The Bechdel Cast - Charlie's Angels (2000)

Episode Date: November 14, 2019

Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Sasheer Zamata are a trio of crime-fighting women who solve the mystery of whether or not Charlie's Angels (2000) is a feminist text. (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @thesheertruth Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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And that's the nature of our- That's what's kind of hot about it, isn't it? You're an old man that I can't see and I can never meet. And that's kind of what gets me going. Same. With all my friends and Bill Murray. Fucking what? Hi. kind of what gets me going same with all my friends and bill murray fucking what they're hi welcome to the bechdel cast this movie is so weird okay um hi welcome to the bechdel cast my name is jamie loftus my name is caitlin dorante this is our feminist movie podcast and as you

can tell we're going to discuss a very feminist movie today i a feminist text. I mean, yeah, I've truly built myself from the building blocks of these various bikini people. Yeah, I also learned who Sam Rockwell was from this movie. Oh, sure. What is this podcast? I forget. So we talk about, I know this is our first time recording in quite some time. We took other a big gap in like a month maybe even more no it's september 1st isn't it weird that i've been keeping counting like i just haven't seen you for 29 days i'm well all right because of our live episodes yeah oh my goodness you're right okay yes anyway so we're all out of sorts but we're back and better than ever and we talk about the representation of women in film and how it's usually, you know, not the best.

And we use... Especially in the year 2000. Oh, boy. I think that this is maybe a low. Indeed, yeah. And we use the Bechdel test, sometimes known as the Bechdel-Wallace test, which requires that two female identifying characters with names must speak to each other about something other than a man. Hello Charlie.

Oh, hello. Oops, it already failed. Oh no. By our standards, it must just be a two line exchange. Right. So we're set. We're starting by setting the bar real low and seeing if if any movies can crest it. And the test is invented by cartoonist Alison Bechdel.

It sure is. Oh, boy. We're back. We're back. 29 days. I feel like I haven't spoken in so long. We also have a guest with us. Yes.

As per usual. Yes. Our guest today, she's a comedian, a writer. You've seen her on SNL. I've heard of it. today she's a comedian a writer you've seen her on snl and she's the co-host of the podcast best friends with past guest of the show nicole byer it's sashir zameda yes hi hello charlie oh what a what do we know who plays charlie in movie? It's the actual Charlie from the TV show. Oh, the back of the head guy at the end?

Yeah. Not to spoil the movie for everyone. I don't know if that actor that we saw physically in the movie is the same person, but the voice is the same as the guy who played it in the TV show. And I'm looking up his name as we speak, and he's not first build so let me give me a second here well that's part of why he's such an icon is he doesn't take up space uh john forsyth is his name and this is us not passing the bechdel test no so they're not all gonna pass no but um so shira thank you so much for being here um tell us about your history, your relationship with this movie, this maybe franchise, as it were.

And so we're talking about the 2000 movie version. Cameron Diaz, Drew Barrymore, Lucy Liu. Yes. Yes, I watched this movie when it came out. I'm pretty sure I saw Full Throttle as well. And I remember liking it. It's fun to see women do stuff that's like actiony yeah and we're thinking that was fun and this is my first time seeing it probably since it came out

i think that's probably the case for a lot of people yeah this isn't a movie that people seem to like revisit a lot yeah we're and we're we're discussing it because the reboot is about to come out because legally you have to everything so that's why we're I mean otherwise I truly don't know if I ever would have seen or thought about this movie again and I'm sure that that's true for maybe everyone who was in the movie. Do you know the name of the... I got really stuck on this when I was doing the background research for this movie. The name of the director is just McG.

McG? Yes. Is that he... You didn't know that? I'm not familiar with McG's work, I guess. I feel like he was a music video director. He was. Which makes sense for a McG name.

Okay, that makes more sense to me. I was just like, this is his first feature, but he also, he comes back for full throttle. He does. Good for McG. Keep it in the family. Exactly. He was a success the first time. Nick G.

And then the movie is, of course, written by three men, including John August, who I think people maybe think better of. But but you know, it was 2000. I do remember noticing that Drew Barrymore produced this movie, like when it came out. Or like she was one of the producers. And I remember being like, fucking good for her! Because she's had a life, you know? Like from going from a 12 year old addict

to still alive and really like creating her own shit i think that's really great and awesome so and she made a ton of money off this franchise yeah oh yeah yeah yeah and she's and when this movie came out she's like still only 25 which is crazy insane oh yeah yeah mean, she's lived several lives. Yeah. Jamie, what's your history relationship with this? I think pretty similar. I remember seeing this movie at like a sleepover at some point, thinking it was really funny and cool. And like, I don't know, I was probably like 11. So I was like, oh, I understand this sexy joke. And like, just everyone's just faking their way through it. Yeah, I mean, I think I just saw it once, maybe twice.

Haven't seen it in at least 15 years. And also, it was kind of fun on this watch to like, when I saw this movie for the first time, I didn't know who Sam Rockwell was. I didn't know who Tim Curry was. Like, there were all these actors that are in this movie that I just was like when I was 10, I was just like Lucy Liu is awesome. There's a ton of people in this. A ton of people made a ton of money. And at the end of the day, don't we just want a bunch of random people to have a lot of money? This movie also looks so expensive.

Yeah. There's just whole scenes that could be cut that are so expensive it was yeah it's like really early aughts decadence for no reason yeah what's your history with it i had never seen any of this charlie's angels content i hadn't watched the show at all never watched these movies not this one nor full throttle uh i i have seen both of them now um except for the last 20 minutes of full throttle which i didn't have time to finish before we started recording you on your toes you don't want to you couldn't get to the end of it you are dying to know how it turned out as soon as we hit stop on this record I will return to it you have to run don't walk uh I yeah I just I don't know

why I didn't ever see these but I think I was like maybe like you know 2000 I was a freshman in high school so I was like I'm too cool for girl movies I'm a guy's gal you know that whole thing the coolest kind of person right so but I gathered some information and I realize a lot of it now is uh misinformation from these movies like I thought yeah I thought Bernie Mac was Charlie but he's just Bosley but only in the second movie like I just had I was all I'm all mixed up but now I've said everything straight wait Bill Murray isn't in the second movie correct there's because apparently he had um there was animosity between him and McG and then also apparently between him he had beef with McG oh no god yeah I hate that sentence so much.

That's brutal. Oh, but yeah, were you going to say Lucy Liu was the other person he had beef with? Yes. I also remember hearing that. And I didn't, I don't know when I heard this, but I was like, that's a weird thing. But then didn't realize until I was watching the movie, oh, it's probably from this movie. Because I was like, when would they have talked to each other? I just didn't know. But yeah, I guess they probably had beef.

That sucks. I know. Well. Because also, I've never met no actually no i met lucille once very pleasant but also we were at a show so why would why would she be otherwise but i was like what does she really mean for no reason yeah but in my mind i'm like who would ever be mad at her yeah uh should i dive in to the recap yeah recap away all right so charlie's angels 2000 directed by mcg feminist icon mcg tells the story um okay so there's an opening sequence so crazy that i think we just need to dedicate like a full hour to talk about that just separately i have a quick i i know this is a feminist podcast but i'm just going to be sprinkling in some big g facts i've learned first he directed the smash mouth all-star music video oh wow so he's coming in hot hey now and then he then he directed

documentaries for both corn and sugar ray because their stories must be told and then he got charlie's angel wow what an interesting yeah they're like this is the guy they're like his voice clearly is mall teens love him the opening sequence they're on a plane and ll cool jay is there and we'll talk about the whole thing a little later on. Yeah. But we're introduced to the Angels, this trio of crime-fighting private investigators. They are all women. Woo!

The twist. The twist is they're women this time. And they all work for this guy named Charlie, who they've never met. They've only ever heard his voice. Which is a carryover from the show as well, I believe. Yeah. The angels are Natalie. That's Cameron Diaz.

She's really good at driving. And she's also a genius on Jeopardy. Very unclear. Their characters are perhaps not defined very well. No. They marry Sue scene by scene. They're like, oh no, she's also a scientist. I'm like,

oh, I saw her at a cop academy. They're like, whatever. It's fine. She's a scientist. Whatever. Then we've got Alex. That's Lucy Liu. She is a horseback rider. But then they also imply she's an astronaut. Neither of which come into play at any other point.

And she's dating Matt LeBlanc, who also plays an actor in this movie. And who has a very bad haircut. He looks wet all the time. Yes, he does. Another wet-haired man. I think that was like the early 2000s. Yeah. Just like guys who looked like they needed to be toweled off. Yes. Another wet-haired man. I think that was like the early 2000s. Yeah.

Just like guys who looked like they needed to be toweled off. Gross. And then Dylan, Drew Barrymore's character, she's kind of like a badass rocker chick. And I guess also she's the slutty one

because she has sex with Chad, a.k.a. Tom Green, her future husband. Hard Chad, a.k.a. Tom Green, her future husband. Hard pill to swallow. Yes. You know what? Maybe he's great. I don't know.

Oh, sure. Yeah, we don't know. Maybe he's great. Then we also meet Bosley. That's Bill Murray's character, and he is the liaison between Charlie and the Angels. They get their next assignment, which is to eric knox a tech bro who was kidnapped and whose voice recognition software was stolen his business partner vivian wood has hired the angels to find him and as they're looking at this surveillance footage of knox's

kidnapping they spot this like thin man in the reflection of a window. That's his character's name, the thin man. Which is like another, well, that's like another reference to another TV. Oh, the show? Yeah, yeah. Was it a show or a movie? I'm like, I'm pretending I've seen it. So Charlie's Angels was a TV series on, I forget which network, some broadcast network in the 70s into the early 80s.

So yes, I have not seen any of it. I think it lasted like four or five seasons. That was like where Farrah Fawcett became famous, right? That was the show? Sure. We're too young. People are going to dive into our mentions and be like, stupid idiots on the Bechtelcast. Didn't watch a show from 1976 i think that's

right i'm ready i think it was yeah it was like farrah faucet's yeah that was like thing yeah yeah i would believe it yeah there's also a lot of remakes of charlie's angels i just typed in charlie's angels into imdb and there's like the ones coming out in 2018, the 2001, 1976 TV series, 2011 TV series. Oh, nice stat. 2003 video game. Oh, there's something called Charlie's Angels that came out in 2017. I don't, I'm not sure who Charlie is. I mean, this is a popular property.

Everyone wants to adapt it. Yeah. Which I think is like weirdly telling in its own way, too. Just like, why are we still trying with this? There's something fascinating about women who are hot, but also good at spy stuff. Right. Also just subservient to a godlike voice. Oh, there's a 2006 TV show.

Good grief. The Thin Man is a famous 1930s detective movie. Oh, there's a 2006 TV show. Good grief. The Thin Man is a famous 1930s detective movie. Oh, yes. That I do. Is that Hitchcock? It's called The Thin Man? Yeah. Yeah, The Thin Man.

Okay, so they spot The Thin Man in the reflection of a car window. And so they're like, okay, we got to figure out who this guy is. We have to find him. And then they know of an enemy of Eric Knox. the reflection of a car window and they so they're like okay we got to figure out who this guy is we have to find him and then they know of an enemy of eric knox this guy named corwin that's tim curry's character who owns a satellite company and who at one point tried to buy knox enterprises but knox refused to sell did any of you get like confused with the various villainous plots that were like I kept I was trying really hard to find I was like this is like I just couldn't like many like spy like detective espionage type stories I think they're purposefully convoluted so that

you just don't realize how many like plot holes there are and stuff like that. I was getting insecure and I was like, I'm going to get there and they're going to know exactly what happened. No. I'm not really sure what happened. Who cares? Doesn't matter. Give them excuses to do stuff. Why are they at a racetrack?

Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Now they're there. And they are racing. Baffling. Full throttle is far more confusing so if you think this one's bad like just wait till you see full throttle i don't mind the complicated plot i just was worried that i personally was stupid and didn't understand no it's it's for sure overly complicated and pretty nonsensical cool okay so um the angels crash corwin's party to try to get some intel and luke wilson is there and he and natalie are flirting sure um and at

the party they spot the thin man who is played by Crispin Glover. And they all chase after him. And he inadvertently leads them to Eric Knox, all tied up and kidnapped, who, Jamie, as you pointed out, is played by Sam Rockwell, an all-star cast is what we're saying. Tinted glasses, Sam Rockwell. Oof. Wild.

So they rescue him, but his voice recognition technology is still gone. And they realize that Corwin wants this voice technology because it can turn any cell phone into a homing device. So they have to go get it back to protect people's privacy. I mean, isn't that what we're going through right now? I mean, yes. They knew. They knew back in 2000 that this would be a problem. Telling. people's privacy i mean isn't that what we're going through right now i mean yes they knew they knew back in 2000 that this would be a problem telling we should have listened to mcg

when we had the chance so then they plant a camera on corwin's briefcase at the racetrack which is a scene that we need to have so that they can surveil the inside of his like corporate headquarters and then they figure out what they need to do to infiltrate corwin's security vault um there's these like two security director guys whose fingerprints and retinal scans they need so they go and gather that stuff and they break into the vault and hack into corwin's mainframe. They do hack. They hack. And that's fun. Pretty hard.

You gotta hand it to them. They hack. And also Melissa McCarthy's there. Yes. Melissa McCarthy is there, yeah. This has to be a really early role for her. I think so. I think.

Right. She's great. She calls Lucy Liu a bitch in a scene that, spoiler alert, does pass the Bechdel test. It does pass, yeah yeah it is full of 400 men but 400 horny men flanking lucy lou and yet somehow it still passes the bechdel test it's a limited metric that's not perfect meanwhile nox and drew barry moore's character, Dylan, are flirting. And then Cameron Diaz is going on her date with Luke Wilson. Vivian Wood, Knox's partner, seems kind of suspicious. And then she is also seducing Bill Murray shortly after that.

Because everyone has to be seducing someone. If you're a woman in this movie you must be seductive yes yeah yeah we'll talk all about your body is your only weapon in most scenes yeah and then crispin glover's character the thin man who is crispin glover why should i know who he is um played george mcfly in back to the. That's probably his biggest role to date. Oh, okay. That's how I know him. All right.

He kills Corwin, Tim Curry's character, and then other people are trying to kill the angels, and then Vivian drugs and kidnaps Bosley because, surprise, Vivian and Knox are the bad guys. Knox is Sam Roxwell's. Yes. Yes. Mm Roxwell. Yes. Yes. Yep.

And then the angels figure out that Knox was using them to tap into Corwin's satellite technology so that Knox could use his voice recognition software to track down Charlie, their boss, because he thinks that Charlie killed his father so sure sure that's why he's after him this is honestly i'm like i'm totally gone at this point no idea okay now the angels figure out where bosley is being held and they go after him to rescue him so they all arrive at this place this like fortress nox captures d Dylan and ties her up. Natalie rescues Bosley and then fights with Vivian for a bit. Alex tries to interfere with Knox's like phone trace to figure out where Charlie is while she's also fighting Crispin Glover. And then finally, all these fights are happening. Exhausting. Then Knox finally pinpoints Charlie's location and then leaves in a helicopter to go get him.

Not very far. Not far at all. Like down the beach. Really close by. Extremely conveniently close. Like a jet ski away. Yeah. And then the angels are fighting off the bad guys.

And then they go to stop Knox. They blow up his helicopter. That's a great shot where the missile hits Sam Rockwell and explodes. He dies. Right in his face. Oh, he's in pieces. He's shredded. Intense.

Then they wash up on the beach right in front of Charlie's house, which is right there. Which is at the edge of the beach. Not even like deep in a forest. No. I was like, oh, he's in hiding all right. But he's not there and they just missed him because you can only ever hear his voice. They're so horny before they go into the house. They're like, do you think he's going to?

Their relationship drives me nuts. They're all soaking wet and they're like, do you think he's gonna their relationship drives me nuts they're all soaking wet and they're like do you think he's gonna uh ladies uh and that's pretty much the end of the movie they're drunk on the beach after that and then that's the end yeah and it turns out charlie's actually watching them from afar creepily and chooses to not introduce himself rude but he does have framed pictures of them in his house it's so weird and that is the movie hey jamie yeah you know how the angels are always traveling around jet setting zip going to all manner of places yes and you also know how we do a fair amount of traveling sure do for our podcast and other comedy stuff. Well, our travels just got a lot easier with Away.

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Thank you so much. We both had them. Yes. It was fun. Yeah. And it was thank you so much we both had them yes it was fun yeah and it was great for us i was able to fit so much inside super lightweight when you're you know carrying it up and down the stairs the wheels are so much better than any other suitcase i've ever had aka not jammed with rocks right yeah and i just i love the sleek design i love everything about it it's super cute away suitcases are designed to last a lifetime, but if any part of your suitcase breaks, Away's standout customer service team will arrange to have it fixed or replaced ASAP.

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The angels. Oh, boy. Can we start with, I wanted to compliment this movie on exact like on on one thing that i thought was and there's moments where you're like but i i was kind of expecting the fight choreography in this movie to be super lame and like the way that we see female action heroes especially like a little earlier, are really like they're only allowed to fight other women. They don't really have weapons. They're pulling hair and kicking each other.

Literally, they're vagina pressing. What is the movie where they vagina press each other in the face? I mean, there are dozens of movies where a woman wraps her legs slash vagina around usually a man's face, but it could be any gender. And then like slant pussy slams them into the ground. That's what I meant. Vagina press. Nasty.

I'm sorry. That sounds like some merch. We will need to make the vagina press. I thought it was two pussies pressed against each other. That's what I thought. I was like, like what move is this we'll make a list um but but and and not in every example but the fight choreography was way better and cooler than i thought it was going to be there was like the whole first fight sequence where the three of them are fighting that guy you can tell it's the actual actors that are doing the fight choreography they're really good

at it it seems like they're like it was like exciting i don't know i there was a lot of the fight choreography that i thought was like way better than i was expecting from this kind of movie it did seem like when their legs were in the air for a long time that they were being held up by strings or something oh Oh, for sure. There was at one point where you can see Drew Barrymore land in a harness and sort of be like, she like bounces down. I was like, all right, McG didn't get the shot. It happened. Well, this movie comes out a year after The Matrix comes out.

And this movie very desperately wants to have fight scenes that look a lot like the fight scenes in the matrix they have there's kind of like there are elements of this movie that are so campy silly that i'm like the obvious harnesses i thought were kind of fun yeah because they could afford to not i mean this they had a 93 million dollar budget to make this movie. Wow. Which in 2000, who even knows? It's like ridiculous. They were just blowing up race cars because it was allowed.

They're like, fuck, you know. Again, in a scene that really has no bearing on the plot whatsoever. No, right? Okay, I was just checking because I was like, maybe every time I would get confused, I'm like, it's probably because I didn't understand the race car scene. Yeah. It really is that scene. Does something happen in that scene? I think the point was to plant a camera on this guy so they could figure out the entryway to the vault. But there's

no reason that needs to happen at this race car track thing. I guess that's just what that guy was doing that day. The guy that had like the tuft of Drew Barrymore's hair that he couldn't stop smelling was that that's the thin man that's chris bing glover but they weren't looking for him they're looking for a tim curry chris bing glover honestly couldn't pick him up out of a lineup but he's like one of the like minions hair sniffing minions yeah hair sniffing minion a new trope when he started when he jumped in the race car

because i guess he's also tim curry's hired race car driver right and then cameron diaz went after him drew barrymore started was like you don't have to chase him he's in a circle but he's like yes why is this happening he's not going anywhere he's just practicing for the big race right but then they do go off the track they do into traffic which is very dangerous a bridge that looks like it's a bridge in san francisco but they're all in la i don't know what bridge this would be and why there's no traffic on it there's no cars well to your point jamie another thing i really like about this movie especially as it pertains to like kind of the action and the fighting and all that, is that we get to see a woman participate in a chase scene being the driver. And then she plays essentially a game of chicken with this bad guy and she wins. By flipping him over and having her car unaffected.

She does win by basically magic, but she wins nonetheless. Yeah. I was like, I guess let's just get out what we like. Yeah. There's not a ton. There was. But it is. I mean, it is cool that it's kind of like baked into the premise that they're like they're

going to win. Sure. Obviously. And that's like not always like you know that's rare for you know women to get to be in action movies at all much less be the winners and the main characters i mean it's right we can count on one maybe two hands the action franchises that have women as the protagonists that also like performed super well at the box office and like this is this feels like a sort of like a like weird to revisit step of sort of progress sometimes in some ways right

but the other thing that I liked because I was worried at the end where they're all fighting in the climactic battle sequence where there's too many fights to keep track of and I can't tell a lot of like crispin glover and sam rockwell i honestly was having trouble at some point i'm like who's sure um but drew barrymore dylan she gets kind of damseled for a little bit but then she frees herself and kills them all with a chair. And so even that, they kind of dodged the damseling, one of the heroes at the end. So I thought that was cool too. She also gets a nice cathartic moment where she was wronged and lied to and used by Sam Rockwell.

Sam Rockwell with sunglasses. And then she gets a nice moment of being able to beat the shit out of him before he explodes and dies yeah she really does get her revenge and then she's like well back to tom green you know and then the character who is actually the most damseled is bosley a man so that was a nice change of pace and then they yeah and he doesn't and it's like it's nice because i feel like that's another like thing that i don't even know how consciously they're doing it but i feel like it would have been very easy to write that character of like god i can't believe i'm

being saved by a lady this is so emasculating but bill murray's like thank you i'm just like you are clearly more skilled than i am please help me right so i was like all right that's you know it's like there are there are like kernels of good stuff going on here. Yeah. And it is fun to watch as fucking confusing and misogynist as and like, you know, like current problematic on every single level. It's just there's just so there's so much happening that you can't even when I don't know what's going on.

I can't look away. Right. Yeah. It is fun. Yeah. It just looks fun it's fun it's silly there's a lot of like ton of explosions lots of like jokey like sexual innuendo jokes where you know cameron diaz is like oh i signed that waiver so you can stick it in my slot anytime which you know brings us to some of the things that perhaps are not great about this movie okay we're getting into it well is there anything else that anyone thought was particularly well done i liked the soundtrack the soundtrack is fun

because they're it's also great Destiny's Child song. Oh, yeah. Written for this movie. Yes. Independent Woman Part One. But also there is a song during the fight scene in the alleyway with the thin man, the lyrics of which are smack my bitch up. I think that also might be the name of the song. So, you know, maybe the thin man's the bitch. Maybe. You know what? might be the name of the song. So, you know.

Maybe the thin man's the bitch. Maybe. You know what? I didn't think of that. Yeah. We'll take it. Yeah. It's a fun song, though.

It is a fun song. Okay. So where do we dive in? I don't know. Maybe the beginning where Drew Barrymore is in disguise as LL Cool J. Yes. Yeah. Let's start at the beginning. drew barrymore is in disguise as ll cool j yes yeah that's let's start

at the beginning how do we i definitely didn't remember that didn't see it coming and was like slack jawed because the way these three characters are introduced it's like gets progressively worse where it's like cameron diaz is you know she's in a bikini and you're like all right great and then Lucy Liu gets this comically long she's like shaking her hair out for 20 seconds she like takes off her helmet so long whips her hair back and forth and then you're like where's Drew Barrymore at and then you're like no what I actually did remember this from when I first watched the movie. And as it was happening, I was like, oh, damn. I guess I was okay with it when I first saw this.

And now I'm like, this is really crazy. Yeah. Yeah. But not only is LL Cool J a black man, but also an African man with like. Yes. Right. Kuntikinte cloth. And then even his parachute is matching his african garb

everything every inch of fabric on this man was quote-unquote african garb uh-huh and i don't even think he tried to do an accent because why it's already i don't think he did already already disguised yeah the oh the the disguises are just i mean there's not a good one in the bunch that was that was alarming i'm like what yeah what so yes and that's not the last time that drew berry more specifically geez later in brown face brown face yes there so yeah we'll get to that in a moment. Just to close the conversation on the extremely bizarre LL Cool J mask disguise scenario. Yeah. The way that reveal happens is that, like, Drew Barrymore, as LL Cool J, has, like, grabbed this guy and they've jumped out of a plane together because he has a bomb strapped to him, this bad guy. Yeah.

Which he just shows. Yeah, he's like, hi, here it is. He's like, where's the bomb? He's like, bad guy yeah and then he just shows yeah he's like hi he's like where's the bomb he's like me it's me yeah and then the bad guy is like what plane is this very luxurious what airline is like couches in the in first class i was like i've been on a lot of first classes and that i've never seen a plane like that next level there's also that racist flight attendant who's like ll cool j there's no way you could be in first class which is like thank god you know we got some progress here true they're trying to show like even though this is a white woman inside of a black body this person still deserves rights so many that same flight attendant a few minutes earlier was like it's not the seats

that have gotten smaller it's that your ass has gotten bigger he's like making fun he's like fat shaming this woman who i guess was complaining yeah it's like one of the first lines that's spoken in the movie why didn't he get blown up i don't know i mean he never comes back i was like maybe he'll come back and he'll get you know helicopter blown up he's sick but this bad guy who has a bomb strapped to him he's like who are you people you you crazy bastard and then ll cool j takes out the voice modifying device and then it's drew barrymore's voice and she says i think you mean crazy bitch and you're like she's a woman because she's a woman because she's a woman she's not a bastard she's a bitch. Because she's a woman. Because she's a woman. She's not a bastard. She's a bitch.

This is like the, I mean, this movie totally, we've talked about this on the show before, but just like that very bizarre late 90s, early 2000s like catchphrase based feminism that is based in nothing. It stands for nothing. And it's so jarring to see now. Like, actually, I'm a crazy bitch and then she takes off ll cool jay's face face you're this is also this is i used to one of my favorite movies troublingly used to be the master of disguise dana carvey vehicle 2002 his last starring vehicle yes

and that is like the rubber face masks of celebrities thing was just like a very strong trend during this. Yeah. The first Bush administration. It was just. Scary. Free open season. So fucking weird. After this, we have the massage parlor scene where Lucy Liu is massaging Tim Curry. Hate that.

Don't like it. Yeah. And then Drew and Cameron come in. And the way they are dressed and the music cue that happens when they show up is like just like full blown Japaneseown japanese culture appropriation right and there's also a song that happens uh after the music cue the lyrics of which are turning i think i'm turning japanese which not to not to like ring a ding a little bell on anyone but uh kirsten dunst weirdly did a cover of that horrible song like it was like 10 years

but it's still that song has a weird troubled legacy of being sung by white people constantly that yeah that's and this is jamie as you pointed out not the only time that these white women Cameron and Drew yeah um dress in a very appropriative garb because in a later scene Lucy and Cameron are like belly dancing in a scene that's appropriating Indian culture and then no one in this scene is Indian no no no nope and then Drew Barrymore in brown face yeah walks into scene, picks up a bottle with the dude's fingerprints on it. Why? Why? that no one talked about it or cared when this movie came out. That there's just like Drew Barrymore, very famous actor, producer of the movie in full on brown face for a whole scene and just everyone's like, yep. I think they probably had like a board of like,

what environments can these girls look hot? And then they like went backwards from there. Right. They reverse engineered it from there. Because like, yeah, when they showed up to one of the scientists' house, went backwards from there right they reverse engineered it from there because like yeah when they showed up to one of the scientists house who had those guys yeah they had access to the vault or something so they were like we're now a yodeling telegram and we'll say yodels to this guy to get his eyeball information it did seem like yeah like it was all a ploy to get them into different

revealing outfits with no consideration given to the culture they were. It did suck because it was like, that's the only way you can get this information? You can't like, Lucy was an astronaut. Cameron Diaz is a Jeopardy

genius. They're smart or at least that's how they're set up to be. We don't really see that. But the ways that they're getting information or advancing this story and their mission is truly deactivating men by their looks. Yes, it's appropriating other cultures in an extremely racist way most of the time, and or it is seduction yeah so the seduction thing yeah and i mean even the fact that like lucy lu i think is like written into that

massage parlor scene in the first place is very lazy and telling like it's a movie written by three white guys and it super shows they're like oh we have an asian girl perfect right right she can be a masseuse in one of these crazy parlors. Yeah, like, let's do the laziest thing we can think of, and then it's not good. It's not good. More on the seduction aspect of their, you know, attempts to get what they want. Where to begin? There's a lot.

It's everyone. Yes, it's all of them. And we have talked about this a lot on the podcast, where on one hand, if women can use their sexuality to get things that they want, particularly from straight men, great. Because for a long time, the way the world was set up, that was pretty much one of the only tools women had at their disposal to get results. Right. On the other hand, this movie had the opportunity to show women doing other things and using

other tactics besides their sexuality to get what they want, like their brains and their fighting skills and things like that. Their ability to fly into space. Right. Their super genius powers. Yeah. And we see a little bit of it throughout the movie but i was truly shocked by how often they use their sexuality to get what they want because it's which does seem like it

from what i know of it that's also like a staple of the tv show that this movie just elects to not update in any way right and possibly make worse Yeah, like that whole, it's bizarre because we are given like these kind of cool facts about these very underwritten characters. And then instead of ever finding out like, for example, why they work for Charlie, what qualifies them to work for Charlie? How did they get in touch with Charlie?

Where does Bill Murray fit into all of this? Like, what exactly are their job qualifications? And like, but they just derail the plot of the movie regularly to just show a series of dates that they're on. Like, every 20 minutes, you just see all three of them on a date. Yeah. It's like, why? It's also like, if they're working, they shouldn't have time for that.

Right. yeah he was like why it's also like if they're working they shouldn't have time for that right right i have time to be going on a date or making dinner for their man or whatever yes yeah like making dinner for matt leblanc between scenes you're like what the fuck yeah it's like that's the identity you chose this is our secret identity is being a a bikini waxer girlfriend to an actor. Actor. And she lives on set with him in a trailer. In a trailer. And she's a fucking genius. So, like, why? I'm glad you brought all this up because the movie, for some reason, sets aside time for all three of the angels to have a romantic storyline. I think I know the reason um well it might interest you to know

that when this movie was originally pitched apparently there were no romantic subplots but drew barrymore one of the producers of the film decided that she wanted to include love interests for all three of the angels um and that they were added so that the women watching this movie could live vicariously through these characters who were having it all. Oh, that's a bummer. You underestimated us, Drew. I can only understand these kick-ass women if they're having boy problems. I'm having boy problems, so if they're not having boy problems, who are they?

That's such a bummer. I mean, i would imagine drew feels differently these days that's always such a bummer to hear where you're like it wasn't even mcg right who insisted on like it's so easy to throw mcg under the bus now i'll play devil's advocate for just a moment in in that when we see female protagonists in movies with demanding jobs like the ones that the angels have we often see like their romantic and personal lives suffering as a result right so the fact that they do have like I'm not saying I'm for it but the fact that we see them on screen I guess having it all but like it bugged me yes but I was also like okay it's 2000

yeah well that's I get what you're saying and also it is also nice to see that it's not interfering with their work because I know other than like the Sam Rockwell relationship thing but that they were still able to have a personal life. Right. And be really good at their jobs at the same time. Yes. The fact that it is three hetero romances that, for the most part, don't have anything to do with the main storyline, except for the Sam Rockwell, Drew Barrymore one. Yes, it's perhaps not the best writing. Guys, it's really bad writing.

I was like, no, hold on. This is very poorly written. I wouldn't be as annoyed at the constant derailing to go see Matt LeBlanc on yet another date with his girlfriend he knows nothing about if we knew anything about Lucy Liu's character. Like, it's just you don't know anything about it. And then it's so like, so lazy where it's like, yeah, technically we see them do stuff, but it's like in montage where you're like,

oh, I guess Cameron Diaz knows how to clone people. Oh, I thought she was just on Jeopardy, but I guess she knows how to clone people. And they're just, oh yeah, she clones a hand or something or like 3D printers a hand.

She 3D prints a man's hand. Four 3D printers were even invented. Right. She's, again, ahead of the curve. And then it's just like cut to a scene of her being like, how do I call Luke Wilson? You're like, come on, man. I was so like, there's so much time used to see like is she gonna fuck this waiter like yeah their choices in men are also like i mean tom green yeah especially i mean that's what

i mean again maybe he's a nice person i was like maybe he's a great guy i don't know he won an award for this movie but it was for worst person in a movie that's very funny well it was bad it was clearly like oh they're fucking so that's why he's in this movie no they met on set they didn't even yeah oh i thought he was in the movie like as a favor like she was like we can't do this without my boyfriend i thought it was like how carson and tara did like like how carson daly's and josie and the Pussycat. Oh, sure. I thought it was like that.

No, it's, they met on this set. Oh, but then why was that scene even there? He was so weird. I don't know. It was so long. It was so long. I guess they were like, he's a comedian, let him improvise. But it was like, he just fell into the water.

Yeah, he just. And then when he comes back, I was like, I was extremely enraged when he came back. I was like, how dare this? And then it's implied like, they're going to end up together. You're like, boat guy? She's going to end up with this guy? Oh, okay. Like, I found the romantic subplots to be like very frustrating

because there's like the ingredients to so much cool stuff. And it's just constantly just distraction from the movie it's hard enough to understand what's going on and then i was like is luke wilson involved no he's just taking up room in this he takes her to a soul train show where there's another weird racially charged scene yeah where cameron diaz is dancing to Baby Got Back. The rest of the crowd is predominantly black and they're just like all staring at her being like, what the fuck is this white girl doing? And then they like for no reason at all

start to like get on board with what she's doing. And then she like wins the crowd over and it's like, what are you trying to say with this? What's happening? No, I get it. It's white women can end racism by shaking their ass yes that's correct the message we can all be brought together the enthusiasm of a of a blonde white woman ah there's i'm like who insisted on that scene being there I just yeah that was so unnecessary they kind of got into dinner yeah that well this is like all the dates except for the Sam Rockwell dates nothing there's no well that's I guess a payoff of a scene that's planted earlier where Cameron

Diaz has a dream that she's like dancing oh yeah so she loves to dance and then she wakes up and she okay so there's many just a reason to have cameron diaz without pants at the beginning oh absolutely none of it is justified and it's all horribly written but this is the movie's justification of why it's in but yeah i mean i think that speaks a lot to again these these characters being so underwritten because we the things we do know about them are like usually told in montage like you mentioned and or they're just inconsistent and weird and don't pay off in any meaningful way i still don't have a grasp on like what each of their specialty is

like i also think they're no cameron diaz seems to be the one who drives. If there's a driving thing, she's the driver. And she flips? She flips. But then she also sometimes does some tech photo enhancement stuff. Yeah, she's a computer enhance. But Lucy Liu also does a bunch of that too. And then she also does some bomb wires.

She's really good at wires. That almost made sense to me because I'm like oh because space technology. Because space. Because she's an astronaut. Engineering things could be. Space and horses.

That's what we know about Lucy Liu. Oh also back to the Lucy Liu and Matt LeBlanc relationship. Even Matt LeBlanc didn't want to know more information about her. No. Because when she was like, look, I'm not who I say I am. I'm not actually a bikini waxer. And he's like, oh, bummer.

Right. I thought that was pretty hot. And then she's like, now I have to go. Right. And then there's no follow-up questions. He's not like, where are you going? He's just like, oh, I guess you're going to Charlie. So it's also like he knew about Charlie the whole time, but didn't know who he was.

Did he think Charlie was managing the bikini? She's like, important bikini wax business. I got to go meet up with Charlie. And he's like, okay. He also gets weirdly threatened at the beginning. He's like, Charlie, that's a chick, right? That's a chick. And then she's like, I don't know.

You're like, what? This is not a good relationship for either of you this is bad there there's just so much and like lucy lou like she like negs herself in the first like it just the way they're written is bananas like the the she negs herself in the opening scene because she accidentally slips up and says something smart in front of matt leblanc he's like how'd you know that and she's like it's crazy what you can learn on the internet and then it's not like i'm smart or have any information about my backstory at all and he's relieved by that the reveal and he's like okay cool kiss kiss oh can i okay these are i'm just my notes are chaotic for this one the like the movie

the the scene where okay so this is a scene with sam rockwell and not crispin glover maybe okay i'll let you know it's the it's the date that dylan goes on where they talk about her daddy issues that is sam okay that makes sense so that was um so what happens in this scene it's one of the date scenes but the twist is it has bearing on the plot um what happens is they're like on a date and then he asks her shockingly a little about herself and she says well my mom died when i was young i never met my dad and then he immediately was like oh so that's probably why you work for an old man that you've never seen which is so aggressive and she doesn't and she doesn't respond to that she doesn't react to it yeah at all and then he knocks over a scrabble board and she's like wow this guy's cool then she tries to leave

she's like i have to go i have to go work for my like he just is like oh daddy issues awesome let's hook up like he he confirms she has daddy issues and then is like cool clear for landing for sam rockwell yeah but then she has to go and then he kind of like baby it's cold outside to her and it's like wait what about the shake and bake shake and bake product placement. God knows how much money they spent on that. I hope that like, because he's like, oh, we got to make the shake and bake. And then she's like, what if we just did shake? But don't forget, he suggests that she is the one who does the baking because women be baking. They had to get every everything in in this yeah it was so i

wonder if shake and bake had to like pay more because they end up fucking as a result of the product like this this product will make you fuck that's a really good commercial oh we gotta take a quick break, but we'll be back for more discussion. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017

was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120.

She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything?

You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I felt too seen.

Um, dragged. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies.

On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case listen to basket case every tuesday on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hi charlie speaking of charlie just a little bit more about him the angel's relationship with Charlie, like they've never met him. He's always watching them. It's a plus.

And yeah, it's like this weird voyeuristic God-like, like I'm going to control you. You're never allowed to meet me. We can only communicate through this other man who's a liaison between us. Who will also treat you weird. Yes. Who will treat you, because they're all cuddling in that first yes they're like on his shoulder like he's like ladies pawing on them putting his hands on their knees and stuff like that workplace also not a good look for bill murray who already has um i mean just look up his domestic abuse record oh no, no. I'm not a fan. I also just think he should not go to people's weddings.

He's a fucking weirdo. But that's just me. You weren't invited. Don't go. My favorite thing. But he's making it better. What a fun story. Like disruptive.

Get out. Get out. I paid a lot of money for each guest to be here. Can you imagine? I'd be like, this is my day. Yeah. And then Bill Murray shows up. How fucking dare you?

I'm the Bill Murray of my wedding. But anyway, these characters are written to be obsessed with Charlie. Like, they're in what, the dynamic of this relationship, it feels like vaguely gaslighty, borderline. I don't know. Something was very weird about this dynamic but they're like we love you charlie you're the best charlie's like you don't even know him that's one of the qualifications that why they were chosen they all have daddy issues but we only learn about drews it's so the daddy issues like it's so annoying and i've like but the

the thing that i think makes me like that was the like weirdest or felt the weirdest is like yes charlie is like this old mysterious guy who's addicted to controlling young hot women he has framed photos of them in his home feeling very safe about all of this but the fact that they don't question it at all yeah and they like just don't like they don't they're just horny they're just like a low simmering horny for the predicament it seems like of like i i don't know which i know is a carryover from the 70s but it's just i don't know anytime they're like well that's what the show is like it's like well but why well that's an adaptation you can like do stuff well that show was damaging and uh yeah

you can update stuff yeah the show was was i think often criticized for being jiggle tv which was basically just emphasizing the sex appeal of the female leads which is like a reason for them to like run and their tits fly all over the place. It's like, yeah, Baywatch is a later version of it. Which is not an issue that's corrected in this movie. Not at all. There's like, I mean,

in the weird Soul Train scene, there's a ton of slow-mo Cameron Diaz. I made a list of all of the extremely unnecessary, usually male gaze shots. In the beginning, we already talked about this a little bit, but Lucy Liu taking off her helmet and whipping her hair around in slow motion. And then another completely random and unnecessary shot a few moments later where she takes off a fencing helmet in one of the flashbacks and whips her hair around again and then later she tells cameron diaz to do it she's like whip your goddamn hair which is another time

they interrupt the scene to flirt yeah it's so annoying like willson get your own mission out you're at work um this one we already touched on as well, but Cameron Diaz dancing around in her underwear in her house and then opening up the door for a package delivery in her underwear. Chaotic stupid. Yeah. And then saying, you can feel free to stick things in my slot. And that's supposed to be, you know, a hilarious joke. Oh, and then she runs into her own door. Yes. hilarious joke oh and then she runs into her own door yes she lives in that house and is unaware of

the the where her house is in relation to where she's standing yes spatial awareness goes all out the door because of this ups man which would uh make her probably a bad spy fighter person but she's really good at it so i don't know flip do backflips and not touch the floor for 2.5 seconds or whatever it is and go into that vault why is she why can't she walk into her house with ease right it's just they try to get especially cameron diaz naked as much as possible as early as possible oh yeah oh yeah yes although there's that scene where like drew barrymore is like needlessly naked as she's like dangling from oh yeah she's yeah and then she like walks into that house with those little boys i hate scenes like that

where they're like oh now the kids are horny too interesting you're like no i don't i think it's also like still people are like little boys seeing adult women bodies is funny and not traumatic they're like oh that's like a hilarious boys would love that as opposed to like this is actually maybe going to affect them when they're older yeah oh good grief um here's a few more on my list uh jiggle tv yeah jiggle tv baby um the shot of lucy lou's ass as she crawls over drew in the car to fix the intercom at the drive-thru yeah there's a shot of lucy lou's ass again in a leather skirt the sound effect on that is sick oh yeah it was. She's like squirt. I was like, this isn't even like achieving the intended effect.

Which so that brings me to the list of all the times where the angels use seduction as a technique to get what they want. Which, again, I feel it's every second. Far too often in this movie. And it's always like immediately after they've just done something that you're like oh that was pretty cool like it was right after that huge fight scene where you're like wow this is awesome and then it's a dating seduction montage right right right because there's a one where lucy lu pretends to be an efficiency expert uh she's dressed as a dominatrix essentially with a whip with a whip yeah and then she comes in and smacks her whip around and it makes all the

computer programmer dudes all horny. And then she like plays kind of a ditz at the end of that scene where she's like, can anyone like show me what you're talking about?

And they're like, boing, boing, boing, boing. Yeah. Right. And then that leaves Drew and Cameron who are dressed as men in this scene which like that worked for me okay yeah but then they uh then that's when cameron diaz um you know gets disrobes

completely yeah right and you know flips around in the vault which is also funny because they're like she needs to be invisible and she puts on this white suit with but you can still see her eyes and her like the flesh on her face and she eyes the camera looks directly in the camera the one part of skin that is on her that you can see look puts that right in the lens of the camera and it's like hi guys that just keeps going like that defeats the whole purpose of what you were doing so whoever's watching is gonna be like like, I see floating eyes, I guess. And then the vault opened by itself. We should probably investigate this. So bizarre.

And then there's the scene where Drew Barrymore's character distracts the man who's in Corwin's car while Lucy breaks into the trunk. But Drew Barrymore's like. But she's in a fully unzipped race car suit, and she's like, oh my god. It's so hot. I'm like, what? You went to police academy or something. I don't know. And she also licked the steering wheel, which is so nasty.

She sure did. Because that's like so many hand germs. He's probably not the only driver of that car probably not didn't seem like a clean man i don't know i just licked the steering wheel i was like bye bye so weird and yeah and then the costuming also so like they are private investigator detective spot i don't even know what their role is exactly yeah but they're doing a lot of like covert operations they are like fighting and flipping around a lot and yet they're in outfits most of the time where almost their entire chest is exposed and it's like

if you do one flip your tits are out they're right flown out which they would have if they could have right yeah even when they were like scuba diving where they were like swimming up to whatever that island was where sam rockwell had bosley like cameron diaz's scuba gear was like open to her mom's pubis like it was so open i was like how did it keep you that seems inefficient same thing when she's undercover as a waitress and every other like every other person working there is wearing a normal outfit and she's got again all the way like down and yeah and then she's like haha like i'm really blending in but you're not you look

foolish oh yeah i mean like if you want to expose your skin, embrace your sexuality, beautiful. We're all for that. But to do that when you're also trying to like accomplish a covert spy mission and you're fighting a bunch and your boobs are going to get in the way doesn't track. I just want to see an action movie where whatever woman is in charge is like, oh, I'm about to fight. Let me get my ponytail holder out. Put my hair back. Right, right. Get it out of my face because that's not going to take these heels off because that's not going to make me run faster.

Right. I'm going to zip up my clothes. Button up my shirt. Yeah, let me get in fight mode as opposed to like, let me be the sexiest thing ever and then get to it. Yeah, 25 second hair whipping sequence. Just exhausting. was there more um i think we've already covered everything else in terms of the like male gaze seduction there was there was one line that drew barrymore says when she it's when sam rockwell first betrays her which is also a very funny scene to me because I think that maybe at some point in the production or writing process, they realized that maybe the movie was really confusing.

Because there's that whole shot where the camera is circling Drew Barrymore and she's basically like explaining what has happened for the past 20 minutes. She's like, so that person wasn't who I thought it was, was it? And Sam Rockwell's like, no. And she's like, and I guess that other person wasn't who I thought they was, was it? And Sam Rockwell's like, no. And she's like, and I guess that other person wasn't who I thought they were. And he's like, no. And she's like, and then I would deduce that you are also not who I thought you were.

And he's like, no. Like the camera makes like three full revolutions around her. But in that scene, she is on a quote unquotequote date with him but then she like makes this bizarre joke about she's like well i'm a full service per like implying that anytime she's a spy she's also having sex with the people she's spying on right it was a weird joke yeah oh can we talk about vivian yes yeah i have mixed feelings on vivian i on hand, was kind of expecting Vivian to just kind of be left there to just kind of not do anything. I like that she at least turned out to be relevant to the plot. But she is also, I mean, the seduction trope is alive and well.

She also roofies Bill Murray. Yeah. Which is very villainous yeah yeah i don't know it was i'm still i think i'm just like still confused i'm like i don't know exactly what she wanted but i'm glad she turned out to be important yeah her motivations were not clear but depending on the circumstances i usually appreciate a female villain. You know, her character was not necessarily well developed. But nor was anyone. Nor was anyone.

She wasn't singled out by any means. She was Sam's business partner and also lover or girlfriend or wife. Something like that. He kept being like my lady or my girl in reference to vivian define the relationship what is the relationship and then he kissed her on the neck but then she also fully let him fuck somebody else yes so they're both by any means necessary sure and we don't yeah they chose not to define it for the movie and maybe it doesn't need a definition yeah maybe that's we're just being normal do you think then maybe so this is me kind of thinking through this in real time but do you

think drew barrymore's character is sort of like subtly or like inadvertently slut shamed because she does have sex with a villain and then that puts her in a position where she's like oops i didn't notice that he was the bad guy because i was too busy like sucking his dick or something the villains definitely slut shame her they're like you silly girl i knew this would happen of course you and he's just like yeah at least you were a good lay now i'm gonna kill your friends and your daddy and yeah i still don't understand how drew barrymore didn't die when he shot her in the head, but whatever, I guess. Well, it wasn't in the head. They reversed and went to slow-mo. She fell backwards, and then the bullet missed her head, hit the window behind her.

And then she was just falling. And then she got naked. For the children. She got naked for the children, yes. Okay. It did look like it hit her in the head. That's what we're supposed to think, but she choreographed it so that

she, because she wanted them to think that she was hit by the bullet. This movie's so complex. Yeah. But she was orchestrating this whole thing. But in that, I think that, like, kind of, the villain's definitely slut-shamer, but it seems like kind of like the story does too because they make her out to be like oh she's like the more sexually open i don't know how to like correctly phrase it but yeah like they make her out to be silly for being sexually active and then they punish her in the

story like for having sex right the direct consequence of her having sex is that she almost gets shot in the head yeah and all of her friends almost die yeah she does like well she is she does get to redeem herself though she does yes so yeah i don't know i think the movie doesn't really know how uh it feels about it but then she she also it's implied that she has sex with tom green at the beginning of the movie oh yeah she wakes up on his boat yes so i don't know even me why are they why do they talk why do they have a conversation how do you get that vote i don't know i don't know but um i guess i i like that yeah i suppose that she is framed as being as having multiple sexual partners. And the movie, I think, punishes her to some degree.

But like at least her friends aren't like, you silly slut. Look what you got us into or anything like that. That's true. So they're all actively encouraging each other to have as much sex as possible it seems like like stop what you're doing keep flirting stop them i know we're in the middle of a mission right now but go and try to fuck luke wilson yeah and she's like i'm nervous she's like and lucy lou's like fuck him now you're like flip your hair suck his dick now do it now Oh, what a strange movie this is. I do want to bring to everyone's attention that Lucy Liu was paid millions less than her white co-stars for both movies. I don't know the exact numbers for the first movie, but for the sequel, Full Threron diaz was paid 20 million dollars lucy

lou paid only four million damn yes i didn't know it was that steep yes oh that's so sad and if you're putting performances next to performances i mean cameron diaz is terrible luc Lucy Liu is amazing. Yeah. Ugh. That sucks. So there's some, you know, standard Hollywood racism for you. Yeah. In addition to the very weird ways in which this narrative handles race. Also behind the scenes, it's also handled horribly. Oh, Jesus Christ. There's that i well i guess i wanted to before we before we

wrap up uh i guess i just wanted to take the tamp of like is it necessary to i mean i'm i'm in the grand sense i'm like cool elizabeth thanks is directing a movie it's got a diverse cast. Like that's exciting. That's cool. But what do we want this again? Is there a way I guess it's just this seems like one of the franchises and I feel like like most reboots where they're like, I know that women were done a wild disservice by this franchise multiple times, but we're gonna give it another shot. I can't think of an example of that ever going particularly well, and I don't know. I think it's just like it's frustrating. I wonder if studios and da biz are afraid people won't see

female-led action movies if it's not already a thing we are familiar with like if it's not already attached to a superhero franchise or a reboot of something i mean some things have done really well but like the things that i'm thinking like recently are like wonder woman captain marvel um like these are things that are already attached to other things the female ghostbusters yeah exactly so it's like if it's a thing that's like its own thing, like the Charlize Theron one that came out. What was it called again? Aeon Flux.

That one? No, no, no. This was the more recent one. Yeah, where she's like fighting everybody and she has like platinum blonde hair. That movie looked really cool. Atomic Blonde. Atomic Blonde, yes. Which I watched and is also very confusing, but action is fucking killer. It is. Great. yes. Which I watched and is also very confusing. But the action is fucking killer.

It is. It's great. But I don't know if it did that well. I don't think it did. And that's like Charlize Theron and her peak, you know? And so I feel like there are probably people who are like, I mean, we could try, but we wouldn't make money. People will see a remake. Yes.

Here's my theory on all of this. And this is something, a trend that we've noticed on the podcast is that the trajectory usually goes from there being no representation to an attempt at representation, which is usually bad and not nuanced at all. And then as years progress, more nuanced representation i think the same thing applies to just like stories overall where like for the longest time women didn't get to be at the helm of action franchises right and then they did get to be there uncanny valley like this movie yeah or like tomb raider which we talked about and when which is like egregious you know same

era sexualized woman the movie um and then white girl the movie right uh and then down the road we are getting slash we'll probably get more nuanced like original action franchises starring women so i think we're still in the stage of like we're not used to blonde women are allowed to direct now is what i've taken away from recent years is now it's like we can have several blonde directors working at any given time as long as they were already famous yeah when they direct and and eventually brunettes then we'll have people of color. I hate that that probably tracks. It is weird. I hope the movie is good.

I'm glad it exists. It does already, though. It strikes me as feeling like a weird, like a couple years from now, people will be like, oh, yeah, I guess that that was just like a little shove in the right direction but i hope that there is a you know i feel like it just like is going to take one of those out of nowhere breakout movies that is like oh you can tell an original story starring a diverse cast of women that isn't like it's like movies that are rebooted like this feels so genetically engineered to do well that they kind of just even when the people uh in front and in back of the camera are very talented it just feels like it feels like a science experiment it does yeah but i think we need a few of those that are going

to be box office hits to show mr hollywood that yes people will go to Mr. Charlie Charlie himself can we make a movie like I don't know how did the reboot to show that like women female-led action franchises can be box office successes that women can direct those and still be box office successes so we're still in this stage of like we on the Bechtel cast are like yes we're we're you know let's move on but I think the general movie going population isn't quite there yeah I know I mean even the fact that we that it's like we have to explain like this math problem about like when are we going to have a really good movie like is like well it doesn't seem likely we'll have a very good movie for at least 10 years because men aren't ready and they're like oh I mean yeah I I don't know it is I feel weirdly like weary of it but I also yeah but also

just for the sake of a good movie I want to see someday I hope it does well yeah same and I think it'll be far more feminist than what you would think would be more of a feminist text in this 2000 Charlie's Angels sure it is still quite regressive as we have pointed out for many reasons but there are some like moments of like 2000s feminism oh i got some catchphrases written down the movie such as there's wait can i oh yes please never send a man to do a woman's job yes vivian wood says that yeah you're like whoa there's a moment at the beginning where drew barrymore is like well if he is threatened by a strong woman then you shouldn't be with him and then they talk for another five minutes about like, but how could I be with him?

How can I make this work? Those were the two that I had. Plus, Lucy Liu talking to Tim Curry being like, my hands aren't going anywhere near your staff. And then she also keeps rejecting this man at corwin's party being like no no no yeah and it's like we're supposed to be like woo feminist icon and then you have one of those weird flippy moments where uh vivian when she's hitting on bill murray whose character i other than the weird like my girls they're like vibe you get at the top where you're just like but his character was generally like pretty chill but like it was in fact i would call him mostly a doofus yeah like he was more like he

wasn't like a lecherous character but then when vivian comes in she's like she kind of comes in like fuck consent like she just like calm like and then he's like i don't know about this we're co-workers and she's like fuck you and you're like whoa but he's like, I don't know about this. We're coworkers. And she's like, fuck you. And you're like, whoa. He also like doesn't tell her to leave. He like starts a fire and pours wine. It's like, we shouldn't be doing this. But do you want wine by the fire?

Yeah. That's like so much of this era of movies. It's constantly, it's just like the way people interact is so uncanny valley and not, I mean, it's a movie, but it's also like there's no criticism put on the guys that are like constantly ogling Charlie's Angels because they're framed of like assuming that a woman's sexuality is some sort of plot against them. This movie plays to those stereotypes. Oh, yeah. Hard. Yeah. They're like, well, if she seems attracted to you, she's going to kill you.

Like she's going to ruin your life. She's going to steal your money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Nick G. Nick G. Am I right yeah this is all to say that I think this 2019 reboot of

Charlie's Angels is coming out just based on the more diverse cast alone I think will hopefully be a more like inclusive intersectional text than what we've seen so far yeah yeah it seems like it will be it seems like that's like a priority which is great yes because i think a lot of people will see it i think it'll you know do my guess is that it'll do fairly well at the box office i hope so here's hoping we'll go i'll go i'll see it twice um but yeah those were all my thoughts does anyone have any other final thoughts about the movie oh did you know they were in a band the angels during the credits oh yes they were all playing in a band together and we don't know why they just were dressed like Green Day maybe?

And, oh yeah, what song did they? I honestly shut it off the second the movie ended. I didn't know what happened during the credits. Yeah, I got some Josie and the Pussycats vibes though from some prototypical, because that was after, right? Yeah, that was 2001. Oh, well, but the, I mean, the comic book, who knows what came first? We'll never find out. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're in a band, well, but the, I mean, the comic book. Who knows what came first? We'll never find out.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're in a band, so good for them. Good for them. Women in rock and roll. We need to see more of it. And then finally. Yes. Does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

Yes. It does. Yeah. I forgot to pay as close of attention as I should have because we've been on a break. I forgot how to do my job attention as I should have because we've been on a break. I forgot how to do my job. We forgot how to feminism. It's hard. It's been out here being very toxic for the last month.

I mean, women definitely talk to each other a lot. I got a few different. I mean, there's a lot of two to three line exchanges between the three angels. And usually it will divert pretty quickly there's not full scenes my favorite one is the scene between melissa mccarthy and lucy lou yes melissa mccarthy's in this movie yes she's done a huge disservice because it's 2000 and she is playing the only female employee at the place where lucy lou is pretending to be a dominatrix for reasons I couldn't tell you um and she you know Lucy Liu walks in and Melissa McCarthy gets a name her name's Doris yes right

she's like yeah I have that name you know I was like I I have the one female co-worker name and she's like hi I'm Doris I'm so excited that you're here and Lucy Liu's like fuck you go to hell like this is I'm not quoting it but I'm only interested talking to the men right and then and then Melissa McCarthy's left in the dust and she like calls after like you bitch and the whole exchange passes good because Lucy Liu's like I heard that and she likes it she liked that she called her a bitch she's like i was planning on being energized she was being dominatrix she was just being domed so it does pass not as much as it should yeah but it does pass also a lot of the conversations are them talking about men but as it relates to like their job and the mission so like it's not men in a romantic context. It's it just happens to be about men, but they're actually talking about the mission.

So I don't know. Except for when they're talking about dating for 10 to 15 minutes. Which does happen a lot. Yes. But there are times. Yeah. Where it's like they're technically they're talking about work, but their work always pertains to the men. Which, by the way, the men in this movie are either villains or Bosley, who is

a doofus and doesn't seem to be very competent at really anything, except for chewing some weird object into the shape of a gun. What was that? Or a crystal? That was confusing. It was very confusing. I was like, as long as that was confusing

to everybody. Yeah, he just chewed a gun out of a rock or something and then never used it never came back okay the only other man is uh off screen we never see him we only hear his voice except for the back of his head at the end so yeah i guess the men are generally the enemies in this film. Yeah, to the point where... And it's true that we can do what we do to women, to men, in this movie. True. Yeah, that's true. So, yes to the Bechdel test, but the nipple scale...

This is actually kind of challenging. I know. So, zero to five nipples is our scale. We rate it based on its representation of women so taking into account everything that we've discussed uh including the bizarre and upsetting and offensive ways in which this movie handles things like race and you know cultural appropriation um the excessive use of male gaze cinematography, the underwritten female characters, the far too much emphasis on the romantic relationships. Also, just in terms of the three main characters, there's just absolutely no diversity in terms of body shape and size. They are all extremely thin, conventionally attractive women.

And, you know, it'd be nice to see more inclusion in terms of body size and shape. Any kind of body diversity. And especially the early 2000s is such a particularly brutal time for policing women's bodies in this way. Which just makes it all the more frustrating that this movie didn't do anything to separate that for sure i would say this only gets like one and a half nipples like great that it is like a female driven action franchise it was a box office hit 93 million budget and a 263 million oh wow it was very successful okay so people saw it and while it is not necessarily an inclusive and progressive feminist text it is i know i know hear me out i suppose it was a stepping stone for stuff to come later. So I'm going to give it one and a half nipples

and I'll give one half to each of my gals. Actually, no, I'm going to give all one and a half to Lucy Liu, who was drastically underpaid. I had no idea it was by that much. That's absurd. Yeah. I'm going to go one i think i i it's like it's a fun movie but i wouldn't never recommend it to anyone no not even as

really a hate watch it is like very of its time i respect that it you know just a female-led project doing well at the box office even if it was written directed and everything else besides two female producers has everything to do with men male gays and horny girls I love horny girls but not when they're written by men I just don't so yeah I don't know and and for all the reasons you're describing I I can give it one. Fun romp. Hate Bill Murray. And, you know, McG. I checked in on McG.

I texted him. But I checked in to see what he's up to, and he just produced Tall Girl on Netflix. Okay. So still into female-led things. Right. I'm just like, maybe I would hope that the men who are responsible for writing and directing this movie have since tried to move on and it seems like that is sort of the case i want to give people room for growth mcg is now producing tall girl haven't seen it i'm tall i'm interested

sure john august wrote the uh al Aladdin reboot that came out this year. And I think he tried to write a song about women in it, right? He was like, I should have a job. Like that was the song? Yeah, Jasmine is given some political aspirations in that movie and a female friend. Okay. So, you know, everyone's, we're all, but it gets one nipple. Yeah.

Obviously. And it goes to Lucy Liu. I guess I'd say, I'm going to give it a whole two. I'm going to give it one nipple. Yeah. Obviously. And it goes to Lucy Liu. I guess I'd say I'm going to give it a whole two. I'm going to give it two nipples because they tried.

You know? They did try. They worked with the tools they were given in the year 2000. Yes. They didn't know better. It's true.

And also it was really cool seeing women kick ass. I did think the action scenes were really fun. I did have fun watching the movie. There were a lot of points where I was eye rolling because I was like, oh, God, this is nuts. But also, when it came out, I don't think I felt that way. I don't think any of us did.

We just did no better. I like harness action is what I've learned. I really like it. It's cool. But, yeah, I think it is a nudge in the right direction in that hopefully there were a bunch of girls who saw that when they were young and were like, cool,

maybe I could be an astronaut who rides horses and disarms bombs and also dates. It does kind of sound like... She can have it all. It does sound like asking a little girl, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? She's like, I want to be an astronaut, but also a horseback rider and also this. And they sound like asking a little girl, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? She's like, I want to be an astronaut, but also a horseback rider.

And also this. And they're like, we'll take it. You got it. Oh, so Shira, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Where can people find you online? And what would you like to plug? My Instagram and my Twitter handles are at the Sheerruth, T-H-E, sheertruth.

And I have a podcast called Best Friends with my best friend, Nicole Byer. And we do live shows sometimes. And you can find that on our Twitters as well when we have them. And I'm in a movie called The Weekend. It's on Amazon and iTunes right now and on demand. And it's a fun rom-com that I'm in a movie called The Weekend. It's on Amazon and iTunes right now and on demand. And it's a fun rom-com that I'm pretty sure passes the Bechdel test.

I didn't check, but I'm pretty sure it does. I bet it does. And, yeah, that's it. Awesome. Thanks again. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yay.

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