The Bechdel Cast - Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret with Kate Helen Downey

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

You must! You must! You must listen to Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Kate Helen Downey chat about Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret! Check out Kate's podcast, Cramped, wherever you get your podcasts, and follow Kate on Instagram at @katehelendowney and on TikTok at @kateiscrampedSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Israel Gutierrez and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the story of how the Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade. The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions. Today, the Warriors dynasty remains alive in large part because of a scrawny 6'2 hooper who everyone seems to love. For what Steph has done for the game, he's certainly on that Mount Rushmore. Come revisit this magical warrior's ride. Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You Feeling This Too is a horror anthology podcast.

It brings different creators to tell 10 vile, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no vile, grotesque, horrific stories on what scares them the most. You're feeling this too. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2020, a group of young women found themselves in an AI-fuelled nightmare. This is Levertown, a new podcast from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope, about the rise of deepfake pornography and the battle to stop it. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glott. And this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. Last year, a lot of the problems of the drug war. This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports This is kind of star-studded a little bit man We met them at their homes met them at the recording studios

Stories matter and it brings a face to it makes it real it really does it makes it real Listen to new episodes of the war on drugs podcast season 2 on the I heart radio app Apple Podcasts are wherever you get your podcast On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands? Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. We must, we must, we must record the Bechdel cost.

Cost, the Bechdel cost? Cost. Oh, so you just get, you become British at the end. The Bechdel cost. The Bechdel cost. Yes, and if you say that 35 times a day with your best friends, your podcast will get bigger. Will get so freaking huge. It will get so freaking huge.

It'll get so busty. So many listeners. I like to think spiritually our podcast has big old titties. Oh, yeah. Yeah, even though I haven't been blessed, I like to think my podcasts have huge. Big titty energy. Yes.

Well, now that we've started by objectifying our own podcast, which if you're a listener, you can agree, just huge, just huge, huge naturals on this podcast. My name is Jamie Loftus, parentheses small naturals. My name is Jamie Loftus, parentheses small naturals. My name is Caitlin Durante, parentheses medium naturals. I mean, you've got great boobs, Caitlin. Thank you. I just posted a picture.

I know. I know. I liked them because I was like, you know, it's just, some are blessed. Anyway. So this is the Bechtelcast, the podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion. But Caitlin, what the hell is that?

Oh my gosh, it is a media metric created by queer cartoonist, Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test. There are many versions of it. The one that we use is do two characters of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other? And is there conversation about something other than a man? And a little kind of like caveat that we have is that it's a narratively meaningful substantial conversation and not just throw away dialogue.

And that actually, there are some episodes where it feels like the Bechdel test is a very tangential part of the show. This episode, I think, is actually a great time to talk about it because of Alice and Bechdel, and Judy Blume is older than Alice and Bechdel, but they both have a huge hand in forwarding feminist discourse of the 20th century.

So I feel like they're in conversation with each other. And today we are covering the 2023 movie, Are You There God? Question mark, it's me, Margaret, period. And emphasis on the period because that's gonna come up a lot. And we have an amazing guest, so let's get her in here. We absolutely do.

She's a podcast producer. She's host of the podcast Cramped, as well as co-founder of Kaviyat in New York City. Ever heard of it? It's a great comedy venue. It's Kate Hellandowney, welcome. Welcome. Hello, thank you for having me.

Oh my gosh, thanks for being here. And thank you for bringing us this movie. So with your permission, Caitlin, I would love to know. I mean, normally this is where we talk about our history with this movie. But I would also love to know everyone's history with Miss Judy Bloom and her oeuvre. Indeed.

Kate, let's start with you. And also tell us about Cramped and how all of this ties together. It's all connected. It's inception style. Yeah. So I have had horrible, horrible period pain since I was 14, since basically the first time I got my period.

I throw up. I pass out. Not every time I get my period, but sometimes. And I have never in 22 years gotten a diagnosis from a doctor or like useful treatment or anything really helpful. I have been told everything from your period pain will get better when you have your first baby,

which is what I was told when I was 14, all the way to just, yeah, your period, you're in a lot of pain. It's so weird. Like we don't know what could be causing it. Have you tried ibuprofen? Yeah. And I changed insurances a lot in my twenties.

So I saw a lot of different gynecologists and asked them all this question and never got a satisfactory answer. And then the more people that I would talk to about, the more I opened up about my period pain, the more comfortable I got talking about it, the more people I found who also got very similar symptoms during their periods.

And the more I kept going, maybe naively, but going like, if this many people have this much pain, how are we all being told that we're like medical freaks? You know, like it just doesn't add up. And so I had this idea years ago to do a podcast about just searching for answers for myself, just trying to finally get some like real information that I could then share with all the other people out there who feel totally dismissed and like neglected by medicine and are experiencing this kind of pain. And so I ended up getting a grant to do 10 episodes and the last one comes out as we're

recording this, the last one is coming out next week. So we did it. Congratulations. That's amazing. I'm so excited to listen to it. And I mean, I don't know, I don't want you to like, force spoilers, but is there anything that like, really stuck out in terms of your takeaways from having produced the show?

Yeah, well, I mean, I got into it like, with very simple questions where I was like, each episode I'm just gonna like, ask this question that like, seems like a dumb question, but I don't know the answer. And so we're gonna like, talk to whatever experts we need, and I'm gonna do the research, and like, we're gonna just try to answer this question that I've never been able to

get answered. And so like the first one is just like literally what's happening inside my body. Like why am I in pain? What is causing it? And it's like, yeah, that's a really complicated question to answer. And sometimes the questions are complicated and difficult to answer because bodies are complicated and just like it could be a simple question and it's not a simple answer and sometimes the questions are hard to answer because we have not studied it. We just

haven't like no one else has been curious about this or been funded to do this and so very quickly I got into what you guys talk about a lot, which is the systemic sexism, racism, and misogyny that is present underneath all of the structures, underlies all of our structures, but especially the medical structures. And so we really get detailed and specific about like, you know, are the doctors sexist? Maybe sometimes, but it's actually,

that's not the biggest problem. Like the biggest problem is like, we don't study it. Like, why don't we study it? Because we don't think it's important. We don't think it's important that millions and millions of people with uteruses are in pain. We just don't think that's really important as a culture and as a society.

Yeah, and then so when we were talking about, you know, having you come on the podcast and what movie to examine, you were interested in talking about a movie that like directly and explicitly addresses the fact that people have periods and there were so few movies. Yes, it's true. And the movie we're talking about today is one of the few. And it's recent.

And like, it's, I'm so excited to get into like the history of like how long it took this movie to be made because it took literally 50 years. Like if it was made after it was published, it wouldn't be a period piece from, well it is a period piece and a period piece. Period piece. Okay, okay.

Yes, exactly. Wow. From half a century ago though. Like it is just, I'm just like glad Judy Blume got to see it made, cause. Yeah. I know. Jeez Louise.

It's wild. Yeah, there are, I actually just, I did a whole episode on why there aren't more period mentions in any kind of media. Like we think of film and TV, but also like podcasts. Like there's actually not for a medium that like talks about personal experience constantly, like there's not much out there about periods. And then even social media, you search for like period cramps on TikTok and you get very little. And it's like why there are different reasons that

there are different obstacles in each of these forms of media, but like why if it i'll throw some stats out there to like Show why it's so crazy 90 of menstruating people experience period pain Some kind of period pain which the medical term for that is dysmenorrhea And 30 of menstruating people experience severe period pain, meaning pain that is bad enough that you cannot go about your daily routine,

like what you would normally be doing. And so 30% of menstruating people. That is- So many millions of people. That's like in the world, that's like back of the napkin math that I did by myself, so it's not, you know, don't quote me on it, but like- This isn't a math that I did by myself. So it's not, you know, don't, don't quote me on it. But like-

This isn't a math show, it's fine. Yeah. But 30% of menstruating people worldwide is about 522 million people. So that's like over half a billion people. Absurd. In severe pain, multiple times a year. Like not just once in a while, but a lot.

Frequently. Yeah. And yet we don't, it is not taken seriously. We don't talk about it. Yeah, yeah. No, and it still feels like, I mean, and this extends to so many areas of medical study, but because it's still so dominated by men,

there are so many areas of medicine, I mean, very often with, I mean, you get extended to trans people, you get extended to, I mean, people with extended to trans people, you get extended to, I mean, people with wombs, definitely. It's just like, the studies won't exist unless you can monetize them in a way that like satisfies that machine.

This is sort of a tangent, but I recently talked to someone who had their doctorate in smell studies, like olfactory studies. She was really cool and she was talking about how she was publicly mocked on the internet for having this PhD because no one cares about funding. A sense that the vast majority of people deal with every single day,

that there are all these misunderstandings about literally affects everyone But no one cares unless the only way you can get funding is if it's gonna sell perfume or candles Yeah, and I feel like with with men's trading people. It's like well, can it sell a product? and if not, we don't care and suffering is an assumed part of having uterus you're like, oh, but it goes so much deeper than that because like, okay, there's 522 people worldwide in severe pain, like multiple times a year, up to 12 times a year. And like, my take is I would pay any amount of money

for a medication that would help me not be in pain, that would help me not be in pain, that would actually work. And so would probably most of those 522 million people. And yet why is the pharmaceutical that there's like no, there's no markets that are that big in the pharmaceutical industry anymore. Like, this is like cure the common cold kind of like opportunity. And they're just like, Oh, no, thank you. Like, my doll exists. Yucky. Yeah.

Yeah. But it's it isn't really about that. Like, yes, there's the profit motive, but there's also just like, do we give a shit about that? Are there women in these pharmaceutical companies like making the decisions about where the research funding is going to go? Is there knowledge that this many people are in this much pain and desperate for a solution? I don't know. Probably not.

I'm not a pharmaceutical person. Right. Well, another little kind of tangent is that we recently on an episode talked about how I was about to have a hysterectomy. I since had that hysterectomy and so far it's only been about two months, but I haven't had period pain since, so it seems to be doing the trick. But I paid out of pocket nearly $6,000 for the surgery. The hospital billed my insurance. guess how much money for the hysterectomy? $137,000.

Oh my God. Yeah, so I was like, what the fuck, I have to pay $6,000? I was like, well, I guess I don't have to pay $137,000. But yeah, it's obscene and it's the only thing that I found to be like a satisfactory resolution to my horrible period pain. Cause I was on birth control for many, many years

and it did do a lot to reduce or eliminate my pain but I had side effects from the birth control. So I was like, I don't want that. So, you know, I already talked at length don't want that. So, you know, I already talked at length about it on that other episode, but yeah, it is, it's just such a fucking nightmare for so many people. I know you talked on that other episode, because I just listened to it about this and about like suspected endometriosis. And so I, I over the last, have paid over $10,000 out of pocket just to get a diagnosis,

not even an official diagnosis, but like a diagnosis of suspected endometriosis. After 22 years of having exactly the symptoms of endometriosis and asking dozens of doctors about it, I had to pay out of pocket so much money to see a specialist because endometriosis specialists don't take insurance generally because insurance doesn't reimburse properly for that treatment. I wonder why that might be. It's almost like they don't give a shit. But my question, so like, and then the other part of the $10,000 was on like pelvic floor

physical therapy and all the other things that are, you know, like a nutritionist that is supposed to help you be able to like eat more anti-inflammatory and like all these things that your insurance doesn't cover. Who knows if they help or not, you know, it's not linear, but like my question is, did they end up finding endometriosis when they did your hysterectomy or adenomyosis? Yes, both. Okay, that explains it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I also didn't have an official diagnosis of endometriosis because they have to do a whole other surgery to even officially diagnose it. But they just took my word for it. They're like, oh, you've had this horrible pain for your entire like adolescent and adult life and you don't want to have children. Great. We believe you about both things. Here's your surgery. That'll be a hundred bazillion dollars. Yeah. But that was the best

case scenario after years of fighting for it. Right. Exactly. Um, but yeah, they discovered not as much endometriosis as I thought I might have, but they did find some lesions and then they also did, they like, you know, I don't know, cut my uterus open. Right, right. They did an autopsy on your uterus. Yeah. Yeah, basically. Also, okay, this might just be the most like tangenty episode ever. But so Jamie, you were kind enough to pick me up from the hospital after my surgery, and I was like so loopy and in so much pain. They like definitely did not keep me

at the hospital long enough. No, they didn't. They literally like catapulted you into our backseat, and then I was like, ah, that's what we did. And I was like crying in the backseat because I was in so much pain. They didn't give me adequate painkillers. Like it was a nightmare.

But I knew that you weren't doing well because you asked me to turn down the Moulin Rouge soundtrack. That was, which has never happened before. I only have the vaguest memory of that. I do have a clearer memory of you phrasing an aspect of my surgery as I gave birth to my own uterus. Because so they removed my cervix, they pulled my uterus out through my vagina.

And so I gave birth to my own uterus. And then they sewed the top of my vagina shut, just awesome stuff happening all around. But anyway, that all hurt a lot until I was crying. But that's like the easiest recovery. That's what I've heard is that like, because they don't have to cut you open, so you're like not healing from all of that. I mean, I did have some like laparoscopically done tiny little incisions on my abdomen. They're already like healed.

Everything's good there. But yeah, anyway, so they did an autopsy on the uterus that I gave birth to and it was discovered that I have, what's it called, adenomyosis? Adenomyosis is where, it's where, well, you say it, you're the one that just had your uterus cut open.

We both know. But it's basically where your uterine lining that should be inside the empty part of your uterus that it grows and then it sheds during menstruation, that uterine lining grows within the walls, like it's kind of embedded within the walls of you. It's in the muscle. Yeah. Yeah.

And I suspect that's what was probably causing me so much pain all those years. Yes. Because again, they found endometriosis, but it wasn't super severe, but yeah, the adenomyosis, it's a bitch, I'll tell you what. I've had adenomyosis described to me as Endo's nasty sister.

Oh, okay. But also described to me as fudge ripple ice cream where the fudge is the, because they're trying to describe like how the endometrial tissue is like inside the muscle and they're like, it looks like fudge ripple ice cream, like, but the fudge is the endo, because it bleeds inside and so it leaves these like stripes

and like swollen parts of the muscle and it's like yeah that sounds like it fucking hurts like I will never look at fudgripple the same way again I know that doctor did ruin that for me yes oh boy um okay so back to judy bloom slash are you there this is so interesting i'm like okay fine i guess we'll talk about it's a good movie. Oh, but also the one thing, it is a good thing to talk about because the WHO estimates that one in 10 people

with uteruses has endometriosis. Huge number of people. Yes, huge number of people. And there is an average delay in diagnosis of seven to 10 years between the onset of symptoms and actually getting a diagnosis when it is diagnosed at all. So this is extremely important to talk about because if someone has severe period pain and has had it most of their life,

they probably have endometriosis, but it's probably gonna take them years to get it diagnosed and treated because also the treatment that we have for it is surgery, which is expensive and often not covered or reimbursed by surgery. And also that surgery, guess what it's really good at? And guess what it's really not good at? Tell us. Really good at restoring fertility, really bad at taking away pain. Oh, I wonder why.

Yeah. Again. The priority is there. Oh, are people with uteruses only valued for their ability to reproduce and bear children? Exactly. And do we not give a ability to reproduce and bear children? Exactly. Do we not give a shit about their pain at all? Hmm. Well, and also, I mean, enough or nothing, even if you do want kids, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be in constant pain. It's not even, it just drives me. And speaking

to your point, Kate, two of my closest friends, and Caitlin, you're one of them, has been suffering tremendously with endo for years. And, Caitlin, it took you years to be able to get the hysterectomy done. And then my other friend, she was only able to find out that she had endometriosis because she had to have a different procedure done. And they're like, oh, also we found this. And she was like, well, at least something like I know,

but thanks for the confirmation. And that's the only way that she's gotten any treatment cleared. I also feel like there's so little validation given. Like one thing I learned doing the podcast, talking to a pain scientist, like a pain specialist who is a psychologist who specializes in how the brain processes and feels pain, did this incredible study where there were these young women who

all experienced period pain, severe period pain. She brought them together in a group and did basically group therapy where they all shared about their experiences. They gave them some education and some coping strategies, but it was all basically just them talking to each other. And they found that their pain level, when they self-reported their pain levels after these sessions, for up to a year afterwards,

they reported lower pain. So literally, and it makes sense if you think about, our brains, if we feel like we are alone in our pain, like there is no one there to support us, like no one believes us, like we're in pain and we don't know why and that's scary, our brains are gonna escalate those pain signals. Our brains don't like that experience.

They're gonna be like, something's really wrong. You're feeling all these negative emotions as well. That hurts more. And so like the fact that we are not taken seriously at the doctor when we are talking about our period pain, the fact that we're not given explanations, that it doesn't seem important to say like, hey, here's why you're in pain, here's what is hurting, and here are some things you can do, those all actually make our pain worse. And the taboo against talking about our periods,

the way we are trained to not talk even to each other about our periods, actually makes us be in more pain. Woo hoo! And a big part of all of this is the lack of media representation and the lack of just normalization of menstruating and the side effects that come along with it, including pain. Because again, like we were like, which movies could we do? Well, there's Carrie and we've already done it, but it's

like, we've done it. And also what can we take away? That was like horrible, scary trauma associated with periods. There's a couple movies that kind of half explicitly acknowledge periods, but also they're sort of metaphorical as far as turning red and ginger snaps, where it's like puberty turns you into an animal. And also we've already covered those too. And we have already covered those. There's only so many.

Like that's wild. And I feel like I like, I feel like those metaphoric things are like, they're so great and I love them and I'm glad that they're out there. But I'm also like, I want to talk literally. I want to speak very specifically about this. I really love, I mean, this is like, I guess starting to get into the movie, but I really love, I don't even remember ever really being like this.

I mean, I remember being like, when, well, we'll talk about it, but like, I do like that these young girls are very charmingly obsessed with their periods, and they're like, where is it? Like, they're- Could not relate. I love the intensity.

The intensity of a 12 year old is just unmatched. Unmatched. This captured it so well, that intensity and both being terrified of it and being like, but I want a dab in right now. But I need it. And then, yeah, and then whoever in your life is helping you through that,

or you're like your mom being like, no rush. Yeah. It's gonna suck so bad forever. But anyways, anyways, should we get into our history with the movie? Yeah. Yeah, so Kate, tell us about your, yeah, relationship with the source material,

if any, the movie, et cetera. Yeah, so I definitely had Judy, I know that I like read Judy Blume books. I was a big reader, like when I was a kid, I lived on top of a mountain in Maine. No, it was for sad reasons. Not that, it was cause we didn't have a cable and I was only allowed one hour of TV,

or no, I was allowed half an hour of TV a day. And mostly we just got PBS and so it was like. Caitlin you're similar. Similar yeah. Yeah so we got two channels we got three channels one of them came in clearly and it was PBS and so it was just like meh and so I read a lot but I was more of like a red wall Narnia kid like more on the fantasy side And so these like the Judy Blume books, I read them because I read everything, but I was just kind of like, okay, like there's not a lot of, um, talking mice in this. So I'm not really into it. Um,

but I do think that was partly because my parents are hippies and we're very like upfront with me and like straight shooters when it came to like, oh, here's what's gonna happen when you get your period. Oh, here's why this happens. My parents would walk around naked after showers, air drying, and it was just sort of like, that was not something that I was curious about in that way where I was just, I think for people who didn't have that kind of openness in their family,

I think Judy Blume books were like way more important. And then the movie, I'd never seen it before, but I knew that it had come out. And when I was researching for Cramped, I didn't know this, but Are You There, God, It's Me, Margaret is one of the most banned books. Just because it talks openly about periods and the people getting their periods

are not like traumatized. They're, they're like, it's like positive. Yeah. Like to this day, I mean, I think we're going to see another round of this book being banned or an escalation on bands that already exist. It's just like ridiculous. Well, they're trying to pass bills in Florida that are like, you can't say the word period in school. Like, shit like that. But what if you're, what if you need to write a sentence? We don't know.

We don't know. Just sentence. Yeah. Jamie, how about you? What's your situation? I, a very specific relationship with Judy Bloom books. I was also a huge reader as a kid. I'm bragging, I'm a big reader to this day.

I love reading books. And I reread, anti-intellectual. I reread because it's a quick read when you're an adult woman. But I reread Are You There, God, It's Me, Margaret, yesterday, because I remember, I don't like specific, I know that I read it. I think I read like every Judy Blume book that was available, including her book for adults summer sisters.

And we just talked about this on another episode. Yeah, because we've both read it. And I was like, oh, this isn't for me. But it was juicy. So I kept going. And then also, there's another Judy Blume adult book that I learned about yesterday that I was like, well, this isn't for me, but it was juicy. So I kept going. And then also there's another Judy Blume adult book that I learned about yesterday that I was like, why have it, maybe it was banned at my library,

but she wrote another, her first, anyway, I reread the book and I watched a documentary that came out a couple of years ago about Judy Blume. So I'm just like riding high on Judy Fumes. But her first, wow, Judy Fumes, but her first, wow, Judy Flumes? Judy Fumes? I've just mainlined Judy all yesterday to the point where I was like, oh yeah,

I have to watch the movie we're talking about. But yeah, so her first novel for adults was called Wifey, and it was about, she wrote it suspiciously right before she left her husband, and it was about cheating on your husband. And everyone was so scandalized and they're like, Judy Blume's career is over and then guess what, it wasn't.

It was a super best seller and everyone's like, more horny adult Judy Blume. But my Judy Blume book, and I literally had, I think at one point, and I hated her for a while, even though I had read so many of her books. I liked her books for kids, the fudge books are super fun. Yes, I loved those. Yes.

She writes for literally every age level so well. It's like amazing, but I loved the fudge books, and then I read, are you there? God, it's me, Margaret. And then when I was Margaret's age, like 11, 12, I got diagnosed, I don't even know, with scoliosis. And then I received five trillion copies of the book, Deenie, and it made me wanna fucking rip my head.

For a while, I was a Judy Blume fan, and then I was a Judy Blume hater, because I'm like, if another aunt gives me a copy of fucking Deenie, I'm gonna suffocate myself with my own back brace. Like I just really hated, and I mean I read it the first time it was, but then I still like in the, I kept them all out of spite. I have so many different editions. Like my aunt was like, I have the first edition. And then they're like, here's the one with the

new cover. And I'm like, well, someone fucking talked to me about the fact that it sucks to wear a back brace, but they're like, nope, here's Deanie. But that is the beauty and the function of Judy Blume, I think for a lot of young people of all genders is like, and I remember another Judy Blume book that really stuck with me was blubber, which was about, um, I mean, not, I mean, you know, you could hope for a different title, but it was about a girl being bullied for her weight in the 70s, but it's told from the perspective of someone who's friends with the bullies,

but is afraid to stand up to them. And I remember being really impacted by that because you're like, oh my God, the protagonist of this book is kind of evil, but also it could so easily be me to be afraid to stand up to people. Like I just, her books are amazing. Deanie can suck it. Cause also the thing with Deanie-

I didn't even know that was a book. Yeah, I've never heard of it. Well, cause you didn't have scoliosis, Caitlin. Every person with scoliosis knows who fucking Deanie is and the problem with Deanie and it's not, you know, I'm sure that I hope that there's other books about young girls with scoliosis now because it, you know, disproportionately affects sure that I hope that there's other books about young girls with scoliosis now because it disproportionately affects cis girls

because they grow fast, whatever. But it just, I hated that bitch so much because the thing with Deanie was, her character was like, she was so beautiful and she was gonna be a model, but then she got a back brace and she had to like develop a personality. And my take on Deanie at the time was time was like oh congratulations on being so fucking hot

Deenie because some of us didn't start that far ahead some of us look weird and then they got a back brace anyways I had a real bone to pick with Deenie for many years I should go back and reread it but whatever I did I have something else to yell about it with regards to Deanie? Oh, oh, yes that the thing that actually stuck with me with Deanie that turns out and I want to talk about more about Judy Blume lore because I learned all about I mean the entire Reagan administration was like we've got to kill Judy Blume We're gonna kill her and meanwhile, she's like the sweetest person in the whole world The documentary was meh,

but something that I thought was really beautiful about it was that kids would write to her that felt like they couldn't talk to their own parents or the adults in their lives. And she would respond. And like she became a pen pal for some of her young readers for like, I'm gonna cry, for like 20 years. And she like went to, there was this girl, Lori, Lori Kim,

and she like had all of these like, you know, very normal problems growing up, but then she had a bad relationship with her parents and she wrote Judy Blume when she was gonna graduate from college and she was like, will you come instead? And Judy Blume went and it was like, oh. Like she's just so great. Anyways, the scene about Deanie

that was the reason the book was banned, Hot Girls with Scoliosis is, that's okay. We're not gonna ban that from the library. But there's a scene in Deanie I remember so specifically where Deanie masturbates and she figures out what masturbation is. It's literally a page, but the book was banned for the entire Reagan administration

because they're like, Deanie cannot be masturbating. Anyways, big Judy Blum head, fuck Deanie, but I'm glad that she, Deanie literally taught me how to masturbate. How embarrassing is that? What a perfect, your aunts are giving you this like scoliosis book and you're like, fuck you, I'm gonna learn to masturbate from it.

Taught me how to show off. It was, I'm trying to remember how I wanna, I should reread Dini, but it just fills me with like 12 year old rage. But it like described masturbation in a way that like actually made sense to me. It wasn't like, I am Deanie and I am going to masturbate. It was like, I have this feeling and then I do this.

I was like, I do that. And you're like, wait, there's a name for it. So Judy Blim is awesome. And if your family is afraid to talk to you about your own body, I feel like she to this day is a very useful source. Caitlin, what's your history with this book and with Judy Blume?

I was also a big reader as a youth. Look at us, look at us. Shocking that three reader girls became podcasters. Wow. This is shocking no one. But yeah, I loved Judy Bloom books. I also really enjoyed the fudge books. And then I'm guessing my mom put,

"'Are You There God Is Me, Margaret' in my hands. And she's like, read this because- Because it was like books of our mom's generation. Right, right, right. And I read it and obviously this was like books of our mom's generation. Right, right, right. And I read it and obviously this was like 30 years ago so I barely remember it. But the one thing I do remember is not being able to relate at all to Margaret being excited about the prospect

of having her period. Interesting, okay. Because I think I read this, yeah, I definitely read this before I got my period and I was dreading it. I knew what a period was, it did not seem pleasant, I was not interested in getting it. And you were right.

I think I just instinctively knew how bad my periods were going to be. I don't know, but I had my period for like six months before I admitted to anyone, like my friends at least, that I had it. I was like in denial. I was like, no, that's just blood that comes out of my body every month. It's not my period. I could not handle the fact that I had got my period. I did not want it at all. And now I don't have it anymore. Yay. But anyway, but otherwise, I think I really enjoyed the book and I imagine that I related to Margaret's, you know, journey around figuring out her religious identity or perhaps lack thereof, that kind of like spiritual journey because I was raised without religion

as well. And I got like bullied for it in my like conservative small town and So I imagine that was something that I connected with but um yeah, Judy Blume rocks we talked about this recently Jamie, but we I read forever and that book taught me about sex and then summer sisters taught me even more about sex I never read Forever, but when they were recapping it, and the documentary is on Prime, unfortunately, but it's there. And yeah, I was like, oh, Forever's dirty.

And there were like these, like when Judy Blume was doing signings, and it's like all these young people who were like, I wanna know how sex works. She would have like little conversations with them at the front where she's like, how does your family feel about you buying this book? And they would either be like, they have no idea

or like they feel okay, because they don't want to tell me what sex is. And she's like, okay, bye. Like it's just, she just seems like the coolest person in the world. She seems like she genuinely cares that like young girls know something about something, you know?

Right. And like never wavered on that. And I just think that that's so cool. Yeah, I like that she doesn't seem like she has an agenda. She's not trying to like push any specific like way of thinking about things, other than just like, here's information and here's how this girl feels about it

and here's how this girl feels about it and that's okay. Which has a very normalizing effect and that's what we need from media. The other thing, so this movie, I didn't see it right when it came out, but actually funny story, I had plans to see it right when it came out, but I actually funny story. I had plans to see it with two of my friends. Let's put a pin in that. I had to bail at the last minute because I had such bad

period cramps. The three of us went to Denny's together and I started feeling really, really horrible. And I like, I went to the bathroom, did my business there, but I was like, guys, I have to bail on the movie, I'm so sorry. So they took me home and I missed the movie. But the reason me and these two friends were gonna go is that, okay, you know when you're in a little group chat and the group chat has a funny little name,

my group chat with these two friends is called The Margretts. Named after the book, because this was before the movie came out. But we, the reason we're called The Margretts is because we, so it's my friend Sammy, friend of the show, and my friend Nikki. And I was at Sammy's house and we were like text pestering Nikki because she was supposed to arrive at Sammy's as well. She was late. And so we were just like text bombing her being like, Nikki, where are you?

Are you here yet? Where are you? Are you there, Nikki? It's us, Margaret. And then it just stuck. And then we like renamed the group chat, The Margretts. And that has been our name of our friendship for the past like eight years or something.

That's so cool. I did not know. Yeah, it was like new lore just dropped. I didn't know. I know that group text, but I didn't know the lore. Wow. Yeah, this is the lore. So so this this Margaret and the Margret's has a special place in my heart. But anyway, so yeah, I guess let's take a quick break and then we'll get We've been recording for 40 minutes, so we, I guess let's take a quick break and then we'll get we've been recording for 40 minutes So we'll be right back. We haven't even started the recap

But here we are normalizing periods. So we're doing good work. But yeah, let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back Hey kids, it's me Kevin Smith and it's me, Kevin Smith. And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith. That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless, d***less version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless D***less Me. I'm the old one. I'm the young one.

And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. It could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.

It's a work in progress. Listen to Beardless, listen to me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Israel Gutierrez and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty. The story of how the Golden State Warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade.

The Golden State Warriors once again are NBA champions. From the building of the core that included Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the sport. I just felt like the biggest thing was to earn the trust of the players and let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down. Today, the Warriors dynasty remains alive, in large part because of a scrawny 6'2 hooper who everyone seems to love.

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That's the fun part about being an artist, that you need to have the patience for finding your head. I'm La Gata, the culture's favorite reggaeton historian and musicologist. On an episode of my show, the Reggaeton con la Gata podcast, I sit down with Goldie, a boricua reggaetonera who's demanding her place in the male-dominated music industry. That's the game, like who stays and who leaves, you know? Listen to Reggaeton con la Gata on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Reggaeton con la Gata and start America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Reggaeton Cuella Gata and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today. And we're back. I was I now that we're talking about periods,

I know we have to recap the movie, but I was thinking, did I ever I'm sure I've mentioned it on the show at some point in the last like almost 10 years, but um, I got I'm sure I've mentioned it on the show at some point in the last like almost 10 years But um, I got my period when I was in eighth grade. I think I was kind of ambivalent towards it. Like I Didn't feel one way or another. I was just wearing a back brace and trying to be invisible and that was my job So no one cared if I was bleeding I was invisible but I because I was like kind of a little bit behind most of my friends I But because I was like kind of a little bit behind most of my friends, I kind of decided that I was never going to get my period and that I was going to be like Mary Magdalene. And I thought that like I was like a supernatural being who is never going to get their period

and like, and that made me really powerful. And then I got it. And then I was like, did I just shit myself? My mom was like, no. And I was like, oh. I know that part of the story that you thought you getting your period was you shitting yourself. A lot of people think that that's the same I had Wendy Zuckerman from Science Versus on and that is exactly what she said is she the first time she got her period she thought she shart herself and the word shart in an Australian accent over and over and over again. Shots?

So funny. Shots. So good. I, that is, I mean, and it also, I mean, but like period commercials, I'm like, you know, I'm sure that some people still are like, is my period blue? Like what is this? But even though, but I was expecting like, you know, beautiful, like perfect primary color red.

And it, so it makes sense that people think they shit themselves it's yeah it's just not everyone's experience yeah anyways what happens in Are You There? Got It's Me Margaret? I'll tell you okay so it's 1970 an 11 year old girl named Margaret played by Abby Ryder Forsten she's great comes home from summer camp back to her family in New York City. Ever heard of it? We meet Margaret's mom, Barbara, played by Rachel McAdams, her dad Herb, played by Benny

Safdie, as well as her paternal grandmother Sylvia. Played by Kathy Bates, question mark? Of Unsinkable Molly Brown fame. Margaret soon learns that she and her parents will be moving to New Jersey, something that Margaret deeply resents. So she prays to God, seemingly for the first time, because we'll learn that she was not raised with any religion.

And she says, are you there, God? It's me, Margaret. Hey, that's the name of the movie. And she says, please there God? It's me Margaret. Hey, that's the name of the movie and She says please stop this move to New Jersey from happening or at the very least Please make it so that New Jersey doesn't suck too bad God does not stop the move So Margaret and her family arrive in Jersey a girl from the neighborhood named Nancy invites Margaret over So they're hanging out Nancy comments on Margaret's flat chest and she boasts that she's already started growing

bosoms Nancy also asks if Margaret has ever kissed a boy. She admits that she hasn't either, but she practices a lot on her bedpost. Then Nancy's older brother, Evan, and his friend Moose show up. We just never, in neither the book nor the movie, we never question the name Moose. It's literally, it's like Margaret, Nancy, Evan, Moose.

Like they call him that at school. Like I guess we don't see his teachers call him that, but that's the feeling you get, that they also call him Moose. It's very 70s, or it's very how I imagined the 70s. I'm like, yeah, they were just kids named Moose. They would mow your lawn. I don't know.

Certainly. And so Margaret seems to take a liking to Moose. Nancy then invites Margaret to join her secret club in which they cannot wear socks. Nancy's a freak. The no socks thing did like, I loved that. Because it was, I remember in seventh grade, I had a new group of friends.

And they all wore like the Adidas with the three stripes. And I was like, I have to get these shoes, mom. And then my mom bought me the knockoffs with four stripes. And I was like, no. That was, I think my thing in middle school was live strong bracelets. You had to have a live strong bracelet or you were not living strong.

So true, So true. Anyway, Margaret complies to the no sock rule and she lives to regret it. But Margaret returns home and she talks slash praise to God again and asks God to make her boobs grow. Then it's the first day of sixth grade at her new school. Margaret meets the other girls in the secret club, Janie and Gretchen. Also in their class is a boy who all the girls think is cute named Philip Leroy. There's another boy who they all think is like Dweeby, Norman Fisher, and then there's also a girl who is far taller and more developed than mostly everyone else and her name is Laura Danker who has a reputation

because she lets boys feel her up behind the A&P supermarket, or at least that's the rumor that Nancy spreads. Laura Innocence. Truly, yes. And they also meet their teacher, Mr. Benedict, and it's his first year teaching, and he's nervous and he's nice and he's a good teacher. Anyway, after school is the first secret club meeting

at Nancy's house. Nancy establishes more rules in addition to the no sock rule, such as you have to wear a bra. If anyone gets their period, they have to tell the others about it. They have to make boy books and write about the boys that they like, which they have to tell the others about it. They have to make boy books and write about the boys that they like, which

they have to show each other and they can never lie about them. A rule that Margaret immediately breaks because she denies her crush on moose. Well, I mean, admitting that you're lusting after someone named moose can't be an easy journey. This is true, yes. That night, Margaret tells her mom that she wants to get a bra, and what I thought was a very cute scene

where Margaret is super embarrassed, Barbara is like, are you sure you need one? Bras suck shit. And I was like, okay, mom. Yeah. But she's like, yes, of course, we'll get you a bra because Barbara is a very sweet, tender, supportive mother. Rachel McAdams is so good in this part.

I know that when this movie came out, people were like, she was snubbed for, I was like, I agree. She was like, I thought she did such a great job. Also the costume designer was her enemy in this. Like, the clothes they put her in and the clothes they put Kathy Bates in, I was like, all the favors that they could have been doing for Rachel McAdams, they were doing for Kathy Bates.

Kathy Bates was really turning some interesting looks in this movie. Yeah, at very least, I had in my notes, I was like, at least they let Rachel McAdams have the coolest hairstyle available. Like she did have the coolest 70s hair out of all of the moms. Just like so many of these scenes,

even though it's like, you know, we went through this decades later, I was like, oh my God, I never had that first bra shopping experience. My aunt just slipped me, I remember my first bra had Winnie the Pooh on it, and I was like, I felt so infantilized. But I'm like, better than nothing, we'll take it.

That's amazing. Okay, and then so speaking of Margaret's mom, Barbara, she's adjusting to being a stay at home mom. She's learning how to cook. She goes to a PTA meeting and volunteers to be a part of every school committee because she really wants to be like super involved with Margaret's life and everything.

Then Margaret's teacher, Mr. Benedict, announces that they have to do this like year long research project. And he suggests to Margaret that she does hers on religion because she had said that she hates religious holidays and does not consider herself to be religious because even though her dad is Jewish and her mom is Christian again they raised her without religion and they're letting her choose what religion she wants to be when she grows up. She also mentions that

she has never met her maternal grandparents. So Margaret asks her mom about this and Barbara reveals that her super Christian parents more or less disowned her when she married a Jewish man. And Margaret is appalled by this and wonders like what kind of awful people would do something like that, especially to someone as nice as her mom. And then Barbara's like, enough of that. Let's go bra shopping. Let's go bra bra shopping. Barbara says that.

Get it? Whoa. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Genius. And so Margaret gets her first bra, this little training bra, which is super uncomfortable. And Margaret cannot wait to take it off. But then there's a scene where she like,

stuffs it with socks and dances around her room. It's very fun. Although I will say, you're not allowed, Matilda owns that song. Sorry, you can't. Oh. Ooh. Yeah.

I will say, one of my few criticisms of this movie, pretty uncreative needle drops. I was underwhelmed by the 70s needle drops. Yeah, could have been a better soundtrack. Absolutely. Maybe they didn't have the budget. I mean, that's an expensive song to get. True.

That Matilda, I agree, Matilda perfected. Yeah. Okay, so at the next secret club meeting, the girls share their boy books and the three others, Nancy, Janie and Gretchen all put Philip Leroy in their book. This is where like Margaret puts moose but she lies and she says she also put Philip Leroy. Then they compare bra sizes. Everyone has a training bra except for Nancy who says that she does an exercise to grow her boobs. So they all do the exercise together. For some reason it involves screaming. You have to chant and the chant goes, I must, I must, I must increase my bust." And we're like, exactly.

Totally Nancy. I do feel like everyone knew a kid sort of like Nancy. Where it's just like, she doesn't know what she's talking about, but she is always speaking the loudest. And so like, I definitely like as a quiet kid was like, yeah, I guess she, she must know. She must be right. Yeah. Yeah. She's saying it loudly. Yeah must be right. Yeah. Yeah, she's saying it loudly and so confidently. Yeah. So then Margaret goes to visit Grandma Kathy Bates in the city. Margaret talks to God again and says that maybe she'll try to decide what religion she

wants to be. So she asks her grandma if she can go to temple with her. So they go. But Margaret is pretty underwhelmed and she doesn't really feel the presence of God. She also intends to go to a Christian service to see what that's like. A couple scenes later, she goes with Janie and her family to their church. I appreciate representation of kids being like church, regardless of religion, like our religious services are boring when you're 12.

Yeah. And like, they're just, there's just nothing to love. I had such a weird, I like was watching her go to the, to like services with friends and like try out different things. I like did that when I was a kid. I really, well, it was mostly because I lived pretty far away from a lot of my friends. And so if we did a sleepover on Saturday, it was like, well, you're going to church

with us in the morning. And I remember like going to a Catholic. I was raised Quaker, which is also kind of nothing. Like it's mostly just being quiet. And so like I didn't really have any like solid beliefs or anything. So I actually like related to this part a lot and I would go to other services and just be like, I mean, this is so cool.

And like going to a Catholic one and like, they were like, you can't have a cracker. And I was like, why? They were like, you're not Catholic. And I was like, okay. Yeah, I grew up between a couple different faiths too and never got to the finish line with any of them. And so whatever the snack was, I couldn't have it.

You're like, what the fuck? And it was always really interesting to go see how other people spend the time they don't want to spend at church on a Sunday morning. But it was always like, well, I'd rather not do any of that. Actually, a very formative memory for me was going to a sleepover. The girl whose house it was, stole the VHS of the porn movie

that her parents had rented. So we watched it and we were like, oh my God. And it was the first time I ever saw like, I didn't know what oral sex was, but I saw a blow job being performed. And I was like, what's that? Yeah, I was like 10, I think. And then the next day,

they took all the people that sleep over to church, and they handed out Bibles. And again, because I was raised not in religion at all, they hand me a Bible, and they're like, okay, Caitlin, turn to whatever fucking Matthew, whatever, and I didn't know how to, because it wasn't just like a page number. No, it's not an intuitive system.

Not fucking at all. So I had no idea how to find what page we were supposed to be on. And so I'm just sitting there from like, what felt like hours, just sort of like scrambling through the book, flipping through the pages. And then like my friend next to me had to like do it for me, but I like remember feeling so humiliated.

And then I was like, fuck this religion for making me feel embarrassed. I'll never even consider it. God humiliated me today. What an educational 24 hours for you. Truly. That's why it's such a formative memory for me. Yeah, yeah.

That's so cool. God, thinking about weird sort of dirty stuff that you would do at sleepovers as a kid was so like, do you guys remember on AIM Smarter Child where it was literally a proto AI? Yes. And if you typed to it, it would type back. That was how I learned so many sexual words because I would go to my friend Ryan's house, we would go to her house for sleepovers and she, I think she was like, and I say this with love,

she was kind of the Nancy of our friend group where she talked a lot. Every friend group needs a Nancy because otherwise nothing gets done. Exactly, she talked a lot, but did she know what she was saying? But she would, she would like, make us gather around her like family's desktop computer after her parents went

to sleep and then would like send smarter child dirty messages. And we'd be like, whoa. And cause smarter child would always respond. Like I cannot reply to that. And we're like, and then there was also a spartan child that was specifically Austin Powers three themed that would say that would say like, yeah, baby, I can't respond to that. That question to Randy. Well, speaking of kids getting into dirty little hijinks, Margaret and her friends look at a diagram of a penis in an anatomy textbook and they're like, oh my God, why does it look like that?

And then they also look at a Playboy magazine that belongs to Margaret's dad and they wonder if their boobs will ever look like they do in the Playboy magazine. Meanwhile, Margaret and everyone in her class get invited to a party thrown by Norman Fisher, that like quote-unquote dweeby kid. They all go to the party, they play spin the bottle, they play two minutes in the closet, which is basically seven minutes in heaven. Margaret and Philip Leroy, the boy that everyone has a crush on, get matched up and they go in the bathroom

and he surprised kisses her, it's true. Which is sort of what that whole game is predicated on too. Yeah, it is very yucky. But what 11-year-olds were able to have conversations about consent in the 70s? In the 70s, yeah. That moment was the one where I was like, oh my god, I'm so embarrassed for the actor playing Philip Leroy.

Because it's just like a kid trying to be cool and you're like, stop. Stop. That's actually one of the moments that I think that the book outdoes the movie in. Where the book, I think far better, is actually more thoughtful in its depiction of that. Where Margaret goes through this, she was like,

well, that was uncomfortable. I didn't love that. But I need to tell my friends that I loved that. Which, so I thought that the book was a little more insightful, because I feel like the movie just presents it as like, wow, that was awesome, where she actually has more of an internal dialogue. Yeah, the movie, it seems in the movie that she's swooning

over this kiss, and her friends are jealous. So now Margaret has had her first kiss but she still hasn't started growing boobs or gotten her period. Gretchen is the first of the group to get her period and Margaret is so jealous all she wants is to get her period so that she can be quote unquote normal like everybody else and she's super worried that she will be a late bloomer. I like what Gretchen's like, everything's different you wouldn't understand. So then Margaret and Janie go to a pharmacy and buy pads so that they can practice using them so they can be ready when the time comes. Then Nancy sends a postcard to Margaret saying that she got her period.

But we find out that she was lying because she actually gets her period for the first time when she and Margaret are in the city seeing the Rockettes together. This is where I get very confused because like timeline wise, this was like a montage of scenes and it was like a montage of scenes and it was like Christmas time when the... Oh, right. And then she got this postcard from Nancy and she was like, oh, they went to DC

for President's Day weekend, which is like, when's that? And then... That's January, question mark? Right, but then they go see the Rockettes and isn't that just on during Christmas? Um I think they do it other times of the year or maybe they did it in the 70s? I don't know, but yeah. I thought the Rockettes was like just a Christmas time thing. Oh I didn't know that. But maybe I'm wrong. No I'm pretty sure they do other times of year but I think that Christmas it's like they're not cracker. Okay, got it. Yeah I'm guessing like a couple months past when they go into

the city together. Yeah. And Nancy gets her period and Margaret feels betrayed that Nancy lied to her. Then at school Margaret gets grouped with Norman Fisher, Philip Leroy, and Laura Danker for a project, Laura confronts Margaret about her friend group being so cruel to Laura just because of how she looks and like spreading rumors about her. Go Laura! Margaret realizes that she's been like a judgy bad person. Meanwhile, Philip makes a mean comment about Margaret's flat chest. Other things happen where like Margaret's parents cancel her upcoming trip to Florida

to visit grandma Kathy Bates because Barbara's parents are coming to visit because Barbara had sent them a card and like they're trying to kind of rekindle their estranged relationship. It's so hard to not feel for literally everyone in this setup. It's such a beautiful, painful sequence to watch

because everyone's mad at Rachel McAdams, which makes sense because her parents are anti-Semitic weirdos. But you can also see that she has this little girl part of her that just wants to believe that her parents don't suck. It's just so painful to watch. I know.

And then on top of all that, Margaret is still mad at Nancy for lying. Margaret's confused spiritually because she's talking and praying to God and looking for him, but she can't seem to find him. So things are bad. It is the low point of the movie.

Then Barbara's parents, AKA Margaret's maternal grandparents arrive. It's awkward. And it's even more awkward when grandma Kathy Bates shows up unexpectedly with her new fuck buddy. With her new boyfriend. With her new boyfriend.

Just like, what a movie. Again, Kathy Bates in this movie is like, that's aspirational for me. I'm like, I wanna be the New York City Jewish grandma wearing these clothes, going to Florida to like get laid. She's down there fucking, oh my God. Making sexy little comments about cholesterol. You're like, yeah, sure. Why not?

Yup, yup. So then Margaret's maternal grandparents are asking if she's ever been to Sunday school. And Kathy Bates is like, no, because Margaret is Jewish. And Margaret is like, no, I'm neither. I'm nothing. I don't even believe in God. Benny Safdie and Rachel McAdams are freaking out. They're like, it's drama. Yeah. Barbara feels horrible. Margaret storms out of the room and Margaret starts writing her

research project on religion where she says like, I thought you were supposed to be able to pray to God and he would answer your prayers prayers but I've prayed and prayed and things just keep getting worse no one seems to be listening to me and it just makes her feel very lost and alone but her mom comforts her and apologizes for how messy things got and then it's the last day of school there's like this carnival thing and Margaret approaches Laura Danker and basically like extends an olive branch like hey you want to be friends want to come dance with me and Janey joins them as well it feels like it's kind of implied that Margaret either like won't be friends with or won't be as close to Nancy and maybe Gretchen much after this.

And then in the denouement, we see that Barbara has returned to teaching art. She's like gotten a little better about like establishing boundaries and saying no to being on all the school committees. Love that scene. I love that. It's really where she's just like, Oh, I don't want to. I don't want to. So no, thank you. Meanwhile, Margaret is gearing up to go back to summer camp. Uh, but before she does, she has a little chat with moose who suggests that they hang out when she gets back from camp and she's giddy about it. And guess what else makes her giddy?

She gets her period right after this. Thank you God. Yeah, right. God is real. God is real and God gave Margaret her period. Whatever, it's technically what she, God is like, I do, God is literally just like Santa. Like it's the same, we're taught the same thing

except God is like meaner. Santa is like very hands off when it comes to like the pain of living. Well, except he has this whole naughty list and he's like, I'll give you coal. Oh, that's true. It really depends, it depends on what sect of Santaism you are.

God gives you kind of like spiritual coal. Yeah. Anyway, that's the end of the movie. Let's take another quick break. And we'll come right back. Hey kids, it's me, Kevin Smith. And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith. That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said

is just a beardless, d***less version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless D***less Me. I'm the old one. I'm the young one. And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. It could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out. It's a work in progress. Listen to Beardless D***less Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council. And we're back. I would love to start. I wanted to just talk a little bit about Book to Screen before we jump into the conversation. So we're all book heads here. I know we joke about on the show this being an anti-book podcast, but it's just not true. Yeah, I blew through the book yesterday before watching the documentary and then eventually watching the movie. I will say that I feel like the third act of this movie after revisiting the book, I found kind of underwhelming and it felt like they were movie-fying and making sure that everything was resolved

and that everything is gonna be okay from now on with the exception of it being clear that the maternal grandparents are not gonna be in their lives. That is sort of the only, the one thing that's left unsatisfactory. And I mean, I don't know, Judy Blume says that she thinks the movie

is better than the book, so who the fuck am I? What? Wow. She said that. She said that, and I was also like, psh, wrong, but whatever. How long has it been since she read the book? Exactly, yeah.

Let's neg Judy Blume. But I did, I mean, part of what I, as I was rereading it, part of what I was remembering that I really like about Judy Blume books is that there aren't these neat conclusions that I sort of felt happened at the end of this movie. One difference is that you know Margaret has that same interaction with Moose the day she gets her period but Moose is I think more of a like typical pubescent boy and is like get out of my way,

see you later. Like it's just a more authentic reaction than like I'm the nice boy and is like, get out of my way, see you later. It's just a more authentic reaction than like, I'm the nice boy and I hope you have an epic summer at camp. Should we chill soon? Which just doesn't feel as real, you know? And Moose in general I think was portrayed a little more realistically as like, he clearly has a crush on her but has been socialized to be like, that's gross.

Other things with the issue between Laura and Margaret is intentionally left unresolved in the book, which I think is actually really smart, because as a kid, I feel like that forces you to put yourself in Margaret's position more. And the interaction between them at the library and following her into the church is the same, where she's like, I feel so horrible and I don't know.

But in the book, Margaret isn't quite able to get the courage up to actually apologize. She doesn't really stand up to Nancy, and she's just sort of hoping that after summer, she won't be as close with Nancy. But there's no confrontation, there's no big moment of victory, which again, just feels more realistic. Right. Imagine how hard it is as a 12 year old to stand

up to your domineering friend. It's like nearly impossible for almost every kid would not have been me. No, there's also that the fact that like you're going to keep going to school with these kids. Like, yeah, this is the end of the school year, but like, you're gonna be with them for the next like, six years. Like, it's not like, oh, everything has to be resolved at the end of the year. It's like, I'll see him next year and things will be the same and or different.

Right. I mean, and yeah, again, I was thinking about Blubber, where I don't, I mean, I don't remember the beat for beat of that book, but it more puts you in the position of like, what if you were a bystander to bullying, and what if you weren't able to get the courage up versus this character has, does the quote unquote right thing to do.

Which isn't, I mean, that's not like a story told that way is bad or less valuable. It just feels not Judy Blume to me, because it's supposed to like force you to sit in that and be like, what would I do? And then the final thing was the way that her mom's story resolves where, and this feels more of maybe a thing of the times, but it's also something that's like very tied to Judy Bloom's life of like,

she didn't start writing until she was staying at home alone with her two kids while her first husband, who she would later write best-selling fiction about, fantasizing about, cheating on, went to work in the city. I think that there's, to some extent, Margaret's mom is a self-insert character for her. But at the end of the book, she doesn't get that satisfying conclusion of she's balancing being a housewife and still fulfilling her passion.

Like in the book, it's sort of left as like a, this sucks for her mom, but she's going to try to make the best of it. And I don't know, like I, not that I wanted the movie. I think, I think I get what the movie is doing. It's very movie. And if I hadn't read the book, I don't think it would have like registered for me at all. But I just, I do kind of like when movies for kids

don't end quite so neatly. But that's really my only problem with the movie. Yeah. The other thing that I read, cause I didn't reread the book, but I read listicles of what the difference is between the book and the movie adaptation. Same thing, same thing.

And one thing that I saw was that the movie omits, so with the Laura Danker character, I think it's present in the book that Nancy makes up rumors about her that she lets boys feel her. But that there's- Oh yes, that confrontation. Well, there's also a component of the book

that their teacher, Mr. Benedict, leers at Laura Danker and chooses her to be his dance partner when he's demonstrating them how to do a square dance or whatever. Yeah. So I wonder if they recorded that but cut it out because there was the square dancing scene that like had nothing to do with anything and I wonder if they like filmed it and then like cut that storyline out. I also this was just my read on it. It was also unclear to me that when Nancy was insisting that the teacher was doing this, not to not believe women,

but Nancy is known to telephib and make shit up. And so to me, at least in the book, it was unclear if that was actually happening or if it was Nancy projecting, but that definitely is, like they don't even get close to touching it because again, they need to movie-fy the movie and be like Mr. Benedict is a great teacher, no notes, not weird at all.

Right. Yeah. Which I, you know, for this movie I was okay with. Yeah, I mean I don't think that the tone of this movie that that really fit and at least in my opinion, it was kind of unclear on the, in the book whether that was Nancy Nancying or if that was something that was actually taking place.

Yeah. Right, because obviously there are many cases of grown adult men being really gross toward underage girls. But yeah, I'm like, does this movie have the space or the tone to address something like that right I think maybe not so my 10th grade art teacher was like Jamie you know it'd be really cool if you went to the park and drank a whole bottle of cough syrup and then took pictures and then showed me the

picture you're just like and I was like yeah I remember you telling me this story before dudes rock and rock. Dudes rock. So frightening. But yeah, I think otherwise the movie is a pretty faithful adaptation of the book. And I mean, both of them, both obviously we're going to focus on the movie here, but I love that it is one of the few movies about young girls. We've talked about this a lot on the podcast where there's just so few of them,

at least as far as mainstream movies go. And it's a movie that just has a lot of compelling themes and subplots between friendship among girls and figuring out who your friends are and the kind of person you want to be along the way there's you know, just the exploration of Going through puberty and trying to feel quote-unquote normal and fit in during like one of the most confusing times in your life and like being hyper aware of

and like being hyper aware of your body and other people's bodies and how they're all developing and then like a byproduct of that being body shaming yourself. So you have like kind of internalized like hatred of your body because you feel like you're not normal or you feel like what's happening to you is freakish. And then you're also fixating on other people's bodies

and noticing that oh they're different from yours so they must be a quote-unquote weirdo and we see that with the Laura Danker character. You've got the exploration of sexuality and you know the girls developing crushes and obviously everything we see in this movie is like very hetero because this is adapted from a book from the 70s. It would be nice to see, you know, more inclusive coming of age stories about queer kids exploring their sexuality and their gender. But I do love how it's portrayed as like, most of the feelings about the crushes are

like about what your friends will think of them. Like it's yeah the person you have a crush on is is sort of tangential like because it's really about the feelings you're having and what that means with the relationships that are actually in your life like your relationships to your friends and like what will they think of you because of this feeling you have what will they like is it acceptable is it will they think you're weird and laugh feeling you have? What will they, is it acceptable? Is it, will they think you're weird and laugh at you? That's where most of the anxiety is. It's not actually from having a crush.

It's all this other stuff. I feel like, and because the, I feel like the two minutes in bathroom or whatever the fuck they were calling it, because that was portrayed a little differently in the movie to the book, I feel like it lost that a little bit, but it's like Margaret doesn't really have a crush

on Philip, she just knows that she's supposed to. And it's so, I mean this is true across the gender spectrum, but this felt closer to my own experience of so much of being in these social groups, especially at this age, is you're performing for the others. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And we don't even really, we know that Margaret wants boobs in her period, but it's mainly because she wants to prove herself to her friend group. And she doesn't get a bra because she's like, it's time for me to have a bra. She gets a bra because it's one of the weird rules of the weird group.

And the fight club or whatever. Right. And she has a crush on Phillip because she's supposed to, but she doesn't actually, but she knows that if she, if she says she has a crush on Moose, well, Nancy doesn't like Moose and so it's not allowed. So it's like, you know, in the way that like a lot of these, I mean, just friend groups at all,

but you know, especially the younger you are, it's just a fundamentally dishonest endeavor. Like they're all like lying out of their asses to each other. I wish in the book and in the movie, we got a little more focus on like, it seems like Margaret and Janie sort of connects the closest.

And I wish we got a little bit more on that. I mean, it's very much Margaret's story and that's fine, but I felt like Janie's sort of connects the closest. And I wish we got a little bit more on that. I mean, it's very much Margaret's story and that's fine. But I felt like Janie's sort of, who's also the only black girl that we really get any insight into in the movie. I just feel like we got less of her than the other girls in the group. And that is a shame because she's such a sweetie and it would be nice

to see Margaret actually sort of connect with her more. There's a really sweet, I forget if this happens in the movie, in the book there is a scene where, when Margaret is getting her bra, they run into Janie and her mom on their way to do the same thing but they lie to each other about it where Janie is like, I'm getting new pajamas.

And Margaret's like, I am too, goodbye. But they're both clearly getting the like, grow bra or whatever. I was like, oh, it would have been cool to have more moments like that. Yeah, that is not in the movie. The scene that really stood out to me that is in the movie is the one where Margaret and Janie

go into the drug store to buy pads and they're like so apprehensive about it and then they like whip the tic tacs. They're like this is not about us buying pads this is about us buying tic tacs and the pads just happen to be there uh really cute um and I love the giddiness that they get after they like and it's just like the most normal interaction of like, yeah, the, the checker is just like going very, you know, but it's just completely like they're having an experience that is like, Oh my God, it's so crazy. We're doing this. Yeah.

This is the most important thing they've ever done. Right. And then I like the scene where when Margaret does go to like explore Christian church, she goes with Janie and it's to this predominantly black congregation. They're singing like lively gospel music. Uh, then you also see that there's like a montage where all the girls are getting ready for that dinner party. Yeah. I appreciate that we do see Janie's home life. There's a moment where like her mom is helping her

get ready and like doing her hair. But it does feel like, because one thing I do appreciate about the movie is that there's like, there's a variety of opinions or kind of feelings about what does it mean to get your period? Or like, how are we feeling about the prospect of getting our periods

and we have like Gretchen, she gets hers first, she's pretty nonchalant about it, she's like yeah it just freaking kind of happens dude. Meanwhile Nancy's lying about getting hers and then when she actually does get it she's like so scared and upset. And her mom is so like that broke my heart so much, that scene. Yeah. Where her mom is just like, what's up? Oh, okay, like here's the pad.

She's like calm down. Don't take too long. Yeah, she's like, don't make us like take too long at dinner because you got your period or whatever, bye. Yeah, I was also like, how does she not intuit what's happened here? She asks what's up, what's up? So many times. I'm like, look at your kid.

Think of how old they are. What the fuck do you think is up? Take a guess. Yeah, she does not handle that well. But yeah, that's like the Nancy situation. Margaret is desperate to get her period, because again, she wants to be normal. And then she's super excited when it does happen.

We don't know how Janie feels about the prospect of getting her period at all. And it feels very pointed that the only black girl gets overlooked in this matter. It's not as though Janie is overlooked constantly about everything, but it does feel weird because so much of the story is about like, oh no, we're going through puberty and this is how we feel about it. And then Janey feels, we do get that scene where she's like, Ooh, sex

is gross. I never want to be naked in front of anyone and I don't want to see anyone naked. And like, I remember thinking that when I was 11, I was like, I'm never gonna have sex. Sex is gross. But that's all you really get, I mean, and especially because at least from what I can tell, like Janie's race was changed for the movie, which is like, that's good, but also it's like, but then also be aware of how you've cast the movie

and adjust the script accordingly to make sure that characters are getting equal focus. Otherwise it just seems like you cast the movie and adjust the script accordingly to make sure that characters are getting equal focus. Otherwise it just seems like you cast the only black girl we really get to focus on in this movie in the quote unquote smallest part. So it's like flesh the part out a little bit. It's not that hard.

But I mean, this is also, while there are a lot of women involved and also James L. Brooks because his career is interesting, but there's a lot of women involved at the highest places in production. They are majority white women. And you can tell because the movie feels like it just ignores race

and it ignores any racial tension. In 1970. That would have existed in this predominantly white suburb in 1970. Yes, because it's, like I wrote this down where I was like, they're moving out of New York City in 1970, which is like, the early 70s were like, pretty like New York City, that was white flight,

basically, like, so. They may in fact be white flighting. They might be white flighting, cause he gets, I love also that they're like, oh, dad got a promotion. We never know what his job is. We know it's like, don't worry about it.

Whatever. No, no, I don't care. But I do love that. That like his job doesn't matter, but it is the reason we have to change all our lives around. And like that was interesting to me. But yeah, they moved to the suburb and like one New Jersey suburb being this racially integrated doesn't feel that realistic in the 19th in 1970. Yeah, they moved to the suburb and like one, New Jersey suburb being this racially integrated

doesn't feel that realistic in 1970. And then two, there is just no mention. And like, again, this is based on a book. So like, we can't really be mad that they didn't like invent things that weren't in the book. But like, I would have loved to see, yeah, like what you were saying about Janie, I would love to see Margaret having like a little bit

of a realization that like Janie's experience is different than her experience. And that would have been an interesting way for her to like wake up to the world a little bit, you know? As well as Mr. Benedict too. Where the book makes no mention to race whatsoever, so I'm not saying that like, in the book, everyone is white, it just isn't brought up. Like race is just not a component of the book,

which is a level of privilege in and of itself. But like, I don't even think it's like an effective argument if someone were to be like, well, it's the Bridgerton approach to casting, and we're just sort of, because other social issues are very present in here. Like the issue between inter, like this movie is a lot about interfaith marriage

and the prejudice that existed around interfaith marriage at this time. So it's like they live in a society, but- But one that doesn't acknowledge racism at all. In 1970. Like it's just, It's just weird. Yeah, I just, I don't know. Again, it's like, I'm glad that the cast is more diverse

than ostensibly the book appeared to be. But if you're gonna do that, it's a period piece. And you do have to make, I think if you're making these adjustments, a completely straightforward adaptation of the original book no longer makes total sense. Like you can't just, and it's not like the movie has to pivot and be entirely about race,

but again, it's like, Janey, like I, you do get the feeling that they sort of added in a majority black congregation and kind of called it a day. And that is lazy. Right, I mean, it's like, I just kept thinking like, a day and that is lazy. I mean, it's like, I just kept thinking like, you're telling me that this predominantly white middle to upper middle class suburb of again, mostly white kids has a black teacher and no one said anything about it.

And the shitty little teenage kids are not, are not like talking about it. Being shitty and racist about it? Nancy's not being shitty and racist about it, like yeah. Right. The tricky thing too is like, it's not like you want to be like, okay, the only black characters in this movie, we're gonna actually make a point of how terribly they're treated by the other characters.

But it just, it felt like it overcorrected that so far that racism mysteriously didn't exist in this society where interfaith marriage is still a big issue. And it's like, that just didn't happen. Yeah. One bone I have to pick with this movie, but also like pretty much all media, like there is essentially no representation of period pain.

True. So even, we're just talking about how hard it is There is essentially no representation of period pain. True. So even, we're just talking about how hard it is to find a movie that portrays or discusses periods. There is 10 times less media out there that portrays period pain. Yeah. Where it's all about like they're getting their periods. She gets her period and it's just like blood.

Like it's just like, oh, periods are just blood. You know, it's the end, you know you have your period because you're bleeding, but it's like at no point it does she feel sick or uncomfortable. Like nobody is talking about like cramps, nothing. One mention of cramping. Her mom asks her like, oh, do you have cramping? And she's like, no, not at all.

And it's like, I just, it's like, again, it's like, oh, do you have cramping? And she's like, no, not at all. And it's like. I just, it's, again, it's like you have, if you're having like four young girls who are starting to menstruate, give them a variety of experience. Exactly, exactly. Cause it's like, sure, that's not gonna happen to everyone, but that does happen to a lot of kids. And it is scary.

How interesting would it be if like Gretchen got her period first and was like, everything's fine, but everything's different now, you wouldn't understand. And thenchen got her period first and was like everything's fine, but everything's different now You wouldn't understand and then Nancy got her period and she was like actually I'm in so much pain and like I Wait, why is this different than my friend? You know, like that would be so And it would be I just like if I had seen any movies or TV shows growing up where that had been portrayed at all I would not have felt like such a freak that my period made me throw up.

I would at least know that somewhere else out there that was happening to other people. And other people would know that's a possibility. Because when I was 14 and was throwing up on my period, people were like, that doesn't happen. It's like, no, it doesn't. I had to leave school one day because I got my period, people were like, that doesn't happen. Like, it's like, no, it's the same. I had to leave school one day because I got my period. I was feeling horrible. I like went to the nurse's office to lie down. I was like, I, this is horrible. I need to just go home. And so I went to like collect my like belongings while the nurse called my mom. And as I was doing

that, I puked all over the floor of the school. And then I heard someone come into the hallway and be like, oh my God, and then just run away. Sorry. I never, to this day, knew who it was. It was really funny though. But I feel like the only movie I've seen

that acknowledges period cramps is that Natalie Portman movie, No Strings Attached. Yes, yes. Where they're like kind of lying around and they're like, owie we all have cramps. But that's like that is basically just scene setting for Ashton Kutcher to come in and be like, I brought cupcakes and I googled periods and then they're like great everything's fine now. Heroic. If we did it. There needs to be more just understanding and media representation of side effects, symptoms of menstruation.

Well, and just the range. This is actually, I'm obsessed, this is my white whale now, this is my Roman Empire, is that we have one word for pain with periods, right? We have cramps. But that experience can be like, oh, ow, like I'm a little uncomfortable. I'm going to take some ibuprofen and then I'll be fine. All the way to like, I'm throwing up for seven hours. I'm passing out from the pain. And we don't have a different word for that. We don't have, we just have cramps. So no wonder it's really hard for me to like,

describe my pain to a doctor or to my boss when I have to call out of work or like, cause if I just say cramps, nobody knows what the fuck that means. There's no language for it. Yes. And so like it literally, unless you are my parent or my like romantic

partner and you have seen with your own eyes what that pain does to me, I basically can't tell you what this pain is or like what's happening to me. And that's partly because we don't talk about it in media. Like how many different words do we have for like situationships and like all these different things so that we can understand what we're talking about when we talk to each other about romantic relationships. But we don't even stomach aches. We have like bloated, we have heartburn, we have you know we have all these different

words that means slightly different versions of my stomach hurts. Right. But like we don't have that for cramps And if we talked about it in the media more, we would have to have better phrases and better, more specific words. And then we could use those in other situations and people would know what the fuck we were talking about and how serious it was. It's why I started calling my really bad cramp, like when I throw up and pass out, those are death cramps.

Yeah. And I have to differentiate it because sometimes I just have cramps and like when I throw up and pass out, those are death cramps. And I have to differentiate it, because sometimes I just have cramps, and it sucks like it always sucks, but sometimes it's a medical emergency, you know? Right, right. God, and it's like, in terms of the movie, it's like, I just think it's frustrating what they chose to change versus what remained unaltered,

because it just feels like the easiest cop out for that is, well, we want it to be true to the book. And it's like, well, but you actually kind of made the ending very neat and clean in the way that is not true to the book. So why wouldn't you update elements like acknowledging racism because you have a more diverse cast? Why would you not update giving?

I mean, it wouldn't have changed anything about the story except better representation of what experiencing a period is like for different people if they had different, like the plot changes not at all. It's just better representation. So that said, I mean, I felt, it is a really good movie. Like I'm sure. Yeah, I enjoyed it.

I also like, we haven't even been able, one of the things I loved about it was like Rachel McAdams, like her character where she's, that she gets a journey and Sylvia gets a journey of like, my family left and I'm lonely, but like then I'm gonna go to Florida and like make friends and fuck buddies and like, and they all kind of end up in different places. You know, they all have journeys that

you follow throughout the movie. And it's like, Oh, I love that. I love that. Like we're following these three generations dealing with very different things, but they actually all get like a journey. Totally. Yeah. I wrote down for Grandma Kathy Bates that she says that one line of like, after they have moved to Jersey, she says like, I read that if you don't have any loved ones around, your life expectancy drops drastically. And I was like, parentheses, this is why people need to make and maintain friendships outside of their nuclear family. Well, but then she does that.

And she exactly she does it. I also got the feeling that she was being overdramatic in that, I'm like, there's no way this lady doesn't have a shitload of friends, right? She goes to Temple, she's got friends at Temple, surely. She's talking, I think she was just saying that to make her son feel guilty. But yeah, I love that there's these,

and that as with most Judy Blume books, like the women get the focus. But that doesn't mean that the, I think with Herb, I kept calling him Benny Safdie, but it is in fact Herb. But that Herb does have a few solid moments, especially in that sort of climactic scene with all the grandparents.

Oh, that's also a little bit different in the book, but I think the movie did do it better, where in the book, the Christian grandparents have already left by the time Kathy Bates gets there. I think it was better that they were all there at once. But in any case, that scene, it's very short, but I thought they did really well with it, with Herb and Rachel McAdams, I don't know.

Barbara. Barbara. Bra-bra, remember? Bra-bra. Have this really painful conversation where, you know, you can tell that Herb is like, well what the fuck, your parents are bigots, why are you inviting them over?

And not only are they bigots, they treated you like garbage. And so he hates them on so many levels, all of which are completely valid. And just like, I mean, again, it makes it stick out even more that the racism of this time isn't acknowledged, but just how prevalent anti-Semitism still was in the 70s and how discouraged interfaith marriages were.

And also, I'm not Jewish, so I can't speak to this. discouraged interfaith marriages were. And also I'm not Jewish so I can't speak to this. I did wanna just mention because I know that there is a lot of like, there's been a lot of discussion in the past however many years about Jewish characters being played by non-Jewish actors. I think it most often comes up in like Marvelous Mrs. Maisel conversations.

But the Kathy Bates is Christian and I can't speak to whether that was a sticking point for anybody, but I did just wanna acknowledge it. But something that was very sweet, that's a little BTS, is that the actor who plays Margaret, who is just the cutest kid, and did such a great job, Kelly Freeman Craig. Wait, no, that's the director, writer-director. Oh my God, I'm so sorry.

Okay, let's take it again. Abby Ryder Forsten, sorry, three names trip me up. Three names are in entertainment or serial killers, that's it. But in spite of being killers. Like, that's it. But, you know, in spite of being a three name, she's great. Avi Ryder Fortson wanted this part so badly that she wrote this really sweet letter that kind of feels like a letter a kid would write

to Judy Blume about how she felt so connected. She like wrote this long letter to the producers of the movie, including James Brooks, which was wild. But I just wanted to show and they published it in variety as well as she and Kathy Bates I guess had like a really great working relationship and that too I was like oh kids are so cool. That Abby in order to get into her part I don't know she was told to do this or if she just took it upon herself, wrote letters in character as Margaret to Kathy Bates

as if she were at camp and was like, hi, Grandma. And Kathy Bates wrote back and they shared some of those too. And I was like, that's so sweet. But I did wanna share just a little bit of her letter about why she connected with Margaret. So this is from Abby. Dear Kelly, Julie and Mr. Brooks,

it was really nice to meet you all. I really like Margaret a lot and feel really connected to her as we are both really insecure about growing up but still try to hide it. We are both not the popular kids at school and both just wanna have friends. I very much enjoyed both the book and the script of Margaret and feel like this would be an inspiring story

for young girls to know that they are enough in their own bodies. Everybody is changing, some faster than others, but eventually it doesn't matter. What matters is what's inside, not how big your boobs are. Margaret has her body changing and is having her quest for religion. I feel like she has a lot to be uncomfortable about

and she is also just starting at a new school and doesn't have any friends. I have always wanted to play a character like Margaret, a part that will help other people be confident in their own skins. When I read the script, I said to my mom, this is my life, I am Margaret. I get made fun of, I don't have a ton of good friends,

I don't really have a religion, and I feel out of place most of the time because none of my friends are in any of my classes. Even though I'm a good kid in class, I feel the school is like, okay, let's take all of Abby's friends away and see how well she does in school sitting next to a bunch of jerks.

It goes on from there, but I just like, I thought it was so sweet. And you can feel that in her performance too, that it's like, even though she's playing a kid 50 years earlier, that you know. I also love that it starts with, hi Julie, Kelly and Mr. Brooks. Mr. Brooks, so it's like, okay.

So not you. You should have just wrote a letter to God. Are you there God? Yeah. It's me, Abby. James Brooke is like so fascinating anyways, but, and also just to shout out this was written and directed by Kelly Freeman Craig, who had previously written and directed The Edge of 17,

which I haven't seen, but there you go. It's true. It's true. We should cover that on the show at some point. Yeah. The movie does pass the Bechdel test, obviously, so many times. So much. But our nipple scale, the scale where we rate the movie zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, I think I'd give this like, I think a four. There's areas for improvement as far as like, obviously they wanted to be more inclusive in their casting, but at the expense of like pretending like

racism isn't a thing, which felt quite glaring. And again, it's all very Cis het characters. It is adapted from source material from the 70s, so it's not necessarily surprising, but it just means that we need more stories, similar stories, but that are more inclusive and more representative of everyone that we have living in society today. And ultimately, if they had to make a choice between doing an all white cast and sticking completely to the source material and imperfectly having a more diverse cast but not telling how the story changes, I'm glad they did what they did. I wish they could have gone further, but they were still in the right direction for me anyway. Right direction for improvement.

But yeah, I think I'll give it four nipples. Yeah, I agree with that. I think four nipples is perfect. Like in terms of content and storytelling, like I just loved the focus on the three women and their journeys and Margaret's like genuine struggle. I would maybe go three and a half just because of my personal frustration

with no representation of period pain, but they're certainly not alone in that. True. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna be a coward and go 3.75 and say, hey, I'm right between the two of you. Yeah, I agree. I have my gripes with this movie, but again, it's definitely, and almost unfortunately,

a huge step forward for portraying a version of puberty in a way that most movies just don't have the stones to make. I have issues with, and I'm with Kate on, I would rather imperfect and have a more diverse cast. And it's, I mean, I know it's messy, but also maybe having more black producers and creatives on your project could help that. But all said and done, I think like,

I'm just really glad that this movie exists. I would recommend, you know, if you have, you know, a kid in your life that is coming of age and is going to menstruate. This is a cool movie to show to them. I agree with Kate that the spectrum of experience isn't shown, but I think it's also like, it speaks to the culture, dare I say, that it took 50 years to get this far.

Like, it should not be taking place so far in the past. This movie should have come out in 1974. But because it didn't, I think that this is certainly a step in the right direction. And I feel like it was kind of overlooked in this Oscar season. I know most people bring up Rachel McAdams' performance as the standout, but I just think that in general,

movies that are about young women coming of age are generally overlooked, overlooked, and viewed as kind of frivolous in a way that isn't fair. This is a great movie, I really enjoyed it. 3.75 nipples, and I'm not giving away to anyone because this is a movie for children. Yes, fair. 99% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes critics' score, by the way.

This is a beloved movie. It's beloved. But also $30 million budget and only $21.5 million box office. I think that that has to do with promotion too. I did not see this movie promoted really at all. Same. And to be fair, part of the reason this movie didn't exist earlier is because Judy Bloom turned down a lot of opportunities to have it adapted. But her reasoning was that she didn't think it would be adapted responsibly. So it's just, it's complicated, it's complicated.

Also Hans Zimmer composed the score, which I did not resonate for me at all, but. Notice. There you go. No, it just sounded sort of generic anyways. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Kate. Come back any time.

Yeah, thank you for having me. Tell us where we can find you online, plug away. Oh my gosh, okay, well, Cramped is a 10 episode limited series at C-R-A-M-P-E-D. The last episode, it will be out by the time this episode comes out, so go listen, go binge all 10 episodes. Anywhere you get your podcasts,

you can find me on Instagram at Kate Helen Downey, full government name, three names. Oh yeah, you're a three name. I'm a three name. Are you a serial killer or are you an entertainment or? Maybe. So far just entertainment, but who knows? I could be a double threat someday.

Life is long. And then on TikTok you can find me at Kate Is Cramped and I do a lot more like educational period pain content on there. Nice, you can follow us. In all the normal places. On the normal places, especially the best place I would say is our matri-on. Okay. Patreon.com slash spectral cast. And well, what do we have there, Jamie?

Is it two bonus episodes every month? For the low price of $5 as well as access to our back catalog of nearly 200 episodes at this point, as well as you're joining a community where you get to vote on the movies we cover and usually we listen, but sometimes we don't. It's the best way to directly support the show if you're a fan and if you're out of main feed episodes.

It's a little loosey goosey over on the matriarch. It's a fun vibe. It's a little loosey goosey over on the matriarch. It's a fun vibe. It's a little loosey moosey. It's yuck. Yeah, so you could go and find us there and that's where we cover a lot of your popular requests. And yeah, the other place to really follow us right now is on Instagram.

And with that, shall we must we must we must increase we must increase our listenership. So tell your friends about us. Perfect ending. Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of I Heart Media hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus produced by Sophie Licht, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrasensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechtelcast. You Feelin' This Too is a horror anthology podcast.

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