The Bechdel Cast - Dazed and Confused with Maris Kreizman

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

This week, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Maris Kreizman discuss Dazed and Confused (1993)! Alright, alright, alright! Follow Maris on social media at @mariskreizman | check out her newsletter at www.themarisreview.com | buy her new book I Want to Burn This Place Down wherever books are sold!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. El Camacho or put Ivan Cornejo when you get any feels, then this podcast is for you. Well, actually, Pesil was supposed to be on Chinito's album. The song with Drake was supposed to be with Pesil. Listen to Agus Sopa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't let biased algorithms, or degree screens, or exclusive professional networks, or stereotypes. Don't let anything keep you from discovering the half of the workforce who are stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time to tear the paper ceiling and see the stars beyond it. Find out how you can make stars part of your talent strategy at tearthepaperceiling.org, brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council.

Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebene, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebene, and every Tuesday, I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that will challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private

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Ta-da! We're going on tour. That was supposed to be the intro to the Star Wars theme song. Did you get that? It sounded like I was going, ta-da. Okay. Jamie and Caitlin here, we're going on tour

and we're not going on tour just anywhere. We're going on tour in the Midwest and soon. Why did I make the Star Wars noise? Well, it's because we're covering the Star Wars prequels. If you haven't seen them, we're gonna just cover all three at once. You know, it's gonna be fine. If you have seen them, you're gonna be so mad at us.

There's been so much talk about the prequels over the years, often on podcasts we really like, often by writers we really like, but never from an intersectional feminist perspective. And so we're going on this tour to quickly realize why that is. So true. And also some people love these movies.

I know. I don't quite get it, but we'll explore why at the shows. They're so soapy. I kinda like it, yeah. So you can see us discuss all three prequels in one show. In fabulous outfits. In wonderful cosplay, you don't wanna miss this, among many other things that you will see,

because we've pulled out all the stops for our live shows. Oh, we do. It's embarrassing, what we do. We do. Oh, we do. It's embarrassing what we do. We do fanfic. I edit little videos that I insist on screening. We do trivia. I usually do some piece of performance art that no one asked for.

It's a spectacle, let me tell you. It's all happening. So we will be doing all of that and more at the following cities. We will be in Indianapolis for Let's Fest on Saturday, August 30th for a matinee show. And then Jamie, you have a solo show that evening that can't be missed.

Also at the Fountain Square Theater called Jamie Loftus and Her Pet Rock Solved the World's Problems in which that will happen. I can't wait. Then the next day, the very next day, we are going to Chicago. You asked, we listened. We will be at the Den Theater on August 31st.

That show is going to start around 7, 7 15 PM. It's an evening show, a sexy little evening show. We're so excited to go to Chicago and the Den Theater is so beautiful. So Chicagoans do not miss it. And then. Then we will be in Madison, Wisconsin on Thursday, September 4th.

I believe that's a 7.30 show and we're so excited to be in Madison. And then finally, we will be ending the tour in Minneapolis, Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theatre on Sunday September 7th. That is another evening show it starts at 7 o'clock and that is where we're ending our grand tour of the Midwest. So if you have been one of the many people asking us to come to your town for the last 10 years we're doing it we would love to see you.

The shows are super fun. As we've said, if you're a matron specifically, if you're a member of our Patreon, aka Matrion, you get a free little gift at the merch table when you come to say hi after the show. It's a blast. It's going to be a super good time. We love seeing you. You can get all tickets on our Linktree at linktree slash Bechdelcast. Exsqueeze me, we'll see you there. What was that a Jar Jar impression? I did, yeah, I went there. Wow, enjoy the episode.

The Bechdelcast. All right, all right, all right. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the line. I guess. I guess that's the line. I guess. I guess that's the line. I'd rather say that than some of the other choice words from this movie. What do you mean?

Welcome to the Bechdel cast. I was going to say, we're your disgusting older friends. No, we're your... We're your cool older friends. We're your mature friends who don't show up at parties we don't belong at. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the

Bechdel test as a jumping off point. And Jamie, tell me what that is. Well, we're going to actually need the Bechtel test today. There are certain movies where you're like, oh, we can kind of glaze over it. I think the Bechtel test was actually created for this exact kind of movie. So the Bechtel test is a media match created by queer cartoonist, Alison Bechtel, with her friend, Liz Wallace, which is why it's often correctly called the Bechtel Wallace test. I can't stop

thinking about we recently had Alison Bechtel on the show and we're like, where is Liz Wallace? And she's like, I don't know. I met her at a karate class and we lost touch. And you're like, okay. Wow. Wow. I love that. Anyways, they co-created this test together, Anyways, they co-created this test together originally as a way of commenting on how there was no queer representation for primarily women in movies, but it has since become a larger more mainstream media metric, which means it's been hetero normative-ified. Here's the version of the test we use. Our version of the test requires that two characters with names who are of a marginalized gender speak to each other

about something that isn't a man. And this movie is really going to stretch this test to its very limits. Like many 90s movies, I feel like most of the arguably, but spassing things are women being horrible to each other, which technically counts, but spiritually, it doesn't. We'll get into it. It's the dazed and confused episode. I don't know how it took us nine years. I mean, one could even say avoidance. We might have been avoiding it for this whole time. I feel like pre pandemic, we scheduled a live show in Austin. And I think we were considering covering this movie.

I think we ultimately were like, we should do whip it instead. And then it doesn't matter. The whole show got canceled because of COVID. But we were, we were like, hmm, dazed and confused. Maybe this is the time. And then, you know, five years passed. So now we're doing it. Five years. We don't talk about that. We have an incredible guest here today.

Let's get her in here. Let's do it. She's the author of the book, I Want to Burn This Place Down. Great title. It's Maris Kreisman. Hello. Hi.

Welcome. What an honor to be here. Oh my gosh. Thanks for coming. Before we get into the dazed and confused of it all, tell us more about your book. Yeah. It's an essay collection about all of the things I want to burn down basically. And if you take a look at the world right now, you might have a few items on your list too. Certainly. So it's basically about all of the institutions and ideas that I used to revere that I just no longer do because they have not worked. It is a great book.

Thank you. And speaking of things that you might want to burn down. Yeah. Dazed and confused? I don't want to put words in your mouth. Yeah. We don't know that you might want to burn down, dazed and confused, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Yeah, we don't know how you feel about this movie. So to start, what is your history with this movie? What's your relationship with this movie? So I'm a little bit older than you.

And this is important because I had just started high school when this movie came out. So for the longest time, I was like, well, that's what high school's supposed to be like. You know? Like, if that's not an accurate depiction of high school, then what's going on? I guess I should say too that at that time, yes, I had a strong desire to fit in. Sure. So I absolutely understood why hazing is so exciting to some people. Let's say that. Yeah.

I mean, characteristic of so many movies from this era about teens is like, yeah, this is how high school is. And isn't that awesome, actually? Yes. Right. That's what is like one of the many tricky elements of this movie, where it's like, to some extent, like there is some scary, realistic stuff that does happen in high schools and like dynamics that I recognize, but they're just kind of presented without comment.

And that's being generous because there's almost like aspirational to be like, you're going to if Parker Posey, I mean, it's a bad example because I would let Parker Posey scream at me in a parking lot and cover me in ketchup. I mean, absolutely. And like, that would kind of be like a kinky day for me. Yeah. But but theoretically, you know, it's just like, and this is what and isn't that cool? It's like, I don't know, there's like fun nostalgia vibes, because it's clearly based on Richard Linklater's childhood to the point where there was a lawsuit about it, which I'm excited to talk about. Wow.

Oh, I don't know that part. Basically he used the I mean, it was a bunk lawsuit, and probably more embarrassing that they even filed it. But there were three of his former classmates, their last names are Watterson, Slater and Floyd and they filed a defamation lawsuit against Richard Linklater. And it's like, guys, you just pretend to say, I haven't seen it. Yeah. But then also Dick Link, don't use real people's names. Like have some creativity.

Yeah, that's names. Like, have some creativity. Yeah, that's weird. Well, unless he actually did base them on those guys, then there's a guy named Wooderson who should feel like a piece of shit. I mean, true. Yeah. I'm kind of on the fence.

Sure. Sure. Jamie, what's your relationship with this movie? Not very much. I saw this movie once in college, and this is just like not my kind of movie. I felt the same way about, what's the George Lucas version of this movie?

American Graffiti. Yes, where it's like a director in his 30s making a movie about like, high school was so fucking cool, man. It's just like never been my bag at all. Also has has to do with that I was a total fucking dork. So I'm sure that there's like an internal, like I didn't find it aspirational to like watch party movies. I think it just reminded me of parties I was not invited to.

So I don't have a lot of history with this movie. I do have a lot of history with Richard Linklater. Yes. He directed my favorite movie of all time, School of Rock. But the thing with Richard Linklater is that he has such range that you can also really hate some of his movies. I wouldn't say I hate this movie. I definitely don't like it. I didn't know Ben Affleck was in it. And I guess that that's a pertinent thought.

I mean, there are a lot of cameos to talk about. Yeah, because I kept being like, there's no way. But then by the third time, you're like, no, that is that is Ben Affleck pre veneers. That's why you didn't recognize him. It's hard to recognize him with his original teeth. You had to like, go back to the 90s. But yeah, Mr. Duncan himself in Texas.

Maybe he's doing a better job at acting because we talked about this in our Gone Girl episode, but like having to suspend my disbelief to be like, yeah, Ben Affleck lives in Missouri. Sure. It wouldn't happen. All I'd say I don't really care for this movie. But I am excited to talk about it. And I also get why people like it. Yeah. Yeah. I think if I had seen this at like at the right time, it would have it would have hit better for me. I don't know. Caitlin, what's your history with this movie? Pretty similar to yours, Jamie. I saw it during the great Caitlin movie binge of 2005. When I was a freshman in college that is watching just like a bazillion movies and I never returned to it since until prepping for this episode

because it clearly did not appeal to me enough to revisit it. I think it's an interesting concept in theory. I mean I don't I like a day in the life of an ensemble cast of characters. It kind of reminded me of what's that other teen movie where they go to a party for the whole time and we covered it recently. Can't hardly wait. Yes, exactly. What is that movie Tower Records?

Empire Records. Empire Records. With some of the cast, in fact. Some of the same cast, yes. A similar kind of like hang 90s movie. I don't know. I never, I can't juggle the 90s hang. Even though this is the 70s, it's the 90s. Well, I'm going to be your normie friend. No, this is good. I mean, like I want to, I don't know. Yeah. I like a lot of movies that aren't, I mean, people love this movie though. That's the other thing is like this is a good movie. I'm told.

It's like well crafted. It's just that most of the characters are absolutely despicable and very hard to root for. Sure. Looking at it through a 2025 lens. Which is true of a lot of high schoolers to this day. Yeah. Absolutely. But I even feel like the hazing stuff felt like in the 90s, okay? Question mark. Yeah. And now it's just so loaded with Trump and ICE and all of these terrible things that like I can't, it's hard to go back and be like, oh yeah, that was cool. Right. Yeah.

So anyway, I saw it for the first time back in the day about 20 years ago and I too find Dick Link, aka Richard Linklater, a versatile director in that sometimes I love his movies, aka the Before trilogy, and sometimes I don't love his movies, aka Dazed and Confused. But we'll talk more. In the meantime, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the recap. The summer of 1993 was one of the best of my life. I'm journalist Jeff Perlman, and this is Rick Jervis. We were interns at the Nashville Tennessean, but the most unforgettable part? Our roommate, Reggie Payne, from Oakley, sports editor and aspiring rapper.

And his stage name? Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. His mom called 911. Police cuffed him face down. He slipped into a coma and died.

I'm like thanking you. But then I see my son's not moving. No headlines. No outrage, just silence. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A foot washed up, a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.

These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA. Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues and evidence so tiny you might just miss it. He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha.

On America's crime lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors. and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at Authram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth?

Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York state number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months The first night was so overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you And we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything Listen to shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts

So what happened at chapiquitic well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown. There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News. It's, Teddy escapes, Blonde drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you the story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president? Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal.

The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Okay. And we're back. Okay, so preface for the recap. There's like 8000 characters in this movie.

A lot of stuff happens. I'm going to kind of like skip over some stuff, but I feel like I've got the core beats. So this movie is basically a day in the life of a bunch of teens on their last day of school in Austin, Texas in 1976. It is mostly teens who are about to be seniors and then a few kids who are about to be freshmen. We meet a character named Pink. He's the quarterback of the football team but he's also hanging out with stoner kids like Slater played by Rory Cochran, which is one of the actors in Empire Records, as well as a kid named Pickford who is throwing an end of school party that night.

Pink is also friends with a group of like, I guess kind of bookish teens who play poker together. Featuring another recent actor on the pod, Anthony Rapp. Oh. Anthony Rapp's jawline in the 90s was like, hard to wrap your head around. Like, it's just in a good way, but you're like, whoa, how is this physically possible? Sure. Yeah, we talked about him on our recent episode on adventures in babysitting.

He plays a character named Tony. And then we also have Mike, played by Adam Goldberg, as well as Cynthia, played by Marissa Robisi, who is Giovanni Robisi's twin sister. Yeah, Mrs. Scientology herself. Exactly. Oh, are they Scientologists? Oh yeah. Yes they are. Lifelong. Good grief. Well, shit.

Anyway, so we have those trio of characters. We meet some more football players like Don, Benny? Name a generic white guy name. It's someone in the movie. And then we'll eventually meet O'Banion, which is Ben Affleck's character. And the two things with the football players are that they're debating on whether or not

to sign this pledge from their coach that they won't drink or do drugs over the summer. And the other thing is that they're obsessed with beating the shit out of freshmen. Those are the two things. Like above anything else in their lives. Yeah, I knew older kids that really thrived when bullying others. And not to hand it to them, but they usually did have like a second thing they did. But Obede, like it's no wonder he was held back. He treats it like a job. Full-time job. Yeah.

I've never seen a class of almost seniors pay so much attention to freshmen ever in my entire life. Right. Well, actually, this is a good point to ask. What were your respective high school experiences? Because my high school was really big. And so this might have happened, but it would have been with a specific social group, like no one knew who each other was. And I am grateful for that because I think I would have been bullied worse

if I wasn't a small school and people could keep track of you. But like there were 5,000 kids. So, wow. Well, oh my God. If someone was giving you a hard time, you just sort of had to wait. You'd lose them eventually.

My high school experience was kind of bizarre. We had grades seven through 12 all in the same building. Oh, that's a lot. Oh, whoa. So we had like 12 year olds going to school alongside 18 year olds. That doesn't sound smart. It was bizarre. And it was very small, I would say it was probably only about, it was like usually a hundred or a hundred and twenty students per graduating class. So what's that like

800, 700 kids. And I was a weird mix of like, I was kind of a jock honestly, but not like a toxic bullying kind. I just like played a lot of sports, but then I was also like a mathlete. And I don't know, I like ran in a few different circles. That's the key. If you're a teenager, that's the key. Cause I did like dorky stuff, all of it possible, but I also was on the dance team.

And I feel like that was my saving grace. Sure. At the end of the day where there was one thing that was quote unquote socially acceptable. Right. Just have one socially acceptable skill. Yeah. Maris, how about you? I was a theater kid. Nice.

But I also, I felt like a lot of high school for sure passed me by. Mm-hmm. Probably for the best. I think that's probably for the best. Yeah, as I was just saying, it's like I enjoyed high school more than I enjoyed college, which I think is unusual. Yeah. But I do feel like really thriving in either of those spaces is like dream bigger.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Which is like sort of the ethos at the end of like dream bigger. Yeah. Which is like sort of the ethos at the end of the movie where what's his face pink is like, if I ever say that these are the best years of my life, like that fucking sucks. And then the other kid is like, well, yeah, but I'm gonna make the best of my time here

while I'm stuck here. And it's like, yeah, but also your idea of like make the best of my time here while I'm stuck here." And it's like, yeah, but also your idea of like making the best of it is beating the shit out of children. So we're not too sure about that. Yeah, I have some notes. Okay, so yeah, that's the whole thing with these like senior football players is that they relentlessly bully and physically abuse children. And there's one kid in particular who they're after, Mitch, and then he has a few like freshman boy pals who are also targets.

And the seniors chase these freshmen to one of the boys houses, but the kid's mom pulls a shotgun on Ben Affleck's character. One of my favorite moments in the movie I think. One of the only moments when there's an adult who does something, so that's fun. I know! Right? And the thing with Obanion, Ben Affleck's character, is that he's like particularly

thirsty for the blood of children. Anyway, make no mistake, the boys aren't the only ones terrorizing younger people because meanwhile the senior girls, such as characters played by Parker Posey and Mila Jovovich is there, there, among others. Wilds. They are also bullying slash hazing freshmen girls by squirting, I would say, hot dog condiments onto them. I was thinking about it. I was like, ultimately it's corndog coated because of the flour.

Ah. I see. Yes. And they're frying in the sun. I saw the vision for this vicious bullying. Yeah. I saw the vision, I think. They're at least creative about it.

Yeah. But then they get put on leashes towards the end of the frying. Yeah. And that seems to have nothing to do with corndogs at all. No. And then they just kind of start freewheeling it. It's so, like, I was reading about just, like, general production stuff,

especially when it's, like, earlier in a director's career. I'm like, I think that they just had to do that. And that is, in fact, what happened. They, like, were in a hot parking lot, not wearing sunscreen, having ketchup poured all over them. And you're just like, Dick, Dick. Come on, Dave. Come on. You can't actually turn your young actors into hot dogs.

It's a bad look. Yeah. Anyway, so we meet some of these girls. And if you're wondering if we will really get to know any of them, well, the answer is no. Aside from kind of Parker Posey, but not really. And then also this freshman girl Sabrina, who ends up linking up with a senior boy Tony, the Anthony Rapp character. And we can talk more about that. But basically, Sabrina ends up kind of befriending this senior

girl Jodie, where it's that idea that if the younger teens can withstand the hazing from the older kids Then they're cool enough to hang around the seniors so then Slater and pink head to Pickford's house He's the one who's throwing the party that night because his parents are heading out of town Pickford's house, he's the one who's throwing the party that night because his parents are heading out of town. But then the beer keg delivery guy shows up early and Pickford's dad realizes what's going on. So his parents decide to stay home and Pickford has to cancel the party.

I guess that's the second responsible parent. He's scary. Yes. Yeah. But that is, I guess, responsible parent number two. Right. Maybe the final one. Right. And now this means that all of the other teens have to figure out something else to do that night.

Some of them just kind of drive around for a while. The football players head to the freshman's baseball game to go after Mitch. They capture him and beat him with a paddle. Then Pink, who goes easy on Mitch, invites him to hang. There's like a similar dynamic between Jodie and Sabrina where Pink kind of befriends Mitch. And then he and Wooderson, the Matthew McConaughey character, who is famously a lot older than the high school kids that he hangs out with, they take Mitch to this like pool hall place where Mitch meets a sophomore girl, Julie, who he thinks is cute. Meanwhile, the freshman boys minus Mitch, so like just Mitch's friends, are leaving

a junior high dance ready to become men, aka they're ready to objectify women even harder. Yeah, this is another movie where I think it's not the worst offender of this by far. And I'm curious what you both think about it because I'm like, I feel like it's another movie where it's not the worst offender of this by far. And I'm curious what you both think about it, because I'm like, I feel like it's maybe a teeny bit aware of it, but then later, not as much. But how like all of the boys treat girls horrible at one point or another. I think that ultimately, unfortunately, Richard Linklater's allegiance is still with the nerdy guys, even though they do say and do many of the same things that the jocks are doing, they're just more aware of it.

Which kind of makes it worse, which is the thing that we talk about all the time with these 80s, 90s stock, 2000s stock geek characters that like get the girl because, and this is a generalization, but it is true, dorks are the ones that end up directing movies. And so that's why you see that so often. There's an element of wish fulfillment. I can say that because I'm one of them, fulfillment, I can say that because I'm one of them. But that they are kind of behaving similar if not identically to the antagonist jocks. It's almost like the logic is, yeah, the nerds are similarly toxic and horrible toward girls

and women, but they do it a little differently than the jocks, so it's actually fine. They put a little intellectual twist on misogyny, and we love that. I'm going to give them one credit, which is that they do hang out with the Marisa Robisi character. Yes. And she is an equal-ish character. Yeah, she is one of the women or the, you know, teen girls who gets more characterized than the others.

I wish that Richard Linklater had more of an interest in that character because I feel like there's a lot going on with her that I felt like in a good and bad way, kind of not seen, but like, we'll get to. Specifically when the McConaughey character starts to hit on her. It's not dealt with well in the movie, but that's a dynamic that happened for sure, is dorky girl or art girl feeling recognized and attractive to an older person

who is ultimately taking advantage of her. That happens all the time. If only he had interest in exploring how complicated and toxic those dynamics are. Right. Rather than just being like she won. Right. That is where they leave it. And she's going to the Aerosmith concert. He's like he's 55 years. It's a while because it's like they have to keep calling Matthew McConaughey old because he is basically everyone else's age. I didn't realize that Joey Lauren Adams is older than him. By a year.

And Parker Posey too. Yeah. So it's like Matthew McConaughey, I think they like, they make him up well, but he is 24 in this movie. You shouldn't be hanging out with high schoolers, but they talk about him like he's like their parents. Yeah, because they're like, he graduated high school when we were three.

It was like brutal. I know, I was like, was that hyperbole or not? Hard to say. Probably, but. In any case, we're with the freshmen boys for a moment, and then O'Banion and some of the other football players start chasing them down and they catch and flog a kid named Hirschfelder who had just been making out at the junior high dance.

STACEY With a girl who clearly stuffs her bra with two pairs of socks. Yeah. Wild. Good for her. Then we cut to, I think, the pool hall again, where a bunch of teens are. It's hard to keep track of who everyone is and where they are. Yeah. It is a vibes movie. So vibes.

Yeah. You're just like, eh. At some point, the characters started blurring together, and I'm like, I have to be okay with this. Well, so many of them look alike. They all have a very similar hairstyle. Bell bottoms. Same clothes. Yeah. Way too many of them are white people. So yeah, but this is the part of the movie where Wooderson, aka Matthew McConaughey's character says the infamous line of, I get older, but high school girls stay the same

age. The line that launched a thousand products at Spencer's gifts. Yikes. Okay. So then the football boys and Mitch drive around, they smash some mailboxes and car windows for fun. Then a man whose mailbox was smashed comes after them with a gun.

He's shooting at them. They speed away and they head back to the pool hall where this guy named Melvin has Mitch buy him a six pack of beer. And Mitch is able to convince the store clerk that he's 18, even though he's visibly 14. He's So young. I feel like the seniors look like grown adults and the freshmen are children.

Yeah. And yet somehow, was the legal age 18, drinking age back then? In the 70s. Yeah, it was. I had to look this up. Okay. That makes it a little bit What is the year that changed?

1984 I think okay, cuz I think but yeah, I'm pretty sure that my dad Was cool in high school, which is like so weird to think about Because I would say he's a very uncool adult, but this is like literally exactly when my parents were in high school. My dad used to throw house parties. He was famous for throwing house party ragers. I was like, whoa. I know. He was the Pickford of the group, I guess.

None of this trickled down in the bloodline. The wanting to be at a party really did not get down to being my brother. But I do remember that they used to be like, we just got in under the wire. We could drink when we were 18 and rim rim rim. Because my aunt was like younger than him and she was able to drink and then she wasn't. She was like this cusp. And she took that personally. Right.

So Mitch was able to buy this beer. His friends approach him outside the liquor store to be like, hey, let's get back at Ben Affleck for kicking our asses. And they pour a bucket of paint on him, on the O'Banion character, and he's humiliated. He freaks out and storms off and then at some point Wooderson announces that there's a party later on at the Moon Tower then he bumps into Cynthia and Mike and Tony while they're driving around and Wooderson takes a liking to Cynthia. And she's into it, though her friends, Mike and Tony,

are like, ooh, that guy's a creep. He's way older than you. And she's like, ha ha, so what? I actually thought that scene was, again, like a missed opportunity because it did feel like, again, like a real life dynamic of the guys are like, that's so fucked up. You would, and then ultimately they're going to go

with where the social capital is. So of course, they're always go with where the social capital is so of course they're always gonna do it right which is a very unfortunately teenage thing right cuz that scene ends with well are we still gonna go to the party and they're like yeah let's go yeah but is there commentary no I mean that's that's the whole problem is like you're like and here's this thing you probably recognize. I don't have anything to say about it, but there it is. You're like, okay, cool.

Yeah. Then we cut to everyone arriving at the party at the Moon Tower. Mike gets in a little tiff with some aggro dude named Clint. I am sorry to announce that I looked him up because he was in a lot of Dick's movies and he died by suicide last year. Oh, that's horrible. Sorry, that brought it down. No, I mean, his character will later beat the shit out of Mike in a scene that again,

there could have been more commentary on the Mike character because he starts out kind of one way and then he almost like arcs over the course of this one day where he's like you know what I'm gonna lean into being toxic and shitty and then he incites this this fight with this guy so that that happens other things are happening such as So that happens. Other things are happening, such as Tony and Sabrina link up. This is the kind of bookish Anthony Rapp character, who is a senior and Sabrina is a freshman. Then we've got Pink having to decide if he's

going to quit football or not. And then he also cheats on his girlfriend, Simone, with Jodie and we're sort of like, who are either of those people? I know, I wouldn't have known. I wouldn't have known a thing. I was like, I think they both had brown hair. No, one of them is blonde.

They didn't know. Joey Lauren Adams has a higher voice. That's how you know. Yeah, she has a soft voice I wrote down. Cause I had to literally, like, I hate doing this, but to differentiate the teen girls in this movie, I was like, yeah, she's the one with longish blonde hair. And then this other one is the one with shorter blonde hair. And then this one is the redheaded one. Because we know so little about each one that you sort of have no choice but to identify them by their hair color. Anyway, that's happening. Mitch is flirting with Julie, that sophomore girl. Then the party winds down and a few of the teens head to the football field to

smoke weed. The cops bust them, I think. I'm pretty checked out at this point, honestly. The next morning, the coach berates Pink for hanging out with his stoner friends. And Pink is like, you know what? Screw you, man. And I think that's the climax of the movie. A thing that I realized I misremembered about the film was watching it this time. I thought that Pink had like a kind of the graduate moment at the end, like makes a decision and then has a moment of doubt. But there's nothing on his face at all. Nope, he's just not reflecting, I think, at all. I feel like you could definitely see it both ways. I didn't feel strongly about it either

way. I could see that, like, I don't know, it feels like where Pink lands is that he probably still wants to play football, but he doesn't want to, like, have the terms dictated to him? Right, I mean, you could look at it like this is a story about a kid who is like trying to defy the sort of authoritarian control of the older generation and like push society or at least his football team's dynamic in a more progressive way. But on the other hand, it's like the big arc of this movie is the star quarterback of the football team deciding to like say, fuck you to his coach. And it's sort of like cool story, bro.

Like, it's not... And he decides to do drugs and drink instead, which is a win. Yeah. And cheat on his girlfriend. So, you know, could have been slightly more meaningful, but here we are. And then the movie basically ends with Pink and his girlfriend Simone and Wooderson and Slater just driving around and smoking doobies. Going to the Aerosmith concert. Yeah. Woo!

The end. So let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss. ["The Fire and the Fire"] A foot washed up, a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA.

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get your podcasts. So, what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown. There's a famous headline, I think in the New York Daily News, it's, Teddy escapes, blonde drowns.

And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you. The story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president? Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal. The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it.

So is there a curse? Every week, we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. The summer of 1993 was one of the best of my life. I'm journalist Jeff Perlman, and this is Rick Jervis.

We were interns at the Nashville Tennessean, but the most unforgettable part, our roommate, Reggie Payne, from Oakley, sports editor and aspiring rapper. And his stage name, Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February, 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode.

His mom called 911. Police cuffed him face down. He slipped into a coma and died. I'm like thanking you, but then I see my son's not moving. No headlines, no outrage, just silence. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal bootcamp designed to be hell on earth. Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York state number, and we own you.

Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him

the next six months. The first night was so overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you. And we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything. Listen to Shock Incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Where shall we start?

Maris, is there anything that jumps out to you? I want to always start with Parker Posey in this because another thing I misremembered was how much of the movies she's in. She's like a very secondary character. Yeah. Third character. Tertiary, yeah. Tertiary. And yet I just, she is so memorable. When I think of the movie, I think of her first.

And then to realize that aside from the one scene with the hazing, she doesn't really get to do anything. Yeah. Which is sort of all of the women in the movie, as we were already hinting at. Yeah. I found it was almost a 10-year-old article. But I thought it was interesting. It was a bitch media article about sort of how women are

portrayed throughout Richard Linklater's catalog. Obviously, there's a lot of variance because his movies are so, like, he also did the before trilogy. But men are definitely at the center of his movies, especially his comedies. And it's especially because it's like there are women in this movie. But when you bounce back and forth constantly, like we do from like cars full of boys and cars full of girls, it's just so obvious who he's interested in. Because one of the most bummer things, because there was a scene that I was like, ugh, I wish that there was more,

the scene you get where Parker Posey and Joey Adams are in the car and they're like, what did they call me? Well, he called you a bitch and he called, she called you a slut or whatever. And it's just like the most, it feels improvised and it turns out it's because it was improvised. Parker Posey asked if they could just film something because so much of the scenes with the girls

had been cut out of the movie that I think kind of in an act of desperation, she's like, here, just let's do this. And they like improvised that whole scene, which is why it's kind of like half baked and sloppy. Good for her. Right, I was like, in retrospect, I'm like, I guess I am glad that's there

because it was almost replaced with nothing. And it seems like, yeah, the citation was a book that I don't have, but they do cite a book that references the production of this movie where Richard Linklater basically admits that he cut out, because they shot a lot for this movie because it was so loose, the actors had a lot of say in what their characters said and did,

like most of his movies. And then he just ended up cutting into the scenes with the women pretty intensely. And you can tell. You can tell, because where are they? Uh... There are a lot of them, but none of them necessarily. Aside from Parker Posey, and that might just be because we already, like, with this hindsight, Where are they? Yeah. There are a lot of them, but none of them necessarily.

Aside from Parker Posey, and that might just be because we already, like with this hindsight, we know who Parker Posey is and we know how dynamic of an actor she is and how memorable of a presence she can have on screen. But like, again, her character is given basically nothing. All the other teen girl characters are given less, basically nothing. All the other teen girl characters are given less. Basically nothing. We might learn some of their names, other names we don't know. The Mila Jovovich character doesn't even say a single word. Again, Richard Linklater said she didn't really gel with the group and so he cut all of her scenes. She had an arc and he just cut it.

And I was like, it's Mila Jovovich, it's your fault. You know, write a better character. Yeah. And you know, she ended up marrying the guy who played her boyfriend in real life. Oh, I didn't know that. When she was like still a teenager, you know, because she was I think 16 when the movie was shot. Oh my god.

So she obviously vibed well with someone somewhere, you know, because she was, I think, 16 when the movie was shot. Oh, my God. So she obviously vibed well with someone somewhere, you know? Right. Is it Pickford who she's dating, the kid who was supposed to throw the party? Yes. I think that's who she's like with. But it's also hard. It took me forever to figure that out because when she's on screen, she's not saying anything or do it.

She does paint those like kiss statues. Yeah, but that's sort of it. And then yeah, the other characters like, there will be like an interesting moment here or there, but they're so fleeting, especially compared to how the men are characterized that you kind of forget who was that girl again? And what's her thing? There's a part where one of the girls, which one I don't remember her name, if she even has a name, but she's talking about how Gilligan's Island is this like pornographic fantasy for men because she's like, yeah, it's, you know, these male characters being stranded on an island with a sexy lady and then like an approachable girl next door type. So you got the Madonna whore complex. And that's like an interesting start to examining media. Right. We don't need high school girls to be operating at PhD analysis levels. They're talking. Right.

And then but her friends are just like, whatever, I thought the captain was sexy. And then like, end of scene, we never see her again. Maybe, I don't even know. I think she shows up at the party, but she, cause I remember pink pants. Oh, okay. Okay.

That's, that was my. That's the North Star. Pink pants, short, dark brown bob, I think is how we know her. There were these scenes that felt I mean, I think the reason that this movie is tricky to cover on this show specifically is because I don't think that this move like part of the approach to this movie is that it isn't trying to comment on anything really and like reading about how Richard Linklater was making this it seems like that is very tied into what the movie is supposed to be but even so it's like the

men have stories that start and end. Like even though the stories are relatively low stakes, like whatever, that's great. But like how Pink is supposed to sign the piece of paper. And at the end he says, fuck the piece of paper, I don't wanna sign it. Mitch, he has a whole arc of like, this is his first party. And it's like, if there are women who have arcs,

it's generally like it ends with them kissing Anthony wrap. Like, is there any other girl besides Sabrina? Is she the only technically the only woman or girl in the movie that has like an arc that starts and ends? I think so. I would argue that maybe Cynthia, she is the redhead. Oh yes.

Oh, I guess, I guess she, but also it is just tied to like, and then I met a guy. A guy who is, this is the one of the like very obvious things for us to talk about on this show as far as his famous line of, oh, that's what I love about high school girls. I get older, they stay the same age. And that is something that, you know, a statutory rapist might say. ? Right, which is the joke, unfortunately.

It's the joke, and the girls are interchangeable to him and to the film. Like, that is part of it it too. And then I always get caught up in the, what is he saying? Right. Right. I think part of the reason that that character has the legacy that it does is because of the approach that Richard Linklater takes is he's just presenting this guy and not commenting on this type of guy at all, which makes it really easy for like Spencer's gift stores for decades to come to just be like, this guy's awesome.

That must have been what he was saying. I was like looking into the cast because they cast mostly locally for this movie. And I was like, I don't think I've seen the actress who plays Sabrina and anything else. And it's because she quit acting in the late 90s and became an anti-war activist. Oh, wow. Oh, that's cool. And she is to this day. So good for Kristen Hinajusa. Nice. But in any case, it's almost hard. It's like, it's hard to think of something to say about the Matthew McConaughey character that probably hasn't been said already, but like, I tend to agree.

I guess. I don't know. Well, there's like a quick moment as he's gearing up to spew his rapey rhetoric that one of the characters, I think it's Don maybe or someone, says to the Wooderson character like, oh, you're gonna end up in jail sometime soon because of his interest in minors. But that's such a throwaway line. It's not what anyone remembers. It's not like challenging his behavior nearly enough. Similar, there's a part where the senior girls are hazing the freshman girls

and making them like propose to senior boys and being like, I'll do anything, spit or swallow whatever. And then Slater says, oh, that's so degrading. But he's also like laughing as he's saying this and again, not challenging any one of his friends. And then later that same character says, the girls in our class are all prudes, worthless little bitches. Right. So... You know, there's one thing I want to go back to with Wooderson.

And maybe this is me just trying, like, being generous. But I thought that when he walks into the pool hall and the song that's playing is Dylan's hurricane. And he's walking in there so seriously that you are meant to be laughing at him there. I could see that. I could too, yeah. But also that is possibly a generous read. Well, I've tried to think of other characters that meet this. This isn't a good comparison.

Goodfellas. Go with Be Here. Characters that the director doesn't necessarily respect or be like, look at this awesome guy, but that's the cultural takeaway. I think there's an argument for that here. But I also feel like Richard Linklater is saying, because in Goodfellas, Scorsese is like, these guys are bad. These guys are fucking their lives up.

And Richard Linklater is sort of, yeah, again, it's tricky because he's just like, here's this guy. What do you think of him? Which is an approach, but... I did keep waffling back and forth on this where I was like, okay, is this commentary in the sense that it is presenting very obviously shitty and abusive behavior? And then we're just sort of meant to like, take this in as the audience and be like, yes, that's super shitty.

Or is it simply just presenting it and being like, pretty wild teenagers in the 70s, huh? But I ultimately concluded that it's sort of like a history was written by the victors, where like the ruling class of a typical American high school is the characters who are the most focused on in this movie, you know, the football playing jocks, the pretty popular people who tend to abuse their high social status. Not all of them, you know, that's a sweeping generalization, but it's pretty common, and there's a reason a lot of movies are about it. But again, yeah, it just feels to me ultimately like

the movie is presenting this, just being like, yeah, kids got into some bad stuff and maybe even some of them deserve to be punished, such as Obanian. Like he gets his comeuppance by having the paint dumped on him and he's humiliated. But also it feels like the movie treats him almost like, well, yeah, he's the one bad apple but the other jock bullies are nice, actually, maybe, because they befriend the kids who they beat the shit out of. Here's a question.

I feel like when I first saw this movie, I thought, is there a high school fraternity and sorority system? Is there a Greek system? What are they being hazed for? And if they're being hazed, how do they choose which people get hazed? With the guys, it's a little easier because you see sports and you can imagine that they then grow up to play on the same teams. But how is Parker Posey yelling at a random 13 year old? She literally just goes up to Sabrina, who is not yet participating in the Being Hazed.

She's chosen. Yeah. Basically because she's like, she's attractive. If she wants to be popular, if she wants to have all this social capital, then she has to be hazed, because that means we'll take her under our wing and haze her, but then ultimately befriend her, I guess? I was also kind of puzzled by that to the point where I was like, is it a small town thing? Is it a 70s thing? Is it completely made up? Any of these answers could be true. I don't yeah, because it is like the girls are being hazed for something way more general. Yeah, this behavior like it's horrible wherever it is, but it would make more sense in college to me. Yeah. And even just the paddles, the paddles are very Greek. Yes. Yeah. I didn't get it. And then there's like that scene where Anthony Rapp is like,

they're selling concessions. I'm like, they're selling concessions at the hazing ritual. I guess I was like, if that's a thing, my school is different. I don't know. Like kids got beat up. Like there was bullying, but there weren't concessions. That's wild. Yeah, I'm not sure. But those are some of the few characters who do challenge the behavior of the kids with higher social status around them. And it's predominantly Mike, the Adam Goldberg character, who's like, it's so wild that our school and the entire community seems to just support these hazing rituals. He and Tony ask Sabrina why she would subject herself to this.

She kind of has no answer. We can presume she wants to fit in and make friends, but there are some of the few characters who are actually challenging this. But then that culminates in Tony kissing a girl who's four years younger than her. And in high school, when those four years of development emotionally and like psychologically make a huge difference, like that is an age gap that I am not okay with. But this happens in like three or four different dynamics throughout the movie where a much

older person gets with a much younger person. Yes. I mean, that's the like Wooderson and yeah, yeah, Robici. Sorry to keep calling her Robici. But that's presented with like no commentary, just like, yeah, this is how it is. Right. But that's presented with like no commentary, just like, yeah, this is how it is. Right. And do I believe that happened in the 70s? Yes. But again, that's the risk of just showing without comment. It feels like a tacit or overt kind of endorsement of like, nothing wrong with this.

And again, it's like there are interesting dynamics, not with the age gap relationships. I'm talking more about like with the Mike character. Again, it wouldn't have been unusual to see that dynamic that we saw of like, this is so fucked up, but I'm too scared to personally do anything about it. Right. That is definitely a relatable thing. But again, it's just like, it doesn't go anywhere. It just sort of like, I guess I just don't really like this approach to filmmaking. I also wonder though, like, I mean, and this might be true for so many different 90s films, but the age I was when I first saw this movie, I didn't have the vocabulary to express why this made me feel weird.

Yeah. You know, anti-bullying wasn't a thing. Like, that was... Right. Or like, it wasn't... Bullying was just something that happened. And I wonder if there was just so much less demand for him to be this self-aware back then.

That's what I kept coming back to. I would guess so because he does become, to his credit, way more self-aware in future movies. He makes way many more thoughtful movies after this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He can do it, which almost makes this movie more frustrating. He's choosing not to. Right. I guess he learns by the mid to late 90s. Well, that's something I kept coming back to where this movie was released in 1993, but it's set in 1976. So it has the benefit of over 15 years of hindsight to make

commentary if it wanted to on things like, you know, casual sexism, casual racism, casual homophobia, etc. But because it's still the early 90s when this is being written and made. And those were such culturally pervasive attitudes still at that time. Yeah, I think Dick Link just didn't have the wherewithal. No one was asking for it. Yeah, right. Right. And I guess he was like, okay, great. I guess, like, yeah. And even within this, like, style of filmmaking,

there, if he had written characters, like if he had written women that had, and it's like, who knows? Like, if those scenes possibly do exist of, is there a scene where we get more context for Parker Posey's character? Maybe, but it was all cut. And like, is there a scene where we get context for Bila Jovovich's character? It sounds like we did, but it was all gone. And so it's like, if this movie was primarily made in the editing room, that's on him. Yeah. I mean, I would say also in the 90s, the idea of a very long music video felt kind of okay and cool. And if you just show a lot of fun images and have a lot of good songs, who cared about the words?

Right. That's a great way to put it. This movie does mostly just feel like a best of compilation, like best songs of the 70s. And there's teenagers there too. Best stock characters of the 70s, scored to what had to have been a soundtrack that took up most of the budget. It did, yeah. Oh, it did.

Yep. That's really funny. Sure, I mean, I guess. But also, this is just like, I love a movie with a lot of great needle drops. But when there's too many. Yeah, it was a lot. I'm like, insecure, insecure filmmaking. If you need that many needle drops to be like, it's 1976. It's like, I could I could see that I could see. We get it. There were characters that I liked who disappeared. I thought, I mean, again, she's introduced in a very, what is this way? They have a teacher who is, we are introduced to her by, she's getting hit on by a student.

And I don't think she appropriately pushes back. She kind of rolls her eyes and is like. She I don't think she appropriately pushes back. She kind of rolls her eyes and is like... She gives them like a pat on the head. Yeah. But then she does have one of the better lines of the movie before we never see her again, where she's pushing back on celebrating the bicentennial

because it was like white slave owners who didn't want to pay their taxes. Good line. Wish we saw her again, but we didn't. Because again, just like the way that he wrote this is like, and people could just disappear at any time. Speaking of which, there's again, and I need help finding out what his name was. There's exactly one black character. Melvin. Melvin. Okay. There is exactly one black character.

Melvin. Melvin. Okay. Where again, this is an extremely white movie. And Austin in the 70s, it was majority white, but there was way more diversity than we see in this movie. It seems like they're at a public high school. It doesn't seem like Amy, it's like a middle-class public high school.

It's unrealistic that it's as white as it is. And that the one black character we get to meet is so vague. He's just like another bully. Like, we don't know anything about him except here's another bully. He's almost treated the way the teen girls are in the sense that he'll be around, we might recognize him, but he won't really say much, he won't be there super consistently, he won't have his own story arc, nothing like that. No. And again, it's like you wonder, like, is there a version of this movie where he had more screen time? Maybe, but we'll never know. But it really like that choice sticks out like a sore

thumb here. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It seems like the storylines that the movie is most interested in are Pink with his like, should I succumb to tyranny from my football coach? And Mitch, who is the freshman boy, who like shows that he's cool, actually, because he was willing to be abused by older kids and not that I'm blaming him for that because again that's this is a familiar dynamic younger people and people with lower like social status in high school will generally

do things to be accepted and to make friends and things like that. But the story is mostly interested in those two characters and not really anyone else. I mean I could see the case that Sabrina is also meant to be like the Mitch of ladies. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's again, I like Sabrina in the performance. She seems like a sweet kid. And I feel like you could feel her predicament, where especially in the scenes where she's being torn between, it sucks that she ends up with the Anthony Raab character.

Because again, you're presented with an interesting scenario of like, who does she think it's more important to impress? Boys or the girls who are like, exerting this hazing control over her? It's an interesting setup. Ginger-O-Marian, Slut-er Bitch. Right, right. And it's like, it would be interesting

if it went anywhere interesting, which it doesn't. And so then it just sort of ends up coming off kind of not as good. I don't know. Pretty flat. I feel like Cynthia also had potential. She's the like, quote unquote, guys gal who only hangs out with other boys, it seems. And again, that was a familiar situation many such cases you know it that would have been easy to explore a bit further it would have been

easy for her to not end up with a creep but again the movie didn't really have any interest in doing that but yeah she was kind of the one character who I latched on to as far as like, can we know more about her? Can we get a little bit more of her insight into the world? Because there's a scene where she and Mike and Tony are driving around and they're sort of realizing, oh, everything that we're doing is in service of the future, but like, why don't we live in the now? And maybe that's what compels her to say yes to Wooderson's advances. Maybe, I don't know.

I'm maybe not giving her enough credit. He was a cool guy. That's a cool guy. What else do you need? If a cool guy is interested in you, you show interest back? Because why be introspective about it? I mean, right, exactly. Like we are conditioned to think that older cool dudes are worthy of our attention. And if they pay attention to us, then oh my gosh, that's going to elevate

our social capital. That's going to, that like reinforces the worth of a woman, quote unquote. So yeah, the movie again, it presents that without commenting on it. But again, it was 1993. So it's just so weird that like, his movie after this is the first before movie. I always guess it wrong before sunrise. Before sunrise, yeah. Which I guess it also should be reminded that he co-wrote that movie with a woman.

So it wasn't like he suddenly grew. He had a deep understanding of women in not in 1993, but then suddenly did in 1995. But still, yeah, I just, this movie ends up, I found it very frustrating because it's not trying to say very much. Yeah. For me, it's take an edible turn on this movie,

watch the pretty people go by. It's a screensaver. Listen to some songs that are now classic rock and have an okay night. Yeah. Yeah. If you're nostalgic for the 70s, this is the movie for you. Then you're Richard Linklater. And here's this.

And here's this. Yeah. Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss? No, not a thought. It's so hard to develop a cogent thought about this movie because like nothing really happens in the movie. Yeah. Well, originally it was supposed to be a movie that took place entirely in a car.

It was only going to be a couple shots, but like a full feature still, I think. And it was just going to be characters driving around listening to an entire ZZ Top album, I think is what I read. And then Link later was like, what if I expand this to represent other points of view? And by that, I mean, teen boys who are white. So it could have been whatever the ZZ Top thing was. But yeah, that's that's pretty much all I had. I feel like we were so efficient in

got the discussion out in record time with this one. I mean, I was like, I feel like, are we missing something? There's not really a lot of, most of the behind the scenes stuff is kind of a bummer, but mostly anecdotal. Whichever characters, the characters who were getting paddled, their parents called Richard Link later and they were like, you have to tell Ben Affleck to paddle softer. He's up.

Whoa. On my son. Wow. Ben Affleck confirmed bully in real life. You have the stories about the like low budget nightmare fuel of like, nope, we actually made teenage girls flop around in a hot parking lot in the sun and we forgot to give them sunscreen, very indie filmmaker horror story.

And then you have, I think to me, the biggest bummer is just hearing from Parker Posey that there was a lot of stuff shot with their characters. It just didn't end up in the movie. Can we talk about one moment with Parker Posey that I think is the most, the only instance of women helping women in this film is Renee Zellweger was in this movie.

Yes. What? I didn't catch her. Blinking you miss her. Renee Zellweger was holding up the funnel while Parker Posey chugged. And that is women helping women. And that means this movie is a feminist masterpiece. It is.

Two time Oscar winner humble beginnings. We all have to start somewhere. I guess you could make the argument that Jodie who befriends Sabrina, now does that friendship really have any bearing on the story? Do we see that develop in any meaningful way? Do we really see them talk beyond like the one or two scenes they have together that are pretty quick? No, but she does say like, hey little freshman girl you cute, so you should be hazed. And then also, you're my friend now, so come to the party later. So maybe that's women helping women.

And if so, I mean, going back to your comment, Caitlin, about like this big kind of a history written by the victors kind of vibe is there is this feeling. And again, we weren't there for the seventies. So maybe it was true, but there is this feeling that like, Oh, don't worry. If you're being like, it's almost feel like this kind of gaslighting of like, if a boy is mean to you, that means he likes you. That's how the bullies are treated in this movie. They're like, the bullies, it's not treated like, I think most bully characters are now,

which is that they are fundamentally insecure and might have other stuff going on in their life that causes them to lash out at other kids like this. They're just like, they probably like you. They just have to do this. It's their job. The city pays them to hit you with a paddle. And that again reminds me more of fraternities than any high school bully.

Yeah. I feel like high school bullying to me was a psychological game. It was like, you know, dumping a kid's books as they were walking down the hall sort of thing. But to that point, Jamie, there are a couple scenes where the older boys are talking to Mitch and giving advice on, oh, here's how to handle women. And of course, it's the worst advice you've ever heard because it's things like, oh, you want her? Well, you got to play it cool, and you can't let her know that you like her because if she knows she'll dump you, which is, you know, basically telling a young teen to be

really aloof and dismissive about girls feelings. And then later, when he has started to hang out with Julie, Mitch has the older boys are like, oh, you're gonna have sex with her tonight in a way that is very like them encouraging Mitch to be predatory and be like, if you want it, take it. It's yours, you deserve it. Oh, you're like, it's just horrifying. Does the movie pass the Bechtel test?

I think technically it does, which is kind of hilarious. Really? Let me double check because this we always forget to check this because ultimately it's not what the shows if it's deceptive. I do believe that there's a few sort of passes, but none. It's tricky to like identify what a meaningful conversation in this movie means. I don't know if it passes our version of the Bechtel test where it has to be a meaningful exchange. Right. Yeah. Okay. Oh, this is fun on Bechtel test.com

scholarly journal frequent resource for this show. There is hot debate. The page says it technically passes, but Caroline disagrees with this rating. I is hot debate. The page says it technically passes, but Caroline disagrees with this rating. I'm with Caroline. I think that certainly even if there's like little two line exchanges that pass, spiritually it doesn't. No. There's no like relationship between women in this movie that is meaningful, I would say. And there are relationships between men, including very toxic relationships, including pretty positively framed relationships between bullies and their victims as meaningful, young.

I'm not saying that this movie does a lot for men. It also doesn't do anything for men. But yeah, with relationships between not men, name a dynamic that sticks with you. There just isn't one. So spiritually, I say no pass. Agree. And that brings us to our nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. And based on everything we've talked about regarding the way the movie treats women in that it's not interested in them at all, the way women and girls are talked about by the characters, they're, you know, mostly men characters in a horribly dehumanizing and objectifying manner, the utter disinterest in the one character

of color, all of that. Honestly, I have to give this zero nipples. I don't think it deserves any more than that. The end. Nicole Sarris I kind of want to give it maybe a half nipple. Because there are little things that I felt promised in certain scenes and performances. Sure. But the half nipple goes more to the actors who created those moments versus the script or the direction. The Parker Posey of it all, for example. I'm going to give half a nipple

because Parker Posey put her whole ass into that parking lot scene. She is amazing. One of the other movies that I saw for the first time recently that I really want to cover is Party Girl. Oh, the best. Because luckily, shortly after this, Parker Posey was allowed to fully Parker Posey and was like in the indie darling of the century, but yeah, I think like for moments like that I really thought that like Sabrina's performance was very like sweet and understated and then she became an anti-war activist hard to Hard to I'm giving it a half nipple and I'm just giving it to the girls

I'm just giving it to the girls. All those bitches and sluts. All those bitches and sluts can have a little slice of my half nipple. Maris, how about you? Yeah, I'm going to go one nipple. Partly because I don't want to betray Child Me, who saw this and really enjoyed it. Fair. child me who saw this and really enjoyed it. Fair. But also, yeah, I think it all goes back to Renee Zellweger helping Parker Posey funnel.

There's a little something there. Feminist moment. Yeah. The intersectional part of it. No, not at all. Abysmal. No, there's no intersection. There's just section. There's just section there.

Yeah. Yeah. And barely even any of that. So one nipple? Yes. Nice. Well, Maris, thank you so much for joining us in this discussion. This was so fun.

Tell us where people can follow you on social media, where people can buy your book, etc. My book is available wherever books are sold. And you can find me at MarisKreisman.com. That's where you can sign up for my newsletter called The Maris Review. And I'm also on Blue Sky at Maris. And yeah, please buy my book. Yay. Please do. Please. It's amazing. Great. Well, I think we've thoroughly eviscerated this movie. So why don't we get into a

beat up old car and go buy Aerosmith tickets? All right, all right. All right. Bye. Bye. Alright alright alright. Bye! The Bechtel Cast is a production of iHeart Media, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrasensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechtelcast. What's up guys? Welcome to the Agustapapa podcast, the go-to spot for everything

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