The Bechdel Cast - Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid with Caitlin Gill

Episode Date: August 3, 2017

Butch Caitlin and the Sundance Jamie wrangle special guest Caitlin Gill onto the podcast to chat about Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Yee-haw! (This episode contains spoilers)Follow @ROBOTCAITLIN on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast, start changing it with the Bechdel cast. cowboy we're gonna be roping them up and throwing them back that's a fishing metaphor you're gonna last with them and then there's gonna be a hole in them but we're gonna let them go we're just sadists and we're just trying to kill a saturday right that's how fishing works i i agree i was briefly an intern on a tuna boat once an intern on a tuna boat that's what they said i

was just not being paid to work on a tuna boat for like a week wait what did you have to do it was with my mom's boyfriend i mean they would catch the fish in large quantities and i would arrange coolers and later we would eat tuna okay it was not did you get credit for as an intern on a tuna boat that's the thing it's like it was during the summer and i think that they just said they called me an intern because they had no intention of paying me. And I was staying with my mom, and she's like, I would love for you to get to know him better. And so she's just like, intern on his tuna boat. So I did for like, it was like maybe four days. It was a bad week because you get up so early.

Yeah, that's crazy. But what if you were majoring in tuna fish in college, and then you're like, I have to have this tuna boat. Well, to be clear, I was a fish major in college. Hey, do you know what I studied? What? I have a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University. No big deal. I hate to mention it.

I hate to bring it up. You have two fucking minutes into this thing. Okay, Mrs. Alfred Molina mentioner. That's not, that has nothing to do with education. That's strictly the direction my loins point me. Okay. You have like... My bat signal.

That compass from Pirates of the Caribbean that Jack Sparrow has, it just like points your crotch to wherever. Yeah, it lifts me airward via my crotch, and I just hover to wherever he may be. Anyways, welcome to the cowboy episode that became the fishing episode that became us arguing for a second. Right. Hey, let's introduce our guest. Yay. She is a wonderful comic. You've seen her on Viceland and she runs a very funny show in Los Angeles called Crab Apples.

Caitlin Gill. Hi, Caitlin. Hi, Caitlin. Hi, Caitlin. Hi. Hi. They're distinguishable Caitles. Caitlin Gill. Hi Caitlin. Hi Caitlin. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

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Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

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Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

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Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. either. No, it's not. It's not good. We'd probably be dead just at the starting scene, unable to compete with one another to truly establish dominance. Because who will let us in the patriarchy, you know? You just won't even let us on the mountain to climb it. Nope. Yeah, you don't make it to the first act. Highlander sucks fabulously. I hate that movie. I love to hate it. I'll watch it. No problem. It's garbage. It's so great. I only saw it once pretty recently, and I did not care for it at all. I have an incredibly high threshold for garbage. I really love garbage films, like passionately love B movies. I think terrible movies are great. So much fun.

If entertainment is the rubric, then I am fully satisfied to measure it by entertainment value. I love watching terrible movies. Nice. I don't think the movie we're going to talk about today is terrible. That does not fall in. What's your favorite terrible movie to watch? Oh, my God. Well, I'm a big fan of Rift Hacks and Mystery Science Theater 3000.

So, what kind of terrible? Well, that's... Do you want like big budget bad or do you want a movie that's barely a movie bad? Is this like a Mac and Me situation? Because, oh, I just saw one. It's like in Hunt of the Yeti or Searching for the Yeti. It stars Meatloaf. For real?

You're kidding! No way am I kidding! I love Meatloaf! Oh, you're going to love this movie. Oh, I'm a big loaf head. That's exciting. It hardly functions as a feature film. When did it come out? Gosh, I don't know. I want to put it at like a 91. It's wild because Meatloaf is an excellent actor. Well, yeah, you know, I want to put it at like a 91. It's wild because Meatloaf is an excellent actor.

Well, yeah, you know, he really carries the cast in this particular picture. I have to say, not a lot of people do any heavy lifting. The loaf really does his job. He has a little assistant he drags around called Blubber, who I swear to God is doing a Bobcat Colthwaite impersonation. I swear to God. I have to ask Bob if they pitched that to him, if they came to him with it and he was like hard pass. And then they just found a guy that was like, I can do one of those.

And then they threw him in the movie. It's ridiculous. Oh, my God. You can't turn down the love. I mean, you can. He was in Spice World, which we did an episode. He was in Spice World. Spice World is legitimately one of my favorite films. It's so fun.

I think it is excellent. Non-stop fun. It's so fun. I think it is excellent fun. Non-stop fun. It's not even bad. Just good. The cameos are great. It's a movie. Of course it's not

a great film that you're going to study from someone's oeuvre. It's just a funny, it's just well done. It is perfectly executed for what it is. It's the perfect example

of a movie that could have only been made in like two very specific months. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, the window was short. It makes no sense, but it's great. It's like the picture of that time.

It's like a still photograph that perfectly encapsulates a two-month span. You're right. My favorite, I love a big-budget bad movie. I, Frankenstein is one of my favorite big, bad. Oh, it is, I love when a bad movie is so sure it's gonna get a sequel oh god they set you right up the 98 Godzilla baby yeah yeah Matthew Broderick dinosaur hunter that's I guess Godzilla is not technically a dinosaur forgive me

forgive me don't don't take it out on Caitlyn and Jamie in the comments that was that was other Caitlyn's mistake I'm other Caitlyn this is on Caitlin and Jamie in the comments. That was other Caitlin's mistake. I'm other Caitlin. This is your house. Attack me in the comments. I reflected on the one time that I got targeted by the steampunks. It's still one of my favorite accomplishments. Not enemies you want to make. They have very complicated mechanizations to come after you.

They do. And it's like, is it the past? Is it the future? We don't know. What was that? Is it Wild Wild West? Sway vests are lame. Yeah. Is that what that movie was called? But that's a fun badge. Is the steampunk, like, cum stain on a movie real? It's ridiculous.

I love it. I love garbage. I love garbage. I know all the words to that song. Right. We've sung it. Or you have. Yikes. I can't claim it on this podcast. Well done. Yikes. That used to be something I would brag about in high school for some reason. Just so you know.

Excuse me. Mine was Blue's Traveler, Hook. I absolutely know all those weird words in the rap part. I definitely looked up on early internet, like, I endured that to get to the real lyrics of Hook. Oh, God. This is too honest. Let's get to something that the real lyrics of Hook. Oh, God. That's worth it. This is too honest.

Let's get to something that's not about my past. We are talking about the movie Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Not a garbage movie. Caitlin, yes. When did you first see it? What's your history, your relationship with this movie? This was a dad had the remote. It came on to like Turner Classic or something

and he just wouldn't change it. So I endured it as a boring, long, quiet movie with like punctuated and exciting things when I was a kid.

And then I rented it to try to be cool. I don't know why, it really was just like, I think I'm supposed to like this. It was like an angsty teenage, I only like old things.

And I know all the cool ones. I didn't read a book, book mind you this was not me going to the library to pick out a classic this was very much i can be cool i can be smart in two hours yeah that was my judy garland phase all over oh yeah i don't like things that are from now i liked what was massively popular that right but i watched it again and i don't think at the time I had a very critical eye. I just knew it was good. I'm still struggling with that as a person in the entertainment business, if I can even say that. I don't know where to stop being a fan

and start being a critic or a fellow artist or entertainer. It changes the way you experience taking media, but I'm glad I saw this at a time when I didn't ever try to look behind the scenes of a movie. I didn't want to know who wrote it. I didn't care about who directed it. It just happened and it worked or it didn't work.

And that one worked. Like, it's a very captivating environment. I was kind of drawn in. I had to be like 13 or 14. So I didn't know why the movie was making me want to have sex with everything, but it definitely did. Well, and still does. It has a lot to do with

some homoeroticism between maybe the two most attractive men to have ever been born in existence. Yeah, dressing. And Gatsby. Not just in their prime, but in prime. Just definitively. It is prime day. That's when we're recording, and

I think that is very fitting. Prime Day, 7-Eleven Day. I'm going to get a Slurpee two seconds after this is over. This is a terrific afternoon. Oh, yeah. And then I saw it one more time. Sorry, I'm not done with my fan relations. I saw it later on after reading more about story and film structure

and how movies are made and getting more curious about who makes good stuff and how. And looking at it from that lens, it's an exceptional work. I think it's just a film school movie. Of course you watch it. It's one of those. It's just sort of a blueprint for a great way to do things. It breaks some rules.

It makes some rules. I think it's really pretty. I just think it would look great if you shot it now. And it's from 69. I thought of Hell or High great if you shot it now. And it's from 69. I thought of Hell or High Water. There's a few movies that makes me think of where you can really see its influence. I think you guys talked about, you guys, oh my goodness. I think y'all talked about.

Yeah, cowboy language. Thelma and Louise already, but there's some obvious parallels that I just love its footprints or its little fingerprints in films later that I caught. I would like to think that Back to the Future 3 drew a lot of inspiration from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Yes. I agree. I love this movie a lot, although rewatching it through the lens that we critique movies on this podcast. Sure. Hey, not so great. We'll get into it.

But it's a movie I saw, I think, probably for the first time in maybe late high school. My mom was a big fan of this movie. I wonder why. Right. How old was your mom in 1969? She was born in 54, so she was a teen. Oh, man. This is her Titanic.

This is her Titanic. She's horny as hell so she was a teen. Oh, man. This is her Titanic. This is her Titanic. She's horny as hell. God damn. Totally. She's soaking wet in a $1 movie theater. Yeah, no kidding. Good for Lori. Shout out to Lori.

Shout out to Lori. Shout out to Lori. So I saw it, and I loved it. Again, I don't even know if it's a good movie or not. I'm just so horny for Paul Newman and Robert Redford. But I do if it's a good movie or not. I'm just so horny for Paul Newman and Robert Redford. But I do think it's a good movie. Just the banter between the two of them and their relationship is just really fun to watch. And they're so fuckable.

Yes. Everyone in this movie is fuckable. Even though everybody's dirty, you can tell they smell bad. And I want to have sex with everyone in every frame. All of their stinkies. I don't. Gang? It wasn't't for you it wasn't for me i'm not a cowboy gal i'm not a cowboy gal i'm not a western gal i'm not a generally not a a movie gal person why are we here i didn't i watched the whole thing which uh compliments which thank you so much yeah I watched the whole thing it was long and there was a lot of anything where there's chasing I was like

I gotta get up I gotta I gotta take a lap I don't know and and because this was my first time seeing it I don't have any glow around it and so I was watching it for this podcast and i was like really honed in on like waiting for the first female character to come on screen and boy was i waiting for a little bit and then it was like oh leader of a whorehouse cool female character number one i i mean it's fine it's i it's one of those movies that i just know would not be for me at any point sure yeah i think it's definitely a western but it's somebody's era ending while they're living in it like they're watching the sunset of their kind of heyday in time they're trying to squeeze the most out of life and they see it escape like i mean it said

directly to them twice at the halfway point of the movie you die at the end of the movie you're gonna die at the end at the you die you pick where i guess and i'm leaving before i have but you die at the end and they know when there's a few points where it's suggested they know and there's something in that that i find very compelling regardless of whether or not they're cowboys because it's not every western i love but like the new True Grit was another film that I would think of for this podcast, because again, it's not a lot of women, but the women in the film are fascinating

and very interesting reflection of the time. Because Etta in Butch Cassidy and the Sunday's Kid is also, you have to wait a long time to see her. She doesn't have a whole lot of screen time. What a layered and revealing performance. And also what other woman do you write to wait a long time to see her she doesn't have a whole lot of screen time what a layered and revealing performance and also what other woman do you write to reflect this time? It'd be dishonest to suggest that she's a swashbuckling

fun time cowgirl she describes herself as 26 single, a school teacher bottom of the barrel what a quote it is weird because they do make the most of every line she's given. She does not have a lot of lines, but when she speaks, she is amazing.

That was inappropriate and I apologize. Also, she is so married to Sam Elliott and has been for like a gazillion years. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. He's apparently in this movie. You never see him on screen, but I was watching the credits. He's the other card player at the very beginning. Oh!

Whenever it's like, Sundance, you you're cheating and what a great opening scene it's like the first one is butch like in a bank like what happened to the old bank it was beautiful people kept robbing him small players to pay for beauty like yeah you know exactly who he is right from the gate and then as soon as you see sundance he's not cheating at cards and winning uh or was he cheating he wasn't i think he's i think he's yeah he just wins oh and then he walks in the light sundance how good are you and he's like bye-bye gun so horny it's horny right from the right oh my god the color like every it's not okay so here's a terrible movie this is tangential but i promise i'm gonna get back to where we were

anybody seen samurai cop no this is a joke from rift rex that i'm kind of stealing but it is a Okay, so here's a terrible movie. This is tangential, but I promise I'm going to get back to where we were. Anybody seen Samurai Cop? No. This is a joke from Riftwrecks that I'm kind of stealing, but it is a thousand percent correct that there's a sex scene in Samurai Cop with two physically perfect, like a guy who looks like a bodybuilding poster and a woman who looks like a 90s calendar in an auto mechanic shop. And they begin the act of copulation and it is so absent of any sexuality. Sensuality is a mile and a half away. How do you take two beautiful bodies and make them like it would an incompetent or beautifully incompetent filmmaker could have made that like those two men unsexy. It's possible to shoot Robert Redford and Paul Newman in a way that is unsexy. But they are perfect creatures that were caught perfectly in this film

in like every step, every time you hear their boots fall, every time like, ugh, the stupid eyes, Paul Newman's stupid eyes and his dumb greasy hair I just, it's, yeah You can smell how salty they are, and I want to know about it

Yeah, he's stupidly handsome But for me so handsome that i'm like i i don't even think i'm horny i'm just looking is that makes like a study almost yeah like i tap out at a certain point of handsome i understand that's like a little bit much but i'm i will continue to look and but now it feels like a science project i mean how handsome they are is borderline inappropriate right like it. Not suitable for young eyes. And they're fully clothed the whole time, but it's inappropriate. Extremely clothed.

Speaking of their clothes, and then we should also try to pass the Bechdel test in our conversation and not just talk about... Oh, of course. I mean, it's hard in a mostly boy... Did I hijack and we didn't get to talk about a summary? Okay, good. No. Can I just apologize for myself on this podcast about the representation of women in media? I mean, it's hard in a mostly boy. Did I hijack and we didn't get stuck on a summary? Okay, good. No. Yeah.

Can I just apologize for myself on this podcast about the representation of women in media? I am so sorry I'm occupying this space. You know, we appreciate you coming forward. Lots of clickbait forthcoming about this. Pretty brave. Yeah. I'll do the recap. Oh, sure. Story.

Tap it up. So we meet Butch Cassidy and his partner, the Sundance Kid, and they are bank robbers. They're bad boys. Bad boys. But their hearts are good. It's the only life they know. Well, they knew wrestling. They did.

Which I had to look up. Turns out that is like stealing livestock. Oh. That was, yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. So they're bank robbers. They also rob trains sometimes.

And they go to rob the flyer. Yeah, Philadelphia Flyer, I think. And it belongs to E.H. Harriman. So they rob this train twice and take all the money out of it. Poor Woodcock. Poor little Woodcock. There's a little attendant in the train who's so devoted to his job. And you see he would get out of the train.

But he's in the employ and he just can't. See, that's my type right there. I'm just like, this is realistically where I would land. I liked his seats. I was like, because they're too hot. I'm like, this is my speed. I just don't get why he was so loyal to some fucking rich dude. It was annoying to me.

It's the only life he knows. It's just a more boring version of that. Yeah. So Butch and Sundance and his hole-in-the-wall gang rob this thing. Which is funny. That sounds like a glory hole gang. Yeah. Apparently, I was doing some Wikipedia-ing.

Oh, wow. And Butch Cassidy's actual gang was called the Wild Bunch. They were not called the whole mall. That's a great name. Yeah, I think that's been used elsewhere, right? Well, there's a movie called The Wild Bunch, which I have not seen, so I don't know. It is a Western, and it's about, like, cowboys, and maybe they're robbers. I'm not sure.

I'll go watch that movie, and then I'll let everybody know. Cool. not sure i'll go watch that movie and then i'll let everybody know cool so anyway they they rob this train twice and then e.h harriman of the union pacific railroad develops a vendetta against butch and sundance so he sends out this team of hired like a guy who's an expert tracker and then a lawman and they start chasing butch and sundance so they're on on the lamb for a while and then they meet up with sundance's girlfriend at a place and they're like maybe we should go to bolivia there's some mines down there we can steal their payroll they go to bolivia and everything's okay for a while except that bolivia they don't like it and then um they're stealing all the they hate it right and then they start

robbing banks down there and then local law enforcement starts to get wise yeah banditos yankees right

so they just they can't win and then there's a shootout at the end and they get dead the end or do they no they're very much dead

we don't know they're very much dead but we know we know so We know. So that's the story. Our main female character is at a place, as we already hinted at, doesn't have a ton of screen time. Horses running in the distance have significantly more screen time than the primary female character. Right.

I was taking notes in real time of how I was viewing Etta. And here's a little, okay. First, I like that she's friends with them. That was thought number one. Thought number two, I don't know. Maybe this is dynamic. She seems nice and fun. Thought number three, all caps.

I have been tricked. Etta Place is a guy's gal. I was almost tricked. I won't be tricked again. She's a guy's gal i was almost tricked i won't be tricked again she's a guy's gal and and it connected with me as like ah fuck that's what i wanted to be in high school and i'm pissed off when she's like hanging out with butch and they're having so much freaking fun and she's like you know on his horse like this is so much fun for me and you know it's like i like that they're friends

but they're man i i hate the the guys gal of you know she'll do whatever the guys do because she's she's fun she's you know she's just like them she can hang you know and like that whole god it just it i find it very frustrating and it's not so egregious because she is not given a ton to do and then later when they go to bolivia she has her role and she is playing the teacher and she's trying to keep them motivated and all this stuff but that scene with her and butch and then that ends with like do you think that we would have ended up together if i hadn't met sundance first i'm just like fuck you like you don't have i mean they are the hottest

men in the world but you don't come on don't be's gal. Grow up. I really wanted them to be in a three-way relationship. That's what was happening. I mean, that's the next line is, Butch, we are involved. Right, but were they, like, having sex? I don't think it's... Like, you never see who's having sex in this movie. An orgy. And yet, you kind of do. I think

that Butch is like... He's the sun. Everybody loves him. He shines on everybody. You could never expect his exclusive attention. And Sundance is this laser who's focused on her. Sundance is in the body house with the ladies of the night, employed keenly in the world's oldest profession, and yet he is not interested in any of the wares sold.

Butch indulges adorably and freely but sundance goes home yeah i think everybody's performance if the movie's tone and the performances carry everybody's pretty layered and to me etta doesn't have a lot of options the women that have already kind of slipped it slipped is the wrong word uh this is a terrible shitty time for women in which you could not own anything, vote, or have jobs or do anything. So you either had land somehow through inheritance or because you had a man to give it to you or you found a way to make a living on your own

and the women who do that on the other side of the line society drew of appropriate have a camaraderie that's displayed in the film. There's a house full of women. There's a woman keeping them safe. Yes. Of course, that's not the way it fucking should be, but that's part of what happened.

There was way for women to have relationships on kind of that side of the line. And Etta is almost there. She's a school teacher with this boyfriend. She has no husband. She's right on this line where women on the other side of society's line won't talk to her. She's not cool enough to go to the brothel and chill with those ladies, but she is not allowed in the church house.

I think she's very lonely. Sure. She's lonely because she's bored with who she grew up with. She doesn't want to be with them. She goes to Olivia without them. I think she's just too, I don't know, there's something about that performance that suggests to me that she would never look down on a lady in a brothel. But also she knows that's not her blueprint. Right. She doesn't have that.

She's not going to. She does rob a bank. And I don't think the ladies in the brothel are going to do that. It's just women doing whatever the fuck they can to not die because their husband hit him with a stick legally. Right. I think they are all involved with each other. I think they're committed to each other and like. Sure.

They're bonded. I don't know what the each other. And like, they're bonded. I don't know what the language is for it. But they, you know, they talk about vacations they've taken in the past together. The little montage moments with the still photographs that kind of flash by. There's a really kind of sweet series of stills where everybody's having fun and dancing. And then the party's winding down. And it's just Sundance and Etta dancing and Butch watching. And at first he looks lonely.

And then he smiles, I think. Right. Yeah right yeah oh I did forget about that yeah she wants this exclusive Sundance attention and Sundance definitely has that laser focus on her but he's also kind of a like drama queen whiny bitch like yeah he there's some lines he has i'm like oh come on he's sexy he's devoted uh and he's very loyal and i think he does love her but you know he's no fun without butch around right but butch is gonna be fucking everything and shining on everybody i don't know yeah i really thought that that was an interesting three-way portrayal of a relationship on screen it's kind of rare i mean i feel like that would be a controversial relationship to portray now we'd all be talking about the thruple on some show or movie no those are interesting It's kind of rare. I mean, I feel like that would be a controversial relationship to portray now.

We'd all be talking about the throuple on some show or movie. No, those are interesting points that I didn't think about enough. I was just like, oh, they're so hot. Lucky her to be able to be spending time with the two of them. So let's backtrack a little bit. So the first female characters we see are i think her name's fanny she's like she's like the mom of the whorehouse yeah yeah and she gets like i don't know a few moments of screen time like hardly anything you see a whole room full of women um but they're not really doing much and then we meet so edda's introduction is fascinating to me because before we know that

she and sundance are involved he is in a room in the dark watching her undress and then she realizes he's there and she you startled me and he's like keep going and then he picks up his gun and points it at her to signal her to keep undressing right which she does and we as the audience who's never seen this movie before think she's in danger he's a creep a rapey rapist and this is gonna be scary and then she keeps undressing and then he goes over to her and like kind of starts to pull her clothes the rest of the way off and she's like you know i wish i wish that for once you'd get here on time and it's like oh they know each other right this was like maybe a hot thing for them maybe this was like a role playing thing they do i don't know but it was like so uncomfortable to watch this happen where he's

pointing a gun at her while she's presumably like forced to undress right but then it seems like it was like by the end you're just like oh maybe that was like pre-planned we don't know maybe maybe like or maybe this is like what they do maybe she was like next time you come home and i don't know when to expect you sit in the corner in the dark and then point your gun at me and watch me make me undress like maybe that's a game they have. I don't know. I don't want to shame their weird gun sex. Go for it.

But it is weird the way it's presented to the audience of like, what a weird place to build tension. And I guess, I mean, plant a slight seed of doubt of like, oh, is Sundance a good guy or is he uh is he about to rape this lady oh she's his girlfriend and he loves her right well he's not a rapist cool next scene true yeah like we've seen him as kind of bad guys they're charming bad guys but it's kind of like oh no are they much worse bad guys than i thought they were uh And then, you know, little switcheroo. Like, nope, just... This guy loves monogamy.

Extra hot and into monogamous extended roleplay fantasy. Right, right. Yeah, that scene was a little weird, but I don't know. By the end, I was like, oh, okay. It wouldn't have been, I think, so bad except that all the other scenes after that where she is in them, she is treated so poorly by her boyfriend.

Yeah, he is very mean to her. Like, maybe I could forgive that one time where like, yeah, maybe it is like a fantasy role playing thing they have going on. Or maybe he's just a controlling asshole, which is what he seems to be. But only to her. Like, he and Butch's, we'll call it maybe a bromance. They have, like, a fun banter. They're in love. Butch and Sundance are in love.

And I love to watch them be in love. For sure. Great. And go for it. But then, like, leave that alone. Like, I don't know. There is another scene right before with Etta, because there's long stretches i i don't know there there's another scene right before with edda um because there's long stretches where we don't see her prior to them going to bolivia we meet her

then some cowboy shit and then finally she comes back uh but there's this scene at edda's house and she's on the porch and she's like visibly upset this is like what bugs me about this three relationship is she's visibly upset the whole scene in a way that's very clear to us. And no one asks her, hey, are you okay? You're frowning a lot. And Butch and Sundance are talking in the kitchen and then they come out to her. And where that scene lands is, hey, come to Bolivia with us. But, you know, one could argue they don't know how to treat women well

because it seems like no one in this era knew how to and it was not even thought of to ask a woman hey what's up but that scene was so frustrating for me it's like because we it's this long shot of her frowning and then them presumably noticing it we come into the middle of like they've probably been there for a couple hours and then they come out they're like hey frowny you want to go on vacation with us and it's like fuck you they're well that seems like this is a real dude like he's he's not nice about it i don't know what i was going for with dirt i don't know what word i started or was trying to finish but it was something but yeah like I guess you can come with us, but if you get whiny, we're leaving you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, he's a mean guy. I'm a fighter. Before they had that conversation, right when they show up, Sundance is like, do you have enough to feed us? And she's like, don't you know that I do? And it's like, okay. I'm a good. Yeah, I have food and it's in the kitchen and I'm there and I'm barefoot. You're a strong and I'm a good.

I like how that's basically the first thing that he said to her, like, feed me, woman. And also in the same scene where they invite her on vacation, I was like, okay, they're not going to ask her if she's okay. She seems used to this. Then they're like, go on vacation with us. But the reason we're asking you to come is because we think traveling with a woman will be good cover. It's like, oh, okay, so she's not. They're not taking him serious? You know, maybe I just have a family with too much layered trauma.

But I just see it all over with Sundance that, like, he loves her too much to say it out loud. Because he knows he's going to die. And he knows he can, like like it's him that's gonna get her killed i think he's afraid of that through the whole movie come with us i guess but instead of saying like i fear losing you i feel that it will be my fault if you make this choice because you love me and i love you and then you end up dying because of my actions like he's not gonna say that he's gonna say come if you want, but I'm not going to make this easy. I'm not going to make this an easy choice.

Right. I mean, and it's, they're emotionally repressed because they're men living in this time. And that makes sense to me. But it's just like, you know, it's this whole. Like, that's the only way we see him. There is kind of a tender moment. Right after that. Where he's like like don't make a big thing of this and then there's just like kind of silence between them and he's like okay make a big thing

and then they hug and it's like okay but i just i kind of wanted maybe more tender moments like that to remind us that he's not just a fucking and yeah i get it like they're he's a tough cowboy man he has this prickly exterior and he's not gonna like be all mushy with how much he loves her and all that stuff but just yeah he's like if you want to go i won't stop you but the minute you start to whine or make a nuisance i don't care where we are i'm dumping you flat like what a horrible thing to say to a person yeah and i know that that's like that's some realism in terms of like that that's more likely than an emotionally honest conversation between a man and a woman at this time but it's just like uh and that's fine but just in terms of like

watching it i was like i'm i'm sad i don't it wasn't and then this is this i believe the same scene where etta has her monologue i wrote it down uh i'm 26 and i'm single and i'm a school teacher and that's the bottom of the pit. The only excitement I've ever known is with me now. So I'll go with you and I won't whine and I'll stitch your socks and I'll care for you when you're wounded and I'll do anything you ask of me except one thing. I won't watch you die. I'll miss that scene if you don't mind. And that is, I would guess, probably the longest line she has in the movie and the most kind of like a thesis statement of her character too which is whenever we see the scene toward the end when she's like hey i think i'm gonna

go home ahead of you guys she knows what's gonna happen yeah and i i actually i do think i mean back to that scene where sundance is being a jerk about going to Bolivia. Like, I think the line that he's not saying, I don't think it's just a prickly exterior. I think this is when you slam the door when you're a teenager at your parents because you can't tell them what you're really thinking about. Like, I don't know, I'm afraid of boys in my body is what you're saying when it's like,

fuck you, dinner sucks. Like, you know, you're being a shit because there's things you don't know how to say, there's things you don't know how to process. And I think the performance, I mean, this is a lasting film because i think his performance pushes past some of that prickly exterior i'm using air quotes thing to show a little bit more of what's actually happening underneath the things he can't say i think you can see the things he can't say to her i think the bond between them is not scary or bad but good and probably they both know it's rare and unique like he's not going to find another one of her she's not going to find

another one of him and that's a love story in like any era and communication emotional communication is hard in any era like there's a 2000 version of this movie for robots that are like you know with our sci-fi version of this relationship or whatever yeah this relationship is replicatable outside of a cowboy prickly exterior movie if it doesn't carry if the movie's boring and you're not seeing the like yeah it's just a guy being a dick and you don't really care about his backstory or his trauma you don't care why he can't be emotionally articulate or mature uh but if you're in it with the characters, if it does suck you in, it's like, just tell her you love her, man. Come on.

Right. Just say it. It's like a more beautiful moment than it is painful. If it's working. If it's not, then like, yeah,

that's, you don't see the, hear the line behind the line. You don't see the emotional layers or whatever. Yeah. But the scene at the end, or closer to the end in Bolivia

when Etta decides to go I think that is sweet and different for the time to have two men say to a woman whatever you want to do. Right.

It's what you want. I'm not going to keep you here. I don't own you. Leave because it's safe. Stay because you want to stay. There's a place for you but we're also not going to try to make you

I just thought that was sweet. And with Sundance in that scene it almost seemed like, you know, there was like sad, but he was also a little bit relieved that she was... Because she would have gone down with them.

Yeah, he sensed their time was up. It was like only a matter of time before they got dead. And then she's like, yeah, he's probably thinking better that you're not here to watch us die. Yeah, I mean, that was good that she got to be the one to say hey i'm leaving and it seemed understood in the friendship that that was

probably how it was always going to go anyways i just wish like just for her i mean i feel like at the end of it it's like an interesting time in her life to reflect on later, where for them it's their life and it's going to end any minute. Yeah. I wish there were, there was at least one moment where she maybe just like stood up for herself a little more or was like,

you can't, don't treat me like that. Don't talk to me like that. I mean, maybe that would have made it cheesy and maybe it's not needed, but just because there's another scene when they're in Bolivia, they have just arrived and they realize what a shithole it is. Sundance is complaining about it. And Etta's like, I'm not sure we're accomplishing as much as we might here. And then Sundance says, listen, your job is to back me up because you'd starve without me.

Just like another one of those. You're a woman and you suck and you're annoying me. But again, what you're saying probably just, you know, he's lashing out because he doesn't know what else to say. Please don't leave me even though I brought you to a shithole with llamas. Like, hang out, I'm sorry there are pigs.

And then Butch says something like, oh, you know, he'll feel better when he's robbed a few banks to try to smooth things over but i don't know i just wanted her to be like i don't know from a from like just a writing perspective so that that for me was like an example of like oh here's a woman expressing her opinion as a setup for this funny goof the two guys are going to do and i know that it goes deeper than that but just like on the page it's like a lot of times when Etta does express an opinion, it's a setup for Butch to get a good old quip in.

That's true. And that's like, meh. I'm also trying hard. I brought this movie to the table for a podcast about women and media, and this is an interesting look that has goods and bads. And I see a lot of the goods, and I've decided to buy the story the way that I want it to be. But I think that's a way to interpret the movie. But, yeah, it's – I don't think you're wrong.

I mean, there are movies that treat women horribly and have the women characters not stand up for themselves. And I hate them because of that. And yet I still love this movie. Sure. still love this movie sure and i think and i think this is a good this is an interesting conversation in general because usually it's there aren't as many grays in terms of how women are treated especially in a movie from this era like usually it's pretty like yeah this sucks let's list let's list it or like wow this it's moana and it's like we're inspired like there is a lot of gray area here and there's something to the fact that if I watch a movie where women are being portrayed

in a way that's fucking ridiculous and terrible, I'm angry on a social level for women. Treat women better. What are you doing to her? And in this film, it's like, Etta, stand up for yourself. It's the character I want to see make that action,

which represents an investment in the film and the story. Sure. Like, you know, it's a bigger social issue. Women should in general speak out for what they want and exhibit leadership and do all that shit because it proves helpful. It did in Bolivia because she does exert a little bit of leadership, just a little bit with teaching Spanish. You see how the sass back works. There's some cute there. Yeah.

But I know I'm rooting for her. And I know that part of her leaving is like Sundance is bad for her. Sundance is not only like a shitty boyfriend, but he's going to get her killed. Sure, it's amazing. It's different from the rest of your life. And it's fucking Robert, ride or die, Dom. I'll get in so many car accidents for you. And I love Fast and Furious movies.

I love garbage. Oh, I was going to refer to Baby Driver, which I recently saw, where it's like a woman who barely knows this dude is like, I'll follow you into hell. And I don't know you, but I'll. So, yeah, that's a good point. I like that she's like, well, I'm probably going to die if I stay here with you guys. I had my excitement. I had my fun. Now it's time to go back to the States and get my PhD.

Right. That was another thing that impressed me about Etta's character. Because, like you're saying, ride or die, Dom, they're in big movies when they decide to take the lady along. She's there to serve a couple purposes, set up a couple jokes, maybe get one kick in and then get swatted. And bounce off a wall. Right. And then at the end get a big old kiss. And that is how it goes i would also reference transformers oh yeah god as the you know whichever whichever

one happens to be in whichever movie um it switches a couple times so it is interesting to see a woman you know who is brought along for the ride to be like, I'm good. This seems dangerous. Yeah. That was cool and, like, exerts a... I felt like that exerted a realistic amount of power that she would have. Because it would have been weird to see, you know, like you were saying, Caitlin,

like, guns blazing, Etta suddenly is, like... She does, though. Like... Like, she has the little... She dresses up like she's one of the boys... Like, literally one of the boys like literally one of the boys in the hat and they're in the tree they're in the tree and she doesn't shoot a person but she does shoot uh and i think that's on purpose like i think she could shoot a person

if she wanted i have two thoughts but this one's coming up faster that etta i got a little scared for etta in the in that second third of the movie where she's in Bolivia. I don't know how hacks work. And starts to, maybe she's done this before. We don't know. Maybe she's been robbing banks with them the whole time. But I kind of thought when rewatching, I got a little scared that like, oh man, this is when you have sex in the horror movie.

Or you know what I mean? Like this is the thing you do that gets you killed. And I think, you know, as the the film progresses that's not the case she's that is perfectly permissible moral territory in this story it's when butch and sundance kill the robbers yeah that's when fates are sealed and edda edda's realizing that there's she can't like they're never going to get out of this no matter what side of the coin they're on oh because she's like you know there's other ways to go straight you can be farmers ranchers and they're just like we don't know how to do that we can steal cattle yeah and she's like all right i better go see ya yeah i i do like that the story does not ask her to martyr herself right because she does i mean it's it's not a perfect life but

she does have a life she has a job and it's clear that that's not enough. I mean, a job, who is that enough for? It's independence, but at a cost. Right, right. There are other ways in her life to derive purpose, and I think she realizes that enough to not martyr herself for her two fuckboy friends who are fun. She leaves the fuckboys.

She leaves the fuckboys. How many of us can say like looking at the relationship between the three of them can you imagine a fast and the furious where letty also loves paul walker whose name i forget in the movie who should just be paul walker it's just it's another one it's another one syllable boy name that you can yell on your knees in the desert yeah it's It's not Jake, but it's basically Jake. It's sort of Jake. God damn it. I love those movies.

So many of my... Jake! Yeah. I should know that. I'm going to say I should know that name, but I don't right now. Where Letty loves both of them and they're okay with it. Right. Like, there's nothing they're hiding from each other.

It's just, I think that's an interesting power to give a woman in a relationship. The license to like have emotions beyond laser focus on a man this film does not pass the bechdel test by a long mile i would say that there are essentially only three characters like as much as you don't see any of the women in the brothel at the beginning you don't also don't see any of the hole in the wall gang beyond one scene like ancillary characters have a scene in this movie it's mostly b character yeah yeah uh yeah woodcock twice i think yeah three times yes twice yeah that's my boy but it's the three of them totally i just appreciate how much emotional power she had to be able to like she doesn't have to

we don't see her lying to protect sundance we don't see her avoiding Butch because it's just too much. They have that whole montage together on the bicycle, which, speaking of movies that are inspired by Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Spider-Man 2. I was going to say, that was my Alfred Molina connection. That was my Alfred Molina connection for that one. Of course. Parts I would have liked to see Alfred Molina play in this movie.

Butch Cassidy. The Sundance Kid. Etta. Yes. He's a talent. He can do any of it. He can do it all. No, he would have been a great B character in this movie if only he weren't like whatever,

like 13 when this movie came out. Right, right, right, right. Oh, yeah. He was 16 when that movie came out. He was a little, oh man. I bet Alfred Molina loves this movie came out. Right, right, right, right. Oh, yeah. He was 16 when that movie came out. He was a little... Oh, man. I bet Alfred Molina loves this movie. I bet he does.

I'm willing to bet he loves this movie. If he would only tweet back at us, we would know. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. We are going to go on strike at some point until he pays attention to us. I do not support this strike. Let the record reflect.

I am going to leave town. I'm going to leave the country. I am going to leave town. I'm going to leave the country. I'm going to go to Bolivia. I'll get a scab. I'm going to get a scab co-host. If you're going to leave, I'll stay. A scab? A scab.

Caitlin and Caitlin, I'm pitching it now. I'm just kidding. Scab it up. Stepping over your body on the picket line. Sorry, Jamie. You'll never hear me again. Have you seen Angie Tribeca? Yes. Okay, good. that's all i wanted to know

we can leave that there i just wanted to make sure on the record that you have witnessed that alfred molina performance because i love it so much so good alfred molina's in every he's he's dying up here right now he was in feud this year he was killing it he's like everybody wants a piece of this man and who can blame him he He's a beefcake. There's enough to go around. How much Lena? More Lena. Oh! Love it! Caitlin, we'll leave the building now. Freddy. Wait, I got an important... People call him Freddy, not Al.

Oh, really? Yep. I have an important thing to say. Yes. The boat that they travel to Bolivia on reminds me of Titanic. Titanic. Titanic. Oh, see,

we got it in there. We have to always, you know, there's certain things we have to check in about. Yeah. Just to make sure that we're doing well. But I wanted to make another point about Etta. Cause you could argue that she makes all her decisions based on a man. She goes with them because because she's involved with them

and she has a life there in whatever state they're in. I don't know if it's ever hard to say. No, because I think Lord Baltimore. Which sounds like Lord Voldemort every time they say it. The other guy, LeFleur. Le Force Never Leaves Montana? Oh, I thought it was Wyoming. I don't remember it's those states those states where the buffalo roam so yeah edda makes this decision based on not really what she wants what these men want and want for her but then you could also kind of argue

well she's like well this is the only excitement i've ever known maybe she's doing it for well let's talk about fulfillment exactly what that's another thing about the character that Like, well, this is the only excitement I've ever known. Maybe she's doing it for her own fulfillment. Exactly. That's another thing about the character that I thought was like, oh, this is a little bit different for a big movie. It's like her motivation is not cut and dry. I have to do this because my father or my family or whatever. She's seeking out. She wants something interesting to happen in her life.

And she wants companions that are interesting. She just wants, like, you know, to not be bored. And that, I feel like, is a very realistic motivation that you don't usually see. And then on the other hand, Butch and Sundance, their motivations are usually a lot cleaner of, like, this is what we have to do and this is where we have to go to do it. I don't know because i think like it's looking at that opening scene with butch like they don't know where to go next they know that they can't like everything's catching up to them and it's beating them like we see that happen on the chase scenes which i love like the thundering horse noises like as it pulls out that built tension for me I can also see it not working, but I love the long chases.

And part of that is, like, feeling this sense of them losing. Like, it's not going to last. The gravy train is spilling gravy on the tracks, and it's going to show up empty. Like, they just don't have any more options. Well, that, and I left out this scene from the recap, but there's the scene where Butch and Sundance go back to the hole in the wall gang and another dude has taken over. Yeah. So Butch fights him. Harvey, I think, is his name.

You can't want Harvey. Harvey is the guy who plays Jaws, I think, in Moonraker in the James Bond movies. Oh. I think it's the same guy. It might not be, but if not, it's like a seven foot tall other guy. Speaking of Harvey. Mild cherubism, that's one of my favorite movies. Harvey? I love Harvey.

Oh, yeah. With James Stewart? Yeah. Oh, baby, it's so good. For a second, I thought Harvey was milk, because Harvey was milk, and I was thinking of milk, and I was like, oh, I haven't seen any of those movies. Well, Sean Penn's a monster. Both of those movies are good.

They're both good movies. Yeah, Sean, yeah. Yeah. I know. Everybody's monsters. Can we have nothing everybody's monster can we have nothing but in that scene so um he defeats this harvey guy butch kicks him in the crotch and then he's hits him in the face yeah um so he remains their leader and then they're like well what's going on and they're like oh we were gonna rob the fly? And they're like, oh, we were going to rob the flyer on the way there and then on the way back.

And he's like, Harvey thought of that? And they're like, yeah, well, that's exactly what we'll do. Like, his glory days are over. So maybe they're all searching for purpose in a vaguer way that you don't see a lot.

I don't know. Like, I think that that is both something about the movie that I think is very cool and different and also why it didn't fully work for me just because of my own tastes. Sure. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and then another thing about that is that in a movie like this, especially like a Western where to use the phrase prickly exterior. Sure. Cactus. There's so many cactus men. There's like, you have your like John Waynes, who like rarely showed any sort of vulnerability

or is just like, oh, I'm a man and I'm a tough man. But in this movie, you see like Butch and Sundance being kind of vulnerable with each other sometimes. Like, I can't swim. I never learned how to swim. I've never shot a guy before. Like they're revealing these secrets about themselves. And it's like, kiss. I know, know just kiss already they tell each other their names and where they're from yeah and it was just nice to see because a lot of for this genre and for

this era there was just like so much like toxic masculinity that was portrayed and so it was these guys are sad and And they're scared. And they're, you know, they know what's coming. And they can't stop it. I mean, it is a Western, but it really, like, it's also a character piece.

Right. About three people who are intertwined in a time that's on a very finite line. You know, they're not... This movie came out in 69, yes? 69.

Interesting to mention, same year as Midnight Cowboy. Oh, yeah, yeah. So many cowboy movies that year. The Midnight kind are a little different. Some take the fuck people for money. I guess cowboys did that, too. Who knows?

Everybody's doing that. Who's not doing that? I did that yesterday. Sex sells, baby. Segway to, we haven't really talked about the- You mean sex way sorry yeah i liked it i like every pun given to me it hurts so good there's not a lot of female b characters but i did want to talk about um most of the female

b characters that we see are somehow allied with the whorehouse. And there is one scene, it is a character with a name. I forget exactly what her name is. Fanny? No, no, it's a girl that Newman's kissing. How am I supposed to give someone the attention she deserves? It's a funny, it's like Rhonda or something. It's, yeah, it's again using a woman as a punchline, but what is

the... Agnes? Agnes. Agnes, yes. One of my middle names, I should have known there's uh more than one that's weird okay people are weird that is a scottish there's uh but the yeah agnes is like kind of like dry humping paul newman kind of and this is the scene where sundance is like working and you know butch is always he's looking around he's looking out the window and he's like are we being followed and yeah they're dry humping on the bed nearby and then and then agnes is like like we know butch is not fully paying attention and whatever it's silly but you know like her

only lines are like you're the only real man i've ever met butch and then you're just like and then she sort of like makes this weird little speech about how she's not like the other girls and he's just not listening to her the whole about how she's not like the other girls. And he's just not listening to her the whole time. Where she's like, you're the only real man I've ever met. And all the other girls don't understand that about you. And then he's like, wait, Sundays, what's going on? And it's just completely ignoring her.

And it is funny to watch. But that is maybe one of the only other lines spoken by a woman in the movie and it's basically a joke there's a there's another one but before i get to that i love so that scene ends whenever they literally like dive out the window because lord baltimore and lord laforge lord valdemore he used his and jordy LaForge have arrived. He cast a fine butch and Sundance spell, and then he finds them, and then so he... So fucking dumb. Oh, God.

But another scene where a woman's on screen and even has lines. Whoa! Well, I'll be goddamn. Is that another Titanic? Yeah. That's a Kathy Bates original. I'll be God damn.

Oh, no, wait. No, that's Gloria Stewart. Oh, yeah. And then it's Gloria Stewart's granddaughter who fucks Bill Paxton, Rest in Paradise. Remember, that's like the bit at the beginning where, oh, and Bill Paxton says it. Well, I'll be God damn. Who wrote that movie? I'm sick. wrote that movie that was oh god what a rush i think it's bill paxton granddaughter gloria stewart oh you never say let's just go watch

titanic anyway so a woman there it's the second time they robbed the flyer a woman gets off the train and it's like storming toward them she's like i'm a grandmother and a female and i've got my right i fought liquor and i fought gambling and i can fight you and then cut to her being like restrained by sundance with his hand over her mouth and uh so she doesn't really do a good job of fighting them but i like that she makes the effort she gets off this train she yells at them and i was like you you go girl she doesn't get shot she just gets put back on the train what a bard to set i know she does not get shot it's low it's low but that again that was another thing where i'm like oh man i wish that that wasn't funny but i'm laughing right yeah

it's it is good performances too like i i mean i've stopped being able to watch this is just like a movie happening to me and it's hard not to step back and look at like each scene and like how it was shot and all the choices and i mean it's a lot of fun it's not enough women the roles for women are real thin but i think the performances and the writing was strong enough to bring a lot out of what we do get to see from women in this movie and katherine ross man i feel like i know so much about that character and she has like 25 lines she does a lot she does a lot with what she's that's another point i wanted to make a question i wanted to pose which is if you take out her character

how different is the movie i think it would be a bit tonally different but i don't think like story-wise she doesn't do a lot a lot to actually affect the progression of the story so well i think her main function i mean if we were to and correct me if i'm wrong but the main thing that she does in the movie that no one else could do, because she shoots that one time, but Butch and Sundance can shoot. They didn't need her to do that. The one thing she can do is teach, and that is something they cannot do, and she has the knowledge to teach them Spanish. But when she tries to do that, they're like, we don't care. Yeah.

So it's like. Well, she also robs the bank in Bolivia in the most, the least violent way. Right. And it's so not violent. So they dress up super fancy, Sundance and Etta dress up all posh and then walk into a bank. It's a good con. She poses as the concerned wife. This is all music.

You don't hear any dialogue for this. Right. But you can tell that she is posing as like the concerned wife that doesn't want to put her jewels in an unsafe bank. And the manager overhears and is completely sweetened by her, brings them down past all the bank employees, down to the vault, goes into the safe and opens the safe for them to show them how safe it is. And that's when the gun comes out. And he just kind of puts his hands up.

She takes all the money out of the safe. Sundance locks him behind the gates and he reaches out to hand something i think it's a little jewel that she left behind like he reaches through the bars and then smiles and puts his hands back up right and like her laugh when she's leaving is just one of those like it's a it's just a great scene like it's such a fun performance to watch because you know like she left for some kind of adventure and to be a part of something and she's like in it she's totally doing it i don't think you can take her out of this movie she's its axis like they are spinning out trying to figure out where they land

like yeah she's the gravity that holds them to life in general they don't have a lot they don't love this life like the love and what they enjoy is like when they get to take trips together when they're to, you know, it's I think it's a story about three people. And I don't think you can remove any one of the three, even though they do make all the decisions. But men were the only ones allowed to carry money and shit. You could like it was. I don't think it would be accurate to say that she's the one who's going to be the boss because that's not the three of them anyway and i don't think that was women at the time but i can't imagine it without her where would sundance go you know when that's like i i think how would butch know where he was gonna be like why would the memories they share matter beyond because it's not like they're just one in the hole in the wall gang like they're bonded beyond just being buddies but then that my where that stops for me is like, well, then is she just there to give the male characters more depth? And like, is she there to, right. Yeah, I think that's true.

I think that is her purpose. Yeah, right. And so the balance between her providing them with depth and sensitivity and them providing her with that is not, you know, right. I don't think you can take her out, but I don't think that she's,

I don't think that she's an equal player. I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise I don't want to be in the title. I don't want to, I don't want to believe that. Uh,

but I'm filling in, I can spin a web around this movie that suggests that. And I want to, so I do, but you're totally right. I mean, a web around this movie that suggests that. And I want to, so I do. But you're totally right. I mean, I don't know. Like, more could have been done to give her a more crucial role or just be like, hey, well, why not? Like, you were using this method of robbing banks. What if it was her idea to, like, let's pose as a married couple and like something like that like i don't i just wish

that we would have seen her making more important decisions or contributing more to this story even if they had taken a little interest in spanish i was like well she had a little bit but i mean but he did he wrote a cheat sheet he couldn't even yeah i don't know he did cheat classic butch they also don't read great. Like, it takes them a long time to read a newspaper article. And they still have to ask her to say it out loud for exposition. And also because they can't. They cannot read.

I mean, maybe not. Man, don't date an illiterate. Have some sense. How many options did you have? He's handsome. This was like, you know, we were building houses out of sticks. You know who could read for sure? Woodcock. Woodcock could definitely read for sure? Woodcock.

Woodcock could definitely read. Woodcock loved books. What if she goes home and- Bookies Woodcock. Yeah. His arms healed. They both loved Butch and Son Nance. You remember what Woodcock said.

Listen, if there was my money, there's nobody I'd rather let steal it. He's literally a fan. They were both charmed. I love him. Woodcock, I hope you would have found each other. I think yeah he would be because that's a man

who would listen to a woman you know he's a beta a beta man Woodcock goes down on you for an entire episode of Ghost Hunters Woodcock was the only man

in that town that knew where the clitoris was for sure he totally did for sure and like I mean with a name

like Woodcock how could you not that's just the plot that's a Woodcock, how could you not? That's just the plot. That's a very nuanced way. Glitters. Glitters. Glasscock.

You look for a man named Glasscock. Glasscock. And then just hope he doesn't go too hard. Or you're obliterated. Woodcock too. Woodcock. That's true. That's true. I'm going to make up a name called Skincock, and that would be the best.

Human Fleshcock. I am Mrs. Human Fleshcock. Perfect. I married into the Human Fleshcock. Oh, the Human Fleshcocks from Connecticut? Oh, no. We're the New Hampshire Human Fleshcocks. Are you the Boston Dawsons?

No, the Chippewa Falls Dawsons. We're Chippewa Falls Dawsons, actually. And you're just like, ugh. I know what ice fishing is. You're going to go down with this ship, aren't you, ladies? I'll see myself out. I'll see myself out. I'll be goddang.

Oh, boy. Okay, does anyone have any final thoughts about the movie? Thanks for doing this one i know it's weird i like what you said about gray area i think that's true i think i think that that is what's interesting about talking about this movie yeah i love it but i know that i'm shining a light on it and i want to see it from a certain perspective but i think it is a worthy watch and i think if you're curious about a movie especially from a time when from a different time uh about a different time uh where women have a little bit more complexity or control or

are allowed to have a life that's different from a cookie cutter i think this is a good exploration of that and it's watching an actress really make the most yeah a different performance would have made this character insufferably bad but her reserve and her face and how much sadness and hope and unstaking herself like you see her do it i just think it's uh her performance stands up with in fact there's something to be said for having less on the page and getting just as much out of a character as two big-name, highly paid actors that are given all the screen time in your movie. I think you can't take her out of that story, but I think that's a lot because of what Catherine Ross brought to the table. I keep worrying I'm saying her name wrong. Or saying the wrong name.

That's Catherine Ross, another one of my middle names. It's weird. Scottish people are weird. Wait, you have Caitlin and Catherine? Caitlin Roskill is the name on my thing. Agnes Colbert Ross. It's just a bunch of old lady names stuffed in their name for some reason that has to do

with a crest with a fucking lion on it. I don't know. Scots are weird. Love a good crest. Love a good crest. I just got the one. The one crest? Oh, I don't know we're Irish we probably have a crest

somewhere I have two final points I would like to please share one is whenever Sundance early on in the movie

they get to the brothel and Butch is you know smooching a lady a prostitute that he has a sex worker he's a

right I don't know what's appropriate do you use the term that was appropriate what's appropriate. Do you use the term that was appropriate at the time, or do you use the term that is appropriate now? I don't know. I don't know what the bar is. She's a sex worker. Women in that era.

Hats off. So they're canoodling. Hats on you. Sorry, they're canoodling. And Sundance, he stands up and he's like, I'm going to go find myself a woman. And I'm not picky as long as she's smart, pretty, sweet and gentle and tender and refined. They wouldn't just find themselves slowly raising their hand as he made that speech. But I would just like to point out that the first thing he said is smart.

I want to have sex with this movie. I want to get this movie erect, and I want it to be inside my body. I mean, I'll do it as a lady. I want to eat this movie out. See, that's how I feel about Spider-Man, too. I am sure. I want to suck the clothes. I want to suck the claws.

Put the claw inside me. I'll suffer the consequences. I know the claws get mad, but I'll take my chances. The other point I want to make is that while you pointed out women of this era that the movie is set in couldn't own land or, you know, do much of anything, vote anything. But you know what else you weren't allowed to do? Rob banks. And that's what Butch and Sundance do. So I feel like you could have written a character where she was like, I don't know, just more being a badass or doing things that she wasn't that wasn't proper for her to do because the guys were OK to do it. So I don't know, just more being a badass or doing things that wasn't proper for her to do because the guys were okay to do it.

So, I don't know. That's just some food for thought. But who am I to say? I feel ya. Yeah, you're just a dumb lady. I'm just a dumb lady with a small brain. I mean, I want to, yeah, I want to think of her as more than like the bored teacher who takes a pole dancing class to feel interesting. And no shade on you, girl.

Hit that pole. It's a fun class. It's a great workout. You're going to look great. You just described three of my cousins. Oh, I'm thinking of people that I love and care about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like there's folks who get kind of trapped into a life and wish they could have something more exciting.

And there's people who are perfectly happy and don't want any more excitement. Right. And then we all know weirdos who live on the edge all the time and have never been trapped in any kind of normal life. And good for them. Good on them.

Thinks she's one in the middle. I gotta be a little, I mean, I gotta be a little bit boring. There's parts of my life where I'm like, we're gonna keep this boring as fuck. On paper, I am so exciting. In reality, i am a walking netflix cube i am a sentient i am a couch in motion sometimes a couch with a pulse yeah yeah

so we as we have mentioned the movie does not pass the bechdel test doesn't even come close not even close there's no close calls to discuss. Only three characters, though, for real. I keep hovering. There is a central female character that could have been more, but I would not describe her as less than. There are two scenes where it's like,

we're at a brothel, but we are in a room full of women. Give us a throwaway. But it doesn't happen. What did you have for dinner? Ro and this was my name's and talk but then it wouldn't pass the test because they're talking about right so minus that line and then and then she's like what's your name again jenny what's yours i'm suzanne and then that would be it the thing is if we every time we have to write a bechdel scene into a movie it's very boring it has to be with characters like that have actual character that's that would be great

yeah but this was written by william goldman right who was mentor to aaron sorkin so we can watch the long finger of the inability to write women who can relate to each other stretch into the modern day like so many women who do so well with being on par with men like a cj craig or whatever but when you when it gets down to like two women doing two women things that is like uh that's when the girls go to the bathroom together we don't know what they're doing in there uh-huh uh. Aaron Sorkin. Dust blow punches a mirror. What a chode. I'm riding here. He's dying up there, man. Well, William Goldman also wrote The Princess Bride.

Oh, yeah. Also spectacularly fails the Bechdel test. Yeah. And has definitely, yeah, I should listen to that one because I'm sure you said all the things

that I'm about to say now. I do like the cast but I haven't listened to that one. That movie makes me sad and it really scared me when I was a kid so I'm weird about it.

What, that was another one that I just didn't... The Rack, man. It was like seven or something when that came out in the theater. Like, no, you're daring. I didn't like it.

Also Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves. Anyway, now we're going into the Rivals. Ooh, that's a fun one. Saw those't like it. Also, Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves. Anyway, now we're going into the novel. Ooh, that's a fun one. Saw those way too early. Antonio Banderas' Zorro was the first movie

that really scared me. That was a good one. I also got scared in Crocodile Dundee, so don't use me as a judge. Lots of scary summer movies we're talking about right now. The Garfield Halloween special

gave me nightmares for months. That's real. That's real. Let's get back on track and rate the movie with our nipple scale yes our scale of zero to five nipples where we rate the movie based on its portrayal of women i'm going to give it a oh god you brought up some interesting points that i because i was gonna give it like a one yeah nipple and then i was like well you know she does have a tiny smidge of agency whereby she's

like i make this choice because i want excitement but i just it's so frustrating to see her treated so poorly by her boyfriend and even though there's subtext to the things he's saying he still rarely if ever actually comes out and says like i love you i cherish you i i appreciate you so it's frustrating to just see her constantly be treated poorly by the man who's supposed to love her so i'm gonna stick with i'm gonna stick with the one as much as i really like this movie i just there could have it just could have been better. Who are you giving the nipple to? The nipple belongs... Oh. Maybe I should give it

two nipples just so Paul Newman can have one and Robert Redford can have one. And they can touch and then I'll be in his life. Okay, here's what it is. It's one nipple but it's a hybrid between Paul Newman and Robert Redford.

I do kind of want that. I didn't think I did. But I bet one half is like hairier. Yeah, but like who's? We don't know. We'll have to watch other movies to find out. I'm pretty sure Cool Name Luke reveals a lot about Paul Newman's split bills. Oh, yeah, you do.

You see his, after he eats all the eggs, he's shirtless. And he's like, he's got that bulging stomach. But anyway, it's a hybrid between the two of their nipples. And it's the most perfect nipple to have ever grazed the planet Earth. The most perfect nipple to never drip a drop. Men can like that. Really? I think so.

I have a lot to learn I only know The only thing I know about nipples Is that cats have eight of them This has been Cat Facts with Caitlin Hey Siri Can men lactate? My web search turns something up for can men lactate

Have a look Strange but true Males can lactate The Scientific American That's a credible source Get me one of those Lactate. Have a look. Strange but true. Males can lactate. The Scientific American. That's a credible source. Get me one of those. I want to milk my boyfriend.

What do you think's in the middle of Numenos? What do you think's in those salad dressing bottles? Milk of Newman. Yes. Okay. Who else wants to rate the movie? I'll give it a one and a half, because, Caitlin, you sold me on a lot of points about Etta that I hadn't thought about before.

Which Caitlin? Grow up. Other Caitlin, I'm other Caitlin. But there was a lot that I hadn't thought about that sort of made me think of Etta in a different way. And then the rest of the nipples are just like, this is not a women's story. There's not a lot of women included in it. Which happens.

Get it. Especially in 1969 it happens a lot. But as usual all the B character women we see we could have gotten way more interesting, better mileage out of and that is, you know, failed to do so and when women are there, they're either there as A a a joke

or b to deliver some exposition yeah every line that fanny has the one woman who is not fucked is to give information to butch or sundance so that you know not something we've never encountered one and a half naples i'm giving i'm giving him the woodcock. I like it. Woodcock. Yeah. I'm sorry, do you mean human flesh cock? He for sure lactates. He wakes up every morning bulging with milk. And has to like pump. Never has to go to the store to eat cereal.

No. He just shakes himself around. I like woodcock. Anyways. Oh, it's a great actor whose name I forget, but he's in a million things. He's in a lot of stuff? Yeah. Oh, he's so funny. I feel like he's in Blazing Saddles, too. I'm not going to get to that name, but I will tell you that I would give it three nipples.

Less than what I want, because when I look at it the way I want to, not acknowledging all the very accurate things you have said about the structure of the film and what role women serve in the narrative of the film. I appreciate that they're not doing lip service to, like, there's no easy lady in this movie. There's no lady that shows that this era was fun or exciting. It all looks pretty bleak for women. Yeah. But there is a lot more we could have done with those characters. I just think that Etta is a very interesting look at, I don't know, what it was like to be a woman in that time.

And also sort of a timeless look at what it's like to be in love with complicated people. And what love looks like and how many weird shapes and forms it takes. It's an interesting look. She's an amazing character. And we've talked a lot about, for a movie with like, that deserves one nipple, there's a lot to say about the women in this movie

and what's going on with them. I'm going to give it three and I will hand them out to the three in the triad so everybody has a nipple to lick on. A single nip. That woman who's like,

I'm a grandmother and a female and I know my rights. I just want to know what rights she thinks she has. Exactly. Yeah, you have the right to yell at a man. That's essentially, and he has a legal right to hit you.

So let's not forget his rights because they are longer. That list is longer. I will say that I think there are women in movies that have a lot more screen time, a lot more lines, and a lot more kind of to do even with a plot that are a far worse portrayal of women and femininity. Like, I think her screen time is not points against her. Yeah, I'd agree with that for sure.

I'm defending it like, come on! It's good! It's good! Change! I think my hybrid nipple counts for two nipples, so let's go with that. I don't need to twist anybody's arm. You're right. Well, Caitlin Gill,

thank you so much for being here. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. I'm going to go get, it's 7-Eleven, guys. I'm going to go get a free Slurpee. Slurp, slurp, slurp, slurp, slurp. It's like what you said

about going down on the movie. Hell yeah. I want to eat this movie out. And that's what it's going to sound like. I want to pour it like cool, like warm, not hot. I want to eat this movie out. And that's what it's going to sound like. I want to pour it like cool, like warm, not hot. I want to pour like movie butter on it. You know, movie popcorn butter. And I want to eat that movie's box.

Okay, good. Very good. That movie would be so lucky. Hey, I mean, ask my girlfriend. I can't. Yeah, that was gross. Where can people find you online? Oh, God.

You can find me at RobotCaitlin on Twitter, at CaitlinMastalas on Instagram, and also upcoming performances include, but are not limited to, what is the name of that goddamn festival I'm doing? Pickathon? Pickathon. Thank you.

You'd think I'd know, but I'm a woman and my brain's soft. Pickathon in Portland, August 5th. And then later in August, I'll be in Denver for the High Plains Comedy Festival. And I'm excited about both of those. Hell yeah. You can find us on the web as well. Hey, I've got, I realize I've got some dates coming out in early August too.

Please share. Yeah, you want to, hey, you live in Fort Wayne, Indiana? Do you? Interesting choice. You can see me at Let's Fest on August 4th and 5th. I'll be out there. And I'm going to Detroit, going to Fargo, North Dakota, going up to Winnipeg at some point.

I don't have it in front of me because my calendar makes no sense and it's mostly typos. But you weren't going to write it down anyway, so you go find it online. For crying out loud, you figure it out. I don't know. Come to Fort Wayne. That's the only place I know I can remember. Hey, and we are doing a live episode of the Bechdelcast.

Hell yeah. For the Cinderblock Comedy Festival on September 9th. So you can see us live there if you live in Brooklyn or somewhere nearby. And you can follow us at Bech you live in brooklyn or somewhere nearby and you can follow us at bechtel cast on twitter and on instagram and if you like us and you want to see us struggle financially less oh it was like they love to see us struggle financially but if you don't love that and you want to give us some money we have a paypal account and i know that paypal is an evil corporation and it funds trump

and oh honey what is it right true we've got to live you can write us a check and send it to me by mail if you don't want to go through paypal but but your checks are coming from a bank that's just you know there's no winning we need money right now whatever is the easiest way to give us your money use it i won't judge you but we do have a PayPal account, so if you go to paypal.me slash spectralcast. If you like our podcast and you want to just throw us a few dollars, we'd appreciate it. That would be super. Otherwise,

giddy up! Because that's a cowboy thing to say. Yee-haw! Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated Crooks Everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks She exposed the culture of crime and corruption

that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. Don't miss Catherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.