The Bechdel Cast - 9 to 5 with Sophie Lichterman

Episode Date: July 1, 2021

On this unlocked Patreon aka Matreon bonus episode, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Sophie Lichterman aka producer of the Bechdel Cast chat about 9 to 5! P.S. Please listen to Jamie's new podcast about Cathy comics, Aack Cast! (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @why_sophie_why on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the president of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson.

26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nicknamed Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer, this season on the new podcast, Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad-free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to iHeart True Crime Plus,

only on Apple Podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose. This week, I had the opportunity to speak with Dr. Andrew Huberman. Dr. Huberman is a neuroscientist and professor at Stanford University School of Medicine, known for his research on brain function, behavior, and neuroplasticity, the brain's ability to adapt and rewire itself. The expectation on us is not perfection, it's being able to toggle between these different states.

Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Trust me, you won't want to miss this one. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello everybody and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante.

And this is our little podcast about the representation of women intersectionally in movies. Today, we are unlocking an episode from our matreon, aka Patreon, aka matreon. It's an episode about the movie 9 to 5 with a guest slash our producer, Sophie Lichterman. And the reason we are unlocking this episode is because I am releasing a podcast for the next two months every Monday called ACKCAST, which is all about the Kathy comics by Kathy Geisweit. I am very excited. It was also produced by Sophie Lichterman. And it's kind of just a look back at those comics I think that they're very generally misunderstood and mischaracterized as being anti-feminist or somehow regressive when um I've read every single one and there's a lot of really good stuff in

there it's it was it ran for almost 35 years um and that's how old i am it's it's literally well it's not as old it's it's because it ended 10 years ago but you know it ran for a long time and yeah and and it grew and changed a lot with the times much like uh you caitlin um thank you and i think it is like i i truly have been fully red pelt by kathy comics i think that they're a really interesting gateway to discussion. So the show starts into talking about how the comic comments on the kind of jagged progression of feminism in america during the times that it was coming out which we talk about all the time on this show but it's a very like day-by-day chronicle so it's really interesting um yeah there is an episode that is about how it comments on diet culture and the pressures to conform to conventional beauty standards and how that is a ridiculous expectation, thus act. There's a lot of commentary on consumerism.

There's a lot of stuff about how American men kind of interpreted the gains that women made during these years. And there's just a lot of interesting stuff. It is an imperfect comic for sure. And I try to kind of fill in the blanks of what it's not referencing and not discussing. And there's a lot of interviews with artists. I interviewed 15 boomer moms about their experiences and lives. And there's a whole episode about boomers as well. So I hope you listen to it. It's called ACK Cast because Kathy says ACK a lot. It is spelled A-A-C-K Cast. Or you can just search my name, Jamie Loftus, and it will also pop up.

The first episode came out June 28th and the rest of the episodes are going to be coming out on Mondays. And so that is why we are releasing 9 to 5 in 80s working girl deeply flawed classic. That's my little spiel. I love it, and I'm very excited to listen. At the time that we're recording this, it has not come out yet. It has not come out yet.

Just so you know, listeners. A little peek behind the curtain. Yay, awesome. So with that in mind, because this is a Matreon episode, we didn't do the, you know, our general show intro. So real quick, this is our podcast in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. We use the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. That, of course, is a media metric created by Alison Bechdel. Who I talk about quite a bit in the Kathy podcast.

Oh my goodness. Because she kind of provided the queer perspective that was never represented in the funny pages of the newspaper in the 80s they're sorry it all goes back to kathy baby wow oh my goodness um so it's of course a media metric in which our this is our rendition on the Bechdel test, two people of any marginalized gender must have names. They must speak to each other about something other than a man. And ideally, for our purposes, it's a meaningful, narratively significant conversation. We keep raising the bar basically and also according to recent itunes reviews we've been fielding uh we've we think we got a one-star review because someone didn't like the bechdel

test and had never listened to our show and also didn't seem to know what the bechdel test was what a nightmare um yeah so yeah we're unlocking this episode from our matrion. This episode was recorded in when was it? It was sometime in 2019. Okay. And so we just wanted to acknowledge that in this episode, this was prior to us getting more educated on ableist language as it pertains to mental illness. And so we just wanted to do a quick trigger warning that those words such as crazy, stupid, etc. do appear in this episode. We've talked about this many times on the show before, and we'll also include links in this episode as well, because we always

want to make sure that we're acknowledging that that further stigmatizes mental illness in many, many ways. And it's something that we have completely phased out of the show and out of our own vocabulary. And we're always encouraging our listeners to learn more and to make an active effort to do so yourself. Know better, do better. Links in the description, baby. I mean, speaking of learning and growing am i right i mean i mean and and um this episode is like a little more informal in tone because it appeared on our matreon if this is a if this more kind of kickback feel to an episode is fun for you check it out it's at patreon.com slash bechtel cast we post two bonus episodes around a theme each and every month i think what was the companion movie to uh

it was uh working girl yes okay yeah so we did like working girl november or something like something like that so that's where we uh choose uh ridiculous themes and actually follow through on them so good for us good for us amazing it's currently the third portman july i think um so with that enjoy this unlocked episode on 9 to 5. Woo! The Bechdelcast! Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun

dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun Yeah, I wanted you to stop because I sacrificed all the momentum. Very good. Hi, Matrons. Hi, Matrons. It's us. It's us. We good. Hi, matrons. Hi, matrons. It's us. It's us.

We're in the studio this time. Yeah. This is actually, it's kind of fucking with me because I feel so formal and yet it's not because it's the matron. It is. Usually we do this in a bed. Right. My bed.

Yes. And usually we're horizontal. Yes. Just lying down all covered up. Just had lunch usually. It's a really, really charmed life we're living right now. But today we really took it upon ourselves to leave Caitlin's house. And here we are. Well, here we are in the studio. We're going to keep it loose. We're going to keep it loose. Here's the thing. The reason that

we're in the studio is that we have a guest this time on our matriarch episode ever heard of it no um she is a friend of ours she is the mother of anderson the dog and she works nine to five at iRadio as a producer of podcasts, including the Bechdel cast. It's Sophie Lichterman. Ever heard of it? Wowie. Hi, guys. Hi, thanks for being here. I'm so nervous.

Don't be nervous. No, I think she should be nervous. Yeah, we're mean. I think we've really proven ourselves to be untenable. Well, I just know that if I fuck it up, you're going to fire me. Well, you said fuck. You have to. Sorry.

We are only non-swearing. You have to pay us $3. Here's my money. And also, fuck that. Wow. OK. And she's off. Aggressively cursing one minute in.

I don't think we've ever had a guest incriminate themselves really quite this fast yeah but um i am to please there has to be a first one thank you for doing this so we're talking about uh nine to five yeah it's a classic classic and it's one of your favorite movies i think is that right it really just describes my ethos good yeah i'm a huge uh fonda fan and who doesn't love lily and who doesn't love dolly just like a great trifecta it truly is so when did you first see this movie i first saw it with my mom i don't remember exactly it's been a while i've probably seen this movie like 10 times it's one of my faves. It's my ringtone. Good. You are currently wearing a 9 to 5 shirt.

As one does for a 9 to 5 podcast. Of course. And then you're also sporting a 9 to 5 sticker on your laptop. Yeah. It's mostly just like a Jedi mind trick for one Jack O'Brien. Oh, okay. Who has not seen 9 to 5, so does not understand any of my passive

aggressive 9 to 5 jokes he kept so we all just watched it together in the studio and he kept turning around being like

is this an action movie because he would like turn around during that scene where like Jane Fonda is like chasing Hart with a gun

or like when they're like Dolly with the lasso you're just like in a way it is in a way it is yeah way it is i mean it's a romp has dimensions okay tell me about a romp caitlin once you're here it's history with this movie on my herstory with your herstory

uh i didn't grow up with this movie i didn't see it for the first time until probably like a year or two ago. I've seen it a couple times in that span of time. And I remember the first chunk of it very well and the last chunk of it very well. And then I never remember what happens in the middle because it just gets so wild and like fast paced and like things happen that you're like, what? That I was absolutely not expecting to happen. So I like, I don't know what happens to my brain, but I never remember until I'm like, oh my gosh, I forgot how wild this movie gets. But you know, it's a fun romp

and I can't wait to talk about it. Jamie, what about you? This is my first time seeing this movie somehow. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know why because it's so thoroughly up my alley and i've been a jane fonda stan for a long time yeah i don't know i didn't realize that this was how jane fonda and lily tomlin like yeah first got tight because i'm a grace and

frankie stan seen every episode multiple times yeah, it was good to go back and see. And this movie, like, I mean, I think in most regards, like, really holds up in a way that it's, like, almost kind of depressing. Because you're just like, oh, yeah, these are all still the same things. When I say, yeah, I'm also, like, crying. Yeah. Yeah. But it's really funny and, like, really well done. And I, man.

And as Caitlin said, a romp and a half. And a half. I i mean who's not a fonda fan at at this moment i mean she's good chance right now you're listening to it jane fonda just got arrested just got arrested for standing up for the environment she's like truly like one of the like shining hollywood examples of like using your privilege for good yeah and like backing it up that jane fonda arrest photo i definitely have a t-shirt with that on but it's like one of my one of my favorite like which which arrest the one when she had the cloot bangs you know i'm talking about yeah i definitely have a sweatshirt with

that with that on it oh that's cool that story is super interesting too why she got arrested was that when she was doing Vietnam War protesting? Yeah. And then the government was like, she has drugs. And she's like, you literally just don't want me making any more, like, protest speech. These are vitamins. I mean, she was absolutely, like, dragged and abused by the media and by fucking everyone for, like, decades and decades and decades. She is the best.

Yeah. Jane Fonda appreciation, 100%. fucking everyone for like decades and decades and decades she is the best yeah jane fonda appreciation 100 if you haven't seen that hbo documentary please to grow up i gotta watch it still so i know that was a call out oh james sorry she also dated ted you know everyone contains multitudes sometimes you date an evil billionaire and it's fine i don't we don't know the first the first time i heard jane fonda's name was when my mom was fully roasting my dad for taking her aerobics class when i was really yeah wait your dad took jane fonda's aerobics class yeah they did like that's incredible jane fonda's aerobics and him and his friend would go and my mom was like yeah your dad used to do like this and i was like this is who is this woman that

is making my father do aerobics and like how do i meet her and laugh yeah that's my first fond of sighting you know do you remember carmen electro striptease workout because i definitely had those dvds oh my god no no googling what we were a richard simmons family oh sure well this wasn't a family thing that my whole family wouldn't all do it together? Gather around the television? What if I was like, my family did French or something? Me as a solo artist who had broken away from my family. Love it. Doing Carmen Electra stripped.

He's welcome. Oh, hell yeah. Did you wear this outfit? No. Oh, man. Were they fun to do? Pretty fun, yeah. I love workout videos.

She has like in everything. She's like angelic and has like this like i recognize these covers like early 2000s i like that and this one she's doing it in front of a bed i support that i used to watch the fitness channel really early in the morning before school i used to do this workout with someone this really buff guy named gilad and then he'd be like, it's called like, wake up with Gilad. And then you just like walk around a lot. And then he'd be like,

good job. And he was like Slovenian. And that HBO documentary, didn't it say that Jane Fonda didn't get a single dime from the aerobics videos either? It was all like, like as like a. Oh,

I forget. I would have to fact check that. I think that that does bring, I mean, she like gives a lot away she and she also there's all these recent pictures of her because she's gotten gotten arrested multiple times for going to climate change protests um you're talking about the the one where she's wearing the red jacket and her tongue is out because everything i want that on a t-shirt too you can tell like she's like get like getting dolled up and she goes out and protests and she gets arrested and it's all very exciting oh what a queen i mean but then also like

lily tomlin is an icon and they're all icon everyone's an icon literally all three of them lily tomlin a queer icon she's great dolly parton is great. Lily almost didn't do this movie. Her wife. Yeah, her wife talked her into it. She had just gotten done with I forget what film and was like super fatigued and like had called and been like no, sorry, like I'm out of it. And then her wife was like

no, no, no. You want to do this? And she's like really glad she did. Yeah. Well, let's talk more about it, shall we? Let's do it. The recap, if I may. Please. Oh my God, is that the format of the show?

Yeah. I just want to like make sure. Let's be totally clear. Okay, so we're in New York City. Ever heard of it? No. Not once. And Judy Burnley, that jane fonda's character

is recently divorced and she has just gotten her first ever job at a big company called consolidated we meet violet newstead that's lily tomlin she shows judy around judy meets roz around Judy meets Roz who is not the receptionist from Monsters Inc. Oh no but kind of the same time is same energy same energy has those I will kill you bangs actually I

think I don't know I would I would I prefer Roz from Monsters Inc. personally yeah yeah oh is that character's name also Roz yeah Yeah. Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah. Wow, maybe that's homage to 9 to 5. Maybe? I don't know. Yeah, who knows?

We can't go giving Pixar too much credit for really much of anything. True. But Roz is on Violet's case about something about the, you know, desk decorations. Dress code, all the stupid crap that doesn't actually matter. Right.

Yeah. And then Judy meets her new boss, Mr. Hart, who sucks. He's a piece of shit. He's a sexist pig. We find that out right away. And then she also meets Dora Lee. That'slly Parton Mr. Hart's assistant and there's a rumor going around among the women in the office that Dora Lee is sleeping with Mr. Hart lies right it's lies we find out what's really happening is that he's in love with her and he is sexually

harassing her on the regular she's turning him down consistently and like in ways she shouldn't have to. He says he's in love with her but really he's just like trying to like forcefully attack her. He's like exerting his power over her the way that you know many powerful men do. Right. He offers her money.

He's like ogling her. There's a lot of like POV shots of him you know like objectifying her. Dropping pencils and of like POV shots of him, you know, like objectifying her. Dropping pencils and just being. All the slimy things you would expect. Right. But no one knows this truth quite yet. Sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical, bigot.

That's Mr. Hart. Love that. So Judy gets started at the office. She's struggling a lot at first. There's this big Xerox machine mishap. And Mr. Hart yells at her and makes her feel like an idiot. To be fair, he probably doesn't know how to use that shit. He doesn't fucking know at all.

He doesn't know how to do anything. If you haven't had a panic attack because of office equipment, have you even had a job? Exactly. Yeah, I've been in tears over making copies before. 100%. Yeah. But she pretty quickly thinks. I was like, whoa, I just went to a dark place for a second.

But Judy pretty quickly gets the hang of things. And Dora Lee is reaching out to her and trying to be friendly. But because Judy believes this rumor about Dora Lee sleeping with Mr. Hart, Judy brushes her off and just generally no one is taking Dora Lee seriously. Meanwhile, Mr. Hart steals one of Violet's ideas about color coding the accounts to improve efficiency. And he takes credit for it. But Violet doesn't do anything about it because she's up for this promotion and doesn't want to like ruffle any feathers. But Violet doesn't do anything about it because she's up for this promotion and doesn't want to, like, ruffle any feathers.

But it turns out that she does not get the promotion. Mr. Hart gave it to a man who Violet has five years seniority over. And she trained. She trained him. Oh, this is, like, this reminds me of so, so many stories that my aunt would tell me about, like, working for the government like it's just that whole character just like exude my aunt like i mean i don't think she subscribed to the major but she retired this year like early because she was just like fucking done being

passed over by losers named marty who were like being promoted it It's just like, ugh. Ugh. Yeah, horrible. It makes me mad. And then Hart tells Violet that the company needs a man in this position and that clients would rather deal with a man when it comes to figures. And, you know, he gave the promotion to a man because he's got a family to support. Which is still like used today to justify promotions all the time. So frustrating. Yeah.

And then Violet gives this great monologue about demanding respect and... She's not his girl. Right. Yeah, love it. Which I'm like, yeah, you're not. And then it's also in this scene when Doralee comes in

and finds out that Mr. Hart has been saying that he and Doralee have been having an affair, hence where that rumor came from, which infuriates her. And then we get another great monologue from Doralee, which ends with her. She threatens to kill him. She's like, I will shoot your dick off

if you ever step out of line again. What's the line? It's like something about a rooster. She's like, I'll turn you from a rooster to a hen, something, something, something. Yeah, she threatens to castrate him. It's very, what is that? Lorena Bobbitt.

Yes. Before Lorena Bobbitt was Lorena Bobbitt. Love it. And Judy becomes enraged also when one of her colleagues gets fired for disgusting her salary. So Judy, Violet, and Doralee all take the rest of the day off and they go get drunk and then Judy's like, we gotta do something about this. So they go to Dora Lee's house and they smoke some

weed that Violet has that her son gave her. Which is honestly one of the best mother-son interactions in a movie. I'd love to do that. Yeah, I want to talk more about that. He's like, listen mom, get high. It was great. and she's like not thrilled about him smoking pop

but she's just like your grandma would be so upset if she knew you were doing this and then he's like come on like you just need to do it and then she's like leave it in my purse cause she's not a regular mom she's cool she's a cool mom which is kind of cool cause it's like there you said she's kind of

set up as like the character who's who is a little more by the book and by the rules. And then you're like, oh, but she can fucking hang. Yeah, she's fucking tight. I like you get all these little shades of, I don't know, actual people. And her son has some of the best hair I've ever seen. Oh, my God. It's flipping right and left. You're like, who is your stylist?

Refer me. So much volume. True. Yeah. So they're getting high and they start fantasizing about getting back at heart. And these extended sequences. They're so long. Yes.

And very satisfying. This is where I always forget these things happen in the movie this is the point where i'm like oh things get really wild and then i just apparently black out because i never remember these parts of the movie but uh judy is fantasizing about hunting him down with a gun dorley fantasizes about like giving him a taste of his own like very harassing medicine violet fantasizes about poisoning him and then chucking him out of a window yeah it's and these are all like minimum five minutes long a piece they're very extended sequence like i wasn't prepared at one point oh my gosh yes that there's

that lily tomlin scene where she's dressed up like snow White. You're like, sure. Yeah. And then you're like, is that her? Like, it's so, I love it. It's great. So they all go to work the next day and Violet accidentally puts rat poison in Mr. Hart's coffee, thinking it's this sweetener. It looks the same.

It looks, it's in the same box, essentially. It's the same thing. Same font. Can't be blamed. But he doesn't drink it, but his chair that has been acting up throughout the whole movie does collapse out from under him, and then he hits his head and is knocked unconscious. I love it. And then Violet realizes what she's done, and she figures the reason that he collapsed was because he drank the poison. So she starts freaking out.

They all rush to the hospital. And Violet overhears doctors talking about a guy who died from being poisoned. But she doesn't know they're talking about someone else. So Violet steals this man's body thinking that it's Mr. Hart, loads it into her trunk, and then takes off with doralee and judy but then doralee discovers that the body is not mr heart so now they have to figure out like what to do with this random body they get pulled over by the cops and then they get out of that situation they take it back to the hospital and then just leave the body there and i love that scene right i love that it. Right. I love that scene. It's so funny. He wants to give us an escort. And then she's like, see ya, bitch. Great.

So they return to work the next day and pretend like everything is normal. Except everything is normal because Mr. Hart is there and he's fine. And then the women convene in the bathroom and talk about how he must not have drank the poison. And they should just forget about the whole thing. But Roz, who is like the eyes and ears and the spy of Mr. Hart. The bangs of the office. Yes. She was hiding in one of the stalls in the bathroom and overhears everything.

So she tells Mr. Hart all the stuff that she heard. So then Mr. Hart blackmails Thorley. He says if she comes to his house that evening he'll forget the whole thing but if she doesn't come over he'll call the police and tell them that the three women tried to murder him uh so doralee is like fuck you she hog ties him just like in her fantasy and then like a boss first of all yeah and then judy points a gun at him just like in her fantasy and then they kidnap him and take him to his house and then they're like okay what do we do now they try to figure out if they can dig up any dirt on him to blackmail him

and they figure out that the ajax account that he's been working on is completely fraudulent but they can't prove it until they get the invoices from the company, which will take four to six weeks. So they have to keep him tied up in his home. Luckily, his wife is away. His wife, his wife,

his, and also his wife, who is like the sweetest woman. Oh, I thought she was lovely. Super nice. She was sweet and gullible yes also known as stupid well I see I kind of disagree on that I I thought that that was like a little subversion where I think usually

when you see a boss's his wife there's either no personality yeah or she's like jealous like when she walked in to see like Dolly Parton's character, I thought she was going to be like, hello, Dora. You know, because I feel like that's the easy choice. Right. Not saying that that's the most brilliant inspired choice. But I was, I was. Actually take it back.

She scammed her way into like a month long cruise. Yeah. Yeah. So she's actually a genius. And she was like, oh, you want me to go stay at a nice hotel for another week? Great. Okay. Yeah. Sure. So I take back the stupid comment. She's actually a genius. And she was like, oh, you want me to go stay at a nice hotel for another week? Great. Okay.

Sure. So I take back the stupid comment. She's just a scam goddess. She's basically a diva. Lacey. Lacey. Yeah. She's just Lacey. She's Lacey Mosley.

Also listen to that podcast. It's really good. Do it. So while he's tied up and away from the office for these several weeks judy dorley and violet make some positive changes around the office including radical radical stuff and equal pay policy oh they install a daycare center oh and there's also like an alcoholic rehabilitation program shout out uh drunk feminist icon margaret oh i love margaret my favorite she's also like an alcoholic rehabilitation program. Shout out drunk feminist icon Margaret. Oh, I love Margaret.

My favorite. She's always like, atta girl. Yeah. But then Hart finally manages to get loose and he covers his tracks with the Ajax account. And he takes the three women into the office ready to call the police and rat them out. But just then, the chairman of the board mr tinsworthy aka colonel sanders yeah shows up and praises mr hart for all of these positive changes that have been implemented on his floor original spices he's like i just love this orange

and yellow furniture yeah this is great you're just like yeah orange and yellow furniture. Yeah. This is great. You're just like, yeah, sure. And then Mr. Tinsworthy wants Hart to work with him in Brazil. So Hart leaves. They've gotten rid of him and they celebrate and they're like, woo. And that's the end of the movie. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered.

There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel,

available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life

in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current,

available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything

like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110, 120, she's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it.

That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller

from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. So there's a lot to talk about with this. Oh, boy. This is a fun chat. Yes. I feel like maybe for this movie, it might even be best to start with like a little bit of the history behind how this movie.

Yeah. How this movie exists, why this movie exists. It's like I think for this time, you can kind of trace a lot of successful female driven comedies back to this movie as kind of like the golden standard that women want to see themselves reflected on screen. And we will get into the whiteness of the women that we see reflected on screen. But just to kind of start, I mean, I don't think that you wouldn't have Working Girl without this movie.

You wouldn't have The First Wives Club without this movie. It's just like a lot of this definitely got a trend started because it was so successful. This movie made its budget back 10 times. It had a $10 million budget, made over $100 million at the box office. What is it? 20th highest grossing comedy film of all time. It was the second highest grossing film of that year, 1980, right behind the Star Wars movie of that year.

Ever heard of the Empire Strikes Back? Like, it's huge that this movie did this well. This movie that starred three women without, like, an actual romance storyline, too. Yeah. Which is amazing. And it's, I mean, it's a feminist text. It's white feminism.

But it's like... It's flawed feminism. It's flawed feminism. It's, you know, a narrow scope of feminism. White second wave. It's like,'s flawed feminism it's you know a narrow scope of feminism white second wave it's like yeah have friends at work but it but it's like but it's definitely like a touchstone in like making room for more thoughtful and inclusive texts right i mean what other movies around this time or even since then because there haven't been that many but are about like a group of women who are fed up with their sexist boss and then like take him down and then also implement

positive changes in their workplace they like low-key almost unionized right but i feel i i would imagine that they got like studio notes of like well don't be too explicit about the unionization stuff. But that is pretty much what they do. Right, yeah. They just aren't allowed to say it. But yeah, I mean, there's a lot of cool stuff. And I think that it wasn't, so this was like Dolly Parton's first starring vehicle.

Yeah. So if you were mentioning how she had. Yeah, my favorite fact about this movie is that Dolly Part part negotiated in her first movie contract that she would not do the movie unless she did the theme song which is so fucking cool yeah amazing she's like listen listen jane i'll do your little movie and this song fucking slaps it's my return a number one hit like it's so good still okay and and like the well i i'll take us through the lyrics in a bit because they're radical lyrics

uh also jane fonda's production company was the company that produced this movie jane fonda was very much a driving force behind getting this movie made which as we know today still that like someone using their clout to get a movie like this made is kind of like one of the only ways to do it is to have a powerful person strongly advocating for it and as it sounds like Jane Fonda did during the writing process of this movie like really let the writers go the way that they wanted to go and make a cool like and just gave them room and the fact that it fucking worked is so like it's it's exciting that this you know movie got a lot of you know for the mistakes it makes it made a lot of progress and space yeah and it makes me happy it's a pleasant watch it. It's very pleasant. It's very fun.

It's directed by a queer director, queer icon Colin Higgins, who is perhaps most famous for writing Harold and Maude. Okay. But he also wrote, he continued to work with Dolly Parton after this. He also wrote The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. Oh, really? Yeah. That's so cool. And he directed it as well.

And so he co-wrote and directed 9 to 5. He is, I mean, he's like a lot of people, I guess like Judd Apatow frequently cites him as an influence, which we can't hold against him. And then he passed away at 47 due to AIDS complications. Oh, man. So he had like a brief but like incredible life, like made these three extremely iconic movies. Yeah, super impactful. And then his co-writer, her name's Patricia Resnick. She is still a working writer today.

She started out working with Robert Altman and continued to write her own features after working on Three Women, which I've never seen. Oh, me either. But imagine, Three Women in a movie? I don't understand. So because, you know, she worked on Three Women, she's like, now I have an idea for Three Women and 9 to 5. But she wrote it as a drama, and then Jane Fonda read it and was like, oh, I like this story, but I think it should be a comedy.

And then Colin Higgins came in, did a rewrite, and then they bullied Lily Tomlin into joining. And thank goodness they did. Yeah. It's like there's a cool – it seems like the collaborative process of this movie was cool, and it was mostly driven by women and queer people. Awesome. Which is great.

Yay. Woohoo. Helpful context, as always,. Which is great. Yay. Woohoo. Helpful context, as always, Jamie. Thank you so much. Woohoo. Let's get into the story, the characters. Sure. So we've got three iconic characters here.

And they're all up against this, like, shitty, horrible, sexist boss, Mr.. Hart something I liked about the Mr. Hart character I mean there's nothing to like about it but the but the way he was written was I feel like we have talked about this on the matron specifically a lot but just when there are villains who are abusive to women that are so overdone that like male audience members couldn't see themselves in them at all which kind of just removes like well what's the point of doing it right um but i don't think that they did i feel like this is like i mean some of it's kind of like played over the top because it's a comedy but i feel like the things that he does are so recognizable and i'm sure that like if a man in like a 1980 audience they you know he

could see his own behavior in that um definitely but i mean i did like that there seemed to be some care into like making him a character that hopefully you know a man could be like oh you know oh fuck like also like a really good actor too. Yeah. Yeah, I really like that actor. He does such a good job with this. But yeah, like some of the things that Mr. Hart does, like right off the bat that clue us into him being a sexist pig.

But Jamie, as you're saying, familiar enough that like these things have all been said to us and all women he tells judy right when he first meets her that she's pretty and then he comments on other women's looks in the office saying how he doesn't find many of them to be attractive and then he goes right violet and she just like gives him the stink eye um but i feel like it's like subtly implied like it's Or not even subtly, but it's implied that part of the reason he's not promoting her is because he has no sexual interest in her. Oh, right. And, like, that. But is also, like, really okay with taking credit for all of her ideas. Oh, takes all of her ideas.

All of her ideas. Yeah. That's one of the first things we see him do, too, with the color coding. Yeah. He's like, oh, no, I'll have to, like, read more read more about this and then in the next scene he has taken it to his boss his boss and and his boss is like oh wow this is great like good job and another very realistic thing happens where violet sees this happening right in front of her she's like he just stole my idea and took credit for it but because she is up for a promotion she can't do anything about it and this is such a familiar

situation for women because like if we try to speak out or stand up for ourselves we're seen as being difficult and then you know we get fired yeah you can't really the the it's really hard to advocate for yourself yes it's i mean it was really really really well get fired yeah you can't really the the it's really hard to advocate for yourself yes it's i mean it was really really really well done where yeah you can just like sort of it's like so well acted by lily tomlin too where you just see her like choosing her battles in real time in her face yeah yeah she doesn't have to say it's yeah it's a bummer and that's like a thing that yeah like happens has happened to all of us at some point yeah for sure happens all the time and it's like i don't know like i the the

movie kind of plays it smart and and shows so many subtle things that build up that is like every woman who's ever worked in an office or it really just existed in the world can really he also like he's like oh i want to buy my wife something. Violet, go shopping. And she's like, that's not in my job description. I'm not going to shop for you. And then he like interrupts her and he's like, oh, you need to be a team player, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, I definitely got asked to go pick up a old boss's like tailored pants from Nordstrom in the middle of the day once. And it's like, where is that in my, like, no. Low key two weeks ago, a male director sent me out to get him coffee. I'm like, I'm your head writer. Like, what are you talking about? Like, it's just like, it's fucking infuriating. It's like, where in my job description did you see lackey? Like, it's just like it's fucking infuriating it's like where in my job description did you see

lackey like it's so weird yeah no it's uh and it's literally two weeks so 2019 great great so yeah we've progressed yeah just a fortnight ago this happened right here in los angeles california ever heard of it uh also so violet toward the beginning of the movie she talks about how rapidly heart like rose up the ranks like climbed the corporate ladder and she's like i remember when he was a management trainee in fact i'm the one who trained him meanwhile she's been there for 12 years she does have seem to have some like um she's the senior supervising person but it seems like she's so qualified and so capable and could be underpaid underappreciated exactly um but because she's a woman and this gets pretty explicitly stated by heart in that conversation

when he tells her that she didn't get the promotion. And there's the whole thing about like, well, you know, he's a man and he's got a family to support. And she's like, I have four kids. But, you know, there's, you know, the societal expectation of like men needing to be the provider. So they're more worthy of more money. And it's so frustrating. And doing the same job is somehow harder for them than it is for a woman. I literally couldn't stop thinking about my aunt. I was getting so mad because you just see those little things of your trainee being promoted above you.

And you're not allowed to say anything about it. Or just these fucking losers just hurtling over you because they can. And no, like even when men recognize in the office that it's wrong, they don't say anything. They just let it happen. Let their names get put on projects. Don't even. They want to get their name. They want to hurdle over you too.

Like it's just. Even the ones that like you think are on your side and then you're like, oh, wait, you're slowly doing the things that you're like every other man does or yeah yeah i mean like all those workplace situations where you're like well that man wasn't uh explicitly horrible to me so i guess he's good but it's like but he would sit through me getting harassed or like being treated like shit and i guess because he didn't do it himself I'm not mad. Listeners, you couldn't see it but all three of us just eye-rolled in unison.

Something I really liked with Lily Tomlin's character is you see we'll talk about her relationship with her son as well but you see her it's like that second shift mentality which I feel like comes up in a lot of like second wave feminism stuff because it was so focused on women in the workplace. But you see there's like that great shot of her talking on the phone,

checking in on things at home while also doing five things at work at once. And it's just like she's doing it all deftly and capably. And you're like, she shouldn't have to do this. Yeah, none of the men in this office are calling to make sure that their kids are getting places on time and all this stuff. They can't do anything. They're like, go get me a cup of coffee.

Go get me like gifts for my, they like, they delegate tasks that no one should be doing at work to like these capable women who should be spending time doing something else but he's like uh go shopping for me because women be shopping right it's it's really frustrating shopping and and the violet i don't know i violets like they're all three of them are amazing characters i was also like pleasantly surprised by i don't, like the three main characters are all very distinct personalities. They have very different

approaches to the same which you can tell in the minutes long fantasy sequences they have different approaches to how they would kill this man. But I liked that amazing scene where you get a Lily Tomlin monologue and then a

Dolly Parton monologue back to back so good where uh Lily Tomlin is um hold on I think I've got don't call me your girl right I'm no girl I'm a woman do you hear me I'm not your wife thank god or your mother or and but then she turns to Doralee and says or your mistress right so we all know that that is inaccurate fabricate petty wrong but you see this moment where like violet clearly fucks up and gets it wrong and then doralee comes to her own defense and is like wait is that what people think is going on yeah and uh immediately violet believes her it's not a question of like women are not believing women in this movie so i i kind of liked that there was an example of a female character

fucking up and then course correcting immediately and like siding with her female co-worker and then they all band together and yeah that was i mean and then it's so fucking great yeah like that scene is incredible they're like first of all i'm going home second of all we're gonna go get a drink third of all then we're gonna get high and plan how to kill our boss and then lily tomlin also uses that phrase pink collar ghetto at the bar which i thought was like again just like one of those things where i'm like oh my god that phrase still comes up all the time so like the pink collar I don't know if she was using it in the exact same context but like pink collar jobs there's been like a lot of I don't know I went through a phase where I was reading a lot about it basically jobs that are given

majority to women and the benefits and pay are not fair. Right. So like the most recent example where like pink collar will pop up a lot is social media jobs where the majority of people in those positions are women. They're not paid enough. They're not given enough benefits. Sometimes it's just a contract job even when it shouldn't be. And that's like another example of just like i mean for a long time like teaching was a pink collar job where like no one was getting paid enough and even now

it's like my mom has to buy her own school supplies for her own classroom which is fucking ridiculous whenever you see a teacher doing a fundraiser fucking give all of your money to it um but yeah i thought that that was cool that phrase that is, like, still a buzzy phrase right now is, like, comes up to – I don't know. This movie is great. This movie definitely has such relevance in today's time with everything going on. I wish it didn't. Yeah. No, it's like – this movie came out in 1980.

It's 2019 and it's, like – Yeah. Almost 40 years ago that really i'm like wow we haven't really solved literally one of these problems like not one everything stays the same yeah yeah it's it's oh man dare i say fucked up oh wow there you go again you owe us three more dollars it's worth it put. Put it in the swear jar. Worth every penny. But yeah, Jamie, you were starting to talk about that.

Like the monologue that Dora Lee gives where she is like yelling at heart and like saying, I've like, you've sexually harassed me for the last time. I'm going to shoot your dick off if you do it again. Like, I wish I had the actual text in front of me.

Oh, I've got it. It's so good. Oh, yes got it phenomenal writing are you guys ready i'm ready please okay get your scummy hands off me look i've been straight with you since the first day i got here and i've put up i feel like i should raise my voice an octave and do an accent right it would be so it would be mean to dolly parton i'm not gonna do that's fair nobody can to Dolly Parton. I'm not going to do it. That's fair. Nobody can emulate Dolly. No, I mean, I'm not going to try it. And I put up with all your groping and ogling and hollow apologies and chasing me around the desk because I need this job. But this is the last straw. Look, I've got a gun out there in my purse.

And up to now, I've been forgiving and forgetting because of the way I was brought up. But I'll tell you one thing. If you ever say another word about me or make another indecent proposal, I'm get that gun of mine and i'm gonna change you from a bishop to a rabbi with one shot and then you're just like oh my god it's great and then we stand and we cheer and we feel that's the other thing oh yeah that's the other thing i um didn't appreciate about this movie i think on like the first watch but there subtle ways, or maybe even not so subtle, but ways that each character is set up that they need the job that they have,

where Judy has just gotten divorced and she was a homemaker, so she needs to enter the workforce now to support herself. And another detail that was layered into that where he left her for his secretary, which is part of why like judy is so dismissive of um doralee whenever she's trying to reach out and be friendly because she still thinks about this affair that's happening and i want to touch more on that in just a moment triggered perhaps um so she needs to support herself. So she's entering the workforce. Lily Tomlin's character is a single mother of four. So she needs to support her family and herself. And then Doralee says, you know, I need this job. So they're all putting up with this horrible.

Her husband, Dwayne, is just at home playing guitar. He's like a musician, it seems. So, you know, he he's a an artist you know probably not making much money their their relationship and you get like one scene where you see them together and unfortunately the dialogue does not age very well because he's like smile for me smile more but the message of what he said i like what i was impressed by from that scene which was not smile for me but is that he listened to her and he believed that she was being harassed and he wasn't like you're making this up

which I think again is like another easy thing that unfortunately happens all the time so it was nice to be like okay so he is saying smile for me but it seems like she was like happy in her marriage and like had a support system that you're just like well that's lovely i like to think that when she becomes a country

western star he's like her her backup guitar he's in her band yeah in her band a star is born in dolly but like not because a man helps her be a star It's because she became a star on her own. My kid's lips laughing because we saw this movie together. And you, Jamie, and Anna were both crying. And Caitlin and I were both sitting there like, what the fuck is this movie? Hey, you cursed. I know I did.

I'll put $3 in the swear jar. Give it back. I'll cry again. Oh, I know I did. I'll put $3 in the swear jar. Give it back. I'll cry again. Oh, I hate that movie. You're my beautiful girl. But yeah, so one of the things that happens. Hey, I just want to go on a real craft trip. I just want to go on a real craft trip.

That was Bradley Cooper's actual dog. Okay, sorry. That's like the bassist vocal fry ever. It's just all vocal fry. People complain about womenest vocal fry ever it's just all vocal fry people complain about a women's vocal fry have you seen bradley cooper and a star is born they're like oscar nominated all right sure um anywho uh so one of the things that happens in this movie that sucks to see play out, but then it gets course corrected, like you said, Jamie, but the women in the office don't like Doralee because they think she's having an affair with the boss. her boss and uh he's spreading rumors that they're sleeping together so as soon as there's light shed on that that's when judy and violet are like oh let's all be friends you know sorry we made assumptions about you so we could be like oh man it's like women hating women for like these petty

reasons but it's also like right like it's men pitting women against each other and then figuring it out right yeah yeah i thought that that was like a cool example of like commenting on that too because it yeah especially in like 1980 where it might not i mean even now like it doesn't always occur i don't know like now now i feel like it's almost like an instinct but in every case like when i was definitely younger and working in offices and like male superiors quote unquote would try to pit women in the office against each other i didn't always realize that that was what was happening and so having like a movie point that out directly and then have them figure it out get mad and retaliate you're like oh this

is like almost a blueprint yeah for like what and like you said earlier it was really cool that like lily thomas character instantly believed dolly parton's character yeah yeah and was like oh this man is lying on your name well fuck him owe you three dollars and also let's lasso him and it also makes total like sense unfortunately that Doralee hadn't tried to discuss it with any of the women in the office before because she's like well you know it'll just make my reputation worse it'll look like I'm coming you know and she kind of has that conversation with her husband Dwayne of like I don't know really what's going on but everyone hates me and I can't talk to anyone about it. Like there's no place.

I mean, you know, you can't imagine that HR at this company or most companies would be very helpful to her. And so it just, yeah, it felt like in a very like heightened movie, it was like a very realistic situation yeah and then so much of that i like what i i feel like we talked about a lot of the same themes in the first wives club which is clearly you know like taking a page from nine to five of like so much of this movie that's so much fun is just the catharsis of like you know women in the workplace still have it so rough and again it's like we are seeing upper middle class white women yeah um and they have it rough and so and so all the untold stories of uh people from lower income backgrounds um of different races sexualities etc right but but then you get to see them take this like spectacular revenge that no one in real life really can right and it feels uh

amazing it is it is empowering someone's dick off i want to turn a rooster into a hen yeah sorry i just tried to do an accent i really apologize for that everyone it was tragically bad but yeah i mean uh just to piggyback off that conversation a little bit, this is a very white feminism movie. The characters that are featured in this, the empowered women are all middle class white women, conventionally attractive, that whole thing. Yeah.

There are a few people of color in the office, but they almost never get to talk. They only talk about the white woman's predicament. Right. Yeah, they're not really allowed to contribute anything to the story. We do see a black guy very early on who works in the mailroom, and he comments on how he's never able to get promoted out of the mailroom because they keep bringing in outside people. That may have been deliberate commentary on like, you know, white people tend to get favored for promotions or jobs over people of color. But it's so it's like just that one thing and it doesn't get any further than that.

That's the only time you even see him. Right. It sucks. only time you even see him right sucks it's and that that actor um his name is ray vitt and two years after this movie came out he was murdered by the lapd oh my god oh my god yeah and then we have uh there's a black woman in the office named betty she gets a scene with lily tomlin but they're only talking about lily tomlin and bet Betty is kind of just reassuring her and this is the scene where Violet is accidentally putting rat poison in the coffee right so yeah it's like they're all very much there as supporting characters and kind of background there's another character I think her name is Maria Delgado who gets fired she's the one who gets fired for

discussing her salary but I believe she gets rehired then whenever Hart leaves. And then they're like, come back and work part time if you want to. Yeah. Other than that, there is really no mind paid to people of color in this film. And it's all about, you know, the attractive white women and their struggle. Predicaments. Yeah. So while this is like

a feminist text it is not intersectional no but it does you know pave the way for more intersectional feminist texts to be made later on and we are still waiting for yeah where are they yes someone please fund them? And with that, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

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Minus the thing at the end. Okay, yeah. So let's talk about it. Well, I think I want to backtrack a little bit and talk about Judy's relationship with her ex-husband, Dick. Because he is... Tracksuit Dick he is tracksuit Dick tracksuit Dick brown track tracksuit I know it was like what a choice the worst color is yeah anyway uh he keeps showing up places stalking her he's stalking her he's like yeah I've been casing the joint because they're all staying at Hart's house like to like monitor him he's so creepy

and then this dude Dick is like hey I think I might want to get back together like let's hang out and she's like no you can't be here like I'm house sitting like please leave and he's like but I've been casing the joint you're here alone right it's so weird I've been stalking you for days

it's crazy how casually he delivers those lines he's like yeah of course I've been spying on you. Shut up. You're like, sir? You're like, excuse me, sir, that's a crime. Yeah. And, like, that doesn't get challenged at all. But, I mean, I don't know if, like, Judy was like, well, we used to be married.

So, you know, he can just I think it just shows like in like for a second there you think she's gonna like she was like yeah let's have a lunch and you think that that I was really worried that they would like yeah get back together or something I think they're just trying to show how inexperienced she is and like naive oh just yeah like just like but what i like about it is that like very quickly after she shows that she finds her strength again yes and then at the end she yeah she you know cusses him out screams him out she's like i'd never get back with you in a million years like hit the road i'm doing m&ms yeah and it's like and she's you know it's very over the top but it's a good like it's a good moment for that character and especially where that's i feel

like that doesn't first wives club kind of fucks that up too yeah because they get back together bet mendler character gets back with yeah her her husband right so, what I mean, like if that had to be there, which is like didn't have to, and then there were other ways to characterize her. Right. But at least it's like well played with the way it concludes.

Right. Yeah, he's basically introduced as an obstacle for her to like, be like, go away. You're like ruining this. You know,

we've kidnapped our boss and you're messing this up for us messing up our operation tracksuit right and then the way the story concludes the whole movie concludes is they've gotten rid of heart the three of them are like woohoo we run this company now uh and then there are like title cards of what happened to everyone. First, we see Violet. She gets promoted to like vice president. She essentially gets Hart's job, no? Yeah, because she's like so good at keeping her cool under pressure.

All you have to do is poison someone and you'll finally get that promotion you've been waiting for. Ooh. Yeah. Just a hot tip. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then we see Judy's title card and it says that she falls in love with and gets married to

the Xerox representative which is like a callback to like the whole Xerox mishap thing when it's like, oh, but now she loves Xerox so much that she's fucking the Xerox man.

You're like, not my favorite joke. Don't like it. Didn't need to be there. And then we get, you know dolly becomes she quits the company and becomes a country and western singer and we're like woohoo and then the other there's another problematic one where um heart's title card is uh he was abducted by a tribe of amazonians in brazil which you know perpetuates the negative stereotype that indigenous people are savages.

Savages, yeah. Yeah, so that's not good. Nope, at all. I do like, though, that there's no romantic subplot, because there's kind of no room for it and no need for it in this story. Yeah, right. It's a fucking revenge fantasy. Yeah.

And I feel like, again, that that's like would that have been possible if there weren't mostly women and queer people in the room i would guess not probably it's a big fat no i would guess not there is one passage i wanted to bring up oh please sure so right after they have uh kidnapped him and they're realizing that they can't just like keep him. Then when they decide they wanted what they want to do, they go, Violet, what could we use to keep Hart quiet? Judy, blackmail. Violet, blackmail. Oh, that's great.

But what could we get him on? Judy, a sex scandal. Take a picture of him with a prostitute. Doralee. No. Who'd care? Violet. She's right.

Hart would simply buy up all the copies and distribute them as Christmas cards. Yes. So this is shaming of sex work. Shaming of sex work. Not cool. Tasteless. Tasteless. Rich white lady joke.

Yes. It's like, let's hire a prostitute and exploit her in order to get, it's like, ew. To get back at your boss. Who cares? Yeah. That's not, that's, you know, very 1980s. Yeah, very of its time. Very, like, white feminism privilege bullshit.

Yes. We don't love it. We don't love it. I wanted to share some quick quotes about, just, again, just, like, going back into, like, the writing process for this, because it's very interesting to me where Jane Fonda I mean she has like a pretty storied history of fighting for

workers rights she's from a very privileged background and so a lot of times when she would try to make these stories about not extremely rich people she would have to do research on them, which I mean, what a trial. But she's like talked a lot about the process of like figuring out how to play these characters. And she like spoke to a lot of women who worked as secretaries. And she had the following to say. And she said she also specifically focused on women who had begun working later in life due to either being divorced or being widowed, which I think was a lot more common in the 80s than it is now. But she said, quote, what I found was that secretaries know the work they do is important, is skilled, but they also know they're not treated with respect. They call themselves office wives. They have to put gas in the boss's car, get his coffee, buy the presents for his wife and mistress. So when we came to do the film, we said to Colin Higgins, the director,

okay, what you have to do is write a screenplay which shows you can run an office without a boss, but you can't run an office without the secretaries, unquote. Mm-hmm. Fine. And that's, I think this is my favorite part of the movie, when they've kidnapped Hart, tied him up in, up in like snm gear in his house using also like the garage garage door opener that we see lily tomlin install earlier in the movie she fixed it on her own yes yes while being while having a serious conversation with her son about pot

about pot and about how she gets mistreated at work and yeah she's like uh i'm a mother of four and i just installed my own garage door opener and he's still calling me his girl we're like so they've kidnapped the boss they've tied him up he's you know wearing a collar stuff like that all right um and they realize that no one ever actually wants to see the boss face to face at work so like except for roz who is a traitor um but they're like having a pretty easy time of like him not being there so they use this opportunity to implement all these changes radical like yeah and i i almost wanted to see a little bit more of it like you get paid maternity leave and like right you know keep going keep

going health insurance for everybody free medicare for all 2020 daycare split split work time flexible hours it's like that wasn't the stat that they increased productivity by 20 percent. 20 percent. In like six weeks. It's like. Yeah, it's very impressive. So awesome to see that you can tell like the morale around the office is much higher. What kind of stinks about this is that they do all this stuff and then the chairman of the board comes in, thinks that Hart was responsible for all these changes. No one corrects him because if

they did, they'd have to be like, yeah, we did it because we had kidnapped our boss. But he still gets the credit and the promotion for these positive changes and this increase of efficiency by Colonel Sanders and the women don't get any recognition.

Is it realistic? Yeah, but it you know it just kind of sucks just that that's like sort of how that's how the movie ends where they don't get any recognition still that was a bit of a bummer but it's also like i said unfortunately hyper realistic yeah uh-huh um jamie did you want to get into the song at all? Oh, well, I just wanted to mention, I mean, just that even like the song 9 to 5 has some very subversive and cool lyrics that sometimes you miss because you're like, it's such a slapper. But she, I mean, she clearly is like writing about what actually happens in the movie that she references. They just use your mind and they never give you credit. Referencing when Lily Tomlin's idea is taken.

You would think that I would deserve a fat promotion, want to move ahead, but the boss won't seem to let me. It's just really good. Yeah, that's all I wanted to say is just like pointing out specific lines that reference the movie. And that are just like there's not a lot of working women's empowerment. This is still like the working woman's empowerment anthem it's my ring tone oh she's wait sophie is it your ringtone it's my ringtone you just like really like it's like it's really fun to hear it go off in front of people and see their faces especially men um and then uh quick note on the reception of this movie it is now regarded as a classic it has been uh and and for the most part it got like generally positive

reviews when it came out however because in 1980 even more so than now. The movie criticism community was really only old white guys. Even people who reviewed the movie well would still diss it for the parts that they just didn't understand themselves. So of course you got your boy, Roger Ebert, who, well, he did give the film three out of four stars, which is a lot for him. He doesn't usually like to see women,

and so this is a thrill for us. He doesn't usually like to see women, and so this is a thrill for us. But the way he talks about it is very condescending. He says, quote, It was pleasant entertainment, and I liked it, despite its uneven qualities and a plot that's almost too preposterous. You're like, uh. Gene Siskel had similar stuff. Variety said, quote,

Although it can probably be argued that Patricia Resnick and Colin Higgins script borders on the inane. The bottom line is it's fun where like basically you don't get a lot of critical praise for the story. You mostly just get like, wow, Dolly Parton's a movie star, which is true. Which is still most of the articles about this movie is like wow this was a star is born but even now there there was like some fucking uh editorial like flame war like in 2017 because um oh i think i saw this yeah where where, where 9to5 was being screened by the BFI, British Film Institute, and was just called in the description a feminist classic. And then someone at The Guardian wrote this long editorial, man, obviously,

being like, is it really a feminist text? Yeah, I read that. And then it turned, and you're like, that was two years ago. You know, it's just like, you can't, I'm like, dude,

we've like moved on from nine to five mentality, but it is a feminist text. You dumb. I mean, this movie was, you know, made into a TV series,

made into a musical version of the film. And, you know, it's like, it's influential. Wake up, Guardian guy. Who was, who was the author of that? I don't know. I don't even want to musical version of the film and you know it's like it's influential and wake up guardian guy who was who's the author of that i don't know i don't care sorry screw him yeah the fact that

this movie was such a commercial success just goes to show like how starved people are for representation for like female-led comedy movies or female-led projects in general. Like another thing I always appreciate is a funny movie starring women. I love to see women be funny. Lily Tomlin especially is like cracking jokes. She's, you know, yeah, I tore right through your memo

and it's a double entendre. It's hilarious. I know where to stick it love that line and then oh she's like i'm a doctor why am i talking to you piss off and it does pass the test but she's screaming at a woman to piss off uh just you know but it's man it's it's so funny she's so funny it's great and uh jane fonda and lily tomlin are both over 40 when they're filming this movie yeah uh you don't get to see women in their 40s really very much at all in cinema and again similar to um i mean i think like a lot of the strengths and weaknesses of

nine to five are kind of identical to the ones in first wives club yes where you're like well women over 40 do want to see themselves reflected in movies and uh and not just white women too but um you know again where's the fucking movie where is it um but this movie you know it moved the dial it kept things like it yeah it opened up a conversation about sexism and i just i love how like it's about like women coming together who like share a common motivation and a common interest in taking down this shitty sexist boss that they have and like uniting for this like progressive cause and like getting shit done it just makes me so happy it does yeah there was there's a feel good there's a article on Saturday Living that's like 11 things Dolly Parton taught us in nine to five and I think they're all really kind of cool it's like trust other women confront your problems head on always

stand up for yourself. Sometimes you just need to drink with your friends. Turn about is fair play, at least in fantasies. Stand by your friends. Always have your friends back. Sometimes you need to call your friends on their mistakes. Commit to your plans with your friends. A lot of friendship stuff.

Be honest with your friends. Follow your dreams. It's like, yeah, I mean, you just don't see stuff like that in movies especially in 1980 right yeah and even sadly today well do you guys have anything else i think those those are the main points that i had i think i just i really and this is coming from someone who has a panic attack every time they smoke weed but uh i just like lily tomlin like talking to her like teenage son being like yeah i don't really care if you smoke weed slip it in my purse like i feel like a lot of like mother characters from that era would have been like marijuana is the devil and she's just like fuck it i'm gonna smoke a one joint mall yeah and she like oh they just have so much fun

together i love that scene where they're just like laughing yes especially if you like are grazing frankie head you're like damn lily tomlin is is weed mom weed mom fully weed mom oh it's a good time movie. It is. It's a rom. If you haven't seen it, you gotta see it. Must. Does it pass the Bechdel test? Many a times. So many times. Lots. They do talk about

heart a lot, but there are many, many conversations between many combinations of characters that still pass. And only because they're trying to kill him. And only because, yeah. I don't even know that they're ever actually trying to kill him like they don't want to be murderers they just want to they just want him to get him out of there yeah here's three dollars i honestly there was a there was uh talks of a sequel to this movie which i would prefer to a reboot i'm i've really absolutely had it with the reboots a sequel with the original cast would be amazing.

Yeah. That ended up getting scrapped, but I'm like, ooh, they should do it, and then this time they should be trying to kill him. Yeah. They should take it to the next level. Yeah, let's go full horror camp and just do it. Well, I read this piece that was like, the reason why they aren't doing the reboot is because the content would be too similar because things haven't changed.

Right. And I was like, so like so depressing man i've had like male bosses like pretty much word for word the same things that mr heart says to yeah like judy or violet or shout out to my old old old boss for making me cry over paper towels. Fuck you. Shout out to my boss from two weeks ago. Should I put some sweet and love? La, la, la, la, la, la. Don't worry, he would never give me $5.

He'll never hear this. Let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. I've been waiting for this day. Oh, my goodness. Okay, I would give this a 4.25. I'm going to take off three quarters of a nipple because it is a jokes about sex work and tribe of people in the Amazon, stuff like that. But it just feels so ahead of its time. And it holds up, for the most part, pretty well.

It's a fun movie. I'd love to see women triumphing over their sexist oppressors. Just a few of the era things that it gets a little wrong. Could be more inclusive, could be more intersectional. But for 1980, 4.5 is pretty good. Yeah, so I'll give one to each of the gals Lily, Jane, and Dolly. I'll give

one nipple to the woman who's struggling with alcoholism who gets rehabilitation. Drunk feminist icon Margaret. Yes. And I will give my quarter nipple to scam goddess, uh,

hearts. Why? I mean, I liked Missy. I'm a Missy Stan. I hope she divorced him. Yes. Uh,

yeah, I'll go 4.25 as well. I mean, kind of for, for all the same reasons where it's like for 1980, this is like radical and but also mainstream which is like such a cool yeah space to occupy in like movie history it is too white it only acknowledges middle-class people and there is space in that movie for that to not be the case which we see

because there's like little moments and little like tastes of like, oh, let's explore that. What is going on with the guy in the mailroom? What's going on with the women of color in your office? And they're there, but they're not allowed to take up space in the narrative. Right. Which is very of its time and unfortunately still of our time a lot of the time. And so like there was space for that i wish that more space had you know cut a minute out of each revenge fantasy and let betty have a storyline yeah um

but for fourth of the time weaknesses i it's still it still is like everything that they're talking about is still relevant and unfortunately like not a lot of progress has been made. So that's unfortunate. I'm going to give it 4.25 nipples. Give all three of the gals one. Oh, I think Alfred Molina. Who could he have played? Well, anyone. But I think in this one he was like, you know what?

I'm just a fan i'm just he could have been colonel sanders he could he could he might have been too young to be colonel sanders and i mean he's a chameleon he would have been like 30 when this movie yeah no not even he'd be like 25 he's very young um he could have been duane he could like a less problematic duane wait which one's Dwayne? Dorley's husband. Oh, sure. Okay, let's go with that because I would love to see him kiss Dolly Parton. Oh, yeah.

They were horny for each other, too. Yeah, they were an active couple. They were kissing. Yeah, I was like, oh, they're about to. Good for them. They're married. They still do that. Good for them.

But yeah, Alfred Molina should have been Dwayne. So I'll give my fourth nipple to Alfred Molina and the last quarter. Or no, I'll give my fourth nipple to Betty and then give the quarter to Alfred Molina just because. Yeah. Sophie. Wow. Well, it's your time to shine.

Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm going to go with uh four four point two two five out of unison um and i'm gonna give one to lily one to dolly one to jane and then i'm gonna give one to uh wait i want to know the actress's name who played margaret because she made me extremely happy uh elizabeth wilson no no that's roz roz is getting the quarter nip spoiler um the actress who played margaret peggy pope okay shout out peggy pope uh you get a whole nip and then elizabeth wilson who played

roz for uh you know wanting to learn another language and bettering herself gets a quarter nip, even though she was deeply annoying. She was a traitor who was just too obsessed with the male boss, but she now knows French. Yeah, I was like, you know, she was like, oh, you want me to better myself? Bonjour. And you know what? Quarter nip for you, Roz.

Okay. Sure. Yeah. We hope she grew with time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Sophie. Whoa. You did it. you did it you did it that's amazing thanks for being here and thanks for being our producer oh and everything everything you've done thanks for being my friend of course where can we follow you and your dog anderson

online so i i only have instagram i don't have twitter That's for the best. Yeah. Yeah. But it's Sophie underscore Ray underscore of underscore sunshine. Yeah. Hi, everyone. It's present day. Jamie and Caitlin back again with the outro to the episode. By the way, Sophie has since gotten a Twitter account so you can follow her

because at the time of this recording she only had an Instagram. And her Twitter account, she has quite a few followers. She's got a big following. Yeah. And if you want to add to that, you can follow her

on Twitter at YSophieY There's underscores on either side of sophie so y underscore sophie underscore y y being w h y and not the letter y wow listening are you listening are you taking notes um so anyway that was our unlocked patreon slash matreon episode on nine to five if you want to listen to more matreon episodes because most of them we keep locked up okay yes so the only way to access those is by going to patreon.com slash Bechtelcast and subscribing. It's $5 a month. You get access to two bonus episodes every single month, plus the entire back catalog. And

there are somewhere around like 80, 90 episodes there. Something like that. Yeah, there's quite a few. So if you've run out of Main Feed episodes, that is the place to go. Patreon.com slash ByteDillCast. Also, remember to listen to ACKCast. The first episode is out now and you can listen to ACKCast on Mondays all the way through the summer. It's a summer podcast.

Yay. Is it spelled A-A-C-K? It's spelled A-A-C- a c k cast by jamie loftus you can also just search my name and it will come up because it is spelled uh in a confusing way might doom the show we don't know uh in any case everyone please check out act castcast. Please. And happy July. Happy. You know, enjoy your summer safely. Yes, please.

Bye. Bye-bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning

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subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the President of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nickname Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange

and violent summer, this season on the new new podcast Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad-free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to iHeart True Crime Plus only on Apple Podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose. This week, I had the opportunity to speak with Dr. Andrew Huberman. Dr. Huberman is a neuroscientist and professor at Stanford University School of Medicine, known for his research on brain function, behavior, and neuroplasticity, the brain's ability to adapt and rewire itself. The expectation on us is not perfection, being able to toggle between these different states. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty

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