How many of the Oilers pull out here, if any? I'd like to see the Oilers win. I would love to say it go six, you know,

like, but does it go five? Because does it feel, it feels like it's five right now. It feels like Florida gets a split and then go back to Florida and win. I'm going down with the ship, seven. Yeah.

Seven. It's going seven and I don't know how, uh, I'm not even saying we're going to win that seventh game. And let's just, let's just put something out there. The oilers have been a very resilient team. It's been an unbelievable story.

Everything that they've overcome this year. This is literally just, the Oilers are banged up. This is not an indictment on the team on a player's effort or how they're playing. It's just they are beat up. That's what they are. I think that's something that's going to need to need to be said here too. Like that like we need to get out in front of that if if that's indeed the case because they're about to they're about to start taking some major shrap and what seems like. Yeah. No, it's it's it has nothing to do with talent, ability, anything like that. They're just they're they're walking wounded. And, and, and some

players are not playing hurt. It looks like some players are playing injured. And that's a very big difference. And that's very debilitating. Edmonton has a route for the Sergei Babravsky, Poonami, I think. Oh, there we go.

That's what that's the way to bring it full circle. I'll be there to clean it up for you. Have a good rest of your day, brother. Hopefully you make you make it get any worse. I'll see it. No kidding. Ah, see you guys.

All right, segment three. it's time for some offseason talk. I guess that's kind of what the cat-friendly stuff was, but whatever. We'll do some more. I'm glad that this is happening. I'm ready to start talking about player movement in the draft and free agency and stuff.

I'm, I think I'm already over this series. So it's nice to see some GMs. You know why? Because I respected Evan Rodriguez. That's why. Well, you'll be back on board next week when we're headed towards game seven.

For the record. Edmonton wins game three. We all get excited. Panthers win game four. We all say the series is over. Or there's win game five and game six. Easy, easy,

and I will tell you then who's going to win game seven. Seven runners. Seven goals in the final. All that does is set up Evan Rodriguez for the overtime cup winning goal. So it's fine. I'll take it. It's going to get an overtime hatrick because the first two goals are going to be waived off on replay review. we got three GM situations we want to talk about here first up Jim Nell

Dallas stars second straight GM of the year award back to back baby it's deserved I yeah right is there is there I mean I don't is there someone else you think should have it over him yeah I was I was talking about this yesterday like I don't know that there is a obvious like best GM in the league right now the way that they're or or even like a best two or three. It feels like it's much more gradient than it usually is. I've got no issue with Jim Nill winning. I think it makes sense for an award like GM of the year. Yeah, there should be back-to-back winners. Like a GM's job is a longer term. I do find it kind of weird that in the last six years, this is now the second back-to-back winner we've had because Lou won it twice in a row.

Meanwhile, there hasn't been a back-to-back Jack Adams winner since the 80s. Because at some point, we just decided that you couldn't be the best coach in the league two years in a row because it's it's the award for surprise performance more than great performance. Yeah, and you couldn't be the coach of the year if you started out with a team that anybody thought was going to be happy. Exactly. It's the, the coach of the year is the, we all said this team would be bad. They were good.

Clearly, we were not dumb. So therefore, this coach must have done a phenomenal job is the only way it can work. Excellent. GM of the year, different. Yeah, we knew the stars were going to be good. They turned out to be good. That's been true for a couple years. And, you know, the stuff is, the stuff is voted on.

And the stuff is voted on in April, too, which always, always helps. It is voted on after two rounds of the playoffs. It's the only award that gets voted on. I did not know that. It is voted. That is why it's always three guys from the final four. The voters are not that good at picking the, like, if you go back, it's all, it's almost always three of the four final four teams.

So yeah, it is voted on two weeks, which I mean, I don't hate because if you're judging a GM, I, I totally, we should vote on MVP after the playoffs. That should be, there should be a Wayne Gretzky Award for Best Offensive Player and then MVP should be after the playoffs because why do we, oh, Taylor Halls the MVP because the devil's, he got the devils into the playoffs and they will, got absolutely stomped once they got there. So what? What's the value in that?

But yeah, I don't know. Like, if you could hire one GM to start your team, every single GM has sent you a resume. Like, who, is it nil? Like, it's not him, but it's not. Here's my snap reaction is that it's nil because of the run that he went on with drafting for a while. And I guess really still continues.

if you look at Stankovan and N. White Johnson, those guys are, you know, recent draft picks that are already making major, major, major contributions. So it's not just Haskin and Robertson in that draft. It's been a pretty solid streak of, of doubles and homers for him.

Yeah. The only objection, sorry, is that I would have to Jim Niel being GM in the year, is the fact that we have a, GM of the year award, which is kind of dumb in its own right for such a long-term big picture job. What is Jim Neal done in the last year since he won a year ago? What has he done in the year since? Like the Christanaff trade got him GM of the year or, you know.

Duchenne probably helped. Having Dushain show up and be willing to work for having Matt Duchin willing. Like he really wanted to play for the. stars and really wanted to play in Texas and was willing to do it. Convincing the predators to buy out Matthew Shane was the. Maybe that's what it was. Maybe Jim Nill had some kind of, I don't know, mind control or hypnotist thing going on with Barry Trots and just set the play it for himself. I don't know.

I think this is something though. I'm with you where, you know, let's give it to someone else next year. Maybe. I will say this. I've got no issue with Jim Nill this year. Bill Zito should have won last year. Absolutely. That if you're going to have a GM of the year, that's he should have won.

I actually, I made a mistake when I was writing something about Zito. It was just a quick little thing that happened when he signed his extension a few months ago. And I was like, Bill Zito, NHL GM of the year in 2023, like, well, like coming off a year, coming off a season where he won the award or whatever I said. And we had to fix it because I just internalized it. I had it in my head that this is an award that. he got because he so he deserved it so uh so dramatically so i i think nil is but going back to that original question i think nil is my pick over zito just because nil has continued and

in his nil and his staff have figured out a way to keep hitting on these picks and and bill zito great as the panthers are just doesn't doesn't make your out picks because i like am i docking bill zito for for having a team that uh that's so good that he that he that he's in a win now mode and trades as picks and and you know be am i am i not giving enough points for hitting on these deals i don't know but i think i think the draft i think the draft stuff is what gives nail the edge for me we should point out that jim of the year is voted on not entirely but mostly by the gms so they're also the only group that gets to give themselves their own award so it is kind of a popular games run the league baby i don't think you'll ever see like a rookie gem in the year

never like could tulski get votes next year and I guess that's our segue into the next like or somebody you know like did Chris McFarland get any votes or is this one of these things where like you're I mean we know you're not even allowed to speak at the meetings until you've done 10 years of service time or whatever but I think uh there's got to be some level of I'm voting for this guy because I like dealing with him you know and that's and that's always the way it goes we hear it from GMs all the time where it's like, oh, it was great. It was great working with with so-and-so, you know,

I feel like it's a trade that both teams won and whatever. Like that stuff is, that stuff is important. And I guess it'll be on Eric Tolski's plate. Now, all signs point in being hired is the Carolina Hurricanes full-time general manager. He has the interim tag. They said,

you know, we heard in the last couple days, I think Frank Saravale was the first reported that the belief is that they're going to go in-house. Like, who else is in-house? Yeah. But Eric. So that's a no-brainer, right? Like, it's a good, it's a good fit between, uh,

between the person in, in the organization. And it's a, it's a long time coming because we've seen Eric Paulski interview last year, this year, like he's, he's been, he's been a hot candidate. And someone, I think someone was going to hire him eventually. And I think it made sense for, for Carolina to do it. And yeah, and, and, and I mean, he was very, you know, very involved in the decisions they were making in Carolina, maybe even more so than a typical assistant GM is involved.

But it is fascinating because you say it's a long time coming. And it is. This guy's been, you know, he's been there for a long time. He's interviewed for other jobs and that sort of thing. And yet also like 10 years ago, he was like a dude like you and me sitting on the couch,

posted on Twitter, writing his old blog. He was, he was just like me and you. If we would have gone to Harvard undergrad, I'd then gotten a PhD from Cal and, you know, all that stuff. I got, I got, I got, I got both mine from Harvard. So I have a, I have Tolst keep there.

So that is, yeah, that is a little bit. I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess in that way I'm better than he is, you know? I suppose, yeah, that is, I mean, it's fair. It's fair. He's, he's talked about this. I think he talked about it with me and Craig specifically a couple years ago. The work that he's done, too, to get to get a little bit more steeped in the, in the, like, scouting stuff. and he's over he had a lot to do with some changes that they made to their scouting process

just over the last couple years like this has been that this has been a steady build for for Tulski over the last couple years and it seems like every now and then you hear somebody you know will say like oh you know boy if anybody who just you know look knew how the numbers worked and blah blah blah could be a GM and it's like no there's a million other things involved in it and that's not what he has done so I'm sure people are already cooking up absolutely hilarious takes about watching the games and not the spreadsheets and all that. This dude, get the smartest dude at the sports bar who can eat the most chicken wings and all of that. Trust me, Tulski can run rings around that guy on any topic you want to hit on.

Yeah, but did he get punched in the face in Beer League on Sunday night? Yeah, probably. Probably. He wasn't playing, so it was kind of weird, but he still doesn't matter. The plate's full for Eric, too, man. Like, he's got, he's got the busy summer. The Gensel situation to deal with where there's been reports that they're looking at moving him, moving his rights ahead of the deadline on and on and on. It's a, it's a busy one, and it seems like it'll be his responsibility.

Here's my question. Can you trade a guy like that? for a conditional pick for something along the lines of like, hey, we'll trade them. And if you sign them, we want a, because I know you can't do that anymore for like midseason trades. You can't trade somebody to another team and say, if he signs an extension with you next summer, we get a second round pick because that was the players complained about that. Right. So because it was putting a cap on what they could make because teams would say,

ah, we have to give up this pick if we sign you so we can't offer as much money. and the player was like, hey, that has nothing to do with me. I'm just wondering, can you do it in the off season where, you know, the player has already walked right up to free agency? I don't think so. I see, I'm under the impression that you could. Okay. If so, it may be a, it would have to be a carve out because for years you could do that. I could trade you somebody and say if you sign, even at the deadline and say, you know, if you sign this guy.

I'm just wondering if they would carve it out and say like, hey, the player, if it's only a week, you know, clearly a team isn't going to do that and then turn around and be like, well, you know, we can't give up this pick. Yeah, that certainly doesn't seem like it's allowed. But it'll be interesting. Like, this is a situation that we don't typically see. I feel like we maybe saw it more 10 years ago or 15 years ago,

you know, the whole negotiation window trade. And it'll be interesting to see what happens there. busy summer for the new guy who's not all that new but newish and again i wonder if do you think there's any deals to be had between columbus and carolina the old uh you know the the the don wadell going there it feels like there's two ways either either it happens or there's like this weird like it'll never happen in the last year where it's like we we don't talk to that person and you know but i mean there's nobody certainly you would think don what else calling his old team being like i like this guy this guy and this guy and then tulski's

probably like yeah i know you like them because i was the one who convinced you'd like them so i like them too and and then you see and where and where does all of this leave poor martin ages yeah we shall see how does this affect the mitch martyr trade is really what i'm trying to get to the third GM on our little on our little round of GM carousel here in segment three Chris jury had a had a bit of a well I wouldn't say at a week I don't think I don't think he really cares all that much but he did he did make some interesting interesting for him comments five days ago this is after the Rangers get booted by Florida jury says it is season ending presser to me nothing's off the table we're trying to

the ultimate goal here. We're in the middle of that process now, trying to figure out what's next and what we can do to get better. There's different ways to get where you want to go. A lot of players had great seasons, a number of them have been very good Rangers for a long time. Now is the part of the job to figure out if this group collectively can get us to where we want to be. The process is already underway and it'll continue throughout the offseason. So, Sean McIndoo, I ask you, how much on a scale of one to 10 does that sound like a guy that's ready to make a big trade. Sounds, I would say, an eight out of ten. And I say this as a, accepting the obvious caveat that talk is easy. It's easy to talk about what you're willing to do and that sort of

thing. I got to say, if I'm a Rangers fan, that's exactly what I want to hear for my GM. If I'm a fan of any team, I want to hear, yeah, we're open. We're considering everything. And obviously, I'm coming at this from the place of a Leafs fan who for eight years had to hear every single year about them slamming the door, saying the exact opposite of this. No, no, we will not trade any of the core. We will not tell you're right there. We're not making any changes. It's all good. Run it back.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. No. I, you know, and I get why sometimes GMs are hesitant to say something like this. Because three months from now, if the Rangers look pretty much the same, we're all going to be saying, well, what happened? Chris Dury said he was going to do this and he didn't do it. But I want to hear a GM who's open to it, man. That's your job. It's your job to not.

And, you know, he didn't, I believe, haul even haul out the old like, well, you know, I'll listen. I'm not going to shop anyone, but I'm going to listen. Hey, man, it's your job to shop some of these guys. You know, there's not a market. Create one. This is like, you know, there's 32 of these jobs and you make millions of dollars. Go do the hard stuff. And talking about it isn't the hard part.

doing it is the hard part. He hasn't done that yet. But talking about it is the first step to doing the hard part. So I'm, I'm, I'm happy to hear this if I'm a Rangers fan. I wish he would hit the DGB a grand slam and said, you know, making trades is hard. It is hard. I'm not going to do it just for the sake of doing it. You know, I'm not going to make a trade that's going to make us worse just so that I could. Didn't Brad your living head of thing? It was like just so we can pound our chest and say, yeah, that's what we want, Brad. That's it. We'd make a bad trade and then pound your chest. That's what your stupid, stupid fans are asking for.

You know what they're going to say now? Thank you for fixing it. What they're going to say now is you can't expect us to know how much money these guys make. Yeah, now it actually is hard to make a trade because stupidly just ruined the tool that half these guys are using. All right, P-CAP friendly. I think that's it for us. Would you like to close on anything, Sean?

Do you have a closing thought? I don't typically ask you for this. Evan, I'm sorry. Okay. message delivered, it's okay. I apologize. I was wrong. You're right.

Can you please not score one additional goal for every game the series goes on in your continued attempt to humiliate me? Did that I say, Evan Rodriguez? You're welcome. Thank you for listening to The Athletic Hockey Show. Tomorrow it's Haley, it's Max, it's me. And that show is ahead of game three of the Stanley Cup final. I almost forgot the schedule because it's so. tough to keep track of game three Thursday night we'll see if Edmonton can't make a series of this

and again Haley me and max we'll uh we'll have you covered for the run-up to that tomorrow