The Bechdel Cast - Cruel Intentions with Jackie Johnson

Episode Date: November 1, 2018

Caitlin and Jamie are nice and they had nothing but nice intentions when they invited special guest Jackie Johnson to discuss Cruel Intentions.(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @Jackie_Michele on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that?

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The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name's Jamie Loftus. And my name's Caitlin Durante. And this is our podcast about the portrayal of women in movies. You betcha. We talk about... You betcha. Oh yeah, you betcha. Hey, quick plug You betcha. Oh, yeah. You betcha. Hey, quick plug at the top of the show.

What? I know. So not like us. Crazy. But we have an important announcement that you may or may not already know about, but we're doing a bunch of live shows coming up. Yeah, get used to it. And here's the twist.

It's on both coasts. Both coasts. Yeah. Yes. Here's the twist. It's on both coasts. Both coasts. Yeah. We've got our East Coast, our three-day super tour coming up on the East Coast starting Saturday, November 3rd in Philadelphia at Good Good Comedy Theater, which, by the way, is run by past guest of the show, Kate Bamford. Yes, it is. We're covering Waiting to Exhale with guest Aaron Wack at that show.

And then on Sunday, November 4th, we're doing a show in Washington, D.C. Surprise, we're doing two shows, but one of them already sold out. So what's the point of even plugging that one? But there are still tickets left for the show that's on Sunday, November 4th at 3.30 p.m., an afternoon show. An afternoon soiree?

Bring me a Mike's, baby. That one's at the draft house comedy theater in washington dc and we're going to be covering the nightmare before christmas with guest natalie mcgill and finally monday november 5th in new york city as part of the new york comedy festival we are covering the princess diaries with marcia belsky at babies all right so we're stoked for that too oh yes yes. So for tickets and more details you can go to our website BechdelCast.com

click on the live appearances tab and everything you need to know will be there. See you there. See you there. Oh and then also the other coast the West Coast. Oh yeah. Okay so we also have a show on Saturday November 10th in Los Angeles at the Ruby,

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We'd love to see you. All right. Kiss me a mike's hard lemonade so we talk about the portrayal of women in movies we use the bechdel test to just give us a jumping off point. The Bechdel test for us is a test that you apply to movies. It requires that there are two female identifying characters with names. They have to speak to each other and their conversation cannot be about men. Boo. Boo. Sounds like a real boring movie. I know.

Women should not talk. And if they do talk, they better be talking about men. Should we demo it really quick? Let's demo it. Okay. Caitlin. Hey, Jamie. How was your soccer game yesterday?

My soccer game went well. We won. Awesome. I know. I can't wait to go again. I'm a fan. Thank you so much. I'm a fan of the team.

And also, the one time I went, someone got really injured. Very badly injured. So really a lot of juicy stuff at the soccer game. Speaking of injuries that happen toward the end of something, today's movie. So we're talking about cruel intentions. And here to join us in the conversation, we have host of the Makeup and Beauty podcast, Natch Butte, Jackie Johnson. Hi. Hi.

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to discuss a movie that I'm embarrassed to say used to be a really important movie to me as a kid. Yeah. I thought it was so good and funny. Don't be embarrassed. This is truly the story of this podcast. I mean, I'm ashamed.

Rewatching this, I was just shaking my, what do the kids say? Shake my damn head. I was shaking my damn head. I couldn't believe this movie. I cannot wait to discuss it with y'all. So Jackie, what's your history with this movie? I saw this movie in theaters. I do believe my

mom bought tickets for me and I want to say my best friend Lauren Marty because my mom's like cool like that wow kind of like the cool mom shut up mom yeah so you know very open parenting style because I wanted to see Pacey aka Joshua Jackson I saw him on like MTV news like Kurt Loder was like hey what's up there's a new movie out you know Joshua Jackson star on the rise got this little part and I said uh i'm seeing that one please so i went and saw it i loved it i thought it was hysterical i loved the music i loved all the hot actors in it i mean i ate this movie up with a spoon i quoted it all throughout my youth i still unfortunately have it memorized because uh long-term memory it sticks it sticks with jaggy jay

so um i but i hadn't re-watched it in a while and can i just say that this movie is very problematic now in many ways and we're gonna get into it but damn i'm just i'm telling you this is what women are shown of course we all have issues of course we all have problems and the patriarchy taking us down i mean this movie is complete garbage in terms of women and treatment and the me too movement and just god i'm ashamed of everyone involved including me i think although i will say soundtrack on fleek soundtrack on fleek i mean in like the placebo song opening it up colorblind you know coffee and tv by blur love me by the cardigans i mean damn the music is on point but everything else it's upsetting thumbs down that's gonna be my new favorite thing whenever something completely

baffling happens plot wise out of nowhere in a movie, I'm just going to be like, do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. The way it ends is so psycho. My history with this movie is, just for all you Bechtelheads out there, Caitlin and Sammy and I hung out after the live show the other night, the Edward Scissorhands show, and watched Cruel Intentions and Ate Chicken Wings.

And boy, that was my first time seeing it. I can't believe y'all didn't see it. Yeah, I don't know how I missed it. Had you not seen it? I hadn't seen it. Oh, yeah. Well, I saw it like two days before our screening. It's so weird so it was a

huge i mean among my circle of friends and my culture like growing up in like the late 90s early 2000s in dallas suburbial dallas this movie was huge we all quoted it we watched it i mean i remember like let's all watch dvd's and like we'd pop and crawl intentions and have a laugh so the fact that y'all hadn't seen this I'm a little sure over that I think we're the weird ones though I think most people have seen this for sure I don't know how I missed it either because in 99 I was

13 like I was the age you were prime demo because I think I was like 14 yeah yeah 99 is the year of teens lying to each other and making bets to have sex with other teens because this is the year that cruel intentions comes out that 10 things i hate about you comes out that she's all that comes out so it's just like god what a time to be alive i know

it honestly a beautiful time what a beautiful time i mean looking back there were some damn issues but i loved that era being a kid of that era was such a perfect time i mean looking back there were some damn issues but i loved that era being a kid of that era was such a perfect time to me it was fun music in 99 damn the fashion there is so so much about yeah blink 182 was thriving it was a simpler time the movies though were insanely problematic and uh influenced our young brains. A hundred percent. For the worst. A hundred percent. But yeah, somehow I missed Cruel Intentions.

Didn't see it until last week. And this is, I think, the most insane movie we've covered on the podcast. Where it's like it gets so problematic that I just grew numb and was just enjoying the ride. Because I was just like, this movie is a string of really pithy sexual assaults. Oh, 100%. The whole movie is like, quip, quip, and now I'm coercing someone into sex who doesn't actually want it. I mean, Sebastian is a fuckboy to a T. If you Google fuckboy, he'll come up.

Yeah. You know, with that ramen noodle JT hair. I mean, he's- The tips. The brushy tips. with that ramen noodle JT hair. I mean, he, he, I, this movie triggered me in so many ways. And let's talk about it. Cause damn it.

I'm fired up. Yeah. Let's do it. Monday morning. I'm fired up. Damn it. The one moment in this movie that really absolutely destroyed me is because a lot of the scenes that are supposed to be sexy in this movie are not sexy at all. They're completely like, or for me

anyways there's that one scene where sarah michelle geller is supposed to be like teasing ryan flippy yeah which is i love that i'm just gonna say his name like that yeah my mom thinks ryan philippe's name was pronounced flippy like f-l-i-p-p-Y. Low-rung. So Sarah Michelle Gellar is teasing, quote unquote, Ryan Phillippe. And she's like laying on him sunny side up and just sort of like moving her body around on him like a limp noodle. And then he's like looking almost to camera with this like very disturbing erection face. And it was the least sexy thing i've ever seen it's like this sunny side up gyration and his hands on her body were like so in like you could see the pressure he was putting on her but like palming her like he wasn't groping her or even like softly caressing

her it was like a wet fish just like slapping against her arm it felt bad for both of them in that scene because like that was the the kind of supposed to be sexy scene where you're like, oh, there are 30 people in the room with them. And it shows. And don't forget, she was America's sweetheart at this moment. She was Buffy.

Don't touch her little boobie. Buffy being homophobic. Buffy being a sociopath, narcissist. Dare I say cruel? I mean, this movie is a nightmare let's talk yeah so let me do the recap of this story which oh god okay i'll do my best so crazy the story focuses on katherine uh which is sarah michelle geller's character and sebastian which is r Michelle Gellar's character, and Sebastian, which is Ryan Phillippe. They are step-siblings who live together in New York City, and they are rich kid, private school elites,

and they are also the worst people in the world. Throughout the movie, we see them using people, they're manipulating people, and generally, they have cruel intentions. Stop it. I know. Believe it or not. It's not an ironic title. So Catherine meets Cecile, Selma Blair's character.

Okay, who's Selma Blair, by the way, 27 in this movie. 27 years old. Playing a 15-year-old. Uh-huh. Okay, just had to get that out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's Hollywood, babe. Yeah, I mean, that's egregious.

That's wild. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's Hollywood, babe. Yeah, I mean, that's egregious. That's wild. Yeah. And in order to compensate for the fact that she's playing a character over 10 years younger than she actually is. But she's acting so obscenely childlike that she overdid it, and it's just very distracting. Yeah, not to put Selma on blast, but really bad job, Selma. Yeah, sorry. I really liked her performance as a when i saw it as a kid i thought she was hilarious yeah perude i mean they directed her to act like that

so it's really not on her be a baby true so cecile is starting school with katherine in the fall and katherine does not like cecile because she stole Catherine's boyfriend Court so uh Catherine wants to ruin Cecile's reputation so that Court won't like her anymore right boyfriend named after a place to play a sport it's a super old like old money name Court yes oh yeah I'm so lower middle class that I had no idea. Oh, I was in a sorority. I knew my fair share of courts. They were all Fijis. Okay, all my Greeks out there. Oh, boy. So now Catherine asks her stepbrother Sebastian to seduce Cecile so that it ruins her goody goody reputation. Yeah. Meanwhile, Sebastian is like, I'm tired of having sex with all these debutantes. They're so boring.

So he wants more of a conquest. And he learns about Annette, which is Reese Witherspoon's character, who is also going to be starting at their school in the fall. Reese is still great in this movie. I love Reese. Reese is a treasure to turn on. Even though the dialogue is so cheesy and horrific at times, they all sell it. They do. They do sell it.

They're committing to these roles. Yes, 100%. For sure. That's why looking back at this movie, you're like, oh my God. What happened? So Annette's whole thing is that she's a virgin and that she's waiting to have sex presumably till marriage or like at least till she finds someone who she's in love with so sebastian decides that he's going to make annette his conquest and take her virginity and katherine's all like you can't do that that's out of your

league even for you so she's like let's make a wager if k Catherine wins, she gets Sebastian's cool convertible car. If he wins... He can fuck her in any hole he wants. We need to... Every 90s teen movie is made around a very sinister, assaulty bet. Yes. And then seeing Sarah Michelle Gellar in that sinister shot where she's like... What's the line? she's like, what's the line?

She's like, any. I'll let you go anywhere. And then you're just like, I hate this. I like that she's sex positive and confident in herself. Yes. And we'll talk about, she gives like a monologue that's worth unpacking. It's so misplaced everywhere. It's hell.

Yes. Yes, for sure. Yeah. And then side note, Sebastian has a journal that he's keeping where he details all of his you know like bets and lies and conquests and stuff with all these women so you were saying it's an early incarnation of the mean girls burn book yeah yeah yeah i also feel it's sort of like his zanga or his Tumblr. Yeah. Analog Zanga. Or perhaps like his texts.

You know, like what would be our equivalent. Right. Right. Yeah. So now Sebastian, he's going, he's trying to seduce Annette and she's not having it at first. And then meanwhile. But he's going to wear her down.

Don't worry. Don't you. Don't you worry. Love the 90s wear down. One grope at a time. Right. Meanwhile. One nepe at a time. Right. Meanwhile. One negging at a time.

God. Fucking monster. One just being in a pool. Exposing himself. Yeah. He's like, sorry, let me just show you what we're implying is a horse's dick. But we don't actually see it. So there's no receipts on the size of ryan philippe's

penis uh but the butt is good yeah however he is fully exposing himself without her consent and she's like oh this is and then he he yells at her for her to turn around because the onus is on her this movie fucking upset me god no wonder i like had such an issue with you know like when you're at a party and a guy like touches your lower back and you just kind of go along with it because you're like well i don't want to be rude it's like no wonder that shit happened to me in my 20s because of this fucking movie right nowadays if somebody did that i go hey get your fucking hand off me yeah anyway keep going clearly i'm fucking upset no this movie. This is just going to be a therapy session. Oh my God. It's just like,

the movie is condescending to where, did you notice in this scene, like right after where Sebastian takes Cecile's virginity, there's a bowl of cherries next to the bed. And it's just like, come on. Right. Sorry.

I wonder what they're trying to say there. Yeah. Okay. So meanwhile, Cecile, she's into her cello teacher ronald uh catherine's teaching cecile how to kiss so she can be good at kissing ronald because we gotta please men right you gotta get that kiss i mean a great kiss also all about a great kiss oh boy

uh then sebastian assaults cecile but that is not what the movie would have you believe happened. They think it's funny. He's a lady. There's some goofy music playing in the background. We should make a super cut of assaults happening in movies with a goofy soundtrack. Like Benny Hill. So this character that we are already supposed to be suspending our disbelief to be like, oh, she's 15.

Yeah, 100%. The way that scene goes is he basically is like, you have to kiss me. He's like, you're trying to make a stay. Yeah, he's like, all I want is a kiss. And she's like, oh, that's all? Okay. No, she essentially wants to leave. She's like, I'm uncomfortable.

I'm leaving. Because he basically says, get naked. I want to take your picture. She says, I want to leave. She's like, I'm uncomfortable. I'm leaving. Because he basically says, get naked. I want to take your picture. She says, I want to leave. He goes, you can't leave.

Traps her and blackmails her. I'm going to call your mom and tell her. So she says, I'll do anything. Please don't tell my mom. Okay, well, let me kiss you. She goes,

okay, I guess. And then he grabs the drawstring of her pants, pulls her pants down. And she's like, what are you doing? What are you doing? Clearly upset.

And he goes, you said I could kiss you. just starts going down and then a promise is a promise yeah yeah yeah guilt her into it we'll unpack this whole scene in a moment but it's upsetting upset meanwhile annette and sebastian are falling in love like what and then katherine has sex with r Ronald, the cello teacher. And then Sebastian and Annette finally have sex, which makes Catherine jealous because she's like, I thought I was going to have sex with my stepbrother, which she apparently wanted to do. Anywhere. So Catherine's like, oh, your reputation is going to be ruined, Sebastian, if you, you know, blah, blah, blah.

So he's like, you're right. I am going to tell Annette Sebastian, if you, you know, blah, blah, blah. So he's like, you're right. I am going to tell Annette that I don't love her. And then she's like, you idiot, you ran away from love the first chance you got just because you thought I was going to ruin your reputation. And then he's like, you're right. I'm an idiot. So he goes and like tries to make amends with Annette. And then there's a crazy scene where he and Ronald get in a fist fight. He's thrown into traffic. He gets hit by a cab. Not hard. He does not get hit by a car.

And an accident that would maybe break a couple ribs, but not kill him. But he dies. And then the end of the movie is catherine at like the funeral service and she's like oh my god oh how sad and then there's something bustling around in the crowd and she's like what's going on and then she goes outside and everyone has a copy of Sebastian's journal, which outs her as this horrible, manipulative, cool kid, cruel, intentioned woman. It also outs Sebastian as a horrible person, which no one seems to care about. And then it ends with Reese Witherspoon driving Ryan Phillippe's creepy journal into the sunset.

Because they're still in love. Even in Ryan Phillippe's death, she still loves him. And somehow she got the pink slip for the car, which I'll never understand. How did he put that in his will, knowing that he was going to get hit by a damn cab after meeting her a week ago, but somehow the bitch got the jag and she drives away with it. And that's the end. So she won the bet.

She won. She actually, the fact that it's, they're supposed to be, she's insulted in the journal. We see. Yeah. It's like stupid bitch who won't fuck.

And then she's like, I love him forever. and then drives away in his car i was like what the fuck is this movie like usually when i'm seeing one of these movies for the first time you can at least understand like oh i understand even though i find it to be problematic and fucked up i can understand what this was supposed to have been viewed when it came out. Yeah. That, I can't get there. I can't get to they're still in love. I think even in 99 logic.

You've evolved, you know, too far away. Because I'm telling you, I love this movie. And I didn't see anything wrong with it. I'm ashamed to say that, but that's the truth. But you were also a teenager. That was the truth. I mean, it's unfortunate that that's the culture that i grew up in but that's what we were given to consume as media and i thought this

movie was hilarious right funny i thought it was great and i'm this movie sucks it fucking sucks it sucks and with with that let's take a quick break and then we will be back to unpack the intentions that are cruel. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman.

The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current, available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Jay Shetty and welcome to On Purpose. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Andrew Huberman, a neuroscientist and professor at Stanford University, known for his insightful work on brain development, neuroplasticity,

and the intricate connection between the brain and body. Letting go and not trying to control everything, but also pushing oneself to be more resilient and tenacious and things of that sort. I feel like all of life is like that. All of life is about, yes, you need to take care of your physiology. You need to get your sleep at night. But it's also okay to get a bad night's sleep every once in a while. It's okay to not do every protocol. In fact, it's encouraged to not do every protocol. The expectation on us is not perfection,

right? It's being able to toggle between these different states. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Trust me, you won't want to miss this one. And we're back. All right, so, yeah, I mean, where to jump in? How about within the first five minutes of the movie, Sebastian has revenge-porned an innocent person? Yes. How about that?

That's a good place to start. He assaults, I would argue, his therapist, verbally, sexually. And then he revenge-porns her daughter. Uh-huh. Yes. Just because, for no reason. Just for fun, sort of. Like his own amusement.

He says later that he did that because she was overcharging him for therapy. Yeah. And so, you know, how do you compensate for that is with a human body. And it's, oh, it's just horrible. It's bad. So, yeah, right away we learn about what a cruel intentioned man sebastian is and then the conversation that his therapist has with her daughter who is played by tara reed tara reed's all like he put nude pictures of me on the internet and then her mom says how could you be so stupid? So she's a victim blaming her own daughter.

The Bechdel test passing exchange. What is it like? You dumb slut. You dumb slut. You dumb slut. And then Terry is like, mom, are you there? She's like, that does pass. It's a flawed test.

So yeah, that sets upastian's character pretty well and then he continues throughout the rest of the movie to keep doing heinous things like this except that he's the guy we're rooting for he does nothing to redeem himself at all i would argue no he gets hit by a car that's the best thing he does in the whole movie is die. And this is, again, one of those movies that it seems very prevalent in the 80s and 90s and probably the 2000s as well, where it's like rich kids saying like, my parents who love me and give me everything I want, fuck them. And we're supposed to be like, my hero. It's just so bizarre.

Well, we never meet their parents in this movie so it's kind of hard to tell what their relationship is like but it's still like we have to assume perhaps not great perhaps not great i think they're both seeking attention from a really sad place yeah due to the fact that your parents can be rich and give you you know physically anything you want but if they're not giving you attention and love then you know none of that matters and i think that's clearly what's happening the parents are off dealing with their own shit all the time and the kids are desperately seeking attention right literally fucking each other exactly so they're sunny side upping each other like keep an eye on these kids so i want to talk

about the romantic pursuit specifically of sebastian pursuing annette because she's heard that he has a bad reputation and she immediately doesn't like him uh she says the line it amazes me that someone as charming as you could be so manipulative, which they kind of go hand in hand. Right, right, right, right. It's like Reese is supposed to be a smart character. Right. And then in the first few scenes that we see her in talking to Sebastian, she is like she seems smart. She is headstrong.

She has like a value system that she is not wavering from. She calls him out on his bullshit you know well the first thing he does is when he they meet she's on a horse he literally grabs her body to get her off the horse for no reason yeah and she doesn't call him out she kind of looks at him and goes thank you which again that's what i would have done in this situation at her age and i probably did but it fucking pissed me off i wish you would have gone hey why don't you not fucking grab me i can get off the horse on my own right or how about you take my hand right he literally asked her body yeah oh do you need help it's like he won't let one thing go by without being a fucking creeper

right in every way it's awful and there and characters like reese's almost bug me even more because it sells that like false idea of like oh this girl is smart this girl's capable which which is true but then the second she can fall for a fucking psycho creep she does immediately which just sells the idea to like young smart girls of like no you should do this anyways like you you know you can be sure yeah like girl power you can be smart but you still have to fuck every creep who hits on you like it's just horrible and part of the reason that she falls for him is because he's lying to her and he's having other people lie on his behalf about oh his reputation it's bullshit you know he's actually a pretty nice guy when you think about his homophobic blackmail who could forget and we'll unpack that but then he's you know pursuing her as a bet for

most of the time but then he actually does start to develop feelings for her and then that's the movie asking us to be sympathetic to him and root for him because he's softening up he was a bad he was a cruel intentioned guy but now reese witherspoon makes one goofy face and he's like you know what i'm a changed man but also he isn't no he's not and to the very end of the movie he's still being horrible to everyone around him but again this is the move like we are the movie is asking us to root for him he's our protagonist who were like oh i hope he succeeds He's our protagonist who we're like, oh, I hope he succeeds. And even though he dies, we're supposed to feel something about it. Or that's what the movie wants us to feel.

And I'm sure, you know, as a young teen who saw this movie, yeah, everyone was like, oh, no, he died. That's so sad. Oh, no. The death is so weird no the death is so weird the death is so it's like lazy writing it's a deus ex machina yeah yeah like let's just kill him and they were like okay here we are we're backed into a corner here so we're gonna have him you know give her the journal she's gonna read it change her mind she's on the street she's looking for him uh what do we do guys i don't know we get hit by a taxi sounds good to me right cut and print i mean it's very lazy i also don't understand how her receiving his journal makes

her realize oh he does love me after all because in the journal he explains his plan to manipulate her and steal her virginity yeah and then she's like cool dude dude well i think you know listen you know she's obviously very easily manipulated yes i think he definitely added uh an addendum at the end that was like but throughout this process i actually fell for her and i've changed and i feel terrible and she accepted the apology yeah you know so that's why that happened but can i just say they showed a page of the book of his journal at the end the the photocopies i paused tv i couldn't read that shit that was the worst handwriting i've ever seen you it was like a doctor prescription like scribble and i was like who the fuck can read this can any of these kids read this shit i couldn't read a damn word of it no so who knows what he even said right but the

takeaway of that journal is supposed to be yeah sarah michelle gellar's a real bitch. Right. Like, he gets let off the hook, essentially. Why? Yeah. And then also there's, like, the teacher who comes up behind her and, like, takes away her Coke necklace. Which, narratively, how could he have seen that already? Right. He hasn't come outside. But, sure, fine.

Oh, good point. I didn't think about that. I mean, when that happened in the theater, I remember just being like, yas queen! Like, I was like, damn, revenge is a bitter fucking, you know, dish, bitch. I thought that was like the coolest, I'm telling you. I ate that shit up when he pulls out the scoop and it flies in the air and the look on her face. I was just like, yeah, drugs will get you nowhere, man. Like, I love that part. The one good message of the movie is that, hey, don't put drugs will get you nowhere man like I love that the one good message of the

movie yeah hey don't put drugs in your neck although I did google well I didn't google but I was like I want one of those not that I do coke but I was like I want like a drug necklace that to me was a really exciting idea maybe I'll put my like uh my emergency powder in it oh sure yeah yeah your vitamin b12 supplements to give you energy yes well like jamie like you were saying sebastian is completely let off the hook like he he is just as complicit and just as much of a villain yeah i didn't see Sarah Michelle Gellar rape anybody because he assaulted Cecile. He assaulted a ton of people, it sounds like. And that's just the movie, what we saw. Imagine the back pages of that book.

A bunch of women at that school. How do you think they're feeling right now? You know what I mean? How horrible. Their whole lives were just blasted in front of everybody. And he out everyone, including himself. And this movie takes place over the course of three or four days. And so it's like he's been doing this for a while.

I think it's a little longer than that. But even so. Maybe a week or two. It's so crazy. Because he and Reese haven't known each other for more than a little more than a week maybe. It's hard. Well, that's i think this is all before school gets back in but at the beginning of the movie uh cecile's like oh

ronald's teaching me cello over the summer as if the movie takes place over the course of a whole summer it's really it's unclear it makes it seem like it's a few days it could be as much as a month or a couple months or right like a a week. It's hard to tell. They're probably not thinking about it that hard. No, not at all. The people writing this movie are not concerned about consistency, the value of a human life. There's a lot of things they're not worried about. It's just insane to me that the movie poises Sebastian is like, he redeemed himself and I wonder if they made him die just to make

him seem more sympathetic because otherwise the story is Sebastian and Annette ending up together and then it's like well what does that relationship look like then because like now she knows the truth and like where do you go how do build? I don't know the origin. I haven't read the source material, but does that character get hit by a taxi? And do they give their journal out? I don't know. Cruel Intentions is adapted from a novel by a man whose name is so French that I cannot pronounce it. Pierre something.

It was written in 1782 or published then. Which absolutely tracks and keeps with this another late 90s trend of like trying to adapt like old ass books into movies for teenagers. Right. Because She's All That was an adaptation of Pygmalion. Right. Yes. And 10 Things I Hate About You was a Shakespeare. Right.

So, yeah, it's another sinister media trend. Everything is derivative, you know? Yeah, it's like, oh, the sexism in the late 1700s is still applicable today. And apparently, I mean, no one proved them wrong. In the book, it looks like the Ryan Phillippe character dies in a duel, like in the book it looks like the ryan philipy character dies in a duel like in the fight with ronald so i guess they're like well we can't have ronald kill him because that would be out of nowhere and they can't duel so let's just don't forget he also died saving saving annette he died a hero annette was trying to break up the fight and she got

flung into traffic and got up very slowly let's be honest very very slowly and she's like oh i'm in the middle of the street oh a car is coming what and sebastian pushes her out of the way to save her and in turn gets hit so maybe that's another element to why everyone's forgiving him. Yeah. I don't know. The movie. I mean, jumping in front of a cab for somebody, that's very heavy. That's true love.

What a man. I don't wish he'd ever been. What a man. There's not many people I could think of that like that would, I guess I would probably do it no matter what, instinctively. Sure. Because I'm such a people pleaser. But I hope I don't find out if I'm being honest.

I hope that we all die as people pleasers. Just die in the pursuit of trying not to give a perceived slight. To be compliant. Yeah. I mean, the cab was going, what, 25 miles an hour? Well, he also screeched on his brakes. Like, you heard him screech on his brakes. So by the time he is slowed down, what do I know?

Right. We're not doctors. Maybe Sebastian had some kind of autoimmune disease where he bruises easily and the blood went somewhere. He would have been carrying bruises from the sunny side up then.

When it cuts to him and his injuries, he has a few scratches on his forehead and he has some bloody knuckles. That's it. Unless he's got some severe hemorrhaging or like a traumatic brain injury. Like, right. One more note on the adaptation. This is not the only adaptation of this French novel that came out in 1988, Dangerous Liaisons, based on the same fucking book.

Yes. I can't remember if I've seen that or not, but oof. I have not seen it, but I will watch anything with Glenn Close in it, so I will watch it. Wait, Dangerous Liaisons, that's not the one where she cooks his bunny, right? That's what I was just thinking. What movie is that? Fatal Attraction. Okay, yes.

Fatal Attraction, yes. Got it. I also, when we were watching this movie, thought we were watching, I thought Cruel Intentions. I was like, oh, that's the one where Kathy Bates locks a guy in a house that's misery so i was in for a full full thought we were watching misery we were not right we're watching something way worse pretty much yeah but just as violent yeah and and say which i mean really quick say what you will about this movie but christine baranski does play a character named bunny so not all bad well she's incredible in the movie she's great although problematic in many ways yeah she slays she's well yeah baranski

i have no notes let's talk about that for a moment so there is an interracial romance between Cecile and Ronald. Ronald is fine. Yeah. And also, if my daughter brought home a Juilliard composer cellist, I'd be like, honey, thank you. You did a good job. But he's not good enough. So mainstream movies generally do not like to feature interracial romances on screen. When they do, it's often a big plot point of the movie, rather than just treating that relationship like it's a normal thing that doesn't need to be heavily commented on. So movies like Get Out, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, Save the Last Dance, Jungle Fever, Holes, our favorite uh loving um just to name a few they all have major plot points that derive love holes like that does sound like i love holes anywhere i need this i can't

believe i haven't seen it being a huge shia fan oh i've read the book oh the movie's pretty good okay so um these movies all have major plot points that derive from two people of different races being together. I would say a recent exception to this is To All the Boys I've Loved Before. Still got to watch it. Oh, it's good. Have you seen Greatest Showman? Yes. That one has one too.

Oh, right. But, oh, God, dude, that movie was terrible. I cried twice, but that's fine. Oh, sure, sure, sure. I would probably cry i would probably hate it and cry music gets to me music really gets to me i love a music basically i just think that there should be more stories that normalize an interracial relationship rather than saying like oh my fucking god look how big of a freaking deal it is for a white person to date a non-white person oh but they really talk about it so cruel

intentions makes a fairly big deal of an interracial relationship where uh cecile is a white woman and her cello teacher ronald is a black man and they are in love and katherine uses their interracial relationship as fuel to seek revenge on cecile by telling cecile's disapproving racist mother well it also doesn't help that the only black man in this movie is preying on a child right we we don't know how old he is right no but like he's attending pre juilliard which i don't know what that means or what age that would make you. So it's possible he's also a child. I mean, I guess because, you know, I agree with all that.

I will say, like, when you are somebody's teacher, there's a power dynamic. Absolutely. You know, and and I'm not a fan of that. I mean, have y'all taken improv classes in this town? You know how it goes. The fucking men teachers, know yeah so it's not cute sometimes totally agree so like the fact that the only man of color is abusing the power dynamic whether he's a child or not although i will say he didn't touch her but those letters are a little

creepy the letters he does get behind her and like right in moment yeah that's the first scene you see him and where he's like he's behind her is his arms around her under the guise of like let me teach you how to play cello but it's really like let me put my crotch right up against your ass bad adaptation of the ghost scene yeah for sure yeah no pottery getting made in this scene no it's just a guy hitting on a kid but the twist is the kid's 27 it's very confusing anyone could be any age in this movie oh so then selma blair gave birth to half the cast it's it's it's hard to know what's going on and then we see that scene play out where like mrs caldwell's all like ronald how could you? I got you off the streets. And he's like, I live at 59th and Park. What are you talking about? And then he's saying like, I never

touched your daughter. And I thought someone of your stature would look beyond racial lines. And she's like, Oh, don't give me that racist crap. I gave money to Colin Powell, which I mean, the bare minimum done here is that the racist character is clearly wrong and silly right but the subtext of everything is still extremely bad right because he's still preying on the kid he's still praying and then again katherine who is the villain of the movie even though sebastian is actually the villain of the movie but the movie wants you to love him but Catherine is like exploiting the fact that two people love each other and because they happen to be of a different race she's like oh I can like use this as fuel to like get back at Cecile yeah which like Cecile

literally did nothing to her right nothing nothing nothing she doesn't have enough brain power to do much well it's like she you, basically this is an ego thing. Catherine dated a guy, court, and something happened. We don't really know. There's a quick little scene of her, like, going down on him while he's passed out. But it's basically, he started seeing Cecile, and her ego said, you dumped me for her? Oh, fuck her. Which is such an issue among women.

Like if, listen, it's never the other woman. It's the guy. It's never the other woman. It's the guy. Do not hate on the other woman. It's the guy.

I'm telling you from experience. And we talk about this a lot on the podcast because we come up upon many relationships between, and it's often teen girls but in movies it shows two women just like being in conflict with each other for reasons that aren't fully explored just because you know the older white men who are writing these movies are like teen girls can't get along so let's just make sure that's in the movie right so yeah but that's why we all learn from it you know i mean i've been in many not many i've been in a few squabbles with girls that are

currently with my ex or their i'm with their ex and all of them eventually i go yeah that was dumb yeah this is silly but movies like this reinforce the idea that yeah i'm saying you gotta pit women against each other go I have to go against all this upbringing? I'm a fucking miracle sitting in front of you right now. How evolved I am is a fucking miracle. Personally, I recommend forming a league of exes.

I'm a part of several leagues of exes. A la Scott Pilgrim? No, because that movie's problematic. But, you know, sometimes I've dated a lot of losers, and sometimes losers get to have sex with a bunch of cool ladies, and then the cool ladies become friends, and then the loser has to stop performing stand-up comedy.

It's great. It's great. Did we date the same person? I'm literally on a text chain with the four exes of my ex. It's great. It's great. It's real trauma bonding. And guess what? It's the guy, everybody.

It's always the guy. That's all I gotta say. Well, let's take a quick break and we will be back for more Cruel Intentions. Whee! Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now.

The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime

and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago, when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman.

The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current, available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Jay Shetty and welcome to On Purpose. I started this podcast to have real conversations that help you live with more meaning, whether it's navigating relationships,

working on your mental health, or figuring out what you're truly here to do. This week, I welcomed back Dr. Andrew Huberman, a neuroscientist and professor at Stanford University, known for his insightful work on brain development, neuroplasticity, and the intricate connection between the brain and body. Letting go and not trying to control everything, but also pushing oneself to be more resilient and tenacious and things of that sort. I feel like all of life is like that. All of life is about, yes, you need to take care of your physiology. You need to get your sleep at night, but it's also okay to get a bad night's sleep every once in a while. It's okay to not do every protocol. In fact, it's encouraged to not do every protocol. The expectation on us is not perfection, right? It's being able to toggle between these

different states. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Trust me, you won't want to miss this one. And we're back. Not to keep, I know I'm the adaptation head in the room, love talking about adapting source material. But in the original book the way it ends is sarah michelle gillard's character has to move to the countryside and then she contracts smallpox and lives but has scars on her face forever so she looks like shit oh and that's her punishment her beauty is taken away from her oh gee whiz and then also cecile is disgraced and can never be married so you know sebastian dies and you know goes down the hero and then all the women he affected suffer

and are disgraced for life very cool awesome awesome awesome love it i love history but that is like what writers of then and now's idea would be, oh, how do we punish a woman? Take away her beauty because women's beauty is all that matters. My guy Pierre, not a very woke guy. No. Do better, Pierre. JK, he's very dead. Let's talk about how queerness is represented in this film, shall we?

Oh, God, do we have to? We have to. So there's a subplot where blaine which is joshua jackson's character oh yeah joshua jackson's in this movie he's fully bleached frosty tippy yeah he's wearing a sweater vest for a large portion of it yeah um i mean he's rocking the look if i'm being honest i'm into the look I did like the sweater vest. He is hooking up with this football player dude, Greg. The Gregster.

The Gregster. I did, I stan a Gregster. Okay, good. And Greg is who Sebastian thinks is bad-mouthing him to Annette, because there's someone who's like, Sebastian's bad, don't date him, Annette. And Sebastian thinks it's Greg. So Sebastian uses Greg's queerness to blackmail him.

Yes. He basically threatens to out Greg unless he admits to badmouthing him. And we understand at this point in the story that Sebastian is still a bad guy. And we've seen him do a bunch of really, you know, morally reprehensible things to people already but what is really troubling to me about this scene is that all of this is happening right in front of blaine who is the other identifiably queer character in the movie and he is completely complicit in everything that seb is doing. He was participating in it. Yeah.

He was helping. That's an awesome idea. Right. Where it's just like, in the same way that Reese's character is presented to us as a smart, capable woman who will go along with whatever, Joshua Jackson's character is a smart, funny, cool, queer man who is down for whatever sinister gay bashing plot uh ryan philippe's noodlehead can come up with it's horrible well i think you know i look back on my my high school experience and my queer friends and i think they were just trying to get by yeah

i think this was a defense mechanism it was like yeah right. Yeah, call me a homophobic slur. I'm fine with it. Yeah, right. He's just trying to get through his damn day. He's just waiting to graduate to get the fuck out of there so he can find his tribe. But that just doesn't come off in the movie at all. Right, right. It just comes off as like, oh, yeah, this is fine.

And I feel for the Gregster. Me too. This movie, like many of its era, did not acknowledge any gray area. It's like you're gay or you're straight. And that's it. But I feel for the Gregster. I really hope the Gregster comes into his own later and that his dad accepts him. And then he goes on to have a powerful queer football career.

But then poor Greg has to do Sebastian's creepy errand. Yeah. And I would say of the hundred or more movies we've covered on the podcast so far, only a small handful of them, probably like five or less even, have had an identifiably queer character. A lot more have been queer coded, but that is not the same. So there's such a lack of queer visibility in mainstream Hollywood cinema, and it's a huge problem. So for one of the few examples of a queer character that we have to choose from to be able to see on screen he's really evil and cruel and like willing to

sell out his own people for reasons that are not really established in the movie and it so it's like even characters who are not coded queer who are identifiably queer yeah they're still villainous not that this movie is was ever gonna do any better but that was just like a punch in the mouth as well yeah um yeah i mean he was he was like a comic relief or you know yeah yeah yeah and another i mean i don't even know if this trope applies as much in this movie because literally everyone is a horrendous villain but adding another queer villain to the roster uh certainly is not helpful not helping not helpful well and then the other queer moment in this movie is between salma blair and sarah

michelle geller which is i mean you can come at this scene a lot of different ways i'm interested in like what our listeners think of this moment because it is so like i feel like this this is used in movies a lot just to like get butts in seats it's like these two actresses are having a kiss but it sells the idea that it's like it's just an experiment it's just for fun it's not serious and that's part of what makes it appealing or what's supposed to make it appealing um is it's i think the most effective kiss of the movie uh well it was iconic it was it was i hadn't seen this movie but i knew that scene right very well it got uh parodied in many of film i think like not another teen movie franchise it won best kiss at the mtv movie awards that year which at the time was fucking iconic.

And, you know, the little spit trail that was famous. I did like the spit trail. I don't know. To me, it was, the whole scene was you have to learn how to be sexy for men. You have to learn how to please your man.

And it was a very, like, male gaze moment. Oh, absolutely. And, was a very like male gaze moment. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I don't know. I grew up in a completely different place. I was in, you know, suburbial Texas, not like, you know, upper New York echelon. But I never made out with my fucking friends. I don't know.

Neither did I. Not until college when I was like, ooh, let's see what this is like. Same. Yeah. did i not until college when i was like oh let's see what this is like yeah but but not and i don't even mean that in a way of like you shouldn't experiment sexually with your friends i'm just saying it was it was such a like well don't you want to be better for a man to like you and that made me sad i think it would be really beautiful if they kissed they were just curious experimenting and you know figuring things out but it very much like, if you want to be sexy to other men, if you want to know how to please a man, because fuck him pleasing you. You know what I mean?

He's not making out with his friends, so he knows how to please you better. But it's our job. I made out with my friends. Oh, good job. Thank you. My neighbor and I used to practice kissing on each other to Madonna's 2000 album, Music.

Oh, music makes a people. There were some good songs on that CD. Yeah, we would practice Frenching to that song. I think this scene is largely there to satisfy a male gaze. Could you argue that it's positive that it exists in this film for, you know, young queer girls to be able to see themselves? A hundred percent. And say, oh, this is like, yes. But I think the movie wasn't thinking about this at all. I think the movie was like, wouldn't it be hot if we had two hot women kissing each other?

And it was a very sensual moment. It was. I mean, it was well done. And it's, yeah, the reason I didn't want to, like, calm down too hard with the kiss is, like, because there are so few moments for, like, young queer people to attach themselves to. And so I'm sure for many people this is, like,

a scene that's like, oh, this is like, that was like some sort of awakening or something like that. Yeah. And good to see. But there's like, oh, this is like that was like some sort of awakening or something like that. Yeah. And good to see. But there's no there's only cruel intentions behind. Right. What?

Cruel intentions? Whatever do you mean? But yeah. And this happens in movies all the time. Two examples right off the top of my head are Jennifer's body at Diablo Cody joint and Black Swan, where there's just very like this didn't need to happen but you added it in because you wanted to because you're a guy right yeah yeah another moment happens where this is when sebastian and annette are first meeting on screen and sebastian's all like oh i didn't like your manifesto it's gross that you want to be a virgin and she's like she's saying you know

i think that sex should be for people who are in love and that you should to be a virgin and she's like she's saying you know i think that sex should be for people who are in love and that you should the act of love shouldn't be done unless you love the person which is also a feminist icon trevor wait which one's trevor we don't meet him but oh her boyfriend who respects her damn wishes yeah they use a homophobic slur. Yeah. To refer to him. Yeah. And I'm just like, actually, he's a feminist icon. Right.

And the Gregster queer icon. True, true, true. Yeah. So, and that's all like, we, like, people our age aren't mature enough to experience those emotions, so that's why I'm not having sex yet.

Right. And then Sebastian immediately asks, are you a lesbian? And this is the, I think, third movie that we've covered recently where a woman either doesn't want a boyfriend or doesn't want to have sex with a man or is simply identifies as a feminist. And then other characters, usually men, assume that she's a lesbian because this happens in 500 Days of Summer. How dare she not be attracted to me instantly and want to fuck me?

And then backpedaling a little bit back to the virginity article is like, and this is something that happens in movies all the time too, of like implying that someone is like just waiting for a manipulative dick to come along to lose their virginity to, as opposed to like, it's clearly stated in the weird teen magazine she somehow wrote an editorial for for no reason that this is what she this is what she wants and this is like and and she explains it clearly and the movie is like yeah but she doesn't actually mean that right she's just waiting for an asshole to come along and neck her right into submission so and I want to talk about that scene where Catherine gives this like sort of monologue where she's calling out a double standard that we see in society. I've never heard of it. She says,

it's all right for guys like you in court. She's talking to Sebastian for guys like you in court to fuck everyone. But when I do it, I get dumped for innocent little twits like Cecile god forbid i exude confidence and enjoy sex do you think that i relish the fact that i have to act like mary sunshine 24 7 so i can be considered a lady so she's basically saying like it's not fair that men can have sex with a bunch of people you know their reputation remains untarnished they're cool they're you know awesome dudes and then whenever women have sex with more than one person they are labeled a slut so she's calling this out she makes a good point but she's also insulting another woman while

doing it yeah she's mad at people judging her but she's judging some another woman's sexual choices right this ring completely empty to me yes like i just if she would have cut the first sentence you know or the part the innocent twit like cecile part uh-huh it would have been fine but clearly she's just dealing through her own shit yeah and it's like the the whole like gillian flynn argument there jillian flynn don't know we never know don't care tired uh but but the whole argument there. Gillian Flynn? Don't know. We never know. Don't care. Tired. But the whole argument there is like that like women

should be allowed to be villains and isn't that parody? And like I agree with that to an extent, but this just like falls squarely into a thing I fucking hate, which is like the adding a few, like this is a moment for feminists

that is totally empty because the character is complicit in all these horrible things and they're mean to women themselves and it's just like it it's it's empty like girl power right right especially because like i think this monologue could be way more meaningful and progressive if it was coming from a character who wasn't completely evil like because this movie does what a lot of movies do which is to take a character who wasn't completely evil like because this movie does what a lot of movies do which is to take a woman who is interested in sex and who is open with her sexuality but who's also like really mean or has just some other negative characteristic like

ascribed to her character so it's almost villainizing her sexuality where it's like oh yeah she wants to be open she wants to be free to have sex with a number of different people but also she's cruel she has cruel intentions especially because this isn't the direct lead up to her being squarely made the sole villain of the movie by the end yeah i just want to say also like i was pr shamed. And that's just a word I made up. It might be a term. No, but that's a thing. I was prude shamed in high school. I graduated high school a virgin.

And I was extremely prude shamed by a guy I was dating, by all his friends, by literally everyone. And it's a whole other coin. Yeah. literally everyone and it's a whole other coin yeah and i struggled with a lot of that myself because i saw you know friends of mine having sex and and then i almost slut shamed them out of insecurity and like you know what i mean so yeah i hate it but i think it's important to call out again this is the shit that we were shown right and this movie 100 affected me oh yeah and my sexuality subconsciously how i saw other women and that's all i gotta say about that shout out to all the prudes you know i was trying to get

through the damn day i was just trying to graduate and go to school damn it prudes are productive people i mean but that's the point it's like do what you want and how about no women comment on other women's sexual preferences? Right. Right. There's no need. How about we all say, you know what, if you want to have sex, that's awesome. If you don't, that's awesome.

Yeah. We can all coexist without judging each other. Your body, your choice. Exactly. And that's another thing that bothers me about the Reese character is, like, at the beginning, it's like, if I saw this movie when i was teen prude same same thing yeah i would have been like oh this is the character i attach myself to and then immediately it's like no but she just has to fuck ryan philippe and then her life will be great and

it's like well he manipulated her i mean nothing right i would like to think when she's 33 you know doing a podcast that she would be like fuck i should not you know i don't know maybe i do that a little differently if i thought about it a little more that guy had intentions not so nice right were they cruel would you say um i don't want to like throw anyone under the bus here but also his handwriting is really bad but i got a jaguar out of it. I don't wish to speak ill of the dead, but perhaps his intentions were cruel. Well, let's talk about another scene or series of scenes that probably also negatively influenced you as a teen watching this movie, which is the rape scene and the aftermath. I fucking hate this so much. Yeah. So what happens here is that Sebastian invites over Cecile under the pretense that he's going to help her with Ronald. To write a letter for him.

Which he has no intention of doing, actually. Then he feeds her an alcoholic drink that she does not know contains alcohol. He takes pictures of her without her knowledge or permission. Then he negs her and says, too bad you're not sexy. Then he unzips her sweatshirt and exposes her bra without her permission. Then he threatens to call her mom and blackmails her. When she wants to leave. When she wants to leave.

She explicitly says, I'm uncomfortable. I want to leave. And to which he says, you can't leave. I will rat you out and ruin your life. So he traps her. leave. Yes. And to which he says, you can't leave. I will rat you out and ruin your life. So he traps her. Yep. Yep. Then he says,

all I want to do is give you a kiss, which she, the consent here in this, in this isolated moment is still murky because she's really only agreeing to it to sort of placate him because he's been blackmailing her. I'll do anything. Just don't call my mom. Right. Right. Right. mom right right right which is so gross as a you know she's a child uh-huh and then he's like well i want to kiss you down there and then she's like oh no oh i don't want

that and then he's like well promise is a promise i mean i can't imagine like i put myself in that situation and again it when i was like a 15 year old virgin i mean that would have completely ruined my life that would have completely changed the course of my life my sexuality everything absolutely it's a very fucked up moment yeah yeah and the aftermath of this so then he he takes advantage of her naivete, pressures her into oral sex, which she does not give consent to. He rapes her. So the next day she is visibly traumatized. Yes.

And then I think maybe later that day or the next day or something like that, Cecile and Catherine talk about it. Cecile says, you know, something awful happened to me last night. It involves your brother. He took advantage of me. And then Catherine. and then she straight up says your brother fucking raped me yeah your brother fucking raped me and what does katherine say katherine says well first she says why didn't you do something why didn't you stop him victim blaming oh horrible this i literally felt throat rising my throat watching this. It made me so uncomfortable. Unless I forget, I loved it when I was a kid.

I thought this was funny. It's so gaslighting, insane, bad. Sending the message that women cannot talk to other women about this stuff. And it's just, oh, it's bad. She was confiding in her. She was terrified. And she's like, oh, he forced intercourse on you? No.

Oh, he made you give him a blowjob? No then what and then she not acknowledging what happens and then she's like oh he went down on you oh that's what you call it and then she's asking did you like it no and she's like no and she's like well i don't know it was weird and then catherine's like oh well you had an orgasm you're becoming a lady you you had your awakening that somehow makes all this awesome right and then she's like i'm so proud of you and then cecile who again is a victim and is experiencing trauma the movie has her say i am and then she's squealing with delight she hugs katherine and then katherine's like it would be stupid of you to stop you should keep going have sebastian teach you all the sex stuff so sleep with as many people as possible and she's like well wouldn't

that make me a slut and Catherine's like everybody does it it's just that no one talks about it so like god I hate this so much it's the worst possible way this could have unfolded where she's a victim of rape she She is confiding in another woman. That other woman gaslights her, victim blames her, and then says, oh, what happened to you wasn't bad. It was actually good

because you had an orgasm and you should keep doing it. And then the scene after that is Cecile back at Sebastian's place. She has now had sex with him. She wants to keep having, she's throwing himself. She's obsessed with him. Yeah.

There's bowls of cherries everywhere. And he's a fucking asshole. He throws her off the bed. He throws her off the bed. Because she's talking. I mean, he's really setting her up for a healthy sexual identity. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like, it just, my heart broke in this scene. Just imagining her again, growing up in her twenties. This is setting her up for just really shitty emotions involving her sexuality. It bummed me out so hard. I guess I'm like too old to enjoy movies anymore because all I see are the sad things. I'm so glad I didn't see this movie as a teenager because I really think I would have been so fucked up about it. All of this went over my head. All of this.

And that says a lot again about my environment, the media I was consuming, the lack of positive, helpful conversations I was being given. So again, it's a miracle I'm who I am today. That's all I got to say. Well, we've all had to retrain ourselves. A hundred percent. And it comes with age that's one you know i'll take that yeah and i'm happy with who i am today and fortunately this is not the sort of movie it would be very hard to make this movie in the same way today because uh society

because we have evolved like you were saying um thank god have we evolved enough certainly not that's why we do this podcast every movie from like have y'all talked about the wedding singer no not yet i'll leave it for that let's just say it used to be my favorite movie and i watched it and i was just like damn there's so many things in this movie that really are not okay anymore i had to give my favorite movie back to the future on a bonus episode we did zero nipples because everything about it is horribly problematic there's some assault in that movie too that everyone just hurt her that was funny on a bonus episode, we did zero nipples because everything about it is horribly problematic. There's some assault in that movie too that everyone just, that was funny.

Yeah, this movie is horrible. Yeah, but great soundtrack. Oh man, that CD was great. Come back around. I love the tips, they're frosty and I'm here for them. But like everything else is horrible. Ryan Phillippe says, email is for geeks and pedophiles. Which is so great.

I mean, it's iconic. Which, you know, relatable. They didn't get everything wrong. That's an LOL line in 2018. Email is still chaotic evil. Email causes me so much anxiety. It's not like a phone call where you can talk to somebody and then it goes away and you'll never really remember exactly what somebody says

it's literally like i remember i broke up with this guy and i sent him the worst like embarrassing overshare email and i'm like i'm married now he's married now that email exists it's like this someday he could fucking there's a paper trail and i hate that makes me so upset that that exists i man sometimes when i'm feeling like emotionally cutting i'm like let me just see see an email i sent at any point horrific psycho does anyone have any other thoughts about cruel intentions it's just like if if you want if you are a an evolved person who wants to get drunk with their friends and really ogle a horrifying piece of media this was a fun party watch other than that i mean if you haven't seen this movie and expect

to get anything out of it in terms of your life you won't right uh it's it's it's really a cursed piece of media it's sure it it's a little over an hour and a half long but it took me i would say four hours to watch because i kept either having to pause it to take a string of notes or i was just so emotionally exhausted watching it that i just had to keep taking breaks i mean one thing we didn't even touch upon is katherine's wardrobe which is literally like grandmama oh yeah it was like so as they say on project runway matronly she dressed like a you know 60 70 year old like rich lady and the clothing is crazy and then annette is dressed in like whites and pastels

the whole movie because she's like the virginal she's in pastels and then she dresses pretty like that pretty like that's what a mid 2000s or late 90s, you know, teen girl would wear. Sure. But I think the color palette was very intentional. It was. It was. And then the and then Cecile is dressing in like cartoonish. She's wearing a onesie. She's wearing a bib.

Why? You can see the diaper under her fucking eyes on dress. It's so... It's a cost diaper. With her fucking barrette. And, you know, she looks 27. Put a barrette. Well, that's why I carry a backpack.

I always say wear a backpack. It takes 10 years off of you. Uh-huh. Because you instantly look like, oh, I'm late for fucking Stenny Hall. Gotta go. School is hard. So that's a tip for all the people out there. That's actually a great tip. Thank you.

I'm gonna wear it in my audition. They're gonna go, wow, look at that teen here auditioning for Best Buy. She's glowing. Oh, well, shall we determine whether or not the movie passes the Bechdel test? Yeah. Somehow. It does. It does. There are quite a few scenes where women interact in

the movie. This passes it? Yeah. Oh, yeah yeah a bunch of times unfortunately like oh my god by our standard it only has to be a two-line exchange that passes so there are quite a few conversations that women will be talking they will start off the conversation about not men and then they will start to talk about men but the first few lines of those conversations will pass for example like even in the very beginning with the therapist whose name we learn based on the book cover is Dr. Regina Greenbaum. She's on the phone with Tara Reid. She's like, hi, honey.

And then Marcy's like, you kept me on hold. And the doctor is like, I'm sorry, is something wrong? And then they start talking about Sebastian. Oh, so that counts. But that counts. I mean, to us, which the bar is so low. We talk about that all the time. We talk about the fact that this test is flawed.

That's not- That's what I'm saying. That is what we named the show. Right, right. So we have to keep- I mean, I only found one conversation where they didn't talk about men. And that was when Aunt Helen and Annette are discussing her house while they're riding the horses.

It's like, oh, what a beautiful home. Oh, it's been in my family for generations. Oh, thank you for letting me stay here. The only fucking conversation between women characters. Rich people talk then. I should not pass the Bechdel exam. But then Annette says, oh, my grandpa used to breed horses. So then she mentions a man.

Oh, shit. Damn. This is a man's world. There's a scene toward the beginning where Catherine Ce cecile and bonnie caldwell christine bransky's character they're talking about how cecile's gonna start school and there's there's quite a few lines that do pass but then but then cecile says what are the boys like so then that stops it so sebastian sexually harasses her and in that scene looks up her skirt yeah yeah yeah god and nobody says anything and then the mother shames her yeah yeah right she's like bunny she's put your legs together close

your legs this isn't jamaica what the fuck does that mean first of all i don't know but i don't like it whatever that implication is i hate it but can you imagine a mother not saying how fucking dare you my 15 year old daughter you're disgusting i'm telling you it's so much victim blaming and victim shaming i'm so enraged how dare they do this to christine honestly christine didn't oh god okay so there's a few other scenes that like toward the end whenever uh katherine and annette are in the bathroom as Catherine snorting cocaine out of her necklace and Annette comes out of the stall. Catherine's like, I didn't know anyone else is in here. And then that's like, I'm sorry, I'm Annette Hargrove.

And she's like, I'm Catherine. Have we met? I don't think so. And then they talk about. They both act like they don't know who each other is. Right, right, right. They talk about Sebastian. But yeah, those few first lines pass the test.

Damn. So this movie, unfortunately, does pass. Damn. Even though most conversations between women end up being about men. So, yes. So, good job, movie. Shall we rate the film on our nipple scale? Can we rate?

Can we even do it? Let's try. Zero to five nipples based on its portrayal and representation of women. It's a zero. I'm getting... This is getting zero nipples. Everything

between the victim blaming, the assault that is not considered assault by most of the characters in the movie and the movie itself. The homophobia, the slurs that get thrown around very freely. The fact that women hate each other. There isn't a woman that gets along with another woman in the whole movie.

Yeah, the fact that Catherine is villainized at the very end, and she's horrible that this movie exists in the world but that soundtrack though that soundtrack though so yeah zero nipples so i have no nipples to give to anybody i'm also going to give it zero nipples. So I have no nipples to give to anybody. I'm also going to give it zero nipples. I want to give it negative nipples because this is a successful movie that had a net negative impact on the culture.

It did harm to people. I'm giving it negative one nipple. I'm giving it an inverted cursed nipple because it did. I mean, movies like this are so frustrating because they're I mean, this is a special case because there's truly nothing good to be taken away from it. Yeah, you're totally right. There's not one positive, not loaded with like malice, female interaction where at least there are male male relationships in this movie that are friendships. But of course, it's because they do evil shit together.

They rape in packs. But no woman talking to another woman in this movie is done without them lying to each other, manipulating. It's just woman-on-woman nightmare. When you say their intentions are perhaps cruel? I say they're a little mean. Oh, okay. I say mean, yeah. I say mean intentions okay okay

uh i'm it gets an inverted nipple for violence against christine baranski it can't it just i don't like when my gal is saying things about jamaica that make no sense right this movie like sucks so hard that it it is watching a slow taxi crash that makes no sense. Yeah, it's bad. It's bad. I can't think of something I could have done to make it worse. Right. They made every bad choice.

And that is an accomplishment in itself. Yeah. They made every single bad choice. They didn't let Sebastian have one. I mean, he even verbally assaults the old woman in the retirement home. He fucking verbally assaulted the old lady in the retirement home. Yeah. He fucking verbally assaulted the old lady in the retirement home. Like, who? He got her.

Her character gets past him. He gaslights her. He's like, yeah, we played backgammon, you dumb idiot. Oh, I fucked your daughter. Like, are you kidding? Who are you? Sick fuck. What a sick fuck.

I also, the fun runner of every time Sebastian walks into a building, he abuses the working class doorman in one way or another. Class shaming people. Oh, he's just a nightmare. But he's the guy that we're supposed to root for at the end because he gets not even any less evil. Because of his hand. He does nothing to redeem himself.

Because he had a sinister scrapbook that was published yeah he went into a lot like he like cut things out of magazines and decoupaged he was getting crafty yeah i mean a you know whatever fuck it uh negative one nipple yeah what would you give it i would give the soundtrack five nipples, but the movie zero. Yes. Fuck this movie. Honestly, shame on all these actors, too. Yeah.

But again, at the time. We didn't know any better. That's really depressing, but that's true. And I hate to pull the ignorance card. Yeah. But honestly. But it's true. It is. It just makes me.

I wonder what they think now. You know, like Molly Ringwald talked about The Breakfast Club and looking back on it it i would love to hear what sarah michelle geller thinks of this movie now and ryan philippe okay this movie almost became a tv show two years ago and then it was uh mindfully canceled yes um i i don't know well reese has like done a lot of good things it seems since she you know she has a production company where she's championing female-led projects championing women of color so there's been rules yeah no doubt about it so at least she was fucked up with that cop that one time but we all pretend that didn't happen oh wait what happened what she was driving drunk got pulled over it was like don't you know who i am

i mean but did he the the PR team skirted past that one. Everybody gets one shitty pass. You learn from it. Yeah. You know, okay. Hollywood forgives. I think we all know that by now.

Okay. Yes. Unless you're a woman older than 40. A hundred percent. And then you're not. But Reese is America's sweetheart. When she won her Oscar, I sobbed.

I wept with joy. Yeah. So call me Reese. Love you. And Elle Woods. I will defend her till my dying day. Yeah, like Reese Witherspoon is like white feminism, the person. For better or for worse. Sure.

Yeah. Well, Jackie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and discussing this delightful movie with us. Yes. Where can people find you online? Do you have anything you'd like to plug? Well, I host a show called Natch Beauty. It it's a beauty show but what does beauty mean to you you know that's really what we talk about we we really love cruelty free products so we get into the kind of the stuff nobody tells you about the beauty industry makeup and skincare and we have fun on there so maybe you

too can come on and we can talk about stuff like that. It'd be fun. I like cruelty-free intentions. It's waiting for you to do it. Direct DVD sequel. So yeah, check out Natchabute and you can follow me on Instagram at Natchabute.

I always plug my dog's account, HelloI'mTheChooch, because my dog is the biggest star in my house. If you like dog accounts, follow Choochie. Love it. Awesome. You can find us in all the usual places. We are on Twitter and Facebook at

Bechtelcast. Please like. Please subscribe. Please leave us some stars on iTunes. Leave us a fun little review. You can buy our merch on TeePublic. You can... Sign up for TeePublic. You can, uh, oh, sign up for our Patreon,

aka Matreon, at patreon.com slash the Bechtel cast. Five dollars a month gets you two bonus episodes. Wow. Whee! Uh,

and, uh, you know, moving forward in your day, try to keep your intentions good. Nice. Nice. Not cruel. Sick sign off, good. Nice. Not cruel.

Sick sign off, guys. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks.

She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that?

That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister, or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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