The Bechdel Cast - 13 Going On 30 with Melissa Lozada-Oliva

Episode Date: May 30, 2019

Jamie and Caitlin make a wish that they will get to chat with special guest Melissa Lozada-Oliva about 13 Going on 30, and their wish magically comes true! Recorded live at the Bell House in Brooklyn!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @ellomelissa on Twitter.  While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hi. You know who it is. It's us. You're about to hear our 13 Going on 30 episode that we recorded live in New York City. Ever heard of it? With special guest Melissa Lozada-Oliva. Yes. And we also did a 13 Going on 30 episode that we recorded live in D.C. We say pretty much the same thing during both shows, but we also wanted to release part of the DC episode, like the highlights, some parts that we dug a little deeper into the discussion, and then the audience questions also from that episode. So if you want to give that a listen, we're releasing that on our Patreon, aka Matreon. you don't have to be a subscriber to hear it

we're just kind of making it accessible to everyone if you want to get a little deeper into it so we'll tweet out the link for that and also if you go to patreon.com slash Bechtelcast it'll be available there yeah it'll be somewhere just look for it yeah just find it so that's a bonus if you want it

in the meantime please enjoy our live New York City show with Melissa yes on the beckdel cast the questions asked if movies have women in them are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the beckdel cast Hi! What's up, Brooklyn? Welcome! I've always wanted to say that. What's up, Brooklyn?

Yeah. You did a great job. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Welcome. Yes, welcome to the Bechdel cast. It us. I'm Caitlin.

Sorry for that weird thing I just said. I'm Jamie. I'm the host. I'm the host. I'm the host. I'm the host. I'm the host. I'm the host. I'm. Us. I'm Caitlin. Sorry for that weird thing I just said. I'm Jamie.

Yeah, we're so stoked to be here at the Bell House. Our first time here. Yeah. How are you? We haven't seen each other in like a week. I know. Which is longer than years. You have bangs now.

I have bangs. Thank you for the cheer for my bangs that's correct the story with my bangs not that anyone asked is that my my boyfriend and my dog this doesn't pass the bechdel test i was just gonna say this might have been a good example but no listen i, I hate feminism. My boyfriend and my dog are in Wisconsin for three months for a job he has, and so I reacted by becoming my own dog. And I have truly the exact same haircut as my dog. He has floppy ears, and I'm actually my own boyfriend and my own dog, and that's my dog. He has floppy ears and I'm my own, I'm actually my own boyfriend and my own dog

and that's my feminism. Just kidding, I'm miserable. Everything's great. Well, some of that passed the Bechdel test, I think. My dog's a man. I know.

And he's a cock or spaniel. I know. What's the Bechdel test? It's a media test you apply to, I don't know, for our sake, movies. Dog anecdotes. That requires that a movie has two named female identifying characters who talk to each other about something other than a man.

Yeah. Clap if you have listened to the Vectelcast before. This is great. Awesome. That is a trick called free applause. Curious, clap if you have not listened to the show before and you have been dragged here.

No shame. Okay, trash, canceled, bad. Hates women, got it, interesting. Cool, well, we just always want to shout out the people who drag people in their lives to the show. They are the true soldiers. So if you haven't heard the show before, we take

a specific movie every episode and analyze it through the lens of how does it treat and portray women. For most movies, if you've listened to the show before, bad. Bad almost universally, always

bad. I'm so excited for the movie we're talking about tonight. It was one of my favorite movies growing up. We're talking about 13 going on 30. Peak Jennifer Garner, I would argue. What was that superhero? Juno. Was the correct answer.

I was trying to think of Daredevil. Wait, was it Daredevil? No, Elektra. Elektra, yes. That was the bad movie I couldn't think of the name of. That joke wasn't worth the journey. Thank you, though. But yeah, I'm so excited,

and I'm really, really, really excited for our guest tonight. Let's bring her out. Yes, she is a poet. She's the author of Paluda. She's the co-host of Say More Podcast. It's Melissa Lozada Oliva. Yay! Welcome.

Hi. Hi, everybody. What's up? Hello. Nothing. I made my hair look like I was one of the six chicks. Yeah. But there's only six chicks.

If there was seven, something, something, something. That goes against math or I don't know. Something. Classic Matt. Oh, Matt. Yeah, I was watching this and I was like, this is when I started only dating people named Matt. Even if their name wasn't Matt, their name was somehow Matt. It was, yeah, spiritually updated a lot of Matt's.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That feels about right. Thank you so much for being here. We're so excited you're here. Yeah.

What is your history with this movie? I think that my history with this movie is my developing unrealistic expectations for the men I was seeing. More so that none of them were Mark Ruffalo. I was watching that and I was like, oh, this is when it started. That's my only cornerstone is Mark Ruffalo. So I guess I don't pass the Bechdel test in my life. Yeah.

Yeah. I think this movie came out 2003 or four. I think four. Four. Okay. I'm a numbers person. Yeah, at the end you're like class of 2004 holding up the sign. Oh, right.

Right. At the part where she's like, here's the idea for the magazine. Right. Prom. All I know. The only history I have. White girls at prom. Yeah. Cool. magazine right prom all i know the only history i have white girls at prom yeah cool um so it was like the perfect time for this movie to come out and we're the same age so i feel like it was it

was like peak like any movie that's about teenagers is directed at 10 year olds basically yeah yeah yeah yeah and so when this movie i was like ready to take everything that happened in this movie as complete gospel and what I wanted in my life. I was especially affected by the fact that she was dating a hockey player. Oh, right. Because my dad was a hockey writer. I'm sorry, brag. Local publication. If anyone subscribes to the Patriot Ledger, if you don't, that's why print is dead and my dad's going to lose his job.

But he is a hockey writer and he always used to be like, someday I'm going to hook you up with a hockey player, even though you didn't have the power to do so. But I didn't know that when I was 10. I was like, my dad's all powerful and I'm going to fuck a hockey player too. And so I viewed her relationship like I would always be like, are hockey players really like that? I'm going to have to tell them to stop stripping Ice Ice Baby.

Oh, I just got that. That he was stripping to an ice related song and that he's a hockey player. Wow. But no, I mean, Oh. That he was stripping to an ice-related song. Guys, ice. And that he's a hockey player. Oh, my God. But no, I mean, I saw this movie in the theaters, loved it.

Yeah, me too. Loved it. What about you, Caitlin? I did not see this movie for the first time until about a year ago, and I watched it because I was like, we'll probably do this on the Bechdel cast someday. I better familiarize myself with it now and I was right so congratulations first of all a year later here we are but yeah I hadn't seen it

it was a little in 2004 I was a senior in high school so I had like kind of aged just a few years older than the target demographic, so I wasn't super interested in seeing it. Also, I have a pretty big aversion to rom-coms. They're not my genre. But I enjoyed this movie. It's cute. It's cute.

Man, I got fully skull-fucked by all these movies. I feel like this is sort of the tail end of a very specific time in rom-coms. Where this came out the year after Made in Manhattan. This is kind of when J-Lo's starting to transition out of rom-coms.

At this point, she's doing Monster-in-Law and then she's kind of tapping out. Right. Right. I mean, shout out to the J-Lo reference in this movie. She's on the cover of Poise and Sparkle. Sparkle.

Yeah. She was like it when this movie came out. Like, oh, great. How long before the Devil Wears Prada came out? That was 2007?

2008? Seven or eight. Yeah, something like that. You can tell this movie is pre-recession based on where everyone lives. Right. This movie movie is pre-recession based on where everyone lives. Right.

This movie is fully pre-recession. Yeah. But it also, I mean, I went back to, as I usually do, I went back to the original coverage of this movie. And it's 2004, so women are not allowed to write and print yet. So every review, like the Rotten Tomatoes of 13 Going on 30 is very skewed because it's written by old dudes who are just like, I don't fucking get this.

Like Roger Ebert, my nemesis, he gave this horrible review. He's just like, what? She's grabbing her titties. He's just dumbass. All the reviews around this movie, they basically say that it is the same thing

as Big. Which, it is not. It's not. Isn't Big creepier? Big leans more into kids kissing adults. He has sex with an adult woman. A 12-year-old boy. But mainly Big goes from like a 12-year-old

becoming a 30-year-old in the same era where this is like a flash forward into the future. And then the other criticism was that it was too much like Freaky Friday with Lindsay Lohan and Jamie Lee Curtis, which we will cover over my... Absolutely. But that's like a body swap. That's also different.

I don't know. I think that the main thread is the iconic moment when the person looks in the mirror and is like, what? Yeah. They're like, no. Yeah. I like that.

She grabs her boobs. She grabs her boobs so much so much okay well we'll get into this more but i would argue and i'm like curious how everyone feels about this but we see jenna rank at 13 for the first 15 minutes of this movie and then we see her flash forward into jennifer garner's body i. I think that Jennifer Garner's acting like she's nine years old. I don't think she's at like there are some things she does and I'm like a 13 year old would know how to conduct themselves. I don't know. I was like why is the marker for you being like a teen that you're very clumsy like you're falling over all the time. Yeah because rom-coms have to have a beautiful woman

pratfalling all over the place. All over New York City. Should I do the recap? Yeah. Sure. Okay. So we meet Jenna Rink. Big time fashion magazine editor.

Also, her last name... Okay, another thing I just got. Her last name is Rink. Oh, my God. Hockey player. And it's like hockey rink. Oh, my God. I didn't catch on that. Okay. Yeah, what's the... her last name okay another thing i just got her last name is rink and it's like hockey rink oh my god i didn't catch on there's a yeah what's that so the writers are marked yeah they're thinking

hard galactic braining where is the zamboni representation in this movie she should have been jenna zamboni would have been a better movie. Okay, so we meet her. It is the late 80s. It's her 13th birthday. Her best friend is Matt Flamhaff. Flam-off. Flam-half.

I don't know. Wow. A last name I've never heard. But she wants to be friends with this group of popular girls called the Six Chicks. Their leader is Tom Tom. Yes, Tom Tom. Was that like Tom Tom Club? Is that why she was?

I don't understand the reference. Also in the Six Chicks is both Brie Larson. What? Yeah. Yeah. Brie Larson at like 13 or 14 is in this movie. And also Ashley Benson, who's in Pretty Little Liars, is also in The Six Chicks. The Six Chicks, a star studded scene of non-participants. Mark Ruffalo just found out Brie Larson was in that movie when she was 13. And all the clickbait surrounding it was like, Mark Ruffalo is so touched.

But you can just see him recognize his age in real time. He's like, oh, I am 50 years old. It's a fun slip. He's always like, he reacted the way he seems to react to everything, which is just like, confused reacted the way he seems to react to everything, which is just like confused. Like, oh, really? That's what he does through the whole movie. Is Mark Ruffalo stupid?

If you met him in person, he might be stupid. I think that like, I might be stupid. I think that, like, I don't know. I mean, even with his character, it's like any guy that's like, yeah, I love the talking heads and then just stop talking.

Yeah. Like, stupid. Right. Stupid person. Okay, moving on. So she wants to be a part of the six chicks to the extent that she agrees to be a part of the Six Chicks to the extent that she agrees to do a school project for them

so that they'll have time to come to her 13th birthday party. Basically, she'll do anything to be cool and popular and to look like the women in Poise magazine. Right, ever heard of it? She sees an article in Poise about how being 30 is great. And she's like, I want to be 30. Caitlin, say what it says. It doesn't say 30 is great.

It says 30 and flirty and thriving. Yes. It's exciting. Thriving. I think, and in the context of this movie, thriving is so critical. Yeah. Because if she hadn't specified thriving,

we'll get into what the other timelines could have been. Just being 30 and flirty is, as we know as older people now it's not enough you must one must also be 30 flirting and struggling students yes story of my life um so her friend matt comes over for her birthday party and brings this dream house that he made for her that is so elaborate. It's so elaborate. How long did it take? He said three weeks. He says three weeks.

Oh, right, right. He must have been working at it 12 hours a day, every day for three weeks. Sweating. But if he bought it pre-made and then just filled in some stuff. Even so, like. Yeah, the cutouts, the figurines, the bathtub. Yeah, Rick Springfield is in there. I honestly don't know who that is.

But I kept calling him in my notes throughout. I called him Rick Springberg. And then I double-checked and corrected the mistake and then announced it. Jim Gaffigan is like Rick Springsteen. That happens in the movie, right? Oh, Jim Gaffigan. Yeah.

It's so funny because all of the people, like young people who are like, no one quite matches up with like young person growing into older person. But like the disservice of growing into Jim Gaffigan is egregious. I think... I feel like Jim Gaffigan's never going to be on the Bechdel cast. I'm not concerned. Oh, my God.

I think this movie does a much better job at matching the younger counterparts to the adults than, say, 17 again, when we're supposed to believe that zach efron turns into matthew perry it's like the director of 17 again must have secretly hated zach efron to be like no you know this is all gonna fucking fall apart Okay. So he brings her this dream house, and it's covered in wishing dust. Right.

Well, he brings the wishing dust seal. And then he sprinkles it onto the house. Without her consent. True. What's the lore of the wishing dust? Did he get it at a magic shop? Or did a mysterious old lady give it to him? There's a lot of conspiracy theories I've found online

that have ideas about the wishing dust. Oh my gosh. I want to know. Yeah, there's a lot. Okay, so there's wishing dust and he sprinkles it on the house. The six chicks show up to the party and Jenna's trying to seem as cool as possible. But then the six chicks ditch the party.

And lock her in a closet because they say it's going to be seven minutes in heaven with the man who will become Jim Gaffigan. But they lock her in a closet, steal her homework and leave. Right. So she bursts out and Matt has just brought his Casio over

and she's like, you suck. I hate you. I hate me. I want to be 30 and flirty and thriving. It makes people feel good to say it out loud. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Stay in front of the mirror.

Power pose. Yeah. And then some wishing dust sprinkles on her and then the scene fades out and then some wishing dust sprinkles on her and then the scene fades out and then it fades back up and she wakes up and she is Jennifer Garner

I appreciated in the design of like the scarf becomes her sleeping mask design becomes her dress design someone thought in this movie which I appreciated the like weird design becomes her sleeping mask design becomes her dress design. Someone thought in this movie, which I appreciated. The weird design was like a continuing thing.

Beautiful. She's been instantly transported not only into the body of a 30-year-old woman while still having the mind of a 13-year-old girl. She is now in the year 2004. She is now in the year 2004. She is thriving.

She's got... No one explains the Iraq War to her. At any point in this movie. It's after 9-11. Yeah, post-9-11. Do we know exactly where she was living? I think New Jersey. She would notice the Twin Towers. 9-11 and the Iraq War don't matter.

Doesn't matter. At no point do we see her ask, who was the president? No. Also, this means that she skipped over Shrek. She missed the whole boat. She didn't see it. Right. She missed the whole boat. She didn't see it. There's so much she hasn't seen.

All she cares about is like, where is Mark Ruffalo? That's what I care about. So she's got a boyfriend. She's got a nice apartment in New York City. Where's that? I price checked her, because the name of her building.

Oh, yeah, they have it when she looks at her envelopes. It's a real building. Yeah. That apartment cost $3 million. Of course. Oh. Magazine editors don't make that. Yeah.

But pre, I mean, like, pre-recession. True. She's chilling. Yeah, she's good. So she is freaking out because she's like, why do I look like Jennifer Garner? This is weird. Oh, no.

This sucks. I look like Jennifer Garner. My insanely toned arms, what? So she runs outside and a woman is there who's like, I'm your best friend. It's Judy Greer. It's Judy Greer. You run outside. It's Judy Greer. She says

she's your best friend. What do you do? Get in the car, yes or no? She's like, we gotta go to work. You're an important editor at Poise Magazine. And Jenna's like we gotta go to work you're an important editor at poise magazine and jenna's like i love poise magazine so no one in this movie is concerned enough about their friend that is clearly sick they're just like she's so hungover

have you ever been so hungover you don't know who you are yes but it is worn off within a day it is crazy the lack of concern for jenna's state of mind throughout this movie so they get to the office. Andy Serkis is her boss. Right. Yes. I'm sorry. I love Andy Serkis. This is post Gollum, by the way. Andy Serkis

famously is Gollum and nothing else. No. I love, I stan Andy Serkis so much. He's great. Iy circus so much great i love him so much i love that he occasionally every couple years is like i have to dance and i need my face physical like he's a good dancer i love i love him um okay so they're rushed into a meeting about how another magazine, Sparkle, is like stealing Poise's ideas. No.

Right. I love, and this is yet another, the trope of magazine editor in rom-coms is alive and well in this movie. And also just like the trope that for me, most recently ticks with like the Gilmore Girls revival of a very like weird understanding of how magazines actually work. Yeah.

Of like, this one stole our idea, and now we're out of business. You're like, no, it's 2004. Print is already dead. But sure, they're stealing your idea. Okay, so she's still freaking out. She tracks down her best friend Matt Flamhaff, They're stealing your idea. Okay, so she's still freaking out. She tracks down her best friend, Matt Flamhaff. And she shows up at his place, and it's Mark Ruffalo.

Hot. So hot and stupid. Hot. I mean. It is Mark Ruffalo. He's like, who are you? This is all I say. So he's like, what are you doing here? We aren't friends anymore.

And she's like, here's my predicament. And he's also not that concerned. No, he's like, you're on drugs. You're on drugs. Have you been smoking weed? Yeah, are you high? Another person who, he's like, I'm a photographer enter my 5 000 square foot apartment village apartment and then he's like i'm not that successful

and also my hot take is that matt flamhaff is a shitty photographer. If you're getting hired off of your high school yearbook, you're a bad photographer. I mean, the photos he takes for poise look like shit. That's his specialty. Poor Wendy.

Okay, so he's like, we're not friends anymore. You became cool and popular in high school, and that's why we didn't talk anymore. Jenna learns that she also distanced herself from her family, that her best friend currently and colleague at Poise is Tom Tom from The Six Chicks. Judy Greer is Tom Tom.

What do you do? Get in the car. There's the scene where she goes to a work party and livens it up by dancing to Thriller. Oh, man. That's the scene. That is the scene. And then he comes.

He shows up. And he comes for some reason he shows up and he comes for some reason on the floor of the dance floor we all come he does he comes

we come yeah that scene was really hard to watch this time around I mean this is so embarrassing it takes her so long

to get people out on the dance floor yeah and she's just like doing can you imagine shimmying yourself over to your childhood friend? And then there's that moment

where he's like, I can't do this. I'm too attracted to you. And like leaves. It's like I'm too horny by your third one. He's like, I gotta go. I'm engaged. Oh my god. Oh yeah. I forget if it's a twist that he has been engaged I gotta go. I'm engaged. Oh my God. Oh yeah, I forget. It's a twist that he has been engaged the entire time.

And the wedding is tomorrow. So fucking stupid. I feel like historically this also goes along with people I've dated. Like, oh, wait, you're actually seeing someone else? Matt or other Matt? I'm going to try to get through this very quick because we've been talking about the recap

for a hundred years. Okay, so things are falling apart at work. Sparkle is outselling Poise. They're talking about having to do a redesign of Poise. And then Jenna overhears that Lucy, a.k.a. Tom Tom, a.k.a. Judy Greer, is

planning to stab her in the back. And Jenna also learns that she's apparently a horrible person. It takes her a very long time to figure it out. Having an affair. Yeah. Oh, yeah, she's fucking her co-worker's husband at work. Yeah, he calls her Pookie.

Behind frosted glass? Yeah. Gross. So she's bad, and she's like, I'm not going to be a bad person anymore. So she goes and visits her parents. She hires Matt to take horrible photos. And then they're vibing. They kiss.

Yeah. Is this spoilers? Did you guys not see it? A lot of people gasped. They do a Lion King thing where they leap into a sex position and then there's a love. They're on a playground for children. For children. Hot.

Which she is one. And then they fly on top of each other after soaring through the air from being on swings. And then they like land on top of each other. And then they're like, oh, you have arm hair. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. Is that not a convention? I feel like also that's something I say.

That's so fun to give like a man the lowest common denominator compliment. You have arm hair. They're like, yeah. Okay, so then meanwhile, she's working very hard on her pitch for the redesign, which is horrible. It's not good. But not as bad as Judy Greer's,

which is horrible and disturbing. Is it like fashion suicide? I'm just like, we need to be researching bullies. What's going on with bullies? They're growing up to be dangerous adults. Yeah. And then Lucy like steals Matt's photos and Jenna's designs and takes them to Sparkle and becomes their new editor-in-chief.

Via snail mail. And then Jenna learns that she was the one who was leaking ideas to Sparkle. Also via snail mail. It was 2004. They had email. They had cell phones. Sometimes. There was no Wi-Fi.

Snail mail was still a thing. I don't know why I'm defending 2004. So then she's like, I suck, and I have to fix this. And she hightails it to New Jersey because Matt is in the middle of his wedding. Oh, she goes to Wendy's apartment. And Wendy's like, hi, me again. And she's like, the wedding is tomorrow. Oh, my God.

Because that's why she's there. Wendy's always like, I'm Wendy, the fiance, and I'm a weather woman, in case you forgot. Sorry, not weather woman, weather person. The wedding is tomorrow. And then, yeah, she takes the Long Island, she takes the Long Island Railroad. She goes to New Jersey. To New Jersey. Whatever, New Jersey Transit.

I don't fucking live here. She takes a commuter rail of sorts to the correct area. And tries to hashtag stop the wedding. The way Matt Mark was talking about Wendy was traumatizing. She was like, are you in love? He was like, I would say we're together. And it's like, you know someone has said that about would say we're together and it's like you know someone has said that about you yeah and then he's like anyone who feels like that's so romantic it's like no

you are on the wrong side of that interaction at some point you've been like i would say we're together yeah so yeah she tries to be like i love you and he's like well i think you're great but here's the dollhouse that's been in my room for 17 years why does he still have it because he's a warlock that's because he's he adds that gif that famous gif says gif i'm sorry guys he looks down he's like i've always loved you yes and then he's like here take this dollhouse back she goes outside she has the dollhouse. There's still wishing dust on it. The wind stirs it up, I guess.

It blows on her. And then suddenly she's back as a 13-year-old. She's 17 again. She's 17. She's Zac Efron again. And then she tackles Matt with her face surprise kiss she surprise kisses for sure the young boy yeah he's like and then she's like come on we're gonna be late smash cut to their wedding when they're 30 again where do they go to college is Is that what they're laid to? Their wedding? I guess.

Are they laid to the rest of their lives? The stairway is the future. And then they move into a pink house together. Which is the doll house. It is Jenna's dream house that they move into. And that's why they do that. It's dumb, but it resonated with me.

She's like, do you want another candy from the 80s, Mr. Fall House? What the fuck is his name? Fall Staff? Fall Staff. No, that's Shakespeare. No, Flam Half. Flam Half. Flam Half?

Flam Half. The last two lines of the movie are calling, or when they are calling each other Mr. and Mrs. Flam half. And we're like, yes, marriage is the goal. Yeah, forgot. That's the movie. That's the movie. Yay, we did it.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you.

I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours bpm 110 120 she's terrified should we wake her up absolutely not what was that you didn't figure it out i think i need to hear you say it that was live audio

of a woman's nightmare this This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television,

iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago, when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman.

The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current. Available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something that I was thinking about this whole movie,

just because I haven't rewatched the movie in at least 10 years, watching it now being closer to 30 than 13, there's all this stuff that comes up that wouldn't otherwise. And the first thing is that all these movie premises that involve flashing into the future or to older age in some way, whether it be big or 13 going on 30

or even little that came out two weeks ago, you have to, for it to remain a comedy, flash into a future body of insane privilege. Because otherwise, it's a horror movie. No, I kept thinking that. She's like, everything isn't awesome because

you're 30. Everything is awesome because you're loaded. Upper middle class. And you can go back to your loaded family who went to the Caribbean without you. Yeah. Like, it's your own. Yeah, I mean, well, And you can go back to your loaded family who went to the Caribbean without you. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Like, it's your own. Yeah. I mean, well, the main character in Little is, like, a gaming executive. Yeah, she owns her own, like, gaming company. Jenna is a magazine editor. Like, it's like you have to be flashing forward into literally your ideal. Right. Or if you're flashing forward realistically to someone who may be struggling,

no one wants to see that movie. Jennifer Garner won't take that job. If you flash, I mean, it truly, like if Jennifer Garner came from, because in this movie, like Jenna Rink is at lowest an upper middle class white girl right right so if it's anything lower than that you could be flashing forward to a lot of different stuff like if

jenna rink flashes forward to like i'm 30 and flirty you know so many different things could happen oh sure but she has to add the addendum of thriving. Yeah. And then we get the movie. I mean, that's true for every rom-com I can think of. These are all focusing on middle to upper middle class white people and their very privileged lives. And they're like, but how will I have time for a boyfriend when I have this demanding job? And that's the plot of all of them. Right.

It has to be like low stake, high stake things. Yeah. I think these movies like Big or Little, is that one? Little's the new one with Issa Rae. Right. Where they have to work like Cinderella stories almost

where there's like this like transformation into like all of this like wonder for it to be like interesting to watch yeah yeah but i think it's boring right caitlin that's so brave of you and wow but yeah i mean it's just like there has to be you have to be in a very specific class yeah to for this movie formula that's been used a lot of times at this point to work. Like if you go below a certain income rate, this genre does not want you. They do not want you involved. Sure. For me, the biggest problem with this movie is that a romantic relationship develops when it's an adult man in an adult body with an adult brain, that's okay but he

falls in love with a woman who is in an adult body but she has the mind of a 13 year old. And she's acting like she's 9. Yes. Right. Well it just sort of strikes as like a very

like kind of like the born sexy yesterday trope that we've talked about a lot, where if you haven't heard us talk about this trope before, it's just like the sort of the movie trope where men in movies are very attracted to baby women. Right. Women who have the body of a conventionally sexy for whatever the era the movie comes out in.

Low rise jeans. Exactly. Low-rise jeans. Exactly. A 2004 sexy lady. But she acts like she's a baby. And that's hot. And it's so, with this movie, it's especially weird. Because in most Born Sexy Yesterday tropes, you've got stuff like the fifth element where it's like a woman who came to life

with a full-grown hot lady body literally yesterday. But with Matt, it's someone he knows who is acting like a baby. Yeah. And he asks no questions. He's like, oh, and she says, I'm 13 years old. And he's like, where do you live? Yeah, he's like, do you want some water?

Yeah, like it's in so many ways in this movie, like the way that everyone reacts to her is very weird and everyone in this movie should be more concerned about her than they are but matt especially like if you if you saw your best friend in seventh grade now and they were like i'm 13 you'd be like we're going to the hospital right like i'm so glad you found me let's go do you have insurance i hope so let's get help she also gives him like a shit ton of money to she like hires him to do that whole shoot yeah yeah which again is like that trope of like let me give my boyfriend a job but like i love him so much he's so talented

is that a trope that's just something i was thinking about no there is a bunch of sinister listicles written because this movie just hit its 15th anniversary, which means there's a lot of sinister listicles coming out about how actually it's great. Sinister listicles. But there's a bunch of like, she employed him, so she's in charge. I'm like, he should have 5150'd her weeks ago.

Like, why is no one looking out for this woman? Right. Or if like, if it still needs to take a like comedy approach to the narrative that unfolds, I think it would have worked better if Mark Ruffalo was like, okay, you're a 13 year old girl trapped in an adult woman's body.

Let me go get my wishing dust. I mean, the movie would be over after 20 minutes. You could have gotten that house a while ago. Or it's just like, let me help you figure this out

and navigate your job and let me make sure I don't kiss you because that's horrifying. Okay, here's where the conspiracy theory is coming in. Oh my God. There's been a lot of

extensive Reddit threads Love it. dedicated to the poor writing of this movie. So how some people feel is that the wishing dust, while viewed in the plot as arbitrary, is actually Matt's wishing dust, and he's a warlock. This theory is very good.

It is. So basically, Matt, at the beginning of the movie, he's 13. He's basically Harry Potter, but weirder. And has to go to public school in New Jersey. And he's magic. He's got this dust. He's like, okay, this dust is going to make my crush love me. And if she doesn't love me, it will punish her.

Which means in the future, that's why, because the weird plot hole of an adult man holding on to a dollhouse for 17 years bothered people. I don't know why. You know why he did it? Because he was a warlock. And that's his fucking horcrux. Yeah.

It literally is. So the theory goes that he had to hold on to it so that when Jenna finally reaches the end of her punishment of realizing, like, Christmas Carol style, that if you don't fuck me, your life is going to fucking suck. Like, you rearrange his last name. What was it? Full? It spells Baltimore.

Yeah, that's what. Exactly. Flame half Baltimore. Yeah, that's what it does. Exactly. Flam half Baltimore. So at the end, the theory goes that he had to hold on to the dollhouse and make sure there was extra wishing dust on it so that Jenna would receive her comeuppance only after she admitted she loved him. She learned her lesson. Could she receive the dollhouse

and then could be have to go to the past and fuck him. And it worked. And it worked. Warlocks. Upsetting. So that is a theory. I'm just presenting it.

It's not my idea. Looking at the story just sort of... I wish it was my idea. Just at face value looking at the story, the fact remains that the movie, I mean, it is mostly a romantic story. Although I do enjoy that just as much, I would say just as much time is devoted to her career

and her trying to put together this presentation and all of that stuff as the romantic storyline. Yeah, but I also think that there is no relationship between women in this movie that you're really rooting for as much as you would be rooting for Matt and Jenna. Sure. Because you know that... There is that sleepover scene.

Where's Becky's mom? Right. Why is Becky like, yeah, there's a woman with a six-figure salary who wants to sleep in my bed with me. I'm going to her bed. Yeah. Everyone's like, like yeah invite her like um i mean yeah you're totally right well we can talk about the female relationship or relationships in the movie but the fact remains that like the romantic storyline that unfolds

is troubling because it is a t and it would have been maybe better if it was just sort of like she realizes that she is interested in him and then he's like you seem really immature i don't like you the fact that they kiss is upsetting yeah this is weird yeah but yeah that's the biggest problem for me because it is very much like the born sexy yesterday. Or Jamie, as you said backstage. Born sexy tomorrow? Wow. Thank you, I earned that. Go Jamie.

Yeah. The whole like yearbook class of 2004 thing and like her being nine years old, something about it is so, I guess, like obsessed with nostalgia. And he like falls in love with her because of nostalgia. And like, is the movie like a desire to go back to the Reagan era? Right. It's like 1987. Scary.

I don't know. I mean, yeah, this movie is very rooted in nostalgia. But I feel like the target audience of the movie didn't fully understand. Right. Like, we were the target audience. I didn't know the Thriller dance. Yeah.

I knew the song. I didn't know who Pat Benatar was. Like, there was a lot of stuff I learned through watching this movie that I'm like, oh, I guess we care about this. Yeah. I thought the picture of Madonna was a picture of Marilyn Monroe. I did too. Yeah. Yeah. It was in black and white.

Right. I just assumed. It's confusing. I don't know, but in general I feel like this movie, you know, there is the undercurrent of, if we're going with like the A Christmas Carol style theme that this movie kind of has. Sure. That like, oh, if only she had dated this nerdy guy,

she would be a good person. But if she chooses her own path and like goes with her career, she's a bad person. And like being into your, like there's just like this whole. Not only that, but like stopping being friends with a dude

and like joining this like group of women who are bad. Right, because women are bad influences. Right. Mean. Judy Greer's always wearing green. Like puke. Right. Or it's like evil.

Yeah. Yeah, there's a very weird anti-women-having-careers undercurrent to this whole movie because it's like, yeah, she chooses her, this group of basically mean girls, and she chooses the mean girls over her Talking Heads fan childhood friend. And as a result, because she's into her career,

she is a bad daughter, she's a bad friend, she's a bad partner. I feel like it just insinuates a lot of cruel things about women who want careers sure and then the way the movie ends when she flashes forward and we see like you know we're late and then she's late to her wedding with mark ruffalo and we don't know in the future we know know she lives in a big house with Mark Ruffalo. A pink house. Pink house. But we don't know what she does. Does she still work at Poise? How do they afford the house?

Probably not. If she's living in the Jersey suburbs, probably not. So there's a lot of weird subtweeting of women who want to have a job. Right. I mean, that and it villainizes the female friendships or female relationships in this movie are largely antagonistic, where obviously the main one is between Jenna and Lucy, a.k.a. Tom Tom, a.k.a. Judy Greer,

where all they do is stab each other in the back. And then the other one is between, well, there's her and Becky, which again is strange. Becky is a narrative tool whose mother is not present. And then there's Jenna and her assistant, whose name is, I think, Arlene? The scared woman. Yes, she is so frightened.

We have some Eileen fans in here. Yeah, it's just Jenna. We don't see this on screen, but in all the backstory, we know that Jenna is awful to other women, is what we can glean. Right. And other people in general,

where she is bad to her parents. There is that scene where she's talking to Judy Greer, and Judy Greer implies that she has cheated on her boyfriend before. It seems like she becomes, because she makes this one choice when she's 13 years old, she becomes the worst person in the entire world. Which was like, oh, this whole time in the movie i the whole time i was like i also have regrets right maybe if i had done this differently in seventh grade

yeah i would be married to yeah this movie was like actually they're like there are no consequences you just have to stare at a house for long enough and then everything will be fine. Right. It's just weird. And the fact that I think that Jenna's relationship with Lucy, because that's the way that the story goes, even with bully characters, there's always more there than just like,

she's mean and she's mean to the core and she'll be mean for 500 years she had a nose job but that's like all we know about her right right and they're so cruel to each other and it's just like that's the main two women that we see interact in the movie and we don't ever learn anything about lucy when she's younger or older. We just know she's mean and she's this stock character and that the only way that Jenna can rebel against her is by being with Mark Ruffalo. There's no alternative. Right.

Yeah. Like, the only way she can not be bullied is to marry Mark Ruffalo. I wanted to think while watching it, I was trying to think, maybe this movie is anti-capitalist because it's showing the evils of the magazine world. But instead it's like, you know, it would be better if you got a giant house with one man

and you sat there, you loved him. Yeah. Totally. And the way we see women in this workplace versus, the only man we really see in this workplace is Andy Serkis. And we sort of just see him being hapless and being like, what are you ladies up to? Do I smell

bad? He's the editor-in-chief but never seems to know what's happening. And so it's like the women are mean and the men are clueless at this workplace. I'm so sorry I did a british accent just now just forgive me okay never apologize yes but it's it's like you know they're they're treated on different levels

of like the women are are against each other and the one guy at the workplace is just like where are we which i feel like is kind of a cop- out in the way that those relationships are treated and also like Jenna being a 13 year old girl in a 30 year old body her proposal both proposals for the redesign of the magazine are so bad like how did they get this job she's like twiddling with like a balloon for no reason and then yeah she's like these aren't the women i want to see i want to see the girl next door she's like talking like that yeah my older sister and she's like if you want if you don't like this i don't care you're like you should care and she also like takes down the fashion editorials and presents an all-white yearbook.

Yeah. And she's like, what about this? And Andy Serkis is like, oh my God. Did not think of the yearbook aesthetic. Are there not really people of color in this movie? No, it's a very white movie. Mark Ruffalo is ethnic, maybe. Yeah.

It's very, like, background, like, it's just set dressing, which is just, like, yeah, it's the worst. Yeah, it's, like, the version of New York where pretty much only white people live and work as we see in so

many movies and television shows. Or non-white people exist only 20 feet away. Right. There is a person of color with a speaking role who works at Poise. I think his character's name is Glenn. I only know it because I looked it up on IMDb. But he is played by an actor who is Iranian.

Other than that... There's also a black woman who works there. There's a black woman who works there who Judy Greer talks about her mission to destroy Jennifer Garner, who is not named. And her back is turned, I think. Yes, we also don't get to see her face.

Oh, and then there like the DJ who's playing the Michael Jackson song a scene that we can all agree ages very well ages extremely well there are no documentaries about it everything's fine yeah no it's a super super super

white upper class movie which like rom-coms in general generally and movies in general generally tend to be and like this movie i don't know there's no there's no societal questions invoked and it's just like i don't know the main thing with this movie is it presents to kids a very like yes queen girl power, capitalist feminist version of feminism, where they're like, yeah, if you have every advantage and magic exists,

everything's going to end up fine. I mean, you mentioned Christmas story kind of thing. I do think, I guess, that it's refreshing that we see a female redemption story because we have so many male redemption stories where we see so many stories about shitty men who are like, oh, I see the error of my ways. I have to be a better person. And I'm tired.

So I guess because the way women are generally presented in media is that they have to be perfect already flawless they have to be these amazing creatures who like have nothing wrong with them because otherwise audiences can't handle a slightly unlikable woman right and we don't even see her really do the bad stuff either. We just aren't informed about it. That's all in the backstory. Yeah. And we only see her be this very naive,

nine-year-old acting person. So I guess it's cool that there's a redemption story there that we don't usually see. But the fact that the takeaway from that redemption story is like, I don't know see but the fact that the the like takeaway from that redemption story is like i don't know it's like if you're a kid and you see this movie like in my i truly like when i saw this movie i'm like oh well i should just kiss peter sacchetti on the lips right and then i'll be an amazing person like yeah the messages are like being successful equals being a raging bitch and like yeah like the path of redemption is directly tied to this very traditional thing right being nice

equals being like domesticated by a hetero relationship and that that is like cool which is but it's i mean which is fine if that's what she wants, but we just like, we don't know if she had a life at all. She goes from like we find out this complex life that she had. She's fucking a hockey player. She's doing all this stuff that I'm like, that's pretty cool. What if you were fucking a hockey player and cheating on a hockey player? That sounds awesome.

But then you just sort of flash forward, like when she does the do-over, she gets the most generic version of generic happiness. Yeah, like we just don't know anything. I would rather know the specifics that I'm cheating on a hockey player than just be like you're married. So depressing. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now.

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I wanted to briefly touch on the representation of queerness in this movie because Andy Serkis is for a while coded as queer. And then we see a scene toward the end where he's talking to Jenna. He's like, Hey, that photographer who I don't think he has actually seen. Yeah. What made him ask that? He's like, that yearbook photographer.

Those pictures are pretty good. Does he fuck? He says, is he an Arthur or a Martha? Right? Is this a common expression? Do we know this?

Or is this written by someone who's only heard of queer people? Oh my God. So I guess this means, is he straight or is he gay? Yeah. And then Jenna, because she is a baby,

says, he's Matt. Hot. And then Richard says, no, no, no, is he gay? And then she says, are you gay? And then he goes, ha ha!

Giggle, giggle, giggle, nodding, shrugging, giggle, giggle. nodding, shrugging, giggle, giggle. Aside from the weird implied casual homophobia in this joke, he should be worried about her. It's implied they've known each other for years. She would know this. Right. If someone you knew was gay for years,

you were all of a sudden like are you gay like you would have follow-up questions right okay so from his point of view he knows her as this like conniving bitch for years working for him at this magazine and then suddenly one day she's like my daddy is wayne rink like are you gay i just like call someone jenna doesn't have any good friends so i also first i don't know maybe i'm dumb but i was like i felt i had the same reaction i was like wait this character's supposed to be gay? I was like, what were the signs that he just works at a magazine? I wasn't totally clear. I mean, I wasn't totally clear on that at first,

because I hadn't seen this movie in a long time, and it was implied that they were close, but I'm like, I don't know. It's hard to plug yourself back into 2004 logic. I'm like, is a man who is comfortable around a woman get like queer coded i honestly wasn't sure at the beginning i'm like they seem to be friends and then he's like of course i'm gay right i was like were all men just visibly tense and violent in 2004 all men were hockey players or gay.

I would have, yeah, I don't know. Like, and the whole, I mean, the way sex is treated in this movie, I don't know.

For this movie, if you're due, if you're flashing forward from 13 to 30, you have to address sex in some way. Yeah. So,

I don't know. I mean, I'm curious as to, like, what you think because it's the way it's mainly addressed is through the hockey player and it like wasn't the best like it was weird and he you know but they're supposed to be in a relationship yeah she does during that scene she's like stop stop and he's like i'm stripping but i don't know i mean it's like i I'm stripping. But I don't know. I mean, it's like, I don't really know how I would suggest a rewrite for that scene other

than them having a frank, unfunny discussion. I feel like I appreciated how uncomfortable she was because it was like one of the only moments where they were like, she is 13. Except for that other scene where she like flirts with that 13-year-old boy. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. That's one of the moments where I'm like, she's not stupid. Something is wrong.

And then Lucy, voice of reason, is like, do you want to get arrested? Yeah, do you want to go to jail? I actually kind of thought that was okay, how that was handled. That was good, yeah. But that was one of the moments where i was like even if jennifer like if her character is supposed to be 13 a 13 year old would know not to do that like that's something that a five-year-old would be like you're cute but like a 13 year old would be like i have C-cups. I can't do this.

Right. You know? I don't know. Yeah. That scene was weird. Also, why was that kid at a bar? Yeah, where were his parents? Were Becky's parents? Were Becky's parents?

Were his parents? That kid was alone with two full bottles of ketchup. Is that happening in New York? I think it was like children with ketchup at a bar. I think it was like a cheesecake factory.

But did Big Time Magazine ever go to the cheesecake factory? The logic of that scene, the second there was a lone child, I was like, what restaurant is this? I think i just have a couple

quick almost afterthoughts but there are some like pretty rom-commy tropes that are in this movie we've touched on a few already but it's you know the woman who works at a magazine in new york city in New York City. It's the beautiful woman pratfalling. It's the very white cast. There is a short makeup putting on montage because women be putting on makeup. But she's also putting on makeup when she's 13.

Right. True, but also because And she puts on the same makeup when she's 30. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. She has not. I allowed that. And then shortly after that,

there's a quick shot of her coming back from having been shopping because women be shopping. But if you woke up and you had a six-figure salary? I would shop. I'm sorry to keep defending you. She forgets her credit card, too. They're like, missed your credit card. She's like, oh, so rich.

I wanted to talk about Wendy really quick. Oh, yes. Yes're like, miss your credit card. She's like, oh, so rich. I wanted to talk about Wendy really quick. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, I,

Wendy, Wendy is Matt's fiance. Oh my God, right, the weather woman. Right, the weather person.

Right, right. So, we're like, Wendy. Oh. Don't clap for that. No, keep clapping.

Wendy is Mark Ruffalo's fiance in the future. Right. And Mark Ruffalo's character is shady on the whole in that he wants to fuck a woman who acts like a baby. Also, really, like, buries the lead of the fact that he's going to get married in two weeks has to run into jenna out in public after she hit on the kid with the ketchup and then it's like by the way i'm engaged her name's wendy she's a weather woman and wendy bravely says weather person. And we're like, okay, we

like Wendy. I feel so bad for Wendy. Okay, like Matt is a fucking deadbeat guy. Because apparently they're getting married in two weeks. And she's like, I work in Chicago. Matt might move in with me. And Matt's like, I don't know.

Whoa. Wow. Wow. That was really good. But then Matt is like they're going to get married in two weeks and Matt's like I don't know if we're going to move in together. Yeah. You're kidding me. There's no sparks.

But she's like I just don't really want to be like a commuter couple and he's like what did you say? He's the worst. And then at really want to be like a commuter couple. And he's like, what did you say? He's the worst. And then at the end, we're like, we're supposed to be like, oh, no, we just want him to be happy with Wendy. I did appreciate that this movie sort of like avoided the trope of stop the wedding successfully. Like Jenna wants to stop the wedding, but then has to realize that it's too late in this timeline. She's a bitch.

Right. She wanted a job too much. It would be so beautiful if it just ended with her looking at the house, but that wouldn't happen. That would only happen now maybe. But it would only result in like losing two minutes of run time. Yeah. You could just be like like and this is what

happens if you want a career yeah that's how that's kind of what the ending is anyways kind of yeah well but i just felt bad for wendy because in the future timeline i hope wendy is like oprah and like too doesn't like never met Matt and is far better off. Yeah. The other thing I like about that is that that character is usually presented as being this like evil,

witchy woman who like, it's clear that the audience is meant to hate her and meant to be like, yeah, screw her. And we definitely want our hero, Jenna and Matt to be like yeah screw her and we definitely want our hero Jenna and Matt to end up together but she seems perfectly

nice and respectable so it would have been an easy choice and a common choice that we do see a lot I'm thinking of like how the first half of Legally Blonde is where like the new where like the new girlfriend is so horrible

Cal Hockley but like a woman but still like wendy we see her at the end of her timeline about to enter a loveless marriage so sad it sucks he's like her family's here so i guess we have to get married he's like we care about each other. It's not perfect, but whatever. Get out of my room. You're just like, oh, no. I think that that scene, I really want to know why, like, Ariana Grande was, like, obsessed with that house-looking scene where she's looking at the dollhouse.

I mean, like, it's in the Thank You, Next video. Yeah, I'm like, she hasn't seen it in a while. Yeah. That's not the best's in the thank you next video. Yeah, I'm like, she hasn't seen it in a while. Yeah. That's not the best moment. Right. I feel bad for Wendy in her timeline. Good for Wendy in the timeline where she's not present because hopefully that means she's doing great.

Let's see. I have a couple other things. We touched on this a little bit already, but there was an article published at the time of this recording just a few days ago, but it's entitled, 13 Going on 30 Turns 15. Celebrate by admitting it's a better film than Big.

Click, click. Yeah, here we go. It was published in Decider by Anna Menta. Quote that I want to read is, the real reason 13 Going on 30 never had a shot at the prestige status enjoyed by big is because it was made to appeal to women.

Quote, chick flicks, as some like to call romance films that center on a woman, are never, quote, refreshing or poignant. Chick flicks, no matter how original they are, are, quote, well-worn, formulaic, and uninspired. These are, you know, what the male critics say. And terms never applied to action movies, which are all the same movie. Yeah. And then Big gets to be on the American Film Institute's list of funniest films of all time, while 13 going on 30 gets dubbed as a guilty pleasure

so right I mean there's so much I guess like my favorite there's like some great Lindsay Ellis video essays for friends yeah of like how movies targeted at women are always

upon their release kind of like couched and like, well, this is a stupid movie, but for a stupid movie, I didn't hate it. It's so couched in the way it's reviewed. Yeah. I want to say that it is radical for the sleepover scene because it's just like, even though it's centered around her talking about Mark Ruffalo kissing her,

there's still this beautiful, all these girls just dancing to Love is a Battlefield and wearing a bra over their dresses. That's cool. That wasn't in Big. Right. Yeah, there's so much about this movie that, I mean, people shouldn't stop watching it. It's a great movie. It's cute. And there's a lot, I don't know, there's a lot to love about it.

There's one scene that we didn't talk about. There's one of the other female relationships that we'd like graze on in this movie that's like a bunch of half-formed female relationships is Jenna and her mom. Where when Jenna goes back home, she and her mom have this discussion where it's very expositional, this scene, because Jenna's like, if you could go back, do you have anything that you...

She's like, well, I would take away a few wrinkles, that's for sure. Right. You're like, okay, mom. Anything else? like okay mom anything else and her mom i mean it's just weird like that scene i i like because any scene between a mom and a daughter that is like pleasant and sweet you're like okay sure but like yeah we don't know anything about jenna's mom maybe there's things she should regret. Yeah.

Right. Maybe when she says. I believe in regret. Right. I stand regret. Yeah. She was like, do you regret anything? And Jenna's mom was like, no, nothing.

And I'm like, what if her mom did something horrible and Jenna knows it? Right. We don't know what happened. Really? What if Jenna's mom meant that as a challenge where she's like three years ago i killed five people yeah and got off on a technicality yeah i regret nothing your move maybe she regrets trying to fuck edward scissorhands because same actor! Really? Yeah.

Oh, wow. She's like the horny housewife who's like, Edward. Oh, my God. I didn't realize that. Oh, my God. I love her. I would regret that, too.

An icon. Wow. That scene is weird because it's like her mom doesn't regret anything, but Jenna, by going back in time, clearly does.

So, like right what what was the lesson right I was like well I guess Jenna's mom who we know nothing about regrets nothing nothing sure uh one other quick thing I wanted to mention is just a reminder or you know this has never been said before but but representation is important. I came up with that. Take of the ear, Caitlin Durante. This is not... I know. I'm so smart. I do have a master's degree in screenwriting

from Boston University. Thank you. What? Wait, what? Oh. Cats? Okay. The musical? what wait what oh cats okay the musical okay yes are you in it i okay not the the requests are coming out so um you said cats the musical just really quick uh there is a scene where jennifer garner's character drives through times square and there is a scene where Jennifer Garner's character drives through Times Square and there is a Mamma Mia poster.

We talked about that movie. Anyway, cats have eight nipples. That's what people wanted to hear. It's not relevant to the movie. But that's Cat Facts with Caitlin. Eight nipples. On to my point. Which is that

a pretty big part of at least the beginning of the movie is Jenna as a teen seeing women in magazines, specifically very conventionally attractive by western beauty standards models in poise

In the 80s. And 80s and saying i want to look like that like that is the ideal that is presented to me by society and i need to make sure that that's how i look because that is how people will value me uh which just again goes to show well that is presented in the movie as if it is the wrong frame of mind yes and it like but the movie goes on to really not challenge it at all because it's like and she ended up working there but she shouldn't have she should have just gotten married right like yeah yeah and like well she also wants to like be a part of something. She wants to be a part of the six chicks. Yeah. And that is also the wrong move.

It's just, I feel like Jenna's character is so profoundly punished for having wants and desires that for a 13-year-old girl are very logical. Which is to want to fit in and to want to look like what is presented to them like incessantly. And she is somehow punished for that.

Right. Even though like she's really just like, there's probably no one here that didn't feel like that at some point. Like no kid when they're 13 years old or very few kids are like so aggressively woke that they're like, fuck the norm.

I was like, I would have done anything. Yeah. I really love that line where she's like, I don't want to be original. I want to be cool. Like same. Yeah.

Yeah. Like sometimes still adult. Yeah. And then Matt's over there being like um actually they're robots yeah right and he's right but also like he doesn't get i don't know just like the fact that his point they're like if she only just like popped in a talking heads cassette and kiss that boy she would get it yeah but i mean it does like present the idea that a teen girl who wants the things that typical teen girls do will become an evil heinous bitch yeah exactly like best case

scenario right like i don't i don't know i mean i just like i i think that being a 13 year old girl is the most fragile state of being. It's horrible. And the fact that she is punished intensely for the next 17 years of her life. This movie kind of taints the idea that a boy and a girl in their formative years can't just have a platonic relationship. It's a boy pining after a girl. And it has to result in marriage or it was an invalid friendship. Also, if I had

seen this movie as a tween and I had heard the description of what Seven Minutes in Heaven was as it is described in this movie, which is that a boy goes into a closet with you, you're blindfolded. And brutalizes you.

And he can do whatever he wants to you for seven minutes. I would be like, I'm going to live in a cave and never talk to anybody. That is so scary. The other line of dialogue that is frequently cited and very freaky in this movie is that line that Lucy has where Jenna is in the bar and she's like, I think that 30 is going to be awesome. And she's like, yeah, of course, you're thin, you're hot. You could get any guy in the world. And just like defining that as like the way to be a successful 30 year old and she she doesn't challenge that and really the movie doesn't challenge that in any way that kind of

2004 yeah everyone's so skinny except for the scared woman yeah except for yeah it's a very thin the oldest most fearful woman. Like there is the most diversity we get. The woman who is the most full of fear. Right. Does anyone have any other final thoughts? No. Okay. Great. I think we have a few

minutes for some audience questions and or comments. Hopefully we get to everybody. There's a lot of bustling. We'll see. Oh my God, the line is forming. There's a line forming? Everyone, dear God. Okay, cool. No worries. This is wonderful. Hi, what's your name?

Hi, I'm Daria. Hi. I made this for you. That's it. Oh, sweet. This is wonderful. Hi, what's your name? Hi, I'm Daria. Hi. I made this for you. That's it. Sweet. What is it? Yay. That's so sweet.

This is, thank you so much. This is an embroidered tweet of mine. So glad because it gives me an opportunity to bring up Titanic. It was a tweet that I tweeted apparently on December 1st, 2018. I love that you included that. My favorite part of Titanic is when Bill Paxton only wants to hear about what happened to the diamond and Old Rose tells a seven-hour story about a stranger she fucked. Thank you so much. This is so awesome.

Hello. It's so hard to follow up. Hi, I'm Bridget. I have a very important question. How do you think Alfred Molina would factor into this film? Thank you for asking. Yes. I think we could easily recast Mark Ruffalo in this movie.

And Jennifer Garner answers the door and she's like, wow, you look not what I expected. Better maybe? 13 going on 56? We don't know. I think that as with most movies, oh, okay, even better. Jenna is blindfolded at 13. She wakes up. She's Alfred Molina. that as with most movies oh okay even better Jenna

is blindfolded at 13 she wakes up she's Alfred Molina and it's 2004 and she's filming Spider-Man 2 and she has to figure out how can I actualize myself as a woman and also play

Doc Ock in 2004 and I have to play Tevye on Broadway. Yes, yes. It's hard. That's the real question. I think that, yeah. That's the most important thing to know. Yeah, fuck women.

Let's recast Jennifer Garner. Thank you. Thank you, of course. Thank you so much. Hello. Hi. Hi, I'm Hannah. Hi.

I was wondering if you guys had any thoughts on the way Judy Greer is typecasted as characters we're not supposed to like. I feel like in every single movie I've ever seen her in, she's not, you're not supposed to like her character. Right. Yeah. Your thoughts? I highly recommend, if people here

are like Judy Greer fans, which I am, she has a great, I love Judy Greer. She's great, like and she almost never gets her due People here are like Judy Greer fans, which I am. She has a great memory. She's great. Like, and she almost never gets her due. But like she wrote a great memoir about how this has been truly the course of the past several decades of her life of like being the best friend type. Yeah. And I mean, it's just it's such a strange thing to be caught into. And she writes a lot about how, like, she's like, I think I look like a fairly normal person.

And how normal looking people are demonized in media. And how, like, normal looking people, even when they're very talented, are never used to their full ability and she has like a lot of interesting thoughts on like where like if you get into deep judy greer lore like she's so talented and she's done so many cool roles she's still killing it yeah but like the major roles she gets are so blah and so lame and she lame and she sort of draws the conclusion. She's like, I look like a regular person. And that is why people think I'm mean and

terrible. Thank you. Hi. I'm Aisha. Hi. So my question slash comment was, I'm wondering so when I saw this again recently, it made me think of a friend zone wish fulfillment narrative from the side of the dude. So it's like, she shows no interest in him when she's younger except for friendship.

And then you switch to his wish fulfillment, which is she should be punished for any of her other wants and desires, which are all fulfilled in the future, except him. So it's this punishment because she gets everything that she wants then and it's all wrong. And she's punished for that because the one thing that him as a young person wanted. Yeah. So it's like it definitely goes with the warlock theory. Yeah, it does. Like it was all orchestrated. Right. He's a warlock theory. Yeah. It does go, like, it was all orchestrated. Right. He's a warlock.

He's a warlock. Like, here's the friend zone illustrated in a movie. So true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very much.

I just wondered if you guys, what your thoughts were on that. Agree. Yeah, totally agree. I hadn't really considered this movie from Mark Ruffalo's perspective.

From his perspective, it's kind of dope. Like, he doesn't change from when he's a young kid. Yeah, the whole movie he's just surprised. Because he's awesome the whole time. Right, yeah. And either timeline gets to marry a very successful woman

who will presumably take care of his yearbook photographer ass. Pay him forever. He's like aggressively mediocre the whole time. Yeah. True. I mean, I would still F the S out of Mark Ruffalo. In his CBGB shirt.

I'm like, we get it. You like the talking heads. Relax. Yeah, I think this movie is way more fun if you view it from a friend zone narrative that seems like that's the victorious route to go, that's awesome thank you so much

hi hi I'm Zari huge fan so I wanted to propose Maddie or Mark Ruffalo as feminist icon because there is a very short scene

where I had to actually rewind. You know what I'm talking about? Yes. I had to rewind a little bit to re-listen to it because basically they're talking about spin the bottle. Spin the rapist. Yes. Spin the rapist. Yeah. Wait. He calls spin the bottle spin the rapist. Yes. He calls spin the bottle spin the rapist and I think that is awesome.

Because it's true. Whoa, yeah. Whoa. Is that when he's a 13-year-old? No, when he's an adult with Mark Ruffalo. I miss Mark Ruffalo. Mark Ruffalo says that? Yes. Mark Ruffalo is like, me too.

He was like... Okay, point taken. Yeah. I agree. Wow, still want to kiss him. Wow, I miss him. Yeah. I agree. Wow, still want to kiss him. Wow, I miss him. Yeah. Thank you.

Hello. Hi, my name's Nicole. Hi. And as a woman in STEM. Wow. Okay. Wow. I have to say, when TomTom found the snail mail saying that Jenna was going to take the job at Sparkle,

I was like, damn, I would do that too to advance my career I think we were all painted to hate her but I kind of identified and said you know what I might have done that too if I found out my friend was yeah it's reasonable yeah I mean I think yeah like nihilist like, you're just like, you know what? If I'm switching, if I'm going to participate in capitalism, does it matter which structure I participate in? No. Poised to sparkle. Doesn't matter.

Yeah. No, I mean, I guess if Judy Greer is coming from the POV of just like, well, she was going to do it. So I'm Tom Tom. I wish I had like, I'm Tom Tom. I can do anything I want. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Hello. Hi, I'm Amy. So I asked this question as a pure Mark Ruffalo fan, but I was wondering what you thought if you were to replace Mark Ruffalo with Steve Buscemi and apply the Buscemi test. So if she were to open the door and Steve Buscemi was there as her 30-year-later best friend. Ask the inventor of the Buscemi test, which is the test that if you replace a conventionally hot man with Steve Buscemi, how does the narrative change?

I don't know how much about this movie changed. I think that Jennifer Garner is the weird one. I mean, I don't know. I mean, like, Jennifer Garner is the weird one in a lot of ways where she's rejected a lot of times by him and just keeps being like, hi, I'm 13. But if you see Steve Buscemi be like, okay, you're 13. His big eyes.

Yeah, she'd be like, you have arm hair and a scary face. And then they kiss. Yeah. I feel like Mark Ruffalo always looks like confused and Steve Buscemi

always looks like, do they know? Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's like there's always distant sirens but you're like,

I wonder if they're actually going to get closer. Right. Who are they for? I don't know. Yeah, I think that the Steve, the Buscemi test definitely applies to this story.

As with any born sexy yesterday trope, the Steve Buscemi test is in full effect. Yeah, for sure. Can I also just comment on how many times this happens in the movie where Mark Ruffalo is like walking away and then Jenna's like, Matt.

So many times. Wait. And then he. And then Jenna's like, Matt. So many times. Wait. And then he turns around and he's like, what? And then she's like, arrivederci. Or something. Like, it happens at least five times. That's like the whole movie. I want that.

Okay. Anyway. But the Buscemi test is definitely in full effect. For sure. Yes. For sure. Thank you. Yeah, for sure. Thank you. Yeah, of course.

Hi. So my question actually serendipitously connects to that one, which was just that when I was watching the movie, I think you guys might agree that there was not a lot of chemistry between Mark Ruffalo and Jen Gardner. Loved them both independently, but that romantic story was kind of like, eh. So my question is, how much different or better

would the movie be if the long lost childhood friend was actually a female character everyone just got horny all at once that was a very unique moment. I was like, oh. Well, I think the crowd has indicated it would be much better. Yeah, it would be much better. I mean, if there was,

I mean, but even truly, like, if you do, like, because I think that the Judy Greer character warrants more explanation. No bully exists in a void. Maybe we write Maddie out and we figure that out.

Like, what's going on there? Tom, Tom, why did you steal my proposal and leave me to get molested by a kid in a closet? Because I loved you. That's why. Progressive.

I mean yeah and there's so many young like there's so many young women in the beginning of the story who basically mean nothing to the plot besides Tom Tom that yeah you could sub out Maddie very easily and

people would be horny here I'm very down for that and I just like truly do think that the Judy Greer character was not examined well enough as an adult or a kid, and that whether it be as a friendship or something more, that, like, that relationship wasn't fully explored in the movie. Yes, for sure. Yeah.

Thank you. Love it. Thanks, guys. Yeah, of course. Hi. Hi. Last point, I guess more of an observation than a question, in terms of people of color representation.

As a person of color who grew up in the New Jersey suburbs, the biggest plot hole to me was how many black people were at the Wendy and Mark Ruffalo's character wedding. It was literally 50-50, if you want to go back and watch. Oh, wow.

Because I literally turned to my husband and said, how did they get so many black friends? Wow. So just something for everybody to watch out for. Wow. Amazing. Thank you. Wendy the woke weather. Wow. Amazing. Thank you.

Wendy, the woke weather woman. I know. Hi. Hi. Thank you so much for everything. I have two observations. Sure. First is,

TomTom is usually used in French for GPS machines in cars. Oh. Oh, yeah. That was in GPS here in cars. Oh, yeah. That was a GPS here, too. And the second was, what if Mark Ruffalo, who is very stupid, is also 13

in a 30-year-old's body? And just played it way cooler. Oh my god. Whoa. Hey. Way more fun. I like that.

It almost reminds me of, what's the character's name in The Good Place who's like, I'm a monk, and it's just that he's a fucking idiot? Jason Mendoza. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, his whole character is that he's a fucking idiot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, his whole character is already kind of like, yeah, yeah, totally, yeah.

Is that why he didn't know he was married? Yeah, what if his own warlock dust acted back on him? That would explain so much of his suspicious behavior. And why he's still such a horrible photographer.

You know when he gets a check and he's like, this would mean a lot for me, but what if it's like $4? He's like, we don't need the number. We don't need 40 bucks. And then Jennifer Garner's like,

that's only half of it. It's actually $8. He's like, holy shit. Oh, man. Does this movie pass the Bechdel test? Yeah, a lot. It does. It super does.

Yes. Women talk about a lot of things. They talk about magazines. They talk about age swaps. They talk about hangovers. They talk about being 30. There's a lot of different combinations too. It's like Jenna and Lucy,

Jenna and her assistant, Jenna and her mom, Jenna and Becky. The mom's name is Bev. Bev according to IMDB. But yeah, we don't know that. Feminist icon IMDB. IMDB.

Yeah, so that's a hard yes on passing the bechdel test yeah yeah and i guess finally how would everyone rate this on our nipple scale our nipple scale i don't want to go first you don't no okay melissa would you like to go first oh no um, I'm going to be consistent with what I've been saying. Okay. I'll give it four nipples, and two of them I will give to Mark Ruffalo to do as he pleases. And they're my nipples, and I can feel it. And...

And then the third nipple, I guess, I'll give to the scared woman, representation matters, as a woman who is afraid always. Loved her. And then I'll give the last nipple to Judy Greer storming down the magazine hall throwing things. Yeah. I'll go with three, I think.

I think that there's a lot to love about this movie. I'm still attached to it. I think that it sort of, I'm like between a two and a half and a three, because there is a lot of underlying messages with this movie that I feel like either path that the movie presents is not ideal and really only applies freedom of choice to which guy you kiss where you know you can either choose

the path of choosing a group of female friends and a career or choosing a guy and one is clearly good and one is clearly horrible and so I think that there's like a lot of demonization of women working at all in this movie that I thought even for 2004 it was kind of a strange thing to be doubling down on I wish that there was a female like a relationship between two women of any sort in this movie that we could really, really root for or that felt super nuanced and grounded. But whether it's like Lucy and Jenna, Jenna and her mom, Jenna and Becky, they're all kind of one note and play out. Either kind of like nothingness, like Jenna and her mom where we don't know anything about their relationship, so their conversations don't matter. Or it's two women who are actively against each other yeah and it has to do with career ambition and it's just like women can't work together and just kind of all these like old tropes that seep into it but I do like that it's her story. She has an active role in redeeming herself.

And I just love it. I'm very attached to it. I like it. Yeah. And I like the dancing. And I'll give it two and a half. I'm going to give one to, was it Eileen or Arlene? Arlene. Arlene, the assistant.

She has two fearful nipples now. Yeah. And I'll give the other one and a half to Andy Serkis. Yeah. Because he never gets real human nipples. He always gets CGI. That's true. I'll also go with a two and a half, just to piggyback on everything you said, Jamie.

But I also think it's important to, like, this is an unapologetically, I would say, girly movie, and that's okay. That's good. It's good that those exist in the world. Yeah, it's okay to still love it. Yeah, I'm going to go with a two and a half. I will give two nipples to Judy Greer.

And I will give my half nipple to Wendy. Yes, Wendy! Justice for Wendy. Yeah, Wendy. She's a successful meteorologist. Without. A woman in STEM.

She's in it. Melissa, thank you so much for being here. A woman in STEM. Melissa, thank you so much for being here. You're the best. Give it up. Where can we find you online? Where can we listen to Say More? Tell us everything. You can listen to Say More podcast hosted with Olivia Getwood

on all streaming devices. And you can follow me everywhere at Hello Melissa, which is Hello Melissa without the H. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you again so much. Thanks to the Bell House for hosting us here.

Thank you for coming. Thanks to you for being here on Game of Thrones night. Oh, it's starting right now. For missing. Did you know that the dragons in Game of Thrones can't talk? I learned that today. Yeah.

They are not Smaug who can talk. Thank you so much for coming. Thanks for coming. Yay. That was our episode. Woo. We did it. That was such a fun show.

And thank you to everyone who came to that show at the Bell House. That was such a blast. It was recorded on like the third to last episode of game of thrones and we were afraid no one was going to come but a bunch of people came packed it was so much fun yeah so thank you for coming thanks to everyone who like bought merch and posters that helps us out a lot that was that was such a fun night so fun thanks again to our guest, Melissa Lizada Oliva. She was so awesome. Yes. And please check out all of her stuff.

I know she put in her plugs as well, but at LO Melissa and read all of her wonderful poetry. Indeed. Yes. And then shout out and thanks to the bell house for having us there. Yeah. All the staff who helped out with the show, everything.

That was awesome. Yeah. It was such a blast. And thank you to Jennifer Garner. I mean, a huge thanks to Jennifer Garner. I mean, we'd be remiss too. We should always thank the lead actors at the end of every episode. And of course, this wouldn't be possible

without Meryl Streep. I think you mean Meryl Streep. It's true. And she would have, but she's so gracious. She would have just been like a Streep, sure. Yeah, right, yeah. So, you know, thanks to the whole, thanks to Andy Serkis,

thanks to Gollum, who made probably that role possible for him because he's trying to subvert the narrative. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Thanks to everyone, really. Yes, indeed. And hey, we can plug some stuff. Yeah.

Like our, you know twitter instagram facebook blah social media is a hellscape but it's all at bechtel cast yep you know it is we mentioned at the beginning of our uh episode we have our patreon aka matreon at patreon.com slash bechtel cast which you can listen to our live dc episode on 13 going on 30 for free or if you subscribe for five dollars a month you can get two bonus episodes a month that is such a good special and why everyone isn't doing it is baffling to me boggles the mind yes truly you're getting this incredible free content imagine what that sweet sweet premium It's the same, but you never heard it. We step up our game.

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That's what our matrion is. Oh, wow. That's the vibe over there. Anyway, we've got some merch oh yes we've got feminism is the law now yes our newest aggressive shirt yes rise of the matriarchy woman in stem plus all the classics yes and then to get that merch you should go to tpublic.com slash thebectocast. And all the goodies are there. So we'll see you on the World Wide Web. Thank you for listening.

See you there. Bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country

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what happens when a professional football player's career ends and the applause fades and the screaming fans move on I am going to share my journey of how I went from Christianity to now a Hebrew Israelite. For some former NFL players, a new faith provides answers. You mix homesteading with guns in church. Voila! You got straightway. They try to save everybody. Listen to Spiraled on the iHeartRadio app app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years.

I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or his history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream sequence is a new horror thriller from blumhouse television iheart radio

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