The Bechdel Cast - Aliens with Andrew Ti

Episode Date: May 31, 2018

In this episode, Caitlin and Jamie mostly discuss the representation of women in Aliens with special guest Andrew Ti...mostly.(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @ANDREWTI on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name is Jamie Loftus. And we talk about the portrayal of women in movies on our podcast. Yeah, we do. Every week. Every freaking week. How many weeks now? 900? So many. I'm like coming into this episode worried

how come because we're in a genre that i hate and so i'm skewed i see we're in my least favorite genre i'm i'm sorry i guess coming in real nag right yeah well um we're in i would say my favorite genre so can we even be friends after this? No, no. But we should be because this is our, I mean, I think our best director of all time. And we have one very big Jim Cameron joint that we love and appreciate very much. That being, of course, ghosts of the abyss yeah honestly james cameron the thing with james cameron he should have just been an oceanographer and saved us all some time i

disagree because he's directed a lot of movies that i deeply love what movie is he not submerged in uh is he submerged in terminator terminator 2 Terminator 2. Does the Terminator not swim? I do not believe that. He would short circuit. Oh, wait, because he's a robot. Yeah. He's ones and zeros. I like robots right now. Well, you got one in the movie we're talking about today.

I know. He is a man, though, and that means this conversation did not pass the Bechdel test. Hey. Wow. That was actually a very great transition. Thank you so much. So on the Bechdel cast, we discuss, as I said, the portrayal of women in movies.

We use the Bechdel test as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation about the portrayal of women. The Bechdel test being, for us, two female identifying characters have to have names. They have to speak to each other, and their conversation cannot be about a man. Right. Can we beta test it really quick? I have a thought I'd like to express and I think it passes the Bechdel test, but, you know, it sort of gets a little murky at times.

Sure. Hey, Caitlin. Hey, Jamie. I think that Deadpool 2 is for losers. You know what, Jamie? And I won't go. I see what you're saying, and I think this already does not pass the Bechdel test because Deadpool is... But I'm not talking about the movie.

I'm not talking about the guy. Well, I mean, you can't talk about Deadpool the movie without recognizing that it's about Deadpool, the character who is male identifying. Deadpool 2 is for losers, and I'm not going to go. Well, T.J. Miller is in it and he can fuck right off. He can fuck right off. Yes. But he won't. He will not. He never will. Anyway so um that was not necessarily the best example of a conversation passing the Bechdel test. It was a good example of discourse. It sure was. Yeah. I agree. Hey let's introduce our guest, shall we? He is the host of the great podcast, Yo, Is This Racist? Andrew T.

Oh, hi. Hi. Hi, Andrew. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. So you brought us aliens. Wow. I feel like it got brought to all of us.

Let's not. It got hatched for us. It got hatched from an egg and then implanted into our chest cavities. For business. Yeah, for capitalism. For business. Business bad, says this movie. So that's cool.

We have done the movie Alien on this podcast already with guest Eliza Skinner. I went back and re-listen to that episode. It is one of our grosser episodes in that we spend almost the entire time talking about either jizz or jizz blood or vaginal flaps. Can we unpack that a little bit? Why do you think jizz, jizz blood, and vaginal flaps are gross? I think they're actually a beautiful thing

that is a common part of the human experience. My bad. I guess I suppose the language we were using was invoking some imagery that might be considered unpleasant. Flaps? Yeah. I would like to talk about flaps. I wasn't going to talk about flaps.

I didn't have any flaps in my notes, but maybe that's because we've just grown over the past year. Well, that's the other thing about that episode is that there wasn't a whole lot of discourse that we had necessarily. Right. But I think this episode's going to be different. It's going to be so discourse heavy that...

Our flaps will come undone. Our flaps will start jizzing. Our spewing. There's a lot more direct flap imagery in this movie than in Alien, I believe. I think this was like well i guess the there's more of everything there's more of every every gross thing that's the plural yeah yeah yeah yeah it's it's it's all of them um so andrew what's your history your relationship to aliens

just aliens in general not the movie oh good well i guess i had my first encounter um aliens is probably a movie that i mostly saw in pieces in edited on tnt sure love a good tnt edit probably do they edit out the flaps they must have too many two flaps but you know but. But I think the thing, I think if you edit out any of the overt alien vagina imagery, you have to edit it. It is actually really hard to draw the line. It's like, oh, this is too much. Well, then how come the last thing wasn't too much? And then I don't think you could have a movie because the whole point is dicks and vaginas.

Right. I mean, the vagina monster is a is a tale as old as time yeah of course we all mythical yep but you see you can't help but look at the vagina monsters and all these james cameron movies and be like poor katherine bigelow wait all these james cameron movies yeah i think this might be the only one there's no the two they're well both alien movies are flat heavy oh but he had nothing this might be the only one. No, the two. Well, both Alien movies are flat peppy. Oh, but he had nothing to do with the first one. He didn't? No. I have to go.

Or the third one, right? The third one was like Fincher. Yes, it was. And that's also the most underwater one, so all our narratives are crumbling. No, the fourth one is where they're underwater. Yeah, they swim through a big room full of water. Winona Ryder's there. That's right. Oh, you're right. It is four. Yeah, they swim through a big room full of water.

Winona Ryder's there. That's right. Oh, you're right. It is four. Yeah. I have since seen all of the, except minus any of the Alien vs. Predator pieces of art. I've seen all of those. I have not seen those.

Those are, to be totally honest, as far as these movies go, probably the best ones. They're the ones that absolutely know what they are. They do exactly what they promise. They do not think they're smarter than they are. I'm deadly serious. Any of the Alien vs. Predators are better than any of the Alien movies or any of the Predator movies.

Wow. Cool. Well, you know what? I'm going to argue with you a little bit on that one. I have not seen any of the AVP movies, but I mean, I really like Alien and I really like Aliens. And that's where it stops for me. Oh, sure.

So Jamie, you said that you don't like this genre. I like this genre a lot. And I especially like Aliens. And I didn't really grow up with this movie. I don't think I saw it until somewhere in my 20s. Yeah. Yeah, same. Sorry to finish my history.

No, no, no. That's it. You just reminded me. It's like, I watched parts of it a lot as a kid and then I think I must have watched

the whole thing, I don't know, hungover in my 20s at some point. I don't know. It is kind of a hangover movie. Yeah. In that it's a little

too 20 minutes long. Oh, no. And that Bradley Cooper and Zach Galifianakis are in it. Yeah. And carrying around a baby. They might as well.

You could insert them seamlessly. I mean, Newt is sort of a baby that they're carrying around. There were three different points where I was like, oh, in my notes, I wrote the climax of the movie for three days. And I was like, when is it going to happen? Yeah. Then there's just more vagina monsters in the next scene. And it's like, yes, queen, go off. Or I want to go home.

Like, I just, I don't know. Do you think it was too long? Or do you think we could have, sorry, like, kept on going too long? Or do you think they just took way too much exposition at the top? Because that's where I was like. The exposition was. It's so slow. It's very slow.

There's a lot of, like. And fake outs. There's like a lot of long... And fake outs. There's a boring scene that is a fake out. Like the opening scene where you're like, it's boring and then briefly horror and then it was a dream. And you're like, what? Why? Who cares? Who cares?

It's establishing her mindset, the horror that she experienced. I think it's there for a reason. I know. In 2018, you would do that in literally under one second. Sure. Right. set the horror that she experienced i think it's there for a reason i know it's just in 2018 you would do that in literally under one second sure right she would look at one photograph and then we'd be like we get it uh yes this movie did come out in 1986 which is also the year i was born so birthday thank you so much so jamie you saw it for the first time saturday night did not like it but it's like one of Saturday night. Did not like it.

But it's like one of those things where it's like I can recognize that this movie succeeds on a lot of levels and also never want to see it again. Sure. Yeah. Well, should I get into the recap? Yeah, recap it. Okay, let's recap. So the story basically picks up where Alien leaves off. Which is where?

I forget what happens in the first one. At the end of Alien, the alien has infiltrated the ship. The mainframe? Killed everyone. The mainframe. Killed everyone on board except for Ripley. She's the only survivor she gets into. And Jonesy the cat.

Queer icon. Queer icon. I would say eight-nippled icon cat facts with Caitlin. Also, hey, wait, just real quick. I have learned another cat fact or two. What? Uh-huh. That's not part of the bit.

People have been really upset that I only know the one cat fact. So here I am proving to you all that I know that a group of cats is called a clowder. What? That's fun, right? That's fun. A D or a T? A D. Clowder. Clowderowder what that's fun right that's a fun d or a t a d clowder clowder oh that's pleasant how did we not know that i don't know but now you know and this is cat facts with caitlin also a cat can jump up to six times its own length and cat owners are 17 percent more likely to have a graduate degree which i think is a great transition into my graduate degree, which I do have a screenwriting master's from Boston University.

I don't like to bring it up, but there was. But you don't have a cat. Not at this time. Not right now, but I have in the past and I will in the future. Cool. Anyway, okay. So the end of Alien is Ripley's the only survivor. She gets into an escape pod, ejects the alien out into space, and then goes into hypersleep, which is where this movie picks up.

She is found kind of just like floating around the universe. They're like, hey, who are you? And she's like, oh, no, I've been asleep for 57 years. She learns that her daughter, that we didn't know she had in the first one i don't think i don't think so uh grew old and passed away which i will say she does react to this this is part of the ripley character that i find very interesting is she's able to compartmentalize that devastating fact pretty efficiently like which i mean we'll get into this more when we discuss the character in depth but like she whipsaws trauma around a lot in these movies because a lot of terrible shit happens to her right like incessantly nothing good ever happens to her ever once right once she's cursed

yeah but i was like amazed that like you do see her react to it it's not like the movie ignores it but then in kind of in the next scene, she's at a meeting. I was like, whoa. Yes. I would be bedridden for years. So she was. Well, that's true. She did have 57 years.

Before she knew that she had a dead daughter. True. Yes. In the next scene, she's giving a deposition of sorts about this alien attack, basically recapping, doing a Ripley's famous recap of the first movie. Ripley's believe it or not recap. Right. They don't believe it.

That's the big, they are not. No one believes her because they're mad that she destroyed their expensive ship and they demote her. To be fair, she did. They made a big deal about how that ship was a total shithole in the first movie like who cares right and also what company 50 years later would be like we're really like that's if some if now someone was like that thing that happened in the late 60s we're still extremely salty about like when you crash my car 50 years ago when i

quit my last day job i made sure to walk away with an extremely powerful fan that I'd stolen from my office from a set. I'm going to make fan art of you carrying a large fan out of a building and looking mad. Fan art is in your fan of him, but then also of him holding a fan.

No, your fan art is the fan. I'm a fan of fan art. I'm a fan of the fan, so it's really a triple fan kind of thing. Yeah, I'm personally a fan of fan fan art i'm a big i'm a big i'm a fan of fan art i'm a fan of the fan so it's really a triple fan kind of thing yeah i'm personally a fan of fan fan art so i just had an annual anyway okay so little tidy trickle of blood coming out of your eye it's so cool so they ripley's believe it or not they do not believe Ripley's. Until they learn of an alien attack on the same planet that they had honed in on the beacon in the first movie and found the alien ship and all of that. Since then, people have been colonizing it and trying to terraform it and all this stuff. And she's like, well, check out that planet.

And they're like, we have and nothing's there. Except there is something there. That ship is still there. Same fucking ship. The aliens. Cover ship is still there. Same fucking ship. The aliens. Covered in parking tickets. Fuck that ship. There's also in that whole meeting scene,

because we're supposed to be in the distant future at this point. Because Alien is in the distant future. And then Aliens is 57 years after the distant future. But everyone still has the same terrible haircut from 1986 and using computers from that era as well they're using big fat thick computers yeah look i don't know why you're criticizing this perfect movie all right anyway have a double collar situation going on like i don't think he actually does but his vibe feels like he does like two

shirts he feels like two shirts two shirts you know what rap name yeah a good white rapper name also bill pexton's in this movie yes i'm almost there he's not doing a good job he's really bad so the company and all these people don't believe her and her alien attack story until these aliens attack the people on this planet. So Ripley is called in to help and she eventually agrees and she's like, oh, fine. And then all these Marines are also. They kind of blackmail her. They're like, you're a dock worker, but you can go all the way from being a dock worker to like fifth in charge of like a shitty, shitty ship. Right. They basically give her title back,

which they took away for not believing the thing that happened to her. Yeah. This movie starts with someone not believing what a woman says in spite of ample evidence. Right. Timely. Mm-hmm. So this whole crew of Marines join her on this sort of like recon rescue mission.

So there's Gorman, he's like the commanding officer type of dude. Burke is Paul Reiser, the guy who like speaks on behalf of the company. Yeah, he's Mr. Business. Yeah, there's Bill Paxton playing Hudson. There's a character named Drake. There's Hicks. There's a pawn. There's Frost. There's Bishop. He's the artificial person. Those are the dudes of the women. There's Vasquez, Farrow, and Dietrich. And then I think I'm probably leaving some people out, but those are kind of the main players. I feel like they do take pains to kind of integrate the military. Like there's women.

Yeah. And they are doing all of the available jobs. Like Vasquez is the big guns person. Yes. Oh, yeah. We'll talk about this. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry how dare

you okay so they arrive on the planet they scope the place out they find newt who is like the sole survivor of the alien attack on this colony of somewhere around 100 or more people um newt is an 11 year old girl she's dirty she's dirty she She's dirty. She lived in tubes. And Ripley is like, I used to have an 11-year-old girl. And this one's here now. So I'm going to treat her like she's my new daughter. Yeah. Adorable. It's cute.

Adorable. I love it. Just grimy, weird acting little child. OK. So then the crew goes in. They find the big alien nest. Some aliens attack them. A few people die.

They try to leave the planet, but an alien has gotten into their spacecraft and kills all the flight crew, and then the spacecraft crashes, and they can't leave the planet now, so they're stuck. They go back inside the facility. They set up some gun traps.

Bishop's like, Hey, I'm going to go find another ship and do a manual override. Bill Paxton's yelling. Bill Paxton's screaming at the top of his lungs. Oh, gosh. So the aliens come back. They're closing in on them. Burke is like, I'm a capitalist.

And everyone's like, you motherfucker. Oh, and he tries to have Ripley and Newt impregnated to get past quarantine it's a whole thing it doesn't work and then newt gets captured so ripley's like i gotta go back in for her she's still alive and she is like the planet's about to fall apart planet's covered in flaps it's just very flappy it's flat planet so yeah ripley like she ties some guns together. She goes in and gets Newt. And then she stumbles across the queen alien and her whole nest of eggs. And she's like, oh, shit. And then they manage to escape. But the queen gets on the ship.

And there's this big battle at the end. And Ripley puts her forklift suit on and kills the queen bee. Delivers a line. And is like, get away from her, you bitch! And then flap, clap. Action. We clap and then the flaps come out. And the flaps are squirting and a man is torn in half, but he's fine.

And then the little kid is released and she delivers a line. And then it ends. That's it. So that's the story of Aliens. Why did they just call it Alien 2? Well, we've been so easy. I feel like this is so confusing. Yeah.

And then the next one they call Alien 3. 3. But it's like cute. What? Yeah, it's so stupid. And now when they sell all of the movies together they call it a quadrilogy which is like i just want to say it's tetralogy is it or would be if it's four oh like tetrahedron four oh wow i think don't correct me on this

quadrilogy just sounds so dumb to me yes Yeah, it sounds the best phrase. Anyway. Okay, I have a lot of thoughts on this movie because unlike most action movies of this era and then all of the ones to date, I think it does a fairly good job portraying not just one female character but a at least sizable-ish cast of them yes between Ripley and Vasquez which there's plenty to talk about uh with that character yeah that's um yeah but then also Newt I think in a lot of movies like this a small child especially a female one would be treated like a huge burden and be the source of a lot of like obstacles and like we have to rescue you and protect you the whole time but like newt's actually doing a lot to sort of contribute to well yeah there's a few different moments where her knowledge

is like key to moving the plot forward like uh when they go into the tuby things yeah where newt grew up and she knows how to navigate them and yeah yeah you need a greasy tunnel child to fight the like greasy rat the greasy bugs she's a she's a street rat yeah and uh they need that yeah they need that at a few different points just a bunch of marines can solve it but no you need just this just fucking filthy child well there's a we're outsourcing it. We've got a third party client. It's a dirty kid we found. There's a great conversation between Bill Paxton's character and Ripley

where Bill Paxton's like, we won't last 17 hours out here. And Ripley's like, this little girl lasted longer than that without any weapons or training. And he's like, well, let's put her in charge then. And it's like, honestly, let's? Why in charge then. And it's like, honestly, let's? Like, why not?

OK, let's not take it to the place where we're putting a dirty child in charge of the ship. Honestly, I think that would be very progressive. And I want to see that movie. It's called Jimmy Neutron. The kids are in charge, and it's a nightmare. I think, ooh, here's a retroactive theory about Jimmy Neutron. It was a really fun movie designed to keep kids in their place. And they're like, you need parents, see?

Or you'll end up like Jimmy Neutron. Old JN. Yeah. I used to have a crush on the one who peed in the shower. Anyways, yeah, the character of Newt, there is also a few different moments. The scenes between her and Ripley are generally very nice um and aren't too heavy-handed with like that i am your mommy now which i feel like a a less good movie would have really played those moments up to be

like obnoxious kind of yeah this movie doesn't And then there's also that kind of fun little subversion where Ripley patronizes Newt a little bit by being like, your doll would be brave. And she's like, it's a doll. Yeah, she's like, it's a piece of plastic. It doesn't have fat dreams. It cannot feel jack shit. Sigourney Weaver, don't patronize me.

And then Sigourney Weaver apologizes. Yeah. And it's like, I'm sorry, you're right. That was rude. I was like, wow, what a pleasant discussion this was. It would be fine if that little girl was smoking a cigarette that entire movie. Like it would not be out of place if she was just like, you don't know the shit I've seen, lady. She is wise beyond her years.

And the fact that she's the only survivor of what seems like mostly adults is like, I think, pretty remarkable. She's a slippery little tunnel kid don't fuck with this little is she i i wasn't paying close enough attention because i got real bored in the first act is is she the kid from the the family that finds that they get sent okay so you're right yeah so i i'm honestly i'm pretty impressed with the movie's uh depiction of that child character because I think a lot of movies will be like, oh, well, here's this extra burden that you have to deal with that like really just has to be dragged along.

But in this movie, she's like given a purpose and like actually contributes to the progression of the plot at some points. And like the connection she makes with Ripley makes a lot of sense for both of them. And like you said, it's like not too heavy handed. I think the movie shows a lot of restraint in that relationship, which I appreciate. Yeah. Like a lesser movie would have had like a lot of embraces and music swelling where this movie exercises some restraint.

And that does happen in Alien 4 where Sigourney Weaver is talking to Winona Ryder and basically is like, you're my daughter now. And then they hug and smooch and are... Pretty much. It's like on that vector of like okay, you gotta say all that stuff. But that's also a bad movie. That's the one where she makes that backwards

basketball shot though and makes it for real and everyone freaks out and they can't cut it in time before... I think it's Ron Perlman is like literally you can see him saying, holy shit, in the back of the frame. Because she was supposed to just toss a basketball over her head and then they were supposed to cut it. But it actually goes in the basket. So Courtney Weaver does? Yeah.

From like the three point line. It's hilarious. She's amazing. Yeah. Man. Feminist icon. There's not a lot of movies in general, regardless of the genre, that treat like, like you know in a movie where the cast is largely adults like child characters are not usually treated with any respect or agency so for younger kids who saw this movie i'm sure that was like cool yeah oh wait how young

it'd be real fucked up to show this to any kid don't show this to your kids i disagree that slippery little tunnel kid yeah be you if I died. Yeah. Here's your bucket of old motor oil. Here's a shovel. Go have fun in the backyard. Is it? Okay, but the evolution, because Alien is Alien.

Like Sigourney Weaver is the star of Alien because of the final girl tropes of horror movies. Yes. But now she gets in an action movie and they do a good job of like not and i guess she's not very final girly in alien because it's it's just that narrative structure but then otherwise it's very like it doesn't follow a lot of the tropes that the final girl right that the movie movies who do have like a final girl trope do because it's like it's all like she survived because she's the virgin yeah so it doesn't adhere to a lot of those she takes the the whiff of that yeah i think like on paper it would look more similar than actually

what it actually is because she i mean in an alien too she has like so much like knowledge and agency i like how you're just gonna you're insisting on calling it alien too alien oh and oh no i was calling it an alien sorry i meant as well in alien the first one I see uh she's yeah she is kind of like I didn't even thought of that she is kind of like final female because it's a horror movie it's a slasher movie yeah yeah just set in a garbage space but it's like the twist there is that she actually has skills and abilities and that's why she survives or a big part of why she survives.

Right. And then that carries over into Aliens where she isn't given a whole lot to do in the first, I would say, maybe hour of the movie because she's really just called in as a sort of consultant because they recognize,

oh, wait, actually you have gone through this. So I think that was at least cool that like and a lot of times if there's a movie we're like an expert needs to be called in it's a man so the fact that like she is called onto the scene because of her like expertise and her experience and also given a role of like authority and power yeah because i think she resumes her position as is it lieutenant or something like that i think so they do that shitty action movie thing where they have the scene where sigourney weaver she has to prove her abilities and all the guys have like unhinged their draws they're like whoa the girl can do a thing like that my my least favorite thing that happens in action movies superhero movies

in a lot of different genres of like we see the main female character demonstrate even a modicum with something like robotics or like whatever and they should not be shocked because they know like that was like part of her job in the first but they were like oh my freaking god right this chick in a robot suit everyone's a half mass but they're also like wow she can do it i guess we better like give her an entry-level job you know and i okay so that is a bad trope i didn't bother me so much in this movie as it does in other movies because one usually when that happens usually when that female character like has to prove herself or I didn't bother me so much in this movie as it does in other movies, because one, usually when that happens, usually when that female character like has to prove herself or like,

as we always talk about that McSweeney's article where she's like, I'm the token female in this action blockbuster and I can kick. One time. Usually when that happens, the female character is sexualized in some way, or like what she's doing is presented as like this very sexy thing but also like look how competent she is but she's also extremely sexy while doing it and in this movie it's her like clamoring into a forklift basically and then like lifting up a thing and

they're like and yeah the guys are like teehee wow i didn't expect she could do that. Yeah. I don't know. It just it didn't bother me as much as it does in other. It's not the worst example of it. But I just I always do want to make sure that I point that out. Because in that scene, I think that the guys are supposed to sort of represent the audience to an extent of like, wow, look, she really can do it. You can trust this character moving forward. You know, like just reassuring the audience that she is competent. Sure. Which isn't necessarily a thing that should have to happen given what we know about this character.

Sure. Also, she's from the past, so who knows? That's true. She's like 180 to them. Yeah. She's their grandma. There's not enough like unfrozen caveman jokes in that. It seems like there's a lot of opportunities for her to be like, so do you what music do you guys listen to and they're like what what is this

yeah that's a good point those are the jokes of the alien franchise we need yeah we gotta we we gotta make a power sheet of some unfrozen sigourney weaver jokes we can make yeah when's like the comedy heist alien movie coming out. I want to see that version. Stealing credits and robot parts. Space movie. These things are so gross. But in that scene, whenever the guys are like, whoa, I couldn't believe she could operate a forklift, that almost certainly would not have happened if she were a man.

They would not have had that reaction. Right. And I don't think that there would have been such like a narrative drag in the in the first act of the movie of if i mean let's just go there if if like there was a male character who was frozen in the past who came back i feel like it would be a more likely narrative choice for this era to you know like treat him as a returning hero and not just be like, hey, you're probably lying and you're probably traumatized because of what happened with your kid, you know, where they assume and part of the reason that she's kind of discredited in that first scene

is because it's like, well, you've been through a lot and we don't really believe what you're saying, basically. Right. It's like she's hysterical is the implication. Yeah. And that's what they say they say something like i don't remember the exact quote but they suspend her license because of it they remove all of her credentials which is a very frustrating scene to watch because it's basically her talking to a room full of mostly men being

like here's this horrible thing that happened to me and they're like but i don't believe you and it's kind of your fault when you think about it yeah so we're actually tell her it's her fault right and then she gets very angry for not being believed as one would and then they're like oh actually it seems like you're crazy so uh bye right it's very frustrating yes but that's not like the movie doing a bad job it's just just the... She's being gaslit by a corporation. Exactly. This movie is anti-corporation. It is.

Which, if you look at movies that came out, I mean, this is like Pete Gregan. Kind of unusual for... I mean, where... Said it before, say it again. Ghostbusters is the most pro-corporation movie of all fucking time. Oh, yeah. And this is like the same...

They're just like a fucking startup. They're startup bros. They're startup bros. They're startup bros who get a bad loan. Yeah. Fuck those guys. They're bad. And they hate the EPA. We all know that.

Ghostbusters is the worst startup of all time. That's true. Yeah. I genuinely prefer the new Ghostbusters because I'm just like, it's just, I hate, it turns out I hate anything made before like 1999. Yeah. Everything is so slow. Yeah, it's probably understandable. Everything is so slow. Thankfully, Jimmy Neutron came out in 2001.

Yeah. So it qualifies to be your new favorite movie. Yep, yep, yep. So in a lot of action movies where the protagonist is a woman, I feel like a lot of them still don't do a very good job because they don't spend that much time developing that female protagonist or they're just like sort of the vehicle to propel this story but aren't given that much characterization i'm thinking of movies like laura croft tomb raider that we did an episode on

right or in movies where like there's like a female action star among other characters like black widow in like the Avengers Marvel Universe. I had a question about that. That my friend who I watched Avengers with brought this up. Well, no, okay. This is stealing this question from Todd Levin, but this is, you know, relevant. Are we ever going to get away from the like Avengers part where they can only fight other women in the big battle scene? It's like... Who brought this up oh it

was um iffy on our black panther episode where that yeah that is that is a huge trope where if there's a big battle scene where a group of people are fighting each other and there are like women on either side there it's like they always have women James Bond movies always do that Fast and Furious movies always do like they have to bring in women on the... Not they have to. They should, I guess. You can have criminal women. It's great.

Women can do anything. But they specifically clearly cast the woman to literally be the equal or the foil for the woman only. And I think in... Like, this is who you get to beat up. And there's a few examples where women are i mean i thought of kill bill right away where the the main female action protagonist is fighting men but the opposite of that is that character is sexualized pretty intensely throughout

that entire movie so i don't know i can't think of or i guess maybe it's it's and you can have female like heroes beating up up faceless dudes. And I guess I'm about to answer my own question, which is you can't have Captain America beating up the poor Thanos' woman. Oh, okay. Because that is a bad look. I guess? If Captain America hits a lady, my instinct is not good.

Sure. Yeah. That woman's been killing people and blah blah blah you know that's the argument it's sexist not to beat her ass you know what i'm saying right that's it that's an interesting this i bet that there's stuff written on that too i mean i think it depends on the kind of character like obviously captain america can't hit any woman he wants yeah that's bad right of course that but it's like the part. It's such a start. You're just like you knew when there was like a bad Thanos woman that she would have to fight Black Widow.

Well, in terms of villain parody. Well, but if we go into like Disney lore, I think that there's some examples of male heroes killing female villains. Oh, sure. Oh, Little Mermaid, Little Mermaid. Little Mermaid. Also Sleeping Beauty. He slays the dragon who is Maleficent. I think that there are some examples of that.

But yeah, it's always, that's an interesting. Yeah, I mean, obviously we don't, you know, violence against women is bad, but there are definitely, that trope exists of like, if there's a bad woman, only a woman on the good side can fight her. Although I thought where you were going, and that's why I brought up the Black Panther discussion,

is like T'Challa's army is all women, and we see them fighting men. So it's not like they're, yeah. So I mean, I like seeing that. I watch women beating men's asses the only time movies that's the only time it's it was real gross in a recent movie that i remember was i think john wick 2 where keanu reeves like just beats up ruby rose and it's like this is fucking terrible no it's really unpleasant i didn't see john wick or john wick 2 john itick too john i think it's

john wick too it's one of the john wicks yeah but he just beats up ruby rose and she is a teeny tiny skinny lady and like whatever of course it doesn't really matter but the optics of it are so fucked up that i'm just like why would you agree to this i don't know where i land on that's like a murky yeah i'd have to see that's a murky area because you want to have parody in villains and everything. Right, but also because media is so effective, like if you're a teenage boy and you see that, can you use that to justify bad behavior? I don't know.

I don't think we have an audience, and we probably never will have an audience that's sophisticated enough. It's like having the n-word and huck finn everyone's like oh you know this is a good like teachable moment and like yeah it's also a moment for a bunch of white 14 year olds to yell the n-word all the time yeah to use it as permission to do something that wasn't the intent or maybe was the intent who knows who knows right anyway sorry all that to say no it's quite all right no no no i think that that's like an

interesting well uh if you're listening we would love to hear your thoughts or or if there's any like pieces or anything that's been written on this that you could direct us to share please and if you're not listening then especially if you're not listening that's a yeah i'm on the fence about it it's one of those that's like you see it both ways it's easy yeah you kind of you you feel like you have a an idea of it in theory but almost every time you see in practice you're like nope i think i want yeah it's like i want to say as of right now i want to be like hey no that you know there can be parody in fight scenes but i also can so easily see the wrong type of person seeing that and using it as an excuse of like, well, this must be okay to do to anyone I want because people who see movies are stupid.

Unexcuse me? Especially Caitlin. Well, because I mean, feminism is all about equality among the genders and like women being equal to men so in theory you could be like well yeah like if men and women are equal then women can be beat up by men and it'll be fine but i think too soon too soon yeah too soon and that's also just so weird having your cake and eating it too of like the patriarchy has had the cake and now eating it too means that you can hit us on screen now yeah right also and because women have been the victim of so much violence at the hand of men yeah we're not anywhere near there should be a solid 25 years of just women kicking men's asses yeah in movies and then we can bring this question up yeah yes

right now and maybe maybe too soon. Yeah. Not impossible, but too soon. I think so. That was an interesting discussion. Yeah, I agree. And to conclude, the original point I was making is that the female characters

in action movies, if they are participating in the action, they're usually not characterized very well. They're underdeveloped. We don't know much about them. Yeah, they just don't have

any real traits beyond being kind of like badass. Whereas with Ripley, I think a pretty, I mean, a lot of characterization goes into her. We know that she's very smart. She's very capable. She's highly rational. But she also has like a nurturing side with where we see with Newt. And I think she's a much more developed and multi-dimensional character than we are used to seeing especially in women characters in action movies I think it's also like a very of the moment at that time statement on like a female character being a very capable mother figure at least and also being very good and very capable and self-sustaining at her job because at

this time it was still relatively new for women to be in the workplace and also be viewed as you know able to be a good mother right so oh man i feel like when this came out like the same way anytime anything happens in pop culture now like right-wing people are like well this is actually like a conservative movie you can just see like all the fucking people are like well this is actually like a conservative movie you can just see like all the fucking like daily mail like this is actually about margaret thatcher and like this is you know this is really about how conservative women can do everything doesn't just feel like that definitely happens yeah yeah yeah i kind of hate when movies are co-opted for a bizarro cause. Like, yeah.

It ruins it. But I have to think that it just means that this movie is a well-written movie, too. Which, by and large, James Cameron movies do pretty well in its treatment of female characters. Where it go to, oh, I don't know, Titanic. Ever heard of it? Some great, like, almost all great female characters. And in The Term terminator at least the first two movies i don't i'm not super familiar with the ones after that but um sarah connor is a huge badass and i know like his movies have been criticized his treatment of women has

been criticized to some degree he's also come out and said pretty stupid things in recent years like he had a quote about wonder woman, which was kind of dumb, where he's basically like being very self-congratulatory. He's like, well, look at how I treat my women in my movies and blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, you're missing the point, James Cameron. Yeah, at the end of the day, he is a straight white man born before 1975

and therefore is wrong about most things. But it's also like, dog, keep your mouth shut, and you can still be like Actions Paul Feig. Just be quiet. Everyone will grudgingly be like, well, at least the movies are more or less on point. If you just fucking shut your mouth when people ask you about the state of feminism,

why say anything? Yeah, it would have been so easy to just be like, seems pretty good. Liked the movie. Yeah. Liked the movie. That's all I needed to say. Super easy. Jim, what are you doing? Do you all ever call him Jam Cam? Jam Cam? Ooh, no, I love that. That sounds like a good reality show. Just throw it out there.

You can have it. Jam Cam. Is it a James Cameron prank show? Yeah. It's a Jam Cam. Well, so Jamie, you mentioned Titanic, and I think this serves as a transition into my next talking point, because Vasquez, the character in Aliens, is in Titanic as the Irish mummy. Oh my God! That's her.

Which is a good transition into, I didn't notice that because in Titanic, she is white. She is white. Because as a person, she is white. Vasquez, who is a Latina character. The actor is Jeanette Goldstein, who is Jewish. She is of Russian, Moroccan, and Brazilian descent. She's Jewish from Beverly Hills. But she's a white and Brazilian descent. She's Jewish from Beverly Hills. But she's a white lady, essentially.

She's Jewish from Beverly Hills. She's a white lady. We can say it. I found a little excerpt that says that Goldstein was outfitted with dark contact lenses to hide her blue eyes and even covered in full face and body makeup to cover up her white skin.

She is literally in brown face in this movie. There's pull quotes from her talking about, at the time, complaining about how the makeup made it hard for her to do the part. Because she's sweaty and wet the whole time. Maybe you should have just cast a Latina actress in that role and you wouldn't have had to do that. Right. Yeah. That's troubling yeah it's just i mean and i i guess i don't know the state of brownface in movies in 1986 specifically

i have to imagine it you know is on the i don't is on the, I don't know. I mean, I genuinely don't know. But it's obviously unacceptable. And I don't understand. Yeah, I just don't understand. Yeah, it's kind of a bummer all around where you're like, why? It's so unnecessary. Right. It's such a weird choice.

I think it's because she's a pretty beloved character. And it would have been great or it is great to have a woman of color character be such a beloved character. But the fact that the actress playing that character is not actually a woman of color. Just feels like a hollow victory. Right. But there are a few things I do want to say about this character that I think are worth noting aside from i mean setting aside the fact that she's in it's complex actresses in brown face and uh that i guess if there is a silver lining it's not played for laughs at all i mean they even attempt to make like a like an anti-latino a joke about illegal immigrants and she tells him to go fuck himself basically yeah which makes it all the

more baffling that they didn't just hire the right actor for the part like it just doesn't yeah yeah because the character is treated with respect pretty consistently and it's like proves herself again and again and he's a well-written character there's nothing wrong with the character it's all the execution that's wrong right because so vasquez is i think it's interesting that we see on screen a fairly mask presenting woman you don't see a lot of representation of that on screen in like mainstream hollywood movies she's a space yeah i mean unless it's like that type of character is the butt of a joke which there's a brief moment where bill paxton says something like uh hey fast guys have you been mistaken for a man and she comes back back with, no, have you?

And then she slaps a high five. And then Bill Paxton goes, ah, fuck. Yeah, he got me. I got jam-canned. Aside from that, though, her sort of mask presentation isn't the butt of a joke. And by and large, she's very respected and seen as an equal among her male colleagues that's accomplished very quickly like in that scene paxton comes at her with that she shuts him down and then her other friend is sort of like yeah

that's good you rule and then she slaps him in the face and i was like whoa she's coming in hot in every regard it was exciting well she just woke up I was like, whoa, she's coming in hot in every regard. It was exciting. Well, she just woke up. Right. She was also doing it. She's doing a pull up. Yeah, she did. Insult someone.

Does another pull up. Yeah. Hits someone. You're just like, whoa, she's impressed. It's a pretty good scene, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, what a space marine.

Holy shit. So through the rest of the movie, she is one of the people who survives pretty close to the very end. Oftentimes, she is leading the way if they like going into a new area that they're unfamiliar with she's like going in first holding the biggest gun she's fearless in charge like who's in charge on the ship like who is the person who's in charge well it's the gormless new guy is technically in charge okay and then the older black dude and then yeah a pwn dies pretty quickly so he he was like sort of the highest ranking oh so gorman is like right delivering

orders from behind the scenes a pwn dies so then yeah the next in command ends up being hicks at some point the reason i ask is uh i don't know how the loftiest rule factors into this movie i think it may not succeed in this movie. Because I would say Ripley is ultimately the woman most in charge, and she has the most hair. Yeah, she is not. But in Alien 3, she shaves her head, and she does become the baldest woman in charge.

Okay, so Alien 3 passes the loftiest test. The franchise passes this maybe specific movie. And she doesn't have a lot of hair. I mean, you could argue that the alien queen is bald. That's true. She's bald as hell and she's larger than in charge. She's all flaps. She's hairless flaps.

But she in charge. Which is an unfair precedent. She's in charge of her alien family. Of her organization, yeah. If it was really an empowering movie, the flaps would have hair. Yeah. You're right. A little stubble.

Don't wax my flaps. That's what my shirt's going to say. In any case. That's my don't tread on me. Just a little flap. A hissing flap. Vasquez, though, yeah, I mean, she, like the men, are never like, oh, we have to protect her.

She might be one of the crazier ones. Yeah. She's kind one of the crazier ones. Yeah. She's kind of unhinged. In a way that you would normally see a male character yippy-kaying around a little bit. Right. If anyone has roid rage on that crew, it's maybe her. It's best. Yeah.

Which I guess she could have roid rage. Yeah. Women can do steroids too. That's right. Women can do it. If we can beat criminals, we can abuse steroids. Wow. You name name it we can do it pharaoh's a little bit chiller fair and uh another woman with short hair yeah she's the pilot and then there's another woman on the team her name is dietrich and she seems to be like a medic yeah technician of some kind she is one of the first

people to die though so we don't see a ton of her on screen but you were mentioning this earlier is that the movie kind of goes out of its way to be pretty inclusive in terms of having women be a part of the marine team yeah which compare this movie to ladies as contract killers too right yeah compare this movie to the rock the rock exactly where it's kind of similar in that like there's a like someone who has a certain specialty that gets called in to advise on this rescue mission in aliens it's ripley in the rock it's sean connery his wife his wife His wife. His wife. That's one of my favorite shots in a movie of all time. But in The Rock, there are hardly any women seen on screen at all. In this movie, women have a ton of screen time, which makes sense. And not a feather boa in sight, unlike The Rock.

A woman's only allowed on screen during The Rock if they are wearing a feather boa and proposing. And Gregnant. And Gregnant. And Gregnant. the rock if they are wearing a feather boa and proposing and gregman and gregman anyway so yeah i think it's really cool to see so many women in like military positions in this movie yeah more progressive than our current military and our current like movies about military too like there's i i would say if there is a movie being made about Marines right now, I can't imagine it even having the parody of this movie. Yeah, or it's like a big deal, like a G.I. Jane,

where you're like, oh, can you believe it? Right, we're like, that's the point. Can you believe this? This is such a, what a struggle. What a noble struggle. I mean, no one's gender really gets, aside from that one joke that Bill Paxton says in the beginning, like, gender isn't. Oh, there's one other scene.

It was the part of the movie where I said, where I shouted, locker room talk. Oh, yes. Because there's a scene where they're all at lunch. And this is like right after Ripley gets there. And she's like, oh, I wonder if people respect women in the future. And it's like, nope, they do not. Where is... Oh, I have the quote.

One of the Marines says, oh, we're going on this mission because the juicy colonist daughters need rescuing from their virginity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They say the phrase juicy colonist daughters. Now, that's a fundamentally flawed phrase as well because are they saying that the fathers are juicy or are they saying that that's a misplaced uh qualifier they're like oh the juicy colonists thin daughters like we don't know i i simply don't know jim really cammed himself on that one yeah that is i don't know. Jim really cammed himself on that one. Yeah, that is... I don't know why that line is in the movie.

It feels kind of out of place. And then there... Okay, there is one... Also, later on, they all did suffer at the hands of the many juicy daughters on the planet. That's true. I mean, there were a bunch of juicy daughters. Meaning the aliens?

The flap monsters. I would say that they did in the end it was a wet planet slippery as hell i'll say that please come see my new student film wet planet just clammy planet um okay so aside from a few quick moments gender isn't really addressed in this movie no one's like oh you can't do that because you're a woman or i'm not gonna listen to a woman in a good way yeah right yeah so um i think that's that's very interesting and they well i do feel like the whole meta plot of paul reiser faking presumably now that i'm i'm not sure how it's you're supposed

to read it but i kind of thought the beginning was supposed to be revealed to be like a setup and part of the manipulation like so he got her fired believed her the whole time but was like this is the only way i can get her on the planet maybe yeah i think so maybe okay so given that like it is a little bit like gendered the way that all went down it felt like i don't know how i could see that you just kind of manipulate a woman in that way whereas i assume that you could you wouldn't yeah you wouldn't do that to a man like a corporate right that's probably not and especially because he targets ripley and newt as being the ones that he's going to try to get the

face huggers to impregnate essentially so, so that he can carry the aliens back through. Yeah, we didn't even get to the fact that he's raping for business in this movie. But the one other, I mean, this movie calls less attention to gender, I think, to its strength a lot of the time and shows, again's like a an element of restraint this movie shows that most movies today would not because every male dominated art form right now is dying to tell you how much they respect women simply gushing uh but i will say that this movie like and and if it is true that the uh conservative values like were felt you know represented by this movie. I think it is because we have this very strong, capable female protagonist,

but you do have, and it works in this story, but it is a deliberate choice to have the maternal B-plot added of like, oh, but also she can be maternal and gentle and she longs for motherhood and this is an element of her

that cannot be denied which is not the case and not representative of every woman so you can't just save a child because you don't want to see a kid die like come on you have to want to be a mommy yeah i can see that happening and being justified more if in the first movie it's set up that she has a daughter that she left behind right but they deliberately add that detail into this movie that hadn't previously been established so that means that that did not need to be established and if they do just find a kid yeah she doesn't necessarily need to be extremely maternal about it yeah she can just be like hey i'm gonna help make sure this kid doesn't die. Well, this greasy little girl is your boss, which could have been another option. Greasy little boss.

Yeah, I guess that Jim really intentionally shoehorns that in. And again, I think for this movie, it does work, and it helps build out the backstory and interior life of Ripley in a way that the first movie kind of doesn't. But also the fact that he defaults to like, oh, how is a way I can give this female character some depth? Mommy? Yeah.

That's all I can think of. Right. Like it's effective, but it's also kind of a default. But that's also a trope that is usually given to men. So I think it's at least interesting that the dead daughter trope being used to characterize a character is usually Tom Hardy in Mad Max Fury Road.

My daughter, I miss her. I'm quiet. My movie's bad. No, Mad Max is so good. I liked Mad Max. I'm completely alone in that opinion and that just has to be fine. I've been alone in that opinion, and that just has to be fine. I've been alone in that opinion for years,

and I'm fine. Yeah. You just don't like difficult, spiky places. I don't like steampunk imagery. I don't like... That's what this is, too. I don't like the orange and blue movie aesthetic. Biopunk, I guess.

Yeah, biopunk is another triggering phrase. Any movie where it's like the orange-blue movie posters. Yeah, yeah. That's all movies now. Yeah, I love it. I'm here for it. Here, let me talk about some of my favorite moments that demonstrate Ripley as being a smart person.

As being a smart? A smart. A smart. A good. A big smart. She's the one who figures out that the soldiers can't fire their weapons in a certain place because it'll basically cause a nuclear reaction.

So after the first alien attack, a bunch of people die. Gorman is like, I don't know what to do. And she grabs him, shakes him, and screams, do something! He doesn't do anything. So then she basically takes over and starts giving orders and takes the wheel, drives whatever vehicle they're in, and goes and saves the survivors. There's a point where Bill Paxton is throwing a fit. Screaming.

Screaming. She yells, I'm sick of your bullshit. It's bigger than the Hope Diamond. She says, I'm sick of your bullshit. It's bigger than the Hope Diamond. She says, I'm sick of your bullshit. Because while he is freaking out, she is level-headed and knows what needs to happen. She's like, give me the fucking plans so that we can find the air vents and shit. Do you think that Sigourney Weaver and Bill Paxton were friends? I hope so.

That would be so nice. Oh, I look it up okay sorry yeah and then oh uh ripley screams at burke for being a capitalist also this movie i feel like is anti-colonialism as well for sure because all the colonists die the end also i think this movie is uh pro-choice because sigourney weaver kills the alien flap babies with a flamethrower which okay leads me to one of many climactic sequences in this movie where she does like the last big rescue at the end she goes in and rescues Newt and that whole sequence is all female characters because it's Ripley, Newt, the alien queen and the automated female voice which I don't know if we ever learned her name or not but like basically the like facility even the and the the tone of the automated female voice is kind of, she's got a little toad in that voice at first.

What's that phrase she kept saying? It was something to like get out of the building. She's like, yeah, you only have like 15 minutes left. What are you still doing here? Excuse me. Just a quick update. Sigourney Weaver was sad Bill Paxton died. Oh, okay.

She was like i'm good finally but so in this sequence all the surviving male characters which is only bishop and hicks are treated the way that a lot of female characters are in action movies which is that they are completely sidelined and not given anything to do. Ripley saves herself. She saves Newt. She does not need to be saved by a man. A little earlier, there is a scorpion saying she is saved. Yeah, she is saved, but only because like she tries very hard to save herself. And these things have proven to be nearly impossible to fight off. Yeah, it takes like three or four men to pull the thing off of her. So I didn't hate that,

especially because then she does go on to save herself and have all the agency at the end of the movie. I agree. I was worried because that was the point in the movie where I was like, this could be the climactic scene because this movie could be over soon

because it's pretty much done. But because that's actually 65 scenes before the movie actually ends. So long. Yeah. Well, we need that scene where she says, get away from her, you bitch. Yeah, but let's just go to that scene. Did we need the scorpion scene? Although I did really like when she and Newt were banging on the glass

and they're like, can anyone hear us? I was like, i feel you um i feel like one of the reasons i brought this up it was because when like shitty film guys talk about the bechdel test specifically they're like well technically like the the queen aliens are like a woman that's that's kind of why i thought it'd be funny to bring this to the podcast but then i i forgot that at least in aliens probably an alien there's like enough other stuff i i actually thought this whole podcast was going to be a debate about whether like screeching violently constitutes dialogue what is the queen saying we don't know is she talking about a man she might be like you killed my son you killed my son. You killed my son. She might be like, I think Bill Paxton's doing a great job in this movie.

He's fine. He's fine. Big Love is a good show. He's a capable character actor, but no one calls him a character actor because he's hot. Rest in paradise. Rest in Paxton. Rest in paradise. Rest in Paxton.

Oh, Paxton, my Paxton. There's another quick scene I wanted to talk about where it's when they first find Newt. And Ripley is like cleaning off Newt's face. And she's like, oh, hard to believe there's a little girl under this. Because, again, she is covered in just slime and goop and dirt she's a slippery little girl she's slippery so uh yeah she's like hard to believe there's a little girl under this dot dot dot and a pretty one too which is not a line that ripley needs to say i mean i don't know maybe she's trying to lift her spirits because granted her parents were murdered by aliens and she's the only one left

alive on this planet but I think it's just goes to show that girls and women are often only appreciated for the way they look and only talked about in the context of the way they look whereas little boys are complimented about being smart and being athletic and being all kinds of other things right I think and and that's like one of those interesting little uncanny moments where about being smart and being athletic and being all kinds of other things. Right. And that's like one of those interesting little uncanny moments where you're like, oh, this movie was written by a guy. Yeah. Like it's just one of – yeah.

In a movie that largely does well. Because like how else would a guy imagine you comfort a little girl? Exactly. Exactly. Like how would a mom comfort a young girl? Call her pretty? Yeah. But then there's several scenes later where Ripley's like, she survived without any training or weapons.

Like, she's clearly very competent. There are those few scenes where she kind of condescends to her. And Newt is like, I'm not an idiot. I know that plastic doll heads can't have bad dreams. And she's like, oh, yeah. I mean, I like that moment a lot. Yeah, exactly. It would have been awesome in that training our weapons monologue if she then was like,

and that's why I'm giving this four-year-old girl a plasma rifle. Here you go. She's 11. Whatever. Sorry, yeah. She's 11? She is clearly 11. I think so.

That's crazy. I was going to say seven. I said four because my brain shut off. What? She's clearly 11. I think so. That's crazy. I was going to say 7. I said 4 because my brain shut off. She might not be. Maybe I'm just thinking she's 11 because that's how old Ripley's daughter was whenever. No, she's probably 11. I don't know how old any kid is ever. Anyway, look.

I'm saying is preteen with a plasma rifle. I'm for it. Think about it. I would see it. Yeah. I would see it. I'm mostly for it. Mostly.

Oh, my God. You're making so many of those jokes. We're watching it. I'm mostly for it. Mostly. Oh my god, you're making so many of those jokes. The child actor who played Newt is a teacher now. Oh, cool. Isn't that what happens in the beginning of Alien 3? They're just like title card style. Like, oh, Newt died in a spaceship crash.

Yeah, they do kill her. They do kill her? Yeah. They're like, she had the gall to pursue the most noble profession there's actually a couple things i did want to say about alien three because it feels like the first of the alien movies where gender is largely commented on because it's generally pretty ignored in the first two alien movies uh Ripley crash lands onto a planet where there's like a penal colony full of men with YY chromosomes,

which is not a real thing, I don't think. No, it's not possible. No. But I guess they're implying that these men are so masculine that they have so many Y chromosomes. And the whole time everyone's like, oh no, you're a woman and we're gonna be horny because we're murderers and rapists of women and she's gonna cause trouble real cum-fueled decision

also in alien 3 ripley is given a love interest so there's some interesting things and by interesting i mean things that i don't like about alien 3 do they kind of try to give her and hicks a moment in it seems like it oh yeah i did actually want to talk about where there's that scene where she's trying to learn how to use his like plasma rifle he's like standing behind her and like has his arms kind of around her showing her how to do different stuff and that's played in a lot of movies we're like look at this flirtatious moment we're like a man's trying to teach a woman how to swing a tennis racket yeah it's like all hot and flirtatious it's kind of like what jim cameron does on his dates with uh like how to use the personal submarine oh my god he's like i've actually got some pretty cool submersibles

do you want to drive it you want to try to try? Do you want to hold the wheel? But in this movie, I think it's handled better. And yet, I think there's like a hint of like maybe they're interested in each other. It's very weird and very unnecessary. But in the scene where she's like learning to use that gun, at first I was like, ah, a scene where a man's teaching a woman how to use a thing. But I'm like, ah, she is from the past. So she probably wouldn't know how to use it.

Well, she also asked him how to use it. Yeah. So, yeah. He wasn't telling her something she knew. Right, right. So he was not mansplaining to her. He was just explaining. Sometimes men can explain without mansplaining.

Sometimes. Don't tell them that. Mostly. Don't tell them that. Mostly they can do that. Mostly. Anyway. Does anyone have any final thoughts about aliens alfred molina could have been in this movie um as newt oh he's a chameleon wow he could have played a slippery kid like do it with forced perspective like standing really far away yeah a very expensive process or

he could have played any of the aliens in a little green he could have gone full andy circus sure and played the aliens um or he could have played well he could you know he could play in jonesy the cat he also could have played the queen mother you know he's that versatile one last thing i wanted to talk about was all of the vaginal birth oh yeah that's in these movies yeah we got a straight up upskirt of an egg laying we yes so a lot the queen alien i also forgot that was in there she has what seems to be an external vagina which i think is extremely sex positive if you ask me and very progressive a detachable a detach because she literally rips herself off of it yeah it looks painful i don't need this right now and i feel like one of the scariest

things about like this movie and the first alien movie is like the way the aliens gestate and like it is scary yeah like the queen lays the eggs and then inside those eggs is like face thing and that attaches to your face and impregnates your chest and then that dies and then an infant alien bursts out of your chest and then it takes what seems like only an hour to grow to adulthood and then and then it becomes this terrifying thing so i don't know if like is that like the writers and filmmakers who are largely men yeah uh in these movies is that a way for them to be like look how gross and scary childbirth is and how little we understand well i think movie monsters in general right are just like manifestations of anxieties right and men are uh scared of vaginas a lot because they don't understand it some movie monsters represent communism other movie monsters represent women

because it's something that the author is uh afraid of and doesn't understand for for this movie it works because when we see like male protagonists slaying the vagina and conquering the vagina monster that is net negative having a female protagonist confront and defeat the vagina monster i don't know what that is it's more interesting i don't know i mean i think it's it's definitely a trope being recycled here but it didn't bother me in this movie yeah i don't think any real commentary is being made i don't think so either but i don't think it's setting things back either yeah yeah yeah i would agree with that it's not regressive but it's also like it's all just just like well here's you haven't seen this i think you haven't seen a giant queen bee alien rip her own external vagina off of her to fight a woman fight a woman yet right until 1986 right isn't that the whole thing with hr geiger

it's like all those drawings are like you know everything is infused with like sex organs from everything and it's like the idea is like the horror of that so quoting a paraphrasing what i would imagine they would say is like the horror of that confusion right is what some swedish dude is that who hr geiger is i think something like some white dude thinks is the scariest thing in the world yeah um let's talk about whether or not this movie passes the bechdel test yes it does a few times there is a moment where ripley and vasquez are talking and she's talking about what happened in the first alien movie and then vasquez is like that's how she says it too

it's like so in the first movie yeah uh here's what happens um Vasquez is like look man I only need to know one thing where they are but she does say look man so interesting and they they is dudes ambiguous well do we know do we know the sex of the aliens I guess not I Well, I think a caveat for the Bechdel test is that are they talking about human men? If it's an animal or a xenomorph or whatever, it doesn't matter. I don't think. That's fair. Yeah. So I would say that passes.

And then Ripley and Newt talk a lot. Sometimes they mention Newt's little brother or like her dad, but several of those scenes do pass the Bechdel test. The scene where Newt says, we should go back inside because they mostly come out at night. Mostly. That passes the Bechdel test. Thank you so much. And then there's the scene at the end where Ripley says, get away from her, you bitch! And then the alien goes, khh! I think all the scenes

between Sigourney Weaver and the gigantic vagina pass whether there's dialogue being spoken or not. Yeah. It's a massive asterisk scene. Yeah, so the movie

passes the Bechdel test. Hurrah! Yay! Let's rave. Gotta go, right? Oh, shit. Yes. I very much have to go, guys. Oh. I'm so sorry. Hurrah! Yay! Let's rate. I gotta go, right? Oh, shit. Yes, I very much have to go, guys.

Oh. I'm so sorry. This was so fun. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thanks for, I didn't want you to be too late. Oh, wait, no, thank you.

I wasn't even looking. It was good to see you. Bye! Okay, so let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. Zero to five nipples based on its portrayal

of women. I would give it, I'm gonna give it a four. I'm gonna take nipples based on his portrayal of women um i would give it i'm gonna give it a four i'm gonna take nipples off for the character of vasquez being a latina character but not being played by a latina actress talking one for brown face yeah yep there's a few other you know small gripes where yeah like ripley does have to do the thing where she has to prove herself to a man she's like hey look i can drive a forklift that you didn't think I could do and they're like oh hee hee wow wow but I would say by and large apart from a few like lines of dialogue here and there that are

just like oh that could have been cut and the movie would be better this movie does I would even go so far as to say an excellent job depicting women in an action blockbuster, especially considering the era that it came out in the mid 80s. Ripley is in the movie because they need her. She's the only one who can provide the information that they need to get their mission accomplished. Right. Without her, the movie cannot take place. Right. Also, yeah, she's level headed she's smart she's a good strong leader and the other female characters the fact that they're in the movie at all is uh shouldn't be surprising but it is considering congratulate

the movie for that right but i do like that it attempted to be more inclusive than most action movies especially of this era. And that those female characters are generally pretty well developed and interesting. Yeah, so I'm going to give it four nipples and all four of my nipples go to the queen alien. Cool. I'll give it four as well. Obviously, we don't need to tell our audience that actors of any gender in brownface is absolutely unacceptable and it just it sucks because that casting choice to some extent like lessens the impact of what is a very well-written character yeah that pisses me off uh but for all the reasons you said the fact

that this movie cannot the plot can't move forward without its female characters, which even in action movies where there are capable women present, the presence of those women isn't necessarily critical to the core action of the movie taking place. That's not the case for this. And that is amazing. And also shouldn't be amazing, obviously. Right. Yeah, I think that Jim cammed this one pretty, pretty damn well.

Yes. I think it was a solid gym cam i still think it's so fucking boring i'm sorry uh it was very long and vaginal imagery will get me in the seat but the fact that it's a it's a real blue and orange and that's what i'm calling every movie i don't like from now on yeah it it was never going to be for me, but the way it treats its female characters is, by and large, pretty exceptional. So four nippies. I'm going to toss two to Slippery Little Newt, and then I'll give the other two to Paxton.

Cool. Sorry, Sigourney. No nips from me. Yeah, wow, that was a surprising turn of events just now. Listen, rest in Paxton. Andrew had to leave before we could get his social media. I'll plug it. Yeah. You can find

Andrew T. online at Andrew T. I believe across all platforms. It is just his name. The last name is spelled T-I like the rapper. And you can also listen to his wonderful podcast, Yo, Is This Racist? Highly recommend.

Yes, indeed. So thank you, Andrew T., for being here. Hey, thanks. Yay! Whoa! Thank you. I'm Andrew T. Yeah, yeah.

Thanks for having me. And you can follow us on social media as well, at Bechtelcast on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. You can subscribe to our Matreon. You will get two bonus episodes every single month. And we appreciate all of our Matrons so much. Shout out to our Matrons. I think in conclusion, don't see Deadpool 2. Mostly.

Mostly. Okay, bye. Mostly. Mostly. Okay, bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

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