The Bechdel Cast - Center Stage with Akilah Hughes

Episode Date: February 20, 2020

Jamie and Caitlin are dancing their way to a discussion about Center Stage with special guest Akilah Hughes!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @AkilahObviously on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project.

All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister? Or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller

from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, They're just dreams. silence around sex and sexuality in Latinx communities. This podcast is an intergenerational conversation between Latinas from Gen X to Gen Z. We're your hosts, Viosa and Mala. You might recognize us from our first show, Locatora Radio. Listen to Señora Sex Ed on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hi, welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. And we were trying to think of a dancey way to introduce this episode if we couldn't think of any.

Yeah, it probably has something to do with dance being more of a visual medium. Yeah, you necked me off Mike as well. Wait, I'm still stuck on cats, so I was like, well, I wanted to do like a little Skimbleshanks shuffle, but this movie

doesn't have a dearth of tap. There's a parallel because there's a lot of ballet in both Cats and Center Stage that's what? ballet yes yes yes okay I was like hold on I thought you meant like actor overlap no no no no

just the art form yes the art form well it's a dance episode and you know next time we do a dance episode we'll cook on it in the meantime and figure it out. Well, we have got Black Swan coming up. I know. So there's really not much time. There's really not much time. But we're talking about center stage today. This is the Bechdelcast. This is our podcast where we talk about how women are portrayed in movies, usually not that good. Correct. Well, and we use the how dare you do bad grammar.

Well, you already yelled at me about dance being a visual medium. I'm so sorry. We use the Bechdel test as a jumping off point, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test, which is a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel. Oh, yes. Do you want to hear something fun? Yeah. Alison Bechdel-Wallace Test, which is a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel. Oh, yes. Do you want to hear something fun? Yeah. Alison Bechdel knows this show exists.

Wait, how do we? I didn't know that. I found out yesterday. I'll tell you off my, but I found out. She knows it exists. I don't think she's ever listened to it, but she's heard of it. Okay. She's heard of it, and that's a start.

That's a start. She doesn't hate it. She's not going to sue us. That was what I mean. I was like, is she going to be like, stop. Yeah, no cease and desist yet, so we're good. She's neutral. All good. She's neutral. All right.

She's neutral. Awesome. But what's the test? It requires that two female identifying characters with names speak to each other about something other than a man. For at least two lines, that's our bar. Yes. Oh, huh. Bar dance.

Dance bar. Swish. We did it. We did it. We got there. We're dancers. Yes. You are a dancer, huh. Bar dance. Dance bar. Swish. We did it. We did it. We got there. We're dancers. Yes. You are a dancer, Jamie.

I mean, you have been. I was for 15 years. And then I became a visual arts major. And that's my story. Wow. I'm basically, well, no, because Maureen was good. Never mind. Her mom cared and she was good. So I'm not Maureen was good never mind her mom like her mom cared and she was good so I'm not Maureen

I see I grew up playing soccer so I didn't have no dance yeah I'm Bend It Like Beckham if we have to be movies from the early aughts maybe a little more center stage you're a little more Bend It Like Beckham definitely yeah we have a guest as always she is

wonderful she's a writer comedian host of what a day podcast it's akilah hughes yeah what up y'all hi i thought i was gonna say dog and then i said y'all i'm like i'm surprised myself well we we can't yeah the word dog in this and this is a cat's podcast this is a cat's community honestly we i wish we were talking about cats i haven't seen it a film with no choruses no no real dancing no plot no assholes it's a lot of things no ass it's that that asshole once someone pointed out it out to me i couldn't unsee it oh right no cat butts no buttholes yeah because cats have like sorry gaping assholes yeah like they walk in the room backwards it's weird that we're not talking about it but i guess we're at least we're

talking about cats in general that's true that's true as long as we're our goal is to keep the conversation going around cats until it makes its budget back so we'll be talking about it for years yeah you all were saying uh what actor has a crossover in both i'm like yeah all the people who are in center stage went on to have better careers yeah and everyone who's in cats regrets it and is firing their agents currently i wonder if like the they approached the dad from the oc they're like do you want to be in cats he's like uh no i'm good i was the dad from the oc so yes i'd like to live on my eyebrow legacy and not this garbage fire. Thanks, though.

Wow. Anyway, thank you so much for being here. Yes, we're so excited. Thank you for having me. So you brought us Center Stage. What's your history, your relationship with this movie? Honestly, we never rented it. My family was never a renting family.

So I watched it probably a couple years after it came out on like basic cable. It came on every day. And I really loved it. It was a movie that I think I watched by myself. I was the youngest of four. And I'm like, there's not a lot of memories of watching movies alone. Yeah. And I was like, this was really formative for me.

I just thought dancing was so cool and moving to New York to dance would be so cool. So I made my mom enroll me in ballet classes. After seeing this movie? Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's so cool. Media is influential. I know, right? We've said it before, we'll say it again. Exactly. I was like, look, there's a black person in this and she's a total bitch. I identify. Let me be a dancer. And yeah, my ballet teacher quit like after like three weeks because she said I didn't know how to tuck my popo in, which is her word for ass. So I think it was just how I was shaped. But it was really disappointing at the Salvation Army that afternoon when I was like, where is my teacher?

Did you continue to study dance? Study is a loaded word. Did a lot of work um I so I auditioned for the dance team in high school and like didn't break my ankle but very nearly broke my ankle so then I went on to audition in crutches like while practicing I I felt like Eric Jones does in the movie yeah gotta tell you it was far more embarrassing because I was also in puberty among hot peers.

So yeah, it was probably the end of dancing. I mean, I did musicals in college and stuff, but you know, step off change. Not a lot of leaping. Sure. I had never seen this movie before. Wow.

Prepping for the episode. Thank you so much. And I will admit, and this is embarrassing, but I thought that this movie and Save the Last Dance were the same movie. I just had no idea. Like, I kind of knew both. I definitely have seen Save the Last Dance,

but I was like, oh, yeah, I've seen Center Stage. And I was like, wait a minute. I haven't seen this because this is a different movie from Save the Last Dance. There were a lot of dance movies back then. And they all revolved around, like, white dancers trying to be a little different. Yes. Yes. And I think Save the Last Dance came out, like, the year after this.

Right. They came out so soon. There's a run of dance movies. Right. So I was confused. And definitely was a bigger hit, Save the Last Dance. Yeah. Well, who were we to?

We had a recent guest who was like, oh, yeah, that movie is just about how like interracial teenage kissing. Yeah. Lacey. And at the time they're like. Yeah. What? Huh?

Yeah. Yeah. It was Lacey Mosley. Lacey. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Kerry Washington's debut as the only line is like, yes, stealing black men. And I'm like, that doesn't seem like a thing a teenage girl would say. But all right. So yeah, I'm very new to this movie. Jamie, what about you? I had seen this movie at sleepovers, I think. I was very, very into dance as a kid.

That was my thing when I was little. I got a scholarship to go to dance school. I was very excited and passionate about it. I did that thing when I did it all the way through high school. I did all this stuff. I didn't get my first audition in college. I'm like, well, I quit.

Then just never did it again. Good for her. A real role model. Yeah. Like, hey, the first sign of resistance, just quit. You'll probably turn out fine. Maybe I don't love this. Yeah.

I was like, I don't know. I really like dance. I like dance movies. This was, I think, probably a part of a double feature at my cousin Chloe's house. But yeah, I really like this movie. I hadn't seen it in years and years and years. When I was little, I didn't recognize anyone in it.

But now you're like, oh damn, this is Zoe Saldana's first movie. First feature, yeah. That's so cool. Should I do a recap and we'll go from there? Yeah. Wait. The tagline for this movie on the poster is, life doesn't hold tryouts. Oh. Something to think about.

Something to think about. Really? Some food for thought. Something to think about. Okay. I'm sure it means something. Right. I'm trying to figure out what.

And yeah, it's just like a bunch of dumbasses sitting in a circle in a marketing office like ballet. Ballet. Tryouts. Life. Tryouts. Life is tryouts. Life is not tryouts. Perfect.

Print it. All right. So the story. A group of young ballet students. I think they're like 18. This is like they're going to this academy instead of like in lieu of going to like a university that's okay i think is i'm asking are we to believe they're all legal adults this that comes into play a few times where i'm like i sure hope so the actors are but i don't know right yeah i think they're like 18 having just graduated from high school i believe

um but they all get accepted into right they get accepted into a very competitive, prestigious ballet school in New York City. Ever heard of it? And it's called ABA, the American Ballet Academy, which is fictitious for this movie. Among them are Jodie Sawyer, Eva Rodriguez, that's Zoe Saldana's character Maureen and everyone thinks Maureen aka the girl from the girl from 10 Things I Hate About You she was obsessed with Shakespeare

oh that's her yeah teen queen she was one of those she was in like three things and then where'd she go well the thing about Maureen

is that everyone thinks she's a bitch yeah but she's just dedicated. We can tell from her severe bangs. You're like, okay, I get it. Her pale hair in contrast to her very dark, or her pale skin. I don't know what I'm talking about.

She just looks different than everybody else. She's given the look. Like she's the Darth Vader. And the three of them are roommates and then we also meet eric jones sergey and charlie and the three of them are roommates like downstairs in the boys dorm i guess my boyfriend and i were having so much fun making fun of sergey everything sergey did was funny he was like i was drunk i'm sorry i was like oh my god sergey was so weird I loved him I imagine he did a hundred reads

of every line and they all came out the exact same they're like we're gonna take it again he's like I was drunk alright

alright I guess we don't have another option because most of the I was I like had to check in the first couple

of minutes so the majority I think really except for Amanda Scholl, who plays Jodi, and Zoe Saldana, everyone is basically a semi-professional dancer or ice skater. And that's why everyone acts really weird. Yeah. I was drunk. Say it like you've ever been drunk before.

She's like, okay. I was drunk. Oh, I, okay. I was drunk. Oh, I loved it. Yes. So then the end game for these students is to get accepted into the American Ballet Company. And the director of the academy and the company also, I think, Jonathan Reeves, that's Peter Gallagher,

a.k.a. the dad from The O.C. He announces that he will take three women and three men at the end of the year and he will decide who gets it after this big workshop performance. Then we see them start to practice. Jodi's form is sloppy. She has to work on her turnout. I really dunk on her a lot in the first half of the movie. There was that one with OC Daddy where he's just like,

listen, you can stay, but you're horrible. And I'm also wondering who let her into the school room. This is the first time I've seen her dance. I could just enroll in this divide. There's this thing in her audition. Is this the audition someone's like her number 15 and then another person's like well she's got really bad feet and like her turnout sucks and the guy's like but look

at her and i guess it's like okay so there's this special thing about her and it's that she's hot finally a hot ballerina right i was just like she's and and there were there was another blonde ballerina that i kept oh yes same i was like oh that oh no that's no who's the protagonist yeah definitely same here but yeah she's special yeah um so she's she's sloppy she's got work to. And then there's Eva, who is really skilled, but she doesn't like to follow the rules. She smokes indoors. She chews bubble gum. She doesn't like the dress code, stuff like that. Yeah.

And then Maureen. She kind of reminded me of the Mila Kunis character in Black Swan. Oh, sure. But not like the other ballerinas. Uh-huh. Yeah. I'm different. All my outfits are black.

Exactly. You're like, got it, got it. And we can't smoke while we're dancing? Dumb. It's a personality in Hollywood. I love it. So then, and then Maureen, she's like the teacher's pet who has like the best technique in the school.

And there's also Cooper Nielsen. He is a dancer in the company who is, I guess, also like on TV and famous. They say he's like on TV. I don't know. He's like the famous. Yeah. He's the face. Exactly.

And everyone's gossiping about him because he had been dating this woman, Kathleen Donahue, until they broke up and now she's married to Jonathan, the director. So there's all this drama there. Then there's this big gala at the school and maybe Cooper like flirts with Jodi IDK. And then there's also a cater waiter who flirts with maureen uh and then proceeds to stalk her yeah but they're in latin but right who know we'll talk about it yeah um and then jody uh she continues to work on her dancing but then this is when she meets with jonathan he's like you're bad at this and i'm not kicking you out but do you even belong here and then eva is like screw him let's go have some fun

and then they go salsa dancing and jody has a blast and she's like oh i like dancing that's not ballet at my school jody jody when she's at she's not a good salsa dancer i know the movie is supposed to frame it like wow she's really cutting loose so you're just like she seems so uncomfortable and she's doing a bad job but everyone else did good right everyone else did great including Sergei

who really cuts loose yeah there's a woman who he's dancing with who he has lied to and said that he's in the mafia he was strong

give me a break let's see then doing this other type of dance inspires Jodi to take a is this like Give me a break. Let's see. Then doing this other type of dance inspires Jodi to take a, is this like contemporary dance that she takes this class? Something like this, like jazzy, but like not really. Yeah, they're like, we're going to do this whole, I don't even remember the song now.

Was it Stevie Wonder or was it, like, for some reason my brain is playing Danger Zone. Oh my God, Can you imagine? Something in the same vein. It's like a higher ground, but then it was also another. Oh, they were dancing to a lot of Mandy Moore, early Mandy Moore. Oh, my God. Yeah, I love that.

I just got tingles. I love Mandy. And then they kissed to that Mandy song. I really love that. I want to be with you. Oh, I didn't even know that that was a Mandy Moore song. That's a good little Mandy. Wow, I'm like blushing.

She had some bops. She really did. Yep. Go, shout out to Mandy. Yeah, what up, girl? So she takes this contemporary dance class, which Cooper Nielsen is also in. And then she's like really good at this type of dance. And he invites her back to his place they start kissing they have sex and then later charlie asks jody out on a date but she's like

i'm seeing someone charlie is i think maybe one one of the other really bad dancer actors because i kept forgetting who he was through the end every time he up, he's like, hey, I'm like, who's this new character? And then he would always have to repeat who he was in the scene. So I think the director maybe also knew that he was done. He's like, Charlie from Seattle. You're like, oh. Right. Right.

Yeah. He's a good dancer, but perhaps not a great actor. Amazing dancer. He's in the wide shots. Yes. He's in the wide shots yes in the dance he's in the wide they don't need a body double we can't take that away from yes um and this is also when maureen starts dating jim the pre-med columbia student the waiter that she met at the gala i kept calling him mr gabagool thatoul. He's like, you gotta have some pizza. And then she's like, what?

Well, and then we also learn around this time that she has an eating disorder. Yes. Then the casting notice comes out for the workshop performance. And Jodi has been cast in the ballet that Cooper is choreographing. But he's kind of like blowing her off. She's trying to be like, hey, we're dating, right? And he's like, no, we're not. And then it seems like maybe he and Kathleen are involved again

or like maybe he's just trying to make Kathleen jealous by having sex with Jodi. Not totally sure. Kathleen really couldn't give a shit either way about what Cooper does, which I appreciate she remains pretty consistent on she's just like cool

like he just keeps reaffirming the fact that she was right to not stay with him because he's like yeah I'm dating an 18 year old now and she's like

awesome yeah like I'm a great woman yeah you win yeah I'm on my phone but it's because

I'm trying to see if no okay I was confusing the person who plays Maureen for the I think it's because I'm trying to see if no okay I was confusing the person who plays Maureen for I think it's Lili Sobieski who's in Never Been Kissed it's always the same sidekick character it's like a nerd

what happened to Lili she's out of this we all took a deep breath because we're worried she's dead good news she's alive and she's dead. Good news, she's alive. Hallelujah. And she's into art now. Okay.

Yay. I could have expected that. You would guess. Gun to my head. Bet she's painting. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, so everyone starts working on their workshop show. And Charlie senses that Jodi and Cooper are involved and then there's this big

like ballet dick measuring contest between Charlie and Cooper where they're like what if we end the thing this way he's like well what if I change I did it differently what if we do that okay well try this thing he's like well let's see what look at what I can do and he's like look at what I can do and then we're like yeah yeah, we're like, cool. Why is this scene five minutes long? They just jump it around in the dance. No one who's watching knows what's better. I have no opinion.

I'm nine. Both look impressive to me. All looks good to me. Maybe do all of that. And then there's like a lot of buzz around Cooper's ballet. And then Eric gets injured. So Cooper steps in to his own choreographed ballet to take Eric's part. Cooper's so annoying.

Watching him as an adult, because I know when I was little, I was like, ah. But like as an adult, you're like, oh, brother. Like he I'll do it you're like oh okay it's like your music teacher in elementary school is like do you want me to play the piano come do it we're like no just play the track you're 40 please don't yeah like this is our day actually we're graduating from sixth grade you don't have to play piano I'm loving a teacher who's like, this is actually about me. Okay, so the ballet that he's choreographed is extremely self-indulgent. And it's about how stupid ABA is and how he doesn't like that his girlfriend got stolen away. I was like, oh, this is basically marriage story, the ballet. But then when you see the ballet, it exceeds the excess you're expecting by a bajillion percent.

Where it's like, that dance is like 12 minutes long. There's like four set pieces. Her hair changes. A motorcycle. A motorcycle. Oh my god, the motorcycle. I forgot about it. Her hairstyle drastically changes like four different times.

She's wearing lingerie. Throughout the same show there's several costume changes on stage on stage somehow there's time to braid her hair for the final act

she relaces her shoes in the final act like there's a 30 second delay when did she do that my favorite part is like when the like you're like is this good

and then they keep cutting to the audience you're like okay is this good? And then they keep cutting to the audience. You're like, okay, this is good. This is good. They're all happy with the money they spent on this evening. But before Cooper's show, we have Jonathan's ballet. And instead of Maureen in the lead, it's Eva because Maureen gave her part to her. And then Maureen's mom is all like, what the fuck? And Maureen is like.

She's got the stagiest stage mom of all time for sure and Maureen is just like I don't even want to be a ballet dancer that's your dream not mine I love this plop anytime someone says that to their parent in a movie I'm like it's it's become always cathartic I can't relate with it but you're just yeah I'm like wow your parents had dreams for you yeah i was like honestly it seems like they put a lot of time and effort in so i was like yeah my mom didn't have a plan she was like well as long as you're like not you know homeless in like five years i'm like yeah tight right so like the parenting approach is like let's see how this goes yeah like as long as you're paying bills like like, all right. Whatever I want to do to it. So now it's time for Jonathan's big decision of like who he's going to accept into the company.

But then Cooper is like, I'm starting my own dance company because this rich woman is funding it. I'm sure he had sex with. Yeah, that is the vibe because she comes in. It kind of reminds me of the like max bialystock's old ladies in the producers oh where you're like oh this is this is an arrangement that they have everyone's happy with it yeah but it's an arrangement yeah um so he's starting his own dance company and he's like jody you gotta be in it. And then she's like, hey, Jonathan, I'm going off with Cooper. And he's like, shrug, I don't care.

And then he's like, I wasn't going to invite you into my thing anyway. But he does invite Eva, Eric, and Charlie to be in the company. And then the movie ends with Jodi asking Charlie out on a date. And then they kiss. And we're like, who's Charlie? Oh, yeah. Charlie from Seattle. And that's the end of the movie.

So let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project.

All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not.

What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people.

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I felt in control of my own physical body and my own self. I was on birth control. I had sort of had my first sexual experience. If you're in your señora era or know someone who is, then this is the show for you. We're your hosts, Diosa and Mala,

and you might recognize us from our flagship podcast, Locatora Radio. We're so excited for you to hear our brand new podcast, Señora Sex Ed. Listen to Señora Sex Ed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Here we are. Skimbles, the railway cat um okay you know it's like not a good musical when they have to like introduce exactly who they are like you can't deduce their importance

by anything about it okay we know this one's been standing in the background for 77 minutes. And this is an actor with a name, I think. Maybe he'll say who it is. I mean, another thing that this movie shares is wooden acting from dancers. Oh, yeah. Sure. Yes.

Weren't all the real dancers and cats made to be roaches and shit? A lot of them probably are. Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. It's like, oh, we can't talk about cats again talking about center stage okay um let's see this movie uh it came out in 2000 yes um so i was like oh this movie's 20 years old it's gonna be way more problematic than it was there are some issues but i was like oh this is actually kind of like, it tries to do some stuff. For 2000,

I think it does better than I expected. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Correct. Definitely like a wink towards progress. Yeah. Yeah. A glimmer of progress showing in the distance. And I think it has at least part to do with the writer being a woman. Yes. Caroline

Heikkinen. It looks like heineken but that's her name is not carol heineken it's carol heikkinen and she also wrote empire records which is a movie i've maybe seen i haven't seen i don't know there's a new show version coming out with zoe kravitz playing the male lead yes wait that great. And it's getting good reviews, apparently. It's almost the exact same text. So there's like no update. Just now it's Zoe Kravitz. We love that for her. Nice.

I'm just always happy for Zoe Kravitz. Wow, a lot of Zoe energy. Carol loves working with Zoes. She's obsessed. And then also the director is a queer man Nicholas Heitner so the fact that you have women and queer people in like the major creative roles in this movie I think is

at least part of why it's maybe not as it avoids some of like the more obvious tropey stereotypes stuff like that and Nicholas Heitner is also like a legend theater producer so you're like oh he actually understands the world that he's portraying. Because sometimes I feel like it comes off a little uncanny valley.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's maybe too much authenticity in this movie because they cast so many dancers. Yeah. And they dance magnificently. That's true. And we see a lot of them dancing. We see.

Yes. The wide shots. I was like, oh, that's why they're so bad at acting. That's true. And we see a lot of them dancing. We see, yes, the wide shots, I was like, oh, that's why they're so bad at acting. Oh, yeah. I imagine it's like the same people who are in that dance class where they're dancing to, I want to say, Higher Ground. Yes. Where they're like leaping forever.

Like they all get their one moment of like, yeah, like this is, you know that all of these dancers now, every holiday, the family gets together and they're like, pull on that scene. Remember when you leapt across the screen to higher ground put it on again don't do it and this movie when it came out i think like many teen movies in general but especially teen movies back when movie reviewers really really, really were all old white guys. There was like no – so it didn't get reviewed particularly well. Right. Because movies for – I feel like just in general movies targeted at girls are never super well reviewed, especially before there was any manner of diversity in who was reviewing them.

So this got 42% on the tomato meter, but audience score, 82%, baby. We love Center Stage. We love her. We love her. She did so much for my life. She got you enrolled. Yeah.

Honestly. My God. Should we start with Jodi? Sure. We'll start with Jodi. Yeah. We'll start with Jodi. Jodi, man, I mean,

her story was going in some cool ways at certain times, and then it kind of lost me in the middle. What I thought was going to happen, because she's kind of, like, she's struggling in this ballet school. She's getting kind of dumped on by OC Daddy. And you're like, okay. And then she finds this, the higher ground class, and she seems to be thriving there and like oh maybe her storyline would be that she will get into a different form of dance that's what i thought too and i was like oh that's kind of cool or that she'll like bring what she learns in these like contemporary dance classes into her ballet and then people will be like oh wow she is really

talented like yeah i thought it was going in somewhere in that direction i was kind of hoping it could go there. And then they're just like, no, it's a love triangle. Sorry, remember Charlie? We're like, no. And they're like, well, he's here. Still no. Who the fuck is that?

Who is Charlie? And then what you take away from that class, I was kind of bummed that what you took away from her liking that class was that she's going to hook up with Cooper now instead of she's going to use this style of dance. And then she ends up working for him at the end. You're like, and dating Charlie? Right.

Because what happens is like they have sex. And so she's like, oh, we're dating now. But he's blowing her off. Although she just like shows up to his thing. She's like showing up places where she wasn't invited. So I'm like, okay, that's weird. But he's being rude to her and she's young. But he seems like he's being mean.

But also it's like, you're just showing up. That's not okay. But then he's really mean to her when they're working on his ballet. And she's like, well, what about how I feel? And it's basically mapping their relationship onto like what's happening like in the dance part of things but she's like well what about what i want he's like i don't give a what you want stupid idiot that was very jarring i was like wow he says mean stuff like like real mean stuff like yeah and then we're still like oh

she works for him i'm like he will do that again And then we're still like, oh, she works for him. I'm like, he will do that again. Because then he so she like rushes outside and then Charlie like runs after her. And he's like, he should be treating you better. And you're like, yes, but like, who are you? How would you know? I've never met you. Like we met.

I'm Charlie from Seattle. So yeah, like he's then set up as like a viable romantic interest for her. And then it's the two of them, both Charlie and Cooper in the big like performance at the end. And there's this whole weird thing also where like they're playing like tug of war with her at one point like i think charlie literally throws her through the air and then cooper catches her so it's this whole like she's being treated as an object a possession where it's like and doesn't really object to it my property yeah and yeah like we're not led to believe that she has an issue with it. And like we mostly see, I was kind of bummed out. I mean, for a number of reasons, but like her and Eva get along really well. But their friendship is kind of just reduced to talking about Jodi's romantic problems specifically.

Like there's a few, like with their, I mean, and we'll talk about Eva at length. But as far as their friendship goes, Eva's basically there just to be like, what's your boy problem? And like, listen. They talk about dance a little bit, but it's like, it's yeah. There's way more. Which sucks for both of those characters. There's way more of a romantic through line than I thought there needed to be, especially because like at the very end. So she performs very well in the workshop

and people are like, wow, what a star. And then Cooper's like, he owes her an apology, but he does not deliver on that. He's just like, here, be in my thing. And then he tries to kiss her and she's like, no, you suck as a boyfriend. I'm going to ask out Charlie on a date. And then they kiss.

He's like, who? Yeah, it's see you on Monday, boss. it's like you weird why because like you know movies have to end with a hetero kiss so it's like the she and Charlie kiss but it's like why like why couldn't it have been more about the dance more about her skills and like her coming into her own as a as a performer and a dancer I have a controversial opinion oh please i think the movie's too much about the dance no one has a life or like hobbies outside of dancing like the thing she wants to do to cut loose from dance problems is go to a dance class the one suggestion for her to get over a dude is like hey we're all dancers why don't we go dance that's a good point do you guys ever do anything else has anyone here ever like read a

book all right and then when they go to the bar they're just like oh there's salsa let's yeah like let's put these drinks down and then sarah gay is like i will drink all of them like there's just no one has an interior life and so the only interior life they gave anyone was jody and i guess also maureen with her mother right it's all just like i feel like maureen got the most story out of anybody because i was like jody like you start to learn about her and then she's reduced to boys and then and then also jody's parents show up at the end and you're like hey now who are these adults and they also are acting like they don't know her they're like her mom was like great job i was like

do you get along have you met your daddy yeah um so they try like i mean maureen i feel like got the most because like we saw her family life and her romantic life which is like more than but it is all related to dancers and dancing to The part where she meets a guy who eats pizza and she's like, This can't happen. What is this? Yeah. I mean, it's a very focused movie, I suppose. It is definitely very focused.

No, I agree. I didn't even thought about all they do. Rewatching it, I was like, yeah, but they live in New York. This is all they do. They go to one club and one dance class and then all day dance and then yell about

this guy that is the dance teacher like even the men that are with her dancers it's all right they're obsessed

also like for a movie that is like so many ballet dancers I felt like there was I mean was there any like LGBTQ representation at all we've got

are we supposed to assume that Sergei is gay? No, Sergei has a girlfriend, Galena. But Eric O. Jones is I think he's identifiably queer because he's like Charlie, who I guess is supposed to be attractive. The dig of a lifetime, I guess. He comes in and and Eric is like, ooh, who's that? You're cute.

And then he's like, oh, my girlfriend dumped me. And then Eric is visibly disappointed. He very pointedly says, my girlfriend in Seattle. And we're like, who? But yeah, I think that he was clearly stated as a queer character,

which kind of bums me out even further of how that character is slowly just like edged out of the movie to the point where they're like, let's just break his leg. He's not leaving screen fast enough. Let's injure him. It's too much. Yeah, like, it reminded me of that, like, thing where, I think we talked about it in our Pacific Rim episode, where the female protagonist was, like, launched out of the climax to the movie. They just launched her out of the ship. They're like, we don't know what to do with this character. Bye. Yeah.

And then she's just bobbing. And, like, they kind of do the same thing to him because they're like, okay, we have to focus on this boring hetero love triangle that no one's invested in. Right. Let's break our only queer character's leg like their only one it's a ballet school right and and the fact that like you weren't totally sure if he was queer or not i think speaks to the fact that we see several different romantic subplots but eric has not afforded any of them he doesn't get to like you know fall in love with a man or anything like that but yeah well so like there are moments when some of the women like the

new batch of like boys come in and they're like oh are they gay or straight um so there's like there's discussion of it and then there's that scene later when uhi is at the, or Sergei, how do you say that? I was drunk. Sergei is at the salsa bar and he's hitting on a couple of women and they're like, oh, well, what are you doing here? He's like, I'm a ballet dancer. And they're like, teehee, what a weirdo. And then he goes to that other woman and he's like, I'm in the mafia. She's so horny for him.

She is in love with him. She's reckless. The same with like, the older female characters in this movie are horny, horny, horny, horny, horny. Because there's the woman at the salsa club.

There's also the like, contemporary, whatever Stevie Wonder dance teacher who like, wants to have sex with, it seems like they've already sealed the deal.

The vibe is she's like, Cooper, you're so fun. And you're just like, oh my God. And then there's the millionaire woman. There's the millionaire woman who has sex with Cooper also. All the older women in this movie have... Better sex lives than me.

Yeah. They've fucked these young male ballerinas and and good for them yeah and good for them it was just a strange thing to happen four times in them but i liked it i liked it go carol right the point is that there's not nearly as much like queer visibility or representation as you might imagine but that also could just be for the time i mean this is 2000 this is the kind of thing where like i wonder what the first draft versus the final draft of this script looks like because yeah like for it to be an accurate representation you would think that there would be way more queer representation and like more explicit and then

i wonder how much they just 2000 did right They used the whole budget on that one diversity point. They're like, sorry, man, we couldn't do that many. Especially because since the director is queer, I don't know. This is kind of speculation, but I imagine he would have tried to champion for like responsible queer visibility. Or wouldn't have pushed against it.. Or wouldn't have pushed against it. Right, wouldn't have pushed against it. But yeah, because it's, yeah, it's 2000 and we just weren't in the same place.

Hot take from Caitlin. Let's read, wait, hold on. 2000 different from 2020? What? Let's take a quick break. Another quick break and we'll come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate.

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We're so excited for you to hear our brand new podcast, Señora Sex Ed. Listen to Señora Sex Ed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Let's talk about Zoe Saldana and her debut role, besides an episode of Law & Order. Yeah. I tried to find the clip from it, but no luck. Oh, darn it.

So Zoe Saldana's character. I feel like there's good things and there's things that are very 2000. Right. In general, I feel like, I mean, I like her character a lot. I remember, like, really loving her character when I was a kid, too. She's, like, the cool ballerina. Yeah, she's, like, the fun one where you're, like, oh, if I don't have an entry point for dance, like,

I can relate to being the person who's, like, I don't give a shit. Right, right. Like, yeah, there was no point where she felt like she was squandering her opportunity, where everyone else was, like was so worried about it. She's like, whatever, I'm going to smoke and blow it into your face. Right.

And I like how I was kind of worried in the middle. I'm like, oh, I wonder how her storyline is going to end because I kind of forgot. I remember that she dances at the end, but I was like, I wonder. I like that the through line with her character is she is the character who's really just like straight up passionate about what she's doing and doesn't like play the game in the way Maureen does. She doesn't do the politics of LA. She just likes it and is good at it and works at it. And then she ends up being like rewarded for that. She's not punished for like being outspoken.

And she ends up like getting what she wants because she works really hard and she's passionate about it and she's good at it so I mean she also got what she wanted because Maureen was like I'm gonna die like he was never gonna give it to her so I'm like that maybe there's like an allegory here about like white women like having to open doors black women I kind of know yeah there's definitely a component of that. She was going to start her own dance company otherwise. And it's like we can't even give Maureen too many points because she just waited until she was on her deathbed to be like, fine. But it is good.

I'm glad she did it. I thought that Maureen was going to get hurt. I didn't know that they were going to let her character make a choice yeah right so that's a really good point

just making things happen I was glad that like Eva ended up getting the company too because there was that in that last second I'm like oh this movie could really go either way

on a lot of things they broke our only queer character's leg let's see what happens and then she gets it you're like oh oh, thank God. Tell me how you feel about this. Did you feel that Eva was kind of written using some, like, negative black stereotypes in terms of, like, the angry black woman?

Yeah. She's often late. Yeah, exactly. She's, like, the least professional person on Earth. The last dance. She's wearing combat boots, basically. She's like the least professional person on earth. The last dance she's in combat boots. I mean, I think, you know, what's interesting in rewatching it and like also realizing her name was like Eva Rodriguez. I thought that they like really tried to mash up like she's black and Hispanic. But like I felt more kind of alarmed by like

the rage is being like a hot headedheaded Latina because that's sort of her entry point with salsa and whatever else. It just felt like maybe there was... I'm giving a lot of benefit of the doubt right now. Maybe they were in ways trying to make a commentary like, this is a Latina. You've never seen them. Darker than

a paper bag. But also a walking stereotype. I think it is interesting that like you, it's like an Afro Latina character and Zoe Saldana is also Dominican and Puerto Rican. I also looked at the Wikipedia page. I did not look anything else. So thank you for being my research partner. I would say either way. It felt to me as though some negative stereotypes were being drawn on from

both like black communities and latinx communities yeah for that character but and it felt like for a large portion of the movie by like the ballet powers that be she was being treated like a diversity pick like yeah like this affirmative action person like you don't deserve to be here. I'm like Jodi's feet. Don't worry. Don't tell me that Eva can't be here. So that is like, yeah, I think that like what it does seem more like. I mean, look, we saw the movie. So watching it, it was like there are moments that are stereotypical as a child. I don't know that I like bought into it or like realized I was just like she's the fun one but it does seem like maybe the directors and writers were like okay well if we have to like give her an edge because like if she's just like a

silent black person that everyone hated it would be a different movie right so they're like let's just give her this personality so that she's difficult in the event that like people think that this is like some liberal talking point, which was not a thing that existed. Yeah, do we have liberal talking points? Yeah, these snowflakes talking about ballet establishment. But yeah, I think that like at least they seem like even in hindsight aware of the fact that like, OK, she is up against a lot. So even with her weird writing about her personality quirks like we at least back it up with by saying like well she's a good dancer and and she deserves to be

there so yeah being the black one isn't the only reason why she's having problems right right i i wish i almost wish that like if they were gonna give her those like stereotypical kind of stock personality traits i feel like they sort of skim the surface of trying to explore them. But then she's just not given as much screen time as she needs to be given to have that explored. Because you get that like one scene that I'm like, oh, this is something. Where the dance teacher who's not OC Daddy. Mean lady. Yeah, mean lady.

Mean lady who's been mean to Eva a bunch of different times finds her rehearsing late at night and I think like realizes like oh she really is passionate about this and then like offers her like oh can I help you and you're like okay this what and then it just kind of is dropped there and you don't really get to see

like where you're like, OK, good. The teacher should believe in her student the whole time. She's two thirds in. I don't know. Like I wish that there was a little more or that we like learned anything about her outside of her relationship with the school, which is something we come up with movies in this era, especially all the time where it's like one of the only non-white characters that we see there's just a total absence of any background information like i always think of the craft yes like craft um as who's who's the actor in the craft i can't what is the craft oh my god that episode's from a long time ago yeah um is it rachel true i couldn't confirm nor deny okay i don't know um either either way

like it certainly could have been let's not rule her out she can be in the craft yeah by my me uh but but yeah we don't really get to find out anything about her which sucks and is kind of like a wasted opportunity the other big thing about uh her character is that she hates maureen there's like some woman on woman hatred for what feels like kind of no reason she's just like i heard maureen's a bitch and she told me i can't smoke in my dorm room so fuck her i interpreted that as kind of like a coded class thing where maureen is very much like a little nepotism braddy kind of girl and then eva is kind of coded as like someone who doesn't come from a ton of money and doesn't have this like overbearing parent constantly like i just don't remember

thinking about it as a kid too of just like oh like rich girl not rich girl and I feel like people in general but especially women are like pitted against each other in that regard a bunch and then Jodi is like who knows what's going on with her she's friends with everybody but she don't have feet

amazing because like you know the Bechdel test is about conversation so like you know but it's like why does no one have like the real conversation it's all passive-aggressive like you also can't smoke and she's just like I don't like her instead of like I need to smoke indoors like why are you not defending it you can't be like she's a bitch if you know what's wrong which is such a weird scene I that's one of the only times I could relate with Jodi because I'm like if I was a teenager someone was smoking inside and someone else was like, you can't smoke inside. I'm like, I would say nothing.

I would just be like, let's see where this goes. I'm like, I mean, what's wrong with smoking outside? I'm not saying she's right. I'm just saying, try it, you know, for once. I liked that Eva chose that hill to die on right away. She's like, oh, I can't smoke in the dorms? Fine. What kind of school is this?

Like any other school. And then the camera rests on Maureen as if we're supposed to be like, how unreasonable. Yeah, what a bitch. Breathe the secondhand smoke. Jeez. But yeah, that's set up between the two of them of just being this like antagonist.

Well, it's more that Eva hates Maureen. Maureen's just like kind of there. And she mostly actually seems to be kind of nice. Maybe she likes the rules a bit too much, but like whatever. But what I like, what I do appreciate about this storyline is the resolution is that Maureen lifts up Eva by being like, hey, I'm too sick to perform and I don't like to dance. I want to hang out with my

pizza boyfriend. He's almost done at his catering shift and I'm excited because he's going to bring home some leftovers. Yeah, Isaac was the whole time he was like, this is me. This is me. I was like was like oh you're not pizza boyfriend he's like I'm pizza boyfriend

and then there's also like plenty of female friendship in the story as well so it's not as though like there's only one like female relationship and it's antagonistic there's plenty of other but still I think that there are a lot of missed opportunities in this movie for like the only two times we really see like female characters like helping or like really showing friendship or kindness to another uh is when maureen drops out and gives the

opportunity to eva who deserves it and then also kind of with eva and the dance teacher but for a lot of moments where you're like oh this would be a really great opportunity for the like female dancers or really just the dancers to support each other. It just becomes a Jodi love thing where there's like two different boyfriends. Pete's a boyfriend, quote unquote, rescues Maureen and helps her see the light of the fact that she doesn't love dance. Like she doesn't really get to take the credit of figuring that out on her own it's pizza boyfriend yeah it comes out of nowhere yeah like the first person who offered her food she was like oh my god I'm done with this she's like wait a second you're like that is not oh god I wish it were that easy uh yeah sort of to that point though I think that what something that stood out to me in re-watching

it is all of the nice things that characters do to show friendship or like, you know, compassion or giving something up ends up being self-serving in some way. Like Maureen doesn't want to dance. It's not like she's doing this and she's like, well, I threw away my opportunity and now I have to regret it. She's like, this is good for me. That's true. Like it's good for you, but it's better for me. I felt the same way about, I mean, this is Cooper, being like, you can come dance with me. And I'm like, well, that's because now everybody knows who she is and likes her.

If this had gone another way, if Zoe Saldana went out there and crushed it, and then she went out there and fell down in her weird red outfit when they did the long conga line dance. The tug of war. Yes. He would have been like, yeah, maybe I'm going to go back to working for Sandy Cohen.

Good luck with your bad feet. We're not fucking anymore. Sandy Cohen. And it's especially sinister with if Maureen didn't want to quit dance, she would have never been like, hey, Zoe Saldana, let me lift you up and give you an opportunity like that

yeah that just wouldn't have happened yeah it's not within her character i mean none of the characters seem to like actually want to do good things unless they're like it's actually a scapegoated excuse for me to stop right i hate my life you take my life now and they're like thank you cool i actually wanted your life this works out great for me as well now i don't like smoking dwarfs they're just like freaky friday with each other uh yeah that's a good point i i like and there were those opportunities were there for them to and i'm sure it would have like helped the storyline too to like have the characters interacting more right um but i think sometimes they kind of just like and i wonder how much how much is, like, I want to give Carol the benefit of the doubt and be like, maybe it was studio nuts where they're like, ah, just add in some love story here.

That would fit better than building out friendships. Right. Or, like, moments that we could include Eric in the plot at all. I liked that also with Eric's character, because, like, he was also one of the only dancers whose performance was palatable. He could act. Well, because he's an actor and not a dancer. Oh, is he not? He had no previous dance training.

I saw that he later toured in the high school musical touring company. And I was like, well, that's just a boon. That's great. He probably trained in ballet prior to this role, but before getting cast, I don't think he had really any dance experience. Then why did we get so much Sergey? The studio was like, this guy's on fire. Every line could be on a t-shirt.

I'm in the mafia. I'm drunk. I was drunk. He says, if anyone wants to go back and watch the scene where he says, I was drunk, it's when they're punished by having to squeegee. And the punishment is because they missed curfew?

Is that what it is? Like there's a curfew at the dance school? They showed up. That's right, they were all laughing and they were like, last night was crazy because we was dancing so long. Now I can't dance today. Sergey was the only one who was actually drunk everyone else was just dancing

they had those dance hangovers and then like they're all they're like having fun they're like throwing all the sponges at each other and then like Maureen like peeks into the room and she's like oh that must be what having friends is like because everyone hates her because they think she's a bitch. Better beep my pizza boyfriend.

She's a narc. She's got to stay outside. Can we talk about Maureen? Yes. So many things. Maureen, there's a lot going on with her set. Again, it's like every character in this movie, you're like, I like some things

and then other things, they kind of lose the thread. To me, the big conversation here is the examination of eating disorders. So it all kind of starts out by Maureen fat shaming her friend, Emily, who is also rocketed out of the narrative. And that was frustrating because i think it's emily is the character's name yes she is uh written as the ballerina who eats like a normal person uh-huh yeah like every scene she's in they're like we want to remind you that she eats because she's eating right now and like that's different than everyone else who doesn't do that yeah and they like take great pains to point out that she's eating and that it bothers the other girls because to a normal viewer,

they'd be like, oh, she's out of function. Makes sense. But there's a few moments, especially when she's around Maureen, where Maureen's clearly borderline triggered by the sight of another dancer eating anything, which isn't abnormal for that world. But it's a little bit off. Yeah, that's the thing is, I mean, you both know more about dancing than me. Wow, I thank you. But I have heard on the streets that if you know, if you're participating in ballet on like a

serious level, there is an expectation that you're going to be thin that you have to participating in ballet on a serious level, there is an expectation that you're going to be thin, that you have to have a very rigid standard of beauty and body size and shape. Eating disorders are extremely prevalent. So I appreciate that this movie kind of attempted to tackle it, but I don't think it really went as far as it should have gone or did everything totally right. Because one example is when Emily has finally been kicked out for having gained too much weight. Someone's comments on her being fat and her mom says, you're not fat.

You're beautiful. Which is so 2000. It's the idea that you cannot be both, which is not true, you're beautiful. Which is so 2000. It's the idea that you cannot be both, which is not true as we know. It's trying and it's failing. It's also though, with Maureen's character, I think the juxtaposition for a young viewer of watching her be lifted up as the best of the best,

like this is who everyone wants to be, she's getting everything, and she is the sickest person in the film. I think that it like, like in spite of itself, is sending a different message. Like I remember watching it as a kid and being like, well, she's skinny and this guy likes her so much. He's buying her pizza.

Like I didn't have a concept. Like even when, you know, they do finally have the moment where she's coming out of the bathroom because she's making herself sick. You know, I don't even think I realized as a child that's what was happening. I just knew like maybe she has like a disease because she's like like her eyes are like blue underneath. She's very thin. But I didn't I didn't get that like that was her dedication.

And like that's in her mind, like that was the way to be, quote unquote, perfect. I just saw like she has everything, but she's not happy because she has to like she doesn't get friends I didn't think like because she doesn't take care of herself right and so it seems like yeah like as close as they got to getting it right there was always that moment of just like well can anyone like everyone who has power is rewarding this behavior right my like my thing with it was that I think that yeah like the movie should have been more explicit about like this not only is not a way to treat yourself but there are negative consequences and i would have loved to see her like at least it be alluded to the fact that she's going to get some sort of treatment for it yeah um like a doctor tell her that something's

wrong versus like her boyfriend and her just being like i've decided right he's like i'm not a doctor yet i'm in my first year of pre-med and you're like i'm a freshman in college he's like i bought those books it's a bummer yeah i i like i don't i don't know i've like i've i've had like eating disorder issues since i was like little and so i like i remember when i saw this movie i knew what she doing. And there is some element and it's like to the point where I'm like, I don't even know what the solution to this is. But there is some element of like trying to address a serious issue in a movie directed at young people and then accidentally showing young people. Here's something you can do. Because I like I remember that like I learned eating disorders from TV and then emulated them until like yesterday. Right. And then on top of that, it's and then I think that like I had similar like not things that I ever did.

But like I think the like concept of cutting was something I first saw on TV in a very well-intentioned episode of Degrassi. But I like I didn't know what that was before. And then after that, you're like, oh, here's a character that I like doing this very harmful thing. And the narrative is framing it as bad. But still, sometimes when you're really young, you're like, I want to be like that character. And so I do appreciate, I feel like in a ballet story about young girls being pressured to be like, quote unquote, great at this thing. It would be weird to not touch on eating issues at all.

In the same way that it's weird that they don't touch on queer issues. Yeah. I also think like to that point, what's the guy who broke his leg? Eric. Eric. Eric, like, if she had broken her leg because she hasn't had proper nutrition for, like, years, that would maybe have sent a message to me, like, oh, it's killing her. Right.

Versus, like, she's going to go on and be totally fine. She's just going to go to law school. Like, that's sort of the vibe you get. Yeah, like, there's nothing that she has to unlearn, and, like, there's no growth point. It's just like, well, I had one conversation, and I decided I don't do that anymore or dance and i'm like right and it was like it was her boyfriend who pointed it out to her and it was like the secondhand embarrassment of her boyfriend knowing

that she was doing it that really seemed to sort of push it over the i don't know like i appreciate that this movie tried to do something and like think probably the best way to, I mean, because it's the institution of ballet and things like Hollywood and any other sort of institution that pressures people to have their bodies be a certain way. That's the thing that's harmful. And that's what needs to be commented on and challenged and addressed in these movies. but the movie doesn't really it's not like well it's ballet it's this school that's making me do this and that's why I feel so much pressure it's I think that's maybe suggested that but I don't think it goes all the way to like challenge it enough right yeah and I think like you know it is a movie with a bunch of young, thin people. And so like, I just felt like what was more glaring to me as a child was the fact that like she was lonely and like had isolated herself. Not so much that like everyone else wasn't also at like a very low weight doing this, this work.

And so I think that like, it's almost like none of those people called it. None of them cared. No one almost like, none of those people called it, none of them cared. No one was like, Emily deserves to stay. They were all just like, well okay, one less person to compete against in this dance school. And I think that maybe it just feels like, because there's only one character that's dealing with it, it felt too reduced because I'm like,

everyone here is affected in ways by the idea of what they're supposed to look like on stage. Especially because like some of them get, like Jodi is told she doesn't have the ideal body type. She, you know, and she's like, I shouldn't eat cookies.

I'm already in enough trouble with my body. So like they're all in Emily constantly being like, you need to see your nutritionist. You're too, you've gained too much weight. So they're all being told it but it seems like yeah Maureen is the only one who is who has developed an eating disorder based on it but this could be I think you're totally right Akilah where it's like this could have been a conversation between everyone that could have like bonded them a little more

strongly and they're like one of the things with Maureen's character that i wish you'd gotten to see was like what was that conversation at length between like eva and maureen like of like when maureen is like does she share why does she just say get out there go get them like yeah that that could be a really interesting thing that i mean eva and anyone at that school like you're saying like could relate with the pressure and maybe they don't like go full bulimic. But everyone can relate with like withholding food and all that. And like that's something that they could have talked about. Yeah, especially if we saw them be like, oh, all of our like instructors are telling us, oh, we need to like watch what we eat and go to the nutritionist. If they like kind of together rose up against that as a group, be like, no, like we need to be healthy.

We are athletes. Like we need to take care of our bodies. We cannot be starving ourselves. Good luck in 2000 with that. Right, right, right. Even in 2020. I mean, I went to a ballet last year and I was like, oh, my God. Like this is, yeah.

No one's fighting back against those standards. The way that movie would end would be like, and we're all going to law school. But it would be fun. Another thing about Maureen is she's the only one that we get to see interact with a parent. Again, there's ups and downs to this. Her mom is written pretty egregiously, I feel like. She is like stage mom the the moment between them that i found so so basically maureen's mom is very hard on her it's her dream not maureen's

and so she's she's a dance mom she's literally a dance mom and the one moment that between them that i found really heartbreaking was when maureen was trying to push she was trying to tell that weird joke that never made sense to her mom. Oh, my gosh. The elephant, the mouse rape joke? Like, what the fuck? Was that what it was? I was just like, I have no idea what she's trying to say.

But she was trying to, like, have a little fun with her mom. And her mom blamed Maureen acting differently. Like, Maureen was trying to tell her mom, I have an eating disorder. I'm not healthy. And her mom was like, pizza boyfriends ruining your wife. I was like, mom, you dumbass. Yeah. That part, you're just like, oh, that sucks.

Like, she's trying to be open with her mom, and her mom's just, like, not receiving it. Like, I thought it was, like, well written. But for the most part, you're like, I don't know. How did you feel about it? Wait, okay, one thing. Yeah. On Maureen, I do think she has the best line in the film

where she says, I'm the best goddamn dancer in whatever company. Who the hell are you? Nobody. I think about it all the time. All the time. It was such a weird read, too. Yeah, and I'm like...

No, she says, nobody. He's like, oh shit, she's getting aggro. I'm getting out of here. Like she really changed her voice for that. Pizza boyfriend found, like, demolished. I also just feel like that subplot between Maureen and I guess his name is Jim. Jim the caterator. That subplot could have been written

out of the movie nothing really would have changed and I think that screen time could have then been dedicated to if there are going to be romantic subplots give it to Eric especially because Jim is like he stalks her he

relentlessly calls her when he finds out so he finds out her name and where she goes to school. So then he starts calling like the administration building. Which is horrifying. And also the fact that they would even like say anything. Right. And then he just shows up. She like walks outside one day and he's just like waiting there for her.

And he's like, here's my phone number. And she's like, okay, I guess we're dating now. In Jim's defense, though, this was 2000. People did not have cell phones. It's true. There's no social media. They had a real connection. How else was he ever going to see her again?

He knew one detail. I was annoyed at Emily in that. I'm like, Emily, why did you give Jim her last name? I know. Could have prevented pizza boyfriend from happening. That's why no one wants you around either. I also, I mean, so that, I feel like, yeah, that was a pretty, like, cut and dry predatory romance. Like, we've seen this a bajillion times, especially in this era.

But they also, like, it felt like a weird thing that he was made out to be, like, a working class guy. And then they kind of backtrack on that later. They're like, well, he's a medical student, so don't worry. He's still, like, a quote unquote good option for Maureen i think there's like a little bit of like classy stuff because i thought he was going to be her gobble ghoul boyfriend who like brought her out bowling and you're like oh it's like a working class character in this movie that's like not really full of characters like that the jack of her rose duet bu Buketer. Exactly. But then he's not. Ewan McGregor in Moulin Rouge.

Yes! Why wouldn't you choose the Maharaja? You have to. That's the question. I ask myself that every day. That's real love, you know?

Another movie that I would love to talk about any time. We already covered it, but we'll do it again. We'll do it again. Honestly, we're just going to have to start doing best of favorite movies again. So already covered it, but we'll do it again. We'll do it again. Honestly, we're just going to have to start doing, like, best of favorite movies again.

So Maureen, I mean, I think a lot, I mean, like many characters, it's like they start to address, they start an interesting conversation. And for whatever reason, either they chose not to or, like, for production reasons, were not able to follow through on the kind of thing but i mean again like toxic stage parents are so prevalent in ballet that you're like okay this makes sense that this is at least they're trying to and it's melodramatic but kind of this whole movie is right whatever at the end she's like i have i have a pizza boyfriend now and that's my future well okay give her pizza i forget why forget why pizza is a thing. He gives her on their date. She eats the weirdest bite of pizza.

She has a tip of pizza. And then he's like, babe, you're like classic pizza boyfriend. Eat it better. Yeah. Eat it the way you're supposed to eat pizza. Come on, act like you've had pizza before. You're embarrassing me. That's that whole scene.

Who else? is there any i think well i we we sort of touched on this during jody's section she's just such a boring protagonist that it's hard to want to talk about her yeah sorry jody uh she's not perhaps interesting yeah but with cooper i was like was he did you find that he was being what what was their like, so are they, she's a student and he's in the company. Is that like, in terms of predatory, I like couldn't really suss out because at first I'm like, is she like 16? And I'm like, no, I guess she's 18. Yeah, like I think they're all supposed to be adults. You're right.

It is predatory. And I think that it's the way they tried to write around that is like, well, he's not like he doesn't have a lot of power in the company like he has to start his own because like no one respects him so it's not like she's fucking someone who can give him something give her something it's just like a guy that happens to be older and like cool weirdly wanting to hang out and how much older we don't know yeah the actor was 25 when it was filmed so I'm like okay that's less egregious than I thought it was going to be. But it was, I don't know. I guess we could just be like, it was off.

You have to start your own ballet company with funding. A business owner. He might, I mean, let's say, to make myself feel better, let's say he was only in the academy for one year prior to that. And he made the companies. And now this is his, so maybe he's 19 or 20 but then they're also like he went off to london for a while and fucked everyone who lived in london they also really like glaze over the fact they're like oh he also has a serious drinking problem he also won't stop harassing his ex they oh i wanted to say something really quickly about his

ex kathleen who i wish was in the movie more because she just didn't have time for anyone in this movie. Every time she's on screen, she's like, whatever. And then she's like, I'm married to OC Daddy. I'm happy. But they talk kind of cruelly about her at one point where she walks past the younger girls at the beginning. And they're like, oh, it's Kathleen. She's in the company, blah, blah, blah. And then they're talking about like, well she married oc daddy and they're kind of making it seem like she's like she's the one trying to like get ahead yeah like

she's like not gold digging but yeah like just trying to secure her place in this company and that is one thing that kind of goes unchallenged and they kind of are critical of her for that but then we see she's really good. It's not like she's horrible and doesn't deserve to be there. And then kind of the same thing with Jodi that I felt like weird that it's written this way where Cooper only invites her to dance for him

after they've slept together. Right. Which she doesn't really seem to care about and she kind of flaunts that in front of Kathleen. I mean, even the dance is that. There's a bed on the stage. Yeah, they want to stay in the dance. They're like, why don't we go through everything that happened in the two weeks we've known each other right here in a dance.

It's kind of like Moulin Rouge again. Because it's like the play in Moulin Rouge is what's happening in the narrative of the movie. Well, that's the thing, Jamie. It's like, for such a long time, and even to some extent today, if a woman accomplishes anything, so many people are going to be like, well, who did she fuck to get that thing? And this movie just confirms it.

They're just like, well, we know who these two women fucked. Fortunately, they're pretty good. And you're just like, I don't like this precedent there or yeah it was just written a little bit weird also it is funny to picture what that whole 15 minute dance would have been like at the end if eric did it like right that was just supposed to be eric that was just supposed to be eric halfway through that he's like wait is this about that time you

the teacher he's like hold on i'm just now getting it we're on a bed i don't have a bed frame what is this about but it was just yeah so so that like uh just like women's careers being i mean and there is i forget oh i read something like not too long ago that was it was just an argument that sometimes modern feminists come down on that story point a little hard because there were times in history where securing I think it was like something about little women were like securing powerful a man in power was the only way to ensure your own survival. But it's 2000 in this movie. So I'm pretty sure, you know, women existed. Some other options. I'm every woman had existed independently. Some other options. I'm Every Woman had come out.

These are songs. And we see that they're both talented enough to not need that. So it's weird that the movie doubles down on them needing that on top of being capable. I don't know. That means there's two different love triangles happening because there's one between Jodi, Charlie, and Cooper, and there's one between Cooper, Mr. OC Daddy, and then Kathleen. I mean, but is it if Kathleen and OC Daddy are both like, get away from us? Yeah.

Yeah. They're like a line and a dot. Cooper's just trying to insert himself into it. And yeah, but it's weird. And then like the Kathleen character is just treated, again, as like the object that just keeps getting like tug of war back and forth. But I kind of, I guess that's why I like Kathleen

because like people are trying to do exactly what they're doing to Jodi, which is like yank, yank. And Kathleen's sort of like not having it. Like there are moments where she's like, Cooper, you're being annoying. Like your girlfriend's 18 cool um type that you're dating a toddler but whatever but it's like she she is like unwilling to engage it in a way that and it's like i don't blame jody because she's a fictional character and she's very young and that's another way that

you're like oh he is like cooper is very emotionally manipulative where he'll like yell at her during rehearsal yeah he's her boss but he's her boyfriend and there's an eight like the difference for i mean not for everybody but like if i was 18 and dating someone in their mid-20s i would be so out of my fucking depth i wouldn't have known what to do right and so like there's that like it's just a it's just a weird setup they give us yeah it's also like I think that all of her interior life with these relationships I think it does a disservice to the point of this being a dance movie because like she is consistently criticized for her like skills and abilities but she's always

fine and everything she does is dancing and she's like normally fine like the dance class no one was like keep up ballet girl like she was great at salsa we were made to believe she was great and so it's like yeah wait so is her challenge dance because like even if people are saying you suck you suck you suck every day about her body and her turnout and whatever that has never been a hindrance to her finding success. So they're like, well, I guess my only problem then is that I'm boning this guy. Right.

Like, I'm not going to engage in the smoking discourse, so that's not even a problem. She doesn't have problems. She creates her own through sticking around with these terrible dudes. We're used to seeing white male mediocrity. So this time we're seeing white female mediocrity. That's progress.

That's progress. 2000. Pretty forward thinking. We got to wrap up, right? We got to. Okay. Hey, gang, does this movie pass the Bechdel test? Oh, yeah.

Almost certainly. Oh, yeah. We're talking about cigarettes. almost certainly we're talking about cigarettes we're talking about ballet we're talking about turnout food we're talking about is your dreams not mine

a lot of characters a lot of combinations definite passing I just scared Sophie women are talking about all sorts of things there there is a larger uh romantic presence but that doesn't get in the way of it passing the test true all right let's rate it on our nipple scale uh zero to five nipples like how many nipples we saw i don't really remember any i think zero yeah maybe the dude nipples yeah maybe some dude

nipples um so yeah zero to five nipples based on its representation of women. To me, this one's kind of like split down the middle. It's like a 2.5. Just because it's, I think it's making some attempts at trying to tackle various things. None of it goes very far or does anything. But it's also probably, it's, I think it would have been kind of groundbreaking or impressive for 2000. So the fact that they're including a queer character at all, the fact that they're touching on eating disorders, the fact that they include a couple characters of color, different things like that, but also just a lot of the other problems that we've already discussed. So 2.5 and I'll give two to Zoe Saldana and I'll give my remaining half nipple to I'll give to Maureen. Cool.

Yeah. She needs it. She's going through a tough time. In her new career. Yeah, I feel the same way. Like two and a half. I think this movie is like actually making an effort, which in 2000 is like, wow, an effort to talk about things. Even if it doesn't get all the way there, that's something.

Yeah, it's progress in its way. You know, like attempts for 2000 is not nothing in what was intended to be like a widely very popular movie, which maybe it wasn't. But, you know, whatever. I just I love dance movies yeah and then i i think that like the main points were like yeah the not really it seems like they weren't able to deal with a queer storyline in the way that they may have liked to um i wish that we had gotten to learn more about eva and avoided a little more of the like stock personality traits there and just like the intense like let's replace any point women could be interacting with a hetero

plot point of like men that we keep forgetting about but I love who suck in general who are either the worst or Charlie from Seattle likeattle like whatever um i love sergey anyways two and a half nipples one to sergey uh one to zoe saldana and the last half to kathleen i'm going strong to nips um i agree with everything both of you just said so i will my new point i guess is that with a movie that has, I would say, upwards of three stars, like people who are well known. Yeah, this movie should have done better. I think that it's a shame that you can have people who are clearly talented and not use them to the best of their abilities. Like the dancers should have been dancing.

Why were they talking to me? We regret a missed opportunity and i think yeah in in the genre that it was in like i considered it kind of like in the same era of like high school movies that were like big like 10 things and cruel intentions even like i i don't know i think that um you know if i had to give my two nipples for all of these things i I would give one nipple to New York City, holding it down. A beautiful backdrop for a very boring story. And, okay, I'm going to give half a nipple

to Sandy Cohen's eyebrows. Shout out. The beginning of an era. And I'll give the other half to Zoe because she should smoke in the dorms. Burn it down. Who cares? Who cares? Akilah, thank you

so much for being here. Thank you for having me. This has been a highlight of my life. This is wonderful. Thank you. We're so glad you could come. Where can people follow you online? Check out your stuff. All that. I live on the internet so follow me on on Twitter, at Akilah, obviously. Subscribe to my podcast.

It's a daily news podcast for Crooked Media called What a Day. It comes out Monday through Friday. And, I don't know, don't show up at my dance recital if I don't invite you. That's it. Perfect rule of thumb. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, you can follow us at Bechdelcast on Twitter, Instagram, all the places. You can follow us on Patreon.

$5 a month means you get two bonus episodes every month. And get merch at tpublic.com slash the Bechtelcast. Wow. Wow. And now we all dance away. Parabore. Away. Bye-bye.

Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unnerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free,

subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister, or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller

from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There's so much beauty in Mexican culture, like mariachis, delicious cuisine, and even lucha libre. Join us for the new podcast, Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12-episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of lucha libre. And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, emperor of lucha libre and a WWE superstar. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you stream podcasts.