The Athletic Hockey Show - World Junior Summer Showcase and the Hilinka Gretzky Cup

Episode Date: August 5, 2023

On this edition of the Prospect Series, Max Bultman from the Athletic and Chris Peters of Flo Hockey report from the World Junior summer showcase in Plymouth. The boys take a closer look at how Team USA's roster might shape out including the unprecedented deep depth at forward including Will Smith, Jimmy Snuggerud, Frank Nazar, Isaac Howard, Cutter Gauthier and Cole Eiserman.Corey joins Max from the Hilinka Gretzky cup ahead of the gold medal game between Canada and Czechia, and provides an update most notably Canada's performance in the tournament.Save on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshowGo to grammarly.com/go to download and learn more about GrammarlyGO Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman and Chris Peters here for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show's Prospect Series. Corey Pramman's going to join us a little bit later from the Halinka Gretzky Tournament. But Chris and I are going to dive in here. We've been at the World Junior Summer Showcase in Plymouth all week. And it's been a really interesting tournament. Team USA, Chris, I think this is one of the more interesting pools of players they've had in a while,

especially up front at Forward. And I think this camp obviously goes a long way toward what will eventually be the cuts, eventually be the final team, although we're still a few months away from that. But starting, I think, to see a little bit of separation here after three of the four games are in the books at the time that we're recording. Yeah, no question. I mean, I think this is probably one of the deepest forward groups that we've seen at a camp like this. I mean, it's going to make some really difficult decisions.

And there's going to be some really good players that don't make this team. And it's, you know, through no fault of their own, it's just a really deep year. And, you know, I think some guys are going to prove more than others that they belong. But, you know, the interesting thing is before the camp comes down, you know, Logan Cooley signs with Arizona, it kind of creates an opening. But then you look here and you're saying, okay, well, you know, Cutter Goce could be a center. Will Smith could be the number one center. I mean, there's a lot of different guys that have kind of stepped up into roles. And so that's made it really fun to watch.

You know, I mean, it's a bit of a different story on defense, but at forward, you know, I don't know if there's ever been this many gifted goal scores in a single camp when you think about guys like Jimmy Snuggarood and Cutter Goce and, you know, even the underagers like Cole Iserman, you know, guys that know how to put the puck in the net. And yeah, I mean, this is going to be an interesting challenge for David Carlin and his group just to find the right balance up front and to make sure they have, you know, guys that can do a little. little bit of everything. But, you know, the one thing that David did tell me is, you know, you can really never have enough goals. And this U.S. team is certainly going to have a lot of that. It is crazy when you put it that way about Kula. I think that became official on the first day of camp, if I'm not mistaken, it could have been the second, but I think it was the first day of camp that he's officially signed with Arizona. And it's not that you completely forget about it because he was probably the tournament MVP favorite at the time that he signed. And it's still not

out of the question, I suppose, that if, you know, if he, if he, if he were, you know, to have a slow start in the NHL or spend any time in the American League, he could go to this tournament. Maybe all kinds of extenuating circumstances can lead to that. But they were able to turn the page pretty quickly because of that depth. And I think you saw at the beginning of camp, you saw what seemed to me like a placeholder on the lines in between Cutter-Gote and Jimmy Snuggarood. And then you saw a Gotei shift to the middle for a little bit.

And then yesterday, on Wednesday, I thought you saw what maybe is kind of the, what I would assume is kind of the favorite. it for what the look will be. And that was Will Smith between those two, and it looked pretty good. Yeah, it did, it did look good. You know, it's, if that's the interesting dynamic, you know, you already know that Will Smith play so well with, with Ryan Leonard and Gabe Perot, but, you know, you see them between Snuggierood and Gochay, which is basically the Logan Cooley spot from last season. And it was pretty dynamic. It was pretty difficult to stop. You know, they kind of let that line get a little bit more of a break later in the game because they probably saw enough

and wanted to get some other guys that are in the mix. But, you know, I think that this was a really good look at the possibilities that exist for this team, which I think is an important thing for Team USA to see what will work. And that's a big reason what they've used this camp for is to see what those guys are capable of. And yeah, I mean, it's been an interesting kind of dynamic because they have so many offensively talented players. And, you know, they really are going to need to find some guys that that are going to be able to be more of that shutdown style and give them some of that. But I think that they want guys that can do both.

They want guys that are going to be good offensive players on top of being responsible defensively. And I think they have enough guys to do that in this particular camp. So it's been interesting to watch the different mixing and matching going on. But the chemistry among players here with so many guys that did go through the NTP. And then even the way that some of the other guys from outside are kind of getting into the fold and gaining chemistry with these guys. I mean, it just speaks to the amount of talent that's here. Yeah, absolutely. I think when you talk about the most like-for-like comparison to Logan Cooley, the more this tournament goes on,

I think it actually might be a player who I did not, frankly, really have seriously in the mix. for this team a week ago when it began. But James Hagen's has really impressed me so far with obviously that skating is dynamic, the skill and sense are there. But he, even though he will not be draft eligible until 2025, has not backed down at all. He is right in things that compete very impressive to me for a player that's skilled and that young so far.

Yeah, he's definitely putting himself in the discussion. You know, this is a team that's going to be able to bring, you know, they'll probably have 13, maybe even 14 forwards the way, you know, with some of the decisions they have to make on defense. But, you know, you want to have as many options as you can. And as a facilitator, there are a few better than James Hagan so far. He's a really skilled player. He's a really, he's a really good, you know, driver of play. He gets behind the defense. He makes, you know, good skill plays. And even though he is the youngest player in camp, you see the maturity in his game. And, you know, this is a guy that's going to compete with Michael Mesa for the number one pick,

I think. And, you know, I got a text yesterday from a scout saying, gosh, I'm seeing a lot of Jack Hughes in this James Higgins. You know, and this is, you know, some of these guys that are at this camp are guys that aren't scouting the amateurs as much. A lot of pro scouts are here, but, you know, they start seeing these guys. And I think a lot of guys are taking notes on James Higgins with the way that he's played here and how mature he's looked. And he's really dedicated himself to getting stronger physically because he's not a big guy, but he is definitely, you know, one of the most, you know, talented players, I think that you have here. And understanding that he's one of the youngest guys, you just only wonder where that's going to go from here. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah,

obviously, you're not going to replace the number three overall pick lightly, but I do think if there's a, if there's a year to have this happen, you know, and Canada goes through this every year, right? This is kind of the, this is, this is what it is when you finally start producing these, these top players. A couple more forwards I want to talk about here. Frank Naser and Isaac Howard, I think, have really picked right up here. And Naser had the big day, the four-goal game on Monday. That was kind of Team USA's revenge day after a couple of kind of disappointing losses to begin it. But Naser's been really good. And Isaac Howard, I think, has really made a statement through three games.

And I think he's probably put himself on the right side of the bubble here if he's even on the bubble anymore, Chris. Yeah, you know, I think it's, first of all, it's great to see that Frank Nazar is healthy. It's good to see him back, you know, back at full speed. I think when he came back last year at Michigan, he came back at one of the toughest times in the year because it was playoff race. You know, he came back in February, things are ramping up. And it's the pace is different. and he was just playing his first games. And so you didn't get to necessarily see what he's fully capable of.

Now you see him here, and he had a five-point game and just an incredible, just an incredible opportunity for him to just showcase, hey, I'm back. And, you know, Rucker McGarty was telling me, he said, you know, Frankie's back, baby. And that was big for the guys because they know what he's capable of as well. And so that's going to be the interesting thing, though, because, you know, the center, the center race here is pretty packed. You know, you think about Smith, Hagan's, this Goce play center. You know, Charlie Stramel likely on the team is his center, you know, so where exactly does he fit, you know, and that's going to be interesting. But also to your point, with the chemistry between him and Isaac Howard, you know, those two guys just clicked.

They've played together before. They've been, you know, definitely a dynamic duo in the past. I think they just understand where each other is going to be. And that's good for Isaac Howard as well because this is a guy that was not in the mix last year because of his first half really going south and really didn't have a good season. Now he's transferred to Michigan State. You know, it's still going to be an uphill battle because there's so many good wingers in this camp as well. But he's got, you know, he's put himself in the mix because of how well he's played with Nazar.

And I think the team wants to look at guys that are, you're going to have some of that built-in chemistry. In this camp, they're not necessarily looking at that as much as they are trying to find different combinations that can work. But when you see two guys clicking the way that those two are, you have to feel really happy about it. Yeah, it has been interesting to watch them play with these kind of pre-existing combinations, right? You know, Go-Chane Snuggaroot are going to play together. You know, obviously Howard and Nazar. We've obviously seen the chemistry of the big line from last year's program with Will Smith, Ryan Leonard, and Gabe Perot. they've kind of split those guys up.

I think they're kind of getting a look at them away from each other. And we talked about how immediately it seemed to click with Will Smith between Gote and Snuggaroo. I also thought Ryan Leonard has been pretty good away from his usual running mates. And Gabe Perrault, I thought, had his best game on Wednesday with a really nice assist and a nice goal. And so I think he's kind of fined in a way. And Smith obviously seems maybe more of a lock to play at the top of the lineup as things stand. but I think Leonard has not really taken any kind of backseat. So if anyone was suspecting that he might be a passenger where he was,

I think the power game and the goal scoring is still held up for me, at least, really well through three games. Yeah, you know, I agree completely, Max. I think Ryan Leonard has been awesome throughout the entire camp. I mean, you know, yesterday they played their inner squad game, and he skated right through Eric Polkamp, who's actually a pretty sturdy defender. He's not a big guy, but he's a sturdy defender, physical guy.

And Ryan Leonard actually took him off his feet with the puck on his stick. You know, like with Ryan Leonard had the puck on his stick. And that was, you know, that was a loud moment. But I think the other thing is that Leonard is creating so many scoring chances. He's such a good shooter. You know, watching even in practices, he stands out because he's just got the same work ethic and the same level of play throughout that as well. And so I think that he's really put himself in a position. to play an upper lineup, you know, top six role.

They put him with a bunch of different guys, you know, in this camp, and he always seems to thrive. So that's a great place for him to be. And then, you know, I think, as you mentioned, you know, Gay-Piro, Will Smith and Ryan Leonard, we fully expect those guys to be a line at Boston College. I mean, there's always the potential that, you know, somebody gets with Goce or, you know, something that happens there, you know, you never know. But BC has a lot of options for what to do with those. guys. But yeah, you know, the fact that they take Ryan Leonard away from from those two

brilliant playmakers. And now we get a chance to see how he operates without him. I mean, I've been so impressed with his game. I knew, you know, going in that his game has really taken off in the last couple of years, the last couple of months to it. He's taking it to a new level. And I think that we're only seeing that as continuation here at the summer showcase. Yeah, absolutely. So forwardes, I mean, I think they're going to have some really, really, tough decisions in a really good way coming up, right? And we'll get to what the situation is like on defense in a minute. Suffice to say, it will be tougher in a less encouraging way, I think. But the guy who I think needed to be really good at this camp, and at least for me, has held

serve as Lane Hudson. I think he looks every bit as dynamic as this USA team is going to need him to be. He scored probably the goal of the tournament on Monday, walking, axing, standing Pelica from behind the net somehow it was like a magic trick like an old pebble datsuke play or something he he frees himself up from being behind the net with a defender there to a beautiful goal uh right on the doorstep uh it was pretty special to watch it was and yeah i mean you know basically i think both of the defensemen there were trying to respect his passing ability forgetting that he just can slither in and and you know it's it's it's amazing like you know that the guys the guys guys on his under 18 team had always called him sneaky. And gosh, is that ever the case? I mean, he is so

slippery. He is able to get through. You know, in this tournament, he's a step of, he's, he's just a cut above, maybe not even just the defenseman, but maybe even some of the four, or a lot of the forwards as well. I mean, I think that there's, there are few players like him in the world. I don't think I've ever seen a defenseman play quite like him with his skill level. You know, I think you look at like the guys that he grew up watching and it's like Johnny Udrow and Patrick Kane and you see more of them in him than you do any real defenseman. You know, I know some people have tried to say to Quinn Hughes and it's just like, no, I don't think so. You know, they're different. But the other thing that I think we've seen from Lane is, you know, there was a lot made about how much he's grown in physically, even though he's still not a big guy.

And he has, you know, like I'm, he's, he's definitely grown since I've been covering. him, which is good to see. And, you know, obviously that helps his case. But the fact that he's just so slippery and so dynamic and can score goals and can set up plays. And I mean, it's been automatic for him here. And, you know, he's going to play a lot of minutes for this team when the tournament happens. Yeah, we talked about kind of that disappointing first day for the U.S. But in his game on day one, I think he was on USA White, if I remember right, it seemed like he, if they were going to any offense in that game, it was going to start with him. I think that was the day he made the really nice play, brought it in off the rush, kind of wheeled around the net and hit

McGrady in the slot for a goal. I think McRourty's been good, too. I guess we should note this week. But he was the guy that they would look to for, you know, to just create some offense out of, you know, whatever they had. And he was able to do it. Obviously, his inclinations are more on that side of the puck. But to your point, I think the, I think you are seeing he can hold his own in a two-eight. He's going to have to. I think he's going to have to play a huge role overall for this team. Yeah, no question about it. I mean, you know, and that thing is how many minutes, you know, do you want to play them? You know, how much, how much is the right amount? And then also understanding that, you know, you just, you lack the

depth. And there's a lot of there, if there's one thing they're not lacking in, it's undersized puck moving defensemen, they've got plenty of those guys that can do it and, and can do it at a high level. I just don't think you can have an entire decor of that kind of player. But if you have Lane Hudson, you're real happy you have Lane Hudson because he is an absolute dynamo. And, man, I mean, quite frankly, Max, I think he looks even better than he did last year, you know, even in the midst of how good he was at BU.

I mean, I think we're, we could be seeing a pretty spectacular season from a Cleese. the defenseman here out of Lane Hudson. Let's pause on that. We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back, and we'll talk about the defense score as a whole. All right, Chris, let's pick it back up talking about this defense score. We've just talked about Lane Hudson and how good he's been. I think you could certainly put Seamus Casey in that same bucket,

a guy who is going to be counted on in a big way. I think he's looked really good. He is another one who laid a loud open ice hit earlier this week, which I think was really good to see. I think Ryan Chesley, who has been kind of stapled to Lane Hudson so far, that definitely looks like it will be Team USA's top pair has been good. They sat all three of those guys down, though, on Wednesday. And kind of the message I took away from that was we really need to see,

we know you three are in and playing big roles. Obviously, they won't make those decisions finally until right before the tournament. But that's the subtext for me, at least. We really need to look at the broader group here and see who else we can count on to bring to this tournament. Yeah, so that's definitely what that definitely was the case in terms of, you know, these are the guys that are going to be on the team more, you know, almost certainly and barring any injury or anything like that. And they really wanted to get a look at all of the other defensemen.

And I think, you know, what we saw was, you know, kind of more of the same of what we've seen here is that this is not a position of strength for the team USA. This is not going to be a position that is going to have, you know, you don't, you're going to, You're going to have to manufacture some balance in terms of size, in terms of defensive ability. You've got a lot of options available to you. The question is, is just what is the right mix to be competitive with the best teams in this tournament? You already have a great forward group. You want to certainly have a puck moving element that's going to be able to get the puck's up to those guys. But what are you going to have defensively?

Are you going to be big enough in this tournament? We would expect Canada had of a big team. Sweden is going to have a big team. Sweden's going to have a lot of big forwards and big defensemen. So you need to combat some of that with some size. You can't just expect to go in and just outskill everybody at this event because in those toughest games, it just doesn't happen that way. So I think that this is going to be a challenge for the team.

I think that they're going to have to look outside of the camp as well and continue to track guys. They might have to look at underage defensemen as well, like guys on the U-18 team that have some size and defensive capabilities. Are they mature enough to be part of this group? You know, those are the kind of things that they're going to have to discuss behind closed doors to find the right mix. But, you know, you look, the bigger defensive they brought in, you know, have been a little bit up and down. You know, Sam Renzell had a really good start to camp.

He was really struggled in the inter squad game, and he's the biggest defenseman here. You know, so that's the kind of decisions they're going to have to make. you know, what can you live with and who are going to be the guys are going to play the biggest minutes for you. But you're exactly right. I mean, you know, Lane Hudson, Ryan Chesley, Seamus Casey, you know, they know what those guys are and they've got a spot. You know, now they have to find who's going to fill out the rest of it. And I really do think, you know, that there's four open spots on this blue line right now. Your point about Sweden is such a good one because when you think about what they can bring,

or I guess, you know, have home with them in Gothenburg, You're potentially talking about Leo Carlson, Philip Bistet, and David Edstrom as your top three centers. Or if you flex one of them to the wing, you know, you could move Anton Wahlberg up there too, right? Like this is going to be a powerful, you know, Swedish center group with really good size and offense. And I think they're going to be a handful to contain. And when you talk about the missing length, you know, Chesley's got a little bit of it. And so that'll help. but the guys who have stood out the most for me,

I agree with you that Renzell had a good start and then has kind of tapered off. You know, I mean, it's all relative. It's pretty short tournament. But are also on the smaller side, you know, I've liked Polkamp. I've liked Zev Bouem. Paul Fisher, I think, has a little more of the length. But those are probably the three guys who, for me, have popped the most other than that top group. And two of those three are also kind of smaller puck-moving types, although Pole Camp, like you said, does have a little

more that physical element. Who have kind of been your, the ones, you know, this, I agree with you. I think this is going to go into December. The seasons that these guys have are probably going to play a bigger role than maybe you might hope if you're trying to pencil some of this stuff in. But who have been your standouts on D so far, or at least your favorites of the rest of that group? Yeah, you know, it's kind of very game to game because I think there's been a little bit of inconsistency. I think there are certain guys that are still adjusting to the pace. I think the first game against Sweden looked like an all-world team, and they didn't even have Leo Carlson here. But what I would say is, you know, I think guys that have really helped themselves and made a case for themselves, you know, some of the guys that you mentioned, I think Eric Polkamp, who is a bit on the undersized side, but is abrasive and plays a physical game and is not, doesn't back down.

He has definitely helped himself here. I think he's played a physical brand of hockey. And that has allowed him to kind of stand out. one of the guys that really stood out in the inter squad game, I made so many notes about him, was Hunter Bristewicz, who's probably one of the best skaters among the defensemen that are, you know, in the mix. You know, certainly guys like Casey and Hudson are really good skaters, too. But I think Ristavich showed that he was really aware he was able to close plays.

You know, and I said that he's been up and down, but I think when you look at San Renzel, his skating ability, his size, and I think that he's added some strength in the last year here, he's he's a guy that that I think you know he has to step up because they need somebody like him and if it's not going to be him they're going to have to look from somewhere outside of the camp because I don't think that they necessarily had the other bigger defensemen the guys that are six two or taller which there are very few of in this camp and this is just the way that it's dictated by the it's just the way it's dictated by the player pool basically you know they they're going to have to

find ways to manufacture some heaviness on their back end. I think Z. Bouillon is a really interesting player. He's a younger player. He's a late birth date in the 05 birth year and draft eligible this year. I've liked the way that he's played in camp. I think he can be a power play guy if you want that. But, you know, I think if there was anything, any position where we started to see separation between the haves and the half-nots in this tournament or in this player pool,

I think it's been most evident on defense. But, you know, I think that those guys have been good. And then you see little flashes. You see like a guy like Charlie Letty, who's a defense first guy, Paul Fisher. You know, these are players that are more defensive-minded and you need those kinds of players. It's just a matter of, you know, which of those guys has the right identity and the right Knicks for this team. I think in most of those cases, if you say, well, it's between, you know, if you're looking at a Charlie Letty or a Paul Fisher, you might go with the age and experience of a Charlie Letty, who's been at the under 18 level.

He's not going to give you a ton of points, but he's going to give you good shifts. He's going to play steady defense. Those are the decisions that are going to have to be made on the blue line. And they're not easy. They're certainly not easy. I'll tell you with Renzel, I agree with you. I think he's one of the guys that I was watching right from the outset of like they need this guy because he has the size. He's got the, I think, the skating to, I think, really be a difference maker defending the rush for them,

which they're going to need, and defending Inzone for that matter, too. The trips to the penalty box is the thing that scared me the most because I think there has been a lot of good. I think you see them uploading. I think he's walked the line pretty well too. But I don't know how many penalties he has. It has to be at least five in three games. Yeah, it's been too much for sure.

I mean, you know, and the stick penalties are the ones that you don't want to see your big defenseman taking. You want to see, you know, maybe you can live with the odd boarding call or something like that. But these have mostly been stick penalties. I think that just the pace of the game is so different from what he's played so far in his career. And so there's going to be an adjustment period at the college level as well because the things that you can do with the space that you have in junior or in high school are not going to be there in college or especially not at the world juniors. We saw.

And so basically you've got to try to coax the what's the best of his game. game out of him and you have to try to limit the things that have been struggling. And I think puck management, especially in the inter squad game, which was one of the fastest pace games that we've seen in terms of, you know, when it's USA, USA, and they really tried to balance the teams out. And even though the scoreline was lopsided, I thought that the other team had a lot of scoring chances. But, you know, I think he was doing a little too much with kind of trying to spin away from contact and trying to, you know, the plays just don't develop, they develop too fast for that. But the thing is

that the tools are absolutely there. Like you see all the things that, the reason the Blackhawks drafted him in the first round, and they knew he was going to be a long-term project. And I think he's maybe a little bit ahead of schedule of where I thought he would be by this point. But does that make him a world junior

level player? That's the question. So, and that's the thing. The World Juniors is not about what you can do. It's about what you're doing right now. It is not about your potential or upside or anything like that. which is why I say there are going to be some really good players that are left off this roster. But, you know, I think if I'm making the team today and I'm making it based on the team that I have in camp,

I probably am still taking him and understanding that the penalties and the decision making will hopefully, you know, there's some improvement over time at the college season. Yeah, absolutely. And I think my next question for you on this is when we talk about, about the strength of the forward group and the kind of thinness on D, does the makeup on D affect at all how you would pick those final kind of bubble spots at forward? When you talk about, you know, we know Team USA is going to want to get a couple of really good solid dependable penalty killers on this roster, for example. That's an every year thing. But when you look at

kind of like a Danny Nelson, a Cole Canoble guys who I think bring you a lot of defensive value, does that even just boost their stock a bit more for those final spots? Even you, I I think Oliver Moore has a good case anyway, but maybe that you could even say that of him, too, he's been a guy who's had a heavy penalty kill role. And I think the speed obviously gives him huge defensive value. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I think the interesting thing about this group is that some of your best players are actually pretty good penalty killers, too. Gavin Gronley and Charlie Stramel and, you know, like you could even have Ryan Leonard or, you know, you can have Oliver Moore if he's, you know, he still has to make the team.

but, you know, I think that there's a lot of guys in this mix that can do that. It's funny that you bring up Danny Nelson because Danny Nelson played a bunch of his career as a defenseman. He's only been a forward for a couple of years here, and I had a scout asked me, not quite jokingly, if maybe he could switch back to D for this tournament, just to get USA some size back there. I don't think that's a realistic possibility. Playing D at the world junior level is a lot different. than, you know, what he had last played D at the high school level or the youth hockey level.

But, you know, but I think that that's to the point is that, you know, guys like that, you want to make sure if you're not going to have the size on the back end, then you do have it up front. And that gives guys like a Danny Nelson, like Gavin Hayes, who I thought has been pretty good here and has played a heavy game. You know, you look at Quentin Mustie, I thought, had one of his best days yesterday. You know, so you say, okay, well, can we build the bottom of our forward lineup a little bit bigger, you know, to make up for some of the lack of size on D? Can we make sure that our forwards and our centers are really gifted defensively?

You know, and I think that's that's the hope. But they, you know, they have centers that are good two-way guys, but they also have a lot of centers that are, you know, they want the puck and they want it going the other way. So, yeah, it's, you're exactly right, Max. I think in those last, those, the decisions on defense do ultimately impact your decision. decisions at forward, you know, just to make sure that you have the right balance in your team. It's going to be really interesting. I agree with you about Hayes. I think he's popped. I think he has the heaviness to his game. And I think he's managed to do what is always kind of the toughest thing to do for guys competing for those roles, which is he has helped drive offense too while bringing

kind of those non-offensive elements. Like he stood out for the non-offense while still adding in the offensive zone. He helped set up the, I think it was the Z. Steve Booiam goal yesterday where he kind of won a battle down low in the corners and kind of sprang the puck to Jay, to Gabe Perrault who set up Booiam. And I think when you start to see that, that's what really, I think, starts to kind of boost your candidacy because you're showing, hey, it's not just that I can check. It's that I might be able to win some of these battles for you, too, on the scoreboard. That's really stood out to me. I just wonder, you know, they're going to get into a spot here where someone, you know, you talk about someone really good is going to not make this team up front.

And I wonder, can you bring both of a Gavin Hayes and a, like a Cole Canoebill, or I think Danny Nelson looks good enough and has the center factor that maybe that elevates him. But how do you kind of parse what, what look like kind of the fringe of the bubble here? Who's, who's in your bottom three or four spots there? Yeah, it's tough. I think it's pretty tough to say, I think, you know, like a guy like Danny Nelson, absolutely is put himself in a position here. You mentioned Cole Canoble. He's, he's had a really good camp. It's just a matter of, do you have the spot? You know, I think Hayes and Mustie have kind of been the

two guys I've watched as, you know, it could be one or the other. And I think if you were to go off of this camp, it would be Hayes. You know, so that's kind of the other thing. You know, the bubble is obviously huge on defense. And the bubble, I think, for the number three goalie, I think that's still wide open. I don't think there's any doubt that Trey Augustine and Jacob Fowler are going to be the top two goal tenders here. So they'll be looking for the number three goalie.

And it's Andrew Oak or Hampton, Slakinski, or Tyler Muslick, or maybe somebody that's not here. You know, you never know. With that spot, it's obviously not as critical as the others. But I think particularly up front, you know, as good as Oliver Moore is,

you know, I think he's a bubble guy. You know, I think that this is. This is, this is, his speed is a weapon. His defensive sense is strong. I think he's struggled to make plays here, but he did have a nice goal the other day, or yesterday. So, you know, he's, he's had those moments and those flashes, and he's obviously a player. I like an awful lot. You know, the question becomes you look at Isaac Howard versus Gabe Perot and can you take both of them?

I would say probably not. And that's not because, you know, they're both tremendously skilled. They have great vision. They do a lot of things well. But at the same time, you know, you definitely want to make sure you have that balance in your forward group. And, you know, if you say if we're going to take a Frank Nazar and we're going to take, you know, we're going to have our Will Smith and other, you know, other guys like that, you say, well, we probably need to beef up our wings a little bit.

And then that opens the door for guys like Quentin Mustie and people like that. Because, you know, I think most, almost all of the returning guys to me feel like locks. Yeah. You know, I would say, you know, Charlie Stramel is at an up and down camp, but I don't think there's any world where he's not playing in his third world junior championship. Just because I think that he does a lot of the little things well, he'll probably be a depth player for this team again. He'll probably be a primary penalty killer.

But, you know, I think that there are. They're the guys that have put themselves in positions, guys like Canoble and Oliver Moore, Gavin Hayes. You know, Cam Lund is another one who I think he was really close to making the team last year. I think that this year is going to be even harder to make than last year's team. And so that's, you know, the level has to rise for a guy like him who was so close last year. You know, so I think that's probably, I think the bubble is pretty big. but I don't think that there's actually a ton of spots up front that are really up for grabs anymore, you know, barring injuries and things like that. And there's also the possibility that Logan Cooley gets loaned back.

And if that happens, yeah, if that happens, then all of a sudden you're bumping, you know, maybe that bumps the Frank Nazar out of the picture all of a sudden, which would suck. You know, I think it'd be hard for him, but that's certainly a possibility. So I think that there are a lot of different players in the mix here. I think the defense is going to go down to the wire. I would have a feeling they're going to bring a lot of guys in December on the blue line. And then, you know, they may dress six defensemen as opposed to the seven that you normally see in a world junior. They might just say, we're going to go six and we're going to 14 forwards because we want maybe you take a power play specialist up front. You know, like that's the kind of thing that could potentially happen with this roster.

but again, you kind of play with fire when you do that. You will be able to take 25 players just so everybody knows. You can take 25 players. You can only roster 23. And then you can only, if you fill your 23, you can only replace in the event of injury or illness. So that's, you know, they're going to have some flexibility on their roster. But yeah, I think the defense questions will remain all the way through this process.

And that is, I think, when you talk about kind of that power play specialist, that is Gabe Perrault, that's the best argument for being able to take Gabe Perrault and Isaac Howard is that Gabe Perrault might be, it's either Himberlane Hudson is your best overall power play player. And it's tough if he's not in the top six, I think sometimes to justify it. But in that scenario you just discussed, I think that would help Gabe Perrault's case, right? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think if you're going to have a guy, he's just so dynamic offensively, you know, I don't think he's going to play big minutes in this tournament. Like I think it's going to be hard for him to be a top six guy here, just based on what's in camp and what's available to them and how certain guys have played.

But, you know, what if Will Smith and Gabe Perrault and Ryan Leonard all have the most tremendous first half of a freshman trio that we've ever seen? And then you're like, we have to bring them and we have to bring them together and we have to have them be our second line. You know, like that's, that's a possibility too. Yeah, and even if you don't start them together, you have them as, you know, Scott Wheeler made this point to me yesterday. Like, you have them in this like break glass in case of emergency scenario, right? Like even if you do start Will Smith with Goteen Snuggarood, if things are off to a rocky start and you can just go to what may be the best line in, you know, USA National Team Development Program history sitting there to throw out there, it's at least something worth having. The one thing that came to my mind when you're talking about Charlie Strammel, and I agree. with you. I think he's a virtual lock, if not a lead pipe lock to be on the team. He's a

returner. He's a very different element from anything else they really have. But the one thing that sticks in my craw when we talk about him as being like their top penalty killer is he's also going to be their top penalty taker. And it's tough to lean on a guy as your top penalty killer when he's probably going to be the guy in the box the most of anyone on your team. Yeah, you know, it's been a work in progress with Charlie to kind of, especially in double IHS. play. Like, you know, like he's, he's the kind of guy in an NHL game where he's going to get away with a lot more than he does in an international hockey game. So let's put it that way. But, but yeah, but, you know, I think that he's got the issue that he's big. And when he hits people, it's really loud and it's also, they fly. And it's and it's occasionally, you know, sometimes his shoulder is going to make contact. And obviously head contact is a massive, a massive penalty in, in double IHF play. And it's not even, even if you didn't mean to do it, it's still a penalty. So, yeah, I think he's going to have to be on his best behavior and certainly have to be a guy that is playing, contained within himself. I thought he did that well at the last World Juniors for the most part, because he, you know, and he did kill a lot of big penalties for them.

And so, you know, I think in this camp, we've seen a couple of instances where he's had a few stick penalties. He did have a head contact penalty in this one. You know, so that's, but I also think that you live with the wrist. of the penalties with a player that plays as heavy and physical as he does because I think you need that element in this tournament. I think he's actually going to be a very important player for Team USA here. I think that this is, you know, this is going to be a situation where, you know, he's going to have to play and give them some meaningful minutes against top competition. And he can do it. He's proven it before he can do it. It's just a matter of, you know,

staying at pace and being able to make good decisions and to play contained. Because when he does get wild, that's when the penalties come. And, but I think that he's actually matured quite a bit in the last couple of years. And I think he picks his spots a lot better now. Yeah, I think, we'll wrap here in a second, but with go to a break. But I think when I envision like an ideal fourth line for the U.S., it's probably something like Charlie Stramel, Danny Nelson, and Gavin Hayes, or maybe Oliver Moore, if they want that speed element.

And I think that is just a met, either one. of those sound like a menacing line to try to play against at this event. Yeah, you know, I think that that's an interesting one because it brings so many different elements to the table, right? You know, you got size, you got heaviness, he got speed, you got all this stuff. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, it'll be interesting. Like, I'm really interested to see where Gavin Brindley ends up in this lineup too, you know, is that, that quick guy. He played down the lineup last year. He's so versatile. You can put him kind of anywhere. But yeah, but I mean, like, that's another guy where he's probably going to kill a lot of penalties for you to do a lot of

that. But man, yeah, I mean, the possibilities of their fourth line, like all four lines should be able to score goals in this tournament. And that's, and not give up a ton defensively. Not give up, not give away, you know, a lot of the things that you typically give away for high end offense. So I don't think you're going to have your traditional grind line, but they're going to be a gritty group that's going to be in that fourth, fourth line that can also score. Awesome. Great stuff, Chris. We're going to take a break right here. and then Corey Promin is going to jump us and join us with a dispatch from the Halinka. All right. We are joined now by Corey Pranman, who is at the Halinka tournament. We are recording this

the morning of the gold medal game. So if anything crazy happened in the gold medal game, we apologize for not touching on it. But Corey, having seen most of this tournament so far here, I think it was a good idea to jump on and record what we could from what's happened so far. you know, to those listening, obviously in the spring, we focus really heavily on Team USA at the World U18 Championships. At the Halinka, this is Canada's tournament. And so we're going to spend a lot of our time, I think, today, Corey, talking about Team Canada, fresh off a huge win over the U.S. in the semifinals. I think the final on that one was 8 to 1. Who's standing out so far from Canada?

And you're right that, you know, this tournament tends to be heavily dominated by Team Canada historically. last year at the Halenka, the one in Red Deer, they ran over everybody on the way to the gold medal game. And this year, it wasn't that way, even though it was for most of the tournament. They actually lost their opening game to Finland, 9 to 6.

That was quite an interesting development that created all kinds of three-way tie potential in that group. There was actually three-way ties discussions in both of the groups leading towards the middle round, which is not something I usually would see a lot.

A lot of scouts and I were doing math in the stands as those games were going on, trying to figure out the various tiebreakers. But for the most part, Team Canada has dominated the tournament outside of that one game against Finland. And this Canada team has a good group of forwards, a lot of underage forwards, which we'll touch on later. But the strength of this team, for me, is on the blue light. And last year, we saw two Canadian defensemen from that Halenka team go in the first round, both in the 20s and Tanner Mollandick and Oliver Bunk. I think this year you could see around four defensemen from this team go in the first

round. I think Sam Dickinson from London, Charlie Ellick from Brandon, Henry Mews from Ottawa, and Zane Paragherick from Saginaw all have first round potential and some might even go high in the first round. So, and this is kind of the story of this draft, right? Is it last year for so long? You know, we talked about especially by the time the draft came around, maybe the rumors of the weakness of the defense class were a little overstated at points. But this is kind of revenge of the defenseman on the whole this year.

And we'll see by the end of it, obviously, we got a long way to go. Just like things could have changed in last year's draft. There could be some defensemen who fall up in this year's draft or guys who, even more guys who emerged that may not be a consensus names right now. After the Hohelanka, I would like to try to do a really quick early list based on anything that I might have been. new for me off the tournament. I think I have 25, 27 names. I have A grades on right now, and I think 10 of them are defensemen,

which would be not massively above average, but above average. So I think early on, it's fair to say this is a strong defense group. And particularly, you know, you want to focus at the top. And I think at the top of the draft from this tournament,

I think this conversation is going to start with Sam Dickinson and Henry Mews, but I think particularly it will start with Sam Dickinson, the London defenseman. I think he's a guy who, when you watch him here, he looks like a guy who ticks a lot of the boxes you look for in a pro defenseman. You know, he's 6'3. He skates really well. He has really good skill. He's physical. He has a big shot from the point. I wouldn't call his puck moving amazing. You kind of saw some nervous times with the puck in this tournament where he may, you know, can force this had some bad turnovers. But I think it's the brain is good enough considering all those other physical tools he has.

you know, when you think of Jake Sanderson, you think of Simon Evanston, those kind of two-weight offensemen, I think Dickinson can fit into that mold. And for me, it would be between him and Michigan State's Artem Blas Shunov to be the extremely way too early favorite to be the first defenseman picked in next year's draft. Elick is an interesting one too to me. He plays for that Brandon team that I think took, you know, some lumps last year. And Nate Danielson ends up going in the top 10, but I think there was a long time in the draft cycle where we wondered, you know, how playing on that Brandon team was going to affect his stock. They should be in position this year to be a better team.

And Alec is a guy who should be one of the reasons why. Yep, Alec, obviously, I mean, Danielson should be excellent. Eleg, the Roger McQueen should have a better year. He's also playing a prominent role on this Canadian team. Elect is, you know, has a lot of the physical tools you look for and more of a, you know, a true stopper in that he's big. I think he's an excellent skater. He's physical.

He's, you know, plays with an edge. The question with Elek is going to be puck game and the offense and whether he's got a natural enough feel for the game to basically just make a good first pass in the NHL. You know, I think of what,

you know, it could, if, if it's really, uh, an issue going forward, then maybe you could, kind of see him go where say Andrew Gibson went where it would be in the second round. But I think

it's good enough. I've seen enough hockey sense for him over the over the years that think that he could be a first round candidate. And now you start thinking of guys like brain Schneider, Kate and Gouldy, Philip Broberg, those kind of guys who maybe they don't have a ton of offense, but you're so excited by the size skating package. And I would say Broberg wasn't physical, but Schneider and Googly were. So that's kind of where I, the, the thought processes with me, with Ehrlich early on is I think he can be that kind of player. I would say his play in this tournament has been up and down. The games where he's playing really well, I mean, he looks like this real shutdown force.

And then the games where he hasn't been as good is because he's kind of hot potatoing the puckle over the place. And you're really worried about the pure skill level. Yeah. And then in terms of the spotlight, you know, Saginaw is going to host the Memorial Cup next year. And Zane Perrick, in terms of the underage season, he's the guy who put up the, you know, the big point total, the 0.75 points per game in his U-17 year, now going into his draft year, you would expect this is one of the guys that fans are going to, over the course of the season,

if not by them, I mean, certainly you'd think by the Memorial Cup, a lot of people have taken note of what he's able to do. Yeah, I mean, his numbers were exceptional last season. It's no surprise. He's running Canada's first power play unit, and the offensive tools jump out at you. between his great skill, his extremely good offensive hockey sense, his big shot,

his skating. He's very, very talented. But there's a reason why, despite all of that talent, he's barely, you know, hitting 10 minutes of nights of ice time at times in the tournament,

sometimes less, and that his defense is very not good. So you got this really interesting player, I think, going into next season where I think he's going to be on highlight reels. I think he's going to put up a, ton of points and score a ton of goals next year in Saginaw. And like you said, they're going to go to the Memorial Cup.

They should be a good team. But I think how he competes and how he plays at the other end will be picked apart a little bit over the course of the coming season. You know, there's been times at this tournament where he's done, you know, really high-end offensive plays. And you just see the way the brain works. And you can see a really unique offensive player. And then there's been moments where you're kind of left scratching your head when

you see some of the things he does and the way he puts his team at disadvantaged defensively. Yeah. How about up front? I know, you know, Berkeley Cadden's a guy speaking of great underage seasons who put up some nice numbers last year in Spokane. And I believe going into this gold medal game, I think it's seven goals in his first four games here while we're in the sea for Canada. Yep.

He's been the clear best forward at this tournament for me. And I think he's just a really well-rounded for a prospect, you know, dynamic skater, tremendous skill, he makes plays, he competes hard, he can finish. Obviously, as you mentioned by the seven goals, several from long range. I think this is an excellent pro prospect. I think he's going to go very high in next year's draft. And I think he is a bit of a no doubter right now in terms of the top tier forward. We're going to talk about Macklin-Salbreni.

All year we're talking about Cole Isman and Ivan Demadov all season. and then you really start talking about Berkeley Caden, and maybe he ends up being in that top group when it's all set and done. Yeah. How about any other Canadians to kind of touch on? I mean, obviously, Michael Mesa is going to be a guy who I think listeners are going to want to hear about. Yeah, and Michael Mesa started off a little bit lower in the lineup, ended up working his way up as the tournament went along.

He's been the second power play. He played on that top line with Catton by the end of the tournament. I think he's been very good. Obviously, his skating is excellent. His skill is very good. I would say it's been interesting kind of following the dialogue on MISA over the last year or so because he comes in as the exceptional status player, very good numbers in Sagada right away. You know, I've watched him obviously in Sagina.

I've watched him at the Under 17 Challenge and I've watched him now at this tournament. And I'm trying to figure out the right way to scale expectations on Misa because, you know, I've seen the exceptional status players over the years between, you know, Connor Bradard, Conor McDavid, Aaron Eckblad, Sean Day, Joe Vallado, and I'm trying to I probably, and Shane Wright. And Shane Wright is the name I think of actually the most when I think of Misa, not in terms of stylistic, but in terms of what's realistic to expect that this player going forward, because I don't think he's Connor Bedard. I don't think he is that level of prospect. From Wiesborda I've seen and comparing the two at the same age, I don't see that.

but I don't think he's dramatically far off. He's just, I think, you know, I probably would say, you know, I project him as a very high draft pick in the draft year, a guy who I think will have a very long, a productive NHL career. I just don't see the special player when I watch him. But I think, you know, him versus James Hagan's will be a debate. I would lean Hagan's right now, but he would be up there. There's a couple other underage guys on Canada who have been impressive. I think Porter Martoni will be a very high. high draft pick next season. I think he looks like he has all the attributes.

His size, skating skill combination is very unique. Same thing with Roger McQueen, although I think McQueen, even though he's bigger than Martoni, his compete can be a little bit more inconsistent. Maybe a little bit reminds you a Kirby Doc a little bit in that way. It's easy to kind of say that with the big right shot center and who can skate and handle the puck. So it's maybe a little lazy comparison, but that's what I think of when I've watched McQueen. And then Malcolm Spence, I think, has been good too.

his skating, his work ethic is really strong. He's got some skill made out the high, high-end skill of Martoni or McQueen, but he looks like he'll be a high draft pick in the 2025 draft. We will hit the kind of the whip around on the other teams here, but really quick, any other kind of Canadians you want to touch on, Ryder Richie, anyone else kind of jumping out? Yeah, Richie and Massey are two guys who have high grades coming into the tournament. Richie probably hasn't, I would say, he's been a top score for the team.

I wouldn't say he's as electric as, say, Caton is, but he says skating is good. His skill is very good. He works hard. Been a part of their first power play. So, you know, strong tournament for him. Max and Massey will be a tough one going into the next season. You know, had a great year in the queue, big points, good size forward with skill. He works hard.

You can shoot the puck. Skating is quite problematic, though. And I think that's going to be the area we'll be focused on going forward. I think he's kind of a. kind of a really awkward looking skater. So that would be my concern with him going forward. Yeah. All right.

We talked about kind of the year of the D. Adam Eurecheck from Chekia, certainly I think kind of belongs in the reason why, right? I mean, in some of the clips of his skating, I think, are already making the rounds here. We're not talking about David Eurecheck,

but Little Brother brings a lot to the table too, it seems like. Yeah, not as big as David. Maybe he doesn't quite have like the nastiness as well as David, but he skates better. I'd argue he's a little bit smarter than David was at the same age. David still had plenty of offense, a lot of skills. I don't mean to say that they're,

I don't know how much their offense is going to be different, but Adam skating is definitely a difference between him and his older brother. And Adam Euret checked a big reason why Czech made the gold medal game. And I think right now I'm not going to say he would, he's going to go where David went on the draft, which is a top 10 pick. I wouldn't say that actually right now.

but I think he is a strong first round candidate. The moment six to a two defenseman who can skate and move the puck, those tend to be highly desirable pro prospects. Who else? Who else is kind of standout for you here? If you had to kind of give a player from each team or so or some of the standouts, I guess. I mean, it was a really tough tournament for Sweden. I think their age group in general just underwhelmed here.

The one guy who I wasn't really as familiar with because he wasn't at the under 17 challenge was Leo Shalene Walanius from Vacchio. good skater, good puck mover thought he competed well, he's just an average size D-man, but I liked him enough to think that he's got a chance to be maybe a second or third round pick going into next year's draft. Danielle, you'll think of

from Switzerland. It's a good skater, good skill as well, similar size. I really like the competitiveness he's shown to go with the poise and the skill. I don't know if he's going to be a first rounder, but I think he's got a chance to be a top two round pick next year. Trevor Connolly from the U.S. looked pretty

dynamic at times with his skating, at a skill. He was killing penalties for them too. Looks like a pretty well-rounded hockey player. Emil Heming scored a lot for Finland. Finland was kind of hampered and that they had three of their top players, not with his age group. Aaron Kippahar, Yukonsta, Halenius, were with the 20th of the World Junior's

showcase and then VT. Vason and then the defenseman broke his foot right before the tournament started. But, I mean, Hemming was their top score. His feet are good enough. He's got some skill. You can shoot the puck well. I would say he's got a chance to be maybe a second round pick going to next year. All right.

Any final thoughts here going into the Canada Czechia gold medal game? Kind of the way that the Hulinka Gretzky Championship should be built. Yeah. And it's, you know, this is actually the first Czech gold medal appearance in quite some time. I believe since the Nettius Zedina age group, I could be mistaken, though. But I think that was the last. last time they made the gold medal game. And this check group, who I actually did not like when I watched them in various tournaments last season.

So there's been some guys throughout this, uh, over the summer who have developed really well. And, uh, and I think this is not just because Eurocheck has played well. There's quite a few players on this check team that are on intrigue for both this year's draft and next year's draft. And I think they made, I don't think they're going to push Canada, you know, though it's kind of funny making this prediction right before, you know, a few hours before they play and this is going to post after they play. So hopefully this age as well. But I think they can push Canada and maybe it won't, you know, and give them a decent game. Yeah.

All right. That is going to do it for us. Corey, thanks for calling in for this overseas. And thank you guys for listening to this episode of the athletic hockey show's prospect series. And follow us on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at the athletic hockey show. You can catch more Chris over at Flow Hockey and his podcast Talking Hockey Sense. And right now get a one-year subscription to the athletic for $2 a month when you visit

theathletic.com slash hockey show. We've got some good stuff coming in the coming weeks with Corey's pipeline series about to drop, so you're going to want to be around for that. We'll talk to you soon.