The Bechdel Cast - Carol with Lauren Flans and Nicole Pacent

Episode Date: June 6, 2019

 Caitlin and Jamie meet up with special guests Lauren Flans and Nicole Pacent to return each others' gloves and talk about Carol! (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @LaurenFlans and @NicolePacent of @ComingOutPod - check them out at bit.ly/comingoutpodcast You should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology. Swaps of different meds.

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Hi, I'm Eva Longoria. Hi, I'm Maite Gomez-Rejon. Our podcast, Hungry for History, is back. And this season, we're taking an even bigger bite out of the most delicious food and its history. Seeing that the most popular cocktail is the margarita, followed by the mojito from Cuba, and the piña colada from Puerto Rico.

Listen to Hungry for History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name's Jamie Loftus. And we talk about the representation of women in movies. On our podcast that you're listening to. That's it. This is it. You clicked. You tapped. Here you are. Yep. And here we are. And here we are once again. The Bechdel cast takes a look at how female characters are portrayed in famous movies, and we use the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for that discussion. What on earth is that?

Well, I'll tell you. It's a test invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. It's a media test that requires that two female identifying characters, they have to have names and they have to talk to each other for two lines of dialogue about something that is not a man or related to a man. Wow. Sounds like it should be easy, but a lot of movies. The Lord of the Rings doesn't pass. Not one of the 10 hours of that famous movie franchise. So that's why we're here. Yes. And we did this on the Debs episode as well. But I wanted to dive a little bit deeper into the origins of the Bechdel test than we normally do, because I think it's especially relevant for this movie that we're discussing. So, Jamie, as you said, Alison Bechdel, queer icon, inadvertently created the Bechdel test in her book Dykes to Watch Out For, which was published in 1985. I think some people think that she kind of like deliberately set out to create this test.

It's kind of, yeah. It's more that it was. It's usually presented as like it was invented as like, you know, like an academic paper or something. Right. It was more that it appeared in her book and then was just like later co-opted into the test that we now use today. Yeah. And Alison Bechdel credits the idea to her friend Liz Wallace and to the writings of Virginia Woolf, specifically her essay A Room of One's Own. And then the test is sometimes referred to as the Bechdel-Wallace test, which Alison Bechdel is said to prefer. So that's probably what we should call it also, but we don't.

We simply always forget. It's simply our fault and we fucked up and we're sorry. Yes, we're so sorry. And then in the comic Dykes to Watch Out For, there are two lesbian characters and the context of their conversation is that there is so little queer woman representation in movies that the only way for them to imagine a female character in a movie might be a lesbian is if she is seen erased from the conversation surrounding the Bechdel test, the Bechdel-Wallace test. Yes. Because, especially for our episode today, but also all the time, context like that is so often erased. We've even been guilty of it at times on this show. So it is definitely worth bringing up.

And also just read Alison Bech and bechtel's stuff yes and uh watch it you can watch it on fucking broadway it's so it's and it's also incredible and good so indeed yeah the bechtel wallace test there it is there it is baby hey should we introduce our guests let's do it i'm excited for today me too we have two guests today yes they are the hosts of Coming Out with Lauren and Nicole, a.k.a. Coming Out Pod. It's Lauren Flans and Nicole Paycent. Hi. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having us.

Yeah, welcome. Thanks for your guys. So we are talking about the movie Carol. Carol. 2015. What is each of your relationship with this movie? We should probably start with Lauren because I think her relationship is more intimate and better than mine. Yes.

I saw this movie in theaters shortly after it came out, which is rare for me. I do not see movies that often. But I have a buddy who for years and years now every christmas we movie hop which guys don't do that pay for your movies but one day a year we will like pay for a movie at 10 a.m and then just see like three movies over the course of the day beautiful tradition yeah it is right and also i feel like in certain i guess carol isn't maybe the best example of this but like for like disney for like anything owned by Disney I'm like I will watch this

for free I feel entitled to steal and Carol was the first movie of the day so you paid for that one paid for Carol the following movie I did not pay for it was Daddy's Home and why should no one I don't feel badly about that what even is that oh god

it's actually I really enjoyed it. I'm not going to lie. It was a great follow-up to Carol as like a palate cleanser. Oh, sure. It's Will Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg and a lot of hijinks. Oh, wow. Okay. We'll watch it at some point.

Inevitably, we'll do a back-to-the-cast episode on the Daddy's Home franchise. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It's almost a franchise. One more and I think it counts. I think there's two of them. Yeah, the Daddy's Home franchise. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It's almost a franchise. One more, and I think it counts. I think there's two of them. Yeah, there's two. Yeah.

Well, when Daddy's Home 3 comes out, we'll be sure to do an episode. Everything's going to be put on hold. But I did, yeah, I saw it in theaters on Christmas with my friend who, and I'll just tell this part quickly, but he's a friend I've known since college. I've known him since before I was out.

And we've never had, he's one of those friends, and I don't have a lot of these, but I don't know if, Nicole, if you have any. You probably don't. But I was going to say, he's one of those friends where I'm like, does he know that I'm gay? Because he's not on social media that much. And we've known each other since before then and we've never talked about it so it was a very weird movie to like be sitting next to like yeah my straight guy friend of me like what is he get what is it yeah i know everybody knows i'm queer yeah i was gonna why did i even ask you that it would be they'd have to be under a rock. Nicole, what's your relationship with the movie?

I actually did not see it in theaters. I saw it via a screener afterwards. That's what I've done the past several years where I'm like, why would I pay for this when I'm going to get it in the mail? And so that's what I did. I mean, my first impression of it was just that it was really beautiful. The color palette is awesome in the movie, which is something I noticed again the second time. It's also shot on 60mm,

I want to say. So it has that grain to it. From a visual standpoint, I really enjoyed it. If I wasn't already queer, I'd be queer for Cate Blanchett. That's a great way of putting that. I love everything that she does.

And I think that she's like maybe, no, she's my favorite actress. So she can, in my opinion, do no wrong. And she's such a presence that it's just, it's amazing. Except for when she doesn't pass the Bechdel test in Lord of the Rings. Which we can all agree is her fault. Yeah, I was about to say, her fault.

I like to hold women accountable for when they're moving. Definitely. She did a polish on all the Lord of the Rings scraps. I think that originally, okay, let's make this canon. The movie did pass the Bechdel test quite a bit, and Cate Blanchett went into meetings and was just like, I just am not comfortable with women speaking to each other. That is on her.

That tracks. That is true. Anyway, sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, it's fine. So I remember loving her in it and just thinking it was a really beautiful film and sad and melancholic and very reflective of that time

and important that we tell those stories and how difficult it was because I think sometimes we're like, especially in Los Angeles, we're like, oh, everything's fine, everything's fine now, you know? Yeah. So I think it's an important part of queer history, those kind of stories. But it didn't, it didn't like go into the canon of one of my favorite queer films though.

And I didn't really know why that was until the second time around and watching it and realizing that Rooney Mara is about as interesting as a piece of cardboard. And so, and like. I mean, we'll get into that. I just, I, yeah, we will. But in watching it the second time, I have some issues. But it had been funny to me because like all of my queer female friends were obsessed with that movie. And I remember just being like, huh, I wonder why it hasn't like stuck with me.

And now I know. Now you know. Caitlin, what about you? Oh, I didn't see it in the theater, but I did watch it. I knew that it had like a lot of buzz around it. So I made sure to watch it pretty soon afterward. And I similarly thought it was visually beautiful. I think it's boring.

That is the most popular opinion I've heard. Yeah. And I have reasons to back this up, which we will get into. And it has largely to do with the what I think is a lack of onscreen chemistry between Cate Blanchett and Rooney Mara. But yeah, we'll get there. But yeah, I only had seen it that once before prepping for this episode. So I don't have much of a grand history with it. But yeah, I'm excited to talk more about it. Jamie, what about you? I hadn't this was this movie came out in 2015, which was truly before I saw movies in theaters. So I didn't see it when it came out. I remember there were multiple of my aunts who told me to go see it.

My aunts all saw it together and they were just like, it's beautiful, you have to see it. And I'm like, I don't listen to my aunts. I'm an adult. My aunts loved it. But I mean, I really enjoyed it. It's so weird because we were talking in the car, driving over about it, and you were like, I really, I really enjoyed it. I also, it's so weird because we were talking in the car, driving over about it.

And you were like, I think it's boring. I was like, oh, I really liked it. But and then later I was like, I was asleep for like 10 minutes a couple different times. But then I would have to like, but then when I rewound it, I'm like, it's so beautiful. But I was asleep sometimes. But it was so beautiful. Should I do the recap? recap yeah let's do it okay so it's the end of I think 1951 I believe I think that's right yeah it's right around the holidays we meet Therese that's Rooney Marr's character uh she works at a department store and at work she catches the eye of a woman who is shopping for a gift for her

daughter because women be shopping and women be mothers and this is carol uh kate blanchett's character and carol approaches therese they get to talking and then Carol accidentally leaves her gloves behind at the department store. Accidentally. I've done that before. That's a great move. We've all left earrings or something. A guy did that with his jewel pot

at my house. Hey, I think I left my jewel. Modern day Carol. Yeah, the update Carol leaves her jewel pot on the counter see I like but guys are not crafty enough to have

done that accidentally with an asterisk that's just no he left his jewel it's the George Costanza move though from Seinfeld. I think we should credit it. Oh, okay. Far be it for me to channel Seinfeld.

Which I assume is borrowing from the Patricia Highsmith novel. That's what Larry David was... George Costanza and Carol are contemporaries in every way. That was his move. He used to leave something in a girl's apartment and stuff that he took on. Good going. Seinfeld. But we are on an insane tangent.

I apologize. Carol leaves her gloves. Yes. Then we see Carol at home, and she has a husband, Harge. He's the guy from Friday Night Lights. Yes. That's truly. And he doesn't act well enough to convince me he's not the guy from Friday Night Lights

in this particular movie. I'm like, okay, it's Mr. Coach. I think he does a fine job. But anyway, so she has a husband. She has a daughter named Rindy, who she loves so much. She loves her daughter, Rindy. They are rich. Important to know that.

And then there is a mention of Carol's good friend, Abby, who we will meet later on, who Harge... Sarah Paulson. Harge clearly has a problem with. And then we see a little bit of Therese's life. She has a boyfriend named Richard who wants her to go to Europe with him. She has an interest in photography. And then she mails the gloves back to Carol.

I like that she's a photographer. I think in the book she's not a photographer. But then in the movie she is a photographer because she's not like the other girls. Oh yeah, have either of you read the book that this is based on? No, I haven't. Okay, that's quite all right.

Yeah, but I have not read it. We'll go a little bit into the history of this book, the adaptation and all that. I've read the Wikipedia page of the book. Yeah, to be clear, neither of us have read the book. We're not like, we would never read a book. None of us. But we just did some research on the adaptation changes.

So Carol takes Therese to lunch to say thank you for returning the gloves. We learn that Carol is in the middle of a divorce. And then Carol invites Therese to her very large house. They hang out. And then Harge comes home and he's like, who is this lady? Football game. Football. High school.

Texas. Friday night lights. He's like, Carol, you know, come with me for Christmas. She's like, no, I don't want to. We're getting a divorce. And then he's all pissed off and they fight. Football. Football.

Give me my daughter. The big game's coming up. Touchdown. Fuck. And then soon after, Carol learns from her lawyer that Harge is filing for sole custody of their daughter on the grounds of a morality clause. Because basically because she's had a relationship with women she is considered an unfit mother so carol is obviously very upset about this and then therese and her are hanging out some more and then her boyfriend richard is upset with her he's like you have a crush on a

woman and she's like no i don't but yes she does i like how therese like she's she doesn't stand up for herself in a lot of areas of her life but against richard she's always just like shut up like anytime really is like i was i was like oh my i wish i could do that where he's just like why don't you want to be my girlfriend and she's like leave me alone go away i don't want to meet your mom like she manages to do all of it showing little to no emotion hey hey now so So there's that, which is really impressive. Oh, no. Where she's like, stop, go away.

Full blank face. I'm going to be such a Rooney Mara defender in this episode, which I can tell is not going to be possible. Here's what I'm going to say. I actually really like Rooney Mara in other things. So this is not me hating on Rooney Mara. No, totally, totally. things so like i'm not this is not me like hating on runy mara and no totally from a queer standpoint i wanted her so bad in girl with the dragon tattoo because that's my type and i haven't

seen that movie so this is one of the few things she's so good at it runy mara and but anyway anyway sorry it does seem like her being boring in this movie was a choice because like yeah she can do not boring definitely that's why it was very well I have a theory should we wait till the end of it yeah okay but we'll get there so soon I have thoughts about why she's boring okay so

the rest of this recap here we go so then Carol and Therese leave together to go on a road trip to the Midwest and they're getting closer and closer there's a hand touch here there's a hand on the shoulder there and then at one point the rustling of fabric there's like shots of a steering wheel and you're just like it's all so beautiful and then you're like i'm sleeping and then at one point to raise suggests that they share a motel room rather than get two

separate rooms and then shortly after this they finally kiss the mama we've been waiting for new year's new year's eve yes it's the new year they kiss during the ball drop and then they have sex and then they meet what seems like a nice gentleman on their travels but he turns out to be does he seem nice he seems creepy yeah and overbearing hi i have magazines want to buy the riddler yeah like yeah he's creepy and the movie tells you he's creepy because whenever uh you like hear his voice off screen before you see him and then as soon as you like hear his voice the camera tilts up really fast and like a startling like oh who's this guy so

you're like we know not to trust him but we don't know why yet right but the reason why is that he is a private snoop kind of guy who harge had hired to follow carol and to race around to record them to have further evidence in his case in this divorce so then carol gets on a flight back to new york and her friend abby sarah paulson's character then Carol gets on a flight back to New York and her friend Abby, Sarah Paulson's character, flies in to drive Therese back to New York. And then Carol has left a letter that effectively breaks off their relationship. She's like, we shouldn't have any contact. And, you know, bye forever. Therese is devastated, understandably. And then we cut to some time later. She's developing some photos she took carol has been

seeing a psychotherapist she's clearly trying to do whatever it takes so that she can keep seeing her daughter therese makes an effort to contact her but then eventually stops and it's at this point that carol has had it she's like i'm gonna see my daughter, and I'm going to keep being with women, and that's my final offer. The direct quote. Yes. She bangs her fist on the table. Damn it. And then the guy's like, oh, football.

Football. He gets scared in his eyes. And then Carol contacts Therese, and then they meet up. And then it's the same scene we see in the very beginning which we weren't really sure what was going on but now we get it Carol asks if Therese wants to come live with her in her new apartment and then Therese is like no I don't think so Carol says I love you and just then they get interrupted and Therese goes to a party and then Carrie Brownstein is like making eyes at her there.

And we're like, sure, why not? Okay. And then, but then Therese returns to the restaurant where Carol is at. And then they look at each other and then they smile and then they're going to be together. Oh, it's so nice. The end. Also, Therese becomes a photographer at the New York Times. Yeah. And still is saying nothing. Well, I think that. Like in the once. the end also Therese becomes a photographer at the New York Times yeah and

still is saying nothing I think in the ones is she not just like a I think she's like a file clerk yeah I think she's like what they let girls do back then which is sit in a room with men and take notes of what the men said yes I think she's got a glow up though it's better

oh for sure yeah yeah she's doing well for a woman She's got a glow up, though. It's better than blue. Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. No, she's doing well for a woman. So that's the story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back for the discussion. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate.

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Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Yes. There's so much to talk about. Well, why don't we hand it over to the two of you and talk about the representation of queerness and queer women in this movie and how you felt it was handled and just your general thoughts on that. I well, I should say I love this movie. I unabashedly love this movie. I think I'm in the minority of not just queer women, but like anyone like I have definitely both online and in person been mildly shamed for finding this movie riveting because most people do think it's super boring. I've also been the opposite of kink shamed for thinking it's hot.

Like people have active. You just made it. I saw it. Nicole just made it. I think this movie is hot. I will defend that later. But yeah, I think I'm in the minority. That being said, I think it's a good depiction

I mean it is you know it is of a very specific time period it definitely has its issues I think watching it this time I think there are two people of color in the entire movie they do not speak they're in service

positions yeah and you know we make the argument like well it's that time and they like of this stature they wouldn't they'd only be interacting with white people and like yes that's true but also what the fuck right um so yes i think this movie has these issues in terms of queerness specifically i think it's a great depiction uh I can talk now about what I perceive please yeah I know one of the kind of issues that I have with it I think more so with Richard is that so Therese is like a blank slate and so I think for a lot of it's like people projecting what they like when Richard's like I love you I want to spend my life with you. It's like, what do you love about her, dude? Like,

what are you into? The exact question I had to every single person who was like, actually, Carrie Brownstein at the end, she's like, how do you know Phil or something?

She's like, well, I assume like everybody here is Phil's friends. And Carrie Brownstein looks at her and goes, I see why Phil speaks so highly of you. And I was like,

why? Why? She said words. That line is a misstep. Horrible. I agree with that. You're like, what do you see? It's just crazy.

She's a photographer. She's not like the other girl. She's not like the other girl. She has a fantastic haircut, especially for that era. It stands out in a crowd. But I think with Carol initially, I think it's very definitely like a physical attraction and like a I will call it a vibe which I think in 1951 like that's what you had to go off of like if there was any sort of electricity you're like I guess I'll aggressively follow that because otherwise I'm never gonna meet

anyone right ever like that's just sort of how it was and I do think that Carol and Therese, I think Carol does get to know her as a person and does love her for her. You can argue that the audience has to do a lot of that work on their own of like. All of it. I mean. I know because I kept thinking the same thing because like we don't, we see those pretty shots of them with the hand and the wheel and this and the whatever. But like the actual getting, we don't get to know Therese, much less Cate Blanchett. Like we don't have any idea why she actually likes her other than this initial chemical attraction that they have. And I'm not sure that, agreeing with you, I'm not sure I buy that anyway.

Their chemistry, I've seen much better chemistry, but like. But, like, I don't think it's horrible. But I just, to me, I'm like, I can't. What's wrong with me? I cannot. Cate Blanchett is so, she has so much power to her character. And she is so well-rounded. And there's just, there is so much that she brings to the table that you're like why this blank slate of a person well I think that's part of what she's attracted to I think Therese plays everything like so close

to the vest you can argue that there's nothing underneath the vest if you like but I prefer to think of it as like Carol that character everything is just out like it is just out there there's no subtlety there's like and Therese is like a mystery or you know like she's got and some people are drawn to that especially people who are very like spotlight on me all the time I do think there's an attraction to people who are more like like what is she thinking which is a line that she said she's like do you know how many times a day I ask you that yeah I like I liked I ask you that? I liked Therese. I liked Therese, too. In the book, I don't know.

I mean, because Rooney Mara, I think, is like 30 when this movie is filmed or something like that. But the character Therese and the ages, I feel like, are sort of intentionally not stated in the movie because of the actors. But Therese is supposed to be like 19 or 20. She's supposed to be really young. And so I'm like, who has a personality when they're 19? And they're, you know. Oh, I had a magnetic personality when I was 19. Well, I certainly didn't.

Like I, especially if I was around like an older person that I was like sexually intimidated by and had a huge crush on. And I don't know. Like I, again again it's like it's it's weird because i agree with both of you that it is it is a boring movie but but there are also i i i really i don't know i i like related to her with just there were moments where her personality like she snapped at richard constantly because she just wasn't intimidated by him and was very direct with the people she wasn't intimidated by him and was very direct

with the people she wasn't intimidated by yes she was she kind of disappears 100% and I was like oh that's how I was when I was 19 hopefully I wasn't quite that boring but there's you know boring representation in this movie is high well someone needs to represent I mean there's not enough of that there's boring person erasure and I think this movie does a lot in that area but yeah no I think with the with the with people she's not intimidated by it specifically men because in that scene at night

with that guy Danny in the office he's like oh I think like right before he kisses her and he's like I think people are and she's like I don't think that at all right yeah she tells him the pinball yeah oh the whole thing where he's just, I don't think that at all. Right. Yeah. She tells him. The pinball. Yeah. Oh, the whole thing where he's just like. She said something about pinballs. Yeah.

I mean, that was a very abstract scene. We're like just balls of energy. Yeah. Like bouncing off of one another. And she like disagrees with him. Yeah. She's like, I don't think that. But then, yeah, with Carol, she's very.

I let myself get hopelessly sidetracked, as I do. But what I was going to say, Nicole, is like in seeing this, since Nicole and I both volunteer facilitate at the LA LGBT Center. And in in doing that, and in seeing in talking to like, so many women who are like just coming out, so especially in the early 1950s, especially when she's like 2021, whatever. I think it's like she's not a fully formed person because she hasn't reckoned with that part of herself. So I think she literally is a blank slate because there's this huge part of her.

Like, she's gay, you guys. Like, she's fucking gay as fuck. Like, she sees girl and she's like, meh. It's like she's this girl who hasn't had any of that developed. So she's coming across as just like this literally empty vessel I don't know it was really interesting for me to watch this movie having now met so many women who are just initially coming out and like coming into themselves and I was like oh I have decided to believe that that Rooney Mara is making a really intelligent uh choice. And that's what I've decided to believe.

Sounds like me on the Paddington episode. Yes, I definitely see that read of it. And I hadn't considered that before. So thank you. I suppose where I was coming from it is that to me, like, as I said, there wasn't, didn't feel like there was that much chemistry on screen between the two of them.

And I wondered if that had anything to do, even though i think they're both excellent actors like and i do like runy mara i do think she's as we said the first scene in the social network we've all seen it and i do like her in girl with a dragon tattoo and everything like that but um yeah i found her perhaps too withdrawn in in this movie but i'm wondering if the lack of chemistry had to do with them both being straight or at least married to men i don't know exactly how runy mara and kate blanchett identify but they're married to men so i'm wondering would there have been more chemistry would it have been like a hotter lesbian romp if they if they had cast queer women well and potentially i think that that that's true um i mean and who knows they've never to my knowledge have never come out one way

or another if anybody can correct me on that but um yeah i mean the problem is that you know with a movie like that or like a movie like disobedience or whatever these like big movies that we're seeing coming out that actually are starring um queer women or uh which I'm calling what was the one this year with your girlfriend uh Rachel Weisz my girlfriend yeah oh the favorite which I absolutely loved like you need are they think that you need big star names. And there are just almost no queer females who are at that level of their career. Like, at least out. So unfortunately, until either people start coming out or those queer women become famous that way, we're not going to see that. Nicole and I are fucking available about it.

We are available and we have chemistry with women. But, yeah, I think in terms of going back to the initial question about, like, how does this represent queer women and queerness, it definitely checks a couple of boxes in that you have, like, the lesbian ex-girlfriend who's now the best friend. Oh, God, yeah. Like, that is a thousand percent a lesbian trope where you just, like, you break up and then you're like, but I guess we're just besties now. And, like, that's so immediately, I was like, can you drive my current girlfriend across the country?

And she's like, sure, fine. Incredibly accommodating. Yeah. Like, it's just, exactly. So I was like, no, I'm gay. That and also the sad reality of, you know, going back to the blank slate that is Rooney Mara, the sad reality of getting completely consumed by your first girlfriend so that your entire life is about absolutely nothing but that woman. I even wrote down when I watched it the second time, I was like, wow, if there was, this is was this is gonna sound very meta since like the Bechdel test is sort of a lesbian test but if

there was like a like a Bechdel test that somehow existed for just women in a just woman world and was really for lesbians she would fail it I did think because she because her entire existence is about Carol granted the name of the movie is Carol. Fine. We can say that this is the story. But everything else just feels so unimportant and uninvested in. I don't believe her photography thing for one freaking minute. I'll be honest with you.

I just don't believe it. And it's like her whole everything is Carol. And she just, she's like, OK, whatever you say. I don't know anything really about her outside of that. whole everything is Carol. And she just, she's like, okay, whatever you say. You know? I just, I don't know anything really about her outside of that. So I was like, wow, if she were a guy, this would fail so, so hard and be so stereotypical. But I hate to say it, but like, a lot of first girlfriend situations are that way. So, yeah.

So I thought that was actually horribly accurate. The way that she talked about her photography career, I thought was always, I mean, because she is kind of a very passive character in some ways that I thought were like made sense with the character and other ways where I'm like, no, no, stand up for yourself a little bit. Where like anytime someone would bring up her photography, she'd be like, I'm horrible. I'm not good. I don't have a camera. I've never done it before. And it was like, you've been doing it for a year like please yeah it's like if like I was like actually I've only done one open mic I don't know what I'm doing I'm and then I just like buried myself alive um there were moments where I'm just like you you've done this before relax it's fine yeah I had a I have a quote from Kate Blanchett she was asked I think this was last year maybe in 2017 about um straight actors playing queer characters because that is like such a conversation that you know it's out there and she she gave like a pretty direct answer and

and when asked about Carol directly she said quote I will fight to the death for the right to suspend disbelief and play roles beyond my experience. So that was like her direct statement on straight actors playing queer characters. And I guess I just wanted to get your opinions or thoughts on that. I don't disagree with that as an actor, to be honest. And that's probably it is an unpopular opinion in some spheres right now. I don't disagree with it. I think that there are limits to that. Obviously, when we're talking about playing a different race or something, especially when the role is written specifically with a certain race in mind

and has cultural references, et cetera, that is a line, obviously. But something like with the queer characters, I just, the problem is that you can take this argument that people are making to an extreme so that actors are only ever allowed to play what their experience is, and then what is acting, you know, I think, like, and we can see that being taken to that place by certain people in casting and producers and stuff right now anyway. That said, I understand trying to balance it so that you are getting actors seen for roles that they hadn't been seen for before. Like it just wasn't okay to be an out actor for so long and when you have only you know straight people playing gay roles people go wow what what about all of our queer actors you know

and then queer actors so for so long haven't been allowed to play straight roles quote unquote when being out because no one can see them as anything else but gay. But when a straight actor plays gay, they're like, well, yeah, they're an actor. They get nominated. And they're like, oh, right. Brave. Yeah. So that's where that is problematic and where people need – something needs to shift so that actors can just be actors, you know, I think. Yeah.

I'm still processing my feelings on this and have been for, like, probably a year now because it's come so much into the forefront with people like Scarlett Johansson and the issue and I think I fall way more on the side of like hey let's not do that in terms of cis actors playing trans characters that to me does feel more black and white where it's like hey let's stop doing that yeah I agree but then that has forced me to be like, okay, Lauren, if that's your feeling on that, then does that translate to, you know, straight actors playing queer actors?

And ultimately, I think I do lean more towards what Nicole is saying, where it's like, no, that feels like a different, it's the same, maybe it's the same, like, ballpark, but it's like a different, look, I don't know, baseball. It's like right field, left field. Like, it's a different part of the same ballpark. but it's a different look. I don't know baseball. It's right field, left field. It's a different part of the same ballpark. Talk about it in Mr. Football terms.

Friday Night Light. Yeah, and also I never want Rachel Weisz to stop playing queer characters. Please, God. So I can never firmly come down and decide that. I think for something like Batwoman, like, let's all fucking support, like, the fact that they actively look to cast a queer female and, like, let's all support the fuck out of that show. And, like, yes, I'm so glad it's Ruby Rose. But I think, like Nicole is saying, let's look to get more of that. But I don't think it should be an exclusive, like. It shouldn't be a requirement.

Yeah, I agree. It becomes very, very difficult. Not to mention that casting starts to become extremely difficult. Well, right now you literally can't do it. What, is Kristen Stewart going to literally play every fucking role? Please, God, no. Speaking of cardboard acts. You can't do it right now.

That one I agree with, yeah. Actually, it's funny. I thought of Kristen Stewart several times while watching Rooney Mara in this movie because I was like, this must be the thing that everybody is like, well, there's a mystique. I'm like, oh, God, give me personality. Mystique can really go fuck itself. I don't know.

But mystique is the only thing boring people have. Have you ever had an experience like that with someone where you're just like, But mystique is the only thing boring people have. There's so many. Have you ever had an experience like that with someone where you're just like, I don't know. What are they all about? What's going on? And then you get to know them. You're like, oh, they're boring. I think maybe I'm a Rooney Mara apologist because I think I fall for that a lot.

I think a lot. Traditionally in the past. I'm working on all of this in therapy you guys taking care of it but I think I have been guilty of the like oh that girl's mysterious and then like you get to know her and you're like oh that girl's boring so maybe I relate I feel like it goes one of two ways your your mystique is either boring or you're fucked up it's like one yeah yeah what a fun journey every time yeah exactly or or the the strange is fucked up. It's like one thing. Yeah. What a fun journey every time. Yeah, exactly.

Or the strangest, fucked up and yet still boring. Oh, wow. Let's see more of that. Yeah, where are all my fucked up boring people at? I might be one of them. I don't know. We need to take another quick break,

but we will be right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price.

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They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. They're just dreams. for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago, when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent

revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current, available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Speaking of back, should we talk a little bit about the back story of this? Cut out a seat left. Yeah, let's talk Patricia High yes while we're at it yes let's uh i did not know that much i knew i knew her name and i knew i did not know she had written this book uh which was originally called the price of salt

came out in 1952 but i i knew her as the writer of The Talented Mr. Ripley. She was famous for being a psychological thriller writer. Yeah, she also wrote the novel for Strangers on a Train. She's a fascinating, complicated, dare I say problematic? I would dare to say that, yes. Yeah, so she wrote this, The Price of Salt, under a pseudonym, Claire Morgan, in 1952. And then it was republished 38 years later as Carol, under Patricia Highsmith's own name. And then it was adapted into the film Carolis Nagey, I think is. Yeah, I don't know how to say her last name. But the woman who adapted the screenplay knew Patricia Highsmith in, I think, like the last 10 years of her life, which I think is like kind of like a rare, rare success in adaptation.

But anyways, back to Patricia. Yes. Carol screenwriter Phyllis Nagey, something like that, described Highsmith as a lesbian who did not very much enjoy being around other women. And this is something that you'll find a lot concerning how Highsmith was described and considered. She seemed to be a misogynist. She did not like other women. She basically would sometimes have sex with men just because she enjoyed their company more. Oh, God. Her whole, I mean, there's a lot of...

It's not going well. The internalized misogyny is strong with this one. Yes. Yeah. yes yeah she was compared to being a movie studio boss who would chase starlets speaking of this movie was produced by the weinstein company yes the first frame you're like oh i know no uh she was also pretty racist she was very racist anti-semitic so there's a lot of problems with her uh the yeah that she was described as quote a lesbian with a misogynist streak unquote and then there are a few people that are like she was actually you know like she struggled with a lot of depression there was a lot

of mental illness going on as well that seemed to get worse as she grew older a very complicated person one thing i found out about her that i just want to share with the class is that she had 300 snails okay so she had 300 snails and one time she went to a party with a huge handbag full of 100 snails eating lettuce and if i read that i was like that could so you're like did you ever read an anecdote where you're like that could be me in 40 years easily easily i mean you had those leeches i had my i was like she just like brought her snails out. There's the expression you lead with your crazy.

If you can't handle me with my 100 snails in a bag, you don't deserve me. I have no snails. I mean, that's a lesbian trope though, right? Just bringing a bunch of snails around. The snails in a bag thing, I mean, her Wikipedia a lesbian trope though, right? Just bringing a bunch of snails around. The snails in a bag thing. I mean, her Wikipedia page is just, it is fucking wild.

They're like, she's racist. She's misogynist. She wrote the first lesbian novel ever and she has 300 snails. And you're just like, what is going on? I read that she wrote the first lesbian novel with a happy ending yes sorry i should have oh yeah sure yeah which is another huge thing that i was gonna yeah i was definitely gonna comment on that actually how like it's a funny thing because throughout watching the movie again and with an eye for a bechdel test kind of stuff i couldn't

help but feel because it's, that even though it is two, repeatedly two women in a room talking more than two lines of dialogue about things that aren't about a man, so it clearly passes, the presence of a man, a man specifically, like looms over everything to the point where there are like, with the exception of the last moment of the movie, there are no enjoyable moments. It's like, there's no moment where you really can just let go.

Even the, even the score does that right when they're having sex, it's like, like big, like scary sort of like ominous sounding music, you know, which, so there's this cloud over everything.

And it definitely that sort of unfortunate trope of queer cinema or queer content where like they have sex and then it all goes wrong, like immediately happens. I did like that they balked that a little bit in the sense that they still had sex again that night. So it was a little bit of an F you. But then she leaves again the next day. So it's like until that last moment, the presence of a man is hanging over every single thing that happens. And granted, that is the time period. But I do think that this film, I don't want to say it's problematic,

but it definitely still falls in that category of like, well, I don't know i don't want to be a queer person like that like that's a it's a it's a difficult queer story yeah well i was going to say that um yes i guess this movie technically has a happy ending because we're to understand that they end up together but at such such a huge cost where Carol has to sacrifice so much for her daughter. Right. So, I mean, it's not that happy, especially, I mean, we see how much she loves her daughter. And that she has to go into therapy to continue to see her daughter.

Oh, see, I thought that was like, I thought that she was calling a stop-tell. I thought, like, the compromise that she offers is, like, I can't go against my own grain. I'm going to live my life. Like, I'm insisting on visitation, but I'm going to go off and be gay. But then she says she only saw her daughter, like, once or twice. Yeah, but that... But my understanding is that the court...

Or not the court hearing. Whatever, with the stenographer. Whatever the hell that is. Yeah, some sort of... I thought that that happened, like, days before she sees Tourette. Oh, I guess we don't know how much time has passed. That is confusing. I don't think so because they're already selling the house.

She already has an apartment and a job. That didn't happen in a couple of days. Solid point. This has been a couple months, easily. I think I was, because I read about Patricia Highsmith before I watched the movie all the way through. And it does seem like there are elements of Patricia Highsmith's life that are included in this movie because she was a Bloomingdale's girl and she was in therapy for many years, essentially a version of gay conversion therapy that she very much wanted to work.

So that was how I read it. But I think that was just because I had just finished reading all this about Patricia Highsmith of like they frame her sexuality as basically a mental illness. And then you see her in therapy and I'm like, oh, that doesn't seem good. But it's not specific. I don't know. I guess what I really like about this movie is that both characters, both Therese and Carol, are unapologetic about their sexuality

and they're not keeping it a secret from at least the people around them. Like Richard knows about her crush on Carol. Harge knows. Also, Harge? What is that name? Har carol harge knows also harge what is that name harge knows arch the whole first time i saw the movie also what is that name though but um so harge knows about carol and yes at the end she says like i'm not gonna go against my grain here's

my final offer i want visitation rights but yeah i mean she doesn't have custody of her daughter harge has sole custody and so and we know that harge is like a dysfunctional alcoholic so yeah her daughter is not better off right because we see carolette you know she's a great mom and she like loves her daughter and brushes her hair so much it was just like if you have to clean out your daughter's brush every day, my friend, your daughter is going bald. Too aggressive. But hey, baldest woman in charge. Rindy will someday be

in charge. But yeah, so I mean, it makes me appreciate the era that we live in now, which is still not great, but at least, you know, homosexuality isn't considered a mental illness anymore you know all that so i like that they're unapologetic about their sexuality but it still comes at a great cost especially for carol and her daughter so it does and yeah so it is hard

to feel happy i didn't feel happy at the end of that movie, that's for sure. It's not very uplifting. No, it's just not an uplifting movie. But she smiled. But her smile did make me cry. I also, I mean, and again, part of this goes back, I promise I will cease and desist soon on this point, but I also look at it and I'm like, for that girl? Like, for her?

I mean, I look at you know the the relationship with Abby I totally understand like that that friendship and that closeness and all of that sacrificing for that relationship I really get and sacrificing just for who you are regardless of who you're with or if you're with anybody I totally get but like But, like, for that girl also, and I just have to say this because this is sadly on brand for lesbians, but the, like, oh, we went on a two-week trip together and then we didn't speak and now do you want to move in is, like, such a U-Haul move, like, lesbian U-Haul move.

Yeah, 100%. And that's just, like, normal. Oh, God. Well, Carol's so much, like, I remember the first time that I saw this in the theaters, I remember being so cringey about how, like that first scene where they have food and she's like, would you like to visit me this Sunday? Like, it's like, what are you doing? You just learned, you just asked her her first name.

Right. Like seconds before. So yeah, there's definitely, there's a lot of cringeworthy lesbian stereotype it didn't feel as predatory as sort of like the predatory romance that you see in like deb's but there's still like a huge power dynamic imbalance between the two of them where carol is much wealthier she is older and she's more sexually experienced yes and then she i and and also in in this movie and this was like an adaptation change that i when i like figured out that that had been changed i was like oh i

don't really like that they made her a virgin in this movie was she not in the book no she had been having set she'd been having unfulfilling sex with richard and like there was more context for it yeah and then i feel like they almost do that character kind of a disservice by being like you know she's just floating around like i don't know and it's not a madonna whore thing but that choice is just sort of indicative of like washing that character and making her even you know because it's like if she not saying that if you're a virgin you don't have any life experience but it it just having that character have some experience going into that relationship would have made me feel more comfortable with the relationship happening because you're like the power dynamics are a little off and I mean we're sort of led to believe that it's brought up a bunch of times even though

she still has her own apartment in Greenwich Village but she's a shop girl she's young she can't really afford to pursue her passion like she's in a very very different position as carol and yeah and i don't know i was trying to picture movies with i mean there's a ton of movies about hetero relationships where there's a man who's much older wooing a much younger woman and this is not that movie but there are elements of that where it's like oh that should have been a discussion i feel like abby's the only one who really brings it up right is like she's so young are I feel like Abby's the only one who really brings it up. Right. Is like, she's so young. Are you sure that you should do this?

Abby's the best character in this film. Yes. Like, she's the most grounded, like, she's fucking great. Uh-huh. But I will say with Carol and Therese, because I did watch it through a 2019 lens, it's like a hundred, as far as I could tell, it's fully consent-based.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely. She's asking aggressively, but she doesn't do anything without being like, is this okay? Would you like to do this? Like blah,

blah, blah. And with the sex scene, it's like, like Therese is the one who's like, take me to bed. Yes. And it's like never implied that they would have any reason to feel unsafe around each other.

Right. Too, which is like makes a huge difference. as far as i could tell carol never holds anything over therese in terms of like well i have more money than you or i am like old like she never like uses that like the imbalance of power to her advantage as far as i could it just goes kind of unacknowledged. It's just like a thing that exists. Right. I don't know. It would just be nice to see more representation in mainstream movies of queer women where it wasn't such an imbalance of power. It would be nice to see a movie about two queer women where no one has to make a huge sacrifice.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it would be nice to see more queer women of color it'd be nice to see more you know trans and non-binary people in in mainstream movies and the thing that i see people asking for a lot on on queer twitter as it were is like hey can we get more movies where both women are already out and that's not like realizing or coming to terms is not an element of the plot right um and i think that would be great more of that please indeed i wanted to talk about how just briefly about how the men are kind of presented in this movie because each and every

single male character who we get to know even the slightest bit is horrible i kind of appreciated how the worst they were i mean there was i don't know yeah what did everyone think about the men i just i was like yeah fine mr football is mad he well he's like often drunk he's usually full of rage and jealousy he's very spiteful when it comes to he prop falls a bunch he's drunkenly falling

I think one of the things and I and I I am obviously in the minority in this but I really like Kyle Chandler as a

as an actor and I also loved Friday Night Lights it's so good I loved Rules yes it's so good

if anybody hasn't seen it watch it and like I hate football seen it, watch it. And like I hate football. So it's not about that. But anyway, but partly where I think like the disservice to the men in this movie and also just honestly the story in this movie is that we don't get to see in even a flashback and even in anything any part of Carol and Harjah's relationship. So, like, it is very difficult, I think, to imagine those two people being together, other than they're both wealthy and good-looking, I guess. Like, I mean, really? It's very difficult to imagine it because we see so little of any of the love left between them.

And I don't know. I would have liked to see because she says like her big last line is she's leaving that meeting or what the lawyer is like i like wrote it down she's so good i mean it was god it was so it's like the best best scene in the movie i think but her voice cracks at the exact perfect oh she's so good but like she says something you know uh then it will get ugly or it'll get yeah ugly and we're not ugly people or something like that. It's like something along those lines. And I guess I just wanted to be like, wow, I would have really liked to see him not being ugly then at some point or, and like some

semblance of like real good guy-ness about him that I can imagine he has, but isn't there. Because you can see his face and he seems to be coming to an understanding or he seems to be like you're right carol like but that's not who he understood him to be previously because he was completely like bullheaded and i kind of do i sort of have a different take again carol apologies over here but i well what i love about all the men in this movie is they're like so oafish, which to me is like hilarious. Like they all fall down and some like Richard falls down, like a heart falls down. But I and I'm framing it in that era.

I don't think either of those guys are like Richard's a dick, but I don't think either of those guys are like super bad guys. Like I think this is a guy who, his wife has had at least one affair that he knows about. This is a guy, he never, I feel like in a different movie, we definitely would have gotten a smack or a punch or something, because it's 1951 and the guy's drunk. And I remember watching it originally,

that's where I thought that was going. But he's the one who falls down. He's definitely too handsy with her, but I't I think he is shown to be like this oafish bumbling like this isn't how this is supposed to work kind of guy right but I don't think he's evil even Richard I don't think is like terrible like I love that line where he's like you made me buy boat tickets like he's this dude who's like, what the fuck? Like I thought we were a thing. The moment that I did really like,

I was like, oh, that she kind of did him dirty on that one where he was. Yeah. Cause she, she's been saving up money to go on vacation with him. And she's like, actually,

I just met this really cool. It kind of sucks. Like that does suck. I do actually. And I, this really cool lady. Yeah, it kind of sucks. See you later. Like, that does suck. I do actually, and I often am the one who's feeling bad for men in queer movies because sometimes I do think,

especially in lesbian films, they get, like, the short end of the stick and are shown to be just, like, these, like, bumbling idiot oafs, like, whatever. And I'm like, and especially as, like,

the resident bisexual in the room, I'm like, come on. Not all guys are like that. Hashtag not all men. Yeah. Like, that's, you know. And it actually, and I also think that stories are more interesting when you have more realistic portrayals of characters so that people aren't painted as just bad or good. Yes.

And there is a little bit more ambiguity because it makes it more difficult for the characters to make decisions when you know you're dealing with two good people versus one good and one bad, you know? So I think that they could have done a little bit better of a job with the men in this, making them slightly more multidimensional. The one guy who I really liked is the guy with the accent who, like...

Danny? Yeah, the one who, like, tries to... Danny's, like, the one... But of course, because he's, like, the one who like tries to danny's like the one but of course because he's like the film kid you know what i mean like but yeah it's a little bit of projection but that's a great trope that i don't think we see enough that really exists in real life where it's like the guy who's into the girl and like tries to kiss her then is like oh my bad you're queer you're not into it like now i'm gonna be your best friend and help you paint your apartment and he's just like so chill and cool and he's like i think you really like this lady

and she's like no i don't and he's like come on girl i just think he's like a really good dude but also he knew that she had a boyfriend richard at the time and he still tried to kiss her yeah he's he's shitty to his friends and to like't have tried to kiss her. And to like, yeah. But I think once he realizes like, and that's a problem in and of itself. He should treat her like a person even if she's straight and not into him. But at least in 1951,

once that guy realizes like, oh, she's not into it. He's not like, bye forever. He's like, let me help you pay your apartment. He helps her get a job at the time. Yeah. Yeah, he does come through for her yeah quite a bit but he shouldn't have tried to kiss her no but to be super inappropriate to be

fair i even afterwards was like wait does she have a boyfriend because she makes she's so like blase and non-committal about richard that like he probably is like are they even dating i mean i as the audience member was like are they even dating? I mean, I, as the audience member, was like, are they even dating? I did question that, too. Or is this, like, Richard thinking that they're dating, which totally happens, you know? Moby. That is so tropical. Oh, it's such a movie.

Yeah, yeah, where you're just like, are you, what? I don't know. It's so embarrassing to watch. Yeah, yeah. Something about the Harge character, I think that that, again, was a weird adaptation thing because as far as I can tell in the book, he is mentioned, but he's barely in it. He's not a main character at all.

Oh, wow. That's interesting. So his character's part was really beefed up for the movie. And I mean, it's weird. It's kind of like what everyone was saying. It seems like the fact he's not like a monster outright, but I don't understand why, as much as I love Mr. Football's pratfalls

and him being like, why you no love me no more? Like being pissed and litigious, whatever male villain tropes are employed there. I feel like if you're going to beef up that part and you want to make it like a nuanced complicated movie show that he's heartbroken show that he's confused like show that he doesn't like in less of a broad strokes way because that almost felt like out of step with what the movie was trying to do with different relationships where like carol and abby's

friendship is so nuanced and subtle and cool and like most of the ways that people relate in this movie seem to be going for that subtlety but it's weird like harge's character is like kind of broad for this movie where he's just like mad alcoholic husband and i mean i don't even know where i fall on it because i'm like i mean i just if they were going to use him on screen that much, I wish it had been in a way that was a little more nuanced in servicing the story instead of just him becoming a litigious villain. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, especially if she's going to suggest at the end that that's not who he is deep down. And yeah, like you were saying, Nicole, it's like, well, we've only seen him drunk and angry. Yeah. And I mean, like, I get the, it seems as though what they were going for, maybe, with the

men in these women's lives, right? So Richard and Harge, is that when men are heartbroken, they get angry. Like, and that is how they deal with being heartbroken, is through anger and not vulnerability. I mean, because like, he shows he shows hard shows up at abby's and like when he has nothing left to say when abby's like stonewalled him and been like she's not here i am closing the door and he's like but i love her and she's like i can't help you with that and i think that those simple two lines say everything about the men in this movie in so many ways where it's like it is not the women's responsibility to cater to the men's feelings. You know, like you guys have fallen in love of your own accord. Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't.

And we can apologize for the things where we legitimately are wrong and have hurt you. But also then like it's up to you to be a big boy and take care of yourself without being destructive. Yeah. And I think both of those men are coming from a point of view where they're like, if A then B. They're like, well, if I love you, then that's it. Then you must love me. Neither of those guys gets a feeling of ownership and entitlement. A hundred percent.

And I mean, in the 1950s, speak about an era where men did not know how to process their feelings. And were not encouraged to. I mean, it's not even their fault entirely. You know, they were not, that was a weakness. So, yeah. I guess I wish it were a little clearer that, like, in the book, it seems like it's clear that the, whatever, villain, if there is a villain of this story is the culture that they're living in oh definitely it doesn't allow them to be who they are but in this movie i feel like they almost take the shortcut of being like it's the guys that's a great point

it's such an insular movie it's one of those movies where it's like is this a stage play where it's just like you don't really get a sense of the outside world at all. It's like, that's my ride. I'm going to ride a giant drill out of here. Like, everything that we're saying about, oh, at that time, it's just because we know that. Like, you don't see a lot of, like, the outside world pressuring this and that. It's like we're inferring that because all of us know what it was like to be queer in 1950.

But you're right. It is one of those super insular movies where we're just really seeing the characters we're seeing and there's not a lot of different people running around being like, I don't like queers. And then they just cross the street and we never see them again. People just did that. Day players talking about how they don't like queer people.

It is basically just like, it's a close-knit sort of film. So everything that we've been saying about like, oh, the time period and stuff, we're not really shown that. We just, we know that or we hear about it. Also, like, everybody in this film has extremely fine-tuned gaydar, which I, like, don't understand. I mean, Richard, like, Richard has really no reason to believe that Therese has a crush on Carol,

but he, like, picks it up on it right away. And says it. Like, it's not a thing. I know. Like, it is very weird. And then, like, every random lesbian

that Therese runs into is, like, staring at her from across the room because they're all like I smell you and you're like what? Yeah Carrie Brownstein is like two like random lesbos in the record shop Oh my god I know they clog

her like immediately. Yeah and also everybody who has gaydar just stares like it's like just blatantly like. To be fair that's my move but I mean it's it is a little bit it's a little silly and on the nose obviously but also because like there was a whole code it was like the handkerchief code i think yeah um for gay men where you would like wear a certain color handkerchief in your back

pocket to show that a you were queer but like b what like type of queer you were and what you were into so other men could pick up on it so it's like guys like if gaydar were really as good as it's shown in carol no one would have needed the handkerchief coat so like it's just it was a little bit women had to develop it though because their clothes don't have pockets so there is another way that the glass ceiling is like we simply cannot carry the unfair standards of that are placed on women did you ever have this uh that system in high school where the color of like rubber bracelet you were wearing was like indicative of whether you were a virgin or not that was a big thing i like heard about that

i feel like that was i thought that was like an urban legend but maybe not yeah i'd heard i feel like that was a news story where they're like, they're called bracelets. Our kids are wearing them to indicate. I would wear a red bracelet my sophomore year, which you should never wear the bracelet. That means you're a virgin. But I did wear that. And then even when I was still a virgin, I swapped it out. And then every day I would look at my bracelet and be like, you're a liar. Wow, that's so intense.

I've never heard of it. It was so good. Yeah, there was an intense bracelet. I didn't know that was a real thing though. When I was in high school, I got the cartilage of my right ear pierced. And everyone's like, if you get your right ear pierced, that means you're gay. And I was like, what? I had never heard that before, but I also didn't care.

I was like, I don't give a fuck what people think my sexuality is. But yes yes there's been codes exactly i guess what i enjoyed about this movie because a lot of the the tension does end up because there's no sort of external cultural tension in terms of like society hates queer people in this movie that we see the tension then derives from largely the male characters in the movie. And the fact that they're, I mean, and this is not to say that all men are horrible, but since most movies are about how awesome men are and how freaking cool they are, and also movies where men are the focus, if there is a female character,

she's often presented as an obstacle in some way, much the way men are presented as obstacles in this movie. So it was kind of nice to see that switch. Sure. But I like it. Yeah. I don't know. It's like at the end, I'm just going to be split on this because in one way, I'm like, it's kind of lazy movie shorthand to just be like, this character symbolizes all oppression everywhere. And most people are actually really chill.

But it's also like, I don't dislike the man-hatey tropes that are employed by this movie through those characters. Because you're like, well, you don't really get to see that very much. No. Yeah. There's a think for me i wrote at times it's fun and at other times devastating and uncomfortable to see men constantly barking up the wrong trees in this movie i feel that way generally generally but like that's it is that you go back and forth and be like ha that's funny to being like oh i don't feel good richard especially is such a doof. That part where Carol

is picking up Therese and Richard's all like, I'm Richard. Hey, nice to meet you. And then Carol's like, oh, Therese speaks very highly of you. And he's like, oh, well that's swell. And he's immediately like twanking. Talk about a beard. She plays him so hard.

Yeah, you're fine. The guy from Obvious Child, too. Yeah, I know. Because he's like obscured by a hat for most of it. That's all I can see him as is like that and the guy from Girls. And I'm like, oh, that guy. He's a doof. Perfect casting for me.

Truly, yeah, he's peak doof casting. Here's something we don't often see is women eating in a movie, which we see women eat quite a bit. And we also see women driving in a way that it's not like them like, I just accidentally got on the freeway and I'm going to crash. It's not like Clueless, correct. Exactly. This movie normalizes. Especially for a period piece.

Right. So it normalizes women driving and eating. So that's my hot take. Another point I saw being made about this movie was like the cinematography, which we've, I mean, it is so beautiful that you're sleeping. But the like absence of perceived male gaze in this movie, which is funny because it's the cinematographer is a man as the director yeah yeah edward edward lockman who has a pretty stellar record of

removing or at least i don't know compartmentalizing the male gaze for the movies he's worked on he also did the he did other todd haynes movies he did far from heaven um he did the virgin suicides he did a bunch of like very female focused uh movies that concerned like women's bodies and i don't know i mean did that i mean that worked for me i thought it was very there was nothing that i felt was like objectifying or like overly you know like sexualizing women you know we see the sex scene but it it felt very tastefully done i yeah i loved it and you know like sexualizing women you know we see the sex scene but it felt very tastefully done I yeah I loved it and you know how you were saying like uh oh you see in the car like the random shot of the steering wheel or like that kind of thing I think and again I haven't

read the book but I know that the book it's based on is it's third person but it's all from Therese's point of view and I think that this movie is like shot almost entirely certainly any scenes she's in I read as her point of view which is why I think it's like you get these little chunks of like she's looking at like there's a lot of like Cate Blanchett's mouth like she's looking at her lips or she's looking at her hand or these things which to me I read as her like sort of discovering her attraction for her but yeah I thought it did a great job as being like this is what this woman's experience is and you're seeing like little glimpses of it yeah the color palette

was really reflective of that too because it was largely red and green which also was helpful because it was around Christmas time so you had that but it was like red green and gold sometimes as well but like red and green were primary and kate blanchett was like almost always wearing something red um and certainly in the first half of the movie when like runy mara is discovering her um and then like abby and runy mara and and then sometimes kate blanchett too are often wearing green or are are framed in green so for you know whatever more of like uh what is it like a obsession or there's like but there's oh danger green is also a danger color yeah too which i think is pretty cool like when you see abby pull up and she's got the green on and you're like oh danger because really she does represent like a very dangerous part of kate blanchett's life. Yeah. So, yeah. Anyway. Hopefully.

I mean, yeah. The lack of male gaze from the cinematographer. The director is a man, Todd Haynes, but he's considered, you know, he's an out gay director. He's considered a pioneer of the new queer cinema movement that emerged in the early 90s. The screenwriter is a queer woman. A lot of the producers are women. Also, Harvey and Bob Weinstein. Oops. But. Oopsie. the screenwriter is a queer woman a lot of the producers are women also harvey and bob weinstein oops but when you have a movie that's coming largely from either a female or queer perspective

or both we're not surprised that it's handled a bit better and and adapting from from a book that was also written by a queer woman yeah where like we have so many examples i always like jump straight to carrie of like why is this like very famous movie depicting women so poorly it's oh because a straight man was writing about teenage girls and that was adapted by a screenwriter who's a straight man writing about teenage girls seen through the lens of a straight man leering at teenage girls. And that's why it's fucked up. And like this movie manages to more or less avoid most of that.

And then I think sort of with the cinematography, it's like if you had to choose a male cinematographer, I mean, I would personally be like, oh, wouldn't it have been great if there was a female cinematographer in this? Or a queer female cinematographer. But if there had to be a man, this seems like this was the man for that job. That's how I felt about the director, too. Yeah. I agree.

I was thinking the same thing. Yeah. And it also took so long for this movie to get made. It took almost 20 years. I didn't know that. Yeah yeah the film rights were acquired in uh it had been in development since 97 was the first year i know and instead they released in the daddy's home year so that's yeah yeah i mean it took so long to get the movie funded properly to get the right right names attached, and just to, I think just the matter of waiting for it to seem like a quote-unquote safe movie to have a fairly wide release.

And so, you know, it's impressive that it ended up the way it did and that it happened at all. I mean, that's 18 years waiting to make a queer movie. Like, it's crazy. I read on IMDb that at some point it was like they were maybe going to try to do it like in the 1960s and who not rita hayworth but like someone was attached but that was going to be a huge thing and then i read and this sounds like a sketch but i read that a treatment was written where the name and gender were changed and it was

carl and it was done and i was like is this because anyone can edit IMDB so I was like I need to do more research on this but I want to believe that happened because that fucking table read wait that it would have been turned into a gay male story or a hetero story just yeah

and it was just like a treatment that was written and like this and it never went but I'm like how did someone spend time writing Carl? What would that story even be? And if we thought Carol's boring, like Carl would have been unwatchable. But that killed me when I read that. I honestly, I believe it. I hope it. I'm done.

I hope it's true. Carl. I want to be the intern who had to write coverage on the treatment of Carl. Or the man that had to confidently pitch it to Patricia Highsmith and be like, listen, I love what you're doing. I see what you're doing. What about Carl?

She just throws a snail at him. He's like, get out of my office. God, what a mess. Well, hey, do you think this movie passes the Bechdel test or not? Hell yeah. It sure does. A lot? It does a lot. Very much.

I don't think there's a single scene of two men talking without a woman there. I was half paying attention for that. I don't think so. There's scenes with multiple men in the room, but there's always at least a few men. I think there's without a woman there i was i was half paying attention for that i think so there's scenes with multiple men in the room but there's always at least i think there's always a woman involved though yeah yeah and then yeah there's a lot of different combinations of characters talking that pass the test between carol and therese between carol and abby abby and therese so yeah you see a lot of different combinations lots of lots of

options for uh scene study class indeed because that's like what the bechdel test means to me in my life it's like going back to college and being like why can't i find any scenes with two girls to work on and you're like because acting school is you know 80 women anyway it's really great we have to use the three guys over and over and over again in class because there are no scenes for all of us. This is also another fairly rare example of a movie that passes the Vito Russo test. And if you're not familiar with what that is,

listeners, it is a test that requires that a film must contain a character who is identifiably lgbtq plus the character must not solely or predominantly be defined by their sexual orientation or gender identity so in other words they need to be made up of the same sort of like unique character traits that are commonly used to differentiate straight characters from one another okay and so kate blanchett so right photographer she's a photographer and the queer character must be tied into the plot in such a way that their removal from the story would have a significant impact so basically they just need to matter you get god although i do i mean nicole i think that it was really interesting that how like You get Carl. You get Carl. You get Carl. You get Carl. God.

Although I do, I mean, Nicole, I think that it was really interesting that how, like, there is no Bechdel, like, or Bechdel-Wallace test for queer women that she is so defined by her relationship, which I agree is very first relationship-y and, like, you know, just thinking about anyone's first relationship is cringy yeah yeah but that that is like a good like i they i'm glad that they're like oh she also has you know like she has this aspiration she will not advocate for herself for it and she's not very good but you know she's she's going for it she's getting better she's better she has a nice nice no her pictures are nice, but it's also like the one moment where I really

where I was like, oh, fuck all this. Because I was like, in my head I was like, well, I did give her photography I guess, even though she seems only mildly passionate about it. Like, the one moment where it really all came crashing down is when what's his name, her friend Danny,

is helping her paint. And he's like, you really should do a show and says it twice. And she's not only like, oh no, you know, I'm not really good. She's like, no. And you're like, why are you so, like, she's like, I don't want to, no. And you're like, okay, so I guess you don't care.

And at some point, well, yeah. It happens off screen, but at some point she does, you know, change her mind. It happens off screen. She's painting on a wall. She's painting one wall. She's also just painting, did you guys notice, that one small section? It's like, oh, Brittany Mara, you've never done painting a wall. No, sweetheart.

It's one section. It's so fun to see actors betray their richness on screen. It's so we're doing. Yes. Anyways, I do agree that like definitely one character in this movie is more defined by a romantic relationship than definitely. Yes. Yes. Let's rate the movie on our nipple scale.

Zero to five nipples based on its portrayal and treatment of women i think i'm going to give it a four it's nice that you have a story about queer women they are certainly the focus they are driving the narrative the one character as we've discussed is not that well defined and characterized uh but you know i it's it's still better than most of the female characters we see in any given movie so there's that um it is such a white movie it is extraordinarily white and it does take place in new york for most of it so there's really not an excuse like i i it always drives us, anytime New York is in a movie

and everyone in New York is white, and then people are like, it's a period piece. And you're just like, no, you're a director. You're a writer. Like, you can include people. Especially when she's at that party

at, like, her friend Phil's place. I was watching the people on the street walking by. I was like, is one of them not going to be white? And then they walk up and I was like they're both white the party and then also at the bloomingdales type place too like why not yeah there aren't that many crowd scenes but the ones that are still almost entirely white people there could have been opportunities yes i definitely agree with that so yeah it's it could have been better representation wise but uh it's a step in the right direction you know we talk about how few mainstream movies there are about queer people and you know hopefully this at least in some way helped

pave the way for more to be seen down the road and Because the more we see, the more it's normalized, and more representation is what we're always striving for. So I'm going to say four nipples, and I will give two to Cate Blanchett. I will give two to Rooney Marr's performance in another movie. Yes! Yes! All right. Yep! Yes! Alright.

Yep. Great. Wow. That hurts. I do truly like her. No, it is. Nicole's joyfulness. I still, oh God.

I'm so on the fence about so many elements. I'm also going to go with four for many of the same reasons. I mean, it's just, it is, uh, in spite of sort of the, the stuff that we've unpacked as being either like a little off or just straight up confusing. It is, I think, you know, it's generally great that this movie exists, especially, and this is like something we didn't, we don't really talk about a lot, but the fan base of this movie has grown so much since it's been available on Netflix. And there was like a long piece reported in them a couple of months ago about the huge young fan base

that Carol has built since being on Netflix. And just not only is like representation important, but like accessibility to movies like this are so important because this is an art house movie and you know mostly the majority of people at this table did not see it uh in in small you know movie theaters in 2015 so the fact that it's available to young people and to i mean to everyone um if you have you know your ex ex's Netflix password is a really cool thing. And so in spite of its shortcomings, I'm glad that it exists and that it's accessible and that it, for the most part, you know, was adapted responsibly and by the right people. Yes.

So I'll go four as well. I'll give two to Kate Blanchanchett i'm gonna give my other two to abby yeah oh yeah that's a great call yeah i would say four as well i mean my my issues with rooney mara no i'm gonna say three i can't even get through her name and dropped it full because i started thinking about it more and i was was like, I can't, I can't. Yeah, I mean, two definitely to Cate Blanchett, always. Maybe all three. No, but one to Abby.

And I agree with everything that you guys have said. I don't even have much more to add. just simply wish that Rooney Mara's character had been more than a blank slate who is imprinted upon by the one person that she's attracted to so that's all yes I I love this movie I am not awesome at separate I'm not the best at being objective when I really love something and I recognize that about myself I feel like going into this I maybe would have said four and a half but I after hearing all this I am gonna say four I barely had an issue with with Rooney Mara's character maybe reading it in terms of like coming into contact with so many women who are first coming out I was looking at it through that kind of a lens and being like oh I bet if we saw this character a year from now like she would be more filled in. But again, yeah, it's true that that is,

that's my brain screenwriting and directing and stuff. And I respect that. But I love this movie. And I do think it's super hot and I will not apologize for that. I will give my nipples, I will give one to Cate Blanchett, one to Rooney Mara.

And then even though she's not in this movie, I'm giving two to Rachel Weisz because she is my girlfriend and I love her just because her presence is looming over every lesbian movie at this moment she came up during our conversation and I would like to throw her some nipples

we'll have to get the both of you back on to do the favorites I will die to do that I love that movie I love love love love love that movie just really quick i think you know i know that we have all had different takes on mr football in this movie consider alfred molina in that part alfred molina playing kate blanchett's husband i'm horny although maybe they just needed them to not have as much chemistry and so that's why

Alfred Molina couldn't do it. That's probably what it is. Chemistry's off the chart with everyone. Sure. How many nipples does 300 snails have? Oh, gosh.

Ooh, let me look. Okay, do snails. I was about to say, I feel like zero because there were no nipples besides hers ever in that apartment. Like, it feels like

with 300 snails. Yeah, no, snails do not have nipples. No. in that apartment like it feels like with 300 snails like yeah snails have do not have nipples no i can tell you that how do you get a girl back to your apartment the key is in the door you're like oh one one thing before i should tell you the google results for do snails have nipples are wild i don't recommend them it's all just like hentai well thank you so much for coming on that note um where where can we find you online plug away i am at nicole pacent on twitter and instagram i am at lauren flans on twitter um that's the best lauren underscore flans on instagram but I'm not on Instagram that much Lauren's a Twitter

Twitter person I'm a Twitter person and our podcast is at Coming Out Pod on Twitter and Instagram yay

give it a listen wherever you find podcasts yay thank you guys so much for having us on this was awesome of course

this was so much fun thank you for being here you can follow us on the social media platforms at Bechtel cast we've got our matreon aka patreon five bucks a month two bonus episodes can't go wrong uh so and and this month on the patreon we're doing uh knocked up It's pregnancy June on the matron.

Inspiring. So you can check us out there. We have our merch store at tpublic.com slash the Bechdel cast. We're getting some new designs in there soon, but you can get your feminism is the law now shirt. Also for pride, a queer icon, non-binary icon there. We've got, we've got them all, check out the store and we'll talk to you soon

how do you end the podcast? I don't know, see you later bye football was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country

into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. in Latinx communities. This podcast is an intergenerational conversation between Latinas from Gen X to Gen Z. We're your hosts, Viosa and Mala. You might recognize us from our first show, Locatora Radio. Listen to Señora Sex Ed on the iHeart Radio app,

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