The Athletic Hockey Show - Will the Hart Trophy go to a non-forward this year?

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

Max Bultman, Shayna Goldman and Peter Baugh debate the chances for a goalie or a defenceman to win the NHL's MVP award, traditionally won by a forward with players like Connor Hellebuyck, Zach Werenski and Quinn Hughes having Hart Trophy calibre seasons for their clubs. They discuss X-factors for teams hunting for a playoff spot, with less than 20 games to go in the season. Plus, we welcome Ryan McDonagh of the Tampa Bay Lightning to discuss his thoughts on the Bolts chances this spring, if it's time that a defender or goalie wins the Hart, and his partnership with the new Body Check Cup.Host: Max BultmanWith: Shayna Goldman and Peter BaughGuest: Ryan McDonaghExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the athletic hockey show presented by E-Trade from Morgan Stanley, Max Bolton here alongside Shana Goldman and Peter Baugh, filling in for Haley Salveon and Sean Gentilly this week. Ryan McDonough is going to join us a little bit later on. But first, Shana, I wanted to talk about the Hart Trophy debate this year, which is shaping up to be one of the most interesting we've had a number of years.

And I say that after we had a great heart debate and race a year ago. But this one, I think, is a little more interesting because of the, presence of some of the non-traditional, by which, of course, I just mean non-forward candidates here. And we talked about one, you and I had a little back and forth on Twitter about Zach Werenski last week. You could certainly bring Quinn Hughes into that same conversation. Connor Hellebuk, at the risk of being hyperbolic, is this like a kind of now or never litmus test for if we're ever going to see a non-forward witness thing? I think so. I mean, I think we there with that debate a couple years ago.

It was Shestirkin, Austin Matthews, and Conner, David. And Shus Erdogan didn't even make it to some of the ballots. I voted for him first. I will say that. I voted for him first as well. Yeah. I think that was my first year voting and I did too. And then last year we had a great, you know, race, but it was for forwards. It's boring. Like we need more positions. And it just feels like we are bad enough measuring, I don't know, 70 assists versus 60 goals and things like that. And we're bad at measuring like forward defense, let alone saying, okay, here's a different position. Here's apples to oranges. And now let's throw goal tenders into the mix. I feel like this should be the year for a million reasons why it grinds my gears to no end. And I hate the argument of like,

no, but defenseman and goalies have their other awards. And it's like, cool, how many awards do forwards have? Yeah, there's already the Selke. There's already the Art Ross, which almost always is a forward. Like it's, that to me is a silly argument. It's, I mean, and we've seen it in baseball. Like pitchers win MVP's. It takes an extraordinary season, but it happens. And I would argue that pitchers are far different than a lot of MVP candidates, far more different. than a defenseman is from a forward, you know? There's also a Ted Lindsay award, right? I mean, we don't vote on that one.

The players do, but guess what? We don't vote on the Vezina either. So it's not that different. And also that is generally all forwards to the Ted Lindsay. So it's like, should we be, it's like, I don't want it that we overcorrect because we know other people will get it wrong. But it's also like, if not now, when, right? Because you can go through the candidates for this year.

And you're seeing a lot of like Nathan McKinnon hype. And I get that because he's incredible. but to me, like, he's not even leading this race. Like, if you're talking forwards, I would probably say Leon Dreisidal, now that Croke free stuff, to play the full year, and then you look at the rest of the positions,

the Jets are very good defensively this year. I'll give them that. But what Connor Hellen-Box is doing is incredible. Zach Wrenski is the engine of the blue jackets. And it really does depend on how you view the award. Is it the most valuable to their team? Is it the best player in the league? Well, he's one of the best defensemen in the league,

and he's definitely the most valuable to his team. And then like you mentioned before, Quinn Hughes, the differences from when he's on the ice or on the bench or playing to not in at all, that Canucks team is potentially playoff caliber to a bottom feeder without. I was texting with Max a little bit on the side about this earlier because I do get a little frustrated and I've actually said this on the athletic hockey show before. I don't think when we measure value, it does not necessarily have to be value that takes a bubble to. team to a playoff spot or a bottom feet or to a bubble team. You can contribute value, more value, potentially. It depends on how good of a season you've had if you're taking a good team to a great team or a playoff team into a Stanley Cup contender. So I hear the argument of, and I'm not saying this as if I'm opposed to voting for Werenski or anything, but I look at

like Hellebuck, for example, the Jets are still a playoff team if they have an average goaltender. He's elevated them to one of the two best teams record-wise in the league this year. And to me that when we look at value, it doesn't have to be just like, oh, this team would be a bottom feeder if Quinn Gives wasn't there. No, I agree with that, though, completely. I totally agree with that. But do you think for the guys that you're saying, okay, so if the Canucks don't make the playoffs, does I take Quinn use out of her? If the Blue Jacket just missed, does it take Zacharancy out of it? I don't think so.

And I think of like the Taylor Hall debates, but like, where do you both stand on that? Yeah, to me, it shouldn't. I mean, I think naturally, like, it's a huge feather in either of their caps if they do make the playoffs. And I understand narrative-wise, why that factors in. But the fact that, like, the blue jackets are so much better because Zach Wrenski is there, whether that's taking them from a bottom feeder to a bubble team or a good team to a great team or whatever distinctions within that. Like, Zach Wrenski's had an awesome year and should be considered no matter whether or not the blue jackets make the playoffs. I do tend to wait whether a team made the playoffs and whether I, you know, how seriously I consider their, their players for mostly the heart.

I don't do it quite so much on like the Norris or the Selke, but I do kind of think I want my league MVP to be on a playoff team, especially in a league where half the teams make the playoffs, although more and more teams are inching that direction anyway. But I just feel like if you're not one of the, able to be on one of the top, elevate your team to one of the top 16 or one of the top eight in your conference. It's hard for me to call you the league MVP. that being said, I get what you're saying. And it's possible that that's a little bit of a, I don't know, damaging heuristic to kind of go off of because there are certainly players. No, because like think about it. If you're like you think of like Jack Eiffel years in Buffalo or Connor McDavid in those early

years in Edmonton and you're not elevating that team out of the basement, you're not doing it now, right? And it's not your fault. The team around you sucks. But like, you know, push comes to shove. I feel like you have to be in the picture, even if you just make, like, miss out. Yeah. And Columbus would qualify for that. I mean, I think about what Werensky has meant to that team. Nobody in the NHL other than goaltenders plays more minutes than Zach Wrenski. He plays 27 minutes a night. That's a crazy number, right? Like, Kail McCar is the next closest. He's almost a minute and a half per game behind him. That obviously helps you. You're on the ice more. You're going to put up more numbers. But I just think about what the pressure of that is and how much he goes into every game knowing like, man, they're going to ask so much of me. And he's lived up to every bit of it. He's the career year, his numbers aren't even that far behind a guy like McCar who plays with a Nathan

McKinnon on a team that has, I think, a lot more high octane on it than the Columbus Blue Jackets do. So that's where, like, I find myself really drawn to Werenski's case, especially if they make the playoffs, but even just getting them to where they're at, what they've been through, what he's meant to that team, man, I think that's as good a case as I've seen from a non-forward in a long time. And I say that as someone who voted for Shasturkin first in that year, because I thought that year was incredible doing what Peter said, elevating a team that was probably on the fringe, or maybe they were a playoff team, but he elevated them into a contender based on how good he was. I think Werenski's elevated the Columbus Blue Jackets by at least that much, whether it

ends up in the playoffs or not. I will say if I vote for a defenseman, if I have a defenseman on my Hart Trophy ballot, it will be, or maybe I'll have two, it will be in the order that they appear on my Norris ballot. I understand the argument of the awards definitions being a little bit different. But to me, again, I measure value looking less at whether you elevated a team to the playoffs or whatnot and more just like were you the best player, the most valuable player. And I kind of evaluate the North the same way in terms of valuable defensemen. So I haven't really kind of taken my full dive into Werenski versus McCar versus Quinn Hughes. But if one of them or multiple of them appear on my ballot, as I would guess would be the case,

it will be in the same order that I have on the Norse ballot. So you don't put a little extra weight, though. Like you consider what the drama in Vancouver has been and everything that they've had to go through off the ice. What Columbus has had to go through off the ice in that adversity. You don't weigh that a little differently against just like, you know, McCar on the ice very well might be the best defenseman in the NHL again this year. But I do, when I think about the heart, I do think about the other stuff. I do think what Quinn Hughes has had to shepherd Vancouver through,

what Zach Werensky's had to shepherd Columbus through, changes the confidence. conversation at least a little bit. Yeah, I suppose so, but like, and this is not, I'm not going to equate anything to Columbus is what they, of course, or whatever. But like, I mean, you look at even McCar, I realize he's had McKinnon the whole time, but like that whole team has changed this year. Like that roster has undergone a pretty crazy transformation. And so he's kind of been, he and McKinnon have shepherded them through that.

And that's not to say that's the same as like Quinn Hughes, Shepard in Vancouver through the J.T. Miller, Elias Pedersen drama or anything like that. But it's, it isn't nothing. And to me, I just look at the award is like for the most valuable player. And to me, I look at that as on ice who elevates their team the most. And I think it's, it's tough. We have this whole, this whole kind of conversation about is this the year for a non-forward?

But then I look at what. dry sidle's doing and I find it hard to kind of when I was doing some pre uh podcast research I was like holy cow this guy's numbers are insane he does play with McDavid a decent bit or he has but a lot of his his production is away from McDavid he's going to have he's averaging more than an even strength point per game this year so it's not just like he's getting it all of his on the power play and he's already nearing 50 goals so it's it's kind of a funny uh we talk about all of this and yet I still think it's possible that I go forward when it's all set and done. That's fair.

Like, Dry Settle is an all three zone player. Like, he's been unreal this year. So, like, he's up there. Like, I will be very surprised my ballot doesn't include him, Wrenzki and Hellabuck. And there's still time and we'll see what happens. But, like, speaking to how you were with, like, the Norris versus your heart ballot, like, I am the complete opposite of that. Like, I know that when I see, like, best all around defensemen, there have been years,

Eric Carlson being in it, right? Like, I know he won it. To me, he was the team MVP, which was different than the best all around defenseman because his defense was still suspect. And even like, I think the year before it, it was Roman Yosey was getting a lot of hype. And I'm like, he should be on heart trophy ballots.

And he wasn't. And then sometimes I don't understand how guys can be number one on someone's Norris ballot and then not even be a thought, like top five on the heart trophy ballot. Because those players, like when it was Yosie and when it was Carlson, they were literally driving their team. Like, I think Warneski fits both boxes because he's legitimately good on both ends of the ice and the driver of his team.

But the other guy is, like, they had some suspect minutes or, you know, I think OSC barely killed penalties this year, which I feel like you have to do is the best all-round defensemen. But like, then I get into the nitty gritty of it. But I just find it so odd sometimes how some top Norris guys don't get enough hard votes. I don't make it a rule for myself that they have to appear in the same order. If there's a defenseman, if they're, you know, my all-star, ballot, maybe a different order on my heart ballot.

If there's three centers at the top, I could have those same three centers on my all-star ballot at a different order. And that doesn't bother me personally. Yeah, I don't begrudge anyone for doing that. And I'm not even going to say, look, like a year, two years from now, like, I feel like my thought process on awards evolves every year. But right now, the way I feel is like, we're maybe getting a little too cute with some of this and you should just vote for best players, is my.

perspective. But that's not what they say. They tell us what they want us to vote. I know. I agree. The most valuable player. And the most valuable player value equals best in my mind. I don't, I don't agree with that. I do not think that the player who is the most valuable to his team is the same as the best player. It's one of my few hurdles. I'm with you on that, Max. Like, I'm, because it's so close. And I feel like,

like, let's get into like the little cliches, but like, it's a game of inches, but it's like, it really is. So then it's like, when the players are all at the top, I feel like I have to go through the nitty gritty of it. But I do think what you said, Peter, like your votes, how you do it every year evolves is the key of it all, because first of all, we are getting better at, I hope at least we're trying, to get better at defining defense, which we were complete at for the longest time. And we're getting better with that. And to look at goaltending a different way, if every voter could have that attitude and evolve

their thinking and not be like, all right, best defenseman, let's go blocks and average time on ice and call it a day and some points in there, like, then we could like move on to keep having the conversations like we are now about now. Now let's get into the nitty gritty of what value means, value versus best. Yeah. We're already talking about the best players in the league,

right? Like, I think we can all agree that everyone we've talked about is one of the best players in the league, right? So it's not like we're, we're going to elevate somebody here and say, oh, well, you know,

Nashville struggled and where would they have been without, you know, Roman Yose this year? We're not talking about that. We're already talking about a small pool. of the very best players in the league here. And that's where the value thing comes into me is that's how I differentiate between that group of incredible, incredible players.

Sorry, I cut you off, Peter. No, I think that's a great point because I do think some of this is when you get to the end of the season, some of these guys are so close and you have to figure out a way to break a tie. And then you can, in my mind, look to some of those external factors and things that factor in. I just am saying like I would have a tough time. Say I go Hughes or say I go McCar, Werenski Hughes on my Norris ballot, it would be hard for me to have Werenski on a heart ballot without McCar being in front of him, for example.

And that's just like where I am right now. I could think about this and in two weeks be in a different spot when we're getting closer. But that's currently how I feel. To go back to something, Shana said, I've often wondered if I should just make my heart ballot. But my Norris winner, my Selke winner, right, whoever I put first on the goalie All-Star team, because I don't vote for Vezina, and then, you know, whatever the two best forwards are.

The thing that usually keeps me from doing that, because I do think if you have the best defenseman in the league, that has to be one of the most valuable players. If you have the best goalies in the league, that has to be one of the most valuable players in the league. If you have the best two-way forward, that has to be one of the, you know, most valuable players in the league. The only thing that keeps me from it is knowing that if I do that, I might leave off a guy who's, like, in serious contention as a whole. forward from winning and throw off the whole voting just because I, to Peter's point,

got too cute or something like that. Yeah. And then there are some years where last year, for example, I think it would have been kind of ridiculous not to have four forwards as your top four people on the ballot. I mean, McKinnon, Kutrov, McDavid and Matthews were, I felt so far ahead of the pack that it just would have felt silly. But I do agree that typically, and I'm probably guilty of this too. I don't know if I've, I'm trying to think back, but I don't know if I've had a defenseman on my heart ballot before. I know I have had, I had, I voted Shostirkin number one the year he won, but I'm kind of, I'm curious. I need to go back and look, but I'm not sure I've had a defenseman on my heart ballot. And that will change this year.

I'm almost certain. I know I did for Yose. Was it last year? Was it the year before? Who's to say? I could not tell you. really valuable to them last year for sure. Yeah. That would be, yeah, very valid. Yeah. It's like a five spotter. You know, I wasn't giving him like crime real estate. I'm trying to remember maybe two years ago, was it him? Was it him? But I think it was last year I had him there because like he's sick. He's doing everything and more that entire turnaround. Like he was a big part of it. So and again, he wasn't, did I have him on my Norris vote as well. I did. I definitely did last year. So it made sense like that overlap a little bit. But when it comes to,

to like different positions and stuff too with with um with goalies it's hard because you look at the best goalie in the world and sometimes it's like well how much do they play are they a one a like when it was lenus oldmark nobody was going to be voting him for the heart trophy and that's okay and i feel like that has to be a consideration too like kind of hell about because out here playing 70 80 percent of the jets games for literally no reason they just want to run him to the ground and then wonder why can't he do it in the postseason i i honestly have no idea but you look at how much like those guys play too and then that argument comes up and it's like, well, if a forwards time on ice matters and a defenseman's does, doesn't how much a goal he plays in the season matter? Or like how many times they're playing,

especially down the stretch and when the playoff race heats up or did they play so on the beginning that they solidified their team's playoff spot? Yeah, I think Hullabuck, to me, is the amount he plays is a huge factor into why. I mean, you look at, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I would imagine that Logan Thompson and Charlie Linger and have a bit more of an easy. even split in games played, whereas Hellebuck just feels like he's playing all the time. Like Logan Thompson has played 39 games this year. Hella Bucks played 53. And if you ask, the one thing that I'm really going to torture myself over when it comes

to Hellebuck is just how much is the Jets being a good defensive team playing into all of this? Because I know his like goals saved above expected are really good. But like their backups numbers are excellent too, which to me does. speak to the fact that they don't allow a lot of super dangerous chances. Hallibuck's going to win the Norris this year, or the Besna this year, more than deserving. I'm just still figuring out, like, how high to have him on the heart ballot. Because to me, it's a little harder than when Shostarkin in 2022, I felt like was the only reason

the Rangers were a decent team. Oh, yeah. So far ahead of all the other goalies in the league that year that I had him number one. Yeah. And I think in the beginning of the season, that was kind of a thing for Helibuck, because I think I think in the beginning of the year, they kind of rode the wave a little bit, the Jets, and they had that amazing streak, but you could see things starting to crumble below the surface, and he kept them in games. It was like that in their power play. But like the second half of the season, they've been really, really good defensively.

So it's totally different from years past. And then that's the other thing. Like, obviously we're all super inherently biased. It's like totally normal. We all are. And we think about the years that he's had to be the game breaker for the Jets versus their defense is there and he has more support. And we have to like filter that out and be like, no, it's just this year alone.

But like even when you look at his workload, it's like, how is he responding to it? Well, he's responding to it with flying colors. But I hope this year doesn't start conversations then of like, well, he's the regular season MVP, but what is you in the postseason? Like, no, no, that is separate. Sorry, I don't care about that. I'm with you completely.

Shana, one thing Peter and I were texting about earlier is we were talking about old ballots and stuff like that. And this was one before either of us, but I think it was before you were a voter two. But the Taylor Hall, Nathan McKinnon, year. That was way before me. Yeah. So I look back at that.

I wasn't a voter in it. And that's the one thing that gives me a little bit of pause is, you know, I wasn't a voter that I can't say what went into everyone's head on that. When I look back, I go, that looks like one that maybe the narrative took over and swung an award in a direction that close to 10 years later, not even 10 years later. I look back and I go, ooh, I don't know about that. And I do worry, I catch myself thinking, like, am I going to look back if I vote someone over the undrysidal and he scores 65 goals? and I've got a defenseman on my ballot at number one. Am I going to look back on that with regret? I don't know how fair that is,

especially talking about a race in Hall-McKinnon that I didn't even vote in, but that's in the back of my mind a little bit. I try to really avoid the narrative-based thinking. At least it's hard too fully, but I remember thinking that a lot the year Eric Carlson won the Norris most recently, where I thought a lot of the narrative was he was the first defenseman in however many years to get to 100. points and I kind of had to resist that and I think I did not vote him number one on my

north bout because of what Shane has said earlier, which is I did and regret it. Like just another case in point. Like I voted it because everyone was like, he had 100 points. How could you know? I was, you know, whenever I'm feeling on my ballot, I call like league sources and I'm like, hey, what do you think about this? Like I wanted to reflect as much as it's my ballot. I wanted to reflect what, you know, the league thinks to a little bit, not not the

NHL in terms of the commissioner and all that, but just people. people in the sport. And I felt like the consensus I was getting was everyone felt like you got to go Carlson. And I did it. And I didn't even take a year until I was like, I don't even believe that. Why did I vote that? And so I really have to go against it. Yes. No, it's hard. You know, for me, it's different because I feel like I've become a professional ballot checker because like I care about ballots and awards and I write a lot about it. And I haven't voted for that long. So like before I started voting, I would get asked like, hey, can I get a vibe check if this is okay, especially since they've become public.

Like nobody wants to get dunked on and I get that. But I look at them, you know, sometimes I'll see something I disagree with. And it might make me rethink it like, okay, if you're thinking this, okay, let me like go through both arguments in my head. But sometimes it's something that makes me like firm my grasp on it too. And I remember Carlson like somebody's funny scoring this. And I'd be like, now I'm tearing apart Eric Carlson. I don't want to be. But I feel like I have to, even though he's, you know, three on my ballot, because what he's doing is still amazing.

but for the award and how it should be measured. And please, let's talk about defense. You know, it like helps as a vibe check. But I'm sure there's going to be ones. We're going to look back on it a few years and be like, what we're thinking on this, this one is completely like off the rails. But also, I think the way some of the voting is changing and evolving and how we're thinking about things too.

It's like you look back on the years that now it's Camelcar winning and Adam Fox winning the Norris instead of the years where we looked at and was like, great, they gave Drew Dowdy the award two years late because they owe. to him one or P.K. Subang got a theory he didn't deserve it because of this. If we're getting away from that, then I feel like we're at least pushing somewhat in the right direction that we'll be able to look at him and be like, oh yeah, well, we're trying to facilitate the change of talking about more than just forwards because more than just forwards playing this league. Who knew?

Fight the narratives. Fight the narratives. Fight the narratives that are trying to corrupt your brain. So less the listeners think that this whole episode is because we are trying to get everyone to go with the narrative for a non-forward. I want, Shana, I want you to give me the best case for drysidal.

And Peter, I know you said if it's a forward you're probably going to go dry saddle, but I do since you know Nathan McKinnon so well,

I want you to make a case for McKinnon here right after Shana gets the drysidal one. Okay. Leon Drysidle is doing everything and more and he's playing with literally no one. Yes, he plays with Connemick David sometimes

at five on five, especially like a third period adjustment or they got to get him back on track. But you look at who he's also played with. He's playing with guys like the silly pot Colson and Arvittson and Corey Perry And a lot of guys who are not doing it. He is doing everything and more.

If you go through the amount, he touches the pup from back in his own zone. He's like a breakout machine and a puck retrieval machine from the defensive end that you don't expect him to be. He's an elite forechecker. He's an elite passer. And oh, he's the best goal score in the world right now. So you put it all together and you can see how much he's driving the Oilers to be good when they are not that good this year. They are not nearly as good as they could be. And I feel like if they do anything this spring, it's going to be him and McPherson.

David, but I think this year it's been him just driving the bus. And now the McKinnon case, Shana did a masterful job with the dry sidel case. McKinnon is simply just an unbelievable hockey player and a joy to watch. And I think one of the things with him is how much he plays. If you look at the forwards in the league, he leads forwards in time on ice per game. He's at 2252. The next closest is Karel Kaprizov, who's only played 37 games, not his fault. but he's at 22, 25.

And so the fact of the matter is that McKinnon is playing way more than just about any forward in this league. His production is similar to what it was in his MVP year. It'll probably be, it'll be a little lower, but he's already over 100 points. He leaves the league with 103. And I think the avalanche right now, people look at them as this juggernaut because they are after the deadline. But I would encourage them to go back and look at some of the lineups they were rolling out in December, November, like before they kind of turned it around

and made some of these changes. McKinnon was really keeping them afloat. Him and McCar. And I think like Dreisd, one of the things that is going to probably hurt his candidacy is that he plays with another superstar and spends a lot of time on the ice with another superstar. That's going to probably hurt McCar and some of the Norris conversations.

I think there's both fairness and unfairness to that, but that's a different conversation. But simply he's an amazing hockey player, plays more than anyone and leads the league in production. And that would be my case if I were to make it for Mr. Nathan Raymond McKinnon. Both remarkably complete players too, right? Like they're leading the league in points.

Those are not empty points. Those are dominant, full ice players and certainly both very deserving candidates for the hard trophy. We'll see how well shakes out. We're going to take a quick break right there. When we get back, we're going to talk about some of the X factors and the wild card races down the stretch. All right, we're back.

And I wanted to get into the wild card race a little. little bit. I know we've hit it really hard. So I want to take a little bit different angle on this. Starting in the Eastern Conference, and I just want to get an X-factor player on each of these teams. It's gotten so crowded. Let's take Ottawa out of this. I think they've separated themselves a little bit. But I want to start Peter with Montreal, a team that has really shot up these standings, really, and is holding down the last wildcard spot in the East as we speak right now. If you had to pick one player or a thing to be the X-factor for the Canadians as to whether they get this done or not and get into the playoffs, what would it be?

Well, there's a lot of options because they're kind of an interesting team with all these young guys mixed with a few veterans. But I'm going to say, I know this might be a basic answer, but I'm going to say Lane Hudson. I mean, you're looking at a rookie who has 53 points in 67 games. This is by far the longest hockey season he's played. How is he going to hold up down the stretch? Can he kind of continue this production? I would guess yes. I've been extremely impressed by him.

I know he's much more an offensive darling than a defensive one, but I think that when I look at the Montreal Canadians, I think he's kind of going to be one of the big reasons that they can kind of emerge as a wildcard team if they're able to do it. I fully agree. And here's something fascinating about Hudson that I didn't realize until I was doing show prep today. Hudson's expected goals against over the last month has been way better,

like way improved. If you're talking about since February 18th, 2.16, expect the goals against per 60. We're talking about almost a full goal against per 60, expect a goal against per 60 improvement from where he was prior to that. That's massive. If you had reservations on Lane Hudson, it was, yeah, he's driving a ton of offense,

but he gives a lot of it back. And that was true for a lot of the season. Over the last month, it has not been. If that keeps up, they will get into the playoffs, I think. Yeah, I'm going to fully agree with that one. Shana, do you want to hit Columbus? Yeah. Zach Warnskiy is their ex-fax.

because he's sick and amazing and the best defenseman in the league this year and MVP caliber. And it's something I'm really excited actually to dive into this soon about like his MVP case, but you just see it like their offense is like up and coming this year. And I think some at some points this season it's been, well, the shooting percentage is really high, but the expected goal generation isn't quite matching up to it. But then you see the plays that they're, you know, creating these quality looks on and they're so good. And it starts, it's like an all three zone effort. it starts with something amazing Wrenski does,

and I feel like these up and coming forwards are joining him to, like, create amazing plays like Fantili and Vrancoff, and obviously Monaghan, when he comes back, is going to be a difference maker. But I feel like it just all starts with Werenstki. I actually am going to piggyback on that. Monaghan was my guy. It's not, not when I'm saying X Fetter, I'm not saying the best player. Wrenski is the best player in the team.

But Monaghan, to me, is vital. He was so good this year before he got hurt. I think he was a point per game guy. an excellent player. And I think that if they're within striking distance, when he comes back, that could be a huge boost to them down the stretch. Because this forward group, like you said, it's got a lot of young up-and-comers. He's kind of the established guy that was really firing on all cylinders this year.

And it's a shame that he got hurt because he was excellent. And I think they'd probably be in a much better spot in the wild card race if he hadn't gotten hurt. I'll go to Detroit here, obviously. And I'll say it's their top line as a whole. That line has two of their most important players, Dylan Arkin and Lucas Raymond. I don't think they've been the same since the Four Nations break. Larkin has still scored. He's found some goals, and especially at five on five, which is key that this is not a team that scores well, five on five.

But that line hasn't looked right to me for really close to a month now. And I don't think there's any way they can get it. They're already looking at an uphill battle. I don't think there's any way they can get it unless that line really ramps it up. Raymond was so good down the stretch for him last year. If they can find it, they'll give themselves a chance. but that line hasn't been where I think it needs to be. And I think that's why you're seeing the Red Wing start to slide a little bit here.

Peter, do you want to go to the Rangers? Sure. I would say Alexei Lafranier for the Rangers. I mean, the Rangers have a whole litany of reasons that this season has gone off the rails. But in terms of just production from last year to this one, I think Lafranier is arguably the most disappointing player on the team just because he really looked like he took a huge step last season. and he was amazing in the playoffs.

He starts off this year strong and then has really fallen off. And I think if you're looking at, if we're in a few weeks saying, oh, the Rangers are in the playoffs, I think a big reason why is going to be because Alexei Lafranier kind of turned it on and was someone who they could count on for production down the stretch. There's a lot of guys on the Rangers that have to turn it on. It's not just Alexei Lafranier, but I think that he's one name to watch kind of down the stretch

if this team sees an uptick and its position in the standings. it's going to be because he's playing well. And if they don't make the playoffs, it's probably going to be because he, like he has a lot of the season. And then, Chana, let's go to you for the Islanders.

We'll make this the last team in the East at the risk of upsetting the Bruins fans. I'll set the cutoff line as being above 500 as we're recording this, which I think is fair. So we'll make the Islanders the last team we do in the East race here. Yeah, I'm going to go with Noah Dobbson because I feel like without Barzell, who is far and away the best player this year, they need to create offense.

They need it on the power play. They need it at five on five. Their special teams have been a total disaster. But if he can come in and play really well now that he's healthy, I think that he has the potential to be a game changer for them. And not just for this postseason and potentially the playoff race and all of that. It's just in the long run showing like, no, no, he's still got it in him. And I feel like he's been really good since he's been back.

I think he's been great over this last stretch. He takes a lot of heat for some sort of reason. But I think, you know, that slower start is starting to like fade away. And then he's showing this is a consistency and level. that he has. So I think it's good for them now, and I think it's good for them in the long run knowing like, okay, wait, he can still be that number one they need. I will go out west and we'll start with Calgary, Peter. Is it Dustin Wolf?

Hey, Dustin Wolf's the cheap answer. I'm going to go with, this is a bit of a kind of lesser one, but I was so impressed last night watching Matthew Coronado when the flames just absolutely destroyed the Rangers. I know the score is only two to one, but it was more than a two to one game. Matthew Coronado looked really good. His underlying numbers are really good. And I think if you look at the flames, you kind of have a lot of these veterans, but you know to an extent what you're getting out of the cadres, the Hubertos, the Uyghurs, the Uyghurs, those are in terms of their skater group. A lot of the guys that have kind of kept this team in the mix. I think that where they can maybe make another little jump is if some of these

younger guys continue to play the way they have. Coronado is a guy I look at. Just if he can kind of continue to have as strong a season as he's had, maybe even find a little bit more. He's only 22, former first round pick. Like, I like him a lot as a player. And I'm curious kind of down the stretch how he looks. Vancouver, is it too easy, Shane, for me to just say, Elias Pedersen. I mean, he's been the story there all year.

There's a lot of going to be eyes on him for a lot of reasons down the stretch. But, you know, as a difference maker, you do need him to be one of your best players at this time of year, especially what they're paying him. Yeah, because, like, I think the easy X factor is. there is going to be like Quinn Hughes. A healthy Quinn Hughes can take over games even when Pedersen isn't at his best. But since we know Quinn Hughes is dealing with some things and is not as healthy as he could be like you need everybody else to step up there. They didn't too much at the deadline at all. It's such a disappointing one for them. So I feel like they have to figure out a way

to like pick up the pace offensively. And the games you're seeing Pedersen engaged in. You're going, oh my God, this team looks like they have like the Jews to be a playoff team. Games he isn't. It's a little bit tough. And when you have other guys taking steps back like Brock Besser this year, I feel like that's been getting a lot of attention. If Pedersen can be really good and like elevate guys like Holglander and and Garland some more, like now it takes the pressure off him too. All right. Let's go to St. Louis's favorite son, Peter Baugh, to tell us the blues X Factor. The Paris of the Midwest. I, I would say Dylan Holloway. He's been unbelievable lately. He's on an absolute tear. Shana mentioned earlier that.

the Oilers have not been as good this year as last year and they're a lot less deep. A lot of that is because they did not bring back Dylan Holloway and Philip Robberg. Holloway in his last 12 games has 14 points, six goals. He's been excellent for St. Louis, everything they could have hoped for, 22 goals on the year. And I think if they make the playoffs, he's going to be a big part of it. My gut for Utah is it has to start with their two young stars, Logan Cooley and Dylan Gunther, both of whom are having great years.

Gunther especially just wowes me every time I watch him. Where are you at on Utah, Shana? I'm going to a different direction. And I let me add, I am disappointed in this team. This was my surprise playoff team from day one of the season. They let me down. But they didn't have to acquire a center at the deadline. And it's because Barrett Hayton has finally come into his own.

So I think the fact that we know Gunther's a rising star, we know Clayton Killar's a difference maker and Logan Cooley's been progressing. Like those are all fundamentals to this team. but the fact that Barrett Heaton has finally hit his stride. He's producing a ton. He can drive play on that second line. I'm like, if you can keep doing that, I would feel a lot better about their chances.

Do you know where Clayton Keller's from, by the way, Shana? You know, I have no idea. St. Louis, Missouri. Who knew? A man from his own power is like. Whenever Peter asked that question, the answer is St. Louis. Let's take a quick break right there.

We'll be right back with Ryan McDonough of the Tampa Bay Lightning next on the Athletic Hockey Show. Welcome back to the episode. athletic hockey show, Shana, Peter, and Max with you. joined now by Ryan McDonough, the Tampa Bay Lightning, two-time Stanley Cup champion, former Ranger and Predator, taking part in AstraZeneca's Get Body Checked Against Cancer, Public Health Campaign.

Hey, Ryan, thanks for joining us. Thank you guys. Thanks for having me on here. Peter, why don't you get us started here? Yeah, I guess to start, Ryan, let's start with a little bit of hockey. Obviously, you were in Nashville for a couple seasons, but we're in Tampa for a long time before that.

you won a couple Stanley Cups there. Just what's it kind of been like being back there this year? It's been unbelievable. Honestly, probably better than I thought, you know, with kind of returning and resituating the family and whatnot. And the kids are doing great, loving their school. My oldest had some, you know, small memories of our school beforehand, but was excited to see some of our friends again and living in the same area, close to guys, just familiar

with the commute and obviously the rank. practice rank and everything that goes along with the facilities there. And it just allowed me to be really comfortable and confident going to the rank and being able to just focus on my game and help the team as much as possible. What was that re-transition back in? Obviously, the way it ended the first time a little strange. When you come back in on day one, day two, does it feel like nothing ever happened? Or how did you kind of bridge that?

Yeah, a lot of the same staff, almost the same coaching staff. staff, almost the same trainers, equipment guys were the same. So a lot of familiarity, like I talked about, and, you know, locker room was the same. So like I said, it felt like I really had never left. And so the guys obviously were excited. Staff was excited to have me again. And the people around the ring were all jacked up to and whatnot. So it just made the return all that much more smoother, that much more excitement around it.

Like I talked about it, it didn't really. feel like a move per se, like if I went to Tampa the first time or Nashville, where you don't really know where to live or where the kids are going to go to school. So that's kind of added stress when you get traded to a city that you never lived in before. Obviously, this time, I didn't have to stress about that. We knew where we wanted to live and all the stuff with the family was taking care of pretty quick. And just showing up for work at the rink was the easy part. So how different are the lightning systematically from when you left? And how does being familiar with, you know, John Cooper, the coaching staff and Chernak, help ease that for you.

Pretty similar systems-wise, a little different penalty kill maybe, which I've spent a lot of time there, but certainly helps having churnack around like before. Our chemistry is really strong. We take a lot of pride and being tough to play against defensively, first and foremost, and that fits my game well. And, you know, five-on-five, it's pretty similar. we obviously want to play with a lot of pace and, you know, distribute the puck to our forwards and the skill guys that we have up there. So like I said, it's been pretty similar. And, you know, the coaching staff does a great job of, you know,

asking about certain things that we did in Nashville. Can help us in any way and different systems along the way. But they've got a pretty good grip of what makes our group have the best chance to win each and every night. You're no longer the only one who kind of was away from. Tampa and came back at the deadline. You guys added Yanni Gord, along with Oliver Bjorkstrand. Just what was kind of the excitement level getting Yanni Gord back into the room and kind of reuniting the championship team from 20 and 21. Yeah, really huge, really exciting. He's been his normal self, again, like he's never left and he was gone for a little bit longer than myself.

You know, he's playing that high-paced game, which we need up front that relentless is for a checking game and just a pest for the opponent each and every night. And you know you're going to get 110% effort, all the passion in the world that you need and want. And it just brings a lot of great energy to our room and obviously veteran experience from winning before, which can only help us here down the stretch. Ryan, watching the Four Nations tournament, one of the guys that stood out to me all tournament was Jake Gensel. And he's a guy who I know you played against for a number of years. But I'm sure being around him every day and playing with him, you pick up a few new things or new appreciations for his game.

Like, what stood out to you now that you've been his teammate for a little while? I mean, just as, you know, his craftiness around the net, you know, kind of his hands, the way he scores some goals, the way he sets up guys, just has a great hockey sense on him, knowing where the open guy is. You know, I think he'd be the first to tell you. He's not the biggest and fastest guy, but he certainly thinks the game at a high level. sees play is happening before they happen and has that like I said that knack around the net to put the puck in there and do some damage so it's been fun to see him you know take his game to

another level I think even from before playing against him and four nations was a was a great tournament for him there too on the international level and I think the guys really loved having him here his his experience shows in games big games he's been clutch and we're going to keep needing him year, no doubt. So before we had you on, we were talking a lot about awards and how, you know, things have evolved over the years, especially when it comes to measuring defense. It feels like we're all pretty terrible at it still. You've made a great career out of playing match of minutes.

Like, how do you think shutdown defense has evolved in today's game? It's even more of a skating game than I can even remember first coming into the league. You know, you needed size and physicality. you know, you wanted to slow guys down by being physical. But the speed of the game is so fast that you've got to be able to skate with guys. You can't get away with, you know, step in front of guys, obviously with the clutching and holding and making it hard on guys physically. You want to try to do that for sure, but these guys are so good at avoiding, you know, hits and being aware of where guys are on the ice. You literally just try to stay within a stick length of these guys half the time as best you can to take away any kind of free open ice that they.

have, but certainly, you know, it's a skill game. You're not going to be perfect out there. They're going to make you look silly at times, but you rely on, you know, your skating ability first and foremost as a defenseman, no doubt. So how do you adjust your game and your strategy when you go from playing with someone like Roman Yossi, who's obviously known for being a game breaker offensively, to someone a little bit more defensive in Eric Ternick? Yeah, you know, you kind of build chemistry with Yos.

You know different moments where he's going to kind of take off and anticipate, you know, joining the playoff defensively where you probably won't have a D-to-D option at some points. You know, we played a lot different system in the D zone there where it was a lot more North game and throwing a puck to an area as opposed to making one or two passes in your zone before getting out. So when we were really clicking there, you know, it seemed like a lot of times you'd be. be one guy back and three, four guys up, you know, 10, 20 yards in front of you, ready to, you know, chase down the puck. And certainly his anticipation is high up there as far as knowing when the puck's

going to be in a certain area. And so you just try to, you know, make the game easy for him as far as put into an area, letting him join offensively, hanging back there and just being a good communicator for him. And, you know, Churning, like I talked about, plays a lot more physical, a little bit more stay at home, but certainly has a skating ability, you know, to join and make things happen too. But I think just with yo, you want the puck in his hands as much as possible. And his skating ability joining the ice offensively is up there with the best in the league. So you try to put him in those positions as much as you can. Shana mentioned we were doing a little bit

of awards talk earlier. I'm curious as a player, like, how do you feel the MVP should be kind decided, you know, sometimes it feels like we're voting on who that the best season. Other times, you know, I try to vote by the guy who I think has the most value to his team, which is how they write it. But do you have an opinion on that as a player and how you'd like to see that kind of awarded? I think you certainly want to award, you know, high quality seasons.

And you can't take, you don't want to take anything away from, you know, the best players having consistently good seasons and you're just expecting it. But at the same time, you know, there's, to be ups and downs. There's going to be injuries for certain guys and guys are going to take off certain seasons and you want them to be awarded for that and keep, keep guys, you know, pushing to be their best and not just, you know, give it to the, every team probably has, you know, most valuable player, you ask anybody on the team that you probably pick between one, maybe two guys, right, on a team each, each nights. And so no question those guys most likely going to be in the debate at

the end of the year anyways with good seasons. But, you certainly want to reward guys that are having, you know, great years or doing a little bit different, playing a different style, playing a different way to help have success too. I guess put another way, like I look at a guy like Zach Werensky and what he's meant to Columbus, right? Like, it's hard to compare him against Leon Dricetto. They're such different players. But I'm not asking you to cast a ballot here. But you get what I mean? Like, is there something to be said for what Werenski's meant to Columbus in that conversation? No, I know 100%. And then you look at dry saddle. He's leading the league and goals too.

You know, so it's like you're rewarding him for having a great season. And certainly, Orenski. I mean, he never gets off the ice. And if he has any kind of an off night, it just kills their chances of winning each night. He's so important to their team. So, yeah, two players that are, you know, like you said, in the running for sure for MVP. So it feels like this is the year finally, hopefully. we will actually get defensemen and goalies on the ballot for a change with Helen Buck and Werenski and Hews in the race.

Do you think that goalies and defensemen get enough hype in the Hart Trophy conversation? Do you think because they have their own awards, that's enough? It's a tough debate, no doubt. I mean, I've been very fortunate. I've played with a lot of great goaltenders in my career. Obviously, Henry Blenquist in New York, Vaseliski and Tampa, Saros, a couple years in Nashville. I mean, you can't ask for three better goalies to, you know, to play in front of for a majority of your career. career. So I've seen firsthand the work ethic that those goaltenders put in, preparation,

the competitiveness, I mean, the ups and downs that they have to deal with night in, night out. I think, you know, the goalies have won the MVP trophy before, but I think they should, you know, I think they should have their name in the running here. And defensemen, too, I mean, you talk about some, some of them are up there in the top 10, 15 and points in the league. And I think that speaks volumes too with the way the skill is in this league and how far it's advanced. You're able to play well defensively, but also produce, and it's hard enough to score goals in this league and produce. So the fact that D-Men are able to do that is pretty impressive to me.

So I think they should be in the running, and it's good to see them getting talked about a little bit more. Yeah, Ryan, with you specifically, I wanted to ask you're nearing the 1,000 game mark. I think you're five away. How much has that been on your mind? mind and what do you think the emotions will be when you get there coming up soon? Yeah, it's been on my mind a little bit. Obviously, you know, you're trying to prep and plan for a celebration with family and friends. So, you know, you're trying to plan, but also not talk

about it or think about it because you don't want to, you know, mess anything up that way. But, you know, now obviously that it's gotten closer here. We're down to stretch run. It's exciting. You know, you start checking in with family and friends, seeing if they're able to make it down for the game and a little celebration afterwards. you just start to think back on your career. It was even funny. You played Philly last night. Walking into the game with John Torrella was my first head coach way back 14 years ago.

You know, you just meet so many people over the years and so many teammates. And everybody kind of leaves a lasting impression on you. And that's what's great about the game. And when you reflect on it, that's what, you know, you'll think about the most over the thousand games as the great people and players and coaches that you've had. I think that's been setting in a little bit more here as we've gotten closer to the milestone game for myself. Do you have any favorite torch stories? Just some of the classic, you know, great meetings that have been captured and, you know, on the behind-the-scenes stuff. You know, he is what he is.

You've seen plenty of examples. I think it's just he's always true to himself. And, you know, he brings that torts energy night in, night out. and you kind of never know, never know what side of torch you're going to get. Even when you think you've got to figure it out, you won five nothing. And it's going to be a happy day at the rank. He'll throw a wrench at you and switch it up and come in with guns hot and be all over the team and whatnot. So I think it's just great that he has the passion still to this day,

even like I said, talking to him the other day, walking on the rank. He loves coming to the rink and coaching and you see the fire every night behind the bench. I think just that intensity to have the. that at a young age was huge for me to have that example as a head coach and what it takes to play for a long time and coach for a long time. You need that intensity and passion. Before you came on, we were debating lakes versus oceans. Peter and I are from the Midwest. Shane is from the East Coast. You're obviously a Minnesota kid, but you've been in New York, you've been in Tampa, lakes are oceans.

It's lakes all day for me. Yeah, knock on wood. There's no sharks. There's no sharks in lakes yet, at least. but yeah the Midwest lakes are the best it's it's awesome the fishing the boating the lake activities not that the ocean isn't isn't beautiful to look at each and every day down in Tampa and in New York as well but the lakes for me any day of the week less scary hmm yeah less unknown less unknowns out there in the lake so tell us about you know the get body checked against cancer campaign like Why did you get involved in this? Do you have a personal connection to it?

Well, I think just playing in the league long enough, the NHL has done a great job with the campaign. Hockey fights cancer. Over the years, you know, you've met a lot of people that have had to fight this disease. And you have some close friends that you still know here today, family and friends that have been hit with cancer and are fighting it still to this day.

So anything to kind of spread a message, you know, specifically with Astrosenica here, the Get Bodycheck.com is to get screened beforehand, even when, you know, you don't have any symptoms showing or any signs that you might have anything, it could still help in the long run. Give you peace of mind. If there's nothing there, that's great.

But if there is a, you know, if there is something there, you can hopefully catch it early and beat this thing because, you know, there's no doubt that we want, you know, a cancer-free world at some point and nobody to have to go through that. So, you know, I've had a couple things in Tampa. Former teammate Alex Killorn, we did some things. Moffat Cancer Center there, which is huge in Tampa. Like I said, it's always kind of stuck in close to my heart to help in any way to help people with this disease

because they're very inspirational to us as players. Certainly doing that. Ryan making a difference on and off the ice by teaming up with AstraZeneca in their Get Body Checked Against Cancer Public Health Campaign. Together, they're encouraging hockey fans in the Tampa Bay community to participate in the Body Check Cup, a league-wide challenge to determine which NHL team has the most fans committed to talking to their doctor about recommended cancer screenings and encouraging their loved ones to do the same.

To participate, fans can visit get bodycheck.com, select the Body Check Cup, choose their team, and pledge to get body checked against cancer by doing so they will automatically be entered into a drawing for some incredible prizes, including a trip to the Hockey Hall of Fame for themselves and a guest. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us. Good luck in the playoffs. We'll talk to you again soon. Awesome. Thanks for having me, guys. Appreciate it.

All right. Thanks again to Ryan McDonough and thanks again to Shana and Peter. Thanks for listening to this episode of the athletic hockey show. Haley and Sean return next Thursday. Laz and I will have the next athletic hockey show on Monday. We'll talk to you then. Have a great weekend.