The Bechdel Cast - Black Swan with Hunter Harris

Episode Date: March 19, 2020

Swan Queens Caitlin and Jamie discuss Black Swan with special guest Hunter Harris live at the Brooklyn Podcast Festival!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @hunteryharris on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that?

That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller

from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality,

cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Bechtel heads. How's everybody doing? Hi. How's your dystopia? Yes. So my name's Jamie Loftus. My name's Caitlin Durante. And you, of course, are listening to the Bechdelcast, our weekly feminist podcast, where we use the Bechdel test to analyze movies of the world.

But this week is a weird week, so we just wanted to pop in at the top and say hello. Say hello. We hope everyone is safe and healthy and taking precautions. And, you know, it's a confusing and scary time. And we just, we hope you're all doing well. Yeah, hope you're taking care of yourselves as much as you're able to. We are very lucky to to be all right. And we're also lucky to be able to work from home. We're in separate places right now.

But if you're not, you know, we're here for you and, you know, take care of yourself. And if you have, you know, resources, please give to your local food bank and just you know solidarity we need each other and we love you and yeah on that front i mean we might be we're talking about maybe starting like a little twitter movie club we'll all watch the same movie at the same time we'll figure it out it's on the table everything's on the table who knows what tomorrow will bring right in a good way yes um you are about to hear an episode that we recorded live in brooklyn at the brooklyn podcast festival on the movie black swan um which brings us also to our upcoming live shows are, as you might imagine, still in flux. As to be expected.

So, yeah, so if you have tickets to our Austin shows, we will keep you posted on the status of those shows. We are going to keep it on the safe side, so we will go by whatever the recommendation is. And Boston shows are canceled and L.A. shows TBD, kind of the same deal. Yes, our L.A. show, which is not until mid-May, is hard to say what things will be like by then. So for now, it's still on. We will announce if anything changes. But we do have a show booked at Dynasty Typewriter in los angeles on may 15th it's my birthday show so of course we are talking about titanic which brings me to a little shout out i

need to do to a listener fan of the show nicole she gave me a very large titanic poster then that i then bestowed upon to you jamie for a housewarming gift because you just moved we still don't know what to do that it's so big it's so big but it's uh it's you know it's magnificent and just an enormous shout out to nicole for that wonderful gift thank you nicole um And I suppose that brings us to the episode that you're about to hear. Yes. So this was recorded at the Brooklyn Podcast Festival back in January at the Bell House with guest Hunter Harris. It was a simpler time. It was so much fun. It was a sold out show about Black black swan which is as you will hear a dense movie so we also had a few things uh we had so much to say about this movie that it didn't actually all

fit into the live show so you'll hear you know a dystopian caitlin and jamie popping in with some extra stuff we didn't have time for at the live show and with that enjoy on the Bechdel cast the questions asked are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hi! How is everybody? Hi, welcome to the Bechdel cast, Brooklyn.

How's it going? You told us, it's fine. Hi, Jamie. Hi, Caitlin. Hi. Welcome to the Bechtelcast. Thank you so much for coming. For everyone who isn't physically present in the future,

we are at the Bell House. For the Brooklyn Podcast Festival. Yeah, yeah. So thank you for coming. Yeah. We're here to talk about the most fucked up movie of all time. I'm so excited. Caitlin and I

we'll talk about what the podcast is in a second. But Caitlin and I a while ago were like we have to stop talking about fucked up movies at live shows because it bums people out. But then we're like, what do you think? Social Network, Black Swan, and The Sixth Sense. So it's fine.

It's our dark movie tour. It's fine, yeah. I did a palate cleanser before tonight's show. I should have done this after this. But I went to see Paddington Gets in a Jam today. Caitlin, I have a quick question because I know the answer. Were you the only adult without a child at the show? Yes, I was.

Go off queen. Okay, wonderful. Thank you. Well, to date, the only Broadway show I've ever seen is SpongeBob the Musical, also alone. Oh. It's a really good musical. Squidward taps with all six tentacles. It's like, how do they do that?

It's wild. Well, none of that passed the Bechdel test. Because we talked about Paddington and Squidward. You're right. Allies, but doesn't pass. Feminist icons. Feminist icons, Squidward and Paddington and Squidward. You're right. Allies, but doesn't pass. Feminist icons. Feminist icons, Squidward and Paddington. I think you'll all agree.

Yeah. So I'm Jamie. I'm Caitlin. And this is our feminist movie podcast. You know that. You've paid money to be here. But for all you listeners at home, is there anyone here who hasn't heard the Bechdel cast before?

Who's been dragged here? Oh. Okay. We've got some people. Okay, a lot of hostages. Interesting. Interesting. It just means we have people to convert.

Yeah. So for your benefit, this is a feminist movie podcast. We use the Bechdel test, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test to start discussion. Uh, Caitlin, what is the Bechdel test? Well, Jamie Bechdel-Wallace test to start discussion. Caitlin, what is the Bechdel test? Well, Jamie, I'm so glad you asked. It's a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel, and it requires that two female-identifying characters in a movie have to speak to each other about something other than a man.

Can it happen in movies? Usually not. It has, but not overwhelmingly so. Correct. Should we try it? Yeah, let's try it. You start. Okay.

Oh, fuck. I wish I had something. I know. I was like, I can only think about Squidward and Paddington. Yeah, no, no, no. You start. Oh, I have, okay.

Hey, Caitlin. Hey, Jamie. Okay. Names. Do, I have, okay. Hey, Caitlin. Hey, Jamie. Okay. Names. Do you identify as, are you more of like a white swan or a black swan? Oh, well, isn't that just the human condition, you know? I wake up on one way, I go to sleep the other way. Who knows where I start and where I end?

It all depends on what mommy says. It depends on how mommy treats me that day. Also, we should draw attention to your outfit. Right. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. As I will not shut up about all night,

I danced ballet for 15 years, and I've got shit left over, okay? So I've been waiting for a Black Swan episode for a long time because I've got a lot of shit I'm not using and I want it to use again. So for the listeners at home... Oh, I didn't say what I was wearing. Jamie is wearing...

Is this a leotard? Is this what you call this? Don't be worried. Yeah, it's a leotard. I don't know. Oh, can I say something very feminine? Yeah. Okay. I don't know. It's a later. Oh, can I say something very feminine? Yeah. Okay. I found out two days ago, I got my actual bra size measured, and there's an asterisk here, but I'm a 32C.

And I, okay, hold your applause. Because when I told you two days ago, you got very quiet as if you did not believe me caitlin doesn't believe women it's canon um i'm canceled but but you got very quiet but but including the the woman who had measured my bra size she was like you're a 32C and I was like how is that possible and she was just like well you have the largest rib cage I've ever seen and so that's also factored in you can have the smallest titties of all time and be a 32C we exist okay we're out here oh we have someone who just raised their hand they're like yeah yeah you all you need is a rip cage you're not really using okay you're like yeah i think i was like quiet and then i was like what my i know well my my boyfriend it

stopped passing the vital test but he he said later he said later he was like wow caitlin really did not believe you well it was palpable my defense the room and my in her defense my titties are very small i i think we are all we were all led to believe we live in a society okay we do live in a society leads us to believe that the larger the breast, the larger the cup. And there's a direct correlation. Am I wrong? So that's why I was surprised. Okay.

Thank you for that feminist analysis of my literal titties that are out right now. But yeah, I'm wearing my ballet best tonight because we're talking about Black Swan. We're so excited. It's been a long time request and I am so thrilled. We have the best possible person in the entire world to talk about it with us.

So let's bring her out. Let's do it. She is wonderful. She's a staff writer at Vulture. Give it up for Hunter Harris. Oh, oh, oh, oh. There she is. Yes. Hello.

Hi. Hi, hi, hi. How are you? I think I drank too much beer in the group. Never happened in my life. She's not like the other girls. Caitlin and I, yeah, we brought out a full bottle of white wine. That feels like a ballet drink.

I don't know. Ballerinas can drink anything. They drink ecstasy in this movie. Yeah, Hunter, we're so excited you're here, particularly for this movie. So let's get into it. What is everyone's experience with Black Swan? What's your experience with it, Hunter? Okay, so when I was in high school, I was very pretentious, obviously. And I remember when I first started reading about movies, new movies, I was like very pretentious obviously and I remember like when I first started like reading about movies like new movies I was like oh this movie Black Swan like looks legit because it like had won at Venice or something and um right and so and then I dragged all my friends to see it and

they like we all loved it I like on Facebook shows you, like, 10 years ago what your Facebook status was, they were all about Black Swan. Most of the time, just Black Swan in all caps. Because I was a writer. But, so we saw it and, like, loved it and would talk about it every day. And then I remember being in speech and debate and my teacher, who I guess I won't name, um, was like, hated it. I thought it was so like weird and bad. And, and that was, we got into like a big fight about it. And I think I, I mean, I, I quit speech and debate cause I, for other reasons, but that was always in the back of my mind. Like, did not trust this man who did not like Black Swan. Incredible.

Caitlin, what's your experience with the movie? I saw it in theaters in 2010, and I had only seen it that one time before re-watching it to prep because I don't know if you know this about me, but I love a good romp, and this movie is not a romp.

I thought there was going to be a twist. I'm like, how could you have interpreted this as a romp? This movie makes me feel terrible, and I don't like watching movies that make me feel terrible. So I saw it. I walked out of the theater. I was with my best friend, and I was like, fuck that movie. I walked out of the theater. I was with my best friend and I was like fuck that movie I feel so horrible

And I was like, I'm never watching this again But then I did Yeah, so that's my history I'm excited to talk about it, but I find this movie very challenging Wow brave I know, thank you. Jamie, this movie is one of my favorite movies of all time but I cannot watch it too often because it's like triggering in every single possible way.

After I watch it I'm like, I remember why mental illness was kind of fun. Maybe we should revisit it. And then you're like, wait, wait, wait, no, no, fun. And like, maybe we should revisit it. And then you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. And then I watch the end. I'm like, oh, right.

That's why we don't do that anymore. But I really, I love this movie. This movie came out at like, I was like very into dance growing up. And this came out at like the peak of that. I was like, I don't know when in 2010 it came out so I was like either a senior in high school or I just entered college and I like saw it with my dance friends and we were all we all took away the wrong message from it we were like wow

her pursuit for greatness paid off like we were so thrilled about it. Like, I love this movie. It makes me... And I think, like, the more I watch it, the older I get, the more anxious it makes me. Yes. But I feel like that's, like, almost a testament to the movie, where there were mental illness symptoms portrayed in this movie that I hadn't even begun to display when I first saw it.

And then I watch it, you know, six or seven years later, I'm like, oh, the scratching, right. And like, you know, like there's a lot going on in this movie and it weirdly specifically appealed to me at the exact moment it came out. And so I'm going to defend it too much. Okay. Yeah. Well, should we do the recap and go from there? Yeah, let's recap it. So we meet Nina. That's Natalie Portman. Nina Sayers. Yes.

She's a very dedicated ballet dancer in New York City. Ever heard of it? No! Pandering. Is it just called the New York City Ballet Company? I think so. It's a fake one, right? Okay.

Or is it real? I think it's real. It's real? Okay, fine. Okay, I'm not a dancer. Okay, fine. It wasn't that good. We open on a scary dream she's having,

and then strange things start happening to her right away. Like, she sees a woman on the subway who looks exactly like her and is, like, doing the same little hair tuck behind the ear. I like that immediately in this movie you're like, oh, mirrors, a metaphor. Oh! And it keeps going. It doesn't stop. It's assuming that you're not getting it the first time.

Something that I didn't realize until I was on Wikipedia like four hours ago is that she's supposed to be 20 years old in this movie. Oh. Yeah, she's clearly 30. Interesting. We meet Lily. That's Mila Kunis. She is a new dancer to the company. And then we also meet Thomas, that's Vincent Castle.

He's like the director of the company. Who is Vincent Castle? Am I supposed to know who he is? And if so, why? He's in some stuff. Yeah, he's like a famous French movie star. And he's married to a beautiful younger woman. I mean, that's grounds.

Fair enough. Okay. Fair enough. He announces that they'll open their season with Swan Lake, but a more gritty version of it this time. They're like, it's Chris Nolan's Swan Lake.

And he needs a lead who can dance the Swan Queen, which means to do both the white swan and the black swan. He basically just raises his hand. He's like, I need the Madonna whore complex represented in this movie. Can anyone? So Nina is auditioning, the Madonna whore complex represented in this movie. Can anyone? So Nina is auditioning, but Lily

barges in and throws Nina off so she doesn't get cast in that role. Also because Toma only sees her as being right for the white swan because she's very innocent and controlled. And she goes to ask him for the part,

and then he forces himself on her and kisses her, and she bites back, and this convinces him that she is dark and edgy enough. Yes. Somehow, oh, God, it's like he's like, you passed the test. You're like, he's like, I assaulted you, and you assaulted me back. Like, you're just like, you passed the test. You're like, he's like, I assaulted you

and you assaulted me back. Like, you're just like, okay, ballet is the most fucked up thing in the entire world. But also,

in that scene, she's like, her big transformation is that she's just wearing lipstick. Like, he's like, and he says,

oh, you're so dolled up. Right. It's like, the lipstick I saw from my note a rider? Okay. Yeah,

yeah. That literally is what? Okay. Yeah, yeah. That literally is what it is. Oh, that's great. So she now has been cast as the Swan Queen, and Tomas shows her off at this, is that a gala? I don't know what a gala is. There's a staircase. There's a staircase.

It's a gala. Everyone's fancy. And this woman, Beth, Winona Ryder's character, is there. And she used to be the prima ballerina of the company, but she's being forced into retirement

because she is aging. Right. And just to be clear, aging in this movie is like ballet aging, and Winona Ryder was 38 when this movie is like ballet aging and when uh winona rider was 38 when this movie came out yeah she's they're like this old hag and like she is like she's still got eggs like she's fine you know i think she says that too she's like no i still have eggs because they're like oh she's hitting menopause and she's like i'm actually not i'm like i'm in

my sexual prime and at the end of this night tomah has nina come back to his place and he's very he's being very creepy he's asking about her sexual history and then he gives her a homework assignment which is to touch herself. And we're all like appropriate silence. Yikes. Has a male teacher ever given you a creepy homework assignment? Not that creepy, I'm happy to say.

Congratulations. I had a teacher in high school who was once, it was not like Vincent Cassell, whatever I don't know it wasn't like go home and jerk off but he was like I had an art teacher

oh he told you like to chug he told me to chug Robitussin he was like do you have cough medicine in your house I'm like yeah and he's like is it Robitussin? I'm like CBS brand close. And he's and he was like you should drink it.

Oh my. And then I did. What did he say? So he says drink it and you're like walking home like yeah let me go do that. Yeah because he was 26 and I was 15 and so I was like I better do what he says. And then I went home and I drank the Robituss 26 and I was 15. And so I was like, I better do what he says.

And then I went home and I drank the Robitussin and I was like, I feel sick. And then I took a picture on my Sony digital camera. And fortunately, that's where the story ends. But, you know. Yikes. I'm sorry that happened. Well, I'm fine.

Okay, good. So the following morning, after being given this creepy homework assignment, she follows through and starts masturbating. But uh-oh, her overbearing mother is in the room. Does everyone remember where they were the first time they saw this scene? It's like so alarming.

And then other weird stuff keeps happening. There's scratches on her back. There's like some other like body horror stuff happening with her fingernails. I just want to speak about the nails for one moment.

Yes, please. Because the thing that just, you know, really grinds my gears is that in this movie, the mom takes out scissors and clips her fingernails and just acts like this is normal. Yeah. Like, my God. And then later in the movie when she, like, the body horror increases and she's like, okay, enough of this nail shit. She takes scissors herself and does it.

Like, there's nothing else in the home. Who has nail scissors? We all have nail clippers, right? Right. These are, like, children's scissors. No, they're not. They're, like, they're, like, sewing scissors. They're, like, very sharp.

Yeah, but they're just, like, so clearly not meant for human nails. Right. I just think that needs to be discussed. Thank you. There's no context given for why there are no nail clippers in the house It takes place in the present day They live near a Duane Reade They could have them

It wouldn't be hard Does anything else happen? Nope, that's the end of the movie And then we find out that Beth Does anything else happen? Nope, that's the end of the movie. And then we find out that Beth has had a horrible accident that leaves her legs badly disfigured. And meanwhile, Nina is practicing and working very hard on the upcoming show. And then Tomas is like,

you're not fuckable enough when you're dancing. We're like, oh, geez. That's what she says. And Lily is showing up more and more, trying to be friends with Nina. Or is she? We don't know. It's almost like there's an unreliable narrator in this movie.

But they go out for drinks, Lily and Nina, and then Lily gives her, is this ecstasy? I don't know how drugs work. I think they do ecstasy. When Caitlin and I were talking about this backstage, Caitlin was like, okay, so then she takes an ecstasy. Oh no!

She has one unit of ecstasy she has an ecstasy yeah based on the narration we don't know who's giving it to her yeah Lily's like here have an ecstasy

and then that's the line that's the line and then the night progresses and then Nina and Lily go home together.

They make out, and they have sex. Or do they? The queer painting of a generation. Someone's cheering. Then the following morning, Nina is late getting to rehearsal, and Lily is there dancing in her place. Lily's like, yeah, I didn't stay over. What are you talking about?

So either she's gaslighting Nina, or Nina just imagined them having sex. And then she finds out that Lily was made her alternate for the swan queen and she thinks that Lily is trying to steal her role and then on the night of the performance she shows up but she's like all disoriented her mental state which has been unraveling this whole time is an all-time worse... That's not the name of the band, Caitlin. It's an all-time low. Yeah, I don't know why I said it like that. Yeah, that's definitely not an expression.

Okay. So she's seeing visions of herself on other people's faces during the show and then between acts she's growing feathers also we have in Brothers her feet are webbed her feet are webbed

yes her legs are her eyes are bloodshot yes or are they I don't know oh and then

and then during the show she is dropped she's dropped and that's like I just think we need to take a moment for that. Because that's like a big deal. A moment of silence. She's dropped and starts freaking out.

And then she's like, okay, fuck this. Puts on the black swan makeup. And she's like, let's get it popping. Right. But I think before that, she gets in a fight with Lily in her dressing room. Or does she? Or does she? And stabs her with a in her dressing room. Or does she? Or does she? And stabs her with a piece of broken mirror.

Or does she? Or does she? And then Nina like drags her body into the bathroom and then goes out as the black swan and like does, she does great as the black swan. Everyone loves it.

Or she does, yeah. And then there's another act break and Nina comes down to her dressing room but Lily's body is not there and it never was? Or was it? So who did she stab? She has stabbed herself, is what happened.

Can I, okay, as someone who's never stabbed themselves it seems like a pretty little stab maybe she punctures an organ or something I don't know but she pulls out she's like

it's deep but it's little no that shard of glass was like an inch wide I don't know but also there's so much someone was like an inch

like I feel like you could people get stabbed a lot of times and they're okay according i don't mean to challenge but i'm like i don't think but i think you're assuming that she's like a reliable narrator in this moment i don't think we know necessarily how much because she breaks so much glass and it's like gone the next time she comes back and so i don't think we know exactly how deep the injury is. And also the costume itself

is so lush and there's so much tulle. T-U-L-L-E. Just in case you thought it was the other kind of tulle. It also looks like gauze. Good thing her costume is made of gauze to absorb all the blood. Just in case you stab yourself?

Is this common? And also we see in the previous scene that she goes to see Beth in the hospital and Beth stabs herself but it's kind of clear that that isn't actually what happens or is it?

But like, it's maybe, it's like, there's a million, she is maybe. She looks at Beth stabbing herself and then she turns back

and it's like suddenly her face stabbing her, Nina's face stabbing Nina. So she could have been stabbing herself for several hours before this happens and it's like

no one caught this? Even at the end when Vincent Castle-Cassell is looking over and is like you were so great and then everyone's like oh

and she's covered in blood. Right. How does no one notice for like two minutes? I get why the audience doesn't notice because she's really far away. But everyone's congratulating her for like 45 seconds before they're like, oh, she's dead. She can't hear us. Right.

Which is how the movie ends. So Lily, sorry, Nina has apparently stabbed herself and then she dies at the end of the performance. And that's the end of the movie. Yeah. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate.

My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I felt too seen. Dragged. I'm N.K., and this is Basket Case.

So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying, and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with.

But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life

in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent

revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current, available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, let's talk about it. Oh boy. There's a lot to talk about with this movie.

I'm going to cut this movie a lot of slack for a movie that we have to say right at the top. It was directed by Darren Aronofsky. As most people know, it was written by three men who aren't Darren Aronofsky, which is somehow miraculous that they managed to... Is he here? Is he... Darren? Darren. I did invite him. Darren? I just tweeted, Darren Aronofsky, please come. I do hope you're wearing a scarf. Does he live in New York? Do you know about the scarf thing? Yeah, he lives in New York. Do you know about the scarf thing? Yeah, he lives in New York. Do you know about the scarf thing? No.

Okay, let me get into it. No, yeah, unpack that. My favorite thing about Darren Aronofsky is that he loves wearing scarves. Oh, yeah. And he's rarely spotted without a scarf. And they're always just so ostentatiously large. And I think it was at Huffington Post, a reporter asked him,

why do you always wear scarves? And he was like, the weakness of my body is my throat. Which, you know? Huh? What a way to say a thing is all I'm going to say about that. That's also, like,

something anyone could say, but he says as if it's specific to him. Wait, is he saying he's like... I love it, I love it. You know how someone's like, oh, I don't like my, you know, arms. Like, is he insecure about it, or is he saying, like,

someone might slash my throat and I have to cover it up? You know, what if that's it? What if he's like, the knives are out. I have to keep her buttoned up. My favorite Aronofsky fact is that Jennifer Lawrence broke up with him because he wouldn't shut up about Mother's reviews. He's just a fragile person.

Therefore, all the scarves. Mother! Mother! Mother! Mother! Mother! Mother! Mother!

Mother! Mother! Mother! Mother! Mother! Mother! Lowercase, all Mother, too. That's important.

Wow, Mother, what a moment. Yeah, okay, so where should we start? There's a lot of ways we can start. I mean, I think that one of the big things for us to talk about is, I feel like something where this movie really is cool and succeeds is in kind of encompassing a lot of different ways

where it seems like Nina's downfall and like some of the specifics of this kind of miss but Nina's downfall seems to be this big pile up of expectations of women where she's trying to be everything at once and there's no way anyone can be everything at once and when she tries to be the second she succeeds, she dies. So, I mean, like, there's so much being asked of her, and I feel like him choosing ballet is, like, very deliberate in doing so because it's so over the top of those expectations where her body has to be a very particular way, and we see, you know, she has an eating disorder,

and she has to, like, suffer to look a certain way. And her director is demanding the Madonna whore complex from her. Where you have to be a virgin, but you also have to be a slut. And if she isn't both at once, he's mad at her and he retaliates against her. And she's trying to be all these things at once while also being told by everyone around her like if she has a thought or like any sort of like problem or mental illness of her own there's no time for it and she can't deal with it and it just like every single thing piles up on her to the point where her like what happens to her makes sense or that's how I... I'm just like, you know,

justice for Nina. But she was perfect. Right. So, was it worth it? No, I'm kidding. She was really good. So, for me, okay, Darren Aronofsky, he loves an allegory. We've all seen Mother!

No, we haven't! It's the most popular movie. No. And I think he handles metaphor better in Black Swan. But I feel like, right, the narrative is sort of like an allegory or metaphor for a woman's role in society. And the expectation to be a certain way and to be perfect and to be striving for that perfection and also coming up against different things like sexual predators and just this sort of different relationship dynamics that are in some ways like women competing against each other

and like the idea of aging in general. Right. It's huge here. Yes. So all these different things that the movie handles well. Watch your words. Be very careful. Okay, my whole thing is that I think one of the reasons

this is so challenging for me, this movie, to talk about, like, yes, it addresses a lot of things. And you could argue that like think one of the reasons this is so challenging for me this movie to to talk about like yes it addresses a lot of things and you could argue that like the ballet company is sort of like a microcosm of the patriarchy and all this stuff like that but the again the movie makes me feel horrible so while it's like yes addressing things and it's like, here's how society be. There's this, I don't know. It's just like there's so few, like, I don't feel empowered by this movie.

And that's not the intention. It's not the intention, but I'm just like, where are all the movies that, like, I can feel empowered by? There's others. Where are the romps I know so like I'm coming at it with like this bias of like it makes me feel bad and I don't like it but there's value to it and I'm gonna try to I'm gonna check

my feelings anyway okay let's move on okay I don't know Hunter is there any particular theme this movie addresses that stands out to you especially? Yeah, the thing that I always come back to is this idea of Nina being a child.

She lives with her mother on the Upper West Side, which is, you know, whatever. But even, I feel like it's kind of like one of the bigger reveals in the movie is when she's masturbating and then you, it pans out and you see how pink her bedroom is. It's like she sleeps with stuffed animals. She everything like she has like a music box that her like mom tucks her in at night and all of this stuff that it's like a woman has raised her to be sort of infantile in a way

to be like molded by men. But at the same time, the men in her life, the man in her life is like, that's not what I want you to be. He's, like, asking her to present differently, to be more salacious and sexy and sexual, and it's funny because a lot of, like, I was reading about this today that Natalie Portman, like, Darren Aronofsky was, like, trying to figure out who could be the Lily character, who could look enough like Natalie Portman for it to be, like, a convincing double, but it's not just her playing this other part and it's like some of the some of the ways the camera shoots Mila Kunis and Natalie Portman it's like identical and you get the sense that

like these are sort of like one can't exist without the other Harry Potter um wow so sorry no keep going but Give her a go. That's like the second Harry Potter reference I've made today. Like, I'm done. Cut the cameras. Dead ass. Sorry. But I think like that sort of duality is really interesting.

And I think the way that visually they sort of exploit their likeness is really cool. And also just that like, even there's something about Natalie's performance in this movie, although I do think she should have won her Oscar for Jackie, but thank you. Controversial. That's allyship right there. My mom feels the same way.

Wow. Okay. No, I mean that in a good way. Thank you. The way that like Natalie Portman changes her voice throughout the movie I think is really cool. In the scenes with her mom, she's like,

I just want to dance. And then, sorry about that. And then later she's like, I'm the swan queen. And it's like, okay. Okay, raise your voice. That stuff I think is

really cool. Like how she is playing with just like femininity and like womanhood in terms of aging. Yeah. I mean I like, one of the things that I like didn't, I definitely didn't catch in the first view because in the first view I'm like, this is good mental health and how I should act.

But the you know, this is good mental health and how I should act. But the, you know, media is complicated. But you were like, what a romp. I'm like, wow. Can't wait to go to a ballet rehearsal tomorrow. But like the idea of, like Lily's character is the only person in the entire movie who ever calls out Tomas' behavior for what it is,

which is creepy, manipulative, predatory. She's the only person that ever explicitly says what he's doing is wrong, and it's very obvious that it's wrong. And the fact that that is kind of twisted, and then we see his character, Lily warns her, and there's a lot of warnings for nina that kind of goes unheeded in this movie but like lily warns her oh he called

winona rider little princess he'll be calling you little princess any day now and natalie portman is like no i'm not like the other girls i'm different and mila Kunis is like, okay. She's like, here, have an ecstasy. And then, right. And then like 24 seconds before Natalie Portman dies, he calls her little princess. And so you see that the only like male relationship that Nina ever has in this entire movie is not about her at all.

Like it's just about his perception of what a woman and like what the woman he needs to do this job should be and not who the person actually is because he just conflates Winona Ryder with Natalie Portman and when Winona Ryder turned 38 he's like okay you have to walk in front of a car now. I need a quote unquote 20 year old, you know, like it's, it's very clear where he's coming from. And so I don't know. Yeah.

I just, I think this movie is well done. But with that, I think something that there's like a hint in the movie that Lily is sleeping with Toma. There's one part where she's like, oh, I ran into him this morning. And it's like, it's six o'clock. What time was this morning? Right, yeah.

And then also Nina has a hallucination where Tomas, she's walking in on them having sex, but then he turns into the Rothbart. Thank you. It's almost like, the thing I don't like about this movie is that it's such a, like, strict binary. Like, Nina, goddess, Lily, whore. But I think in a different way, it's like, Lily doesn't believe the things Tomas says about any of them.

She understands inherently that, like, she's succeeding for reasons that don't have anything to do with her. Because, like, he finds her sufficiently fuckable. And that's something that, something that Nina never understands. She believes everything that everyone tells her and tries to meet every standard of perfection, and that is why she dies, but also why she was a great ballerina. So, you know, what are you going to do?

Yeah, like, in terms of survival, this movie comes down firmly like, you gotta be whore to live. Like, it pretty much... But, like, only exactly when a man wants to have sex with you, and then the rest of the time it's like... Well, I mean, it's just like Lily's the only one who sees through his act and is able to thrive above it

because she sees it for what it is. She kind of, I guess, meets him on his terms when she feels like she needs to, and then when she doesn't, she's like, yeah, he's a fucking like idiot. Like I'm going to do an ecstasy. I don't care. Where like, you know, like Nina's character is the like the virginal, you know, she still is with her mom.

And that's a whole other discussion. And so this is like her first male relationship and so she's entering it from this kind of like disney princess like oh this is he cares about me he must that this is everything that i've been taught that this will be and that like sort of leads to her downfall is her thinking that he would genuinely care about her what i like is that at the end, she hears that he really never cared about her the whole time when he calls her little princess. But by that point, she doesn't care because she has succeeded in the way that she wanted to succeed, partially for her. And then when you see her make eye contact with Barbara Hershey, I'm like, and I guess for her weird mom. And so it is like as devastating as it is that she dies at the end, you know that at least she has succeeded on her own terms.

And the only way that she could succeed on her own terms by this movie's logic is to collapse under all the pressure she's been under the whole time. Yeah. Bummer. Bummer. whole time yeah bummer bummer Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered there are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I felt too seen. Dragged. I'm NK, um, dragged. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me?

Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope,

the society that created the conditions in the first place But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you, and it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S.

president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current.

Available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Can we talk about her and her mom a little bit? Yeah. Because I think that that is a really interesting dynamic. I mean, you don't get to see a ton of in-depth mother-daughter relationships on screen really at all.

And so when you get one, you're like, I hope it's really fucked up. I hope it's unhealthy and I can't learn anything from it. That said, first of all, the real star of the mother-daughter dynamic in this movie, I feel, is that cake that she gets. Okay.

I disagree, but I like that. Oh, I like that cake. That's when Barbara Hershey gets the two of them a sheet cake. So, Nina's mom gets Nina and her, the only people who live in that house, a gigantic, like, star market sheet cake

when Nina, okay, regional reference wrong. But they get her a huge sheet cake when she gets the part of a swan queen. And then Nina's like as we know everyone in this household is anorexic and Nina's mom says well fine I'll throw it away and like

dramatically is about to whisk this $14 cake into the trash and like that's the first gaslight we see of this relationship but I mean I think that like it it would be kind of an easy read of this relationship because it's later revealed that Nina's mom was also invested in being a ballerina but had to drop out of being involved in ballet

when she got pregnant with Nina therefore some very specific inherited trauma of I can't be ballerina, so you am ballerina. And we don't deal with mental illness. We don't talk about it. Yeah, her solution is stay in your room until you feel better. And then she's like, let me cut your nails, too. And yeah. With scissors, again. With whatever's around and I thought and it's like

I feel like I originally when I was re-watching this I'm like oh I hope she's just not reduced to I'm like a jealous stage mom but I feel like the movie does do a little more

than that where it is clear that she resents her daughter for taking quote unquote and this is like another commentary I feel like,

on the way the movie deals with aging and how women are treated in this specific world. But when you're a woman who's pregnant, you're not useful to ballet, and so you're taken out. And she resents her daughter instead of the system that creates that narrative. Right. And then from there, what I like is,

it would be easy to be like, why is Nina still there? She's making her own living. She's a ballerina. Why wouldn't she stay? But we learned because of Nina's past mental health problems, which is alluded to

through the scratching and all these other indicators, that on top of being stage mom and resentful, she's also trying to be a good mom by knowing that her daughter has had these mental health breaks before and feeling like someone needs to keep an eye on her.

And so I was worried on the rewatch that there would be no grounded reason for Nina to stay and no grounded reason for the mom to want to keep her there, but I feel like that is kind of provided. She wants to protect her daughter, but the way she protects her makes it more likely for her to have a mental health break again. Which, I don't know, someone should call my mom about that.

We don't know. I love how much you're interrogating that specific choice because I was like, oh, it's New York. I bet it's too expensive for her to live anywhere else. But no, all of that is absolutely true too. So your favorite set piece between them was the cake.

My favorite is when Nina walks in. It's like sort of an open like living area where Nina practices ballet and then her mom has just like all these portraits that she's painted of Nina.

They're all so ugly. Oh, man. And all in different styles too. You of Nina, they're all so ugly. Oh, man. They're bad. And all in different styles, too. You're like, did she take a class? Like, what did she do? And at one point, the mom, she like walks in on her mom just like sobbing and like painting a photo of her. And it's like, what?

Okay. And then later, whenever she's like having another hallucination, she sees all like these images of herself, like done in post, sobbing too, screaming at her, and it's like, what? If my mom painted anything, I'd be like, stop. I don't know who it's of no more. But I do think that that's one of the most interesting frictions in the movies between Nina and her mom,

because later she says, whenever her mom brings up, oh, I could have been a ballerina, I as I could be good as good as you are but I got pregnant and then under her breath Nina's like okay but you never made it out of the core and she's like and you were 28 because 28 is so old 20 year old Nina is like, oh my God. Right. And we're like, okay, Natalie Portman, sure. I don't know. I feel like, and maybe this is just me, but I felt like

the mother character was characterized as being like pretty cartoony, like overbearing mom. I know. I know. She is,

but there also, you have the reasons, like you have the reasons and you also have the unreliable, like, I guess like one of the things with this movie is you can justify almost anything that happens in the movie of like, well, Nina is an unreliable narrator. So it makes sense.

Right. Like you don't like the way she's seeing every character is a little bit heightened. I guess you're supposed to assume, to what is actually happening. True. And that's the case for all of the female relationships in this movie because on one hand it might just be that Lily is trying to reach out and be like, hey, I want to be your friend.

You seem cool. Let's hang out. But through Nina's kind of unraveling lens, she thinks that Lily's trying to steal her part and replace her and all this stuff. And it's still never quite clear to me what is true there and what isn't. It's not clear.

Right. What does everyone think? Okay. Hunter, what do you think Lilyly's trying to do what's her goal watch i feel like she was just like being nice but she didn't have any other friends because she was also so cool with like the girls in the core that were like in the very first scene like mean to nina and nina was like she was just like veronica or whatever yeah yeah you're a bitch and you're like why is she always staring at me?

There's so many scenes, even at that gallow. Like, Nina's in the bathroom, Lily comes in, and she slips off her underpants. Why does she do that? Because she's about to fuck that guy. Oh.

Caitlin. Wait, what guy? I missed this. Oh, wait. Oh, wait. Sebastian Stan is in this movie? Oh, yeah. But that was not Sebastian Stan in that scene. That was a different sexual partner.

But anyone could be Sebastian Stan, really. Like, every time Sebastian Stan's on screen, I'm like, is that who that is? Like, I've never fully identified who that is. Wait, did you watch Gossip Girl? Did you watch Gossip Girl when you were younger? I did. Yeah, I did watch Gossip Girl. And I still don't identified who that is. Wait, did you watch Gossip Girl? Did you watch Gossip Girl when you were younger? I did. Yeah, I did watch Gossip Girl, and I still don't know who he is.

Carter Beeson. I've seen Sebastian Stan in probably the majority of his projects, and every time he shows up, I'm like, who? Like, that's, his name is what? And Caitlin texted me today like, oh, wow, did you spot sebastian stan because

i tanya's my favorite movie and i was like i have no fucking clue who that man is there sebastian stan could be in the audience right now and i could push him on my way to the bathroom i have no idea who he is are here they're in the back. They're friends. They're somewhere. Who is Sebastian Stan? I'm sorry. But then, okay, so we've got that.

We have the mother-daughter relationship. We have Nina and Lily and then we have the Nina and Beth relationship and all of these relationships are poised as being antagonistic

but like you said, can we write that off as Nina being an unreliable narrator or is this movie written by men or i don't know yeah i do think beth is pissed like come on yeah also i like this sort of meta idea that if this movie were made like 20 years earlier winona rider would be like in the nina role right? That's such a Natalie Portman thing. But I love that, like, what does she say whenever they're at the gallop?

Like, everyone else is gone. Beth is like, he always said you were so frigid. Yeah, right. And Nina's like, what? He didn't say that about me. It's like, okay. But then, okay, so in that, okay, this relationship, sorry, let me find this in my copious notes here. Well, Beth is, I feel like Beth and Nina's mom are used as the, like, they're both used in a way to comment on how age is perceived in the ballet world. And in this movie, the ballet, is supposed to be the world. So in Nina's mom's case, she became pregnant

and that's what halted her career. And then in Winona Ryder's case, she became 35 and that's what halted her career. And so they're both kind of being used to comment on the same issue in a different way. And I think also because Beth doesn't have a family or doesn't have kids and she's like still sort of sleeping with Toma, it's like, well, there's literally

nothing for you to do. Like there's, we can't even like keep you around. We have to literally create the circumstance for you to like be pushed out. Yeah. That was like the one, I think, relationship in the movie with Nina that I didn't get everything out of that I kind of wanted to.

That was the one relationship that I left being like, I like Beth was a little under like underserved right because like kind of the beat by beat situation with her story is that before we even see her on screen there are various characters being like oh she's going through menopause and yeah my grandma's a good dancer too like they're talking shit on her for her aging and Nina defends her. She's 38, yeah. And then we see her trashing her dressing room presumably right after she's been told

that she has to retire. And then we see her drunk at the gala and she calls Nina a whore and she's like, you sucked his dick or whatever. And Nina's like, not all of us have to implying that Beth did have to so she had been defending her and now she's like well you're the whore right and that's like the kind of like I felt like the way that Beth acted in that scene that was like one of the moments where I'm like Beth more than anyone in this entire gala? Like, Beth, more than anyone here,

knows what Tomas' game is. So why would she be victimizing a young woman when she knows who the person doing it is? Like, that was like one of the writing moments where I was a little bit confused. She's mad at Nina for for replacing her quote-unquote when she should be mad at tomah and she's been there long enough that i feel like she would know who to be mad at so that was like sure but yeah she's not a perfect person like no and she's drunk right but there's also another key moment that is after beth trashes her room, Nina goes in and starts like picking at her things.

Like she takes her lipstick and like her nail file and her earrings. Or were those her earrings? Yeah. And I think that is like, it adds another layer of complexity that sort of Nina's trying on this persona. I think sort of subconsciously she wants to be, or at least have Beth's status,

but doesn't understand how to use it or what it means. And that's why she's like well not all of us have to and Beth's like bitch yes you do and I like that it's just another example of Nina like having no clue what she's actually doing or how to meet the expectations of like a man that

is awful and that's like kind of ultimately what the Beth character is is like narratively she's supposed to be like a warning to Nina of like, if you're not careful and if you don't treat yourself specifically and not the craft you're in carefully, you will end up like this. If you trust Tomas,

this is where you'll end up. And she kind of ignores that and blames Beth versus this, like the system that made Beth the way she was. And then Nina dies ten years earlier than Beth does. I think Nina is a snob though because of how she's raised by her mom.

She's been raised to look down upon ballerinas like Beth who are getting older but who also didn't exist purely on talent the way that she thinks that she has which we don't know if she i mean it's like it's it's confusing um there's a quick so one of the i think the big things to talk about here that i just want to get out while we have time is the mental health themes going on here um because there's a lot going on, and I was trying to do

some research into, like, how was it received at the time versus now, and it's kind of all over the place. So my view of this movie's treatment of mental health has changed as well, but at the time and sort of into the current day, that being now. What? I'm sorry. Please explain. I'm sorry. I have to pee. It's kind of all over the place, and it seems like that is kind of intentionally done. So the symptoms that we see Nina display

are never explicitly named as any specific mental health issue, which I usually feel is a good thing, because when you see a movie say, this is bipolar disorder, this is schizophrenia, this is whatever, generally what they're portraying is not 100% accurate, and then creates

a stigma against that condition that isn't even based in fact. And usually it conflates it with violent behavior, or does something to demonize it. So that is one thing that this movie conflates it like with violent behavior or does something to demonize it. So that is one thing that this movie conflates mental illness in a general sense with violence. Where like when Nina, like the more Nina descends into mental illness, the more violent we see her become towards other people and or herself. Or does it?

Like we don't know. Violence towards something. It's like mental illness and violence are treated kind of as one and the same as it gets worse. Yeah. But it's not treated as one thing, which is positive. So I was looking up

how have mental health organizations treated this movie, and I found a couple things. The first being from the Psychological Care and Healing Center, and they said, quote, while the movie does an excellent job of portraying the terror related to psychosis, there is a large amount of artistic license taken by the movie. There are simply too many psychological issues going on with Nina. She shows elements of an anxiety disorder with obsessive-compulsive

behaviors. She also manifests self-injurious behavior and some sides of an eating disorder. She dabbles with substance abuse. She has psychotic breaks, if not outright psychosis. A case could also be made for a personality disorder. It is highly unlikely that all of these elements could coexist in one person, especially someone performing as a ballerina at such a high level. So basically all of that to say, the writers and directors of this movie are taking kind of like a general sampler platter of mental illness and taking appetizers as needed to serve the narrative. Right.

Which I mean, it's complicated, but as long as they don't name as long as they're not demonizing a specific mental illness I am more able to like understand why they're doing it and there's also been there were also like in 2010 some people

like why don't we see Nina getting help I'm like that's a different movie that's just who's going to get Nina help in this movie? Right, her support network. Veronica? No. Right, everyone around her,

again, with the whole unreliable narrator thing, it's either people who are gaslighting her or not. I mean, with Lily, is she emotionally manipulating her, or is she just trying to be a friend? And we don't know, because...

I'm with Hunter there. I think she's trying to be a friend. I think she's trying to be a friend, but I think she's also, like, you know, has her own set of issues. Sure. And is, like, not really able. But at the same time, this all,

I think the fact that this is so specifically limited to the ballet world, and, like the fact that this is so specifically limited to the ballet world and like we don't really get a chance to see Nina outside of this context so it's like these are her co-workers they don't really know what goes on with her outside of rehearsal and I think that sort of has an effect too that this girl's like trying to be this girl meaning Lily's like trying to be her friend like friendly but like not a close friend, like friend-ly, but not a close friend to really engage. She does slip an ecstasy into her drink. Or does she? I was going to say, she's like, kiss Sebastian Stan.

Or does she? Who could Sebastian Stan be? We don't know. It's all very unclear what goes on with Nina and Lily, and that leads all the way up to the queer baiting of a generation yeah which I was very baited by I was like I was the worm was there I was like how like I the bait was there I took the bait whoop I was like yes this is the best thing that's ever happened.

I remember that scene. I feel like for every generation, there's a scene that you're like, ooh. For a couple years before us, mine was Mulholland Drive. Anyone? Some murmuring in the crowd. When Mila Kunis looks up from eating out Natalie Portman, we're like, oh! It's just like... It's very...

And it still works for me to this day. I'm like, I know we're not supposed to do this, but like, wow! It's very exciting. What were we saying about queerbaiting? It doesn't... Okay. No, this is what we were saying.

Okay. The issue with this scene is that we see it and we're like, wow, wow, wow. You know, this is... I need to call my boyfriend and tell him something that's going on with me. But the issue is that this scene, canonically,

does not happen. That we know of. But we're led to believe, I want to believe it happens, but it seems like it doesn't happen, and that's where the baiting comes in. If we're to believe Mila Kunis' character, it does not happen. Right. And she's the more reliable of the two characters.

Or is she? You're right. They fucked. I feel better. I was going to say, I think the movie itself, whenever Nina goes back to the apartment, we only see her talking to her mom, and her mom does not even acknowledge that there's someone else there. That's true.

And the Lily character walks in and then hides, like goes into Nina's room. You know, I think that's just like further evidence that Lily is right. Yeah. I kind of feel like they kind of do a little M. Night Shyamalan on you. They're like, oh, Bruce Willis never does talk directly to anybody, does he? Like, yeah, like Lily never

directly speaks to I mean, I guess we don't know why Nina's mom went to the door. Maybe it was like a postmate. No, she's like, where have you been? You have a thing tomorrow.

Oh, I think that season, that moment, Lily does show up. Yes, but when she comes in. But when she comes in. When Nina comes home. She does not. Like, she's not actually there.

Her mom's like, okay. This is a figment of imagination. Where were you? And she's like, Tom and Jerry. She's not like, who's this other lady? She doesn't say that because Lily, I guess, is not there. Not there.

Okay. Macavity is not there. I'm sorry. No, don't apologize. I just, like that scene very clearly is baity and not canon, but I want it to be canon so hard. I hit my tooth on the mic. Yeah, so that whole scene is very kind of bizarre in the way that I feel like

it's just one of those moments of, like, Aronofsky's trying to have it always of like he wants to have the trailer moment of Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis are kissing you're gonna want to see this movie it's gonna make a lot of money you know and like don't think too hard about the themes like give me $11 like

and in that way I think it succeeded because that's what got me there and but I mean those sort of baiting scenes are rooted in And in that way, I think it succeeded, because that's what got me there. But, I mean, those sort of baiting scenes are rooted in history of scenes that depict queerness, but then are later majorly backpedaled on of like, well, that didn't actually happen, or like some other way of negating the actual scene that was heavily marketed as a big part of the movie. So that's a bummer. There's also that

quick moment where Lily, when they're at the club with Sebastian Stan and some other guy, she's like, hey, these guys are gay lovers. And they're like, what? And they kind of breeze past it. So at least you don't have these straight guys being like, oh? And they kind of breeze past it.

So at least you don't have, like, these straight guys being like, oh, we're not gay. But that's just because we're led to believe that Natalie Portman is screaming in this bar, like, to everybody. Just like, hi, kiss me, kiss me. You're gay. Kiss me. Like, she's just, like, all over. I don't know what's supposed to be happening i don't know um can we talk about that scene oh and then uh the other

like then what happens is um sebastian sand says oh i've never been to the ballet and then lily goes well then you're definitely not gay and's like, why is this scene in the movie? Can we talk about the predatory relationship between Thomas and Nina? Yeah. Because this is another part of the movie that I really struggle with. Because on one hand, it's depicting a predatory situation where he has the power he's making he's

calling the shots he is who determines who gets certain roles and she is kind of like powerless to she has to kind of succumb to his authority and power and he manipulates her based on this power dynamic or this power imbalance. But what I don't like to see necessarily, even though it might be realistic, is that she is punished at the end and he is not. She is punished because she is dead and he thrives. And that, again, might be a realistic depiction of how these predatory relationships

often go, but it's just another reason this movie really bums me out. I think that misogyny is a bummer. Go on. Men abusing power is for sure a bummer

but it happens that's why we're sitting here I don't know I agree with you and I don't think that there's really an empowering message to take away from this movie but I also don't think that's what it's

trying to do I feel like it's more trying to demonstrate if you fold to every pressure being forced on you by whatever system you're existing in it will crush you and so then you have to leave the theater being like well what are my other options

you know like I just I felt like and some of the criticism I was reading that was like kind of when it was coming out 10 years ago was that it was weirdly revolutionary in 2010 to see a man that you knew abusing you that was like in your workplace where so often, and I feel like, um, something that came out around the same time was like girl with a dragon tattoo, I think came out a year later where you see a very clear sexual predator who's a total stranger. And I feel like that is mostly the way that predators are portrayed in fiction is like a sexual predator is someone you don't know. A sexual predator is someone who sneaks up on you and like you won't, there's no way to prepare for it. There's no way to recognize

it in the world that you live in and Black Swan very clearly places it like this is a person she knows. This is a person who has a clear motive for like weaponizing his power against her and it's not comfortable to see but it is realistic

and I feel like you know you see it dealt with by a number of different women you see that nina is not fully prepared on how to deal with it because he is the patriarch in this situation and she as far as we know doesn't have any other relationships to compare it with we see that see that Lily sees it and has seen it before and is like, this is bullshit. I'm not going to deal with this beyond what I have to. And I don't know. I mean, I think it's an uncomfortable portrayal,

but it feels like realistic, if a little melodramatic at moments, to like things that exist. And I appreciate it on that level sure I mean yeah as much as it's like demonstrating like the societal pressures that are happening here with with misogyny I think it's also Nina has been raised in this culture that makes her want to please him and want to bend herself and fit to to fit his idea that oh the black swan needs to be like like black and white soan need to be one person.

It's like, no, they don't though. Like this is just what he has decided. And so she is like working her very hardest to meet that, you know, made up expectation. And also something that I was reading just today was that at the time it

came out, Vincent Cassell was asked, like, do you think that he's like trying to get laid? And even though that we're talking? And even though we're talking about this character now, the way it has evolved in the 10 years since the movie came out is so

astonishing. We are able to think about, okay, well, he is obviously in power. She lives in this kind of culture. We live in a society, but she lives in the core. But he was asked, oh, do you think that he's like trying to get laid or what do you think it is and he's like no i think it's like more of like an artistic calculus on his part

he doesn't really care about her he just like wants this to happen right but i think it is like such a warped idea of art and artists and also power that we can see much more clearly now than obviously when this movie came out. That's something that I came up against also in the way that Aronofsky was giving interviews around this time too of it seems like at least at this time and we don't know how he feels

in the age of mother. Like we don't know how he's evolved, how his scarves, the colors have maybe changed. We don't know. he's evolved, how his scarves, the colors have maybe changed. We don't know. You know, Jennifer Lawrence married a man named Cook Maroney. You know, anything could happen in this world.

A lot of Cook Maroney heads, fine. He's at the show. Cook is here. Did we invite Cook Maroney to the show? But no, the way that Aronofsky talked about it at the time was very much like it it almost felt like his thesis in some way it was criticism something we've things we've been talking about but it was also that by his vision that you couldn't have art without some sort of mental you know like something happening. Like a mental compromise? Yeah, exactly.

Like you can't have great art without a mental compromise. And that was sort of the way he was giving interviews at this time. And something, like there were, there's a really good essay that came out about this from lessons from the screenplay that I really love and it came out a couple of years ago, but it kind of compares the Black Swan narrative directly against Whiplash,

which came out a couple of years after, I think, that compares on a gender basis. Like, both of these movies are about a quest by a protagonist for artistic greatness. And in both of these movies, there is a male mentor who is torturing the protagonist to become great. And the way it plays out in both movies, for better or worse, is very different. And I feel like the thing that Black Swan succeeds in is portraying this male mentor as like a bad and toxic influence of like he is torturing them.

He is abusing them. it's very clear what he's doing and it results in great art but like great personal sacrifice where in whiplash if you've seen it which is like i mean whatever uh do i don't care about miles teller um you know he Miles Teller. He bothers me to look at. I don't like looking at Miles Teller. And then if you read an interview, you're like, I'm justified. He's an annoying person. But in Whiplash, he plays a jazz drummer.

He's trying to become great. And I was going to say J.J. Abrams, but I mean the other guy. Oh no, what's his name? Oh my God. J.K. Simmons. Yes, J.K. Simmons, not J.J. Abrams. J.J. Abrams, like you said.

I won't be able to come up with it. J.K. Simmons is screaming at him the whole movie, but the climaxes of the movies are very different where Natalie Portman's character achieves greatness and dies

because of all the expectations that are very gendered being placed upon her. And then in the other case, you end up kind of receiving the J.K. Simmons character as, well, yeah, he threw shit at this person. He was violently abusive towards this person but it resulted in this great performance and he lived so uh they're probably friends today and so the man gets to live but also has the legacy of this toxic influence whereas the woman realizes what the toxic influence was but she dies and so there's like i don't i don't know

i don't know i like black swan i mean another part of it and i think this just has to do with like the very complicated nature of being the victim of a predator which is you like you see that scene so she gets assaulted many times in this movie by him yeah there's the one scene in particular where he's like you're no one wants to fuck you let me teach you how to seduce and then there's this really uncomfortable moment where you know he's forcing himself on her he's groping her she is not really resisting and it and it probably is because she's really confused and uncomfortable and she doesn't know how to respond and uh and he's the only person who has the power over what her dream is right yeah and then the aftermath of that is that and this is a little unclear but the narrative frames it as though she she likes

him because she's defending him in front of lily because she's like oh you're hot for teacher and she's like you don't know him and again that's just maybe part of the complicated nature of that you know dynamic but i can't help but think of mother where in that movie which we covered it go back and listen to the episode if you want but um there's a moment in that movie where it starts out a sexual assault and then becomes a consensual sex scene and i can't help but to wonder if because they're both Aronofsky movies if he thinks that might be how sex goes sometimes

I mean what I can say for sure with Aronofsky is that he thinks a scarf keeps his head on his body that's all I can say for a hundred percent it's like that what was that scary story to tell in the dark story? That if he took his scarf off, his head would fall off.

He for sure 100% believes that. We have no reason to believe he doesn't believe that. There's been no canonical reason to believe that. He doesn't think that. It's very complicated and i think that because this movie is directed by a man who doesn't necessarily have the best track record for certain things and then written by several men i don't know i just i i can't trust i i just i i disagree on the grounds that we know that this is Nina's first experience with a romantic relationship at all.

And just based on my first romantic experience and possibly other people's, I don't know. But the first time you assume the best of someone, you're going to make a lot of mistakes. And Nina is doing this at a much later age 20 um than than a lot of other people do but I I feel like I I thought that her willingness to forgive him was both a reflection of like he is the gatekeeper to my dreams but also that the fact that she's been so protected and she's been so naive and she doesn't have anything to compare it to.

Her mom tucks her into bed at night. She has no understanding of how a human, like how a real adult relationship of any kind, like relationship that's romantic or platonic should or would look. He's like a prince. Yeah, and I think that's when the Swan Lake metaphor becomes

more meta to the story, is that she really does cast herself as, in such a didactic way, and that is ultimately what is her undoing. Someone went, oh! I love it. I love it. The point is,

this movie is great. We're running out of time. Do we have a single moment for audience feedback? Yeah, a little tiny bit. Let's say two. Oh, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh yeah, we've got a mic.

If you have a question or comment, make it as quick as possible. We only have time for like... Oh, here comes someone. Oh, no, no, no. Come on up. She's here. Hello.

What's your name? Hi, I'm Kristen. Hi, Kristen. Hi. First off, I just wanted to say that Alfred Molina would have made a much better Thomas. Yes, I agree. Yes.

We'd be like, that's why she likes him. Right. And I just wanted to comment real quick to go back to Nina's voice real quick for a little context corner. Oh, sure. I read somewhere that apparently Natalie Portman, when she was starting out

or was getting acting lessons and stuff, she had been told that her voice sounded too girlish for babies, and she had to do vocal exercises to make it sound more adult and more woman-like. But apparently for this film, she was told to throw that at the door. It's very funny the way you hear her read certain lines, like, if that other girl had barged in, or just little line reads like that, that just show, like, that is not the way a grown-ass woman like speaks to

her mother or like talks about other women you know supposedly but I just wanted to mention that real quick it's a very nice subtle thing that she does with her performance just to sound like this is a little girl or like you know this is like not a normal woman so I just wanted to mention that just yeah they're definitely like certain acting choices and certain wardrobe choices that help enhance the theme of the movie. And Natalie won for her best actress Oscar for this. She was great. Definitely.

I also read, according to Wikipedia, both Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis had to work out five hours a day in preparation for this role. And they both lost a ton of weight. A ton of weight. Yeah. Scary.

Let's not talk about it further. Right. But thank you so much. Yeah, thank you, Kristen. Thanks. Hi. Hello. What's your name?

My name's Sam. Hi. Long-time listener, first-time caller. My question to you is, does it pass the reverse Bechdel test, which I don't think it does at all. No. There's barely any guys.

There's like three guys. I mean, it's a very female-driven story with only one main male character. The rest are pretty ancillary. It definitely passes the Bechdel test. Yeah, for sure. It passes between several different combinations of characters. But yeah, I don't think it... Men don't speak to each other in this movie?

I don't think. So that's a win. They don't at all. That's text. That's feminist text. I don't think a lot of movies, like, I don't think, I can't think of any movie that does do that. Right. We've encountered a few, but they are so rare. So very rare.

Too rare, some would say. Yeah. And the things that they're mostly talking about are female ambition, their relationships with each other, like their relationship to reality, a genderless concept. You know, there's a lot of things that women are talking about. And ballet also, obviously. A cake? A cake.

A cake. I'll throw it away if you don't want it. Right? I love that scene so much. I think Alfred Molina should have been the cake. I love it. With his octo hands coming out. Alfred Molina should have been the cake. I love it. With his octo hands coming out. Alfred Molina should have been the cake.

Great. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Sam. Yes. Hi. Hi. My name is Petra, a huge fan of the pod. Hi.

So I kind of wanted to stir the pot a little bit between Jamie and Caitlin and bring it back to the conversation about the sexual predatory behavior that was going on in the movie. So I watched this last night and just thinking about it in the context of the Harvey Weinstein trials, I kind of was able to see this dynamic between Nina and Tomá. And it seemed like Darren Aronofsky was trying to have her flip the situation on its head and kind of take control of it. And I was just kind of wondering what you guys thought and the way that those predatory relationships are seen in modern day.

I think, I mean, that's a great question. I can't wait to argue about it. I mean, I think that there is a lot, it maybe doesn't go as far as it should in 2010, maybe. But in reading the backlog of criticism about this, there were a lot of people who compared the Tomas character to a Roman Polanski-type character of, like, here is a man who creates great art,

depending on how you film art. But, like, here's a man who creates well-regarded art who, in the creation of great art, depending on how you film art. But here's a man who creates well-regarded art, who in the creation of this art, women are brutalized and punished. And many considered Aronofsky at the time to be making some sort of comment on this, of asking that question, is this art that this abusive man creates

worth the consequence? then clearly no of course i mean we know that right did us know did seriously a man just say no i they're okay okay okay but like we get it we know uh we've been here for four years um thank you though thank you for telling us no Jesus Christ okay my rhetorical question was answered by a man as usual I can't fucking believe this I yeah so

I'm sorry I'm just like bringing my blood pressure down Caitlin took my wine bottle away all that to say I'm sorry, I'm just bringing my blood pressure down. Caitlin took my wine bottle away. All that to say, yeah, that conversation is bright up. I feel like it asks the audience that question and then gets us very involved with the consequence of his great art that kills its main character, who's a character we love and very much are on the side of. So I don't know.

I think especially given the fact that it was 10 years ago when no one was talking about this really at all, it's doing a lot more than was asked of your average movie at that time. So I'll give him that. And I don't want to argue, so I agree. Yay! I win give him that. And I don't want to argue, so I agree.

Woo! I win! Thank you. Hi. What's your name? Oh, my name's Aisha. Hi. Hi, Aisha.

Hello. Okay, I'm just going to preface by saying that I am 20. Great. Actually 20. And there's so much life ahead of you. Thanks. And I do not look anything like Natalie Portman. But then again, she is a ballerina living in the Upper West Side.

And I'm wearing the glasses of a 70-year-old librarian. And I live in Newark. So there's a bit of a difference there. Oh, and I wanted to make a comment about how people like Aronofsky, especially like people, I have a whole thing about auteurs. We're not going to get into it. Yes. But you hear a lot that art is suffering. And to make good art, you have to suffer.

That's what mother is about. Right. have to suffer that's what mother is about right and so Natalie Portman she cannot be successful she cannot be exceptional without suffering and being at odds with every woman in her surrounding because bitches be fighting and until she writes whore across the mirror and then once she does that like once she's just like a little bit like exceptional and she's a little bit above everyone else she dies she dies and i find that super offensive and super annoying it's like great she like twirls around for like two seconds and then she's dead what the heck but yeah that's my comment I mean we make art and we're

thriving yeah so yeah yeah yeah I don't know but then it's like if you take that if you take the scarf off our boss his head falls off so I guess kind of complicated but that it's like if you take the scarf off our boss, his head falls off, so I guess it's kind of complicated. But that is a really good point.

Yeah, the world of this story doesn't afford her the ability to live. There's so many movies about how being a woman is horror and scary. Do you disagree? I mean, yes, but that's why, and I do see the value in this movie, but I just, I do wish there were more empowering stories that were just more about like, you know, women, Thelma and Louise, they drive off a cliff at the end

because there's no other. Yeah, they die in a different way. Women are all, think about that. At the end, I mean, speaking of Roman Plansky fucking Rosemary's baby, like, she has to have a devil baby. Like, women are always being punished and

again, like, that's part of reality but also we're fucking strong and we can rise up and not die! So that was my retort to the earlier argument. There's movies where I just,

I like, yeah, whatever. I don't know. The more I think about it, the more I think that Nina, her idea of perfection is like a masculine idea

of perfection. It's Tomas' idea. And so at the end when she's like, I did it, I was perfect, she's meeting his standard of perfection, not necessarily her own' idea. And so at the end when she's like, I did it, I was perfect, she's meeting his standard of perfection,

not necessarily her own. Right. And that's why she dies. Hunter Harris. Thank you. We do, we've been getting the light for 10 minutes.

Oh shit. So I'm sorry, we will talk to you after. We just have to really quickly rate this movie on our nipple scale. It passes the bachelor test, spoiler alert, obviously. Yeah to really quickly rate this movie on our nipple scale. It passes the bachelor test. Spoiler alert, obviously.

But let's rate it on our nipple scale. A scale of one to five nipples based on the movie's treatment of women. Two to five. What do you give it? I don't want to go first. I'm scared. Why? No, you go first.

I haven't thought about it yet. Oh, my God. I don't know. I'm going to say, okay, so I'm going to say three and a half. And someone went, ooh. I'm going to say three and a half. I think that this is a very brutal depiction of womanhood, but it's a depiction of womanhood that I, at the time,

and unfortunately still pretty closely connect to. And I know that it is not, I mean, you remove it because of the fact that it offers no real victory. Like Hunter was just saying, it's about a woman's pursuit of a male's idea of female perfection. But I think that it's not an unrelatable narrative, even if it's like heightened to an 11. And there are the drawbacks that we have discussed, but I think it's like a very upsetting, frustrating look at, you know, a woman who has never been asked to do anything but try to meet

a male ideal and how that has brutally punished her and caused her own downfall and total neglect of herself. And it's not fun to watch, but I do think that it is like an important thing to examine and look at. So I'm going to give it three and a half nipples I'm giving all three and a half to Alfred Molina who had nothing to do with this can I give nipples too yes of course okay I'm going to say everything you said but I'm going to give it an extra half nipple. So four nipples for the Clint Manziel Tchaikovsky score, which is, that earns another half nipple for me. That's all. I'll give it a three. Oh, someone validated me. Should I go lower? Stop it! Stop it! Kayla never makes up her actual mind in the live one.

Only at the live shows. I am very confident in the studio. What's your actual thing? I kind of want to give it a two and a half, honestly. Go ahead. Go ahead. I have no attachment to this movie whatsoever, so I have been examining it through just like my lens of

2020. And while it is a female driven story, it's just there's so much focus on antagonistic relationships between women and a predatory situation that I don't think is necessarily handled that responsibly and some other stuff. But I do also see the value in it. There's everything that you said but minus a nipple. And I'll give my nipples to Paddington. Gets him a jam. So we've got to wrap up. Yeah, we've got to get out of here.

Thank you so much, Hunter Harris. Where can we find you online? Where can we find your work? I'm Hunter. I just forgot my fucking name. I'm Hunter Y. Harris on Twitter. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much. Thank you to the Bell House. Thank you to the Brooklyn Podcast Festival. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much.

Thank you to the Bell House. Thank you to the Brooklyn Podcast Festival. Thank you to all of you. Thank you guys. And that was our live show at the Bell House in Brooklyn. Before we go into all our normal plugs, we actually have a few things that we didn't have time for in the show.

They were literally kicking us out of the venue. Fair. The show was long um so there but there are a few more things to to talk about with this movie so uh really quickly um one thing that i thought was interesting like an interesting discussion that you don't really see brought up in film discussions very much is uh the role of the dancer in a dance movie like this because natalie portman you know obviously or maybe not obviously didn't do all the ballet dancing in this movie she did a lot it wasn't that she i mean she trained she like did her due diligence but uh she had a dance double named sarah, who was a soloist at the American Ballet Theater, one of the biggest, most fanciest ones of them all, who did kind of the heavy lifting. But there was a little controversy around that because she wasn't really credited accordingly for the amount of work that she did.

Right. She also said that most of Natalie's dancing on screen is actually her with natalie portman's face like digitally grafted onto hers which is another thing that happens in one of my favorite movies my actual favorite movie itania oh right yes i was just thinking about that um and then the production team of black swan responded to this by saying that the footage that was used in the final cut of the movie was mostly Natalie dancing and that Sarah Lane was only used in a few wide shots. Sarah Lane disagrees. She says that, you know, the production team told her to keep quiet in an effort to make it seem like Natalie Portman had done more dancing than she actually did. So, you know, it's worth, it was just worth mentioning that, you know, a woman who put in a lot of, you know, hard work into this film was kind of silenced.

I mean, it's super frustrating and kind of like typical too, that something like this would happen of like, you almost get the feeling that this is like an effort to be like, oh, well, if we credit this dancer the way that we're supposed to, like, we lose a little bullet point on like Natalie Portman's Oscar submission or something like that. And it's a little frustrating on the Natalie Portman side, too, of someone who generally tends to be on the right side of things being at least complicit in uh in a situation like this so for the record we're team sarah lane and also you can kind of clearly see that it's now like they're kind of deep faking it a little bit like a social network winklevoss style so like also don't underestimate your viewers we We also see it. Right.

So there's I mean, but there's that's not the only controversy attributed to this production. Nope. The next one is so the film Perfect Blue, which is an anime film directed by Satoshi Kahn. Yes. Many people have noticed similarities between that film and Black Swan. Yeah. noticed similarities between that film and Black Swan. So from my understanding, Darren Aronofsky purchased the American film rights to Perfect Blue so that he could use the bathtub scene from Perfect Blue in another of his films, Requiem for a Dream.

And if you see that side by side comparison, you will see that those two scenes are virtually identical. that side-by-side comparison you will see that those two scenes are virtually identical so now people speculate that because he owns the american rights to perfect blue that aronofsky might have borrowed some stuff from it for black swan well so the frustrating thing there i mean it's like the connections between aronofsky and the movie are so, so well documented that he doesn't have a leg to stand on, really. It's not, I mean, there is sometimes overlap in ideas, but this is like he literally purchased the film rights. There's no question that this is what it is. Satoshi Kan's producer Masao Maruyama did with Dazed a couple years ago in 2017 that just further confirms this where he says that Aronofsky and Kan actually had met up they had discussed

this it seemed like they were both very enthusiastic about Aronofsky possibly just adapting the anime to the screen and the the quote is quote I met with Aronofsky alongside Khan said Maruyama it wouldn't have been a problem with an adaptation we thought that a director of that status could have adapted the film and done it in his own way and that would have been fine but I think that Aronofsky's Black Swan including the similarities it has to Perfect Blue, is a very interesting film. So diplomatic answer from that camp. Right. Very classy. But it's like, yeah, he totally ripped it, which is so, you know, for a, you know, white male known for being arrogant auteur stealing from a famous cult anime film director,

that is an exceptionally bad look. Right. We saw the same thing with The Lion King and Kimba the White Lion, right? Yeah, yeah. It's just like American productions totally erasing the fact that they're stealing from Japanese creators.

And I went and watched Perfect Blue. Did you like it? Just to check it out. I did like it. And believe it or not, there are quite a few similarities in terms of... So the story is that a young pop star decides to make a bit of a career shift and turns to dramatic acting instead so she leaves this pop group that she's in to become an actor but she because she kind of has to start over uh she's not landing

the type of roles that she really wants and also while this is happening uh there seems to be a man who is stalking her and sort of infiltrating her her life and then like posting about it online which is so like wildly ahead of its time considering this movie came out in 1997 you're just like what did khan know that we didn't know right but the so the real similarities lie in just this sort of overall idea that it's about a woman whose grasp on reality becomes more and more warped because like as this woman is being stalked, she keeps seeing this image of her likeness. She thinks there's another woman out there who is either trying to be her or is out to get her. Her mental state really starts to unravel unravel there's a more specific example in that

there's a moment on the subway train where the main character whose name is mima uh not unlike nina from black swan um mima sees an image of someone who looks exactly like her like in the reflection in a subway car and that exact thing happens in black swan so i'll be goddamned yeah uh so so i mean it seems like a pretty cut and dry thing and if anything it made me want to watch that movie so i'm glad you got to see it and now i mean now that we're in the quar might might as well gotta gotta find something to do in do time i was about to caitlin did you ever play club penguin no what's that you should google club penguin i'm not going to get more specific i feel like we might we might thrive on club penguin okay anyways um you had one more

fun piece of i mean this is just juicy this uh okay so hit it so i read that while this movie was being filmed darren aronofsky tried to pit natalie portman and mila kunis against each other i guess to just like try to heighten the tension between the characters in the film then he would do this by sending them text messages that complimented the other actor's performance to make them jealous of each other. So he would be like, hey, Mila, didn't Natalie do such a good job on set today? Which is so like transparent, too. It's like if you're going to try to like emotionally manipulate someone, like an effort dude like right weak weak weak well here's the best part is that it did not work and it had

quite the opposite effect of what Aronofsky wanted because Natalie and Mila were already good friends so whenever Aronofsky texted one with compliments about the other, they would just respond and say, yes, I agree. My friend Natalie Portman is doing a great job. Thank you for noticing. Oh, brother. I just, yeah. That makes me so happy because it's like Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis seem to, I mean, based on what I know, seem to be lovely people. And I'm glad that they just were like all for like, and also that Darren Aronofsky's

assumption is that women don't want to support each other. Just like plays into so many tropes that is like, hey, maybe not assuming this would make you a better writer. Right. Unfortunately, I still love this movie so much forever and ever and ever. Amen. But yeah, so that was our that was our um exclusive quarantine bonus content um that we wanted everyone to know and that's the episode right yes that's it so thanks for listening thanks to everyone who came to the live show thanks to our guest hunter harris

she is incredible thank you to the brooklyn podcast festival for having us as well as the bell house for hosting yes thanks to again thanks to everyone who came out who bought merch um who just supports us in any way and um you can also support us by you know following us on social media um going to our patreon aka matreon and subscribing for five dollars a month we're gonna be yeah trying to do more like community stuff on there but also if you can't afford it right now we totally understand like it's it's a time it's a time it's a time yes yes indeed but if you can't afford it it's a great way to pass some time and yes very true you know listen to those bonus episodes uh so i mean and when we got time to

burn we're gonna start making some wild picks right now it's share march um but we have we have we have some stuff in the mix but um yeah you can keep in touch with us there and um in the meantime take care of yourselves we hope that uh the podcast is is a good distraction from um from all the other stuff going on and we're here for you we love you yes we love you take care be safe bye Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one woman wiki leaks she exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you.

Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister, or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm.

Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart Podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. We'll see you next time.