The Bechdel Cast - Captain America: The First Avenger

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

On today's episode, Captain Caitlin and General Jamie get injected with super podcaster serum and discuss Captain America: The First Avenger (2011). Here are the pieces we reference in the episode -- "‘This is injustice’: how leftist zines were used to sentence anti-ICE protesters to decades in prison" - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2026/jun/24/prairieland-texas-ice-protests-zines | "Marvel’s Military Industrial Complex" - https://inkstickmedia.com/marvels-military-industrial-complex/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Do you want to go to a dance? Yes, I do I've never danced with a woman before though I don't know how to do it Maybe because you're Chris Evans' head on Jeremy Strong's body That's kind of making things difficult Did you see that Jeremy Strong was almost the body double? No

Yes, yes. For Short King Steve Rogers, they almost composited Chris Evans, first of all, very large seven-foot-tall manhead onto Jeremy Strong's live body. And that would have been historic. Is Jeremy Strong small? He is. He's, he's Jeremy Small. I think, and by small, I mean, I think, 5'7, because I did, I went so deep on the body double here because it looked so, like the most. There's, I mean, the most 2011 thing about this to me because the military industrial complex is timeless. Of course. The most 2011 thing to me is a lot of the graphics and specifically Steve Rogers 1.0, I could not. I could not. Every time you see him from a new angle, you're like, who is this? It's really bizarre to look at.

Yeah. It cracked me up. Let's see how tall Jeremy Strong is. And then add one inch because I think that that's usually how that works with celebrity height. Sure, sure, sure, sure. It says he's 5'10. So let's say 58, 5.7. Okay.

Right. So, yeah. And then Chris Evans is, I don't even, God knows, 400 feet tall. No, he's six feet. Oh. You're telling me Chris Evans that I don't understand. I know that the body double they went with,

not to immediately, like, talk about men's bodies for, like, 20 minutes. We're objectifying men. I think it's okay. We're objectifying men. And I'm not short shaming. anyone. If you're a long-time listener of the show, I love a short king. But the composite looks so bizarre. Yeah, no, it's the effects that's the problem. It's, it's Benjamin Button gone

worse. It's so weird. Yeah. But yes, his actual shout out to his, uh, to not Jeremy Strong, who was the body double, who is 5-7 and Chris Evans' giant head. Yeah, the body double is Leanderdeany. Yeah, who plays a bartender in one of the scenes. which a fact I tried to get excited about, but unfortunately, everything about this movie is so boring. Welcome to the Bechtel cast. My name's Jamie Laughness. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our podcast where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. Yes. I feel like, look, if you don't know what that is, listen to another episode, look it up.

There's just so much to get into today. Okay. Coming in a lot. And also, I mean, let's just get it away, get it done at the top. This movie doesn't pass the bechal test. So it's not even really, that's not really what our show is about. And if you came here to find that out, guess what? Grow up. To no one's surprise, it does not pass the bechal test. And I think kind of bears through that spirit throughout the film.

But we are talking about Captain America, the first Avenger 2011. The reason we're talking about that quick plug is because we pulled our Patreon, a.k.a. Matrion audience because around this time of year, although we are not Fourth of July heads ourselves for maybe obvious reasons, hell no. We tend to cover a piece of either satire on America or American propaganda. So we put up a list of options for our matrons. I was really hoping that Dr. Strangelove would pull through. But unfortunately, Unfortunately, and shout out to our matrons. Thank you so much.

$5 a month gets you access to two new episodes a month with just Caitlin and me and a back catalog of over 200 episodes. Wow. And the amazing thing about our matrons, and I totally understand, is that they will often vote for a movie they know we will hate and have a lot to say about. Which I suspect is why we are today talking about Captain America, the first Avenger. Because, I mean, this poll was chaos. Neck and. Chaos. It was chaos.

We put up five movies. But originally we were going to do an American tale, but neither of us could get through it. So we were like, never mind, pass, maybe another time. Yeah, we just did land before time. And we're just like, I think we've hit our Don Bluth quota for the year. Yeah. See you next year, Dawn. Exactly.

So among the five movies that we posted were Captain America, which obviously won the poll, is why we're doing it today. But then there was also Team America, World Police, and Dr. Strange Love. That was what you were rooting for, and that I was rooting for Dr. Strange Love. I would have also been very happy doing Dr. Strange Love. All three of these movies came within a few votes of each other. It was the closest race for first place on the Matrion, I think I've ever seen. I'm going to, I'm going to call it for next year. Well, I mean, even we could do it on the Matrion if we wanted. We could just do those two next year. True. But I do think, unfortunately, Unfortunately, while it's the movie I was least excited about, it is.

I think the reasons that I'm not excited about it are also what make it interesting for discussion. True. Because this is fairly early in what would become a very painful for many decade of Marvel release after Marvel release that has only in the last, I think, like three years stopped paying dividends for the Disney Corporation. So before we get into this, I mean, we're going to be talking a lot about American propaganda and American symbols. Yeah. Which is something that, because it's also hot dog season, has been heavily on my mind recently because I keep getting emails about it. But the thing I just wanted to make no-dove before we start, because we talk about the show on the show often, you know, that things that I'm assuming most of our listeners kind of share.

reviews on, which is that America is a failed violent colonial experiment. Yes. It gets kind of worse by the day. And we talk about myriad reasons as to why that is, but a story that has been on my mind a lot this last week and is one that if you're not familiar with it or you haven't seen it coming up in your feed, I would highly encourage you to get to know more about is the prairie land defendants. I think it is like a story that is starting to be discussed more, but is, you know,

you know, very indicative of where we're at right now. So when we're talking about Captain America, we're talking about what does America mean. Right now it means this, which is protesters, anti-ice protesters specifically who were protesting last 4th of July. A handful of them have been given essentially anywhere ranging from 30 years to life, 100 years in prison, for anything ranging from protesting and resisting police violence. to literally just making a leftist zine. That is so chilling to me. There is a defendant, Elizabeth Soto, who was sentenced to 30 years in prison for a protest she didn't even attend for making an anarchist zine.

The FBI raided her and her husband's home, finding, as you can imagine, literally nothing, including a zine that was like, like an Ariaster fanzine and poetry, you know, just things that you know someone who has this literature or you do. It has been explicitly said in their sentencing that this is being done to make an example of protesters. It is an attempt to reclassify any level of resistance. I'm not even talking about particularly radical resistance, any level of resistance as an act of terrorism and of course, you know, classifying Antifa as terrorists, bear that out. If you are sentencing anti-fascist to life in prison,

what does that make you? All things that I know most of our listeners are well aware of and fairly engaged with, but because we're talking American propaganda today, you know, is this the direct result of Captain America? No, but it's asking the question, what ideals is Captain America holding up? And that changes with time, but I don't think it necessarily gets better. So that's my little soapbox for this week. We'll leave a link to more information. There's some great reporting from Lex McManamanaman in The Guardian about this. Big fan of their work.

Highly recommend you check their work out. And yes, there's so much more I could say. But I will just leave it at that. And well, that's Captain America. Let's do it. Thank you for sharing all of that, Jamie. It's real bleak out there. And the irony that like this movie is all about, oh, we have to fight the Nazis.

We have to fight fascism forgetting that the U.S. has always been a fascist country. Well, I mean, I don't think it's forgetting. It's just omitting. omitting, refusing to acknowledge. Yeah. I mean, it's so tricky because it's like, yeah, hard to argue with a character who is, you know, whose original idea was, what if Hitler got punched in the face? And you're like, okay, I'm listening. Okay, I'm listening. Great, great idea. But there's a lot going on. We'll get into it. Yes, we'll get into it. But Jamie, what is your relationship with Captain America, the first Avenger slash Captain America in

general. I think I saw this in theaters. I honestly am not sure. I was trying to go through this with Grant last night. Like my Marvel history is so all over the place. Most of the movies I have seen in the Marvel universe were watching them for the Bechal cast. But I do think this was early enough in the Marvel run that this felt like intriguing enough to give a shot or like maybe I was just board because it came out in the summer. I vaguely remember this coming out. I think I saw it. I did not really retain any of it.

And I certainly did not return for any of the sequels. So yeah, I mean, this truly like outside of even if we're like stepping back from the like propaganda element of it. Because, you know, I saw Superman last year. Yeah. I will, you know, if it seems interesting, I will check it out. And I think that movie had some interesting things to say. I think that that movie was saying something.

You know, it's like in a blockbuster, it's only ever going to say so much. But I'm like, I'm willing to take the journey. But even outside of that, I just like, this is the exact kind of movie that is just like, for me, my eyes are just going to absolutely glaze. So I apologize if there's plot points in this movie that I'm like, uh, what? because I just found it so hard to pay attention to. It's like just not for me. With all due respect, I know that a lot of people have like nostalgia for this movie.

It seems like one of the, I mean, it's definitely less boring than the Marvel movies that were coming out 10 years after this, but that is like a very low bar to clear. Sure. Yeah, I didn't like it. But now I've seen it at least once,

but maybe, also 15 years ago. I will say, you know what, Hugo Weaving ripping his face off? Oh my gosh. That woke me back up. I kept, I kept, I tried to, I truly, I've watched this movie at night. I watched it in the morning. I tried it in the afternoon. Nothing could keep me awake. But Hugo Weaving taking his face off. That got me. That got my ass. Hugo Weaving, ripping his face off and turning into Hugo weaving with red skull makeup on was really shocking. I didn't remember that happening. I had seen this movie before, but I similarly kind of didn't remember anything about it.

It's also like even if you liked this movie when it came out, there were just so many movies that at some point they have to start blurring. I forgot baby Sebastian Stan is in this. Yeah, yeah. He's a guy. he becomes a pretty big part of the MCU. Yes, I knew that. I just didn't know he went back to like the beginning. Yeah.

I did not know that Stanley Tucci was a part of the MCU for 15 minutes. That was news to me. I also, this era, I'm very glad Stanley Tucci moved on from this era of like, I feel like in the like late 2000s, early 2010s, he's like, what if I looked a little scruffy? And I'm like, that's not where he succeeds, I feel. Like this aesthetic for him, the lovely bones character, don't even get me started. I'm like, Stanley Tucci, I need you to play a lovely man. I need you to give me Julie and Julia, Devil Where's Prana.

That's where you live for me. Yes, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I did not remember his presence in this movie. So I guess, yeah, my history with it is I didn't see it in theaters. I would go on to see most MCU movies. in theaters, but because this was one of the earlier ones, and it was before I even realized

that they were building out a cinematic universe. Sure. I had no interest in Captain America as a character, as a superhero. I was like, what the fuck is this? I don't care. I think conceptually, Captain America is the worst, most boring Marvel hero. I, yeah, I've done some, I will say, delight research on his history. And I feel like it's the same reason that it's like hard to make

Superman a fun character to watch where it's like he's just too, like he's just kind of featureless. I don't know. Who's your favorite superhero? If you're like even if you're like compartmentalizing your politics and blah, blah, blah, who's your, I'm still, I'm still Mrs. Spider-Man. I'm big on Spider-Man as well. I enjoy Batman in some of the movies. Okay. I mean, I have two superhero movie tattoos. One of them is from Batman Returns and one of them is a Spider-Verse movie. So I'm not like, I like a superhero movie. I've always been like a big action movie head. I don't have the same affinity for the MCU as many people do. But I've seen almost all of them. I see most of them in theaters with a few exceptions for boycott reasons that I'll go into later. But, Yeah, I have engaged lightly with the MCU. But when this movie came out, I was just like, Captain America Who? Pass.

So I didn't see it until, I don't know, maybe four or five years later. Because by then there were other, like the MCU was starting to really be built out. So I was like, okay, I guess if I want to remain culturally relevant, I have to see these movies. So I started to like go back and watch the ones I hadn't seen before. But anyway, that was the only other time I had seen this. I had seen this movie. So it's been about a decade or more since I've watched it. I forgot most things about it.

Okay. And there was a lot that I didn't realize would be present that we would have to discuss on this episode. Yeah. It is a pretty intense. one. And I guess for listeners that are expecting a complete full deep dive on Captain America, we're doing this episode on a fairly quick turnaround due to the poll of it all. So we won't get to everything. But I think that for listeners of the show, that sort of want to take on how this presents America and American propaganda, we hope you will leave satisfied. Yeah. I feel like you could

write a whole thesis on. I mean, there's so many books about Captain America. I think a lot of, like, if I thought he were more interesting might be interesting to me. But I mean, I am very interested in, you know, whatever, like American symbolism and selling, you know, how basically the, how colonial products are sold back to people. And Captain America is a part of that. I just, it's not one that was ever designed to work for me.

Right. But let's get into it. Let's get into it. because this movie was, well, not as financially successful as I would have expected for something that became so big. Definitely has a massive cultural impact, specifically this version of the character, because there are many versions of the character, some of which have more complexity than others. This one, you know, they have the cooperation of the Pentagon. So, you know, don't, well, I mean, we've talked about that many times, but very relevant to today. So let's get into it.

Yes, let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come back for the recap. Listen, and you're there for heart-wrenching knockouts. The world's biggest stage. And breathtaking triumph. In 2026 FIFA World Cup, the knockout stage. Every match, every moment. Listen on TSN Radio. Join the globe.

On the road to the July 19th final. I know. 2026 FIFA World Cup. Stream it all live on TSN Radio. Available on IHeard Radio. Joy is essential and it's also elusive. But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence.

Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, How to Kot Me. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on air, chats. Listen to Joy 101 on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby is presented by CVS. My husband is currently on a vacation with his mistress and I'm confronting them. Tell me, Sophia, how did she even catch them? One Amazon shopping receipt. He accidentally sent her a photo of the kids' Christmas gifts with a delivery to another woman at the

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and listen to the stuff you should know doing science playlist on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. Okay, here is the story of Captain America, the first Avenger. We open on... present day somewhere in the Arctic question mark. Sure. A strange ship or something has been discovered. It's lodged in the ice. And inside some guys discover Captain America's famous shield.

Then we smash cut to Norway, 1942. We meet Johann Schmidt, played by Hugo Weaving. he is an SS officer and head of Hydra the rogue science division of the Nazi party and he bust into some kind of fortress and steals the Tesseract which becomes very relevant in other MCU movies I can't even with the Tesseract I honestly like the second he opened a box like because at first it's kind of engaging it's kind of fine And for me, the second the box is open and it's a glowy blue thing, you're like, and this is where the movie will leave me and never get me back. Because I just hate it.

Oh, my God. I mix up the Tesseract, which I'm vaguely aware of. Because doesn't that remain like a thing the whole time? Pretty much. They keep like losing it and needing to go back and find it or something. I think it. I remember that it's like relevant. at least in other ones that I've seen or it's reference.

I'm pretty sure it's in Captain Marvel maybe. Anyways. I don't know. Anyways, I always confuse it with the avatar version of it, which is an Obtainium. Oh, sure. Their secret goo. Anytime there's like a secret goo, I'm just like, oh, yeah, yeah. You are reminded that ultimately, and this isn't even necessarily like a fault of the storytelling,

but it's like ultimately these stories are written for children. And that's why there's all sorts of mysterious goos. And I just cannot be convinced to take them seriously. Look, I don't mind a secret goo. In fact, I might even go so far as to say, I like a secret goo. I'm more of an ooze girl. I'm personally, no, this is, yeah, the plot goo, I just, I just, I can't do it. But that's okay.

That's okay. Yeah. So Johann Schmidt comes in and steals the Tesseract. we cut to the U.S. it's still 1942 where the rest of the movie will take place we meet Steve Rogers played by Chris Evans

Sort of played by Chris Evans head and Leander Deanie's body I will not I promise I will stop harping on this but I gasped I gasped it was so

2011 I was trying to like piece together I didn't look up any behind the scenes footage because I kind of like my version better. Here's how I picture they shot it. I picture first they shoot the whole scene with Chris Evans balancing his head on a pile of tennis balls. And then they shoot the whole scene again with Leander Deanie wearing like kind of a gimp mask that is like covered in chroma key. And then they're like, yeah, we'll figure it out.

I like it. That's how they shoot it all twice and then it still looks horrible. I know that that's definitely not how they did it, but it made me laugh so much to think about Sebastian Stan doing the scene horribly twice. Not Sebastian Stan being horrible. I like him, but he's in Iitania for crying out loud. He's literally in Iitania and no one talks about that enough. It's an underrated performance. Yeah. So anyways, Steve Rogers is trying to enlist in the military because he really wants to fight for his country in World War II. but he's scrawny and chronically ill and he can't fight for shit because he gets in a fist fight

with a guy in an alley and gets absolutely pummeled. He gets in a fight for being a fucking loser at a movie theater. I mean, I guess they're both being losers, but he's just like, wait, man, America's awesome man. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. He should have had his ass kicked. He should have had his ass kicked. I agree.

Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, Steve's best friend, Bucky Barnes, played by Sebastian Stan. comes to his rescue. Now, Bucky has successfully enlisted, and he gets shipped off tomorrow, while Steve Rogers has tried five different times to enlist, but keeps failing the medical, physical exam. Stephen Bucky then go to like a World's Fair Science Expo kind of thing hosted by... More propaganda stuff.

And also very funny, bad CGI.I. They look like they like visit a screensaver. Yeah. It looks really phony. Yeah. But this event is hosted by Stark Industries. We meet Howard Stark, aka Tony Stark's father. Who I was genuinely shocked.

That's not Rami Malick. You're telling me that's not, right? You don't recognize him as Dominic Cooper of Mamma Mia fame? I had to be reminded. And I was like, okay, I actually, I do remember him as Dominic Cooper of Mamma Mia fame now. I guess I don't really associate Mama Mia. mea with men who aren't Stelan Scars Cart. Well,

Pierce Brosnan and Colin Firth Erasure. Yeah, I guess if I'm ranking my, my, my Papa Pia's, I'm going, Stellan, Pierce,

Colin, I think. But I forgot Dominic Cooper's in it. But yeah, he looks, I think it's also like the way his, I just, he looks so much like Rami Malik

to me in this movie. But there's a resemblance. Yeah. It is not him. Yeah. Anyway, he's there doing shit. The whole thing with,

Howard Stark is that he's this brilliant mechanical engineer. But Steve isn't paying attention to any of that. He's so distracted because he wants to fight for his country so bad. It's consuming his every thought. And then Stanley Tucci enters the movie. And overhears Steve telling Bucky about how much he wants to fight for his country. And then Stanley Tucci approaches him. His character's name is Dr. Erskine.

and he works for a special science division of the U.S. military. And he wants to shoot Steve full of plot goo. Different plot goo, not Tesseract. Well, because the Tesseract is a solid. It's a cube versus. It's a light bulb in a box. Yes, yes, yes. Meanwhile, Dr. Erskine has a serum that is way more, way closer to plot goo, I would say.

He has the go. Okay. He's got the go. And also he, it's Stanley Tucci doing an accent, which I also did not see coming. Every, everything about Stanley Tucci was a surprise to me in this movie. He's doing a German accent, as is Hugo Weaving. Yes. And you love to see it.

I guess. I guess. Shrug. I guess I'm ambivalent towards it. Right. Okay. So Dr. Erskine is so impressed that Steve is. that dedicated to trying to enlist that he approves Steve's enlistment form.

Right. Then we cut to Hydra's secret layer in the mountains. Schmidt and his associate, Dr. Zola, played by Toby Jones, put the Tesseract through some machine and are able to harness an incredible amount of energy from it, which they can use to develop advanced weapons and likely win the war. Did this scene remind you of I Frankenstein? I couldn't stop thinking about I Frankenstein during this scene. Well, I haven't seen it nearly as many times as you.

So I, it's like not in my brain at all. But it did remind me of the Spider-Man 2 scene where Doc Ock is like precious tritium, blah, blah, blah. And then he becomes Doc Ock. That's true. Yeah, I was thinking of the I Frankenstein scene where, where Bill Nihie brings the rat back to life. Yeah.

Sure. Real I Frankenstein has to remember. Yeah. Sorry about it. That's okay. I'm a fake fan. Fake fan. Anyway, okay, so cut to Steve at basic training or something.

Yeah. The commanding officer is Tommy Lee Jones. I'm sure his character has a name, but I don't care about that. Yeah. He says that at the end of the week, they're going to choose one man to turn into a super soldier. And we're like, huh? Right, right. Right.

Also, Agent Peggy Carter, played by Haley Atwell, is also there. Yes. She supervises all of the operations for this science division. What that means exactly? We don't know. It's so vague. Yes. And again, for comic book heads, we are just covering the version of Peggy that appears in this film.

I know that she had like her own television show. But we're just going to talk about Peggy in like her comic conception versus this movie. Yes. Then we get a montage of Steve and the others training. And Steve is not good at all of the physical things like running and pushups. Yeah, he's getting bullied, even though the reason that he says he wants to serve in the American military is that he hates bullies. And you're just like, aye, aye, aye, y, maybe you are a good candidate. Grow up. Right.

So, yeah, he is not good at all of the, like, physical strength and endurance tests, but what he lacks in brute strength he makes up for in smarts and courage. So he is the one who is selected to become the aforementioned super soldier via this serum, aka a plot goo, that Dr. Erskine had developed. The doctor also mentions that Schmidt, the Hydra guy, had also taken the serum in the past, but it was before the serum had been perfected. And also Schmidt is evil and deranged. So there were some side effects when he took the serum. And we'll put a pin in that.

We'll put a pin in that. I will say I was like the visual representation of this sequence. I was like, huh, that's like more visually interesting than 90% of Marvel movies. It's like this weird montage. Oh, okay. Yeah. Of Hugo weaving like, you know, getting, getting gooey. Yeah, I thought that was hideous to look at.

I mean, I don't think it was beautiful. beautiful to look at, but it wasn't like a blobby screen saver, which is how I think of Marvel movies aesthetically. It's just like a random void where someone's screaming, my father. That's most of that. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So then Agent Carter and Steve head to a facility for him to have the super soldier serum injected into him. And maybe the two of these characters are flirting a little bit along the way. Wow. Yeah. And then when the procedure is over, Steve is a foot taller. He's jacked. His cells are really good now. I wish that in a cooler world, in a more Cronenbergy world, he should have come out like covered in, now I'm being pro goo. He should have come out covered in some sort of

birth goo. He's too smooth when he comes out. Yeah, and he's also wearing a shirt that fits him perfectly. In spite of going in with Jeremy Strong's body. Like, it's just interesting. Like, it's, yeah, I mean, I get it's, it's just a movie moment, but I was like, man, he's too smooth. Give me something to, give me something to consider. Yeah, you want him to be covered in placenta or something? Yeah, I want to be reminded that this was an extremely painful thing, which is sort of reference, but also I thought that was very funny,

where he's screaming in pain and he says, no. No. It's okay. I can do it. It okay. And they're like, okay, cool. Keep going. Yeah. Well, anyway, he emerges and he is sexy as hell.

And Agent Carter is like, hubba, hubba. Yeah. But there are spies in their midst, clearly Hydra minions, who Schmidt had sent to steal the serum and murder Dr. Erskine. But it's important to remember that at this point, point in history, at this consequential point in history, the minions were in the cave in the North Pole. The minions, a lot of people say, why aren't the minions in this movie? People keep asking that. And it's because, canonically, they were in the cave. So they were not

involved in either World War that we know of. I wonder if that, because they're in like, either an Arctic or Antarctic cave. I wonder if it's near wherever. Steve Rogers ends up. Oh, I, I do, you know, I really hope for the minions that they, that they do not. I mean, they wouldn't fuck with Captain America. He's so boring. And he's too good. The minions only serve evil masters.

I mean, he's not even, I don't know, Captain America isn't even good, but he's definitely not like, minion grade. Because the minions, they choose evil rulers, but they also choose guys with, like, charisma. and also just people with charisma let's not forget scarlet overcoat sure anyway do you you don't you don't think that chris evans has riz as captain america in this movie i think chris evans has riz as a person i don't think he has riz as captain america i find captain america like unfixably boring okay so where we differ there i guess is that i find again i find captain america as a concept really fucking boring, but I will say I generally enjoy him in the movies that he's in, which is so many of them.

Interesting. Not as much as I enjoy other characters. Sure. And I do not enjoy these movies from a Bechtelcast point of view. But if I'm just watching them for entertainment value, I'm not having a bad time. I think if I'm choosing, I mean, I think it's hard to outdo Robert Downey Jr. in charisma. And I definitely enjoy. I enjoy Tom Holland Spider-Man.

I've never seen Tom Holland Spider-Man. They're quite good. I'm sure he's good. I'm sure he's good. I just haven't seen him. Anyway, there are spies. There are Hydra spies. So Steve goes after them.

And because he's so strong and fast now, he's able to defeat them. And now this science division of the U.S. military knows that Hydra is a big, threat to them. So they make plans to go after Hydra. And Steve wants to go with them, but they're like, no, you can't because of reasons. Right. So instead, they have Steve become Captain America, which is an Uncle Sam type military recruitment figure doing propaganda films and live shows all over the US to sell war bonds. Which I could like this is the point where I'm like, okay, I know ultimately just because of what this franchise becomes that this movie isn't going to comment on that. But it feels like, you know, in a movie that is, you know, only made possible because of the

American military. So therefore it cannot meaningfully critique the American military. This was such an interesting opportunity to comment on American propaganda. Totally. And does seem to want you to think that like it's sort of goofy what's happening, even though twist what you're watching is basically just the contemporary version of that. But I was like, oh, man, like if this movie was allowed to be interesting, which it just like isn't from moment one because of who's bankrolling it. What a missed opportunity. Totally. especially because the imagery that's presented during the sequence is so heightened and cartoonish

that it almost seems like it would be in a political satire film. I'm so curious on like, I don't know anything about Joe Johnston that we haven't just covered vaguely in the other Joe Johnston movie we've covered or the other two Joe Johnston movies we've covered. He started with Honey I Shrunk the Kids, let's not forget. What? Oh my gosh. I forgot.

Yeah. And we've also covered Jumanji. Those are his other two really big movies. He also directed The Pagemaster, which I loved as a kid. And I don't remember. I think people think it's bad, but I was, as a child, was like, that was my McCauley-Colkin movie. Anyways. Sure.

Yeah. I don't really know what Joe Johnston's politics are or if he's trying to sneak something in there or not. But, yeah. it feels very intentional the way that that's filmed and then it proceeds to not comment on it at all. Whatsoever. Except to say, I mean, again, it's like the fact that Captain America did that is presented as kind of an embarrassment to him, but not because of what he's saying or promoting just because he'd rather be actually fighting. Yeah, because he's like not living up to his potential as a super soldier. Right.

There's never a critique of like, you know, it only looks silly because it's like you're saying like, it is him squandering his potential, not because what they're saying and the way they're saying it is like pernicious. And yeah. Exactly. Yes. So to that point, Steve is like, oh, this isn't satisfying work. I want to fight.

And then he learns that his best friend, Bucky, was among a group of soldiers who were either captured or killed. So Agent Carter and Howard Stark fly Steve to, I think, Austria so that he can try to rescue Bucky if he's alive. Yeah. So Steve, aka Captain America, because he's now also becoming Captain America, the superhero, he parachutes out of the plane and sneaks into some facility where he finds Bucky and a bunch of other American soldiers.

Schmidt blows up this facility for, again, reasons that I definitely. understood. Yes. And then he and Captain America have a face off literally because Schmidt pulls his face off to reveal that he is red skull. Okay. I'm a cynic and that moment is awesome. No, it's great.

I loved it. We love to see it. And it's like, you know, this movie is flawed in so many ways. But yeah, it's never, I'm never unhappy to see a Nazi get his ass beat. And that way, you know, it is, it is very effective. I don't know if you planned to get into this. I didn't get too deep into it, but I did feel the need to just sidebar really quickly to say Steve, Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes, I think, like, even not as a fan of these movies, I am well

aware of the overwhelming shipping fan fiction culture there is around these characters. It's called Stucky. Duh. Okay, I'm not super aware of this specific pair being shipped. Oh, it's listeners correct. me if I'm wrong, but I did a little bit of scanning in archive of our own and other fan fiction sites. And Stucky is a thing. Stucky is definitely a thing. And I think that this movie does kind of, and I don't mean this in a negative way, I think that this movie really opens the door for that

because I find the relationship, you know, if I'm just like watching this like movie brain, I'm watching Steve and Bucky and I'm like, they have such a loving friendship. And I think as with a lot of these shipping pairs, even if they're not canonically queer characters, it's, it's like it's so rare to see men have an affectionate friendship, which these two do. This is true. Yeah. So, just

shouting out that existence, because you know, any, any queer representation in this movie, you will need to, you know, make up. Do some work to get there. But the Stucky community was holding it down in the 2010s and possibly still today. I don't know what they're up to.

Sure. Yeah. One of, One of them is dead. What? Spoilerly. Well, Captain America, or he either dies or he goes back in time or something. Oh, the character. Oh, my God.

I was like, no, they're not. The actors are still both alive. I was like, unless this happened today. No, I had to check with Grant because no matter how wonderful a man is, they always do want to remind you what happened in Marvel movies. And he told me, And I vaguely remember this because I did see the last Avengers movie. Yeah, he like travels back in time to be with Peggy at the end.

And then he, and then Anthony Mackey gets promoted to Captain America. Right. And that's a whole other conversation. Yes, indeed. Yeah. Anyway. So. Hey, yeah, yeah.

Red skull has revealed himself. His red skull. Yeah. Because I guess the side effects of the early version of. the early version of Dr. Erskine's serum made his face look like a skull that's red. Okay. Hence red skull. And then he makes a little speech about something.

I don't know. I was also having a hard time paying attention in that moment. And then he pieces out back to the Hydra Secret layer. Okay. So then Captain America and Bucky escape and then triumphantly return to the U.S. military base. with all of the captured American soldiers. It's like 400 of them. And then there's also one French guy and one British guy there.

Sure. Sure. And Tommy Lee Jones is like, what? I thought you were killed in action, Captain America. I guess you really are a super soldier. And Peggy is like, hey, sexy boy. I'm so glad you're back. Yeah.

And then they basically promote him to like God. Truly. Like they just give him cart blanche on the entire military. Yeah, he's a national hero and he is like given like general patent levels of military power. Yeah. And so he and his military buddies make a plan to go back in and destroy hydro weapons factories and shit like that. And then they also still need to find Schmidt slash Red Skull and his secret base and kill him. Before they leave, Captain America gets his famous shield. And he also manages to piss off

Agent Peggy Carter when she sees him kissing another woman. Which is an interesting sequence. Yeah, we'll talk about it. Yeah. But anyway, we get a montage of Captain America and friends blowing up a bunch of Hydra shit. Red Skull is pissed. And then Captain America and his friends jump onto a moving train to capture Dr. Zola, the Toby Jones scientist. They're fighting some bad guys along the way. And then, oh no, Bucky falls off the train into a ravine and probably dies or maybe he becomes the winter soldier in the next movie. Who Can Say? Yeah. I mean, it's part of why watching this movie in the modern day gives really diminishing returns because living in the future, you know that, like, this franchise refuses to kill anybody.

So it's like, I don't know, maybe I did get emotional in the cinema when you're like, oh, no, Steve and Peggy, when are they going to see each other? But you're just like, they're never going to let these motherfuckers die. As long as there is a dollar in the world, these characters will live. It's true. Yeah. It's true. Yeah, there was a whole movie about how half of the characters, quote, unquote, die.

and then the next movie is about how they do all this shit to go back in time and reverse the timeline so that they all live. Again, I don't remember a lot of what happens. I remember people being like the snap. The snap changes everything. And then the next movie came out and they're like, never mind. Just kidding. The snap did not really change anything. We undid the snap.

Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, Captain America doesn't know that his best friend survived and would go on. want to be in a bunch of other MCU movies. So he's really, really sad. But they were able to capture Dr. Zola on this mission. And Tommy Lee Jones interrogates him and finds out that Red Skull plans to blow up all of the United States.

So the stakes are high and they really got to stop this guy. So then Captain America and company head to the secret Hydra Base because Toby Jones told them where it is. and Captain America is captured and brought to Red Skull, except that maybe that was part of the plan because his buddies come in and save him, I don't know, but there's like a big third act fight. Agent Carter is there.

She's not mad at Captain America anymore. So she gives him a big smooch and says, go get him. Which if that doesn't encapsulate an allegedly feminist character from 2011, show me what does. Exactly. And then he jumps on a plane that's taking off, which is full of bombs that Red Skull plans to drop on different major cities in the U.S. Sure. Captain America and Red Skull fight.

At some point, the Tesseract gets dislodged and Red Skull picks it up and disappears. And not that we know this from this movie, but it creates a wormhole and he's sent to some faraway planet because this character shows up again. in Avengers, Infinity War, and Endgame, I think. I believe you. Thank you so much. Anyway, Captain America is still in the plane and he gets in the pilot seat, but in order to save New York where this plane is headed, he has to sacrifice himself and crash the ship into the ice somewhere.

Wait a minute. Was that what the opening of the movie was all about? Yes. We're not sure, but we're not sure how he gets from being almost to New York City to somewhere in the Arctic tundra within a few seconds. But I guess we're not supposed to think about that. Cut to Steve waking up in a hospital room. It seems like it's still the 1940s and there's a Brooklyn Dodgers game playing on the radio. But wait, something isn't right.

This game already happened. So he's like, where the hell am I? What's going on? He runs out and into Times Square. And surprise, it's 2011. And Nick Fury, played by Samuel L. Jackson famously, shows up to inform him that he has been asleep for almost 70 years. I guess he was like frozen in the ice.

And that preserved him. And he's like, oh, shucks, I had a date with Peggy. I was so close to losing my virginity. the end and does he ever lose his virginity i don't remember i don't remember maybe who knows maybe none of my business maybe and then there's a post credit sequence where steve is hitting a punching bag and absolutely nothing happens the end they hadn't quite they hadn't quite cracked it no all right let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back And gold tickets to Ilsoniq.

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House community has made a huge impact online and in her community. Listen to Weevian House on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And we're back. A few things stick out to me with, and again, I am not any manner of authority on history surrounding World War II. Nor are I. But I did a little bit of research just to sort of flesh out the way that this period is

represented versus what they're actually what actually was going on. So just roughly, what we see in this movie, Caitlin, please correct me in because I was half asleep and missed this. So we meet Steve Rogers who, you know, is a character who was invented by Jack Kirby and Joe Simon, explicitly to be the antithesis to Hitler. The first image of him, he is punching Hitler in the face, which is something that is replicated in the movie. But we meet him as a character who really wants to enlist in the military.

Did this happen in World War II? Yes. However, two-thirds of the, and I'm pulling this from the National World War II Museum, two-thirds of Americans who served in the military during World War II, 16 million people, two-thirds of those people were drafted. So only about one in three were volunteers. There also was a far more diverse coalition of soldiers than we see. It was a majority white coalition, but there were over one million black soldiers,

which I don't think we see represented proportionally, as well as hundreds of thousands of Hispanic Americans, as well as Native Asian and Filipino Americans. We see very little diversity in this. But I think that the point that is really aggressively hit on in this movie is that Steve Rogers wants nothing more than to fight for his country. And we don't really see another point of view represented, even though those other two and three, you would imagine, may have more complicated feelings toward the draft. This is something that I'm sure is handily addressed. There is nothing, if not a trillion movies about World War II.

but in a product this big, and I think especially because this is a movie that is marketed at kids, this is a very particular, I think, very nationalistic way to portray this period in time that I think, I mean, I had to double check these numbers to be like, I know that, you know, unlike other wars that the U.S. was an aggressor in, had a far lower level of volunteer than World War II. Vietnam is the example that comes directly to mind. But the fact that, you know, two and three people were drafted versus the only perspective we see presented here feels very playing into the idea of the quote-unquote great American hero where we're given kind of a very vague backstory. And it's just inherently American. And this is this is not an ideology that's

exclusive to America. It's any nationalistic structure. There's many, many countries that do this. But this is the American one. So I just thought that that was worth pointing out that it is, you know, the perspectives we see are very skewed in favor of the join the draft, which is literally what Captain America represents explicitly at one point in the movie. And I have some of this for later on, but there are a few quotes given by Chris Evans, and I'm like, he was so young. And then I look at it and I'm like, he was 29. He could read. But there are this repeated pattern, I think, that is reflective of how America is perceived by itself and by and globally that you can find in the press tours for Captain America products that try to distance themselves from what is very

explicitly being put on screen to be like, oh, he doesn't really stand for America. He stands for goodness, which is not, we'll get into that more. But I mean, I think that part of the reason that this is an effective piece of propaganda is it's attempting to directly correlate being American with being good. For sure. So anyways, yeah, a historical how they present the draft. Anyways, definitely. Yeah, as we were talking about a little bit earlier, because it had been so long since I've seen this movie, I completely forgot how much pro-US military propaganda is present and presented completely earnestly without any sort of commentary or satire or anything like that. Oh, yeah. Again, not that a huge studio superhero movie that was made in cooperation with the U.S. government would do anything like that, of course. But I was still kind of shocked by how, like,

in your face this movie is as far as it's like hyper pro-military industrial complex rhetoric. And it got me wondering about World War II propaganda that was circulated around the U.S. Since that's what we see Captain America doing as his first job. So I did a little research. I'm not an expert on this topic, so I might be oversimplifying things. But basically, There was a ton of propaganda going around the U.S. during World War II. This happened in World War I as well. But it was things like films, radio broadcasts, posters, advertisements, magazines, leaflets, cartoons, comic books, live shows.

Basically any type of media that was available at the time was used to distribute propaganda by the U.S. government to promote pretty extreme American patriotism in order to get Americans to support the war effort. So the idea was to persuade people to be more blindly patriotic because that makes people easier to control and exploit. So propaganda was used not only to kind of broadly encourage intense American patriotism, but also more specifically to get people to enlist in the military, to offer their labor in factories,

and victory gardens and gathering scrap metal and things like that. People were propagandized to be frugal with their use of different materials so that those materials could be used for the war. People were propagandized into buying war bonds, which is what we see Captain America selling in the movie when he's turned into this like Uncle Sam type figure. Right. So yeah, I was just curious about that.

And I'm also interested to learn more about how the pro-patriotism slash arguably pro-American nationalism propaganda from that era, like how it influences modern-day patriotism and nationalism in the U.S., because I have a feeling that they're connected. And it's also maybe partly why this very pro-America, pro-military movie from relatively recent years is set. during this era of World War II. Right.

That's really interesting. I did not go down that line of study, but yeah, I mean, that that totally scans. I hope that I'm like afraid that the history has to be like, well, actually, I'm like, I know. And we know, we know, we know, we know. But this is a movie podcast, not a history podcast. Yes. There are other sources for this. But we're trying to just contextualize the version of history that this movie is presenting,

which is very in line with what we learn in American public schools, or at least what we learned in American public schools at the time. That is also a very moving target. But it's interesting how much American propaganda is referenced inside of the movie and then how much is going on within the production, right? Because I'll go back to that Chris Evans quote. And this was something that came back up last year when the Anthony Mackey, Captain American movie,

came out, which we can talk about because there was a boycott on that movie, Captain America Brave New World that we should talk about the context of. But there was a quote from Anthony Mackey that is similar to a Chris Evans one. But I think because Anthony Mackey is a black actor, it was taken out of context and treated quite differently. But I'll just share getting to that like Captain America being an overt representation of American propaganda, and that existing during times where America is not very popular and how it's presented. So Anthony Mackey says last year, January 2025,

for me, Captain America represents a lot of different things, and I don't think the term America should be one of those representations. It's about a man who keeps his word who has honor, dignity, and integrity, someone who is trustworthy and dependable. And again, I very much disagree with this representation. but of course you know this was taken up by the right wing as like Anthony Mackey hates America blah blah blah blah and then he to me hilariously was clearly forced to apologize for this in an Instagram story using comic sands and he's like let me be clear I'm a proud American and taking on the shield blah blah blah

so he was forced to apologize it is very similar though to something that Chris Evans says way back in 2011 that I also disagree with but I think it's interesting that this is a through line in the 21st century. He said, I'm not trying to get too lost in the American side of it. This isn't a flag-waving movie. It is red, white, and blue. But it just so happens that the character was created in America during wartime when there was a common enemy, even though it is Captain America.

I've said it before in interviews. I feel like he should just be called Captain Good. You know, he... Actors should not be allowed to speak. You know, he was created. at a time where there was this undeniable evil and this guy was kind of created to fight that evil. I think that everyone could agree that Nazis were bad and he, cap, just so happens to wear the red, white and blue.

Now, the backbends, this poor man is doing to do this is just like never listen. Whatever. Actors are wonderful, but should they be speaking? I don't know. Sometimes no. But it's interesting that both of them are sort of trying to do this gymnastics routine. against acknowledging what is very clear about this character. And in doing so, sort of like hitting the nail on the head of what we're supposed to take away from

Captain America. America is good. And in the case of that, Chris Evans quote, you know, presenting probably the version of history that he learned in American schools that you just, that you just talked about, Caitlin, is like, well, we can all agree that Hitler was bad. Absolutely true. Of course. Of course, Hitler is famously history's greatest monster.

And that does not mean that America being opposed to Hitler means that America is, you know, uncomplicatedly good. We understand this, but it's just like, it's so funny to me that he said this isn't a flag waving movie when literally the first end credit tile is Uncle Sam. You're like, bro, this is like one of the most flag waving. vaguest movies that we have. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think we're like just sort of pointing out the obvious in all these different ways. But like it is the framing of it is so interesting because it's like you're also sort of

being gaslit by the cast across decades. Right. Being like, well, this isn't an American movie. Meanwhile, he's wearing a red, white, blue shield. The movie is sponsored by the military. And he's, it's actually, this is just a movie about being a good awesome guy. You're like, right, right, right. I mean, it's not unlike the propaganda that Americans were force-fed.

It's the same. At the time in World War II. Yeah. It's the same shit. And it's like this, it's also the same character. So it's just like silly that. And I think that, you know, audiences today are kind of wiser to it in general. Well, I was thinking about this, the subsequent Captain America movies.

Which, tell me more because I kind of didn't want to learn. Well, I can't tell you a lot because I did not have time to rewatch them. That's okay. But I do think, thank you so much, but I do think that they get less and less pro-American military propaganda as they go. I have a pretty decent handle on Captain America Civil War because I have watched that one multiple times. But I don't really remember Winter Soldier at all. that's the second one. And that's Bucky Barnes, right?

Yeah. So he survives falling into the ravine. He gets captured and he's given maybe like different plot goo or something to turn him into the winter soldier, which is he becomes a bad guy. But then he becomes a good guy again eventually, blah, blah, blah. Again, I don't remember the specifics. So MCU heads don't come for me. also there is just for what it's worth there is like a disagreement on whether just going back to like the enlistment versus draft there is a disagreement on whether bucky volunteered or drafted it's interestingly and maybe this is actually relevant to what we're talking about i think that the that we're first told he was drafted and later that's revised to he enlisted which feels intentional but there's two versions of the story the original one was that he was drafted which shockingly actually actually

there was more nuance when this character was creative maybe than there is. Now, there you go. All this to say, the sequels are a bit foggy in my brain, but I feel like once we start getting the movies where Captain America is in modern times, there's less of an overt pro-American military sentiment in those movies. But the main thing I wanted to talk about regarding the sequels, which is something we've already alluded to is the fourth movie that came out last year, the Anthony Mackey one called Brave New World. However, I did not see that movie because there was a call for a boycott

because it features a character named Sabra, who is in the comics as a Mossad agent who is framed as a superhero. So not a villain. Ah. Yeah. So when it was announced that this character would be included in Captain America, Brave New World. I think that announcement was made in 2022. People protested. And Marvel responded by being like, no, don't worry. We're taking a new approach to that character.

Sabra is not Massad anymore. In the movie, she works for the U.S. government. But that was not good enough because simply the inclusion of this character at all, considering the history and the context of this character, and the fact that she was played by an Israeli actor in the movie tells you what you need to know about Marvel Studios stance on... And again, it's like when you consider the fact that they work so closely,

not only with Disney, but with, I mean, they're owned by Disney, and they literally work with the American military. Of course they're not going to take any, you know, meaningful critique seriously. And there's more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So Marvel Studios has broader ties to Israel because it was founded by a guy named Avi Arad, who was also the former chairman and former CEO of Marvel Studios. Before that, he was the chief creative officer of Marvel Entertainment, which was the predecessor to Marvel Studios. And he is Israeli. He was born in Israel in 1948, which is the same year as the Nakbah. He is a former member of the IDF,

and he remains deeply, deeply pro-Israel. So the founder of Marvel Studios is a raging Zionist. Well, and something I did not know until quite recently. I just learned it. Well, Jesus fucking Christ, there you go. There you go. Yeah, also worth mentioning, because we're talking about American propaganda,

that, you know, if you haven't seen the most recent UN report on Gaza, that it is confirmed not that the U.S. is going to meaningfully recognize this at the highest level, but that there have been over 70,000 people killed by Israel in Gaza, of course assisted by the U.S. and 20,000 children. So, I mean, protesting a Captain American movie is, it's a small thing, but it is, it is meaningful because it's like you are protesting propaganda. Yes. That I didn't realize how to its core that propaganda is, but thank you for that very

frustrating fact. Yeah. Yeah, I think that on that note, it's worth acknowledging, which we've talked. talked about in a number of episodes, the Marvel military industrial complex, which is not limited to Marvel movies, but they are. They certainly do stand out. And something that we have talked about the development of the military's involvement in Hollywood sort of started with their recognizing the success of Top Gun and forming this industry around Top Gun. So we talk about that in our Top Gun episode. But by the time that this movie comes out, there was already precedent

for this because the American military had been involved in Ironman in 2008. So from the very beginning of the MCU, the military was present. I'm pulling here from a piece in inkstick media from last year by Ashley Gate. Just a little bit of reference to the movies that they single out as being made with not just the endorsement of, but financial support from the U.S. military are as follows this movie, Captain America, and its sequel, I believe the first one, Captain Marvel, which I don't think we talked about on our Captain Marvel episode, and that is one that I would like to redo at some point. And Iron Man 1 and 2. So that only seems like five. Maybe they meant both Captain America sequels. I'm not totally sure. In any case, those are the Marvel

movies that were made, not just with the approval, but the financial support. What does that mean? We will remind you, and I'm quoting from the piece here, by subsidizing military hardware, allowing media conglomerates to film on military bases and facilitating the recruitment of off-duty soldiers as extras, the Pentagon validates the movie script and weighs in to approve the final film with advanced viewings. So we will probably never know. But if there was ever a version of this script or a version of the conception of this movie that involved a critique of American propaganda, it was long, long, long gone before it reaches people because the Pentagon gets to sign off on this, which means that we're seeing something that is explicitly shaped

by the state. And that is propaganda. It's a really interesting piece. And we can also, hold on I'll just send the link. You know, it goes very deep. I know we've talked about it in the, I think we've talked about it with Transformers movies, with Top Gun, with Marvel. Maybe Independence Day question mark. Possibly.

That sounds familiar. Yeah. I think so, yeah, because Lindsay was on for that episode. Yeah, there's a lot of history with, and that's also, I think it's important to mention a fairly recent development. Top Gun came out in the 80s. So even though, you know, this movie's poking a little bit of fun at the, you know, very

prodigious and effective propaganda machine in the U.S. of the 1940s, it's only become more entrenched in Hollywood since then. And if we're like taking an even further step back to Disney bought Marvel, you know, like in the early Bob Iger era, so whatever, the 2000s, but during the 40s during this time that this movie is taking place in both Disney and Marvel as separate entities were creating U.S. propaganda one I mean Captain America debuts in 1940 shortly before the U.S. enters the war so almost as a like the movie is referencing an uncle Sam like promotional tool to encourage enlistment and Disney basically put all of their production on hold to make propaganda you know short propaganda films, which is I think some of the only like frequently discussed World War II

propaganda, or at least that I've learned about, is like Donald Duck fighting Hitler and all that stuff. All right. So both of these entities, even before they were like merged to create this very boring influential movie with the U.S. military, were doing work for the U.S. military that just presents the narrative that serves the American military machine. And I'll say again, all of this is true. And it's great to see someone punch Hitler in the face night after night.

But we have to be able to contain multitudes here. Yes. Well, and this propaganda extends to certain plot points or characters in the movie. And I'm sure there are ones that I, am forgetting or maybe even missed, but two big ones that I clocked are basically the movie presenting the idea of technologically advanced bombs that you drop on an entire city that can kill hundreds of thousands of people at once. The U.S. would never do that. That's something that the Nazis would do. That's hydrish it. And not to downplay the abject horror of what Nazis,

did do. But this movie doesn't seem to want to admit that the U.S. would kill civilians. Do something like that and did do something like that, i.e. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. So the movie just like taking atrocities committed by the U.S. and making that something that the enemy would do. And then I also feel like the movie tries to kind of rewrite history with its treatment of the Japanese American character in the movie. The character's name is Jim Marita, played by an actor named Kenneth Choi, where in the movie, he becomes good buddies with Captain America, and he becomes a war hero, omitting the fact that Japanese Americans were put in internment camps during World War II. Yeah, I mean, truly,

locally, portions of Griffith Park in like our own community were used as Japanese internment camps and it is still just wildly underdiscust in the U.S. Yeah, like you're totally right. Like there's all of these things that are presented over half a century later at the time this movie comes out with full knowledge of, you know, the Pentagon is well aware of the atrocities that America has wrought on other nations and its own people. But they gave money to Captain America so that they. could use a fucking military bunker or whatever the hell.

I just, it's miserable. I wanted to touch on just really quickly, and I've done nowhere near a deep dive to this, for comic book fans that it does seem like in the, you know, over 80 years that this character has existed, there have been moments where there's been at least an attempt at introspection on the part of this character. one thing that I found interesting and didn't go very deep into, but there was a series of Captain

American comics in the 70s in which 1970s Captain America is fighting 1950s Captain America. So they're literally at, yeah, like Captain America is at war with himself. I mean, there are- Civil war much. I guess, self-war, like, whatever. I mean, I didn't get too deep into it, but there have been, you know, in the nearly century that this character has existed, writers and people who have tried to sort of reckon with what has this character represented versus what does this character represent now. Because, you know, characters like this and I, like, whatever, read raw dog if you want to know. But like, you know, these symbols of these nationalistic symbols, they do have changing meanings as time goes on. and it's interesting to see that conversation happen. I'll just leave it at that because clearly that is all very absent from this movie. But I will acknowledge that it seems as if in comic book world there have been,

and it seems like this is also true for characters like Batman, like Spider-Man. You know, in a character that's existed for nearly 100 years, there's going to be some change and some conversation. But I think it is very telling that the most cultural, culturally impactful version of this character pretty much just retains the values of the original unquestioningly. Yeah. Shall we talk about Agent Peggy Carter?

Yeah. Sure. Okay, so I more or less just kind of recapped the main beats that she's in. So just to kind of go through those, she's initially introduced at like the basic training camp where she's like I'm the supervisor of the science club or whatever some guy some soldier that is her subordinate immediately undermines her which is perfectly believable given the time and probably still now but yes right and then she responds by punching him to show us the audience that she is a strong independent woman hashtag.

Yeah. So that's our first impression of her. There's a scene in the car a little bit after that where she is taking Steve to the facility to get his super soldier goo injected into him. And he's talking about how because he's so small and skinny, no one respects him or takes him seriously, parentheses, because he doesn't embody traditional ideals of masculinity. Like masculine ideals, yes. Which is also, you know, at least, again, as far as I understand, probably accurate to the time. For sure. Also, you know, it's the, the movie is not interested

in Steve Rogers until he is traditionally big and brawny and embodies the quote unquote all-American ideal. So it's like even though he is presented as, you know, like, lovable and good, inherently good, regardless of what he physically looks like, the version of him we celebrate very squarely matches. We don't celebrate Chris Evans' head on Jeremy Strong's body. And I think that's intentional. For sure. And Peggy Carter isn't romantically interested in him until he looks like that. Because he's a head on a pile of tennis ball. Like the scene, where they're in the car, oh my god, the scene where they're in the car, every angle, Steve Rogers looks like he is a completely different size. I watch that scene. It's the only scene I watched twice.

It was the only scene I found interesting. Every new angle, there's one scene where he looks, he just looks a different dimension and his head changes size from angle to angle. It is so, just really uncanny. And like, it's the polar express in that car. But you're, you're, you're Totally right, though, that anyways. So, so, yeah, he's talking about how he's not respected because of his perceived lack of masculinity. Yes. Agent Carter responds by saying, I know what that's like to have every door shut in your face. Parentheses, no one respects me in this field that I'm in because I'm a woman.

Yeah. And then Steve responds by being like, yeah, I guess I just don't know why you would want to join the army if you're such a beautiful dame or woman or agent you're not a dame and then she's like wow you have you have no idea how to talk to a woman do you and he's like he says well no i i mean it's like i don't know it's like there's with peggy it's like if you're watching with your brain like sort of only softly on i i i you can see you can see the redeeming quality is where, you know, on its face, you know, he is drawn to and, like, also seems to have a good deal of professional respect for Peggy, who is it like hypercompetent at her job, is confident. And, like, you know, I see the argument in any number of early 2010's clickbait that she is an inherently feminist character because she, you know, has a job.

that she is very good at. She is drawn to slash quote unquote rewarded with the romantic lead of the movie without having to compromise her professional position. Sure. Sure. I mean, again, very 2010's ideals. Sure.

I mean, because it's like ultimately this is a degree of feminism that the Pentagon is signed off on. So like, you're like, what does it mean? Right. just a few more examples of this like version of feminism I guess we'll call it. Yeah. This scene in the car ends with

they're kind of flirty because they're talking about like oh finding the right partner to dance with. And the point here is that she is clearly being poised as Captain America's love interest but but he's got to get big first. Yeah yeah exactly.

Following his transformation when he becomes a super soldier there's a chase action sequence where Peggy is shooting some bad guys and she hits some of them. Oh, yeah. She does that classic McSweeney's article thing. She gets to do like one thing. She gets to do one thing.

And it usually is a kind of cool thing. Unfortunately, she then is sort of immediately jettisoned from the scene afterwards, which is, you know, what happens. Because what happens is there's a car driving, like one of the bad guys is driving a car toward her. She's aiming ready to fire. We've already seen her like put a bullet right in a different bad guy's head. So we're pretty confident that she can do it again. However, Steve pushes her out of the way to quote unquote save her from being hit by the car. And she angrily responds, I had him.

Like I could have done it, you know. And he's like, sorry. And then runs off and we follow him. So he basically literally shoves her. Yeah, he shoves her out of the story. But it's feminist because she didn't like it. I don't know. It's like, you know, whatever.

In the warped world that this movie's presented. I mean, like Peggy Carter's shooting Nazis. That's cool. I like that. I like to see that. But it's just, it's so like it is wild how it happens, I think, like three times where she is present at the like very beginning of an action sequence and then is very intentionally removed from said action sequence. We're often cutting back to her in a work capacity, you know, like she is, we're like we cut back to her and she's got like a cork board.

And she's, she's doing cork board tasks. But she doesn't get to participate. Right. In very like, she's on the periphery kind of thing. Yes. Yeah. Totally. Then there's a scene where after we are starting to get the sense that they are starting to

like each other. Captain America gets jealous because he thinks that Peggy and Howard Stark are fricking because he doesn't know what fondue is or something. So he's jealous, but he responds in such a way where he's maybe he just like kind of retreats into himself. He doesn't have an outburst. But when the same thing happens for Peggy, she responds very, irrationally and hysterically because yeah she almost like shoots him yeah because what happens here is that

captain america returns from the rescue mission where he has saved 400 soldiers yeah and this random woman who we don't know throws herself at him because he's a hero and she kisses him which peggy sees Which she said she's doing for all of the women of America because we can't. All the women in America aren't here, though. So I have to sexually assault you on their behalf. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Which obviously is like not how the movie views it, but objectively, that is sort of what is happening.

Anyways, so Peggy sees this. She sees them kissing. And now she's jealous. And we understand why she might be hurt, of course, but she gets so pissed off as if they are already in a monogamous relationship, which they are not. And that, like, he's cheating on her, which he is not, because, again, they're not in a relationship. But she's so mad that she shoots at him.

And sure, he's got the shield that's made of vibranium and she probably knew that she wasn't going to kill him. but like her reaction is so outsized compared to his when basically they think the same thing is going on with one another, that they're like romantically interested in someone other than each other. Yeah. So it feels like the movie is saying, well, she's a woman. So of course she's going to behave hysterically, especially compared to how the man reacts in the same situation. And then what happens right after that scene is Howard Stark.

saying to Steve something like, us men will never understand what's going on in a woman's head. Sure, whatever. Yeah, this is, so as far as Peggy goes, I mean, we're presented with a pretty, like, basic version of this character in this. I did a little bit of reading about who Peggy is in the wider Marvel world. she is not involved from the jump of Captain America. In fact, she has introduced about 25 years after Captain America in the 60s.

She is a member of the French resistance as a teenager prior to meeting Captain America. And then after Captain America's flocks off to the cave or whatever, she works with Howard Stark and has a long history with the shield. organization, which is, of course, the Marvel espionage kind of CIA, Pentagon approved. They're definitely cool. They're not doing anything fucked up. And Nick Fury is there. Right. Nick Fury is cool. So anyways, like she has more of a character, and I know that I'm sure there's a ton of specifics

that I am not aware of. It's also fleshed out, not just in the comic books, but in the TV series Action Carter, Agent Carter, which also stars Haley Atwell and apparently Chad Michael Murray. Oh. Chad Michael Murray is in the MCU. Wow. Did not know that. But she appears all over the MCU and I think she is sort of presented as this, you know,

I think she's presented as a feminist ideal throughout a few different generations. version we get of her here is the 2010's version, which is, you know, and actually Haley Atwell mentions this in her conception of, or her interpretation of the character. I'm pulling this from scholarly journal Wikipedia. I copied and pasted the same quote. The Ginger Rogers quote, you know, that she can do everything in Captain America does, but backwards and in heels. And so that is, you know, I think, again, I don't think that that is an anti-feminist statement. or anything like that. But I do think it is a very particular way of like in some ways. There's an interpretation, I guess, that this is having your cake and eating it too, right? Where you have a character

who's shaped and conceived of as being progressive for women. I'm going to hold off on the word feminist, I guess, progressive. And also still is very much, you know, abiding by the beauty ideals of both that time and our time. And I will say that that is also very true for Captain America. I think there's a lot of aggressive gender conformity in this movie and it is not. I don't even think Peggy Carter is necessarily catching it worse than Captain America. However, Captain America is the one that gets to execute the plot. And Peggy Carter, I think we're told, we're led to believe she is far more involved in the plot of the movie than, you know, screen time wise and action wise. actually is. Yeah, exactly. Like, and this is like, I feel like pretty specific to the early 2010s,

because I think by the time we get to the late 2010s, this has already shifted a little bit, right. But in 2011, we're seeing, we've moved past the idea of a woman in an action movie, simply just being there to be the love interest of a man who gets damseled and has to be saved and otherwise does nothing. For the most part. For the most part, because I mean, we're still,

the early Nolan Batman movies are not too far behind us. True, true, true, true. Yes. So, but we are seeing, we are starting to see a shift. So yeah, maybe we haven't fully moved past it,

but we are starting to see a shift where, oh, we can't just damsel a woman. We have to let her participate in some of the action. We have to let her be smart and sassy, or something like that. We can even give her a gun. We can even let her shoot some people and stuff. But ultimately, we can't let her move the story forward in any meaningful way.

We can't really give her any characterization outside of some very surface level stuff and then also being the love interest of the male hero. We can't give her any interiority or stakes or anything like that. So, yeah, it's it's reflective of an interesting, I guess, time in like representation of women in action movies. It's a very in-betweeny moment. And you're totally right. Like by the end of the decade, the goalpost has shifted. But I mean, yeah, I just really want to. So listeners, we're planning on like before the end of the year sort of doing this series on the main feed where we like revisit a movie that centers on. a character of a marginalized gender from every year of the show as a part of our 10-year celebration. And I'm like very eager as much as I know I'll find them infuriating to go back to Wonder Woman

and Captain Marvel because, I mean, for, and those are very different discussions, but just from the framework of like, what is Pentagon approved feminism and how does that sort of evolve over time? I think it is like very telling. Anyways, yeah, I think that I understand why Peggy was a well-received character at the time, because I think that this type of character was still considered fairly novel, like a woman having any agency in an action movie. Not to say it was unheard of, but it was still, I think, quite rare. Right. So I understand why, look, like, we're, sometimes we cling to things because, yada, yada.

Right. Because there's no alternative, at least in mainstream media. But I think, yeah, with the benefit of time, this is, you know, state-approved feminism. So what is it really? What does it mean? What is she being feminist in service of, et cetera? But, yeah, and again, same with Captain Marvel. you know, this character has been around for 25 years less,

but that's still a really fucking long time. And I'm sure that if you're a big fan of the comics, there are examples that provide pushback or more context that I'm just not aware of. But the Peggy we get here, you know, I appreciate that Haley-Outwell seems to really be doing everything she can with this character, but she's just kind of not given enough. And I don't think that her actions have enough meaningful bearing on the plot

to, you know, consider her, you know, on-pileged. horror with Captain America. And it totally makes sense why people are kind of shipping Bucky and Captain America together more. Their relationship has more stakes and more time to develop. Right. And then by the end of the movie, again, Peggy Carter is, she gets over her being so furious at Steve Rogers that she shoots at him four times because she sees like film footage of Captain America looking at a picture of her in his locket or something. I don't fucking know. I'm like, does Captain America have a locket?

But he's looking at a picture of her. No, no, I wrote, I wrote down his masculine locket. I think it's supposed to be like a compass that's basically a locket. Oh, sure, sure, sure, yes. Boy locket. It's definitely not girly locket that he has. Yes. So she's not mad at him anymore.

She's like, wow, he does love me. And then at the end, she is sort of a part of the big, like, third act battle. More so than other women in Marvel movies, I will say. But, like, you know, again. Definitely ones from around this era. Yeah. Aside from, oh, my God, what the hell is the Scarlet Johansson character's name? I don't know.

Black Widow. Yeah, well, Black Widow, yeah, they acted like Black Widow invented feminism in 2012. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, so Peggy is in the big battle sequence at the end, but I was also kind of confused by that because she's not really a soldier. She's a supervisor. So I don't know why she's in combat, but whatever. It's a movie and I don't understand.

I'm not mad that she's there, but she's shooting her gun. She kills some people. But then gets relegated to like strictly love interest again when she's like, go get him, babe. That was so annoying. And then gives him a big smooch. And then Tommy Lee Jones is like, I'm not going to kiss you. Parentheses, yucky, that would be gay. Yeah, they have to get a no homo moment in because it's 2011.

Uh-huh. And then at the very end, she's on the radio with Steve as he's sacrificing himself and crashing the plane and she's crying and that's all she gets to do with the end. Yeah. It's a weird in-betweeny place to find a woman in this genre because, She's treated like a damsel in distress at more than one point, but I wouldn't categorize her as a damsel in distress. It's like this bizarre gray area that she's experiencing that it's like, I don't know what to make of it. But there it is.

Nonetheless, there it is. I also didn't know that she, like her younger sister and then later niece becomes another Captain America love interest because he's a mortal question mark. There's someone named Sharon Carter. Okay. that's kind of none of my business. I know. I was like, because he's like kind of cryogenically frozen, I guess, when he crash lands in the ice,

but also his cells are improved from the goo. And so I think he's able to like regenerate and heal and live longer, question mark than a regular person. I'm just like there's, we talked about this on another recent episode where I'm like, I reach like critical mass on lore and I'm just like I you know what like I'm just dealing with the text you've put in front of me. I'm not doing homework to watch a movie I don't even like but that's not true actually we did kind of a considerable amount of homework for this movie we don't even like that's our job. What else? What else? What else? I don't really have a ton else. I honestly don't have much else aside from just pointing out that this.

is a very white cast. Yes. And to speaking to your point, when there are non-white characters, it is often to make an a historical point. Right. Yeah. With the Japanese American character, Jim Merida. And then there is a black character who also is a part of Captain America's inner circle

of soldier buddies. We learn a couple things about him, such as he went to Howard University and he knows how to speak German and French. What his name is, I don't know, because if the movie says it, it's not enough times for the audience to remember. And he also is just, again, very much on the periphery. He is a tertiary character, as is Jim Marita, and then we don't know anything else about them. Yay. And every other character is white.

And every other character is white. And it will remain that way in the MCU for some time. time. And also, I mean, this is, we're running out of time and also I'm trying to stay as focused on this single movie as we can because otherwise it becomes an eight-hour saga. But just speaking to like, well, I do think it is generally positive that the diversity of Marvel movies increased as time went on. I think that the reason, at least to be that Black Panther and the Ryan Cougar installments of Marvel are considered. to be kind of, from what I can tell, the meaningful level of inclusion of black actors is because there is representation behind the camera as well, which is why I think a lot of, and this isn't even exclusive to Marvel,

but why a lot of blockbuster representation, I'm also thinking of Star Wars, ends up falling flat or ends up not being meaningful, because there is very little representation behind the camera, which generally leads to people of color in front of the camera, getting a very, very raw deal. Yes. And it does seem like based on what I have done some very light research on sort of what happens with Anthony Mackey throughout.

But again, I know that there's also a TV show that I think attempts to contend with some of the institutional racism in America. I don't know how effectively it does it. I will not be watching the show. Sorry. Is that the one with Red Hawk, Hawkeye? What's his name? No, it's not with Jeremy. I don't think Jeremy Renner's involved. There was a, there was a winter soldier. The winter soldier and whatever. They had their own series on Disney Plus. But unfortunately, I think by the time that even happened, everyone was so sick of superheroes that like by the time they even attempted to say anything, for the most part, most people had checked out because they'd watch 45 boring movies. So anyways

Yeah This is still early in the Marvel MCU It is very white and not really asking Why that is But it's because it's just presenting a false version of history Where everyone was white and volunteered To be a soldier

Yes All right It does not pass the Bechtel task Not even close It just doesn't Peggy Miss Peggy Smurf. She's the only woman in the movie, except for that other woman who sexually assaults

kept in America. Yes. And she does so on behalf of all women, question mark. She, of course, I think she actually does have a name, but it doesn't pass the bacterial test. No. Nipple scale. What do we think? Honestly, I can't think of a reason to give it any more than zero nipples. Yeah. I guess I'll give it. half nipple. I'm going to give it a half nipple because Peggy Carter is not a completely helpless, damseled character, which I think is meaningful enough even for the time this is released into to give that creative decision a nod, even though it ends up playing into a lot of erasure of what could be more active. And it's Pentagon-approved feminism. So what does it mean? But I'll give it a

half for that. I do think that that is at least unusual enough. Fair. I will meet you there. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. Fine. Yes. Amazing. Amazing. So one nipple total for Captain America. I'm not, I don't know. I'm not going to give it to anyone. I'm just going to put it on the floor. I'm going to throw it into the ravine behind Bucky Barnes. Yeah. Great. I love it. Yeah. Well, that's our episode on Captain America, everyone. And you know what? You know what? You sickos on the Matrion, that was an interesting conversation. So thank you. And on that note, if you want to have a say and what you hear on our Matrion and sometimes on our main feed, please head over to our Patreon, aka Matrion.

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Okay, awesome. Bye. Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of IHeart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin Durante.

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