The Bechdel Cast - But I'm a Cheerleader with Jenny Chalikian

Episode Date: May 10, 2018

Jamie and Caitlin founded The Bechdel Camp, a camp that teaches youth how to dismantle the patriarchy! Meet in the Rec Hall for a special presentation on But I'm a Cheerleader with guest speaker Jenny Chalikian!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @JennyChalikian on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the bechdel cast hi welcome to the bechdel cast my name is jamie loftus my name is caitlin durante and this is the bechdel cast our podcast

about how women are portrayed in movies through an intersectional feminist lens. I know. Oh. I just want you. For them. Yeah. Now they know. Now they know. Well, welcome to the Bechdel cast. We are like activated right now.

I'm less exhausted. I'm drinking a Mike's Hard Lemonade. We're literally Rooney and Garland right now. Age 12. I'd like to be Rooney, please.'t oh mickey rooney and judy garland gotta go mickey rooney my king yeah i love mickey rooney i love small fic mickey rooney hey speaking okay so you us talking about mickey rooney means that our conversation is not passing the bechdel test. Oh, she brought it back. Because, yep, always bringing it back.

The Bechdel test, which is what is the inspiration for our podcast, requires that a movie has two female characters with names who talk to each other about something other than a man. And based on our version of the Bechdel test, it just has to be like a two line exchange among two female identifying characters. Let's try it, shall we? I'd love to. Hey, Caitlin. Hey, Jamie. I was thinking about going to Chipotle after this. Are you inviting me or are you just telling me? Do you want to come? I didn't know if you fuck with Chipotle. Oh, I fuck with Chipotle. Do you want to fuck with Chipotle after this? Yeah, let's do it. Oh my god. Okay, fun. Yay. yay wow two women making plans our new show we're taking it on their own amazing two dope queens making plans to go to chipotle together as a group and that's the whole title of the podcast yeah you have to say it in one breath so we're here to talk about a

movie as we always are and as we always do, we have a guest. And our guest... Oh, okay. Again, just reminding you what this podcast is, Jamie. Every time we reiterate what the podcast is, I do somehow internalize it as, like, Jamie's so dumb, she probably forgot what the podcast is about. But that is part of our job, and it's not a reflection on on me and I just have to be more cognizant. I'm just always assuming that every episode we do is the first episode that one of our new fans listens to. One of our new fans. Right. We're always having new fans.

We have so many fans. I'm addicted to the fans. I'm kidding. I'm so tired right now. I don't know what's happening. If this is the first episode you're listening to, welcome. Let's introduce our guest. Yes, I'm so excited. I feel so bad she has had to see this much. Yeah. She is a wonderful person. She was my colleague at the Nerdist showroom at Meltdown Comics, and she's a hilarious comedian, Jenny Chalikian.

Hi, thanks for being here thank you for having me of course so you brought us but i'm a cheerleader i'm a cheerleader yes tell us your history with this movie when did you first see it what's your relationship i saw it in high school i saw it in rome georgia in my friend's house she put it on i had heard nothing about it. And I wasn't a gay then. I just was just a freelance Jenny. A freelance gay? A freelance Jenny. I was too stupid to know I was gay. And I watched this movie. And yeah, it blew my tiny little mind. Wait, how old were you at the time? Oh, I did the five-year plan in college. So I was probably like 17, 16. Okay. So around the age that Megan is in the movie.

I think so. Yeah. Did you have a similar experience where people had to be like, Jenny, I think you might be gay? Yes. A couple people abroached the subject. I was just like, what? I would know that, wouldn't I? I would be the first to know. Right. I wasn't. Some people caught on a little sooner than I did. Good tension. Yeah.

Good stakes. Because, like, I went to boarding school. I was in an all-girls dorm, and I was like, wouldn't I, especially then? I definitely would. No, I didn't. I was just like, wouldn't I, especially then? I definitely would. No, I didn't. I was just like, girls are stressful. Did it have anything to do with like your upbringing or? I grew up in a pretty conservative religious household.

But even then, like my parents were very pro me. I just didn't have any language to even figure out those feelings. Like I remember looking up gay and homosexual in the dictionary or the encyclopedia. We had an extensive encyclopedia and just not much information there. I used to look up the word penis in the dictionary when I was like, probably like 10. Oh, who hasn't? You're a little freak. I used to, I had this elaborate plan. My friend Jade and I, we both had such a big crush on Ashton Kutcher and we were both socially very weird. So we convinced our teacher who was like a very young, nice Teach for America guy. Like we should be able to stay inside and Google things during recess because we don't like going outside because we're losers. And he was like, okay, point stay inside and google things and so we just google ashton kutcher nude frantically for days on end just waiting for the right photoshop to look

realistic enough for us to believe never happened oh sorry i know i saw this movie for the first time i think i was like a freshman in college. I had a friend of mine recommend it to me and I was a young film major at the time. So I was like, of course, I'll watch any movie. And I remember liking a lot and thinking it was really funny. And I saw this movie and saved within I think probably like a few months of each other. And I was like, yeah, I enjoyed them both. Me rewatching But I'm a Cheerleader for this podcast is the first time i've seen it in a long time and i forgot how fun it was and like just how it holds up visually interesting it is it's visually so i had no the style of this movie is so cool and i didn't know that i saw this movie before i knew who rupaul was so i totally forgot he was in it and i kind

of did too yeah yeah his character is so funny is so funny. He's great in this movie. Yeah. I saw this movie for those of you who are playing Bechtelcast Bingo out there. Have we had bingo boards recently? Anyways, if anyone's got their bingo board out there, I did see this movie this morning. And I loved it. I really like this movie. There's definitely stuff to talk about. Oh, there's so much to talk about.

I really enjoyed it. And just like from a visual standpoint, this movie is so cool in the way it uses like a very specific color palette and just, oh, I really like it. And the director of this movie, before we jump into it, queer female director Jamie Babbitt, who when I started doing research on her, I was like, this name looks really familiar to me and I can't figure out why. She's directed almost every TV show in existence. All my favorite episodes of Gilmore Girls were directed by this woman. She directed United States of Terra,

Diablo Cody Show. She's directing a lot of Silicon Valley that's airing right now. She's legit awesome. This was her first movie. This was her first movie and I was just like, pretty impressive. She nailed legit. This was her first movie. Yeah. This was her first movie, and it was just like pretty impressive. She nailed it. She also directed, and then the movie was produced by her, I think, then girlfriend,

who she later married, but also then divorced, Andrea Sperling. Oh, interesting. Because she's now married to Carrie Dornetto, also a major, I think, producer in Hollywood. Ever heard of it? Wow. All the Hollywood heads out there are frothing right now. Anyway. But yeah, she's part of the fun of watching this movie was like learning more about her

and she seems so fucking cool. She directed my favorite episode of Gilmore Girls ever, which for all you Gilmore Girls heads out there is Take the Deviled Eggs in season three. Really funny. Thank you. Just a little bit of Jamie trivia for you. So yes, this is an example of a movie about queer people made by queer people. Oftentimes we encounter movies where there's like maybe one gay character they're usually sidelined we hardly know anything about them and the movie was made by a bunch of straight people and you can tell i think you can tell the execution is usually pretty uh they show their hand pretty quickly yeah so uh i'll do the recap let's Okay. So, but I'm a cheerleader. It's about a character named Megan played by Natasha Leon.

And she is a cheerleader. And she has a boyfriend who when she makes out with him, she is picturing not him, but instead a lot of boobs. And cheerleaders doing flips and butts and all kinds of non-men body parts um but she a very accurate description yes so she goes home and her parents are like um hey we're about to have an intervention because we're pretty sure you're a lesbian and she's like what no i'm not and they're like no we're pretty sure and then there's a really funny sequence where they're like, gay iconography. And there's like a Melissa Etheridge poster. And they're like, and you're a vegetarian and you're trying to make us eat tofu. And you only ever have pictures of girls in your locker. I love how they basically do describe, they're like, you seem like a pretty

good and ethical person. Therefore, we are sending you away. Right her parents are we can imagine kind of conservative christian there's also the vaginal pillow the vaginal pillow yeah i feel like that should have been an open and shut case right there but she like lays her head down and it's just like oh okay sorry continue there's also well the first time we see the parents they are basically praying that she's not gay. Right. So it's like, okay, we got some conservative religious parents. She's just in the dark.

She's like, this prayer is very specific. This is a very specific prayer. So they have an intervention and basically like, you're a lesbian and we don't send you to something called True Directions, which is a camp slash rehabilitation center to effectively turn gay youth into hetero youth. So they send her away and she is reluctant and she still does not acknowledge that she is gay. She thinks she is straight. And then so the facility is run by someone named Mary and she has what is clearly a gay son. Cathy Moriarty, one of the best character actors ever. Loved her work in Casper.

I love the scenes where her voice is just like 13 octaves lower than you're expecting. You're just like, ooh. Cathy Moriarty basically is a cigarette. And she is so amazing. I love her so much. She's great. Yeah. So we meet her and her son named Rock, who we can assume.

Reference to Rock Hudson. Oh, yeah. I didn't pick up on that, but yes. So I think we can assume that she has tried to turn what is clearly her gay son also into a straight person, and it is working to not great effect. She basically keeps him in a dog house. It's crazy. But he's always, like, pulling on chainsaws and just, like, jerking off a rake,

and all the dudes are like— He's an erotic housekeeper. Like, a landscaper. It's just— I love rock. Rock is great. like her landscaper it's just i i love rock rock rules so megan meets she meets all of her peers who are other young people whose parents have been like you're gay and we don't like it so we're going to try to turn you straight at this camp the first step is to like acknowledge that

they are homosexual and then they have to figure out what their root is like why they have denied themselves of a heterosexual lifestyle so there's all these different steps they have to go through and megan meets graham played by uh clay duval and they who is my root sensational so great yes she's also the person who in she's all that tells what's her face to to kill herself and i i can't lots of iconic clay yeah maybe the worst bechdel test passing scene of all time is clay motivated where she's like you could actually kill yourself. And it passes the spectral test. Oh, no, don't say that. It's like they had names. Yikes.

But anyway, so Megan meets Graham. And Graham is a little, you know, she's kind of hardened. And she smokes cigarettes and she swears and all this stuff. Also the only character who doesn't apologize for being gay when we're introduced to her, basically. Yeah. Which kind of changes later. It interesting that's yeah yeah so they get a little closer and they get a little friendlier and then they eventually develop a romantic relationship meanwhile all the people who are running the camp one of them being the character mike played by rupaul who is an ex-gay they're like i used to be gay but then i turned hetero from the camp and even though it's

like the gayest camp of all time it's oh god i love the graduation outfits which is raincoat fabric everyone's wearing raincoat like lycra prom dresses yeah or something you're just like this is a music video like it's just it's it. So, yeah, then Graham and Megan are like, let's run away together because, like, this whole thing is bullshit. Like, you are who you are. You like who you like. You can't change that. And a lot of the characters do recognize this. But because of the pressure from their parents and society, they are, you know, trying to deny who they are and adhere to society's norms.

And by the end, Megan's like, I not gonna do this fuck this like I like what I like and I like girls and I like cheerleading and I'm not gonna apologize for that but she gets kicked out of the camp because she and Graham get caught kissing yeah so she gets kicked out and then she's like I can't believe Graham didn't come with me so she goes back and effectively kind of rescues her from the graduation ceremony just this whole cheer and then finally graham because what's at stake for graham is that she won't get to go to college or get her trust fund or anything like that because she comes from like a wealthy family right but then she realizes lots of zaddy issues right but then she realizes like yeah fuck this i'm gonna embrace who i am and be with megan so they run off together and that's pretty much

the end which is great yay also a movie that ends with two women scaling a fence and escaping where usually when we cover movies in this podcast it's a man jumping over a fence to surprise a woman yeah this is two women escaping consensually big moment for fences normally uh fences really get the shaft totally in film check out the movie fences this has been a plug for by fences on itunes haven't seen it uh seemed pretty well received um yeah i mean it's an example of a movie that is uh based a play, which are almost always extremely boring because it's 98% dialogue. Except for Doubt, which is the greatest movie of all time. Right, right, right.

And it's really good. Okay. Anyway, back to But I'm a Cheerleader. So, but I'm doubt. I have doubt. But I have doubt. I have such doubt. But I have such doubt. But I have doubt. I have such doubt. But I have such doubt.

Yeah, that's the story of But I'm a Cheerleader. And there's a lot to talk about in this movie because it, more than most movies, explores gender identity, sexuality, societal expectations, heteronormativity. Like, there's a lot going on here. Yeah. It's also real stylistic. Like it really does have its own look and feel. And if you want to have fun, you should go back and read movie reviews of this movie done mostly by straight people. Largely summed up by like, I don't get it.

I don't. Why? They made a lot of choices. I didn't understand them. It could have been more gay was a popular one. And Roger Ebert in his review is literally like, someone told me that these camps actually exist. That's crazy. I was just like, thanks, Robert.

Roger Ebert. He's like, it doesn't make sense because at the end of the day, you always choose what you want to do. And I was like, Roger. He also hated Josie and the Pussy so fuck him yeah but he roger i feel like we i mean it makes sense because he is the movie critic or whatever but for the most part i feel like whenever we're addressing his reviews on this podcast it's because he has a bad take. Yeah. I'm just like, oh, you hate this movie that 10 years on, literally everyone loves? Maybe he's John. Maybe he died from embarrassment.

I don't know. Perhaps the most scathing take ever on this podcast. Roger Ebert died of a bad case of bad takes. I was wrong all along. I'm pretty sure it was cancer. Yeah. Anyway. A big criticism, and again, most of the criticism is coming from straight male movie critics,

but a lot of this, like the satire is heavy handed. It's like, what else would it be? Like, you're trying to fit these kids into this like very strict gender identity. They've pushed it not even that much to the extreme because like when you think about it, like true heteronormativity is pretty extreme. And so like you get this very like polarized idea that they're trying to inflict on it. It's like it's always going to be heavy handed, like because that's what they're ultimately trying to achieve is this perfect unachievable absurd ideal right in quotes of gender roles and so it was such a weird criticism to hear yeah i don't know i mean the movie is a clear satire but i feel like a lot of like people are like what's happening? Why is it so pink? I love the scenes where Mary is teaching the girls how to vacuum the carpet and paint each other's nails.

And then RuPaul is teaching the men how to chop wood and fix a car. I like how war is part of the male identity. It's so funny. But it's like, from a satirical that's so funny right it's hysterical also the pose like the charlie's angels pose they make right before they like charge the hill with like fake guns i was just like this is amazing yeah this movie like overtly explores what is considered very stereotypical gender roles that most movies don't bother looking at or examining or anything like that. And it's just so funny. Like when you do look at it from such a satirical point of view where it's like, yeah, we teach boys that they should know how to fix cars

and play football and chop a piece of wood and shoot a gun. And we teach girls that their main job is to maintain a household, and clean, and wash a dish. Those scenes are so funny. And if you don't realize how absurd the gender roles that we are inflicting on people, even today, how they're so silly and outdated and crazy. Like, of course you're not going to recognize that as satire. And of course you're going to be like, oh, this is this movie. I don't get it. I know it doesn't make sense.

And like the satire of like the scene where they're all with the family and they're looking for what Megan's root is. And Kathy Moriarty just goes out on a limb to the point where the parents are. I'm like, oh, of course you only care about it when you're sort of being insulted. Like your daughter can be insulted, and you can send her away to be just like completely. She flips their own gender norms on them. Right. It's like, you're the reason. It's like, wait.

They're like, but it was only nine months. Oh, right, because her parents are such dweebs. I saw my mom working and my dad wasn't working and that's what probably made me gay and it's just like that it's a it's a funny sick burn so jenny i'm curious because i think this is the first movie we've done on the podcast that features a predominantly queer cast of characters, if I'm not mistaken. It's a very good debut. It's a good movie to open with.

So I'm curious. I can only speak to so much as a unfortunately hetero person. So I'm curious. We forgive you. I'm so sorry. In all her press clippings, Caitlin is referred to as the tragically hetero Caitlin Durante. So I'm curious, Jenny, how do you feel the representation of lesbian characters is and queerness in general is in this movie? really enjoyed it because it at its heart was a comedy. Again, I grew up pretty sheltered, pretty like not realizing I was gay, didn't have many clues to go on in my mind. But like, what I was exposed to was just TV and film, most of which very depressing. Like,

if you're just trying to like, figure out what gayness is through movie and TV, it's pretty bleak. It's like, even when sometimes there's gay and lesbian directors or writers, it'll be about, you know, history or bullying or something. All very important subjects, but terrifying if you're just in the middle of nowhere being like, that doesn't look like any fun. I won't go further with this. I don't know. It's like no levity in the way queer characters are.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I liked that it was chaotic and funny. I responded to that at the time more than the fact that it's like, oh, there's good representation because I didn't know. I didn't even know the deficit that I was experiencing of likeied man in media historically throughout all the years. Like, I grew up loving so many movies that treated women so horribly because that's really all there was. And we're seeing a positive trend of, and it's not anywhere close to being perfect or even good yet, but a trend toward better representation, more inclusion, where

people who historically have really never seen themselves represented on screen are finally seeing more and better representations of themselves. For me, I mean, and again, this is, I'm in a similar predicament as you, Caitlin, where I, the terminally hetero Jamie Loftus. You're being very hard on yourself. The upsettingly straight Jamie Loftus. Like this seems to me like a very kind of like open and closed case of just like, yeah, you can make a really effective satire about queerness if you give the reins to a queer director and writer who knows what she's talking about and then it's like punching down to the right people and i mean the same thing's happening in like black panther or like right wonder woman where it's just like oh it can be like this like we all know or beckelcast listeners know, like, representation is lacking.

But when you finally see a movie where that comes together, you're just like, oh, man, it's exciting. It's so exciting. Yeah. And there is, like, this movie is, like, ultimately a satire, but it's, like, well done because it's written by someone who has perspective. Like, I read an interview that Jamie Babbitt did around this time, and she like, yeah, I was aware of these camps and had heard all this stuff. And then I wasn't aware of the extent of the practices at the camp where when you see it in a satire, you're like, there's no way there was electroshock. There absolutely was electroshock. This was a pretty benign representation and it's still like, yikes. Yeah, yeah.

And I don't know. I mean, and like that's so not cool that it happened, but cool that it's represented in this very creative, interesting, stylized way. I also wanted to clarify. So this movie was directed by Jamie Babbitt, written, though, by Brian. So she also has like a story by credit. But the screenwriter was Brian Peterson, who I tried to do some more research on and I couldn't find a whole ton about him. So I don't know if he is. He's on the commune somewhere.

Right. So I was like, OK, is he gay? He is gay. Oh, he is. He is gay. OK, cool. I would be very surprised if the person who wrote this movie was not gay. From what I'm seeing, he's gay himself and had some experience of conversion therapy while working at a prison clinic for sex offenders.

Oh, holy shit. In 1999, Variety named him one of 10 screenwriters to watch. Another thing about him. Wow. I can't wait to be on that list as well for having. Anyway. Break those screenwriters. He plays out of the closet.

He is a queer screenwriter as well. But this did seem to be thoroughly Jamie Babbitt's story that she was also directing. Definitely. Yeah. I think it's also helpful that there's multiple gay characters. Like for the men and women, there's like a spectrum of like femme and butch men and women. Like if there's just one gay character in a movie, that gay character has to represent all of LGBT queer people.

Right. That's impractical. So I think it was helpful that there were just a zillion different types of, you know, even just people in the closet and not in the closet. Yeah, I think that the representation could be better considering

that all of the women in the camp, maybe all but one, were white. I think Jan was a person of color. Jan is terminally ambiguous in every aspect of her life. Right. And God bless her. I believe that is a woman of color. She comes out straight. A softball player?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's like an amazing satirical move for people who don't get it who are watching this movie. I'm like, here's a very painful outing as someone as straight. You know, it's like that's so funny and absurd. But also for I like imagine my dad who is progressive but doesn't totally get it seeing something like that and being like oh okay you know like that is like sort of like for people who want to understand but don't quite get it well i mean heteronormativity can fuck with straight people too like i mean yeah if i'm sure both of you have been like accused of not being, you know, Oh, I've been, I've been assumed to be, or asked if I was a lesbian on so many occasions in my life.

Thank you. I'm just like, uh, I, I'm not, but I, I feel very blessed in this moment. In fact, my mom, so there was a large span of time that has gone on even longer by now. But when I was in college, that's how time works. But I'm saying it never changed. So when I was in college, my mom a few different times asked me if I was a lesbian because I never had a boyfriend, which is a very heteronormative assumption to

make where it's like, oh, well, if you don't have a boyfriend, it must be because you're gay. And it's like, no, because I'm emotionally damaged and don't understand emotional intimacy, mom. But yeah, so my mom's like, you know, it would be okay if you were and I would still love you and you can come out to me and all this stuff. And I'm just like, I know that to be true. And if I was gay, I would definitely tell you I'm simply not. I'm simply just a damaged person who does not know how to connect with people emotionally. Well, that's very much queer culture.

So I'm basically gay. Yeah, my – well, this is not going to make my dad look very good. I was in the GSA all of high school, the Gay-Straight Alliance. Oh, okay. And I identified as S, but if you're in the GSA in like an urban high school, most people just are like, uh, G. And it's like, no, but also what my dad would be like. I am like ampersand. The Game Street Alliance really ignores a lot of people in the queer community.

But anyway, this was a long time ago now. But I mean, I was it was the only like that. And, you know, all the other clubs I was in also, like drama club and band. I thought you were going to be like Amnesty International, which is obviously dipping your toe into going to the Gay Straight Alliance. I was in the GSA all through high school. And my dad, you know, my parents were always like very supportive of whatever I wanted to do. But my dad would just be like, it's Jamie's Gay Monday. Because he would pick me up from the GSA and be like, Jamie's Gay Monday.

Jamie's Gay Monday. And so every Monday he'd be like, how was Gay Monday, Jamie? I was like, it was good. We had productive discussion. I was like, my gay little Jamie. And I was like, okay, fine. My dad didn't fully get gsa um but it was fun i don't know recommend it to any such a weird relationship also massachusetts was the first

state to legalize gay marriage but also such a fucking weird state on every level i mean we've all that's where we all met yes that's where what a strange place where you can't like my dad was fully accepting of me. This is peak New England. Fully accepting of me participating in the GSA did have to call me gay Jamie. Gay Jamie's gay Mondays, which is. Massachusetts is like a liberal upside down. Like it is the weird. Yeah. Well, I so I grew up in a, as you know, a very small rural Pennsylvania town where any sort of thing that wasn't heteronormative was thought to be

very evil and gross and horrible. It was a very conservative area. And to my knowledge, there were no out gay people in my high school. There were certainly gay people, but none of them felt comfortable with being out. But when I got to college, I soon met someone who would become my best friend, JT, friend of the cast, Twilight episode. He would go to gay parties all the time and bring me with him. I was like, this is such a cool culture and straight culture is so fucking boring. And to the extent where I was like all of the screenplays I was writing in film school. Again, I did go to college and then grad school to get a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University. Oh, uh-huh.

Yeah. I don't know if you I've ever mentioned that before. No, I didn't know. Yeah, I don't know if I've ever mentioned that before. No, and I didn't know. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, all the screenplays I was writing were about gay characters, which like as a straight person, problematic. But I don't know. I was just like I was so fascinated by the culture and really just wanted everyone to know that I was an ally. It's all I mean, I don't know. It's so weird because it's like this is like the fairly recent past, but I feel like discourse and views have shifted so rapidly now that it's like, I mean, I think about my attitudes towards gay culture and like how, yeah, like hyped I was on it in like high school. I'm like, that probably was not. But also at that time, I don't know. It's a tricky, tricky area to navigate.

I mean, it takes a little while to figure out how to talk about things, especially if you haven't done it in the past. So, I mean, I think people give themselves a little too much flack for not getting it right out the gate. But like gay culture is awesome. Everyone should have queer friends. If you don't, you're missing out. Yeah, that's very true. And gay parties are better than real parties. Oh, have queer friends. If you don't, you're missing out. Yeah, that's very true. And gay parties are better than real parties. Oh, 100%. And yeah, smell way better.

Straight parties smell like straight up ass at musical time. One of the things I wanted to talk about. So this podcast is called The Bechdelcast. You probably didn't know that. Again, Jamie, I'm here to tell you. I need to, like, get some self-esteem. Like, I'm so stupid. Kayla thinks I need the public. It has to explain to me every single time we do it. Oh, that's a me thing.

I'll work on it. Okay. But there are a number of other cinematic tests that you can apply to media, aside from the Bechdel test that examine representation of other things. And one of the things that I think has come up every once in a while, but I would like to explore it more and is certainly relevant for this movie is the Vito Russo test, which was named after Vito Russo, a celebrated film historian and the co-founder of GLAAD, and wrote a book, The Celluloid Closet, which remains a foundational analysis of LGBTQ portrayals of Hollywood film.

A movie passes the Vito Russo test if it contains a character that is identifiably LGBTQ, that character is not solely or predominantly defined by their sexual orientation or gender identity. And the character must be tied to the plot in such a way that their removal would have a significant impact on the story. Most movies don't even come anywhere close to passing the Vito Russo test. Certainly none we've done on the podcast, I don't even come anywhere close to passing the Vito Russo test. No. Certainly none we've done on the podcast, I don't think. You asked this question on Twitter, and I was just firing off replies, and then I realized that all the movies that I was saying,

they were just subtext gays. Right. Where I was just like, and a lot of them were Michelle Rodriguez movies. So I wasn't completely wrong. But I didn't realize until literally that I had like an existential meltdown where it was like all those movies were just like they were just coded gay. Yeah. And so I just 100% counted it. We talked about this, for example, on the episode about The Rock, where there is that stylist character who is coded as gay, doesn't necessarily identify himself as being gay.

Well, and then we get into a lot of trope villain characters, too. We're obviously removing Jafar. Sorry that I always go straight to Jafar, but I do have a crush on him. And it's never going to happen, Jamie. He's a gay icon, right? He's a gay icon and also a cartoon who's not real. So it's just never going to happen with me and Jafar. But, like, obviously you remove Jafar, the plot is impacted.

But it's, yeah, totally coded. Right, right, right. Yeah. And vilified. Exactly. Villains across the board are often coded gay. Right. Yeah.

Disney has a horrid history of this. Yeah, I know. But then the characters are so dope. The last time I went to Disneyland, I didn't know that it was a gay day at Disneyland where there like a massive meetup of LGBT people at Disneyland. And it was like suddenly a way better day than I was originally going to have. It was like everyone's like it was just so exciting. The energy was it was like especially once it got to be nighttime and people could start drinking. I was like this is the greatest Disneyland experience of all time.

Oh sure. It was so great. Yeah. So I wanted to talk about this movie but I'm aleader, in relation to the Vito Russo test. Because, let's explore this, because the movie definitely has characters who are identifiably LGBTQ. The caveat of the Vito Russo test that says that a character is not solely or predominantly defined by their sexual orientation or gender identity, I think is where we'll get into a little bit of gray area because the whole movie is about whether or not like these characters being gay and having to,

because of this camp they're in, try to deny themselves of their sexual orientation. So it's, it's the whole story is really tied, and their characters are really tied into the fact that they are gay. So I don't know. Do you have a... I feel like Mary and the camp are way more obsessed with their gayness and gender identity than the actual characters. Like when you get down to it, you remember Graham as more like standoffish and like snobbish and you know Megan is just like

you know this wholesome you know yeah like they all have personalities outside of but and like even Megan's outing like her intervention like it was absurd like they were just like you have this poster in your room it's like well that doesn't mean anything and so i don't know i think their gayness definitely comes into it but i don't think they're just solely defined yeah like you can say other things about these characters totally yeah and by the end of the movie because i was wondering that a little bit too but then by the end of the movie i feel like there's that line the like there's not just one way to be a lesbian. You have to continue to be who you are, where that point is made pretty explicitly of just like there's not one way. You just continue to be yourself. The character is saying that as he's handing her a mug that just says queer.

I was like, is this commentary or just a rogue props master? There's many ways to be a queer person. Now drink from this mug that says queer. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, every character in this movie I feel like has a discernible personality one way or another. And also, Cathy Moriarty's character is gay? That was my... I don't know.

I mean, I don't know. To me, I was struggling with Cathy with cat i was like is this just a kathy moriarty vibe i'm getting right is this is this her having like internalized homophobia to me it read as her son rock presents as gay and she basically started this whole camp to be like i have to convert my son into being a hetero. And hey, if I can do it with my son, I can do it with anyone. So like, I feel like this whole thing is built around the fact that she doesn't like that she has a gay son. And that's why... She definitely likes rules.

Yes. She's addicted to rules. And she's not great at being a woman. Like she does. She has to have plastic flowers. So she's not actually tending to anything. Everything has plastic over it. She can't keep anything clean. At the very least, she is like intense, internalized misogyny. Oof. For sure.

Because she's just like, scrub the floors. Yeah. Fuck the boy. Now. I was reading, brag, the Wikipedia page about this movie. Wow, hot. Amazing. I know. the wikipedia page about this movie wow hot amazing and i don't know if this was the i can't remember if this was exactly the intent of the filmmakers or if it was just something that people

were like hey this her basically her character can be seen as the sort of panic surrounding the aids crisis and how because she's so obsessed with cleanliness and all of that stuff where she sort of symbolizes like the panic around AIDS. Oh, for sure. They don't sleep on that. Like when they're protesting, it's like AIDS kills faggots or something. When they're folding napkins at the gay men's home, there's like AIDS ribbon on the napkin. yeah no you're totally right i wanted to touch a little bit more on like the representation of um also on the wikipedia page about this movie jamie babbitt was saying how she like deliberately cast a lot of the roles. And it seems to be, this is especially true for the men who are at True Directions,

not necessarily as much for the women, but she did put a conscious effort in casting people of color in the different roles because the characters of Mike, Dolph, and Andre are all people of color. But I feel like, I don't know know just it struck me as a little weird that that like the love story between megan and graham it's still very white and i feel like i think that if this movie was made today we would see a little bit more representation of people of color yeah like i i think she definitely did try and go out of her way to cast people of color, I think, back then. So there's probably some people, it's like, this is too much.

But, yeah, no, like. Oh, actually, on that note, it says that Babbitt did briefly consider Rosario Dawson for the role of Megan, but the executive producer persuaded her that Dawson, who is Latina, would not be right for the quote unquote all American cheerleader. Rosario Dawson is now on Jane the Virgin in a lesbian relationship. She is and it's really good. It's really good. Jane the Virgin is my favorite TV show ever. It's so underrated.

I love it so much. Why is not everyone in the entire, I've seen all of Jane the Virgin. Rosario Dawson is also just killing it in that role. I love it. So just a footnote

that she couldn't have known. Rosario Dawson plays a great lesbian. Awesome. Yeah. Shouts out. True ally. I also wanted to ask Jenny

about how you feel about straight actors playing gay characters on screen. I do not have a problem with it. I don't think it's, again, gay isn't like a personality. I think it is a little different for trans actors. But I think across the board, like, this wouldn't be an issue if they were any part of LGBT were just cast regularly and not just like across the board like passed over for gay or not gay straight role or like but like they are

being shut out and I think that's it's just part of it's like what we can't even play gay characters like it's it's more that rather than like gay people are the only people who can play gay characters, which I just it's not true. Right. I have a little soundbite from Natasha Lyonne more recent because she's played several queer characters. Yes, but is straight. But identifies as straight. But then also tags that by saying, mind you, when I say I'm not gay, it doesn't mean that I've never tried sleeping with women. Of course I have. I'm not a dumb dumb fun but she but there's also uh she

she talks about like they're like you're kind of like a queer icon but you don't identify as queer and then she responded this is a new york times interview from a year and a half ago she said i never want to feel like i'm taking ownership of an experience that's not my own, but it seems like a lot of the female experience is in response to men. And when I play a lesbian character, it means that she's on her own ride. I love men. I want to sleep with as many as possible, but I don't want my whole life and certainly my creative experience to be in response to just being the girl, like who needs it. and then she says she sleeps with a woman because she's not a dumb dumb so yeah i i always i wonder part of me thinks that it always kind of felt a little weird or wrong when straight actors would play gay characters because there runs a big risk of them misrepresenting sure and some people have said some really dumb stuff after playing a gay character.

And like, I would also like to have some LGBT slash queer actors that I can be like, hell yeah, and root for them. Because right now, a lot of queer icons are straight. And that is frustrating. I don't think the answer is, I don't know. I hope that we can get to a point where gay actors can just be cast in any role, not like they can just be... We've seen some of that. Neil Patrick Harris was briefly a straight icon.

A toxic masculinity icon. Interesting subversion. So straight that for a while I was just like, enough. So straight that for a while I was just like, enough. Enough Neil Patrick Harris. So straight that it's like you're hurting people. Pull back.

Pull back. There can't be a book about how to abuse women with Neil Patrick Harris' picture on it, which there was. But like Janelle Monáe is out there doing some awesome stuff in terms of every one of her new songs. I'm just like, oh, what a gift. What a gift. Hasn't Lady Gaga said, I only write songs for gay people?

Sure. That makes sense. Yeah. I hope to one day be a queer icon as a tragically straight person. I still want to be a queer icon as a tragically straight person? I still want to be a queer icon. The tragic queer icon. Tragically hetero queer icon. I recently lost my job. So in order to grieve, I went to Vegas this weekend for a lesbian sci-fi convention, Clexacon. It was just a bunch of lesbians running amok in Vegas.

And a bunch of shows that have had lesbian pairings and romances and characters were all represented there. It's their second con, and it was huge. So it's been a huge success. And all the actresses or actors, sorry, I guess that's reductive as well. All the actors, all women who were there were just like treated like royalty. That's awesome. Because they just represented these people and people are thirsty for just seeing something up there. But it was a pretty cool place to be.

I just throw that out there. That's awesome. Hell yeah. Good Vegas weekend? Yeah, yeah. It was pretty cool. Very gay. Very gay weekend.

Clea Duvall and Natasha Lyonne also played a couple on screen in a movie. Clea Duvall, who does identify as queer, they played a couple on screen in a movie Clay Duvall wrote like last year. Yes. What's it called? The Intervention. Yes. I was reading about that. Now I want to see it. Yeah, same. So back to But I'm a Cheerleader. Oh yeah. This movie. Sorry, Caitlin. No, no, no. So for

But I'm a Cheerleader, it was initially rated by the MPAA as NC-17. And the director made cuts to allow it to be re-rated R. But the reason that it was rated NC-17 was a couple things. Like it had nothing even really graphic or anything like that. It was just like a mention of a woman going down on another woman. Let's be straight.

This movie is hella vanilla when you actually look at it. The only sex scene is, it's like kind of boringly tasteful. Yes. There's not that much happening. Yeah. It's a PG-13 sex scene. When there's a caress, you sometimes can't even tell what body part is being like. Yeah.

They're like, oh, there's just a lot of skin. Yeah. Right. It's a PG-13 sex scene. Totally. But because of society and how we hold gay things to a different standard, MPAA was like, because it's two women in a homosexual sex scene, it's so obscene and so graphic that we have to give it an NC-17 rating. I suspect it's a double whammy where it's gay and female pleasure. Yeah.

Uh-huh. Good point. She also masturbates halfway through. Right. She does. It's over the clothes, but still, she's obviously. Natasha Lyonne's masturbation facial expressions, I'm just like, have you masturbated before? Most people don't turn into cartoon characters when they masturbate.

I mean, she also has, like, eyes that are, like, one-third of her face. That's true. She does. She is very. But her eyes were, like, she would, like, poke at her own vagina and then her eyes would roll back into her head. I'm like, this is an interesting. She's also, like, vaguely praying, I think, as she's masturbating. Wait, you guys don't do that. This is a terrible realization to have.

Oh, I'm very horny for God. This late in the game. So that was one of the scenes in the movie that didn't quite, I don't know if it didn't track for me or I just like found it odd, where she had just had a sex dream where she was kissing Claire Duvall's character. She goes into the room, a different room, and starts masturbating, but then sees two men kissing and then says, ew, gross. And then she basically rats them out. So she rats out her fellow. She's a snitch. Yeah. And then no one gives her any shit about it.

They're just like, meh. Like, it felt like there should be some aftermath of that. They gave her a little shit about it, but I think it's part of the thing where it's like all of them are so scared. All of them are trying to be. Yeah. I think it didn't take much to push her over the edge and be like, oh, that is someone else. It's where it's like you're experiencing the same things, but it's way easier to villainize someone else. Granted, yeah, the two guys who she catches do say shut the fuck up little bitch

i thought that was hilarious like i know i know that i shouldn't have laughed but that's one of my fucking little bitch it's like rufio is furious at you but yeah i don't know i feel like there was an opportunity for maybe some more tension for the other characters to be like, hey, we're all confused and how could you rat out your fellow? I mean, I think to a certain extent they're partially brainwashed a little too. Because, I mean, they grew up in the same – like this isn't – what Mary's telling them isn't so insanely foreign to them. Like they've been hearing it all their lives. So I think that even when they're just like, well, this is kind of who I am, there's like a grain of like, well, this is bad as well, you know? Right.

I don't know. Back to the – so the movie was rated initially NC-17. Yeah, it's amazing. It's R. It's now R. Hard R. It's barely an R. Like, there's – aside from a few times where characters say like fuck, like I feel like

it could get away with a PG-13 rating. I think so too. But a few fucks edited it out and this is easily a PG-13 movie. Yeah. What was Blockers rated? That new movie? Oh, it has to be R, I think. Yeah.

I don't know for sure, but characters say fuck a lot in it. Oh, okay. I think. I don't know for sure, but characters say fuck a lot in it. Oh, okay. I think. I don't know. That was just the movie that I could think of most recently that would be analogous to a teen romp. I, yeah. I don't remember.

It is rated R. It is. Okay. The documentary, this film is not yet rated, explores the sort of double standard. I think she talks about the actual scenes she had to cut. I think so. Yeah. And then that documentary also, it'll put up like side by side

sex scenes where gay sex is being shown. And then right next to that, a sex scene where it's heterosex. And they can be virtually identical, except for the fact that one of them is gay and one of them is not. And the movies with the gay sex scene almost always get the NC-17 rating, whereas the movies with the heterosex scene, even if they're not any less graphic or show, you know, like it's not as though there's like dicks flying everywhere, like hard to read. Across the board, it's pretty vanilla when it's gay sex to the point where you can just go just the tiniest notch above. And I'm like, oh, are we going? Like, I'll just like you running around the room like just like i can't believe it she goes into a panic yeah i mean it just shows that the the like gay sexuality is held to a different standard by society and it's seen as more graphic and obscene and well i also think that if you're doing it right, it might be. I'm just kidding. That's also all sex.

I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. And it is such a – it's frustrating to hear stuff like that because it does come down to such an issue of access where this is a movie that was successful. It only had a $1 million budget and ended up making $2.6 million. But this is like the sort of movie where if there was access given, if this did have a PG-13 rating, which it easily could have and was widely released, there could be so many more young people in 1999 who could have seen a competent queer text and had access to it. No, this movie was super important to me and I wouldn't have seen it if my friend wasn't like, watch this. Yeah, it was only released in something like 115 theaters across the country it had such a small theatrical release who knows what like movie distributors are thinking I don't know the intricacies of that

aspect of exhibition and distribution like I think at the end of the day all movie release they don't want to take a risk right whether. Whether it be people of color, gay people, women, all that stuff. If this movie came out now, I feel like it would have gotten a way wider release. I mean, because I'm going to keep harping about Love, Simon.

I literally have the Wikipedia page. What's Love, Simon rated? PG-13? Oh, good question. I don't know, but I know that it has a $17 million budget and has so far netted $45. Like, it's like... Fuck yeah. It's good. Love, Simon is PG-13, yes.

Good. So one of the last things I wanted to say about this movie is... So when I was re-watching this and hadn't seen it in a while and didn't totally remember all of the details about it. The first probably three or so minutes that you see of this movie, like the opening sequence of like the credits and everything like that, is just like, again, disembodied female parts, a lot of shots of boobs, a lot of shots of cheerleaders doing splits, you see their crotches, you see their butts, you see their like abs, like all these like very sexualized images of like the female form. And you're like oh wow this is like some male gaze shit but then you realize it's not coming from the male gaze per se it's coming from how

megan is viewing these characters so it's really coming from a lesbian female gaze yeah which who's probably trying desperately not to think of such things, which probably does not help. And I have complicated feelings about this where I'm like, OK, well, that's cool that you're seeing this imagery from a different perspective and from a different gaze. But it's also like, should we really be objectifying women's bodies? I don't know. the movie's framed in terms of the characters themselves almost every stereotype presented is commented upon in some way to the point where it's challenged or recontextualized for me that that those shots were recontextualized in such a way that it was like it's weird because it's like oh now we're getting into like some some film major shit you know, static image, it's the same way you could have a male looking at cheerleaders. But the context is so different.

Right. I feel like the male gaze goes hand in hand with like objectifying and not caring about women. Like her boyfriend is like, you don't even like to kiss me. He knows that. And he keeps kissing her. Oh, yeah. And like you see her, she's attracted to female bodies, yes. But she's also, like, super supportive of her friends.

And, like, you know, even at the camp, like, Graham has been kind of shitty to her. She's just like, hey, do you need a hand? She's so nice. Yeah. So I think that, yeah, she might be viewing women sexually and just kind of like that might be detached. But I also think it goes back to the thing like she's probably trying not to think of like, you know, that. So it's probably amplified a little in terms of like. She's also a teenager.

Boobs. Exactly. Hormones are raging. Now that I think about it, I want to watch the trailer for this movie because I bet it's kind of I would guess it's bad. The line used to market this movie was, but I'm a cheerleader, a comedy of social disorientation, which could mean so much. It's like, just tell us what the movie's about. It was a pre 9-11 world. We didn't know how to market things. Social disorientation. Right right this yeah this movie came

out in 99 i think if i mean we say this a lot on the podcast but like if this movie was rewritten and remade today it would be so different so but for the time this movie is very progressive considering 1999 standards fairly progressive i would agree yeah i think it's still fairly progressive. I would agree, yeah. I think it's like 9 to 5 where it's like you could tell it was made in the past, but the points are still pretty salient. Yeah. I mean, there was nothing in particular that stood out to this movie of like, yikes, that does not age very well.

Right. I mean, I think that, yeah, the points would maybe be hit home harder or in a different way than they were then, now. Maybe there would be like more. Did you guys have anything that stuck out to you as like not not really i think the only the only real thing is it was very noticeable that almost all of the women who were at true directions were white women and the romances between white um that's not to say that the movie is completely devoid of people of color because it's not but i think you know that that was a choice that was made and and it's pretty glaring today um i mean rosaria dawson casting comment speaks a lot to the time this movie was right yeah yeah

i think also if it was made today some updates might be that like it would be more inclusive of like trans people or non-binary people or bi people. Just like anyone else on the queer spectrum. Trying to think who I'd cast if it were today. I feel like Gina Rodriguez would be a strong contender for one of those. She is the best. She is. Did you see her Annihilation? No, I haven't seen Annihilation yet.

Girl. I love Gina Rodriguez so much. It's very overwhelming. That movie is very pro-Gina Rodriguez. Gina Rodriguez. I'm in. I want to give my dollars to people who like Gina Rodriguez only. She's so great.

Does anyone have any final thoughts about the movie? I wanted to shout out Mink Stoll, who plays Megan's mom, who's in every John, not John Hughes, oh my god. Oh my god! John Waters? John Waters movie. Sorry for just having a panic attack.

Oh my god! The French person who tries to dance with Megan is Julie Dupley. Oh, Julie Dupley. Yes. Also, Michelle Williams is in this movie. It's a very hateful, at her most hateful. At her most hateful.

I'm like, way to take advantage of just how Michelle Williams' resting face looks. They're like, we're going to make her do something really mean. Don't worry. She has a mean resting face. Yeah. Which I respond to very powerfully. It's like, yes, your disdain is like food. I wish that there were more gay or queer comedies.

I think there's a huge fucking deficit of that. I mean, it's very important to remember your history and remember and to shine a light on issues faced in the gay, lesbian, trans, bisexual, queer community. But, oh, man, comedy would not go amiss. And there's like a huge market for it. Yeah. I know we have conflicting thoughts on Scott Thompson, but he was the first gay person I saw on TV. And he was also the first gay person who fucking loved being gay. Yeah. And was just like, I'm so happy I'm gay.

My life is better because I'm gay. And definitely, I haven't seen much of that since, like, even today. Like, it's just like. Not in the mainstream, certainly. Oh, man, it's pretty kickass being gay sometimes. Which, I mean, this has become a pretty cult movie. And it's pretty recognizable to, I mean, a lot of people have at least heard of this movie. Maybe not everyone's seen it.

But I think a lot of people know about this movie. Give it a watch, guys. Yeah. I wish I'd seen this movie sooner. Yeah. Yeah, I wish I'd seen this movie sooner. Yeah, it's kind of one of the few movies about like queer culture that has kind of crossed over into the mainstream. I have seen a few gay movies that I know that most people have not heard of at all and that are only popular in the gay community. Gay movies. Right. Where it's just like.

It's weird. Because straight people do often. Their takeaway from gay movies is just like. It's like, oh, you didn't get what you were watching. You should. You don't even realize how. Just by the way. The other three. The only three lesbian comedies in existence.

But I'm a cheerleader. Debs. And possibly imagine me and you oh possibly i haven't seen debs or imagine me and you um debs gets recommended to us to do on the podcast all the time you guys we gotta do an episode oh god guys guys it's pretty amazing. Yeah, I will watch it. Again, very campy. Very campy. Sounds great. Which I'm not saying is a deterrent, but it's a quality film. Yeah.

Give it a watch. Will do. I've just described it as a short. End of list. It's not even my favorite comedy. It's just the ones. Those are the comedy, lesbian comedies that exist. Wow.

I would love to be proven wrong. Tweet me. Well, now's the time. Any lesbian writers out there who want to write more lesbian comedies, do it. Do it. Write. Write the stuff. Direct it.

Make it. Make it a deficit. Do it right now. We're millionaires. We'll give you our millions. My favorite gay thing in existence is a gay male web series called The Wondrous Life of Caleb Gallo. Gay and Wondrous Life

of Caleb Gallo. Or Gallo? I think Gallo. Gallo. It's on YouTube. It might be the best thing in existence. It is peak

gay chaos. It's so good. It's so funny. Freckle is a main character. Who is? Freckle is the best. Gender fluid? I think. Yes. I don't i think yes the what the wondrous gay and wondrous

life of caleb gallo okay oh jamie i really think you would it's all this series spectacast listeners please watch this web series if you haven't already i'm so excited it's so good yeah described as will and grace on speed this does i feel like will and grace is reductive in the sense it is so much more so much more oh i'm so excited i don't know it's great so yeah this movie was probably instrumental in me eventually coming out that's great and again we talk about this a lot on the podcast, but like movies and media are so influential, especially to young people or just people who find themselves not represented on screen where if they do see a glimpse of someone like them, it's really powerful. Yeah, I'm glad this movie exists. It's helpful for people who are too stupid to know they're gay yet.

When I was a kid, I watched Pete's Dragon on repeat because I had a huge honking crush on Helen Reddy, who is a lighthouse keeper. And I thought I just wanted to do chores in a lighthouse. That was my sexual orientation for a long time. Lighthouse chores. Yeah. Try and explain. Explaining trans is so much easier to parents than being like, Mom, Dad, I'm in love with lighthouses. So, yeah.

Great. Shout out to queer dummies i i only had crushes on cartoon characters you know up until as recently as uh today jafar the dragon from pete's dragon for anastasia for me anastasia was a anastasia technically dimitri is anastasia but like gender but like dimitri hot i don't know i just gender-flipped. But like Dimitri, hot. I don't know. I just want to say I said gay a bunch of times, but I think I still use gay as like queer. Yeah.

And like an all-encompassing LGBT thing, which some people find exclusionary. Sure, yeah. I'd like to just footnote that. Sure. Yeah, listeners out there. Yeah, the language. I feel like people are still trying to figure out exactly what language to use in a lot of situations. Some people find queer offensive within the LGBT community, but I think it's – I prefer it.

I don't know. I think we on the podcast kind of use it as an umbrella term to describe anyone whose sexual orientation and or gender identity does not fall within. Sorry, I know you're trying to wrap up and I'm like, let's unpack all the language we just used. No, so we're always trying to do better. And if you perhaps one of our listeners know of a term we may not know of, we're addicted to information. Yes, please let us know.

We're hoping that our language... The queer community loves to share. Yes, we want our language and our perspectives on things to be inclusive. If we're making any missteps, please let us know so that we can correct ourselves in the future. Yeah. That being said, whether or not this movie passes the Bechdel test, If we're making any missteps, please let us know so that we can correct ourselves in the future.

Yeah. That being said, whether or not this movie passes the Bechdel test, it does. A doy. What if we get to this point and it's like sad? Crazy, but. They all talk to RuPaul the entire time. Also a movie I would still see. Yes.

Women talking to RuPaul. Oh, please. Yes. Yeah. So Megan and Graham talk a bunch. Megan and Mary talk about all there's tons of female characters and they all talk to each other. And sometimes they are mentioning a man. But for the most part, the conversations are more about sexual orientation. And it's a non-issue. Yes.

Yeah. No question about it. It passes it also like we um concluded earlier it passes the Vito Russo test which I'd have to really go back and look at the list of all the movies we've covered on the podcast so far but I feel like it's maybe the first movie to pass the Vito Russo test that we've done so far let's rate the movie on our nipple scale let's do it so i would give it 4.5 i'm gonna take a half nipple off for the fact that it could have been a little bit more intersectional yeah representing not just gay and lesbian characters but also other people on the sexuality and gender identity spectrum, as well as could have been better representation of women of color.

Aside from that, though, it's such a fun movie. It is great that this movie exists, that it's a funny, lighthearted, but also providing a lot of commentary on important issues like heteronormativity and gender roles and all that stuff. So it's getting a lot done while also being extremely entertaining. Yeah, it's just a great, fun romp that I really enjoy. I love a good romp. I was going to say, who doesn't love a romp? So yeah, four and a half nipples. I'll give one to Megan, one to Graham, one to Jan, one to – we didn't talk about this character really, but Hillary from New Zealand.

Melanie Lansky. Is she Australian or New Zealand? New Zealand. Oh, God. I love Melanie Lansky. She's great. She's – oh, God. Bring her back.

Also, her accent serves her so well when you first meet her. It's like, lunch at a living. Gay people who like rules, by the way, are the most hysterical and tragic to me ever. She was like pointing at that chart. I mean, they exist. She loves the chat. The chat. There's a chat over here.

It's a chat over here. We call P.S. the fist steep. And then my half-nibble will go to, let's say, Michelle Williams, just because I forgot she was in this movie. She's doing, yeah. Cool. I'm going to give it a four, sort of based on the same reasons you described. I think across the board, it does very well. Lacks intersectionality that I would wager was not present literally anywhere at the time. So it wasn't really a roadmap for it. But there are some picky areas where, for reasons we've already discussed, it could do a little bit better.

But in terms of almost everything, it's like, you know, just having a movie made by a queer artist. I just wish that more people had been able to see it at the time and feel like the world would have been a little bit better if that were the case. So I'm going to give four nippies. I'm going to give two of the nippies to Megan. I'm going to give my other ones to Melanie Linsky because I just love her so much. She's so good in Heavenly Creatures she's so good in everything I really do love her God, bring back Melanie Linsky

where are you? I think you guys are spot on for the intersectionality thing I really do, especially since this is her first movie and she was still trying to be like, I would still like to make it as intersectional as possible there's definitely more she could have done I think she tried was still trying to be like, would still like to make it as intersectional as possible. Yeah.

There's definitely more she could have done. I think she tried. But at the same time, like the gay community is in a unique spot where they can be like, this is what we want to be about. And there is like a racism problem because racism is systemic. But like you, I think the gay community is in a unique position to be like, hey, we want to be about inclusivity and intersectionality. But I'm still going to give this movie all the nips. All the nips.

Five? It's one of my favorite movies. Yay. I'm sorry. Oh, don't apologize. I do a thousand percent agree with you on the intersectionality thing. I'll give it to Clea Duvall, who is my root and just hero. Wanda Jan, who I think is one of the most important characters in the film, totally gets overlooked. I think even when I first watched it, I thought

she was a little bit more of a punchline than she deserved to be. I thought it was hilarious. Like, who does she think she's getting? But now I watch it and I'm like, no, she is the best of us all. She is the most important character. I don't even know how she would fall now. Like, I don't know if she really was straight or she was, you know, fluid. I tried to do a little bit of research on that actress. But I think it's cool. She's like, you're not even putting me in the right box now.

Like, I think she was just kind of cool and very fluid in whatever she decided to be. I will give one to that vaginal pillow, which was incredible. I mean, just throw a nip on it. RuPaul, the soundtrack. At one point, Rock is dancing

to a RuPaul song. Yes! Amazing. I think I have one more left. One to Mary's very deep voice, which I loved. Beautiful. When she comes in at night

with a flashlight, she's like, Megan, you've got a phone call. You've got a phone call. I was just like, oh, that's my sexual orientation.

It's an older woman shining a flashlight in my head. Get a phone call. And when she's on the phone, she's just in her bed in her silk sheets tuning a guitar. An acoustic guitar.

It's so weird. Why? Yeah, she's very intentional. The things that are never explained in this movie are the most important to me. Kathy Moriarty is so intentionally in the background

of that entire scene the whole time. And it's so unclear why. Great movie. Yes. Well, Jenny, thank you so much for being here.

I'm a huge fan. Yay. Where can people. Oh, thank you so much. What do you guys call your fans? That is what we call them for some reason. Yeah.

We could have done better, but we didn't. Yeah. No one was like, what if we're the, for some reason. Yeah. We could have done better, but we didn't. Yeah. No one was like, what if we're the, like, yeah. So. I just like to tack head onto anything. Well, thanks for being a fan. Thanks for being here today.

And thanks for bringing us this movie. And is there anything you would like to plug? And also, where can people follow you online? I am a comedian. You can find me. My name is my Twitter and Facebook and everything else. It's Jenny Chalikian. Sorry, that name does not

roll off the tongue. It is C-H-A-L-I-K-I-A-N. And I have a really cool show that I do with Aaron Judge every third Thursday in Culver City called Romantic Comedy. Yes, it's such a great show. We usually have an incredible lineup. Both of you have been on it. And in May, we're having Nell Sco Comedy. Yes. It's such a great show. We usually have an incredible lineup. Both of you have been on it.

And in May, we're having Nell Scovel as one of our guests. And we just have a really cool, it's usually mostly women. And it takes place in a bookstore.

The Ripped Bodice. Yes. Which is just, they sell exclusively romance and erotica and also just feminist texts of all sorts. But it's a really cool bookstore.

Everyone who goes through there, it's a cool place to hang out. Yeah. So, yeah, if you live in L.A., check out Jenny's show. You can check us out on social media as well at Bechtelcast on Twitter and Instagram. Subscribe to our Patreon for Crying Out Loud. It's $5 a month and you get access to two bonus episodes every single month. Wow.

I know. Incredible. You guys work really hard for this podcast. You put out a lot of material. We do. So give us your freaking money. We love content. Also, buy our merch. We have really cute stickers. We've got really cute buttons. That's very aggressive. Also buy our merch. Buy our merch. We have really cute stickers. We've got really cute buttons. That was very aggressive.

Also, buy our merch. Buy our merch. I loved it. I loved it. I was like, well, I'm going to. Yeah, it's just Mary's voice like, no, I can't do it. Buy our merch. Well, there you have it.

Our discussion of but I'm a cheerleader. Jenny, thanks again for being here. Thank you for having me. And everyone just have a really special day. Okay, bye. Whoa. Okay, bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist

who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden.

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Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one,

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