The Athletic Hockey Show - Will Joel Quenneville’s NHL return be with the Rangers?

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

As the New York Rangers continue to spiral, Max and Laz wonder if head coach Peter Laviolette will pay the price for his underachieving team, with Joel Quenneville waiting in the wings. Plus, the guys are joined by the one and only Jeff Marek to discuss his new daily show “The Sheet” on The Nation Network, the apparent lack of an “it” team in the NHL this season, the years-long misery of the Buffalo Sabres, and more.Hosts: Max Bultman and Mark LazerusWith: Jeff MarekExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Mark Lazarus for another episode of The Fletic Hockey Show. We're going to be joined by a special guest later on in this episode. Jeff Merrick is going to join us. But, Laz, I wanted to start with the New York Rangers because I believe, as you said in our show notes earlier today, all podcasts, now all hockey podcasts, legally obligated to start with the New York Rangers and their ongoing saga of despair. Where would we be without the New York Rangers this year? Like what how deep into our bags if we had to have come up with story ideas and topics if we didn't have the New York Rangers to bat around for 20 minutes every show? No, I mean, we did three episodes on the Thanksgiving line of doom and now this is going on, I believe, episode number 10 on the New York Rangers.

But for good reason, it's gotten pretty rough there. I believe it's 10 of their last 13 they've now lost after falling last night to the St. Louis Blues, starting to get real itchy there, which is a wild sentence to say after a team has already traded its capital. But they scratch Capo Caco now. Chris Crieder had a little bit of a demotion last night, although he did end up still playing 15 minutes. But it's not going well for the Boys in Blue. You know, the funny thing is, is they're 15, 14, and 1 and 1 point out of a playoff spot right now. Do you know how many teams, your team, my team,

the teams that we cover would, how many people they would kill to get to be 15, 14 and 1 right now and 1 point out of a playoff spot. But when you start the season 12 and 4, when you're coming off the President's Trophy, when you're coming off an Eastern Conference final appearance, when you're supposed to be a cup contender, and you just fall apart like this.

I mean, they were falling apart. Like they have no energy. They don't seem to have any kind of team cohesion. Like you said, Laviolet is absolutely flailing right now, benching Kako, soft benching Kreider and Zabanajad. Like he's trying everything and nothing's working. This team has checked out. And, you know, I don't know how much of this really falls at,

Peter Lavellette's feet, but the axe is going to fall on him because what else can you do at this point? Yeah, it's always the tricky dilemma where these guys are professionals. I do not think they need a coach at any point to tell them to play hard, to fight. They're in their heads is what it is, right? And it's not, I don't think it's a knock on their professionalism. It's just a reality of humanity that when the pressure gets this high and you've seen it spiral like this, this is what we usually associate with rebuilding teams because it just seems so hopeless it starts to spiral like this.

To your point, not what you expect to see out of a team that was so close to the Stanley Cup final last season. In fact, Peter, to your point, Peter texted me earlier this year. The Redbings and Rangers are playing. Peter Ball, not Peter Lovia let. Correct. Good catch. Our coworker Peter Ball texted me earlier this season.

The Redbings were playing the Rangers and he did not like what he was seeing. And I did not want to hear it, right? I was like, Peter, you've covered only good teams. You don't know what bad is. He was getting bad vibes. and they look pretty prescient right now because nothing looks like it's going how it's supposed to. And the point that Peter made,

he had a really good column last night about kind of how much worse can this get. The answer is quite a bit because if they do not get on track here, their upcoming schedule is an absolute gauntlet. They have a, you know, they've got the predators. So get right against the predators. Because if you don't, it's Dallas, Carolina, New Jersey,

a Tampa Bay team that looks a little better than I think we thought it was going to be, a Florida team that's still really good. And you got Boston, at Washington. They go to Chicago. Again, how to win that one? They just lost to Chicago at home last week.

That's right. And that it's Dallas, New Jersey, Vegas, Colorado again. So it is a meat grinder coming up for the New York Rangers. urgency to get it right as high. Do you think that looming schedule makes it more likely that Chris Jury would want to make a move? You talk about Peter Lavillet, he's kind of the obvious guy on the hot seat right now. Is that make it more likely or less likely because a new coach is coming into a brutal? situation then too. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't think he's going to have much of a choice. I mean, the fan base is not going to tolerate this for much longer. You said something very interesting just now. You said it's not a knock on their professionalism. I kind of think it is. When you watch this team play, to me, it's a knock on their professionalism. It's a knock on their character where, you know, they're sulking. They know, you did this to our captain or are they still harping on Berkeley Goodrow? I mean, what are we doing here? Your professional athletes making millions of dollars and you're sulking.

and you're letting it affect your performance. This team is way more talented than they're playing, and they're not sticking to their structure, they're loose defensively, their lackadaisical offensively. They've got some guys that are going. The younger guys, like your Will Coollies and, you know, in Philip Heedal, like some of these guys are kind of going,

but they're not stepping to the play. They are not trying, look, like, I'm working on a story right now that I'm probably going to run sometime in January about the mental grind of the NHL and how the monotony of the NHL and how, yeah, it can be difficult to get up for a Wednesday game in Raleigh, North Carolina in game 22 of an 82 game season when you just played in the conference final.

There's some truth to that. They're just human. You're right. But when the situation has become this dire, for you not to be able to snap the hell out of it and put some effort in and try to save your coach's job, try to save your team standing, try to do something to show you care,

to show you are a professional, I don't know, this feels like a mark on the Ranger's professionalism, how long this has gone on and how embarrassing it's getting. Well, that's fair. I think where I was going with it was something maybe more akin to like the yips, right? Like sort of like a mental block where the stress and the, you know, magnitude of it. Yeah, and that absolutely happens, of course. But I do get your point that, and nobody could say you snap your fingers and get rid of the yips, right? But I do get your point where when it gets to this point, you have to kind of have that in you to flush it.

Suck it up, man. Suck it up. Go out there and do your job. job. Yeah, and that could very well be what it is. I think that's probably what Lavelylev's going for here when you promote like a Brett Barard and Jimmy Visi and they're planning your top six and Chris Kreider and Alexi Lafranier are planning your bottom six.

You know, that is kind of the message here. It's like, okay, if you guys can't find that, whether it's a fault on yours or not, I'm going to put someone else in who is. So you better find a way to find it, right? That's the message here. How's that LaFrenier contract looking right now? 7.25 million, something like that for a long time, he's not looking like a $7 million player anymore.

Well, the thing with the new cap, I think, is going to make a lot of these deals look pretty good in a couple years, right? Like, you got him for a long time. And if he's a 60 point player, which I really think he is, that's going to be easily the going rate for 60 point players. But I don't think the New York Rangers are thinking about the 2026, 27 season, or salary cap right now.

I think this is a team that most of the core, so to speak, here is trying to win right now or at least in the next year or two. If you don't like how it's trending for Chris Kreider and Mika Zabanajad right now, I don't think you want to be looking two years down the line with those guys. And after coming up back, you know, just short of the Stanley the Cup final last year, you really want to do it this year or maybe next year at the latest, while those guys are still as close to their prime as possible. Well, let's talk about the moustachioed elephant in the room here. You know, it feels like Laviolet getting fired is inevitable here. He's been fired from so many places. This is like,

a year earlier than on schedule, but I mean, it's getting to a point where Chris Drury is going to have to do something in the case. He's not going to fire himself. So it's probably going to be the coach. Is this the job that Joel Quenville walks into? This is a team that seems kind of set up for Quenville, a team that needs a kick in the butt, needs some defensive help, has a lot of veterans who have played a lot of playoff games. This seems like the kind of team that Joel Quenville can write the ship on. Do you want to bring Joel Quenville into any, Look, look, we could talk all we want about. Should we bring Joel Quentville into any situation?

And personally, I don't think we should. But he's going to get a job. It's either probably going to be in your neck of the woods in Detroit, or it's going to be here with the Rangers. Is this a team that Joel Quenville can salvage? Well, this would be the kind of situation that I think he would want to go into, right? Like, it's the kind of team that I think he's built or he's had success with in the past. And the team is built in a way that I think would suit him, right?

And you'd mentioned Detroit, the problem with, Detroit is, do you want to walk into a rebuild kind of a situation? And even if you want to say it's at the end of a rebuild, they haven't broken out of it yet. This is a team that has a lot of proven pieces that has the expectations to win now. You can probably speak to Quenville's kind of tactics and the way that he would handle this locker room right now better than I can. But it does strike me as that's the kind of team that makes a move for a guy like Quenville, and that's the kind of team that a guy like Quenville would want to take over. I don't honestly, I don't think anyone wouldn't want to take over this Rangers team right now.

every coach I think would want to take over a team with one of the best goalies in the world, one of the best defensemen in the world, and a pretty deep forward core that's ready to win right now. I do think Detroit would be a good fit because that kind of similar spot to where the Blackhawks were when Quenville took over in 2008, you know, a young team, but with a lot of talent that just needed something different to kind of galvanize them. But the Rangers, yeah, I mean, it just seems like an inevitable, almost an inevitability at this point. You know, Quenville, he kind of ushered in the modern era of hockey, this puck possession

game, the speed-oriented game. He could do a lot with Art. He knows Artemi Panarin obviously very well. He could do a lot with that team. I think he could fix a lot of their structural problems. Joel Quenville teams play hard. He works them hard, but he's a player's coach for the most part. On the ice, you know, practices are short.

He stays out of the room. It's kind of a little bit of the old boy country club. It's very different than Lavia Lett, who's kind of like a heavy hand. I think in a lot of ways on the ice, it makes perfect sense. The question is, do the New York Rangers who are already in this kind of mess that they're in want to add a massive PR mess on top of it? Because when you do hire Joel Quenville, it's going to come with a lot of warranted criticism. I haven't met James Dolan nor Chris Drury, but my understanding of kind of them does not suggest that they would be afraid of what the media thinks about really anything. And I think that is going to be a deciding factor on any team.

Let's be honest here. with the Mets and the Yankees getting all these huge free agent signings, the Giants and Jets are an absolute disarray, the Knicks are competitive and good. Joel Quentville, I mean, going to New York right now is like going to Columbus. It's going to be under the radar.

He'd be a much bigger deal and a much bigger story in that Detroit market, I feel like. And he'd have faced basically, you know, more public pressure than I think he would in New York right now. Like, as bad, like we can't stop talking about the Rangers, right? Because they're, oh my God, the Rangers are doing so bad. Sadly, I was just spent a week in New York, the Rangers are barely a blip in the newspapers right now, right? They're not on the back page.

They're not even teasers or reefers on the back page. It is all football, all baseball, and all basketball. The Rangers are under the radar right now. They are not feeling the heat that much from a local perspective. It's more from a national perspective and from the people that do cover the team on a daily basis. Quinville can probably kind of sneak in there right now, you know, and people are still going to be talking about Juan Soto. It's going to be the question is going to be there wherever he goes. The first press conference, I think, is wherever he ends up, and I agree with you, I think he's going to end up somewhere.

It's going to be heavy on this stuff, right? As it should be. There's going to be questions about what have you learned, what have you changed, what kind of guardrails is the team have in place to make sure this doesn't happen again. And here's the thing with that, if I can interrupt you real quick. Yeah. Because Quinville is not well suited to articulate these things. He is not a, you know, loquacious, verbose guy. So I don't know if he has, you know, done some.

personal reflection and rehabilitation. I've been told by some people that he has. I've been told by some people that they feel it's performative. So it depends on who you talk to. He's put in some work and he has made some phone calls. But there's no like, you know, Sheldon Keefe gave the Oilers coverage, you know, when he wrote that letter in favor of Stan Bowman. Nobody's done anything like that for Joel Quenville.

That's somewhat telling to me. But Joel Quenville in front of a press conference setting is not going to answer those questions great. He's not going to give the answers that. we all want to hear. It's just not the way he speaks. So it's going to be awkward and uncomfortable. He's going to say the wrong thing. It's going to be really messy for a little while. But I guess where I'm going with that is, if you're in a place and if you're working for boss or a boss is who aren't that worried about what the media is going to say about you on day

one, that's basically the limit. Because those questions are happening anywhere, no matter how big or small the market. And the question is, does your owner and does your general manager care about what the headline reads the next day or not. And obviously they're not. Anyone who hires him knows what comes with it, right? It's going to be questions for, and it's not just going to be the first couple of days. It's going to be every time, you know,

he goes into a Canadian city, you know, the local columnists are going to want to weigh in. When he comes to Chicago, it's going to be a huge deal. Correct. You know, it's not going to be like the fun Patrick Kane return, right? I mean, he'll probably get a standing ovation from the majority of Blackhawks fans. I don't pretend otherwise.

He is still beloved by a huge segment of the fan base here in Chicago. but he's going to be met with a very critical eyes, a lot of scrutiny and a lot of stories about how is he treating players, how aware is he of what's going on in the locker room, how blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And justifiably so. He needs to be held accountable because a lot of people, you know, don't believe he should be in the NHL at all. He's been, it's been, what, three years now.

That's a pretty big, pretty big punishment he faced. I'm not going to diminish that. Three years is a long, you know, shadow ban, basically. but to me it always comes out. Is this the guy you want leading, being in charge of the young men that he's leading? And I don't know how you could think that after what happened in 2010. And that's fair.

I mean, it will come down to whether James Dolan and whether Chris Jerry agree. Oh, he'll get hired by somebody. There's no question about it. He will be the next good job that comes around he's going to get. And I think Detroit is a good job. And I think the Rangers is a good job. And the next good job that comes around,

Obviously, it couldn't be Chicago when they fired Luke Richardson. They weren't going to give Joel Quenville a call. That wasn't going to happen. But the next big time job that comes around, Joel Quenville's the favorite to get it. All right, so here's my question. Does it matter that it's in season? When you're a coach, it hasn't coached in three years, especially.

Do you think you need that training camp? Do you think you need that run up? Is the fact that it would be an in-season change that we're talking about, again, in a hypothetical end here. We should stay down a little clear. We are pure speculation. We are assuming something could happen here. if something happens, it would be an in-season change.

Is that suit a guy who hasn't coached in the league in three years? You know, I don't think, I think when you're the second winningest coach in the history of the sport, you can jump in on the fly. He did that in Chicago in 2008. I mean, he was four games into the season. He didn't have a training camp when he replaced Denny Savard. Ideally, of course, you'd rather have a training camp. But Joel Quenville is the kind of guy you bring in to fix a situation in a hurry, right?

So whichever team does end up hiring him is still going to be looking at this season as salvageable. So I don't think it's a huge deal. Among players, he still carries a tremendous amount of respect. He knows the game well. I don't think he's been unplugged for three years. I'm sure he's been watching and paying attention and thinking and strategizing. He's an older guy, but he has always been at the forefront of kind of hockey thought

in terms of on-ice strategies and stuff. And I don't think that'll be a major concern. All right, Laz, the main thing I wanted to talk about today, steps from a conversation I was having this weekend about kind of the NHL as a whole this year. And there isn't really that one it team or two teams that really grab you and you say, oh, I want to see these teams in the final. I think we're going to see these teams on the final. I think we all expected that was going to be the Edmonton Oilers.

And I still, you know, I think we probably will see them in the final. But it hasn't had that kind of convincing season yet so far to really get you there. Do you agree with that? Am I off base here? I'm surprised you think that we're still probably going to see the oilers in the in the, I, I, I, I, you're 100% right. Like, there's nobody in this entire NHL right now that I feel really good about, right? Like, you look at the top few teams and the capitals, the wild, and the jets. None of us had that coming.

So there's this natural human instinct. Well, I didn't see it coming. So it can't be real, right? Like, I would love for the Minnesota wild to be really good and to make a deep, run and a Stanley Cup from Minnesota would be great. That's one of my favorite fan bases. They all hate me right now because I put my foot in my mouth on this show a couple of months ago.

But I've always loved going to games in Minnesota. They care so deeply. That's why they can be so obnoxious. It's like a good kind of obnoxious. They care so much. They take everything so personally. And they have had nothing but the most mediocre team to root for. Every year they're fine.

They're never terrible. They're never good. They're fine. And I would love for a truly great Minnesota team. to come. And Carilla Capri's off season he's having. It's all fantastic. But do you really feel they're what, two, six, and one against Western Conference playoff teams right now? Do you really feel like the

Minnesota Wild are like a lock to go deep in the playoffs right now? I don't feel that about anybody. Even the Panthers, just because I've seen what happens when you go make these deep run after deep run after deep run, you do fall off a cliff eventually. And as good as that team is, and they're still probably the best team out there, that could stop through no fault of their own.

So, like, I think you're right. Like, who do you feel good about right now? I still feel good about the teams that I know what to expect from. It is it's the Panthers. It's the Oilers. Vegas is probably the one division leader that I feel pretty good about. And even then, I don't know that I think this is like the best Vegas team that we've seen of this era, certainly. To your point, I mean, three of the four division leaders would be Winnipeg, Washington, and Toronto right now.

Wouldn't have any of those teams ever disappointed us in the first round of the playoffs, right? So there is a little bit of cautiousness. So I'm kind of defaulting back to the teams that I, and I guess I'll say this. There's two more teams that are that are not the obvious teams, I guess. Dallas maybe borders on the obvious teams. I think we were all pretty much picking them. I feel like I picked Dallas to win the cup every year, and I'm standing by it until they actually do. I agree.

They're just so complete. But there's no people I was thinking about. And this team was kind of the hot team in the offseason. It's the New Jersey Devils. They're off to like a good start. They've played a lot of games, which helps their point total here. but when I just look at their blue line specifically, there is something about that New Jersey blue line

that really speaks to me, right? Like it's just every kind of player you would want. You got your Dougie Hamilton's, your Brett Peshys, Luke Hughes, Jonas Siegenthallor, Brendan Dillon. Jonathan Kovicevich is a way better player than I had realized. I got to see him live a couple times this year,

and he is way better than I was mentally giving him credit for. That's a really good, well-rounded blue line that New Jersey has. And I think they're going to have to get kind of playing, playoff hockey. I know that there's a lot of rush dependent players on this team. But if the New Jersey Devils can kind of

click in and find that style, that is a roster build that I find very appealing. Yeah, I was just in New Jersey on Saturday for the Black Hawk's Devils game. And you're right. I mean, it's, when you got a Heeshire, Jack Hughes, one two punch up the middle, you got guys like Dawson Mercer on the wing, yes for Brat.

Tim O'Meier, Andre Palad is obviously a proven playoff performer. They got some death. Stefan Nason's been a great addition for them. The defense, like you said, is great. They finally have the goalie in Markstrom. I mean, this is a team that's built to win. It's such a strange team because two years ago, they came out of nowhere and they're like, oh my God, they're a contender. And then last year, the bottom fell out on them and they were terrible. And this year, they'd make a couple of tweaks and here they are again, right where we expected them to be. But again, they're flawed. They're not perfect.

They're not dominating teams the way maybe we would have thought they would. And you look around and every team that might win the Stanley Cup this year, you can come up with a really big reason why they won't. We did a whole podcast on a couple weeks ago. There you go. Fatal flaws. Yeah. So here's my question with the Minnesota's and the Washington's and the Winnipegs of the world. What would it take for you to believe that they are that team, to buy the hot start, to buy the standings position and say, I'm not that worried about it anymore. I need to see a playoff win or two, right? I need to see them get into the second or third round before. There's nothing they could do in the regular season. It's not fair to them,

but I don't put a lot of stock in the regular season. Certainly, they're better teams than I thought they were going to be. Nobody saw this from Washington, right? We saw Washington in the playoffs last year, play the Rangers, and we're like, oh, my God, this is the worst playoff team any of us has ever seen. And now here they are, and I think they're first overall in the entire NHL. None of this makes sense. And they're doing it with Ovechkin hurt.

So I need to see it in the playoffs, though. I need to see it when it matters. I need to see if some of these teams that are kind of like coasting through right now are able to flip that switch, because like a team like Dallas, a team like, you know, even if the Rangers, you know, write the ship, a team like Carolina, a team like Florida, Edmonton, they don't need to go guns blazing right now. This is December. They're conserving energy.

They're coasting a little bit. We saw this for years with Chicago and L.A. and Pittsburgh. They didn't put that much stock in the regular season because they knew seating doesn't matter that much. Home ice doesn't matter that much. What matters the most is feeling the best come playoff time. And a lot of teams kind of conserve energy like a really savvy. defenseman who could play 30 minutes a night because he's not going all out all the time. So until I see a team like Winnipeg or Minnesota or Washington really dominate a playoff

series, it's just going to be in my nature to be skeptical of them. I wonder if that makes this a year that one of these teams that's been knocking on the door forever, like the Carolinas, like the Dallas's, that makes it kind of this is your time, right? Like the Toronto's? Right, or a tour. Lord, they've been knocking on the door. Like your St. Louis Blues of whatever year that was. was 2019, I think, where you've been around it forever. And then finally, there's just not that one team that you can't get by anymore.

And you find it. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a Dallas, Carolina Stanley Cup final, frankly. Gary Bedman would hate that, but I would love to see it. That'd be a great series, absolutely. All right, let's take a quick break right there. We'll be back with Jeff Merrick. All right, we are joined now by the great Jeff Merrick. Jeff has joined the Nation Network with his new daily show, The Sheet.

It'll dive into the latest news, rumors, and game insights across the NHL, PWHL, and junior hockey, while bringing Merrick's signature style back to listeners after some time away. We are thrilled to be joined by him today. I think it's the first time, Jeff, we've had this role reversal. Usually you're having us on his guests, so thanks for joining us. Very true, and thanks for having me. But I do have to ask. I do have to ask you guys, did I not give you enough content in the summer?

I'm an athletic guy. I'm a subscriber. I go there. I daily stop, you know, two or three times a day, always refreshing, see what's doing with the athletic. And there's my story. front and center for, I don't know how. I know it was a slow summer, I guess. I'm like, holy smokes. I'm like, I was halfway, I was halfway joker. Like, you know, there's an old saying,

there's no I in team, but there's two eyes and invoice. I'm like, who do I send the invoice? I'll tell you, I saw the numbers and those were the most red stories we had all summer. Slow summer. Slow summer, slow summer. Anyway, did I not give you enough? Did I not give you enough? I know you can't get into details, but what were these last few nights just being off, the air and not being not having an outlet to just spew the thoughts that come into your head. What does that like? I mean, it's it's the first time since, oh, geez, like, I don't know, probably the first time in like 25 years that, you know, that, so, you know, September rolls around.

You don't have a place to go or say anything or it's, I always wonder about, you know, what that first year of retirement is like for hockey players. You know, you don't have a training camp to go to. You don't have a team to go to. You don't have an environment where, you know, you're competing for something. And I always, you know, wonder what that feeling is like. And now I kind of know it, you know, in a certain degree in broadcasting. But it was, it was weird.

Like, it wasn't as if I was, I know, I kept getting notes and be like, are you okay? I'm like, I'm fine. Like, you know, I'm happy. I'm healthy. I'm, you know, able to do things in September, October, November that I wasn't able to do before. I got to spend more time with my kids and their sports and more time, you know, going to the gym and catching up on sleep and, you know, just watching hockey games and then going to bed and then, you know, it's so it was, it was a different feeling.

Not one that I want to get too comfortable with just yet in my career. Like I still, I still, I still enjoy the grind of all of it. I still enjoy that daily routine of and that day, I need that daily discipline of this is what I'm doing every single day and these are the things that I do in the evening, in the morning, in the afternoon, et cetera. I mean, I don't know how to describe it other than really it was, it was bizarre. And now I kind of have a little bit of a sense of what players go through that first year when they retire and they don't have, they don't have a team to go to. So were you just blowing up all your friends' phones with the takes that you would normally get to

send off on the podcast? Who bore the brunt of the take buildup in your brain? There's a, so I still have the same sort of network of people that I talk to both in and out of the NHL. So it wasn't as if I was completely unplugged from it. I just didn't have a place to voice it publicly. So yeah, they got the brunt of it. A lot of them are listening right now and I'll publicly say thank you for listening to my inane observations that were like the most empty calorie takes because they couldn't go anywhere over the first few months of the season. It's funny. I wrote a story once about how hockey players have to change their clothes like 10 or 11 times every single day because of the way their routines are set during game days. And I got a text from a former player the day that ran. He said, the day I woke up, the day after I retired, I put on my clothes and realized, oh my God, I'm going to get to wear these for the rest of the day. And it is. It's weird. We don't have that routine. It changes your whole life. Although, I'll give you another one. I'm not that I'm trying to like big dog every single story here. But let me give you another one here, Laz. I remember talking to you.

I was always a big Sabres fan growing up. So meeting Gilbert Perrault and ending up talking to him at various events is always a big thrill for me. By the way, the king of karaoke. The king of karaoke is Gilbert Perrault. Although having said that, you have not lived until you've heard Mike Keenan sing the Commodore's Easy, which is still one of my favorite memories of all time. But so Gilbert Perrault told me once, he said, you know, after he retired,

because you know what athletes are like. You can have a, you can wake up at 2.30 in the morning and order a room service banana split. And it doesn't mean anything because you're going to burn it off in about four hours at the skates. But that doesn't happen when you're retired.

And Perot told me when it comes to wardrobe, he said he has three closets in his house. One for when he's 215, one for when he's 2.30, and one for when he's 2.45. I sort of vary all in between there, depending on my mood and my exercise routine. But he's got like three distinct post-career closets

based on how much you weighs. That's amazing. We were talking today before you came on, Jeff, about the NHL landscape this season. There's not that team that's really grabbed you, or at least the ones that have, aren't the teams that we were prepared to accept as this year's team of inevitability. It's a lot of teams like Minnesota, like Winnipeg, like Washington, who have kind of come out of nowhere. There doesn't seem like there's that it team. I agree.

I think it's a great observation. there doesn't seem to be one that's running away with it. But I, and whenever I say that, Max, I always think in the back of my mind, the Florida Panthers are just waiting in the weeds here, right? Like, do you not get the sense that the Florida Panthers in their minds kind of look at themselves in some ways as, and this is going to seem like a huge compliment? And I do intend it as a compliment, but maybe not as big as it's going to sound. like that Islanders dynasty.

Like stylistically, stylistically, the Florida Panthers play in some ways like that Islanders team. They can play any way you want. You want to play a two to one game. They'll beat you at it. You want to play a wide open river hockey game.

They'll beat you at it. You want to be tough as well. That's fine. They have the guys to play tough and they have the guys to play skilled and they have award winners at every single position. and they have an elite level veteran coach.

And the New York Islanders were kind of one of those teams that never sort of blew their brains out all regular season long. They knew when it was time to, when it was time to turn it on. And whenever I say to myself, oh, this is going to be awesome, it's jump ball, and nobody knows who's going to win the Stanley Cup, and could there be a new one here? And is it finally the time for Dallas to pop

and what's Colorado going to do? And can Minnesota sustain with a $14 million black hole? I always say to myself, don't forget about the Florida Panthers here. I know every now and then they'll get blown out or they'll lose a game like that Vancouver game last week where they got shut out and didn't look that great.

The score was kind of kind to them. But I always say to myself, the Florida Panthers are a super legit team. I don't think that their thirst for the Stanley Cup has been quenched just yet. So whenever I say, yeah, it's jump ball. I always remind myself, I could see the Florida Panthers winning this thing all over again. Because at times when they want to remind teams how good they are and they flex, like, it's impressive.

They just have realized they don't need to flex 82 times a season. Well, that's just it. I mean, you reach a point as a team when you have, you realize that the regular season isn't really that important. Your seating isn't really that important. I remember talking to Patrick Sharp in like the dog days of the 2014-15 season with Chicago. when they had clearly reached that point where they just did not give a flying, you know what, about the regular season

because they knew whether we're the one seat or the six seat, we can beat anybody, we could play any game, we can win anywhere. And I remember Sharp saying it's like, I just don't know how you get up for every single game. You know, you're God, it's Thursday night and we're in sunrise Florida. And what are we doing here?

It's November. Who cares? Let's just get to the playoffs. And when the Panthers have played, what, 50 more games than anyone else? Eventually they'll hit that wall. But they also know how to find that wall and find that switch on it.

That's a really interesting point. Could we park that for once? Could we sort of park on this point for one second? But the idea of pacing through a season, not just for teams, but for players as well. Like I know fans don't want to hear that a player is going to pace himself through a season.

They want, you know, 82 games of 100, 110% every time that they get on the ice. 82 games is long. And if you can't pace yourself through a season, whether you're a team or whether you're more specifically an individual player, come playoff time, I don't know how many guys won't be burned out. If you play 82, like legitimate, I'm going full out here.

And that used to bother me. You know, you're paid for 82 games. Give a full effort for 82 games. But I just don't know that we're in an era now where you can't. Or maybe we've never been in an era where you can play like a full season and have enough left from the tank, not just to play in the playoffs, but ratchet it up. Like I remember there was one and this player is in the hockey. Hall of Fame. The story that I heard at the beginning of the season going up to his coach and saying,

look, this is the way it's going to be. 30 games, I'm going to look like an All-Star. I'm going to be a surefire Hall of Famer. You're going to say, this guy was the best player I ever coached. 30 games, I'm going to be invisible. And for the next 22, I'm just going to see how I feel that day. And part of me, for part of me that really bugs me, like as someone that enjoys hockey, but I get it. Like I understand the idea of pacing yourself as an individual through the season, just like I understand the idea of pacing yourself as a team through a season, which to me doesn't mean that,

okay, you know what, we're going to go 0 and 3 on our California trip this weekend deliberately because we're going to mail it in. But you just don't let it bother you. It's just like, eh, shrug it, rearview, mirror, move on. Remember the way the LA Kings played when they were on top of the world, that really super heavy, so physical, just grind you into sand style. And I remember, I think it was Dustin Brown during the playoffs.

Someone asked him, it's like, why do you play so much different in the playoffs? He's like, because you can't play this way for 82 games. You'll be dead by the end of the season. I wonder if that helps explain why we see teams that, you know, kind of seem like they're getting over the hump. And then they struggle at first in the playoffs. I wonder if you almost have to be familiar with that schedule and what it feels like to play into May to know how to play in the regular season to be prepared to do it. It's a skill and you can hear all about it all you want, but until you experience it,

you don't really know. That's sort of what I've settled on. And I know that sometimes we exaggerate the cups in the room, the rings in the room, and you have to have these guys on the bench beside you and these guys in the room, guys that have done it before, put the arm around the shoulder, here's how you do it, son. But I get it. Like, really, like, it is one of the most unique experiences you will have in all the

sports. The difference between regular season hockey and playoff hockey is so profound that it almost looks like a different game. So I get it. I know I sideways snickered out. Oh, here we go. Rings in the room. Rings in the room. But for players, it does, it means something.

It, you need someone who can, it's almost as if you need the rings in the room guys more for the regular season to remind players of how hard it's going to be. So don't sweat it right now. Okay, so you were dash three last night. Park it. Rearview. It doesn't matter. playoffs are coming up. You need to have that skill.

They have that ability. Like that's another thing, too, the ability to forget things. You know, the best example I heard of that were the Cronwall brothers. And Stefan Cronwell was a really good player. He just, he, he, it never really worked for him because unlike his brother, well, first of all, his brother was much more physical, but unlike his brother, if he had a bad shift or two bad shifts in the first period, his game was gone. his game. But Nicholas Cronwell could go out there to have a bad shift, no problem.

And could still finish the game. Stefan Cronwell always held on to it. The ability to pace yourself and forget things, I think is a couple of things that we don't pay enough attention to as far as what goes in to making an elite level or a really good player in the NHL. The ability is to park it and forget it. I think that's, I think that really is a skill. That's a mental skill. I think it's an important one to have if you're a player. There is a team that we've been waiting to see turn it on since about 2011, and that's the Buffalo Sabres. Jeff, what do you see in watching Buffalo right now?

Obviously, looks like another frustrating season out there. I look at a team again, and I say inexperience everywhere, outside of, well, let me get to the management in a second. as far as players go, I look at a team, if you look at teams, I put on my like Aristotle hat here. I got to put my degree to work somehow.

Aristotle would always say, you look at everything in life, and you say it exists in one of two states, potentiality or actuality. And you look at the Buffalo Sabres, and it's always been a team that has existed in a state of potentiality. Players have not been able to actualize

because certainly for this edition of the Buffalo Sabers, they've all been rushed. Like, again, like I'll always go back to the cliche, show me the player that was hurt by spending a little bit extra time or any time at all in the American Hockey League. It's this idea of, you know, rush, rush, rush to the NHL. These kids are good. Get them in the NHL. NHL is not a development league.

It is for some extent, like the learning how to be a pro with the NHL, but like it shouldn't be used as a way to teach a player. Like the American Hockey League is the hockey finishing school, right? That's what we learned how to play the defensive end of the puck, learn how to be a pro. all the day-to-day, the grind and all of that. But if you look at this Buffalo Sabres roster, the story is players that were rushed

who either spent no time or very minimal time in the American League. And we'll look at someone like Jack Quinn, for example. And Jack Quinn, you looked at it and he said, okay, so he's the rookie of the year in the American Hockey League. This is great. Things are going fantastic. And the playoffs starts in the American League, and he doesn't piss a drop and he has a hard time.

It has a really, really struggle. So you say to yourself, rookie of the year, that's great, but still hasn't been able to put it together when the game is heavier in the postseason. So he should go back to the American hockey league. There's still something to learn there. It gets rushed into the NHL. Dylan Cousins, like, you can go right down the line, right? I go to Elite Prospects HockeyDB and have a look at the time that any of these players spent in the American League. That's what I look at with this Buffalo Sabres team.

It's not, you know, palm trees and free agents and taxes and all that. No, it's the story of players that got rushed. And here's what happens when you rush players and reward them too early. That to me is the story of the Buffalo Sabres. As far as everything above, and this is a management story, it's the story of an experience. And I'm all in favor of outside the box thinking. I don't think there's any one way to run a team or any one style of person that can run a team. But you do. do have to have some experience. Like you do have have to have at least some experienced hands on the wheel. And outside of Jason Carmanos, you don't really see that with the Buffalo Sabres. It's, you know, decisions that are made with a really inexperienced staff. If you look at all the people that were brought in from the Academy of Hockey with Kevin Adams, like all of them were out within like, what was it, guys, like six months to a year, like gone. But it's a story of, of inexperience here.

So when you have rushed hockey players and inexperienced front office, maybe the only thing we should do with the Buffalo Sabres is look at it and say, what did you expect to happen? This was inevitable, wasn't it? That's how it seems to me. Do you think that once you're on, like once you've made that mistake, let's assume it's the mistake, that's the problem is that they're not letting them ripen enough? Do you think you can recover from it? Like if there are these guys that, you know, you're Zach Benson's of the world, you know, obviously he had the CHLL. NHL agreement to contend with couldn't go to the HL. But he's there.

Like how salvage will, what does it take to salvage a guy who has been rushed to the NHL, do you think? I think you do, although I think they kind of went into it backwards. I think you can always change courses. It's only a matter of, you know, does management. And in this case, the manager, completely break with his philosophy of sending, you know, young talented players into the NHL soon,

maybe just because he saw it happen in Chicago when he was there with 88 and 19. But the problem is there's no 88 and 19 on the Buffalo Sabres. Some kids can do it. The majority of kids need some time in the American Hockey League. You can. I mean, you look at what they're doing with Devon Levi. Now, Devin Levi was, we all hope, is salvageable here because, I mean, every social media account the Buffalo Sabres had was flooded with Devin Levi when he turned pro. And he was, you know, there was a royal road out in front of him to the Buffalo Sabers net.

And you can recall last year it took Oka Pekalukin, what was it, eight games? It was it, scratch for eight games, nine games in a row guys, because they thought it was going to be Comrie and Levi as their guys. Now, thankfully, although Levi's been called up and, you know, had a tough one against the Toronto Maple Leafs on Sunday. Thankfully, Devon Levi is basically where he belongs, and that's Rochester of the American Hockey League. I know in some cases that's not going to work because the players that have been rushed will get claimed on waiver. but still, there is still time to send players down there, but it's going to take an organizational change of philosophy here in order to try to salvage this addition of the Buffalo Sabres.

You know, hearing, I'll tell you what, what was, and Mike Harrington tweeted this out, I think it's a really good point. When Lindy Ruff said like, you know, this one is on me and only on me, I understand the idea of the veteran coach taking responsibility. part of me wonders if that's not a shot, but a statement at Buffalo Sabres management in that I need to coach us out of this because we're not going to get any help from up top here. That's frightening. Yeah.

The part of this is just like this is the expectation we've created, whether it's from the press or it's from the fan base, guys like McDavid have so wrecked the curve that everyone expects every top pick to play immediately and to be a difference maker immediately. And it becomes harder and harder to sell your fan. basin, you're going to have to wait a couple of years to see this guy. Like, in baseball, you draft an 18 year old. You're not going to see that guy for like five years. Yeah.

Can I take this off the hockey page, but to make the hockey exempts. So I agree with you. We do have these unreal expectations. Like, you're a first overall pick. You're going into the NHL, right? I mean, but listen, it's nothing new. We can all remember Joe Thornton in 97, where he should have gone back to the two Greyhounds, struggle that first season in Boston.

And we all said, like, I don't know. Did the Boston Bruins make a. a dud pick here with the big kid from the greyhounds. But you're right, we do have an unrealistic expectation about how much impact young high draft picks can have. But I almost look at that, as it's more of a comment on society as well. And I think a lot of it is because of our technology, that because of our technology, I think we have an unreal expectation of how quickly things can change because it's not just a matter of, oh, the Buffalo Sabres need a software update. And then everything will be fine. Like, these are human beings that we're talking about here. And I understand

that it is 13 years of frustration for the Buffalo Sabres. So don't tell me about iOS update Merrick. When you're talking about the Buffalo Sabres, it's been a long time. But I do think that we do have an unreal expectation of how quickly players can get to a certain place in their career. And I think a lot of it has to do with A, which you mentioned about the expectations of high picks, certainly first overalls. And second, man, every day we deal with, you know, laptop. and phones that solve things quickly. Human beings can't get solved quickly as quickly as our technology can. I think that because of our technology, we have an unrealistic expectation of how quickly

things can turn around. Agree, disagree. We're getting philosophical here. I like it. No, sorry. This is a I want it now society that we live in. I know. I have no patience for anything.

My kids have no patience for anything. You know, our brains have been completely rewired. We want instant satisfaction. Yeah. And here's the thing. I always try to, whenever I, I always try to give things sort of a 360 view. Okay, try to put yourself in every single person's place in any issue. Rashomon, Akira Kurosawa, the great movie, right?

It was something happens. And then the rest of the movie is all seen from everyone else's perspective. If we want to pop culture it up a little bit, Gilligan's Island did a takeoff on it. So don't think that I'm being too high culture here dropping Kurosawa's name. we, if you're Kevin Adams at this point and you say, look, and you go out there and you preach pay, let's say that there's a change of course here. And they're going to go back to like, okay, you know, we rush too many kids. We're going to, we're going to change course here.

And Sabres fans say, well, it's been 13 years. We're done with patience. If you're Kevin Adams, like, what can you say? Like, what's the alternative here? Like, there's, there's nothing, because there's not a quick fix. there's not one magic pill that's going to, or one magic trade that's going to turn the Buffalo Sabres around. Dominic Hasich is not walking through that door for the Buffalo Sabres here.

You know, the ghost of Toblake behind the bench is not walking through that door to coach the Buffalo Sabres. So what do you do when you're faced with that question other than say, sorry, but this is going to take a while longer still. We've made some mistakes and now we're going to have to correct them. But then again, that's considering,

That's assuming that Kevin Adams is willing to say that he's made mistakes with this team. Yeah, I think your only option is to eat the frustration because at least assuming that he agrees with us that this is the right course of action, right? My feeling is if you're Kevin Adams and you're going to go out, so to speak, you got to go out at least knowing you gave it your best shot. You did it how you wanted to do it. You didn't just cave to fan sentiment, you know? Can I ask you a question, Max, on that?

Yeah. Do you not get the sense? And we saw this last week. Like there was a couple of really interesting Lindy Ruff pressers. And the one that sticks with me is whenever I hear a coach say, a new coach, say, okay, you know, now I know what we have here. And Lindy Ruff said something along the lines,

and I'm paraphrasing here, something along the lines of, after 25 games, you know what you have with your team. When I put on my NHL coach decodering, to me that means that's the coach saying, I'm sick of doing it their way. Now we're doing it my way. Did you read Lindy Ruff's comments the same way? That that was Ruff saying,

okay, now I know what I have here. I don't care what the plan was for the organization or how they wanted this to go. Now I'm doing things my way. Because then, you know, it was right after we saw players like Owen Power sat on the bench for a long stretch of time. That it not seem as if that was,

that was Lindy Ruff's way of in. And now he said, saying like this is going to rest with me and me only. This is Lindy Ruff's way of saying, if I'm going out, I'm doing it my way with my guys. Yeah, and I think that's the only way he can look at it, right? Like he's going to be assessed on how he does with someone else's players. He at least has to coach them the way he wants to coach them. Yep.

This is a veteran coach who's who's talking about this is the toughest situation he's ever been in. And it is. I mean, and this is, you know, this is someone that's, you know, been around the NHL for a long time, has had success, has had failures. has coached different styles with different teams. You know, I think of those, I think of those carefree Halcy on Dallas Stars days where we were hoping it was going to be a Dallas Stars,

Washington Capitals, because Gabby was coaching the Capitals and nobody wanted to play defense on either Dallas or Washington. It was going to be so much fun to watch in the final. And then we realized, yeah, that's not even going to get you there in the first place, but like Lindy Ruff's been around, man. Like, and he's coached a lot of different players

and a lot of different teams. And it's almost as if he's saying to himself, here, not, you know, why did I take this job, but more like, wow, I knew this was going to be a heavy lift, but I didn't know it was going to be this heavy. I wanted to ask you about another veteran coach. We opened the podcast because federal podcast law mandates. We talked about the New York Rangers. And, you know, we got into the Joel Quentville conversation.

I mean, Joel Quenville learns large over every possible coach firing right now. Do you think you've been around this game a long time, you know, a lot of players, do you think, you know, people like us, we are going to be casting a wearing eye towards Joel Quinville returning to an NHL bench. This guy was incredibly well respected among players. He is a players coach, players that have played for him, love him, they worship him. Do you think that any modern players would be upset if a team hired Joel Quendville, given what happened with Brad Aldrich in 2010? Based on any conversation I've had with any player and, you know, Las Max, you can tell

me different. I think the answer is no. I think that players are mostly. concerned with wins and success and playoffs and contracts. I think that the Rangers, the Rangers situation is an interesting one. You know, just before I hopped on with you guys,

I was having a conversation with someone about the New York Rangers and, you know, various moves that we could see. And the one thing that you always, like the one wild card you always have to come back to with the New York Rangers is, you know, the owner can do anything at any time. and we've seen it before, we've seen it before from Dolan. You know,

it could wake up tomorrow and everything's changed, right? That's the one thing I think you need to consider with the New York Rangers. I don't think the New York Rangers want to fire Peter LaViolette. Now, this is year two of a long-term contract, and I don't think they want that, even though the history of Peter La-Volette is,

you know, the first season under Peter La-Volette, the season gets hot-shot it. And we saw that last year with the New York Rangers. I think that Quenville's name, to your point, does loom large over every potential coaching decision. And I think if I'm the NHL, I would like Joel Quinville if he's going to reemerge to reemerge in a quieter market than New York. But if you're Joel Quenville, and again, I'll go back to my put yourself in everybody's shoes here. if you're Joel Quenville, what's your motivation right now? You're chasing wins records and you're looking at, you know,

what's it going to say on your plaque at Young and Front Street at the Hockey Hall of Fame. I think that's what you're chasing and you want to put yourself in the best possible position. Like I think there are some teams that are out there, some of the lower end teams in the NHL that if Quenville called, they'd make the coaching change like that. But I don't think he's interested, I think he's interested in setting himself up with an organization that is poised to win a lot of games for a lot of years. I think that's why a lot of us will wonder about the Detroit Red Wings with Joel Quenville. But I think in any coaching decision, you know, whether it's, you know, expected or a surprise,

I think that Quinville's name is very much going to be out there now that now that teams know that he's available to be behind NHL bench again. All right. I got one more for you on the Sabres before we let you go, Merrick. Sure. We talked about some of these young players, and there is a guy on their team who I think has been especially confounding because he seemed for a few years like Dylan Cousins was just going up, up, up, and he looked like the next two-way center force. And now the last couple of years, it's gone the other direction. And I wonder how you would proceed with Dylan Cousins or how you see them proceeding with Dylan Cousins, because obviously if they want to make a shake-up, he's a guy that would have value.

But on the other hand, they've seen so many centers that they've traded away go on to have a roaring, success elsewhere. This is why I love being in a position where I talk from the backseat. I would hate to have my hands on the wheel of this decision. Like, just think about it. You know, here's a guy who's not that far removed from a 30-goal season to your point, you know, really, you know, has high-end skills, only a handful of years into his career. It's a bad situation. Like you don't want to necessarily make a decision on an elite level player in an environment like this. Yet on the other hand, I'm sure there are teams that are, you know, that are lining up. And I'm sure that there's some offers out there that are embarrassingly low.

But I also think there are some teams to legitimately look at Dylan Cousins and say there's a much better player in there. Get them in our sister. Like how many times have you ever heard that? Glenn Sather was famous for this, right? Oh, you know what? The second chance. guy, right? The reclamation project. Not say that, you know, Dylan Cousins is at reclamation project level yet for his career. But Glenn Say there was always someone who was second, third, fourth chances

on guys because it's the arrogance of a GM and I think you have to have it, which is way till we get him in our program? Where do we get him into our system? Where do we get him here? All of a sudden, you'll see all the benefits of being with the Rangers slash Oilers and we'll turn him into the

player that we always suspected he could be. I think there are a lot of teams out there. that look at Dylan Cousins and say, if we could get our hands on him and get him into our organization, then you'd see the best of what Dylan Cousins has to offer, given the season that he's having and the frustration. And we're seeing him like,

you know, he saw him in that, that Maple Leaf game, you know, smashing his stick and the misconduct. He's not, he's not doing a good job of hiding his emotions. Okay, like, we get it. Like, we understand it. But if I'm Kevin Adams, and I've looked at the history of trading players away and watching them win Stanley Cups with this organization and it looms large. I mean, how many Buffalo Sabres on that Florida team last year alone? Oh, yeah.

It's remarkable. I would be so terrified to make a move right now, unless it is a tape measure home run for the Buffalo Sabres. I'd be really scared right now. Again, privileged position sit in the back seat. Oh, here's what Kevin Adams needs to do. If I was Kevin Adams, remember Brian Burke once told me the first trade that he, but the first big trade he made was Bobby Holick.

And there was no one around, no AGM, no senior advisors, nothing. And he said, he picked up the phone to call New Jersey, Lou, old, you know, mentor from Providence College. And he started to dial and then hung up the phone. Walked around his office. And I went back to pick up the phone to call Lou. Too nervous. hung up the phone again.

Went for a walk. And they came back, picked up the phone again, started to dial, still couldn't do it, looked around the office, no one's there to consult with. This is all on him. This is his decision and he was going to wear it. That must be what Kevin Adams feels like. Like how many times, let me ask you the guys, how many times do you think Kevin Adams had another GM's number queued up in his phone and hung up before he hit send?

I'm guessing it's probably more than a couple. Not zero. I'd be terrified. I'd be terrified. He's Jeff Merrick. You can find his new show, The Sheet on the Nation Network. Jeff, tell everyone what they need to know.

Monday to Friday, three to four Eastern on our daily faceoff YouTube channel and then uploaded wherever you get your podcast, your Apple pods, your Spotify's, etc. All shows archive that YouTube as well. Guys, listen, I know I joked out the top,

but listen, I'm a huge, listen, we all are, I mean, everybody reads, everybody listens, You guys have a real dynamic podcast division. It's a real honor being on shows that I listen to every day. I always say it's like podcast fantasy camp. When you get to go on shows you listen to. So thanks for the half hour podcast fantasy camp here, guys.

Thank you. Lasz Venmo will hit you any minute now. So thank you. Thank you very much. One eye and team, two eyes and invoice, boys. Two eyes and invoice. I'm going to remember that one. I'm going to remember that one.

My gift to you. That's going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. Please, if you're inclined to leave us a rating and a review, especially if you're enjoying the show. Sean Gentilly, Sean McIndoo, and Frankie, Sean Carrado. Have you covered on Wednesday? Talk to you then.