The Bechdel Cast - 10 Things I Hate About You with Laci Mosley

Episode Date: September 6, 2018

On this episode, Caitlin secretly pays Jamie to invite special guest Laci Mosley to come on the podcast and examine 10 Things I Hate About You, and they all fall in love by the end! (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @DivaLaci on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively Bruce Bozzi. On my podcast, Table for Two, we have unforgettable lunch after unforgettable lunch with the best guests you could possibly ask for. People like Matt Bomer, Emma Roberts, and Colin Jost. Did you say a Caesar salad with lobster?

Yeah. Whoa. Our second season is airing right now, so you can catch up on our conversations that are intimate and often hilarious. Listen to Table for Two with Bruce Bozzi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports.

Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry. Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.

On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast, start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdelcast. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name's Jimmy Loftus. And here we are doing this really silly bit again. For the second episode in a row. I can't wait to hear how much people fucking hate

it. I think whenever we do a Joseph Gordon-Levitt movie, even though he is not Australian. So we here on the Bechdel cast talk about the portrayal of women in movies. We use the Bechdel test as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation about the representation of women. Wait, what's the Bechdel test? It is a test that you apply to a movie. It requires that a movie has two named female identifying characters. They have to speak to each other. And that conversation cannot be about men.

Very few movies pass this very simple test that doesn't sound that hard to pass. But the thing is that movies hate women and movies don't like women to be in them. Can we beta test it really quick? Yeah. Hey, Caitlin. Hey, Caitlin. Hey, Jamie. They changed the name of my favorite donut. What?

They changed the name of my favorite donut at Dunkin' Donuts from the vanilla cream donut to life is a party. So now every time I want to get my favorite donut, I have to go in and be like, I'll have one life as a party. And the person working there always laughs. It sucks. And that passed the Bechdel test. It sure does. Okay. One life is a party and the person working there always laughs. It sucks. And that passed the Bechdel test. It sure does. Okay.

Well, I'm sorry that happened to you. Thank you. Sorry about your tragic life. It's like three mornings in a row where I just have to say life. And I've tried this morning to be like, can I have a vanilla cream donut? And they're like, which one? It's like, life is a party. Unbelievable. The chocolate cream donut's name unchanged.

I don't understand what the whole. Anyways. Well, that's all I have to say. Hey, quick plug at the top of the show. If you live in the Los Angeles area. Yeah, I do. Yes, so do I. And that's why we're going to be doing a live show in Los Angeles.

Oh, yeah. And that's why we're going to be doing a live show in Los Angeles on September 15th at 9 p.m. at The Ruby, which is a really cool comedy venue. We are really excited for it. We haven't done a live show in L.A. in a while. of my favorite people in LA and a first time guest to the podcast Maggie Mae Fish who I'm especially excited to have on for this particular episode because she recently did this amazing video essay about the work of Tim Burton and how it is spoiler alert toxic and racist whoopsies anyways it's gonna be a fun show super fun so don't forget September 15th at 9 p.m in los angeles at the ruby for tickets go to bechtelcast.com click on the live appearances tab there's a link there and come to the show and we're so excited to meet you

let's talk about a movie and even before we that, let's introduce the guest that we have today with us. She is wonderful. She is an actor. She is a comedian. Lacey Mosley. Hey, thank you, Caitlin. What an intro. Oh, you know.

I've done this before. Just facts. Only facts. Just facts. I have a master's degree in intros, so I got this. Welcome. Thanks for coming. Thank you for having me.

And thank you for bringing us the movie we're talking about today popular request people ask for it a lot we're talking 10 things i hate about you so lacy what is your history your relationship with 10 things i hate about you um my relationship with this movie is honestly it kind me it kind me as a child because i wasn't in high school when this came out. I think I was pretty young. And I thought that I was going to get to high school and everybody was going to be 28 with a connecting beard and fine as fuck. And I was ready.

My little loins were ready. And then I got there and I was like, y'all look corny. Y'all corn balls. Like, nobody was fine. Why is everyone sweating? Nobody was Heath Ledger nobody no one was close at all no one was paying someone else to take you out on dates exactly we have no Heath Ledger no Heath Bar even and there wasn't no activities I never went

paintballing I was never in nobody's lake or river. A date was like, oh, we're going to go to the Chick-fil-A. Yeah, we're literally going to the nearest fast food restaurant. Right, and sitting there and being excited that our parents let us out the house. Like, that was it. It was so disappointing. I'm so sorry. This does really prep you for a very 1999 fake ass version of high school.

Simply does not happen. Does not exist. Jamie, what's your relationship, your history? Saw it yesterday. Saw it yesterday. Like most movies we've covered, I was like, I'll get around to this one. But I didn't. I think part of the reason I avoided it was because I just didn't grow up watching movies that much. And so I didn't know much about this movie until Heath Ledger had already died.

And I'm like, oh, man, if this movie sucks, then I'll think less of him. And he can't redeem himself in my eyes, which is what with being dead and all. So seeing as he's deceased, maybe I'll just not watch it. Which is kind of like backwards. Yeah. To honor him, I'm going to disengage from his work entirely. Give him the chance to not fail in my eyes. I also used to have a thing with not liking Julia Stiles.

Was that like a thing or was that just me being rude? I don't really know. I don't remember how people viewed her because this was kind of her prime. She was in Save the Last Dance, which I haven't seen in forever. Black people enjoyed her. We enjoyed Julia. You like Julia? Yes, yes.

After Save the Last Dance, we were like, you're alright, Julia. You missed it. I do appreciate her repping the A-Cups. It's nice to see someone with A cups get laid. That's always good. Yeah. Yeah. It's always good. Felt seen.

Now that I think about it, Julia really doesn't like her whole body and face is very regular. Yeah. Like she's not. It's really dope to see that. Just like you don't have to have the, you know, Sofia Vergara breasts or J-Lo booty to be in a movie and get kissed on by Heath Ledger. So that's nice.

It's good to, I like living in the fantasy world where it's like, no, Heath Ledger lives for A-cups. I'm like, you know what, I'll engage with that fantasy, sure. Yeah. My history with this movie, it came out in 99. I was 13 so i was like the right age to be like watching this movie like gobbling it up i think i saw it right around the time that it came out but i didn't like this wasn't a movie that i like watched over and over or anything like

that i saw it probably twice in my teenage years uh i was too busy being like, I'm a cool girl who watches Indiana Jones every day. I don't have time for this, like, high school movie stuff. I know. I was one of those cool girls. You weren't like the other girls? I don't understand. A little different from the other girls? You know what?

Sorry, everybody. But that is who I was. I thought I was that girl, too. I'm like, I kind of like shop at Hot Topic sometimes like they're like you mean like all every other excuse you Stephen Massaroni worked at Hot Topic and he was cute right I just went in there to look at naked stuff yeah they had naked stuff in Hot Topic they had a lot of soft porn in Hot Topic I don't remember naked birthday cars all types of stuff we just go

naked on three years like i have cinemax okay uh so i saw this a couple times as a teenager and then didn't revisit it until the other day and i've watched this movie three times in a row since then i i'm gonna i like this movie i didn't think that i did but after having it's like so much funnier than i remembered it is funny it's like oh man i mean it's oh god there's a lot to unpack there's a lot for us to discuss but i have a fondness for this movie that i was not expecting to have there's like like, this is one of these movies where I think if I saw it at the right time, if I'd seen it like high school time, I would love it. But I don't know.

I'm like, it's fine. And it's like all these like Shakespearean adaptations are just like, you're like, yeah, that's probably not going to be that good for women. Yeah. Chances are it was written originally in 15.

What a fucking whatever. Yeah. I'm a genius uh there's been so many well she's the man she's the man she's the man actually which is on our list of things to cover hopefully we get to it soon lion king but this is taming of the shrew right yes and i have not read the taming of the shrew but I did read the first few paragraphs of the Wikipedia article about it, so I'm basically a scholar. Whoa, master's degree flex. I have a master's degree in specifically the Wikipedia article of the Taming of the Shrew. I just want to read an excerpt from it where it basically just describes the plot of that play. The main plot depicts the courtship of petruchio and katharina hot the headstrong

obdurate shrew initially initially katharina is an unwilling participant in the relationship however this is a comedy right this is one of his comedies yeah yeah this is not a horror movie this is a comedy however petruchio quote-unquote tames her with various psychological torments such as keeping her from eating and drinking until she becomes a desirable compliant and, and obedient bride. Oh, my God. That is... And that's the happy ending. Yay!

Have either of you read the play? Not for a long time. Yeah, years ago. Yeah, like in high school, I think. It's so weird that they would let high school girls read that play. Yeah. And this is the greatest writer of all time. And you're like, he's starving her and killing her.

And it's a comedy. Well, that's horrifying. That's not good to hear. So the movie seems to leave some of that, like, you know, torture behind. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it takes a little bit of a different direction. I appreciate that.

The times have changed a little bit. A little bit. Like the director's cut has Julia Stiles starving, like locked in her room. Like she started with D cups, and then Heath Ledger starved her. At least it's not like the Shakespeare adaptation. Like what's the like the Baz Luhrmann?

Isn't he Australian? Yes. He did like Romeo plus Juliet. And it was like, it's exactly Romeo and Juliet, but they're wearing Hawaiian shirts for some reason. You're just like, okay, I guess. Yeah. I mean, Shakespeare, the adaptations of Shakespeare throughout the ages. Lion King is great.

Mel Gibson's in a Hamlet movie. Whatever. Oh, yeah. I agree with that. Okay. So the movie 10 things i hate about you uh takes this basic concept of having to tame a shrew and you know takes it takes it a little bit different of a direction so she's a shrew because she just wants to like think on her own

live her own life he's like she can read don't give her food that's exactly it so i'll do the recap of the movie uh it takes place in a high school in the greater seattle area yeah real fraser vibes at the top of this movie you're like oh space suddenly i'm likeiles, where are you? Okay, so we meet Kat. That's Julia Stiles' character. She is a feminist killjoy who hates everyone. She's a senior, I think, in high school. Her sister, Bianca, who is a sophomore, is...

Who's played by the girl who played Alex Mack on Nickelodeon. Oh, yeah, I done watched that show. I never put that together. Yeah, a little girl detective. Ooh. Yeah. So Bianca is a sophomore. She is popular, and she wants to date boys.

Their dad does not want either of them to date anyone because he does not like women to have agency or autonomy over their bodies. Their dad is also played by the same guy who plays the stylist in The Princess Diaries, Paolo Puttanesca and their mom's dead right? Their mom it seems like she left I thought she died

they talk about it like she died but then later they say she left I'm not sure I think she left no explanation provided cause there's like that scene where Alex Mack is wearing the pearls. And Julia Stiles is like, why are you wearing those pearls? And they're like, she's not coming back.

Which I was like, oh, so she's dead? So she's dead, right? They're like, no, she just didn't like you? Like, I don't know. She just abandoned them. I don't know why she left. And doesn't want to come back. And like left all of her trinkets with them.

And abandoned them. Right, like she just left in the night with none of her stuff. But I won't be back. wet it's 99 she could have like a beep or something i don't know either way they're kind of disney princess because they don't have a mom yeah so uh their dad comes up with the rule that if cat who hates everyone if she dates then bianca is allowed to date. What a wild way to communicate to your own daughter that you find her to be unfuckable. It's like this bitch will never get a man. So my hot daughter that I have a crush on

can't go on dates either. Get your chastity belts on girls. Put that bread down. Chafoo. Chastity is the name of Gabrielle Union's character. Oh, yeah. So that's a fun tie-in. Oh, boy. She was

not Chase. She was not. Chastity and then what's Bianca? I'm going to keep calling her Alex Mack. Their characters are all over the place where when you meet them, they're like, oh, they're so dumb they can barely walk.

But then later, they're like, no, we're smart, but we just want to have sex, which I like way better. But there's still some moments where they're like, we're too dumb to live. They're beautiful and evil. And they love crime. As beautiful women are. Evil.

Oh, goodness. Okay, so then Cameron, that isoseph gordon levitt's character he wants to date bianca and she tells him of this new development where she can date if her sister cat if she finds a date meanwhile there's a character named joey donner who also wants to date bianca and b Bianca wants to date Joey right back. Oh, Joey's the hot guy who always has a $50 bill on him. Yes. He's so rich and so hot. He's got a crisp 50 in his back pocket.

That's a lot of money in high school. In 99, yeah. Oh, also in 99, inflation. Exactly. Joey. So Cameron and his friend Michael, who looks 40 and it's distracting. He's a grown ass man. He's on his second marriage.

He paid child support before lunch. They're like, where are you going? You know I gotta go see my wife. The kids need braces. Like he's grown as fuck. For the first two scenes, I genuinely thought Joseph Gordon-Levitt's friend was his guidance braces. Like he's grown as fuck. There's like, for the first two scenes, I genuinely thought Joseph Gordon-Levitt's friend

was his guidance counselor. I'm like, why is his guidance counselor hanging out with a student so much? And he's like, I'm 14. I'm like,

no. You are good to drive. Like, you have a DUI. Right. He's a full grown man. This is David Krumholz, by the way. Sorry, David. You look old. You look The Fulgerman. This is David Krumholz, by the way.

Sorry, David. You look old. You look old. Way too old. So Cameron and Michael identify this guy Patrick, Heath Ledger's character. They're like, oh, this Patrick guy, he might be a good candidate for someone to date Kat. Now, Patrick is a bad boy, and he is not into this idea. Soeron's like oh well maybe we could pay him to date cat and here's where the story gets a little fucked where he's like well i'm i'm a little poor so sure i'll invoke the oldest like the 80s slash 90s classic trope of let's

trick a woman for the whole movie not apologize and then get to be her boyfriend at the end. Yep. So many movies. Yeah. Refer back to our She's All That episode for more information on that. But because Cameron doesn't have any money, he needs a financial backer.

So he goes to Joey, the douchey model boy. His butts joey pocket 50s and he's like oh if you pay patrick to date kat then joey you will have a shot at dating bianca and joey's like great idea so then that all kind of unfolds where Patrick tries to ask out Kat. She's not into it. Cameron and Michael go to Patrick to help him out. There's a big party where everyone starts to be like, ooh, Kat and Patrick? That party scene is exactly how I thought high school parties were going to be and never were. It was always Mark Joseph's basement,

12 kids sharing one four loco, and dry humping each other. Well, I played Mario Party in the corner with my other virgin friends. That's how I party today. I will have to say that. My high school parties were like those parties Oh, really? I got to go to like one but yeah, it was a guy named Chris. It printed house

I grew up in Frisco, Texas, which is like north of Dallas. Okay, and his dad was a cop and Retrospectively my black ass shouldn't have been over there But his dad was a cop and then he was like let us drink it use the hot tub and like party in there So yeah, so I have gone to at least one high school party that looked like that was a cop and then he was like let us drink and use the hot tub and like party in there so yeah so i have gone to at least one high school party that looked like that so those they do exist they do exist they do exist we just were never invited we weren't cool they did exist mostly in mark joseph's basement mark joseph just had y'all fooled it was probably a party happening that night y'all got invited to like nah nah nah nah nah but my basement

gonna be lit tonight listen I got half a old English 40 okay we all gonna drink sips at the cap pull up oh gosh so at that party like Kat and Patrick start to

kind of bond a little bit and then Bianca and Cameron are like bonding a little bit he gets a little kiss at the end of the at the end of the night and then I do okay that's my kiss sound I do I cannot it really sets me off I'm afraid I can't. I do this a lot. I can't take credit for it. That is my best friend and friend of the cast, JT Taylor. That is his joke that I have stolen from him.

He's the OG slurper. He is the OG slurper. What a name. He started doing that every time straight people kissed on TV or in movies. So then I just started doing that every time straight people kissed on TV or in movies. So then I just started doing it. That's really cool. Anyway, so the teenagers, they're horny and they're starting to get together. The teens are frothing.

It's crazy. So then Kat and Patrick's relationship starts to develop. But then at prom, of course, because there cannot be a teenage movie that does not end in prom. I'm okay with that. Well, we'll get there. She finds out that Joey had paid Patrick to date her. So she gets mad and then he buys her a guitar, does not verbally apologize, bribes her.

And then she's like, okay, we can kiss. Well, in the very last scene, she's in the middle of asking him for an apology and then he like he just starts kissing her again he's like no shut up true this is why people don't like you do those lips are meant for demanding respect and shit like just like plants on her head and you're like oh man that was a funny example because the guys never apologized in these kinds of stories but the fact that she was literally in

the middle of being like you know that wasn't cool and yeah and he's like shut up he's also Heath Ledger so you know what you gonna do to man for your respect or are you gonna make out with Heath Ledger you gonna make out with Heath Ledger? You going to make out with Heat Ledger? Like, Heat, we hit me with your car. It's like the guy's got 10 years. He doesn't have time to be apologizing to people. Heat, you stole money out of my wallet. He's so fat. You just let him do anything to you?

No apology. He can just kiss his way out of any situation. Everything. All right. Well, that is the story. Let us take a quick break and we will be back for the discussion. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017

was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

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And we're back. I have a question. Yeah? Because maybe I just wasn't paying as close attention as i should have but like 10 things i hate about you comes like the title with the 10 things comes up at the very end in julia styles's shitty poem but is it ever mentioned before then of like i wonder what 10 things i hate about you are no that's i think the only reference never set up it's like if uh someone named a movie like they named podcasts like this was the highlight

this was the highlight right it has nothing to do with the movie but this was the highlight weird title that was one thing that i like strut that poem sucked so bad that i'm like yeah a teenager could have written that poem yeah it was authentic yeah I wrote comparably shitty poems in high school but it's weird because she spends the whole movie using such like verbose language and like waxing poetic the whole time it's like surely you could have used some of that vocabulary you have to like put that into your English project. And her poem's like, roses are red, my list is blue. These are 10 things I hate about you. She goes real basic.

I also love the teacher, the black teacher. They're like, guys, we need a black guy. He can only have eight lines. And he's just, he's mean to her too. They're all mean to her. He's mean to her. Their first scene together is kind of cool though.

But at the end when she does the shitty poem it's like, who's gonna get up and do they poem? And she's like, I will. And they're like, alright bitch. He's like, whatever bitch, get up here. He's so mean to her at the end. I was like, why? He kicks her out of his class I think at least twice.

Every time she opens her mouth he's like, I actually am need you to leave like you're pissing me off he's equal opportunity mean though because he also makes joey take his sunglasses off so that he got yeah he got his ass beat by alex mac so this might be a good place to start that scene where she where cat has a conversation with mr morgan is his name it like pretty well sets up who she is as a character. So the teacher's like, what everyone think of this on All So Rises. There's a girl who's like, I loved it.

He's so romantic. And then Kat. I hate that girl in an English class. He's like, I love, this man beat the shit out of a woman every day of his life, but I think we should give him a chance. Charles Bukowski is very cool. And you're just like, ah.

That's pretty much what Kat says. She's like, romantic Hemingway. He was an abusive alcoholic misogynist who squandered half his life hanging out with Picasso, trying to nail his followers. And then Joey says, as opposed to a bitter self-righteous hag who has no friends. So we've got Kat being like, yeah,

you're unlike the feminist killjoy and then Joey's like no one likes you every time she says something like vaguely feminist people are like who is this reptile like get her out of here the names that she gets called throughout the movie are a bitch a heinous bitch a shrew a wretch a loser ant difficult woman, psycho, wretched, and I think I'm missing some. Allison Janney's the one who calls her a heinous bitch, too, which is crazy. She's such a problematic guidance counselor. She's way too involved. She stares at the kids' genitals.

There's, like, a scene where she's, like, looking at Heath Ledger's dick. Yeah. She's writing horny like fanfic and like erotic fanfiction. Super producer Sophie noticed last night too that Allison Janney looks exactly like

Dolores Umbridge from the Harry Potter movies in 10 Things. She's like wearing like the pink suit and has like the bad perm. Same haircut.

Yeah. Yeah. But it's like funnier and the Oh and the pearls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She had, yeah. She has that, she invented the look before J.K. But it's like funnier and the... Oh, and the pearls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She had, yeah, she has that, she invented the look before J.K. Rowling,

that notorious... What a shrew. What a shrew. What a heinous bitch. God. So the rest of that scene in the classroom. So then Kat says, I guess in this society,

being male and an asshole makes you worthy of our time. What about Sylvia Plath or Charlotte Bronte or Simone de Beauvoir? And Patrick, our friend Heath Ledger, bursts into the classroom and says, what did I miss? And Kat's like, the oppressive patriarchal values that dictate our education. It's like, OK. And he's like, good. And then he leaves again, which I love that joke. He's like, all caught up.

Goodbye. Thanks. Thanks, all caught up. Goodbye. Thanks. Thanks for everything. Bye. And then Mr. Morgan gives this monologue where he's like, oh, you're a white girl who's rich and entitled. Maybe next time you go to a PTA meeting, you could ask them why they don't buy any books written by a black man. So this whole scene, it has it all. But the thing. the thing got everything he ledger enters and exits and then five they're like we just need some heath just throw them in

like for a second people are gonna get tired well so there's like there's a comment on like feminism and the patriarchy and misogyny there's comment on race this whole scene basically establishes how much of a like buzzkill cat is because she has like strong opinions and speaks out against the patriarchy but i do like that it's she's also kind of like put in her place of being like a privileged white girl by her teacher because it's like at the end of the day like both of bianca and cat julia styles they're both fucking rich and like a lot of the reason they can even when julia styles's character like rebels against the patriarchy she does it in like kind of privileged ways like hitting joey's car it's like okay that's cool and that's like putting a shitty dude in his place

but also you wouldn't do that if you didn't know your dad was going to pay for the damages. Right. Like, you can't just, I don't know. Then you have to physically hit his car with your fist. You'd have to fight his car. Leave your car out of it. I am too poor to actually hit your car with my car. Because she wouldn't have a car.

And so she's like, I'm going to fight your car. I'm going to fight your car. Which would have been more entertaining, to be honest. That would have a car. And so she's like, I'm going to fight your car. I'm going to fight your car. Which would have been more entertaining. That would have been great. I would love to see Julia Stiles fight a little car. So that's kind of the setup of her character and how like everyone else views her. And the whole idea of the movie, similar to what it sounds like The Taming of the Shrew is, is that like she needs to be softened up like she's too bitchy like no one likes her so we need

heath ledger to come along and you know show her how to be nicer she needs to be tricked by which this is also such a fucking guy fantasy that like you can pay a guy this is more realistic for women you i feel like you could probably more realistically pay a woman to seduce a man than you could pay a guy to seduce a woman. You're not good at it. You're not good at it. None of y'all that fine.

Oh, really? You tricked me? You tricked me into dating? You get the fuck out of here with your magical dick. Get out of here. But men love that notion that they think they think it's real that they could trick a woman into falling in love it's like that's what we do to y'all every fucking day what are you talking about it's called your trophy wife you know your big ugly ass wouldn't be with

that fine ass skinny woman if you ain't had no damn money she gone to you there's yeah yeah and like good for her i don't know no great for her i'm just tired of like i mean i guess some gigolos some there are some men out here who probably could like sling it around. Well, there's that whole industry of like pickup artists. Oh, yeah. That works great, doesn't it? They're always so ugly.

I have a horrifying confession to make. Oh, no. Are you a pickup artist, Jamie? I've been nagging you for years. No, I slept with someone who had, I like woke up and i was like oh my god there's i'm i'm literally next to a copy of the the game with gold embossed pages it was a really nice copy of the game it was an anniversary edition of the game did you steal it and burn it no i slipped out and haven't been heard from since but it was what it oh god pickup artist bad bad bad bad well um so cat the other

thing about her is that because she's like a feminist she's also like painted as this like frigid woman who would never want to date like as feminists are exactly why are there so many movies where it's a teen boy tricking a teen girl and then he's the love interest? It's so weird. I started this off as a con, but then I fell in love with you. But I got conned by my own con. My heart conned me. And now I got feelings.

Now I got feelings. And lucky for you, I got feelings for you. Right? And that's always how it's presented too. He's like, well, now I have feelings for you. So congratulations. You got me. Get out of here.

I was trying to get you and you got me. And now you're stuck with me and you have to be my girlfriend, even though I've already established I'm a fucking liar. I think this is how men feel about falling in love, though. Like they're like, oh, I just came to fuck and, you know, steal money out of your purse. But then I started to love you, girl. Those lips on your face, they're good for more than sex pleasure. What? They're good for telling me I'm cool.

You can push some real complimentary words about me out of that face of yours. Doesn't bode well for Keith. Keith for Heath. Jesus Christ. R.I.P. Clearly I'm very invested. Keith Fletcher. Keith Fletcher.

That sounds like a conspiracy theory. Keith is still alive here on the island with Tupac. Tupac and Keith Ledger. You ain't seen him at Coachella. I saw Keith Ledger at Coachella. It's a real thing. Did you guys see the Keith Ledger hologram?

Shut up. At Coachella. That's now my new favorite conspiracy theory the ways he goes after like wooing her also so interesting to me yeah he he paid the band off yeah right yeah with joey's crisp 50 right so now he's he's back and you know in the red like he's not making any money anymore well yeah but yeah so i i guess you could argue that because he doesn't actually take the money and like spend it on himself no i mean that was his apology it was he was like i bought you this guitar bitch yeah it's a wash I make no money off of this. That whole scene where he,

like, I know that's like one of the big, like I had seen that scene, even though I'd never seen the movie with like the marching band and the, Ooh, yeah. Like I, but the way that scene unfolds is so weird because it's the Julia Stiles character.

The second Heath Ledger starts to French her on the reg, she changes as a person entirely as these movies go. Yes. Where it's like two weeks earlier, if he had pulled that thing with the marching band, she would have been horrified and disgusted by it. But after he, you know, like whatever, kisses her one time, she's like,

oh my gosh, this is so nice. But then there's also like cops chasing Heath Ledger. Yeah. They're also, like, cops chasing Heath Ledger. Yeah. They're also in, like, a professional stadium. Like, whose high school got a coliseum in the back for them to do soccer practice in? Like, it was a big-ass fucking stadium. Like, bitch, we had, like, three bleachers pushed together. Like, the fuck?

They had, like, lawn chairs. Right. And, like, their school looks like Hogwarts. It really does. It's so crazy. I was like, where did they shoot this? And then the PA system is real poppin'. State of the art. I do love when they spoof that scene, though,

in Not Another Teen Movie. And it's like, Jamie's got a gun. Jamie's got a gun! And they tackle the girl. Oh my gosh yeah but the romantic pursuit in this movie is problematic and much like so many other

romantic pursuits we see in movies where like Patrick has to wear her down like she keeps saying no at first he keeps trying he keeps pushing past the no he like shows up by her car in a parking lot he shows up at this club that she's at to watch a show like he stalks her and he's and like he is talk about the game like

this guy is nagging her at every turn there's that towards the end where he follows her to guitar center and barnes and noble which is such a high school day that it fucking kills me i'm just like where are two places i can just spend an hour and for no fucking reason but you know he's like following her and staring at her through a bookcase and she says like you're so and he's like what charming and she's like unwelcome uh-huh and then he just negs her the whole scene and it just like reinforces that whole like the more she says no the more she means yes, which is like the most poisonous thought to tell young men ever. And it also only really works, or is tolerable at least,

if the man is somewhat attractive. Yeah. My mom works in HR, or my mom is a VP of HR for a hospital system in Texas, and she was like, attractive men never get called in HR. She's like, they can kiss you on the cheek, and you'd be like, okay. But if you're ugly. Well, Jamie, they can kiss you on the cheek. And you'd be like, OK. But if you're ugly. Well, Jamie, it's like you're the Buscemi test. The Buscemi test.

Put it in the Coliseum scene. If Steve Buscemi comes out of the, and he's got a microphone, and he's singing, can't take my eyes off of you, and starts dancing. He's killed. He is awful. Those cops shoot him down right yeah he's murdered in front of all the other high school students they just murder him right yeah that scene does

not pass my buscemi test at all but that scene because it's heath ledger and because he's handsome and charming that big romantic gesture that he does like redeems him in cat's eyes which is like so bad and then he gets detention for that and then she goes and she like break him out of detention in that scene where like jamie you were saying she completely changes everything we know about her she changes her whole personality and she becomes untrue she becomes someone who will flash her her soccer coach in order to distract him to get the guy that has been stalking her to be able to sneak out of detention

so that they can go paddle boarding and playing paintball. It's so... That's a very weird scene. And everyone's like, woo, go Kat. Like, yeah, show them titties. Oh, you evolved.

Show them titties, girl. They're like, finally, you're doing what we want you to do the whole time. Show them titties. Smile. Right. A thrilling moment for the A-Cups, though, of like, oh, wow, to think that people would want us to do that. Yes.

Them titties distracted him. Not a popular request, to tell you what. Not a popular request for the A-Cup crowd. So in that way, a small thrill. Also, that teacher character was like, what was going on with him? Where he was just like, I don't know what he was doing, but he was so horny at the beginning of the scene. And then just grew hornier and hornier. And then stopped in his tracks for 10 full seconds by Julia Stiles' A-cups.

It was just very weird. She's like assaulting him. She's like grabbing onto his arms. Oh, your biceps are so big. And then flashes. And also that you would distract your teacher like this. You could have just talked to him like, hey, you know, I had to get my period this month.

You know, something else that's also not feminist. But gotta you gotta show him your titties though right and i guess he can't report you i guess he doesn't want to he was because he was fully engaging yeah yeah but that choice like she goes from this like militant feminist to like yeah i'll use my boobs to like help out a guy who's been stalking me like it just doesn't make any sense and like maybe it's like okay well she's in high school she's young and impressionable like maybe that explains that behavior away but also like not commented on it all it's not commented on and then so many of these teen movies where it is like these impressionable young people who are getting manipulated by each other, who are like being stalked. And it's like, oh, well, they were teens.

They didn't know any better. And it's like, well, maybe don't set all these movies in high school then. Like where's the rom-com with people in their 50s? Everyone's 27 anyways. What does that add? We are all 35. Gabrielle Union, this is the same year that Trees All That comes out. So the same movie comes out twice. Gabrielle Union is literally is the same year that She's All That comes out. So the same movie comes out twice.

Yeah. Gabrielle Union is literally in both of them. But she's 26 in this movie. She's, I mean, holy shit. And she's playing the same role, the beautiful, mean, black woman. Yeah. Right. In both of those movies.

She's so beautiful that she couldn't possibly be nice. In She's All That, she actually leaves her popular shitty friend and tries possibly be nice. And she's all that. She actually leaves her like popular shitty friend and like tries to be friends. I mean, maybe I'm misremembering this, but I remember her being like the nicer person who's like embracing a friendship with Lainey Boggs. Oh, I kind of do remember that. But in this movie. Okay, so. She doesn't really have much to do in this movie at all. Hardly anything.

But the one thing that really stuck out for me. So Gabrielle Union's character's name is Chastity. She's best friends with Bianca, the sister. And toward the end of the movie, Chastity shows up at prom and Bianca's all like, oh, what are you doing here? And she's like, don't make the mistake of thinking you were the only sophomore who got invited to prom. So she basically like turns on her friend for a guy like for this joey creep and chastity says to bianca something like oh he was only trying to go after you because he had a bet with his friends that he was gonna score with you tonight chastity knows this and she's still on

the date with him she knows that he was like trying to bang her friend for a bet. I didn't even think of that. And Chastity's still like, but he's my date. It's just like, what? What are you talking about? The pickings are slim in high school, but that is. I mean, this movie is a prime example of like women being catty and petty and in competition with each other. Because we see Kat and her sister like having a really kind of antagonistic relationship toward the end we see Chastity turning on Bianca over a guy and it really reinforced a lot of these this idea that like oh like teen girls they're they're so petty they're so catty they all just want to be with a man right yeah wait correct me if I'm wrong didn't joey rape cat no what well wait did he oh they they had a bad sexual experience

together right oh and that's why she like doesn't like him and doesn't want her sister to date him but never tells her sister this see i could see that being what What was it? What did he do? So what happens is that Kat and Joey dated in ninth grade. They had sex one time because everyone else was doing it. So Kat was like, I'll do it too. They had sex. It was not pleasant for her. She decided she wasn't ready to do it again. And then Joey dumps her because she didn't want to keep having sex.

So as far as consent goes, it's a little mur murky but it seems like she consented yeah it's just not a sexual experience right and then she didn't she wasn't ready which of course she was in ninth grade like that's so young yeah and then when she told him i'm not ready to keep doing this he dumps her so that's why she hates him so much and i feel like it's also implied that that's why she becomes a militant feminist, which I didn't like that implication either. Yeah. Is like because like Bianca references it towards the beginning of the movie. Like, oh, yeah, like she used to be really cool and popular. And then she was just over it for who knows why, because she doesn't know about the Joey thing yet.

And then it's like, oh, the only way you can become a feminist is if you've first been like really, I don't know. I don't know. Like scorned. Like scorned by men and now you take up feminism. Right. Very Shakespearean where it's like, oh, yeah, she was made into a shrew. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

And now she's an evil reptile who keeps getting sent to the office. Right. That feels like a very, like, 90s idea of what makes you a feminist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, you're on the right trail. I see what you're doing, but you're wrong. Right. All right.

Take another quick break. And then we'll come back and continue the discussion. Sound good? Sounds great. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia.

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Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you up your day. Every weekday, we bring you conversations with the culture makers who inspire us. Like a recent episode with Latin Grammy winner, podcast host, and TV personality, Chiquis, about making a name for herself as the eldest daughter of beloved singer, Jenny Rivera. I'm not afraid. And I think that that's why I've been able to kind of do my own thing

and not necessarily stay in my mom's shadow because I'm not afraid of stepping out of my comfort zone and shaking things up a little bit because that's the only way I feel that you're going to make history. Listen to The Bright Side from Hello Sunshine on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And we are back. Hi. So a quick thing I wanted to touch on is whenever Cameron and Michael are approaching Patrick to be like. It's like Cameron and his old friend. His old guy. His old grown ass man.

Fucking 27 year old high school freshman so they're like hey patrick so we found out that cat likes pretty guys because apparently they found a picture of jared leto in her drawer basically they're implying like maybe make yourself a little bit prettier and then patrick says are you saying i'm not are you saying that i'm not pretty i'm not a pretty guy and i just want to point out that if he was a woman in this movie and they were like hey you're not pretty enough you have to be prettier there would be a whole makeover scene like she'd have to be made over take her glasses off and take her hair out the ponytail and then fortunately paula put an ask is right there to pull it off.

He's like, actually, I'm going to do this weird, goofy pasta meatball accent and then slap and then pluck your eyebrows and you're Anne Hathaway. I just did Anne Hathaway. Now it's time for...

Right. So, but because, because he is a man in this movie, he literally does not a single thing to have to change his appearance and he gets to just keep looking exactly the way he does so i just want to point out and also projects a confidence that has never lent to teenage girls in movies where he's like what are you talking about i'm hot and they're like oh sorry oh never mind never mind you are you're right you're right I felt like there was

a weirdly like implied like no homo moment after that too where he's like what do you mean you don't think I'm pretty and they're like

oh we don't we can't see men cause of our penis we wouldn't know because and then Joseph Gordon-Levitt points to his old ass friend

and he's like did you know he just turned 50 he was born in 1949 he's like did you know he just turned 50 he was born in 1949 he's like oh I've got to get all my sciatica I've got to go to the Cairo Prat guys it's been real

he's like guys I can get us a discount at Denny's we should go but more on that so there's a little bit of like casual homophobia in this movie not as bad as some of the movies we've seen especially from this era but i would say like the like joey drawing a dick on michael's face is an example of that there's a moment where

bianca when she's talking about the photo of jared leto she's like yeah i found this photo of a guy in her drawer so i'm pretty sure she's not quote harboring same-sex tendencies uh there's another moment where Cameron and Michael talk about like wanting to partner up with Patrick but not in like a prison scene way or something like that so it's just like these kind of more subtle examples. It's like, yeah, it's like Clinton era, no homo. Yeah. Which I feel like evolves into an even worse, like Judd Apatow, where it's like 45 minutes of every single Judd Apatow movie is like,

boo, we're not gay. We're just friends. Right. There's literally like a whole movie. Yeah. Where's, what's the,

Jason Siegel has a friend who's a boy. Oh, I love you, man. That's the alternate title for that movie yeah right so worth pointing out that this like many 90s movies uh is pretty liberal with its casual homophobia she's a feminist so we assume she was a lesbian yeah but it looks like she likes dick because we found this photo. She likes pretty dick.

She likes pretty dick. Also, she had black panties. Yeah. And I was like, you don't own black panties unless you're having sex. Right.

Like, how many teenage girls saw this movie and they're like, oh no, like, the color of my underwear means something now.

I did. Yeah. And my mom was buying me black panties. I was like, is this for fucking? No, it's so when you get your period, don't stain your underwear. Sexy. No, that's literally what it's for.

I'm like five years old. I'm not going to be wearing white underwear regularly. Hell no. I don't own no white underwear. No. Absolutely not. Stuff comes out of there. You know?

No thanks. We're leaking vessels. We're free bleeding all the time. All the time. Also, full butt underwear. I didn't, like, that movie, like, made me also insinuate that, like, thongs were sexy. And that was the time when people started, like, wanting you to see the thong. I believe that was when we started hiking the thong up out of the pants yes uh-huh like so we'd say we were ready for sex that's how you show the literal

flag it's like a flag like mounting i was like i bought you these because your ass gonna chew up the other underwear anyway so you might as well just get to the point well that so that reminds me of a moment in the movie where uh so it's after the party cat is in the car with patrick she has gotten very drunk she's drunk she's dancing on table she throws up at some point she like gets a concussion sort of right yeah he's like taking care of her which whatever but they're in the car and she's like you know what you're not as big of an asshole as i thought you were even though you've been stalking me and then she leans in for a kiss and then he kind of you

can tell that he sort of like entertains the idea of kissing her but eventually decides against it and he's like maybe we should do this another time and then that is the catalyst that gets her to turn on him again and fucking hate him where then he needs to do that big romantic gesture of like singing in front of everyone in the stadium to win her back but like i'm trying to make sense of her becoming furious at him because he refuses to kiss her when she's drunk or maybe he refuses to kiss her because he knows that she because she just threw up or because he is having like a conflict of his conscience where he's like oh i i've been paid to take her out and like then this feels like taking advantage of her like i'm trying to figure make sense of this scene i feel like i

it's just like a weird writing choice because i feel like the more likely outcome of that would be she'd be super fucking embarrassed and would maybe not talk to him because she was embarrassed that she tried to kiss him when she was really drunk and he turned her down like i can well that is what they say they're like you you embarrassed her like she's embarrassed and then that manifests into anger i guess but what i'm kind of grappling with is like okay well you know she's this headstrong feminist. But by this point in the movie, she's not. Not anymore.

She's showing her titties. No, feminists can show their titties. But she was definitely a feminist who was not trying to show no teeth before that. Feminists don't show their tits to like get a guy out of detention. I would think that like, she would appreciate a guy not wanting to take advantage of her when she was drunk, but that's what gets her so mad at him.

So I'm just like, it feels like a weird writing choice, which I was like, oh, well, this movie's probably written by men and directed by men, but it is written by two women. Two women who have written a lot of famous stuff. Yeah.

The writing team is Kirsten Smith and Karen McCullough. So this is their first big thing. I guess that this is based on Karen McCullough's high school diary called Ten Things I Hate About Anthony. What? But what they've written together is 10 Things I Hate About You, Legally Blonde, Ella Enchanted, She's the Man, The House Bunny, The Ugly Truth, Crazy Kind of Love, and that's it. Oh, this makes sense because all those movies are about bitches changing

their whole life for a man. Yeah. Legally Blonde, the bitch went to law school for a man. Yeah. I ain't taking the LSATs for no dick. Like, legally blind, the bitch went to law school for a man. I ain't taking the LSATs for no dick. Ain't dick good enough for me to be out here studying that hard and long.

I mean, I guess she eventually realized she wanted to do it herself, but she was out here studying for dick. Absolutely not. Too much dick in the world. But there is kind of this overture where it's great that a female writing team is getting so much work but the overture in their work you're that's ella enchanted is literally about a woman who is cursed by a witch and cannot say no oh that's the part i've never seen it yikes it's i remember reading the book when i was little and

being like this is cool and then anne hathaway was in the movie adaptation it's about a girl who's cursed and cannot say no until she falls in love, or until something breaks the spell. She's the Man is another Shakespeare adaptation. Well, actually, She's the Man is the only one, I feel like, where she was trying to go play soccer. I haven't seen that.

Oh, yeah, you guys should definitely review it. Because I feel like that one, that's the only one they wrote that actually is decent. The rest of them are like, change yourself a dick. Ladies. She dresses up as her brother so that she can play soccer. But in that journey, she does kiss Channing Tatum. Fine ass.

Okay, I'll watch this movie. Wait, Amanda Byn kisses channing tatum release her so yeah there's there's certain choices in this movie that being one of them where she's like you refused to kiss me because i was drunk and you might have felt like you were taking advantage of me well fuck you then like it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me what bothers me more is the like this is like latent in most teen movies of this era of like kind of the the story rewarding heath ledger for doing the bare minimum yeah of like he didn't take advantage of her when she was drunk what a great guy oh my god he did not even try to attack her like give him a million dollars

like it's just like okay there but that happens all the time in movies like this it's like not well it's because men in movies act so horrific that whenever they do just the baseline decent thing, we as the audience are like, wow, what a hero. Forgetting that it is. Literally like, he didn't rape her. Oh my God, I love him. He's a good guy. He's a good guy. You got to lock that down, honey.

Girl, a man that don't rape? Ooh, sign me up. What? Yeah. And that's literally what it is. Yeah. Also, the singing notion, I just don't think that anybody can make that look cool. And they had him sliding down this little pole.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was like, they had him slide down a pole. He's like, if I slide down this pole, maybe she'll slide down my pole. Caitlin. Gross. So do you want to talk about the sisters yes beautiful transition um well first let's talk about the dad because i didn't realize i'm on the i'm on the wikipedia page their dad is supposed to be an obstetrician what yes which makes his character

even weirder where his i don't know this was like an element of, I'm sure, something that came from the Shakespeare play that just was never going to translate to modern times at all. Because it's so weird where he's like, I know what I'll do. I'll make my daughters engage in a creepy perverted bet. That's my idea. But the dad character is just very, very bizarre. I don't hate where his storyline ends but his whole thing is he's he is an obstetrician who's convinced that if his daughters if he allows his daughters to go on a date they will get pregnant right like he believes this firmly

because he's always talking about like the babies that he delivers from teen moms who he slut shames yeah shames for having addictions like it's a whole thing and then he he's obsessed with like controlling his daughter's bodies basically where he's like you can't date because you'll probably get pregnant and and it he does imply that if they got pregnant it would be their fault like they wouldn't be able to help themselves but get pregnant yeah which I don't know. Also, I just didn't understand why he had to. I guess they were trying to validate his obsession with their sexuality through his job.

But that's so weird. That's so weird. It's not like, what'd you like? Don't be out there fucking. I'm going to check y'all pussies when you get back. He's like, it's my job. He's like, I spend all day looking at teenagers' vaginas, and therefore, you're like, no.

Like, these are my qualifications for being so worried about your vagina. Right. Like, what? That's gross. That didn't register with me at all when we watched it. And now I hate him even more. Yeah. It was just so creepy, because it just seemed like that was all

he really cared about. He never asked them how their days were going, or you know, nothing about these girls. His daughter gets into Sarah Lawrence, and he's like, oh, don't go to that school. He's like, Sarah Lawrence, sure, sure, sure, but that hymen, though. Is it intact?

Is it intact? Well, and now especially that we know that their mom left i'm like what was that marriage like is he like the problem he might be the problem i think he's the problem the woman left and left all her shit and like left her daughters with but i'm like something is amiss with paula putin he also also makes Bianca wear that like pregnancy suit with like the giant pregnant belly. Like the closest he could get to a chastity belt. Oh, God. Oh, I guess that at least because I had a question like, why did he just have a pregnancy suit?

Because I guess he's an obstetrician. That makes more sense. Right. But still at the house, I don't think so. Yeah. That's in his office. He's not making house calls. They don't do house calls. And think so yeah that's in his office he's not making house they don't do house calls and if so put him in jail uh i didn't hate where his last scene was

not the worst yeah i'll hand him that where he kind of out of nowhere starts saying like but it's not until he finds out that she's like dating a guy guy and is not as much of a shrew that he's like, okay, I'll let you go to college. I didn't hate it, but it was like, it's better than him being an asshole, a weird pervy asshole the whole movie. Right. Because there is a scene where it's after Kat has wrecked into Joey's car. And he goes like, my insurance doesn't cover PMS. He's a feminist icon. He's like, are you punishing me about Sarah Lawrence?

And she's like, stop making my decisions for me. And he's like, I'm your father. I have the right to make decisions for you. And she's like, so what I want doesn't matter. And he's like, you're 18. You don't know what you want. And then he says, you won't know what you'll want until you're 45 even if you get it you'll be too old to use it because when you're 45 sorry everyone you're too old to do anything a 45 year

old woman yeah he's like i've heard of them but they don't come through the obstetrician's office because their pussy is too old throughout this whole movie though cat's always saying like i want to make my own choices i know what i want and i'm gonna pursue it i'm not gonna do anything else just because someone wants me to do it i'm only gonna do things i want to do so she is like that to me is like the best example of her being like a feminist character uh because you know other times she's like you know fuck ernest hemingway and blah blah but it's like her actual saying it and doing it where she's like i make my own decisions i don't let anyone influence me i'm not going to just do something because it's cool blah blah like all

that stuff i admire that in a character. That's nice. But yeah, their dad is so weirdly controlling about their bodies and their sexuality. Yeah, it's creepy. It's too much. Yeah. And the sisters, like, they of course have to give them that sibling rivalry and hit them against, like, her little sister was awful, like, all the time. And like, but I feel like that's something that you see in teen movies and

on tv all the time it's like oh they're a teenager so they're gonna be awful i wasn't allowed to be awful i was not allowed to be awful at all i ain't get no moments i ain't get nothing like my mom was like nah you ready to fist fight like like it's not happening so your mom sounds great i always see these movies and they're just like oh they're teenagers you know they're horrible what like why that also like perpetuates this whole thing that bothers me that i've like talked about with my friends from high school now where i feel like for me in high school it's like we watch all these movies where teenage girls are always butting heads and they're too petty to get along and there's a million examples of it and it was in high school most of my close friends were other girls but I would never say that I

would always do that bullshit you know 15 year old line of like I actually get along better with guys because they're less drama and like which is stupid and I was lying but I was like that was what I felt like I had to say to like get through where there is this weird like especially then hopefully less so now but a weird media stigma where like women can't be friends with other women because then they'll talk and realize the whole world is a scam

then they'll start sharing how much they make and realizing that they're oppressed right and the sister relationship just like kind of fell right into that with me where it's bianca is written to be a very dumb horny character and it always bothers me when like there's female characters who you know present more traditionally feminine and are more interested in sex and that is conflated with being stupid or mean and that always sucks but then even like the sister relationship it's only resolved where they get along to the end but it's only after all this stuff happens with boys so they never find a way

to meet in the middle without the man being the catalyst. And it would be such a more fun movie if Bianca was just like fucking horny, like cartoonishly horny, but like not mean or stupid. Just like wanting to fuck so bad. Because I can relate with that. Being like a 15 year old that's like ah! Like she's just so

horny. She can't. She's out of control. Yeah, they don't start getting along until like they both have like a man to right like anchor them or whatever and that trope of like beautiful girl has nice guy friend who is perfect man but she ignores him oh okay i want to talk about that the fucking like incel loser who follows you around and then you're like i i feel like that's honestly how my parents got met my dad was just like hey still here and my mom's like all right love him so much they are divorced romantic yeah so there's a scene early on where cameron and mike are talking about bianca and Michael's all like, oh, her dad won't let her date.

Michael, the exposition, the elderly exposition machine character. And he's like, you wouldn't even have a chance anyway because she's so pretty and pretty girls are so out of reach for us dorks because women who are conventionally attractive are superficial. Meanwhile, they are failing to acknowledge that the only girls that

they are interested in are conventionally attractive like they're not looking at like less conventionally attractive no so they're calling these girls vapid and conceited and superficial even though they are so exactly but of course they don't acknowledge that in any way but we're supposed the movie makes us feel sorry for them because they're the dorks who can't get the pretty girl. Why can't we get one of these fine ass bitches? That's how we get Elon Musk, okay? Characters like this are why Elon Musk exists,

of like the vengeful incel nerd who feels entitled to the women around him. And when they're not interested in him because he's an asshole, he's like, I know, I'll show you all. I'm going to kill you all and move to space. And like entitled to the bad bitches. Like, come on now.

We all know. We got mirrors. We know where we at on the scale. You know what I mean? You know when you see somebody, you'd be like, I can bag them. Versus when you see somebody, you can't. And they always are going after the people that are like, this is the most popular girl in school.

She's also one of the most attractive girls in school so we supposed to feel bad for your ugly ass you movie ugly like none of these people are actually ugly they're slouching they're like just like wear oversized clothes and slouch and then you'll be the ugly incel

that we all feel sorry for but you'll still be attractive enough that when you do kiss the hot girl we're not repulsed. Right. No one's gonna call the police. No one's gonna call the police on you making out with this hot person. Oh, man.

It's like Neve Campbell's character in The Craft whenever she has a scar and they're like, oh, she's disgusting. And it's like, no, she's Neve Campbell and she's beautiful. And her scar is on her back

and she covers it up the whole time so she's just a fine bitch like she's fine as fuck but she's sad about something we don't see it's so dumb this movie is well written and funny in a lot of ways where now i'm so interested that because we did a bonus episode on legallyally Blonde. Yeah. And that's another movie that's so riddled with problems, but is like funny. And this I feel like I'm not surprised it's written by the same team because I have the same like internal dilemma where there's a lot wrong. I'm like, oh, but the stuff that's funny. I feel kind of gaslit by this movie.

Like I'm like, it's funny and the characters are likable enough and the story is well crafted that like I feel gaslit by it being good but because it like makes me kind of forget like how problematic so much there's a moment where bianca says to cat can't you find some blind deaf r word to take you to the movie so i can have one date and it's just like 1999 back when you could say that in a movie right but yeah so so many movies from this era and even into like the late 2000s and probably you can find examples of it happening even more recently than that where you know homophobic slurs are used slurs that disparage people with disabilities are used and it's just like holy crap why are movies so bad they're all so problematic it's tricky but this is like i i feel like based on

the other movies we've done of this era it's like very late 90s girl power where it's you know it's like it kind of looks like it could be good for women, but it ultimately like ends up doubling down on patriarchal stuff where it's like, yeah, we're going to let you read a book now and you can say that men are bad, but you still got to end up with one. And he is going to be fooling you the whole time. He's going to be awful. Yeah. The guy that you end up with. Right. I think maybe it was like I feel like everything kind of has like a inching kind of process.

Like we never really get to just bust out the gate as women. So maybe this was like just enough feminism that the network and the executives were like, ah, okay, okay, we'll take it. But she does fuck Heath Ledger at the end, right? Because we're gonna need that to happen. We're gonna need that after he tricks her and doesn't apologize. Even better if she asks for an apology and he puts his mouth on her

yes if she if she asks for an apology make sure he interrupts her with his face i feel like that was like their caveat they were like well we'll have her ask for an apology but don't let her finish it's progress progress this is good oh she bianca does punch a guy and knee him in the balls with such goofy sound effects those sound effects are so loud it's like but uh i like that scene because it was like all right she she's punching a guy for her male date which yeah there's a sword noise at some point for no reason Like, all right, she's punching a guy for her male date. Which, yeah, there's a sword noise at some point for no reason. Sheep.

Like, why did that happen? We just let it go. It's the 90s. Her hands are knives? Sure. Great. Love it. Feminism.

I did like seeing her kick his ass at prom. Yeah, because usually you see two guys fighting over a girl, but this time you see a girl fighting a guy for a guy? And then there's a toxic masculinity moment of like, take your sunglasses off. You got beat up by a girl. A girl with boobs and vagina. You're a weak man. With boobs, yeah.

And vagina. She hit you with her boob. That teacher. Be ashamed. and vagina she hit you with her boob that teacher be ashamed do you know if you hit someone in the face with your boob it does make a sore noise that's just like the rules of feminism uh there's also a moment where bianca whenever she's in her French lessons with Cameron, asks him in French, when are you going to ask me out? Because heaven forbid she ask him out. Why can't a woman just ask a man out?

Yeah, Sandy Hawkins, bitch. Let's do it. There's one more moment between the two sisters I wanted to cite before I launched myself into space. And that was, and I don't even know where I fall on it I just think it's interesting that it happened was Julia Stiles says to Alex Mack you don't always have to be who they want you to be you know and then her saying like you don't need to dress or act in a way to get guys to like you fair point and then her sister responds by saying I happen to like to be adored like i happened and and i kind of like that too where it's like it's almost similar to the scene

between like kat and mr morgan where i'm like ah they're both kind of right where it's not wrong to like i'm now i feel defensive i'm like it's not wrong to like attention all the time right uh but it's not you know it's like she's not doing anything wrong by doing that. But also it's like, I don't know, it seems like a nice older sister moment to be like, oh, you know, if you don't want to do this, it's not like required that you do it. Right. It doesn't result in anything in the story. No, they keep doing the same bullshit right after.

They will do the same bullshit no matter what. But at least they said it. That's like the whole deal with this movie is like they say a lot of feminist stuff and none of it has any impact on the story.

Yeah, they don't do it. They just say it. Actions, ladies. Come on. They're like, this is all the patriarchy would let us get away with. It's just like a few nods

at us being free and owning ourselves but also not doing those things. It's gotta sound good on a t-shirt because then men can make money off of it. And that works. I would like to think that after this movie ends and she graduates from high school and she goes off to Sarah Lawrence.

Meanwhile, Heath Ledger stays in Seattle and like maybe, I don't know. He's Frasier's intern. And they never see each other again. Like, I feel like they just, you know, they dated maybe for that summer. And then she's like, all right, I'm going to go off to study biochemistry. Yeah. To become a woman in STEM. Woman in STEM?

That's my fantasy. I think Alfred Molina would have done a better job than Paola Puttanesca. But ultimately, he would never accept a part that would be so reductive towards young women. That's it that's my feeling on that's the alfred maluma beginning middle and end for this movie uh does anyone have any other final thoughts about 10 things i hate about you no it just it just left me really wanting things in high school that I would never get. Yes. I mean, this movie has a whole slew of problems.

One of them being that, you know, he manipulates her throughout the entire movie. And like so many people are complicit in this manipulation where like Kat's sister is in on the whole thing where she's like, yeah, help me do this. And that's also not realistic because since when can high schoolers keep secrets? Right. Like ever.

This would be busted within 12 hours. For sure. Like the whole school knew and they just didn't tell her. Right. There's no way. There's no way. So he's manipulating her. And I would say the manipulation isn't as bad as we see in She's All That, but it's still inexcusable that he's accepting money.

And then, of course, does not apologize for it. He bribes her with a guitar. So he takes the money that the guy gave him to date Kat, gives her a guitar with that money. Yeah, broke into her car. Yeah, right. Broke into her vehicle and left a guitar. Also, he only knows she likes guitars

because he was stalking her. Stalking her at the guitar center. Yeah, because he followed her at the guitar center. That's the only reason he knows about this is because he was literally, like, hanging out in the bushes stalking her. Then he broke into her car for this romantic gesture. And that, like, reinforces another thing

that I feel like, you know, you tell young men this enough and it just becomes a part of their reality where it's like, oh, you can substitute being emotionally honest with yourself and others by purchasing things or doing nothing at all and just assuming people will go along with it. There's so many moments where he has to redeem himself

in the movie because he has fucked up so badly. Some of those times it makes sense and some of it doesn't. But the grand gesture of the song singing in front of the whole school the buying of the guitar and it's like like he's doing this to redeem himself but he's not verbally apologizing and he shouldn't have manipulated her in the first place which the movie fails to acknowledge right but uh yeah so it's just oh man one of these teen romps where everybody i love i love a good romp but i don't know i i don't want i i i still i liked the movie god damn it right it's also a very expensive gift you know yeah how much high school was it like

i honestly i just got rid of my worst boyfriend's shitty acoustic guitar this year because I'm like, yeah, this kind of has some value to it. Yeah,

I'm like, I have some asshole's stuff. Did you sell it or did you throw it away? I just left it outside and I put a sticky note on it that said

this used to belong to an asshole. You can have it. Oh my God. A cursed guitar. That's a movie, Jamie. The cursed guitar. That's a movie, Jamie. The cursed guitar. It's my good luck Chuck guitar.

What a time to be alive. What a time indeed. Well, should we discuss whether or not the movie passes the Bechdel test? Oh, yeah. It does. It does. Here are some of my favorite passes, if I may. There's some funny ones. Bianca says, there's a difference between like and love.

Like, I like my Skechers, but I love my Prada backpack. What a plug. Right. Go Skechers. They say, how can we get people wearing these ugly ass shoes again? 99, that's like peak Skechers.

It was. And Saconis. Yes. Ooh, Saconis. Saconis and Skechers just notorious ugly ass shoes Skechers

they used to have those you remember they had those little pockets and kids were like what's it for but they were for condoms I'm like

who's keeping a condom in their shoe anyways what Sophie was keeping a condom in her shoe Sophie raised her hand can't have a bag

can't possibly have a bag no no no right yeah like hey get my wet shoe condom. Let's do this. Let me shake it off real quick. You ready for me to put this in your orifices?

I know that this is going on the most sensitive part of your body, but it's been in my shoe for three years. I hope that's fine. Anyway, sorry. So Bianca says that and then Chastity says, but I love my Skechers. And then Bianca says,

that's because you don't have a Prada backpack. So great, great capitalism happening there. Very, very nice. There's a scene with Miss Perky, Allison Janney's character, where she's writing

horny erotic fanfic in her office on work hours she was so horny so horny for the kids she was frothing it was horrifying she says judith what's another word for engorged judith says i'll look it up miss perky says swollen turg. Cat comes in and says tumescent. And then Miss Perky talks to her about how she's a heinous bitch. There is mention of a testicle retrieval operation, which I found to be very funny. Yeah, so that's pretty much that conversation. But parts of that pass. Chastity says, I know you can be overwhelmed and I know you can be underwhelmed, but can you just be whelmed? And Bianca says, I think you can in Europe. I know you can be underwhelmed, but can you just be whelmed?

And Bianca says, I think you can in Europe. A lot of dumb girl exchanges past the back. They're actually all like asking questions like, what is, what is, what worries me? Exactly. Does anybody know synonyms for sex stuff? Another one of my favorites is Kat saying they're at the party bianca wait and bianca says please do not address me in public so it's like don't talk to me bitch there's a similar funny one in she's all that where there's the one that passes the bechdel test it's like i think you should kill

yourself and the girl's like that's mean but it passes a lot. It passes between Kat and Bianca, between Bianca and Chastity, between Kat and Miss Perky, between Kat and her friend Mandela, who we didn't talk about. But I feel like she's hardly worth mentioning because she loves William Shakespeare. And that's just fine. Good for her. Good for her. She's a scholar. Let's rate the movie on our nipple scale, shall we? Let's do it.

You give it nipples for how well you think the movie treats women. Zero to five nipples. I doth giveth this filmeth. Yes. One and a half beer flavored nipples. Because that is a quote from the movie. Sounds gross. Give me a Mike's Hard flavored nipples because that is a quote from the movie sounds gross give me a mike's hard flavor what kind of like we're talking about ipa how happy is the nipples because if it's a i've declared myself too old for course light congratulations

god damn it i'm gonna say it's like's like a chocolate stout nipple for me. So one and a half. We already talked about how manipulative the characters are to each other. How the guy who's doing most of the manipulation, the two guys who are like behind this whole scheme are the ones who end up with the girls at the end. They don't have to apologize. You just get a guitar and everything's fine. Take a girl sailing and she'll love you forever.

I know from experience. Awesome. This is a very white movie. The few characters who are people of color are mostly just kind of scenery in this very white story. I do like that teacher character, Mr. Morgan. I stand for him, but he does not get much screen time. Yeah, so it's just so many problems. I still enjoyed watching it, which hurts my heart to say, but I find it funny. The funny parts are fun. Yeah, it's just, I'm glad I didn't watch this movie more as a teen

because I think it would have gaslit me a lot and made me like really misinterpret a lot of things and really influence what I thought romance was supposed to be and what I thought relationships were supposed to be. And I'm glad that I wasn't consuming a lot of that type of media at that age. Instead, I was watching, you know, movies where action heroes punch a bunch of guys and then there's only one woman in the story and she doesn't get to do anything. So all media is terrible.

If this movie McFucked you when you were younger, let us know. We're interested in hearing what is the movie that fucked you up the most. Right. So, yeah, one and a half nipples. And I will give one to Kat and one half nipple to her friend Mandela. Cool. I will. Yeah, I'm going to give it a one and a half

two. That seems about right. Yeah, the thing I think I like least about this movie is that it kind of makes a concerted effort to make it so that there's no feminist argument that you can make by there being like, well, but this character is a feminist

and she says this and she says this and she says this and it's like that's all done with the assumption that you're not going to challenge the fact that the movie is about her being stripped of those things and having her change and then ultimately challenging men and authority in general less. Yeah. In order to be happy. So plus, I mean, you made a bunch of great points. But it's a funny movie. The dad character, Paolo Pudinesco really blew it in this one. He really was just like, I look at teenagers' vaginas all day,

and then I get home and I can keep controlling them. It's all I can think about. He's a little tween badge. His life revolves around tween badge. His life revolves around tween badge and it's disturbing. Can we please never say that phrase again? It's an awful phrase. It's actually our merch now.

So I'll give it a nip and a half and I'm going to give the half to Bianca because I feel like there's more there. I do like that she, at the very least, comes around on that Joey character and she's like, oh, he's a vapid

idiot. I'm going to go after this guy who is setting up a whole scheme, a whole Ponzi scheme to make her $50. The scammers really win in this movie. They really do. Everyone. Her best friend is not trying to be her friend at all. He's never actually interested in this movie. They really do. Everyone. Her best friend is conning her, like, not trying to be

her friend at all. He's never actually interested in real friendship. He just wants to be with her but thinks she's too hot. He's like, how do I get close to this fine ass bitch?

I'll be her friend. Rubbing his hands to get over. Drive her around. Yeah, he lies about, he lies about being able to speak French

just so he can tutor her. That's crazy. Yeah. And she's so dumb, she never will realize that I don't speak French. Like he's on Google Translate the entire time that they're together. Hold on, hold on, hold on. She's like, parlez-vous? Parlez what? Hold on.

Sexy. You sexy dumb woman. Let me look this up. And then I'll give my other nipple to... What's his name? Joseph Gordon-Levitt's old ass friend. He gets the other one. He needs it.

He's suffering. I like David Krumholz. If only the old ass friend had hooked up with the guidance counselor who was so horny for kids. He's like, my secret is, I'm your age. And then she's like, good enough for me. She's like, okay, I have 500 pages of really

horny fan fiction. Let's do this. Is she also so horny because she's old? And it's like, now that you're over 45, you're useless. We didn't get into that. Yeah that does seem like a slightly ageist thing or like a woman

there's like a lot of times like when there's like a woman in a professional position it's like oh she's she's so single that she's demented. Like when older women are single. She's throwing herself into her work because she can't get no dick. See, I think we're filling in the blanks.

I think she is in several polyamorous relationships. I think that she just is very sex positive and very horny and embracing her sexuality. I hope so. We're just going to have to say that that's what's happening. I'm all with that. I'm good with that.

I remember the first time I saw an older woman having sex on TV. It was Viola Davis getting her box ate on How to Get Away with Murder. Hell yeah. And I was like, oh, fuck, I don't want to watch my auntie get her box ate. But then I was like, shit, I'm going to be an auntie one day, and I'm definitely going to still be getting my box ate. So I was like, you go, Viola.

You get your box ate on here by this fine-ass man. Every week I want you to just be fucking in your office. Cannot be the first, the cold open to every episode of Viola Davis fucking on the stack of files. She's like, I'm gonna get you off for this murder, but first, I'm gonna

fuck this fine ass man. She's so unprofessional in that show. It's fucking nuts. She's so unprofessional and I love it. It's so good. They have her fucking everywhere. She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a deposition, but let love it. It's so good. They had her fucking everywhere. She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a deposition, but let's fuck in the courthouse. She's like, but first, I got to fuck the judge.

Before my deposition. He's like, we need to go to recess. She's like, yes, we do. Say what you will about network TV, but it is fucking wild. Oh, yeah. Shonda's done so much for network TV. She let me watch analingus between two gay men and I said

yes this better be primetime network TV analingus yes us and all of our mom's friends are all watching it which is kind of a miracle it's amazing it's so amazing well Lacey thank you so much for being here how many how

much fun do you give it oh right oh uh i give it i also give it one and a half nips but one of the nips is like almost could be mistaken to be a black person's nipple yeah that's how much that's how much like diversity was in this movie that i was like it was 90s diversity like they make fun of it and not another teen movie where it's like the black guy only says, that is whack. But even as they're making fun of it in that movie, they're doing it because the black guy literally only says, that is whack, the whole movie. I think I rewatched that movie. It's like a conundrum, like a paradox. Yeah, they do the joke, but they also subscribe to the problem.

The problem. Yeah. And I feel like that's what this movie does. It talks about feminism and woke shit, but then it also tells you with the actions that, no, come on now, be a happy bitch who shows her

titties. That's all what men want, is happy women who dress cute and show their boobies more. Smile more, show your tits more. You're gonna be a shrew until you get some good dicking. Yeah. And then you'll be happy. I'm sorry. I did just find out that Joseph Gordon-Levitt's

old ass friend, David Krumholtz, plays Bernard the Elf in the Santa Claus series. What? Yes, he does. He was my crush. This is confusing. I have to go home. Alright, well, we'll let you go. Laci, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having us.

This has been so much fun. Where can people follow you online? Is there anything you'd like to plug? You can follow me at D-I-V-A-L-A-C-I on all platforms, the Twitters, the Instagrams, all of the things of the like. I'll be in Insecure Season 3, the third episode, literally for like two seconds. Oh, that's awesome. You can join me for two seconds, but I'm in the like. I'll be in Insecure season three, the third episode, literally for like two seconds. Oh, that's awesome.

Enjoy me for two seconds when I'm in the trailer. I'm that black girl. And then watch Pop TV. Watch Pop. Watch the network Pop. We'll do it. I'll be on there soon.

We'll do it. Just really tune in and keep that network afloat, guys. Just turn it on and keep it on. You don't even gotta watch. That's what I did for Luke Cage.

I would turn that shit on and get in the shower. That shit was boring, but I watched it because I support black art. Yeah. Just stream me. Don't watch. You just have to have it on. Yeah.

You can follow us on social media as well at Bechtelcast. You can go to our website, Bechtelcast.com. We've got our merch there. We've got our episodes there. There's all kinds of goodies to explore. You can subscribe to our Matreon. It's $5 a month. You get two bonus episodes every single month.

And it's a damn good special. Hey, Jamie and Lacey, there aren't 10 things I hate about you. In fact, there's nothing I hate about you. Wow. And Sophie. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. And then Caitlin just took out a scroll in regards to Sophie.

And she hit Sophie with her titty. I hate you. Swing. And on that note. Sophie and Andy, I love you too. I love you. Shwing. And on that note. Sophie and Andy, I love you too. I love everybody. Aristotle, love you. Love you, Aristotle.

Aristotle's literally wearing his feminist icon shirt today, and it looks so good. Okay. All right. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. time bye bye Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on

October 16th 2017 was assassinated crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one woman wiki leaks she exposed the culture of crime

and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state listen to crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Our second season is airing right now, so you can catch up on our conversations that are intimate and often hilarious.

Listen to Table for Two with Bruce Bozzi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carrie Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry.

Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.