The Athletic Hockey Show - Will the Seguin injury slow down the shooting Stars?

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

Tyler Seguin suffered a season ending injury this week, but the Dallas Stars keep rolling. Hailey Salvian and Shayna Goldman discuss the NHL's second best team the Stars, they ask is the 3-2-1 point system the way to go in the NHL and with the PWHL expected to expand to four more teams in time for next season, Hailey and Shayna submit their suggestions for PWHL expansion.Host: Hailey SalvianWith: Shayna GoldmanExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff DometWatch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the athletic hockey show. It's Haley Salvean and Shana Goldman here with you. That's right. We have kicked Sean Jintilly to the curb. Finally, he's gone. Shana, maybe filling in accidentally, unbeknownst to her.

Anyway, what's up, dude? Thanks for doing this. Hey, yeah, we've traded up in SGs. So we had to keep it. you know, even with that. Yeah, it's perfect. Shana was supposed to be a guest. And then Sean said, you know what?

I'm not available today anymore. So this is actually better. I agree. We've traded up in the SG category. A bit of news to start the show here, Shana from yesterday. This happened just after the Wednesday show. I'm going to give Sean,

Sean and Frank the benefit of the doubt. Tyler Sagan is likely going to be out for the remainder of the Dallas Stars season, because of an ACL injury, there aren't full tests done or a full diagnosis of the injury, but the star's head coach said he's going to miss some time and it's likely the entire year. 17 points in 26 games so far for Tyler Sagan played in his 1,000th NHL game back in October. It's difficult to see him have another injury like this after he was limited to. to 20 games last season because of hip surgery.

Then he returned for the playoffs. He's having a good season. The stars look good. Just another hit here for Tyler Sagan and maybe for the Dallas stars. How do you think this is going to impact this group, Shana? I mean, they're lucky. They're literally one of the deepest forward groups in the league and that's going to help them. But you look at them right now without Sagan, without D.

It's like, okay, so they're a little more of a two-line team than I think we anticipate. And what works is like they have two drivers on each line, right? Like it's Ranson and Wyatt Johnson. So you could just throw a guy there. And right now it's Sam Steele and it'll be okay. And the same with like Hinson Robertson. You can throw Ben there and everything's still balanced out. But you don't want it that you don't have that depth up and down the lineup,

especially when like you're in the central division. You're on a collision course for most likely the abs in round two. And obviously the stars had the edge last year. But, you know, that third line is going to be important. So like while they'll probably be fine because everyone else is really mid, this could be a problem down the line. Yeah, the central division outside of the stars and the abs isn't looking the greatest. I mean, I say that after the Minnesota Wild, they're 8-0-2.

They're pretty hot right now. The Utah Mammoth just had a big win last night. But if we're looking at legitimate Stanley Cup contenders, it's the two of them kind of alone at the top. What do you think Matt Dushain's potential return? He's nearing a return. He's day to day at this point. What do you think that's going to add to the stars lineup? Yeah, I think that's key for them.

I'm curious, like, does he play the wing in the top six somewhere? Does he try to, like, drive the third line? But I feel like, when you look at the star success last year, that second line was a huge part of it, is Marchman, Dushain and Sagan. And I think Duchin was the most important player on it. So to get him back is going to be a huge plus. It'll help the power play. It'll help it even strength.

It just makes the stars a little. more versatile too. You have more players that can play center. That's always a good thing. And it feels like you aren't locked into the same couple of combinations. So good thing there, but, you know, hasn't really played. So it's been a while. And when players are older, I feel like you always have to worry about like the rust building up a little bit more. So I think the other guys will give him breathing room because he's never going to be expected to be the guy in Dallas. And that's fine. He's not that at this point in his career. But, you know, more depth doesn't. It's never a bad thing. Yeah. I think what made Sagan and Ben specifically interesting in the playoffs last year,

as I remember watching and being like where they're at in the lineup and how they're playing. Like, this is fine. Like the numbers didn't scream off the page for Tyler Sagan. He had four goals, eight points, and 18 games in the playoffs last year. And it was like, that's fine. Wyatt Johnson's doing his thing. And you've got top of the lineup players doing their thing. you're still winning.

I feel like Sagan and Ben specifically just kind of, that is exactly what you would want from, like a middle six duo of, you know, quote unquote old guys when we're talking about the 30-year-olds. And that is what is maybe disappointing is you're going to lose a bit of that in Tyler Sagan in the regular season and down the stretch of the postseason.

Because I thought he was like pretty valuable to the stars last year, even though he's not, you know, the guy that stirs the drink anymore. But he's kind of aged into like decent old dude status. Yeah. And we're talking about 33 year old. So, you know,

it's fine. Chill, Haley. It's totally fine. No, I feel like that it applies more like with J. Badden and then you compare the contracts. And I know like it's hard to always look at players and then say,

well, because the contracts were signed so long ago, but it works because the stars have so many other. I don't want to say team friends. but like cost effective deals that you're like okay no big deal so it all kind of bounces out anyway Ben is the one that's going to interest me a lot down the stretch because his postseason last year I thought he was playing way too tough of minutes for like what he brings to the lineup and he wasn't delivering enough on the third line but I feel like this season the fact that he's playing top six again

and he's just the complimentary part of that line like he's not the guy at all he's literally the number I wonder if that gets his offense going a little bit more now because he's been scoring more and he looks good and effective in his role. Like will that set him up for more success in the long run? Could that kind of make up for things? Because I don't think he produced enough. I think Sagan's the one that it's like if you're picking between their veterans, their seasons. I was like it's Sagan every day. Right.

Yeah. The grizzled old veterans. They went from like Joel Pavelsky who was like old dude without cup, classically non-drubes. to like here's these 33 and 36 year olds that we're now talking about. Maybe it just speaks to how young they are or just how long Jamie Ben and Tyler Sagan have been around. I just feel like we've been talking about those guys for such a long time. And then you're like, oh, we're like the same age.

And the Ben contract felt like it was literally forever. Like it ended last season finally and you're like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll await a little bit more news on Tyler Sagan, but it does look like he's going to be out for the year. And in terms of Matt Duchayne, Glenn Gulletson said yesterday, it's still day to day for him, quote, but if he can stack a few good days upon each other, then I think it's going to be sooner than later. So a little bit of news there, maybe to come.

On the Dallas stars, something that just popped up here, Shane, as we were getting ready to come on the show, the Tampa Bay Lightning of signed defender Ryan McDonough to a three-year, $12.3 million extension. That's an AAV of $4.1 million for another 36-year-old veteran. You're a fan of McDonough, right? Like, what do you make of this deal? You like it? Yeah, like, do, I mean, listen, the contract's not going to age perfectly. Literally nothing is.

But it doesn't matter for Tampa when you think about their window. It's the same thing with the Yanni Gord contract. They're going longer term to help bring down the AVA, which is what you're. need to do in a cap world, but he's still effective. Like, he's still one of the better shutdown defensemen. I feel like he didn't always get credit, like, in his prime. It wasn't until he went to Tampa Bay that I feel like he got the recognition he deserves because he was part of, you know, two Stanley Cup winning teams.

But he still takes on these huge minutes. I feel like his return to Tampa Bay was massive for them. It, like, revitalized Chernak, who I think struggled a lot without him. It made Victor Headman's life a lot easier. It got the top board going. And that's what you need. Like he's not your typical what you think of shutdown defensemen, but it's what it is in today's game, right? Like the Slavins and McDonos of the world do it differently without being super, super, super physical.

So it's fine. I feel like it just is an important part of their team. They know what their team looks like without him. And it wasn't good when he was in Nashville. Right. The Tampa Bay Lightning are number one in the Atlantic, the East. And really the whole league, you had a story come out looking at the vibe check and like, what we learned in November and the,

it's really tight around the league, particularly in the Eastern Conference. The Tampa Bay Lightning are first in the Atlantic Division. They're third in the Eastern Conference. But like the Philadelphia Flyers are one point below them. The Devils are one point below them. The Pittsburgh Penguins are still in and around it. There's teams that we may be expected to be like rebuilding or struggling,

not so much talking about the devils, but people had completely written off the penguins. Flyers are still in their retool. So it's been an interesting year in the NHL just past the quartermark. I'm curious what you think about the lightning specifically because I think we went into the year saying, I don't remember if you picked them to win the Stanley Cup this year.

I think we did, though, when we were doing preview. So this was a team that we went into the year thinking, like they're going to be great. They're up there. They're not really separating themselves the way that a Colorado avalanche are. The abs are just a totally different beast. What have you made about Tampa at the quartermark or as we get into December? Yeah, they had such a bad start, which is why they're not separated.

Like, I feel like they should be. And it's my bias because I picked them to win. I thought they were going to win last year. But I think that they're figuring out ways to win with so many injuries, and that's definitely encouraging. Like, JJ Moser stepped up for headman in a huge way on the back end. I think Vaselisky looks better. Brennan Hagel's been outstanding. And that helped because Briden Point had a slower start to the year and also missed time.

So it's a bunch of things clicking. And it's just, I feel like John Cooper doesn't get enough credit for how he's managed this group with players having to step up in big roles and so many players coming in from Syracuse when like this isn't a team that has some star studded pipeline. This is a team that traded a million picks and prospects to be where they are now and they still make it work. Like it's a credit to the scouting and development, but it's also a credit to Cooper in the systems for being able to like keep everything going. I just think it's the power play is the one thing I'm still looking at going. That should be better. And obviously you have like Darren Radish playing the point on the power play not Victor Hedman right now.

Yeah. Point miss time too. But that's the one element that I'm like, if you get that going I think that they're going to really level up like relative to the rest of the east. The standings are so clustered, Shana. Do you see a fix for that? Like, do you want to see the NHL go into the PWHL 321? Do we just want to sit here and be like, there'll be some separation. It's only December 4th. But like, it's more clustered than really it ever has been. And I, um, suggest everyone should go and read Shana's story that came out the other day just looking at this data that you have here,

the visual to see just how tight it is in the middle. And then there's the one dot like way up high. I assume that's the abs, which is so funny to see it visually like that. But what do you make of this? And is the fix just three to one point system, Gary, come on. It works in the P. Dub. We love it in the PDAB.

Just do it. Yeah, like last year the standings were clustered at, I think it was what, November 30th in that Viz there. Yeah. And they eventually. There wasn't quite the like outlier like Colorado, I guess. Yeah. But it wasn't as tight still. Like you still have the outlier this year and everyone else is that closely knit.

It's like 11 points separating third place from 29th in the league. Right. That's not a lot at all. Every day I look and the penguins are either first in the league or last, you know. It's just so. everything about it. So are you still going to have tightly contested standings in a 3-2-1? Sure, because there's a lot of three-point games. We're seeing overtimes up on the rise, like, way more than seasons pass right now. And like there's little things you can do about it,

but I think the big winner here is the 321 point system. Like, yes, we love it in the PWHL, but also, you know, a regulation win that's in 60 minutes of 5-on-5 typically hockey, like that right there should be worth more. more than three on three, which I love three and three. I loved four on four to two, but it's not true hockey, right? And same with the shootout. It shouldn't count for the same, but it's also worth more than losing games in overtime. Like there's just a way to like adequately reward play and not just see, I don't know, I just think the loser points like playing everything down so much. And the standings don't change dramatically. They change a bit, right?

Like Winnipeg benefits from it over a team like, I don't know, Seattle. Yeah. But it's not, it's not that dramatic that you're like, oh, this will change everything. It'll just, I think, have a better depiction of who's actually good. Right. There's been a lot of three point games at this point in the season already this year. So I feel like we're seeing a lot of that this year specifically. Like I was looking through your story to like the ducks look like a real threat. Rebuilding teams like the sharks and the black hawks are in the mix.

Crack it in the West. And to your point, Shana, maybe those teams aren't. quite as high or maybe they're higher, maybe they're lower if there is a three to one point system. I just think it makes so much sense to like it just makes too much sense. Yeah. Why isn't it like that? That's just always my general thought. When the PWHL did, I was like, yeah, right. Regulation win is more valuable. You get three points. If you lose an OTA or shootout, here's two. Or if you win an OTI or shootout, here's two. It just makes too much sense for me to understand why the NHL hasn't wanted to go to that. And maybe it's just

that they don't like change. I get it. Me neither. Yeah, that's the NHL way of they don't like change. But like the change would be good and it would make games more interesting, right? Like if you're playing a division rival, which is something the NHL loves to promote, like, hey, everybody, look, the Keynes and Capitals are playing each other in their former playoff rivals and they could meet in round too. And all of that crap you could promote. okay, so say the game is tied with 57 minutes to go and they're tight in the standings, that extra point is going to be more meaningful. So maybe we see teams try a little harder in the last few minutes of games because you have

to approach it differently knowing you can get three points versus it's all the same if you go to overtime. And like, do you remember a couple years ago in the wild, we're in overtime against the Nashville predators and they pulled their goaltender in overtime? And it was like, if they lost that game, they were getting no points because they willingly pulled the goalie and it was like a rule. none of us knew. It was something so balzy.

And it's like they did it for a, that game was massive for them. Because they really wanted to win. Yeah, they needed the points to like be in the playoff picture. Like that is so important. So it's like, why not? Why not see what teams would do to get weird? Like maybe we'll see goalie pulls earlier.

Maybe we'll see teams go more four forwards 1D at even strength to try to type a game of pull ahead. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe we would see a little bit. of a change in terms of approach. Like, I know with three on three, it's a lot of puck possession,

but like you do see a lot of teams just like, all right, let's circle back. And then we'll go and enter the zone. Oop, it's not there. Let's circle back and just keep the puck. Like, that's still going to stay because obviously

puck possession's important and three on three can be like these wild swings of momentum. I get it. But maybe we would see a little bit of a different approach in terms of the attack or the defense or the general. the general vibe. And I think to your original point too, it's one thing to have a, the point system, the way the NHL has it now with like five on five, like regular overtime. Like the PWHL doesn't do three on three OT, but three on three is completely different and you're still giving the same

amount of points. I don't know. I'm with you, Shana. Every time, it's one of those things where every time it's brought up, I feel very passionate about it. And then, you know, my brain cell just floats away. And I'm like, whatever, they're never going to do it. No, probably, I never thought we'd get three on three. And now we're here that I'm like, okay. That's true. But then again, I also think we've seen some other swings to, like, not change the pace of games, but it's, it's not like directly correlated. But I'm sure that there's some influence here. Like, they, there was like an uptick in penalty calling in the last 10 minutes of regulation of games. And that was helping, like, just by consequence, helping, like, limit the number of overtimes. Like, there's things you can do

and tweaks you can make that way. But is that really the mover? Could you just fix a problem that has existed for some time? I don't know. Right. Yeah, I think it's interesting. And looking at the way that you changed the standings to, like I mentioned the ducks, like there's still number one in the Pacific and the regular standings. But if you give them all their OT wins, they have six overtime wins. They would have seven more points in the standings.

The Vegas Golden Knights would have more as well by nature of their regulation wins. But that's something that, I don't know, just seeing the ways in which the standings and the points and the separation between some teams changes is super interesting. I recommend everyone take a look. The Ottawa senators kind of. kind of dropped off a bit here too.

And the oilers. Yeah. Yeah. They haven't won much in regulations. Five OT losses. And they have only six regulation wins, which. Yikes. That's the same as the Canucks.

We should talk more about regulation wins at the end of the day. It matters. I'm going to track this all season, though. I'm going to keep track of it and see how much it changes too. Just like to see if it actually matters, like as the months go on. Yeah. Love that. Perfect. Okay, let's take a quick break. When we come back, I think we should, like, do a deep dive into the PWHL. We kicked Sean off. This is a women's hockey podcast now. That's coming up next on the athletic hockey show. All right, we are back. The PWHL is a few weeks into its third season now. They stood up two expansion teams in Seattle and Vancouver. Shana seems like two to four teams could be coming next season. Some big news to watch for the PWHL. But first,

like a little check-in on the expansion teams. Both of them were in action on Wednesday. Seattle Torrent. So this is a new thing is having to fight the snooze for women's hockey now. The end of the Seattle Torrent game against the New York Sirens last night was wild. Were a lot of people sleeping? Maybe. It was late.

I was fighting it too. but two late goals by Alex Carpenter and Hillary Knight, two primary assists from Hannah Bilka. They were on the power play the entire time. Or excuse me, one of the primary assists was Hillary Knight. The second was Hannah Bilka. But that kind of U.S. Olympic power play trio coming together on the power play in the final two minutes of this game,

Christina Kaltonkova for the Sirens was ejected, given a game misconduct for a major hit from behind. Seattle goes on the power play. They're down one nothing. They score twice from, as I said, the U.S. Olympic trio that are on the power play. The team is just stacked. Kind of not a great offensive game from them,

obviously until that point, but that's the kind of star power that the Seattle Torrent have, that you can just have Carpenter Knight and Bilka. Oh, and by the way, Julia Gosling, who could be on the Canadian Olympic team coming together for a last minute win. So that was exciting on the Vancouver end of things.

Another tough loss for the Golden Eyes. They haven't won since their 4-3-O-T win on their opening day, the season against the Seattle Torrent, a 2-0 loss to the Boston Fleet. Two shots in the first period. It's tough out here for a team that on paper has the most offense in the PWHL. Shana, do you have any tips for the golden eyes? I'm flying to Vancouver.

I'm sitting in the stands and I'm going to scream shoot. Just the entire time would be the most obnoxious fan in the world. Because like their game against New York, I was, listen, I didn't expect New York to be good this year. Like I had no illusions. They lost key players, including Carpenter and Schroeder. And I was like, this is probably going to be bad. And I was shocked that not only how bad Vancouver looked relative to them and even Seattle up to that power play, like the sirens were way better at five on five. of the entire game.

But like, I cannot believe how few shots Vancouver has generated. And the game against Boston, it's the same thing. Like, they have half of the fleet's shot total, I think, in the third period. And, like, at least they got their chances towards the end a little bit more. But, like, it's like we have to remember, like, okay, yes, the rules help them build these really good teams, but also it's the same thing in any league. Like, you're putting together a team from scratch of players who, sure, a couple of them might have experience, like you said, like this is the USA PowerPlay playing together.

You're going to have multiple players from Montreal on one team now. It's just like the result of it. But it's still a new team, new environment, new coaches, new systems, and you're building it from scratch. So there's an adjustment period. But like, please Vancouver shoot the puck just a little bit more. Yeah. I think we're seeing a lot of these growing pains for both of these teams, brand new

rosters. It's an expedited. training camp you don't really get a preseason with the full team like I don't even think I actually think that all the teams are almost being like too cheeky with their preseason lines it's like no one wanted to show their hands like all their lines and deep pairs were jumbled um even though I think some organizations had what their like opening day top line would look like they just weren't rolling them out because they didn't want people to know what they were doing it was just like why don't you just like work on things to be ready for the season you have two to three games to be able to

do it. I understand you want to give people opportunity higher up in the lineup to try to crack this roster. But it's just, it's such a quick run up to the season that I think you're seeing with brand new teams. It's going to take them some time in real time, in games that matter, to figure it all out. Vancouver, the only team without a regulation win this season now, as we were talking about the three to one point system. You know, I think we've seen the teams that were ripped apart actually bearing pretty well this season. I think there were a lot of concerns about the Boston fleet.

They lose Hillary Knight, and I still have questions of like who's going to score goals for the fleet, but they also have Aaron Frankel, so scoring two goals has been enough for them. Over the course of the season, there are 3 and 0. That hasn't been an issue. They're the only team that hasn't lost a game yet this season. So the Boston fleet look fine.

People were worried about the Minnesota Frost losing Sophie Jake, Sinclair Thompson. They've been fine. They've scored nine goals this season, you know, second most in the league. So it's going to be interesting to see now how this works once we go through this again, Shana. So to the news here. It's not breaking news because Amy Shear did allude to this during Ottawa City Council meetings back in October when she was talking about Lance down 2.0. I feel like we could do like a whole deep dive pot on that. So I don't think we can dive into that right now.

But she did mention this publicly several weeks ago that the league is expanding and growing and that they could grow by two to four more teams by next season. She doubled down on this and made it even like firmer in an interview with CNBC like a week or so ago now that she would bet. If she was a betting woman, she would say that they were going to be adding for expansion teams next season. I have talked about this on like a couple podcasts or on our CBC show. So I'm curious your thought, Shana, because like my overriding thought has been, do I necessarily agree that the PWHL should be getting to 12 teams so quickly? No, I personally don't see the rush, but I'm not a business person. Like, I don't know what stuff they have.

I don't know what's going on under the hood. I don't see a rush. But if we believe Amy Shear and we take the executive vice president of business operations at her word, that the goal is to get to 12 teams. That's their magic number. I would rather just see the PWHL rip the BWHL rip the B. Band-Aid off, do it all at once. There is a lot of talent coming in the draft this year, out of college this year.

It's going to be an incredibly deep, like, first round on its own with several players who could have gone first overall on different seasons. Abby Murphy, Caroline Harley, Layla Edwards, Kirsten Sims, even Lacey Eden's great. Like, there's so much talent coming. I think there'll be a wave of talent coming from Europe once the Olympics are over. A lot of European players or international players haven't wanted to make the jump or change their training plans in the lead up to Milan 20206, that might change. So there's going to be an influx of talent.

I think it'll be fine. But more than anything, I just don't want to see two back-to-back years of adding two teams and having two more expansion drafts. Just it's going to be a crapshoot if they add four, but like just do it and get it over with. That's my thought. Where are you at, Shana? Okay.

I'm a little opposite. Because like I agree with you. I'm not worried about the talent. Yeah, like the talent, there's a ton of talent coming in. I think there's enough talent for four more teams. You had players leaving the PWHL to go back to Europe this year too, which is very normal. And I think a good thing for the league too. It shows like there's more hockey out there.

There's more options for players. That's never a bad thing. I just worry about the business side of it. And like, yes, if they're saying they could do four, it's like, I trust you. But I'm also like, but should you, should you jump to that? Or does the slower rollout of two years, you know, two teams and then another two teams kind of help you expand the excitement a little bit more and keep easing everybody into it and also just help keep things on like sturdier ground because sometimes things that get too big

too soon you know like the the faster your eyes the faster you fall i don't know it's some sort of saying i'm really bad at those so i'm just gonna you know you know but i'm like i i i don't know i can't help you. I'm not. Yeah. It's close enough. A smarter person would be like, oh, yeah, this saying. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. That's, there was like a jeopardy category of these recently, and I was like zeroing out. That's just, it's not, not for me. But yeah, like, I just worry, like, if you do things too quickly, it's like, there's so much chaos that you don't want to see, like, crack start forming that you can't fix because everything's happening at once. And then women's hockey looks unstable again. And it's like, haven't we done this enough? And then I

also look at it like get the Ottawa situation figured out maybe work on New York a little bit because I still not thrilled with that. I feel like I feel like that'll just be the conversation. I think it's like just slowly unroll. I think that's a great point. And I know we've seen the WMBA, for example, they expanded really, really fast back when the league started and had to relocate teams. They had to fold teams. They had to fold teams. They had to go down to, you know, a fewer number. Now we're seeing a big boom and expansion in the WMBA, but that's like decades later, right? So I think we've seen the harm that can come from expanding too quickly. So I think that's a great point by you, Shane. And I also do wonder,

and as much as I think, like, just rip the band-aid off. Like, if you're going to do it anyways, just do it in one go for the fans, for the players, for the stability, more of the people who are going to be like can you imagine having to move to Seattle and then going to Detroit and then a year later going to Chicago like that sucks like I know that's the life of a professional athlete but let's also be real here these players aren't making that much money there are still a lot of people making league minimum making you know what is in many of these cities not considered to be a livable wage I know there's incentives that build this up but like that's a lot to ask of people who are, you know, some of who are making $40,000 a year, $50,000 a year.

So I would like to see them do what's best for the players and keep that in mind. And I think the league will. They've always said we're a player's first league. This league was born from a player movement. So I do think they will keep that in mind. But I guess to stick on the devil's advocate side for you, Shana, and parsing it out is maybe doing two this year allows you to consider two teams that might not be on the table right now in the future, if that makes sense. Like everyone's talking about Detroit.

Detroit makes a lot of sense. Where are you playing? Where are you practicing? Like that is going to be an issue when we're looking at the Detroit market. Little Caesar's Arena is booked and busy. And they're about to get a WMBA team playing. there as well. So that's my concern with Detroit, but like maybe is there infrastructure coming with the WMBA? I believe they're starting to make a practice facility for that team. Is that something

that can be shared? Is that something that can have ice? I mean, I feel like they're probably going to build that just to have a basketball court. But like does going to two different cities now and then going to Detroit a year or two from now allow you to work on some infrastructure or find a place to play to make Detroit more realistic. Or Pittsburgh or D.C., like those are some of the questions or like the benefits or the pros I would see of like going two and two.

If you had to pick right now, Shana, are you like, I don't care, let them play on a Tuesday night in Detroit or are you looking at different teams? Like what are your top two or four expansion markets for the PWHL? I do like Detroit a lot. And I think if they decide Detroit now,

I think that'll help, like, say they are building that practice facility for the W. Like, it's like, okay, now before it's built and you have to strip things down, like, change to the plans. I wonder if that would be, like, a better solution. But I think that they would be exciting. I think they make sense. They're like this, like, midpoint. They're the Midwest. It's like, okay.

And it's a big, really passionate hockey market. I think that would be a good thing. We see how Minnesota is. And I feel like they'd be similar. I like the idea of Denver, too. Because, again, you have teams at West. So you need that. travel to be eased a little bit

so it's not Vancouver just going to New York all the time. But I just feel like they've had a lot of success with their takeover tours too that that could be really exciting. Yeah, they broke Detroit's U.S. record and then Detroit broke it right back. But Denver showed well

and I think players really enjoyed it. I think Denver's this great option for people. I know it's not the same because it's in the U.S., but there are people who've said like, Calgary or Edmonton, like, Calgary's awesome, the Inferno legendary. Like if the PWHL expanded to Calgary, I know they haven't wanted to do this, but just, just go back to the inferno. Just do it.

Like, please. I would love to see that. However, with the Saddle Dome being, you know, crumbly and old and being demolished soon, I don't think you can go to Calgary until a new arena is there. Denver is kind of the American alternative option. It's, I mean, that's how it was always explained to me, at least, is Denver is like Calgary American version. So maybe that could be. We're just like, what are sayings?

What's geography? Yeah. No, that one actually, it checks out. That one totally checks out because it's like you're not going to, it's not like, okay, because you're in Seattle, you have to go to California. Like, yes. Okay, you're close to the teams all the way out west. You're close to Minnesota. there could be rivalries there.

I like that. And it's just beautiful. Nice mountains if you like that kind of outdoor vibe. That's nice. So I'm a fan of Denver. Let me give you one option. This is the most important thing in my life right now. Chicago expansion.

And you ensure you collude. You cheat. You get Abby Murphy there. I'm in. I like the idea of Chicago too. Again, that's super passionate fans. Like, that's a city that is big enough to have two baseball teams. I feel like that's always, like, so telling for me.

Like, New York's able to have multiple teams that you're like, okay, that could work, right? Like, Blackhawks fans are super passionate too. You're going to a place where hockey just makes a ton of sense. It just works. And then I also love the idea of, like, two Chicago teams coming up the ranks together in hockey. and it could be this like really cool moment for them because it's like a new era for the Blackhawks. And obviously like the men's and women's teams

and all the cities aren't like perfectly linked. But it's fun. I think there's something exciting about it because it's this like historic team and franchise but it's like this new wave of fans coming in because of players like Connor Bardard. So you bring in a women's star and it's like Bedard and whoever it may be, say it's Layla Edwards, you're like, go.

Oh yeah, Abby. Would work. There you go. You just have it that it's like, look at the two of them coming up there and just this new moment for Chicago hockey. Like that would be fun. Yeah. Yeah.

It would be super cool. I mean, Layla Edwards or Caroline Harvey or whomever from the first round have your pick would be a great building block. But Abby Murphy is from the south side of Chicago. And they just, the league needs to cheat to figure it out. Make up the rules. I know you can do it. I won't ask questions.

You know, this is the one time where I'm like, wow, what are the odds? That's so crazy. that you have the fourth overall pick for Chicago. I believe you. I believe that the dice rolled that way. It's going to be interesting to see the PWHL is going to Chicago this month. They will be playing at Allstate Arena, which is where we would assume a PWHL team would probably need to be based again,

kind of like Little Caesar's United Center is a booked and busy. There's not just one tenant in there. We know it's important for the PWHL to have, not just good infrastructure, but like available ice times for practice and for games. And a PWHL team would be like the fourth priority in Chicago behind the Blackhawks and hoops and events. So all state arena, we'll see how that goes. It's not in the downtown court.

It's more suburbs. It's in Rosemont, Illinois. So once the takeover tours there, I think we'll get a pretty good look at if something like that could work or is this going to be a Boston level situation that people are going to be mad about. So a couple of interesting touch points to come. But I think if I were to pick my four, I'm going to go Chicago, I'm going to go Detroit, probably Denver, and then a Canadian city. Like, maybe it's controversial to be to go three and one. And then a Canadian city would either be like a Halifax or an Edmonton. I like that. Yeah, that makes sense. And I actually kind of like the idea of

Halifax more than Edmonton, respectfully. I think Edmonton, you do. eventually with Calgary when they're ready. Like I feel like them two coming in together, start the rivalry, battle out of Alberta, like go off. And also if you're hitting the Midwest touchstones already, basically, you're going Chicago, Detroit, Denver. Like I feel like you're covering ground pretty well. So you can afford to go back east that it would be totally fine.

And Halifax would be fun. And it would be a little bit different here because they would be the only PW team without an NHL team there, right? Yeah. And I think it would just be like the Halifax Mooseheads there. Yeah. So junior hockey and they draw particularly well. So I feel like they could be like the preeminent pro team, at least when we're talking

about hockey in the area. Yeah. And that could help you in different markets too. You could learn how that works to see like could Quebec eventually be an option. Should maybe you ever consider going to Wisconsin and seeing like how you would handle things with college hockey being so prominent there? like it's a different vibe but why not like you don't only have to go to the 32 cities at the NHL's in already yeah my personal thought has always been like when people bring up madison

I'm like let the badgers cook there leave them alone I'm torn on that one because part of me is like that would be so cool I feel like the players would love it but I could be totally wrong like that's just me being like I think it would just be a bunch of badgers going there wouldn't be the worst thing but like no they'd be incredibly good Yeah. If we had to pick a different... I've never been. But if we had to pick a different

U.S. city that doesn't have an NHL team, if it's like, okay, that's not the one to start with, then like maybe Portland's the move. Ooh. That'd be different. I feel like NWSL is successful there and you're right by Seattle and Vancouver, which for all things,

he has like a great little rivalry. Like, I kind of like that. Yeah. I was going to say, too, for Halifax, there is a bit of proof of concept of women's sport already, the Northern Super League, the Canadian Pro Soccer League that launched last year, they were third in average attendance behind Vancouver and Toronto. So while Halifax maybe looks like a small Canadian market type thing, that's actually

been a city in a market that has shown the desire to support women's sports. And that is for the Northern Super League. And I can only imagine it be even greater for a hockey team. in that market and in this country. Okay. That's our expansion, I guess. I feel like we agree on everything. Detroit, Chicago, Halifax, Denver.

I'd go on that road trip. Works for me. I think that'd be fun. I'm in. I'm going to go sit in all the stands and yell shoot at all the new teams. Shoot the pub. You're the most annoying fan in the world. Yeah, it's crazy.

Dom has been working on a PWHL model. And I actually think we should blame Dom. I think he jinxed Vancouver because he was like, wow, this looks like the best team on the planet. they haven't won since so. Yep. And the cards look so nice with the golden eyes logo. Like he sent me them and I'm like I think the Vancouver card is my favorite.

Well, they're broken. Dom's fault. It's Tom's fault. We kicked Sean off the show and we're blaming Dom for all our troubles. This is the best energy. Great. Okay, let's take one more break. Then we're out of here. We'll be right back on the athletic hockey show. All right, welcome back to the athletic hockey show.

Very quickly here before Shana and I get out of here. two of Canada's I'm sorry, Shana. You're American. It's fine. This is the Canada corner, unfortunately, for you. Two of Canada's greatest hockey players are being inducted into the IHF Hall of Fame.

This came out Wednesday night. That is Cassie Campbell Pascall and Patrice Bergeron. They're among seven inductees into the Hall of Fame's class of 2026. Cassie Campbell obviously won two Olympic gold medals as captain of Team Canada, seven gold at Women's World Championships, 10 different tournament appearances

from 94 to 2006. It's kind of crazy that she hasn't been inducted into anything like this. She has been retired for, like she has been on hockey night in Canada for, or just on broadcast, excuse me, I should say, on Sportsnet or ESPN for decades now. So this was long, long overdue

for Cassie Campbell-Paskel. Patrice Bergeron, of course, won Olympic gold with Team Canada, 2010, 2014, World Junior Championship, Boston Bruins captain. So two Canada grades getting in. Thoughts on Canadian excellence? Two Canadian icons that I'm so glad are retired and never playing again. No, I feel like you think of both of them, though, and it's like, oh, that is like a great error. like Cassie Campbell has been so involved in all levels of hockey for so long it really is mind-boggling that it took this long and Patrice Burge around like he's the gold standard for two-way play at all levels internationally leadership all of the good things and more like name the Selke after him because he won it a million times and like sometimes it was like everyone's lazy because we don't want to measure defense but it's also like no he's that good so yeah but very good choices a couple more inductees here, and we should say like,

hockey Hall of Fame next for Cassie Campbell. I feel like I've been hitting that table in the builder category specifically, but also as a player. There's a backlog like she could go in and both, but I think Danielle Sovajo getting in as a builder finally after all these years probably opens the door for more women to be recognized for what they've done to grow the game, specifically for women's sports. So Cassie Campbell, Pascal, the Hockey Hall of Fame is next for you.

A couple other inductees, Florence Shelling, legendary, goaltender, Thomas Vanek, Nicholas Cronwall, and builder, Ralph Kruger. So that's your 2026 IHF Hall of Fame class. Congrats to everyone. Congrats. They've all earned it. But no, she should be in as a builder. We need more women in as builders. Yeah.

Like, we need more women in the Hall of Fame, period. We need more women. Just there. Yep. Perfect. That's it. No, no. Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of The Athletic Ocky Show.

That's all we've got to say. Thanks, Shana, for pinch hitting here. Sean will unfortunately be back next week. Prospect Boys have the next show on Friday. Thanks, thanks everyone for listening.