The Athletic Hockey Show - Will Tristan Jarry ever play for the Penguins again?

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

Hailey and Sean welcome Penguins beat writer Josh Yohe to discuss the Pens decision to waive Tristan Jarry with three and a half years left on his contract, how much of the latest failure in Pittsburgh is on General Manager Kyle Dubas, and where this franchise goes from here. Max Bultman drops by to talk about the Red Wings 7-2 turnaround with Todd McLellan behind the bench, and we update our listeners on our team draft from the start of the season.Hosts: Hailey Salvian and Sean GentilleWith: Josh Yohe and Max BultmanExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. What's up, everyone? Welcome to the athletic hockey show. It's Haley and Sean here with you for the first time on a Thursday in the year 2025. I was off talking to Mary Phillip Poulin last week. Couldn't host the show. Wow.

Congratulations. Congratulations on all your success. Thank you so much. It was great. Yeah, it was wonderful. I just needed to name drop like really quick. So people would remember why they care about listening to me to. talk about hockey. I talk to Poulens. You can listen to me. But we're back finally. What's up,

Sean? Is it too late to say happy New Year? Yes, it is. We had this conversation on the Wednesday show. I said this last week. I said this last week to McIndoo and Frankie. I think it was the 8th of January and I said, happy new year. And they were okay with it. It seemed like the internet at large was against me on that one. That's a memory. That was like a customs thing. I'm just trying to bring the Tuesday boys vibes to Thursday. Whoever that may have, who's who's, who's, who's, who's

custom? Who do you mean by that? What's that name? He's a, um, a renowned author. Oh, right. Right. I heard, um, his book is a great gift around the holidays. You know, I have a copy of it. I haven't, haven't gotten around to read that one. We'll see. All right. So, um,

our long lost friend, Max Boltman is going to join us for the second and third segment of the show for a bit of, Red Wings talk and an update on our team drafts from the start of the season. We did those with McIndoo, but we didn't invite him to come on the show. We invited Josh Yoey instead because there's a bit of Penguins news to discuss today. The Pittsburgh Penguins waived Tristan Jari again on Wednesday afternoon. He was sent to Wilkes Bear back in October and has been back with the Penguins since November 15th, but this time feels a little bit different, Josh.

Thanks for joining us. We've upgraded from Macadoo to you. Thanks so much. Wow. My pleasure. Haley, happy new year. I will not tell Sean, happy new year because I can tell he's against it now.

Thank you. Yeah, it's usually never boring with the penguins. And this season certainly hasn't been boring. It's been quite the roller coaster. But nothing says roller coaster like watching Tristan Jari play goal. Yeah, he's been all over the place. His talent is undeniable, but his instability, I think, is even more undeniable at this point.

And I think clearly between Kyle Dubus or Mike Sullivan, the penguins had had enough. And this one feels a little different than when he went down to Wilkesbury in October. I think there's a real chance we never see him play for the Pittsburgh Penguins at the NHL level again. Yeah, you swiped it out from under me. I was going to say this until the end, but like, no more questions. Let's put a percentage on it. Like, like, what, what are the odds that we've, that we've seen the last of Tristan Jari in a penguin's uniform here? Because it feels, I don't know.

I'm, I'll leave that for you. What is it? I'm going to say like 70% chance we never see him in Pittsburgh again, which isn't to say it's impossible. They could get a bunch of injuries. The Dolkovich and Blumquist could get hurt and whatever. Maybe it's possible then. But I asked Dubis today, I said, what's the plan here? Like, is he staying in Wilkesbury all season?

could he be recalled? And Kyle, you know, he's got a little, I like Kyle, but he's got some politician in him. So he kind of danced around it a little bit. But he gave the impression that this is not some short-term thing. And I just feel like they've lost so much trust in him. Like, there's always this narrative with Jari, like, I waiting for him to mature to come into his own.

He's been in the organization for 12 years. He's 30. 30 in April. Like, he is what he is at this point, right? And that doesn't mean he can't be a good goalie elsewhere. He's the classic change of scenery guy. Yeah. He needs that, but with his contract, I don't know who's going to be willing to give

him that. So he might have to get used to the scenery in Wilkesbury for a little while, unfortunately for him. Well, we're almost like part of the conversation with Jari and further with Dubus when we think about the contract. He's only 18 months out from signing that $26 million deal. He's got what, three and a half. half years. No. Yeah. Yeah. Three years after this one.

Three years after this one left on it. Um, like this was a conversation point with Jari when Sean was still writing about the penguins. Like I distinctly remember reading a Sean Gentilly column in the series against the Islanders about like, okay, enough's enough with this guy. I think we, I think that was that was during lockdown. I think I think all, I think all three of us were working from from Rossi's house that that game. I, I remember that one well. As years ago, years ago, four years ago. And we're having the same conversation. Now there's a bit more finality to it.

I still remember, you know, July 1st, 2023 is a day for the penguins that, man, I think Kyle's done some good things, but that day he must regret on so many different levels. There was already uncertainty in the organization, and I think deservedly so about Jari. He had already been a terrible postseason goaltender at that point. the penguins had, you know, really started to decline, and they gave him a five-year deal. And I know for a fact, Sean and Haley, I know for a fact, everyone in the organization was kind of leery about him getting that five-year deal. But at that time, Dubus, I think, felt cornered a little bit. It was a terrible goaltender market.

They didn't have a goaltender in that the summer 23 was so bad for goaltending. And thus, Jari had a lot of leverage. And I think what happened, and I don't know this for a fact. This is just my observation. but I think when Dubus took control of the penguins, he knew he had to build toward the future. He knew he had to replenish the system. That was obvious.

But when you're taking over the penguins, you still have to look Sidney Crosby and Mike Sullivan in the eye and say, well, I'll help you win a little bit because you don't want to say, hey, we're rebuilding. Sorry, you guys don't want to hear that. And I think Kyle gave in a little bit and tried to spend some money that day to keep the penguins competitive in the present.

And it blew up in his face. I mean, you got Ryan Graves and Tristan Jari out of it. That's almost $10 million a cap space that is not helping the penguins and that won't for a long time in all likelihood. So he made a huge mistake that day. And Jari, there were so many people I heard from in the organization that day who said, man, I don't know about giving that guy five years, where we're not really sure about what the finger holds.

And they were proven correct. I guess the one thing in Dubus's defense, like if you look at a lot of, lot of the top goalie UFA rankings. Like he was the number one guy. It was either Jari or Frederick Anderson in the summer of 2023. And like Freddie Anderson had already done the whole UFA thing with Dubus back in Toronto, right?

Like the UFA list were Jari Anderson, Corpusalo, Barlamov, and like Martin Jones. It was bleak, but it's still a bad contract. Like I, not to defend him because it's obviously aged very poorly. that's what makes the Jari conversation a little interesting is like how much blame is at the foot of dubus for signing the deal and how much of it is Jari, you know, not living up to expectation or like being this. Because you said like this is a really talented goaltender. He just hasn't been able to put it together. They both wear it, but. Is he that talented? Like that's, that's my question. That's my question about him. Like we talk about him and we have like Josh, you and I have had this conversation. We've had it with. We've had it. we've had it with other people. Like people do praise the level of, you know,

raw ability that the guy has. But man, he's 30 and he's got an 885 save percentage or whatever it is. Like his, well, that's why I said failing to live up to expectation, not like he's taking too long to get there. Right?

I just never like, maybe he will. I just like, I think that was some kind of justification. It's at some point that the talent would win out. And it's like, yeah, he's,

this isn't. Andre Vasileski were talking about. This isn't Mark Andre Fleur? This isn't like some guy who you see who jumps off the screen or jumps off the ice in terms of, you know, physical measurables or reflexes or anything like that. He's an NHL goaltender. This isn't like there isn't, I don't know how much more of a well there was left a tap here over the last couple years. But that was still kind of the thing. It seemed like people were hanging on to it.

I think that's fair. I mean, I do think he is talented. When he first saw him play, like, he's pretty big. He's pretty athletic. He handles the puck really well. He does have some attributes. Not against the islander. No.

Well, we'll get to that in a second. Yeah. I think he did just, he would go in these binges in November and December where he'd be unbelievable for six weeks. That's how you make All-Star games. His numbers pre-and-post all-star game in his career are unbelievable. He gives up almost a goal for games. He gives up almost a goal more per game in the second half of the season.

It's incredible because he would go on these hot streaks. And I think when he would go on those binges that got him to All-Star games, that was enough to seduce the penguins into thinking, like, man, look at how good he can be. We just have to figure out how to put it all together with him. So I don't think his physical, no, he wasn't Dominic Hachick, but I think he has the physical skill to be above average annual goalie, for sure. his issue was always the mental game. I've never covered a hockey player,

let alone a goaltender who has more mental lapses in games than he does. And it's constant. And I don't say that to make fun. A lot of us have mental lapses in everyday life, probably, but we're not in the spotlight of an NHL goaltender, right? But he would just do things. Like, I really think the final straw guys, I don't know if you saw last week when the Penguins played Columbus.

They're up 3-1 with eight minutes left. He goes behind the net, freezes with the puck for just a second, then turns it over. It's in the back of his net five seconds later. Penguins lose four, three in a shootout. And Sullivan really ripped him after the game. And he never does that, like publicly. He was very clearly, visibly unhappy with Jari.

I really have the sense that was the last draw that Sully basically went into Kyle Dubus's office and said, hey, enough. We're not going to work with this guy. I think some of the irony here, too, is like, you look at the stats. This isn't, this isn't. issue where Alex and Delkevich has dramatically outplayed him or taken the net or whatever. Those guys have been equally bad throughout, in a lot

of measures through the course of the season. So the fact that the axe falls on him, you know, I don't know, like it's easy to project I guess when you see this, but like you know, there's other concerns other than strict statistics here, right? Oh, for sure.

No, and I'm glad you brought that up, Sean, because Nadalkovich hasn't been any good this season. He's clearly regressed from last year. Yoel Blumquist has been recalled, and he had a really good stint. He played six or seven games, I think, earlier in the season, played really well. Everyone's impressed with. You know, I've talked with a lot of scouts who think he's going to be like maybe an okay NHO goalie, maybe a Ned kind of guy, but he doesn't necessarily have an incredibly high ceiling.

So I hope expectations are kept in check for him as well. And I will also say, like, being the goaltender for the penguin, it's not easy. This isn't a franchise that's rooted in good defensive hockey year. It just isn't. I always tell this story. When Mark Andre Fleury left Pittsburgh,

he was putting up Vezina numbers, his first year in Vegas. I'm out in Vegas. I said, Flower. I said, how the hell are you putting up these numbers on an expansion team?

And he says, well, you know, I'm not in Pittsburgh anymore, so no breakaway or two-on-one every other shift, you know. I'm like, that's a good point. I never looked at it that way.

I mean, it's mentally taxing to be the goaltender for this team because even to this day when the big guys are past their prime and all pushing 40, I promise you, Crosby, Malkin, Carlson, Latang, they want to win 6'5. They don't want to win 2.1. They won't admit that, but it's just in their DNA. It's who they are. It's not easy. It takes a special kind of personality and a special mental toughness to thrive, I think, for a goaltender in those conditions. That's just not Jari. He's a very difficult guy to describe. I mean, I don't know if immature is the right word, but for most of his.

career, there's always whispers, like he's just not the mentally toughest guy. He's out of shape sometimes, this and then. And I think he had rectified a lot of that in recent years, but I just think it became too hard for him over the years to really thrive here. So I think like the why is pretty clear in terms of just wanting a fresh start and wanting to get Blumquist up. You just try something new with their number one goalie. But I guess like, why now? Is there, I know there's a seven game road swing coming up like it's going to be important. Like is this a, we need to save the season or just enough's enough. Like what do you think about the timing here, Josh?

Really good question, Haley. I thought it was, you're welcome. I thought it was kind of curious myself. Dubas actually referenced the seven game road trip they have coming up. Basically as a timeline, they wanted to know where their goaltending was before that trip, I guess. My sense is they just became frustrated with Jari and didn't see him making any progress because he played,

played a little better when he was recalled in November. Not great, but he had some games that they lost a game in a shootout in Florida, January 3rd. He played great that game against the defending champs. I was thinking after that game like, all right, maybe he's getting it together a little bit. Then came the Columbus game, and then came the last two games when he only faced 17 shots in each game and gave up three goals and both. And I just think the frustration mounted from the coaching staff more than anywhere else if I had to guess. Don't know that for a fact. That was my sense.

And, you know, do the penguins, are they trying to save themselves to make the playoffs, I guess? I've never had the sense from Dubus that he thinks this team's all that good. Before the season, we were asking Kyle about the playoffs, and he really limited expectations. It was as if he was saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, the team I put together isn't that good. We're kind of rebuilding here. Like, let's hold off. Or you talk with Mike Sullivan or Sidney Crosby, like, we're winning the damn cup. That's all they care about.

That's how those guys are wired. A different problem in it of itself. It is. Because they are rebuilding. No one wants to call it. That's exactly, when you trade Jake Gensel for prospects and you're just, you know, trading Lars Eller for drafts, like, of course you're rebuilding. But it just so happens you have like four future Hall of Famers on your roster.

So calling it a rebuild is awkward and you can't really call it better around those guys because they're not going to appreciate that. It's the weirdest rebuild ever because of that. Yeah. I think it's interesting actually because he, his first game back. Jari's first game back from that stint would have been on November 15th, and we're recording this on January 15th. That's when he got waived.

They gave him three months. 7-7 and 4 record 8.93 say percentage in the 305 goals against average in those two months. Not good. It's not proving yourself to keep a job. And I guess we haven't mentioned before I bid you guys that do. like the fact that he gave up a goal on the first shot of the game six times already this season is really an extraordinary thing I can't believe that six times he gave up a goal in the second shot of the game last night and it's actually a penguin wide thing because ned's done it three times and bloomquist it at once

so the penguins have played like I don't know almost 50 games I guess now and they've given up a go on the first shot 10 times that's more than 20% of the time it's unbelievable it's like I've never seen anything quite like it Markstrom had a stretch like that in Calgary, but he could like figure it out after that happened. Right. Right. Opening, opening night next season in October, who's the Penguins goalie? Is it, is it Blumquist? Is it Ned? Is it Mr. Outside Higher?

I will guess Blumquist. I think they really like him. And I don't think Ned's ever going to be the number one guy. But I will throw this name at you guys. he's probably not going to be ready, but they have a prospect named Sergey Miroshov, who I think is only 20, a kid from Russia who is tearing it up with the Wheeling Nailers in the HCHL. And I know it's just the ECHL.

This kid is freakish athletically. They really, really like him. It's probably a couple of years away, but I think he probably has a higher ceiling than Blumquist. He's got the wheeling feeling, baby. We should all take a little road trip to Wheeling, guys. Let's go. I think Sean would appreciate Dollar Beer night. on Fridays in Wheeling. I've been there. It's pretty wild.

Do that. Can you hit the, hit the dog track. Sure. Sure. Make a, make a day of it. I like it. This is a side of Sean who've never seen. Oh, God, I'm sorry. I brought it out. Yeah, the dog, the dog, the dog betting enthusiast. Yeah. I didn't know about that either. It was, I went there for, I went there for one bachelor party and it was weird, weird, weird experience. We could talk about that off Mike. You went to Wheeling West Virginia for a bachelor party?

Yeah, there's a casino and in the racetrack and stuff. It was bizarre. You need to hear more about this. We can talk about that later. On that note, thanks for the Penguins update, Josh. Happy New Year, Haley. My pleasure. Feel better.

Oh, thank you. I'll learn how to count next week. All right. We're going to take a break. When we come back, Max Boltman's going to join us. We'll chat a little bit about the rest. Red Wings and take a look at who is winning. It's me.

The team draft from earlier this season. I can do that. I'm the host of the show, Sean. That's coming up next on the Athletic Hockey Show. All right. We are back here on the athletic hockey show. Sean, if Craig is the dad who went out to get cigarettes and never came back, what does that make, Max?

He's Craig. Come on. I don't know this. He's top of this, Craig. Max is, uh, Max is, is the kid who just came back from summer camp. I think, yeah, like the wayward little brother who got,

you know, sent away to, sent away military school. He's got, he got a little taller and, yeah. He's got a very, he's got a beard now. Look at him.

I guess that wouldn't be a lot of military school, but. Yeah. Never know. It grew it on the day. On the flight. Bus back. Yeah. Things have changed, my friend.

You're the, you're covering a half decent hockey team these days. Yeah, it's been interesting. I mean, the last three weeks, it's been, I mean,

as you know, I haven't covered a whole lot of winning hockey in seven years. So it's come up a little bit of new territory. But yeah, it's been interesting. So, whether there's seven and two on a McClellan, loss in the first game, seven-game winning streak.

They lost earlier this week. Is there one lightning bolt change that you've seen from this team over the last three weeks versus the Derek Londera? At the risk of sounding kind of trite, like I do think it's kind of transformed their belief, their self-belief. I think it comes down to McClellan's presence, right? And you don't have the career that he's had in the NHL without picking up some, some, some, for how to push the right buttons and get the most out of guys. And I think that's probably the biggest difference. I think on day one he came in and he said he felt like they were too mechanical and he wanted

them to play more instinctively. There's a quote to that effect in a little more blunt language going around that I'm sure you've all seen. And I think that was effective. I really think that's like a big part of this is they it, I think that kind of reminded them that, you know, hey, you guys are good hockey. But when you go through the amount of losing they've had, it's probably impossible to not take a huge confidence hit there.

And I think McClellan from the outside was able to come in and recognize that. And so that's part of it, that instinctive element. There was a comment that he made earlier this week that really resonated with me. He was talking about Eric Gustafs, a guy who free agent signing had had a really rough first half. Not only was he like having the defensive struggles that I think you would expect of a guy of his profile. It wasn't producing it all either. He hadn't scored a goal. There wasn't that much offense.

He wasn't on PowerPlay 1. It just looked like it wasn't working out. And McClellan gets here and he looks transformed. And he was talking about Gustafson. And the line that he said was like, everybody feels important. Like when all the lines are playing, well, everybody feels important. And that's good. And that strikes me as kind of the through line here.

And I said this on the Monday show. But I do think that speaks to just the some of their parts kind of thing that's happening here is everyone's kind of feeling a little more confident. And when you have that, that the team game just improves. He splits up Edvinson Insider, which seemed like, well, that's, like the one thing that's working. What happens is Ben Chirot and Jeff Petrie once again are in important roles and you're getting more out of them seemingly out of, not out of nowhere, but like out of just that one change where it seems logical to lean on those guys.

Those are your horses, but you split them up. Now all of a sudden you have your top fours more spread out. There's a balance element to that. But I think maybe more importantly is it just kind of reminds those players like, hey, you're a big part of this too. It's not just we're leaning on these young guys. So that's the thing that probably stands out to me most. So in the nine games or a few weeks, so since December 27th, who do you guys think is second in the NHL and scoring?

Max don't guess first. Lucas Raymond. Did you Google that? No. It's Lucas Raymond. Three of the top 10 players in NHL scoring since December 27th are Red Wings. It's Lucas Raymond with 14 points. Patrick Kane is in here and Dylan Larkin.

I know the power play has been unbelievable. It's like it was clicking at a 50% rate for a pretty protracted amount of time there. This is something we've seen from them in the past. We saw it last season where the power play carries them, which always hesitant to dump on it, right? Because it counts, power play goals count. I don't mean to discount the importance of special teams here. but is this how much of how much of this run has to do with that? Like have they been a, do you see an appreciably better five on five team in addition to the,

to the cooking on the power play like they have? Well, I think it's a really good point. I think the power play has to be the biggest reason for the win streak, right? Like as much as we want to talk about the good vibes and the morale, like when you have a power play going 50% and usually giving you one to two goals a game, it's you really can't overstate how important that is. That's the biggest thing. And all those guys you just mentioned, huge pieces of that.

I do think that there is more, they're putting more pucks to the net, and that's a big part of this. Like, that's the big five-on-five difference you notice is they're finally out shooting teams, which never was happening in the first half, it seemed like. But yeah, I think the power play is the biggest reason. And that's why, you know, I'm sure I've probably irritated the fans a little bit and still kind of writing about this with a tone of like, well, we'll see how sustainable it is or how can they keep this up. That's a big reason why is that the power play is at a rate that just hits. history says can't quite sustain. So I think that's a good point by you. What is this meant for cider,

aside from, you know, maybe having some easier minutes because you said they split up at Vincent and made a little bit more equitable workload between the pairs. Like how has he looked now versus, you know, six weeks ago? Well, I think he's been really good all year, to be honest. Like he, I know that people have looked at his offense and said, well, it's not where it was when he was a rookie. And that has come around. So that's like a notable thing. But I think that was just coming. Like I think as the power play's gone on the street that it's been on, he's picked up some points there too. And I think one thing that is notable is I asked McClellan, like, did he know that he see Cider as a power play one quarterback? Because I'm not always sure whether that has been their vision for him. If they see him

as kind of a bridge as the power play one quarterback or if that's like in his bag. And McClellum was like, I didn't know that was in his game, but I certainly see that now. And so that is, that is real. Like his offenses has ticked up just a little bit, I think more more so with the power play. But that in itself is a big development, right? Like you want your number one defenseman to be able to do literally everything. And he does look like he can, even if at one point it looked like maybe it's more power play two kind of offense. Now I think that's there.

And then you just see, you know, when the team energy picks up the way it has, guys like Sider who have that physical element, I think are always a part of it. You see the reverse hits. He had one again the other night. And that's just the kind of thing that does spark a bench. And when you can have one of your young leaders doing that, I do think that goes a long way. And he's been, he's been excellent. But I think he's been really good all year.

I don't know where you guys perceived him to be at, but I wrote the other day. I think he's knocking right on the door of top 10 in the league. It's possible he's already in that 10. But I think he's right there if not. I think the minutes were just so brutal and unfair, frankly, again, for a second season in a row that that's, that to me was a dominating narrative for him. Not, like, we know that he can handle it to a certain degree. But, you know, it's also, you feel bad for him because he gets thrown for the, because he gets thrown for the, will throw into the wolves just shift after shift after shift again for a second year in a row so

now it's like you're seeing you know this was sort of i guess when if you want to extrapolate on on on on the minutes and how he still kept his head above water for the most part in them this season you know this is like delivering on the promise of that right where you're like if they if they could just find some way to ease things up for them you know they really might have something here and it seems like on on my end at least that that that's that's kind of what they've hit on i And I think Cider is the guy who likes playing those minutes. I think he likes the challenge of it. And it's not like they've taken him and given him sheltered minutes or anything all of a sudden.

But it does make a difference. He's still playing like 25 minutes a night. Totally. It's just it's gone from being like the hardest minutes in the league by far. So like, yeah, these are still really hard minutes, but there's comparables, right? The Florida top pair does it. The Tampa top pair does it. He's now in that range.

And I think it's more. I'm scrolling through my old Slack right now because I'm trying to find a conversation Dom and I had from this summer. But like at one point this summer, I went through and looked at the guys who took the hardest minutes in the league and saw like, is it even possible to have an expected goal share above 50 in this kind of workload, right? And I think what I found was like in the top 10 hardest minutes, there was like one guy at like 49 percent and nobody else was like in the 50 like margin of error. But then in the next group, 11 to 20, it's like all the best D in the league. So it's like, yeah, give your best defense men hard minutes. don't kill him and let them thrive in it. But like hard minutes for sure.

That's part of the whole proposition of why you draft a guy like ciders. You want him to take those tufts. But don't make it so underwater. And I think he's in that sweet spot now. And yeah. So it just reminded me of that conversation what you just said, Sean, that conversation I had with Dom. I can't find it.

So I don't know where it went. But it was interesting. Someone could probably go back out there and look for it too. Maybe I'll do that again after this. Yeah, I think it was in one of Dom's 16 stats. there's like a big thing about cider. He wrote about cider quite a bit. What's going to be really important on this next stretch for the Red Wings, Max?

They go to Florida, Tampa, Dallas, three cup contenders, and they play the flyers. Like, how much are we about to learn about the Detroit Red Wings on this stretch? Because maybe there's still a bit of new coach bump, but I assume that like seven game win streak, honeymoon phase. I don't mean to sound like dramatic when I say it's over because like, you know, they're still going to be fine. But it seems like there's going to be a lot we can learn here about who this team is once they're not riding the high of new coach seven game one streak against good teams. If you had any hesitance in saying the honeymoon period is over,

last night he was at the podium and literally said Justin Hall had a terrible night. So I think it's fair to say we're now in the next phase after the honeymoon, right? Like it's gone into the work phase, which it was always going to get to. And you're exactly right, Haley. Like we're going to learn a lot about them right now. And it may not be because, oh, well, they have to win. three out of four against Florida, Tampa, Dallas, Philly. Like, I don't think anyone expects that.

But can you get a 500 road trip out of this? Can you play Florida and Tampa and Dallas tight and not let it get away from you, not give everything back right here? I think that's the key. I think they all know that there's a chance they're going to go on this road trip. And the wins are going to be really hard to come by. They've had a hell of a hard time trying to win in Florida, Dallas, and Philly for my entire time on the beat.

And it's not going to shock me if they lose all of those games. right? I don't think they can go 0 and 4 and oh and come back with this with their heads held too high. But I think if they come back like one, two and one, that's kind of a par road trip here, as long as the two losses that are regulation losses aren't like, you know, they got run out of the building kind of thing. Right. If they can play tight with these teams and look like they're playing how they want to play, that I think is what you're going to learn more so than, you know, oh, can they go 4 and

get themselves to a playoff spot? Right. Is it like not so much a measuring stick road trip, but like stay in striking distance of the wild card and let's not embarrass ourselves here? And just prove that you're going to play the way you need to play. Yeah. You know, the way that you've shown yourself you can play and you're not going to get, oh, the winning streak's over. Now we're going to get desperate and start to do a bunch of stuff that we're not supposed to do. Right.

I think that's what what it's really about is can this stuff take hold and stay, you know, entrenched in their identity when they're not winning every single game? because it's really easy, I think, to keep the buy-in high when you're winning. How could it not be? But when things aren't going well, can you stay disciplined to that? I think is really what the test is on this trip. I guess the last Red Wings-related question, beyond just the confidence that you're seeing being instilled in players, like what are the biggest differences you've seen from a Todd McClellan kind of coaching style versus Derek Leland? What stands out to you?

Well, they've changed their penalty kill. that's probably the number one thing. They've gone from penalty kill that had one guy kind of consistently aggressively pursuing outside to maybe trying to be a little more selective on when they pressure. And it doesn't mean they don't want to be aggressive and they don't want to pressure. But I think they really have been cautious to not give up kind of East West plays and not get caught like running around trying to chase a guy. And I think frankly, before McClellan, they tried a lot of things on the PK too.

And it just never really took. And so the PKK was the first thing that McClellan and Trent Yawney, the new assistant coach, identified and have gone to work at. And then I think a lot of the framework is still similar. And it's just, you know, new details, right? Maybe you change up the forecheck a little bit. You change up the neutral zone a little bit. But the framework I do think is pretty consistent, at least from what I can tell. I'm not going to say I have the most expert eye in the world for this sort of thing. But my understanding is the framework is probably the best word I can come up with what they're doing is still pretty similar with maybe details fixed and maybe adapted to

to their personnel or to what they want to try to week on a given day. All right. Well, Detroit Red Wings, they're still in it, 44 points heading into Thursday night's games on the schedule. There are only like three points back at the Ottawa senators at this point. The Columbus Blue Jackets, four points back. So they're in it. It's going to be interesting to keep watch.

You can hear Max talk about the Red Wings more on the Monday show because he ditched us. But he's going to be here for one more segment. When we come right back, we're going to take a. look at the team draft. If you remember it, we did it earlier in the season. We all selected our starting lineup. We're going to see who has the most points at this point in the season. It's me.

We'll be right back. All right. Welcome back to the athletic hockey show. Max Boltman is still here with us. It's Haley and Sean on the Thursday show. And if you guys remember at the beginning of the season, Sean, Max, and I drafted, starting lineups to take count of, okay, this is,

if we had to build a team right now, let's do a little draft, and we'll track the points throughout the season. We haven't done a look back since. So we felt this was a good time to keep Max along and do a little check-in on how things are doing. If you don't want to go back and listen to that whole episode, we'll recap who each roster is very quickly here.

So Sean Gentilly had McDavid, David Pasternak, Jason Robertson, Roman Yose, Josh Morrissey, and Igor Shisterkin, and we did three forwards, two D, one goalie, and we made them be the natural position, so it wasn't just three forwards, it was left-wing center, right-wing. But I don't believe we did left-d-d-right-D. We did not. We just did two-d. We did. And then I selected Nathan McKinan, Miko Rantin, Evan Bouchard, Adam Fox, Jake Gensel, and Stuart Skinner. Max selected Nikita Kutrov, Krio Kareel Caprizov, Victor Headman, Quinn Hughes, Jake Ottinger,

and Austin Matthews. And then McHenough drafted Kail McCarr, Rasmus Dahlene, Artemi Panera, and Leon Dreisidal, Matthew Kuch, and UC Soros. So as of games completed on January 14th, I am in the lead with 255 points. We did points for players and then wins for goalies counted as one point, right, Sean? Is that how you counted these? Correct. Max is in second place with 248 points.

DGB is in third place with 238 points. And quote, someone else is in last with 224 points. That would be Sean Gentile's roster. Let me just say, though, if Austin Matthews and Caprisoff hadn't gotten hurt, I would be absolutely running away with this. Well, if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bike. Jesus. What are you going to do?

I've had some bad luck too, man. Yeah, if who's on Sean's team again? McDavid. If Romney, he had a better start, yeah. Should have took Lane Hudson. If David, we're not relitigating Lane Hudson. So this is what we wanted to do is like, look at these rosters, what were some of the wins, what were the good draft picks, and like, what were some of the mistakes that we made?

And I think when we were prepping for the show, Sean and I had that. kind of conversation of like we can't go fully into hindsight 2020 like because who was going to say I'm going to draft lane Hudson over Josh Morrissey or Adam Fox nobody nobody maybe Corey Prondman uh no not not core either we can start with we can start with my biggest mistake yeah Sean what did you mess up with your roster posse knocking round two is killing me um didn't think he would because you went Posternak Yossi around the snake

too. Yeah. So I last pick around two is me. It was Posternak. I didn't necessarily think that Elias Lindelam was going to be a true first line center.

A plus running mate for Pasta, but I also didn't anticipate him essentially getting demoted from that job, you know, before whatever mid-November or however long it's been so the fact that Pasernak has still struggled to you know he doesn't have his center who's worthy of his talent basically on that roster I assume that Lindoam would have come relatively close and also Pavel Zaka's step back he's a guy who gets a lot of

minutes with it with Pasternak too um it just hasn't it just hasn't been there and if And if you have a winger who, in hindsight, I would have taken, I would have gone with somebody who I was more certain at the winger position. I would have gone with somebody who I knew had an A1 facilitator setting him up. And that clearly, that clearly wasn't the move for me. Robertson's not working out that great for you either, too. He's having a good year, but it's not been like a special. Yeah. And he's been a little bit better of late too.

That was just an abysmal start. Like, given the way he, given the way he started, man, I was. I stop paying attention to the standings here relatively early because, you know, you just can't have, you can't have wingers being under a point per game in this, in a format like this. And he has been. And he's still, he's still way, way, way below it too. So yeah, I'm taking it. I'm taking it in the teeth with the, with the left wing, the left wing, right wing positions. And there's just jerking wins, right?

Like, that's the, actually, the more I look at this, that's what's killing you is you're getting no wins. I'm getting killed on a bunch of different fronts. Like, Roman Yose's been great of late, but he started slowly to, like, he's been actually kind of fantastic for the last month or so. As a defense, as an all-around player, Roman Yose has been good. He hasn't been the problem with Nashville. But, you know, he's another one. He takes a hit because, you know, the context around him just hasn't been, hasn't been great.

So, yeah, Rangers collapse. Posternak not having a center. and then Jason Robertson just kind of getting off to a slow start has me has me pretty well cooked here. And I think we all kind of whiffed on our goalie selections. Like I definitely went all diehard boilers with my Bouchard and Skinner picks. I mean, Bouchard hasn't been terrible, but this is not the Bouchard of last year. And Stu Skinner had a pretty horrible start again this year. 17 wins, though, still better than both Sean's starting goalies are doing.

McAdoe took Sauros. He has nine wins on the season. None of us took Connor Hallibuck, who was 27 wins. Jake Onger is the best of the four that were drafted with 22 wins. Nobody took Jacob Markstrom, 21 wins. Nobody took Bobrovsky, the Stanley Cup winning goalie, who people thought should have won the Kansmyth last year if it didn't go to McDavid.

Because who else was it going to go to on the Panthers? I think Barkoff. I think Barcov. I think I was Team Bobrovsky, but I also didn't care. I just didn't think it should have gone to McDavid. Anyways, nobody took Andre Vasselowski either. So I think we all kind of... I think all the goalie choices were understandable to a certain extent.

Those are the ones... Mine was stupid. No, no, no, no. Mine looks bad because I was like, I could take Connor Hellebuck, but I'm going to take Stuart Skinner, and that was really dumb. And then I think if we look at the winger conversation,

I remember on the show, we all had a pretty beefy chat about, like, should someone have taken Mitch Mark? And I think we all were like, he's going to produce, but I still don't want to. And Mitch Marner has 60 points. He's fifth and scoring. Clearly, I should have. Like, that's, that's where I made some, could have made some ground up for sure.

We're we all trying to dare Macandoo to do it because it was like, like, he's a fan, right? He's a fan of Marner. So it's like, are you going to double your sadness or something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, well, I did. Well, I didn't take, Marner wasn't on the table for me because I took Ranton and I still stand by that.

I think the reason, I don't think, I know. The reason why my team is not in shambles is because I have McKinnon and Rantan in two of the top four scoring players in the league. But my defense picks were not great and my goalie is just fine. I'm annoyed at the season that Rantan's having. He's scoring a ton of goals. He's in the Rocket Richard Hunt. This is what I predicted from him last season when ahead of the, ahead of the regular season and our little, all staff surveys. I think I was the only one to pick Miko Ranton and. And then you abandoned him this year? He had a good season, but he's certainly not on par with what we've seen from him so far.

But he was off the table before your pastor not picked because I took him in the second round. I'm just annoyed. I'm just annoyed that he's that I'm not reaping. I was a year early. And it hurts. On both of those two guys, we ignored the contract year surge. True.

they both had. Like, that's what we should have been thinking the whole way. It's like, these guys know they need to get paid in a year. Yeah. And Marner both should have been on somebody's roster on that alone based on, you know, and of course their pedigree, but that's what it should have separated them. Right. I think the defense is interesting because like we said with the Lane Hudson conversation,

like some of the blue line. Like, I don't know if on paper we flash back anyone made any egregious mistakes with the blue line. But it is interesting to see like Zach Wrenski is the highest. scoring D right now. He's tied with Kail McCarra, so Macar is still a great selection. Quinn Hughes, Josh Morris, here, up there. Nobody took

Shea Theodore, nobody took Lane Hudson. My Adam Fox pick, he's eighth, and Bouchard is 10th, so my D.D. is not great. Dahlene's pretty low. Is there anyone in there that you are kicking yourself over not selecting?

I think Werenzky was someone we discussed as like a short list, guy. Like he just didn't. We all had him on the list, but it just didn't happen. It was reasonable to not say. He's seven points from his career high. It's January 50.

He's got to have his career high in points by February. My concerns with Werenski then and really, you know, how are many seasons before that health? Because he's always, whether it's serious, he's had seasons where he's, where he's had serious stuff happen. He's had seasons that have just been kind of snake bit by a couple more minor things. You know, he's been healthy. That's one thing.

The other thing is I was just worried about the environment because like their power play last year, even last year was bad. And that's how that's how you're going to see. D-Men obviously rack up a ton of points is if you can roll them out there with an elite power play. They were not that last year. And I just didn't anticipate the didn't anticipate the Sean Monaghan effect on the on the power play there, man. Because that, because that unit's been really good. And it's led to some, yeah, some pretty, some pretty important. impressive production, not just, not just for, for Werensky either. You're talking about, you know,

Marchenko and Monaghan's been great. Yeah. Seeing a lot from a lot of, from a lot of different spots there. That's a, that's a pretty, that's a, that's a pretty good team. That's a representative NHL team. And I was too focused on Werenski being, you know, the best player by a country mile and not having enough help and stopping the kiss. I'll say this. I don't know that I have any regrets with my team. I'm just really grateful for how smart I will. was to know that Kirill Caprizov was going to have the year that he was going to have. You said it from the part, didn't you? I'm great value for Carol Caprizo here.

He said I'm so excited to take Curl Caprizov. I didn't want left winger Matthew Kachuk. I think what was going through my head at that time is if I, if I was. You had a plan mapped out and we like spoiled it. I had a plan mapped out. And I also like, I'm so Kachuk-pilled. Like I would just want them on any. real or fake team I was ever making

one or both of them. John Club, brother. Yeah, it was, it was basically I was blinded by I wanted to be able to say, yeah, I got I got a Chuck, I got Matthew. Yeah. But I overlooked that, of course, Capriza.

I was probably gonna, well, maybe not to this three. This has been pretty incredible. But I probably should have just picked him for the points anyway, given that's what our metric is. Yeah. I don't think there was any misses on Max's team. It's really just the injuries that have been the problem.

Like, You got the ass big boys, baby I do, not Max. That's what he's saying. You have the ads. That's the difference. It's like you got, you got. Oh, yeah.

Those guys are just horses. Oh, I know. Is there a center I could have taken? Wasn't Matthew's my last pick? Is there a center here that I credibly could have taken? Instead, they're like Jack Hughes. Did Jack Hughes get picked? I liked here.

Like, who did we whiff on? So the other people who didn't get taken, the next best center that didn't get selected would have been Jack Eichel. Braden Point. I think I did consider Braden Point. He's having a really good year. And I don't think anyone really considered Eichel. And maybe we should have because he's been like the guy that Vegas needs him to be over a point per game player. And he's just the star there. Nobody took Kyle Connor. Yeah. But I had personal beef with him. He was on my fantasy team and he was very good for a while and then like fell apart. And then so did my team. So I. I poop listed him. Here's a question.

If, and you guys might have to... No Sam Ryan Hart either. After the season he had was maybe a little surprising. That's probably... If Vegas holds the president's trophy. Yeah. Where does Jack Eichael fit on a heart ballot? Right now.

Yeah. I think he's, I think he ends up being top three. Top five. Because there's, there's some, like, incredible... If they win the president's trophy, he's not in your top three. If he's the reason they win a president. president's trophy? I think it depends.

I think about all the things that like can can all happen at the same time and how you would judge us, right? Columbus gets into the playoffs, right? Werensky has to be a consideration. The Wild are a, you know, top two team in the central. Caprizov has to be in there. The Jets potentially win the central. Hellebuck has to be in the top three.

Right. But those are just winning divisions. It's McKinnon too. McKinnon. And the title. Drysson. This is a crazy race. It's a fun race.

It's a fun race. It's a fun race. It has 31 goals. Yeah. In 43 games. Somewhere. Somewhere in Ottawa, Sean McIndood

smiles to himself and he doesn't know why. You're, it's a good, it's an interesting question, Max. I think it just depends like, how much are you weighing where the team finished, right? Like if we're,

if, if they win the president's trophy and Eichel, has because how much does the next best teammate have on Vegas right now? It's not close. It's not close. Shouldn't that make it shouldn't that make Eichol's value? Yeah, 54 points the next best is Mark Stone with 39.

Projected to have 102 points right now. He's playing like if Jack Eichael, if Jack Eichael has a hundred point season in Vegas, in Vegas wins the presence trophy. I think he has to be a top three contender. I, like, I'm sorry, like what Columbus is doing is great. But like if you win the president's trophy and then we're comparing that to everyone else just winning their division or being a contender within their division or just making the playoffs, that is not the same as Jack Eichael lifting them to a president's trophy after an off season in which most of us talked about the Vegas Golden Knights taking a massive step back. Isn't Zach Werenski on pace for like 100 points too or very close to it? We talked about him.

Sean and Frankie and I talked about him today is like Norris and probably heart. Like we like the defenseman thing that's a whole that's a whole other conversation but like if ever because by the way like this is this is what John said not only has no defenseman won since since Chris Pronger no defenseman has been a finalist since Chris Pronger and that's a gazillion years ago and I can make a case for Wernsey and Quinn Hughes. Quinn Hughes too those are the guys those are the guys who that discussion send around it's going to be fun I'm very rarely interested in hard here and I'm rarely interested in Hart trophy rates races, but I find myself in that spot this season for sure. Are you, I just, yeah, I feel like Eichel has to be. Yeah, he's there. If he ends up with 100 points and they win the presence trophy, he'll be there.

He'll deserve it. He's a legit candidate. I wasn't trying to knock it. I was just saying like it's a crazy. Sounds like you were. I just say it's crazy to figure out who you leaving, who you leave? Haley's having an argument with an imaginary person right now because me and Max Bell, like, yes, we love Jack Eichel.

And I'm just angry. finalist. You're like, well, like, he has to be. Well, we were saying he will be. Yes. I think he should be, but it's crazy to think of who would get left off, like, of all these amazing seasons. Like, this is not one. I wonder if people knock. I wonder if

McKinnon gets knocked for Rantan and having such a good season. Like, it's one of those like, oh, well, is he really an MVP if the both of you are really good? I'm not saying that. I just wonder if that's a conversation point, especially when we think of like voter fatigue. Like, oh, well, McKinnon won

last year. Like, this can be the year where I bump him down from two to five or whatever, even though he's on pace to win the art Ross. Anti-goly for Hart. I am. I'm pro. They, by definition, have more value than all skaters. So just give it to one every year.

They have their award. I pulled a classic Sean Gentilly line on our CBC show last week. The New York goalie was playing very well. and there was a conversation on our panel about like, well, don't you think, don't you think they need to start playing a little better? Like if Corrine, like, something about, it was something about like, oh, well,

if Corrine Schroeder wasn't back there, like, this is a totally different game. And I was like, guys, she is. And guess what? Corrine Schroder's on the team. And that's okay. And I was like, oh, this is just like a Sean Athletic hockey show, CBC segment.

I was like, let's not knock them for having. And I'm sure you credited me on, Absolutely not. Canadian national television. This second. Now you really sound like me. It's just Canadian TV. No, I was going to say something very mean,

being like nobody would know who you were. But then I decided not to. Never mind. Anyways, goodbye, everybody. Anyways, I'm winning that. That was so rude. I'm winning the draft. now. I'm sure if Max's team stays healthy, he'll end up winning and it'll be Sean and

Sean battling it out for last. Oh, I think I have that one locked up. Cooked. Yeah, that's not quite close. All right. Well, thanks, Max. It was nice to see you. Yeah, good to be back. Miss you guys. You could join us anytime. But if you guys like Max, I'm saying, what did you say, Sean? Doesn't want to. Yeah. Well, I'm just trying to make, like not anytime. I'm just trying to make him say it. Don't lie. If everyone listening wants to hear more from Max,

you can hear him on Friday with Corey Prom as they dissect the top NHL players and prospects under 23. Thanks everyone for listening to The Athletic Hockey Show. Sean and I will return next Thursday without Max. Goodbye.