The Bechdel Cast - Death Becomes Her

Episode Date: September 17, 2020

This week, Caitlin and Jamie drink some rejuvenating potion and unlock a Matreon bonus episode on Death Becomes Her!Links for language to use and void surrounding mental illness and disability: https://www.healthpartners.com/blog/mental-illnesses-terms-to-use-terms-to-avoid/ and https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/06/casual-ableist-language/(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project.

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from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, They're just dreams. Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdelcast. My name's Jamie Loftus. My name's Caitlin Durante and this is our podcast about movies.

And an intersectional look at our favorite movies and your favorite movies. Not always our favorite movies. Sometimes movies we hate. Sometimes movies we hate. Other times movies we love to hate. But not this one. Not today's movie. Okay. So members of our Patreon, aka Matreon, will recognize this as a previous Matreon release episode. We are unlocking an episode to get you all hyped up for horror in October this year. So we're unlocking our Death Becomes Her episode.

And one of the reasons we're doing that is because we have been really busting our asses getting the horror movies together for this year. And it's going to be an amazing October. We've got The Descent. We've got Us. We've got A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night. We've got, what's the fourth one? Pan's Labyrinth. Pan's Labyrinth.

Yeah, we have an amazing October lined up for you. Mostly directors we haven't covered before. So look forward to that. And this is just a fun-ass episode. Yes. And one of our shorter ones. We've been releasing like two-hour episodes lately. And this one clocks in pretty short.

Not to give ourselves too much of a pat on the back but um listeners will know we live in southern california and the air is batteries so the fact that we are recording two episodes that have enough you know it's uh it's it's a miracle it's a miracle that we're still producing a podcast in this economy can you imagine oh um yeah so so we are unlocking a matron episode today but as an extra treat for our matrons um who if you're already a member um or if you don't know our matron gives you two bonus episodes a month uh with just caitlin and myself talking about movies on a weird theme that we pick that never makes sense. Weird theme? You mean amazing, incredible, outstanding theme that everybody loves all the time? Right now it's It September, which is female-driven sports movies with it in the title.

That's your name for it. It Tembur. My name for it is Sport Tem timber, which is the same thing. Female driven sports movies with it in the title, but stick it and whip it. But in any case, what we, for five bucks a month,

you can get all of those episodes. There's, I think almost 80, uh, bonus full length bonus episodes in our matriarch at this point. And this is only one, this is one of the first ones we've ever unlocked, but for a bonus

on top of the bonus for our matrons this month we're also going to be unlocking our uh titanic live read that we did to benefit junior high la last month um one of i i think the collabs of the century some of your favorite guests and us reading the entire script from titanic it's it's four hours long so long it's longer than the movie guests like princess weeks who was on the show just last week uh maggie may fish lindsey ellis kenice mobley who's going to be on the show next week there's just so many wonderful guests and more and so we'll be unlocking that for our matrons. And one last plug before we get into the show. Yeah.

We had so much fun doing a live read with everybody. And I think it was over 300 listeners that were with us that night. Yeah, lots. Watching and interacting with us live. We're going to be doing it again next Friday, September 25th for the movie, wait for it, Twilight. We're doing a live reading of Twilight. I like to call it a live reading slash roasting. A live blood sucking. To celebrate Robert Pattinson's recovery from covid19 we're reading twilight um no but we we

are uh we are going to be reading it um tickets will be live today or tomorrow so keep your eye on our social media for that there's going to be a donation based way to do it because we are benefiting a local candidate that we are really excited about in our area named Fatima Iqbal Zubair. She is running for state representative against an incumbent cop. And she's amazing. And we love her so much. So we'll be listing information on how to get access to that broadcast, which will be on the 25th on our social media. Basically, you'll donate to Fatima, send us the receipt, we'll get you the link.

It's easy. Woohoo! And, you know, we're going to be, I'm going to be Edward, Caitlin's going to be Bella. It is what it is. I can't believe it. I'm going to buy a wig, I think.

And our guests are going to be Anna Hosnier, Shereen Lanayunas, Karama Dankwa, and a future guest on the show jess merwin so it is going to be simply a time i'm so excited we will be posting about it incessantly but we wanted to let you know about it now so uh yeah keep your eye out for that indeed and then one last thing about this episode in particular since we we recorded it, we released it about a year ago, if I'm not mistaken. I believe it was for last October. Last Halloween, yeah.

Yes. So you might have noticed in recent months, we're on an ongoing pursuit, an effort to eliminate any language from our vocabulary that is ableist and disparaging of mental illness. And this is, we're talking like pretty common stuff that is still very widely used. Expressions like, and I'm going to say them to let you know maybe what you should also try to eliminate from your vocabulary. So things like, that's crazy, or that was insane, or even like, that's so dumb. Things like that. Yeah, the phrase stupid as well. There's so many common phrases that are rooted in just bigoted statements against those experiencing mental illness.

And those with disabilities. Yeah, we've kind of been on an ongoing education process for ourselves as well. Clearly, this is stuff we've learned and begun implementing into our lives in the last year. So we we're also going to include a link in our description where you can learn more about that and more about the origin of these common phrases that are actively harmful. Yes. That said, we wanted to acknowledge that because there are a few uses of language like this in the episode because it was prior to us being aware of this. So just a heads up for that.

Indeed. And with that, I guess let's get into Death Becomes Her. Yeah. The best body horror movie of all time yeah let's drink our potions that will make us live forever but also crumble and turn did you know women's bodies are terrifying that's what i learned from this movie we talk about it in the episode but we but uh if this is your first episode of the Bechdel cast welcome we look at movies that have had an impact on the world using an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion but Caitlin I don't remember what the

Bechdel test is could you remind me you say You say that as a joke, but I honestly, in the past like couple weeks especially, I'm real, like my memory doesn't work anymore. I couldn't, I can't remember the names. It's because there's batteries in the air. We're breathing battery acid. Like it's horrible. I don't, like I could, I'm off topic already, but like I, and this maybe passes the Bechdel test, but I was like trying to think of my standup jokes recently. And I'm like, I can't remember any of my standup jokes. I can't remember the names of

places I used to go. Like I, yeah, it, it, yeah, I was remembering. I was like, oh yeah. Ideally best case scenario, we will have to remember our jokes at some point. Terrifying. No, yeah. I have also been truly, I mean, especially like extra shout out and love to all of our listeners on the American West Coast because it's tough right now. And if you're able to do mutual aid throughout this, please do. But we're just, it's really the worst of times uh i can't remember i can't i was like i um you want a fun little anecdote before we tell them what the bechdel test is

if you're squeamish maybe fast forward 15 seconds i was walking to 7-eleven yesterday bravely went outside and uh got so uh nauseated by the air that i threw up in my little mask, had to turn around. Oh, no. I'm so sorry. I've been having a nonstop headache for probably the past like six days now. Yeah. It's really awful. It's bad. So what is the bacterial test? And I think all of that puking in your mask passes the Bechdel test. Oh, fully passed the Bechdel test.

So that's another example of it. It is, you know, not, it's a flawed metric. But yes, that whole conversation, I believe, passed the Bechdel test because the Bechdel test is a media metric originally developed and created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test. And it requires that, for our purposes, we have made some adjustments to the test, also people of any marginalized gender must have names must speak to each other about something other than a cis man so that is the test my brain is damn test it's complicated so we use that to inspire the premise of the show yeah and then we dive into a much deeper conversation about representation and intersectionality and inclusivity and uh you

know goldie hawn and meryl streep at different at different times so um yes we're we're excited to share this episode we hope you enjoy it a reminder, if you enjoy these episodes with just me and Caitlin, it's a little looser. We're goofing around. Or if you're just running out of episodes of the Bechdel cast on our main feed, head over to the Matreon. Five bucks a month. Two bonus episodes. And as of today, you can watch the Titanic stream as well. So enjoy the rest of the episode.

Enjoy. The Bechdel cast. You can watch the Titanic stream as well. So enjoy the rest of the episode. Enjoy. Jamie, what's your history with the film? Hadn't seen it. What about you? I had only seen it for the first time about a year ago. Okay. It was not at all on my radar until we started the podcast and started getting requests for it. Yeah. the podcast and started getting requests for it yeah i was like i i and i intentionally did not

do a ton of research going into the viewing experience which i'm glad because it is such a wild ride what a wild ride indeed but yeah i saw i watched it about a year ago and then we just re-watched it together and now we're ready to talk about it i I'm excited. There's a lot going on here. Some of it I love. Some of it, you know, we just have to. That's why we have the podcast. And it's a beloved movie. It's got a cult following.

What a roller coaster of a film it is. So the story, if I may. Please do. Thank you so much. We meet Madeline Ashton meryl street welcome we've taken a hard left take a hard left to meryl street one of our weaker persistent jokes i disagree okay you know what you're right you're right you're right. You're right. You're right. When you're right, you're right. She is an actor, a musical theater performer. But people don't like her anymore because they think she is old and has lost her touch. But there is one person who does still love her. And that is Ernest Menville, Bruce Willis' character.

Bruce Willis. A great Bruce Willis role. The role of a lifetime, I would say. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He is a cosmetic surgeon and the fiance of Helen Sharp, which is Goldie Hawn, who is a frenemy of Madeline's. She's a writer. She's a writer, which Madeline really undermines. She's like, are you still doing that writing thing right which is you know personally triggering sure sure and then helen's all like oh my god ernest you don't

like madeline do you and he's like no i have no interest in her whatsoever cut smash cut to getting married i'm getting married this is the campiest movie with a 55 million dollar budget that's ever been filmed it's maybe well okay i would welcome contenders and consume them happily sure this is a very expensive camp movie right then we cut to seven years later and helen has gained weight and she is now a crazy cat lady she's a classic trope oh yeah we'll talk about you know you hate it she is evicted from her apartment she's institutionalized and she's completely obsessed with madeline ashton's demise right and then she and then we flash forward seven years again right and madeline and ernest's marriage is not healthy he's an alcoholic he is no longer a plastic surgeon at least like not for living people right he instead now makes corpses look presentable for their funerals yay then madeline receives an invitation

from helen for helen's book party and madeline wants to look her best for the event so she goes in for a treatment to get rejuvenated and a guy there tells madeline about lisa von rumen aka isabella she can help but he is weird so madeline ignores him right then she goes to helen's event and surprise goldie hawn has taken off the fat suit and she is a successful writer and madeline is not handling this well so she decides to go to lisa von rumen's place castle and she sells madeline a potion that will reverse the aging process you love it and it works and her body tightens up and her face looks younger in some of the most i mean there's so much i think spectacular body horror in this movie and uh this is just the beginning oh yes yes Meanwhile, Helen has gone to Ernest to seduce him and sabotage his relationship with Madeline.

And she proposes a plan where they drug and kill Madeline, but make it look like an accident. Yeah. And Madeline returns home and she and Ernest get into an argument and then he pushes her down the stairs and breaks her neck. I truly, I found, and I, you know, I need to watch this movie more. to an argument and then he pushes her down the stairs and breaks her neck i truly i found and i and you know i need to watch this movie more but i found the moment where meryl streep is rocking back and forth defying gravity on the stairs and we're like is she gonna fall or not to be the most profound moment of the movie because i think this movie basically boils down to women versus the forces of gravity over time because it is it's a movie about aging right and i'm like was i because this

is like a pretty solid creative team i'm like i wonder if someone was thinking that because it is just like women versus gravity is a big central force in it. That's my little thought. What a brilliant thought, Jamie. Thank you so much. I did my best on that one. Anyway, so yeah, they've gotten into an argument. They're screaming at each other.

They're calling each other nasty names. He is strangling her. And then he pushes her down the stairs and she breaks her neck. And then Ernest calls Helen freaking out and they're trying to figure out what to do. And as they're talking through it, Madeline gets up off the floor. Because she's taken this potion, she didn't die, even though her head is on backwards now. Right, which is not easy to look at. The whatever effects they did to accomplish that particular image is troubling and scary and weird. We're being so we're being weirdly like diplomatic about it.

We're like, it is not easy to view with your eyeballs it just isn't i mean they did the best with what they could in 90 what year was it 2 92 oh see i think it looks like a little too close to real they this won an academy award for visual effects did it really it is the only thing it was nominated for and it won and it won wow i know which is really just a testament to 1992 and uh you know that that means not recent sure i mean zemeckis is a visual effects king i'll say it i've seen back to the future i can't believe she said it i can't believe she finally said it i mean he's no james cameron but who is going on with us today i don't know i missed the matreon it's well it's been a really long time since we recorded a matreon episode i know it's been really long since we haven't had a referee in the room being like, wrap it up,

idiots. It's good. It feels good. So Madeline turns her head back around. And then yes, she's like, Ernest, I need to see a doctor. So he takes her to the ER. But she doesn't have a heartbeat. And it turns out she is legally dead. But she's still awake and moving around. And she seems alive because of this potion. Right. But Ernest, being the doctor science man that he is, thinks that this is a cosmic sign that they should be together after all. Which is confusing. You know, no, I mean, he's he's an interesting I'm like, I'm not quite sure what the comment on masculinity is there. But but it's something. true tbd and he takes her home and tries to fix up her broken body but helen comes

back over and madeline overhears her talking to earnest about their plan to kill her so madeline takes a rifle and shoots hel with it. Yikes. But surprise, Helen has also taken Liesel von Ruhmann's potion. So she doesn't die, even though she has a huge gaping hole in her midsection. Right. And then she and Madeline start physically fighting each other. They're hitting each other with shovels, but then they realize there's no point in that because neither of them can be injured or die and then they get to a point where they both admit their wrongdoings and apologize for hurting each other in the past yay yay uh and then they make earnest

fix them up but he's like i'll do it but then i'm gonna leave forever after that and you'll never see me again right but then they worry they're like shit like we're gonna need touch-ups like what if it rains and he's not gonna live forever and we need him around so they decide to take him to liesl's and make him drink the potion too right there's a lot of intermittent violence in this that we'll have to backtrack to right and they know he won't go willingly so they first try to drug him that doesn't work and then they knock him out and take him to weasel's castle right she almost succeeds in convincing earnest to drink the potion but at the last minute he's like wait a minute i don't want to live forever

that sounds awful and then he gets away right he's not wrong and then madeline and helen spot him and chase after him through this like ball that lisa was throwing all of her clients of whom include elvis marilyn monroe and andy warhol haha funny so he's trying to escape via the roof earnest is and he slips and falls and he's dangling there and he's about to fall to his death and madeline and helen are like oh man you got to take the potion because then if you fall you won't die but he refuses and then he falls but he lands in a swimming pool so he lives and then he finally gets away and madeline and helen are like well i guess we'll just have to take care of each other and paint each other's asses i kind of like that so did i i know i'm just like man that is kind of

like you know for some of us being toxic it's nice to be toxic and also not alone. That's true. They just are doomed to an eternity of toxic friendship together. And then we cut to 37 years later, which let me do the math here because the movie starts when it's 1978. And then seven years pass and then seven more years pass and then 37 years pass putting us at 2029 oh wow 10 years from now now so bruce willis has 10 years left to live is let's be very careful but it has been said it wasn't not said diplomatic wow yeah that's my official statement okay so it's 37 years later uh madeline and helen are at ernest's funeral but they're

chipping they're melting they're falling apart yeah and then they fall down some stairs and break into bits but they're still alive and helen's like do you remember where you parked the car and then that's the end of the movie and that's the whole thing yep you know i like the movie it's very fun it's so campy it. Have fun with it. It's wild. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered.

There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeartTrue Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President

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and used to make fake versions of prescription pills. You can't see it, taste it, or smell it. Suppliers mix fentanyl into their products because it's potent and cheap, and the dealer might not even know. Keep yourself and others safe by knowing the real deal on fentanyl. Get the facts. Go to realdealonfentanyl.com. This message is brought to you by the ad council so let's dive in yeah well the first thing for me is that this movie yes it seems like it is like trying to be commentary on how society doesn't value older women i totally agree society doesn't tends not to find older women to be attractive but i think it does not really go far enough because then the movie focuses on uh these two women who

hate each other and then they do end up finding a common ground but really only because they have no other choice this to me it does feel like kind of like, I swear to you, we just happen to have covered a lot of movies that kind of fall into this category recently, but like a very earnest attempt to make a comment on something that the writers are not necessarily qualified to make the comment on. So this movie is, spoiler alert, as with most movies, written by multiple men. Yes directed by and directed by mr zemecki himself um yeah i mean this movie was written by david

cope um who also was at least a co-writer on jurassic park carlita's way mission impossible snake eyes don't know what that is he's written a lot of damn movies that's what i'm saying yep as well as martin donovan who is also a uh famous screenwriter so it does seem like and based on the production history that we'll get into in jamie's context this was a genuine attempt to make comment on women's aging by people who, you know, couldn't really fully understand it themselves. And so I feel like, well, I don't feel like, you know what? Make a declarative statement for once in your life, Jamie. I know, based on watching the movie, that even though I think that the criticism of, you know, how there a huge stigma against uh women's aging is made in the movie the movie is also very much not above reducing uh an aging woman's body to a cheap joke

or a woman's body in general because there's a lot of issues with fat shaming in this and there's like so it is like a weird back and forth and it is extremely campy, but that doesn't excuse it from anything of making like pretty solid foundational points about like society. We live in a society, Caitlin, right? What? women to the point of feeling like they have to go to, let's say, extreme measures to preserve their youth in order to function in society as they would like to. I feel like that foundational point is made. Right. But the way that they choose to make it is kind of all over the place. And then the way they treat those two women after they have made this choice yeah does not bode well because basically what happens is that after they've both taken the potion to not only reverse the aging

process but prevent them from ever dying doom right doom them to this weird morbid eternity of just falling apart and well they end up becomes extreme but like i feel like they're punished by wanting the well not like okay so foundationally we can't really put and much blame on meryl Streep's or Goldie Hawn's character for wanting to maintain their youth just based on especially the early 90s culture that they're in for the majority of the movie. Sure. Right. But the movie does punish them by condemning them to an eternity of body horror. And then also turning those characters not really into villains but the way they start behaving as soon as they've both died i kind of love how i mean i like i do it's like very funny and yeah like part of what i like about the movie but also like if we really sit

down and look at it and think about it we And we, I think, are meant to like. It's very much. We'll see. Okay. We're working this out in real time. Okay. This is the matron. But I do feel like.

And we almost talked. We talked about this while we were watching the movie. That I am all for seeing a toxic relationship between two women. I love it. I've taken part in them myself. Like but but like truly like where we start and even though I feel like it starts from a too heightened place, but where we start where you know, one woman is jealous of another woman, which I feel like even we in the past have sometimes been like, oh, that's so tropey which it can be but i also think that there

is certain stories where that works because that trope doesn't come from nowhere it comes from i feel and like i have felt in certain situations myself that you know there is an increased capacity for professional especially where this seems to sort of start and then it gets personal but like a jealousy between women because there's this perception and often a reality that there's only space for so many women in a place right so i think that it is a topic worth exploring but these writers are just not they didn't equipped to do it no and they and i think it's so abruptly is like oh we don't really know how to explore this in an interesting or like a nuanced way at all so let's just make it about boys which is what it becomes about and then it

goes full trope territory of like don't steal my boyfriend so it kind of sucks because i think that you know the dynamics of a female friendship especially a long-standing one like this and the power dynamics that exist inside of it is really interesting and it's been done in really clever and cool ways and just this this is a more kind of reductive version of it although i mean hopefully it at the time helped pave the way to more nuanced looks and stuff like that but it does i mean it gets pretty reductive of like she stole my boyfriend right very quickly because it takes the movie a really long time for the audience to understand why they don't like each other because we eventually understand that they are childhood friends or maybe like they were friends as teenagers or something like that.

It's still pretty vague. Yeah. And it takes a very long time for them to even talk about it. But then finally, there is a reason that gets established to explain why they are frenemies or at least why Helen hates Madeline. And it's because Madeline kept stealing Helen's boyfriends and I guess she was doing that to get back at Helen for calling her cheap which I don't know if that means we also don't really know what the context of that is where it's yeah you're set up with a very vague my immediate read but it's so vague that i feel

like you can just project whatever you want onto it was that like helen's character was from like a family that didn't approve of meryl's appearance or maybe it was her socioeconomic background it wasn't clear the word cheap is loaded. Right, exactly. So it's like, is it a classist thing? Is like, is she calling her trash? Or is it like, is she calling her like, oh, you're a cheap, like, hustly kind of thing? Which is in the, yeah, it's in the lyrics at the beginning too.

What was it? I wrote it down. It was like, shameless, husty, diva princess, lewd and lusty you're like beautiful jamie thank you so much right so it's not even totally clear what she meant but then madeline retaliates by stealing many of helen's boyfriends it's all pretty reductive stuff but but i am it takes an hour and a half for this conversation to take place but and but at least the reasons are given but again they are like you said they they're still very like tropey and like women be cat fighty and that's the reason why these women are cat fighting yeah i don't think that there's like had had the writers you

know talked to women about their friendships or or reasons, you know, like, I don't know. I mean, I think you could talk to even a handful of women and be like, oh, you know, what was a friendship that of yours with another woman that fell apart? And what were the reasons? reason other than like boys and mommy and daddy because um you know female friendships be complicated as fuck right and then shortly after we are we understand the reasons why they have had such a tense relationship and friendship throughout their lives then they both admit their wrongdoings and apologize to each other love it but it's at that point when they start to like you know be on each other's sides and decide to like kind of be allies again that's when the movie turns them into these like and again the performances are very fun this is still very fun to watch but it's like

they become like these like kind of scary obsessed it becomes a cartoon i mean i feel like it like enters like once they die it says i mean yeah it enters roger rabbit territory basically of like the cartoonishness of how the characters like look and behave and it is fun to watch and that's the thing that like bugs me is movie viewers are smarter than people give them credit for like your average movie thank you so much is you're talking about me specifically right you're a subs member i i'm talking to all the stubsbs members out there. MC Stubbs, baby. Sponsor us. Hello.

But like, you know, like people aren't going into Death Becomes Her looking for an example of how to live their life. Right, right, right, right. You know, so all you need in order to justify the cartoony violence, which I appreciate that it's cartoony and it's a very different movie if you're like I'm gonna kill you really slow instead of literally I'm gonna blow up your torso the injuries are very cartoony the comical

cutting away to Meryl Streep falling down the stairs for 45 minutes before she hits the bottom of the staircase like it's clearly done with comedic intent and all you need to justify all that cartoony violence is a solid reason for these two characters to hate each other other than a vague scene thrown in three quarters of the way through the movie that doesn't even really answer any questions

and it makes it clear i'm like i wouldn't even be surprised if like that scene was added in later because it seems like the movie does all it's looking to do to justify two women disliking each other in the first scene by saying like she steals my boyfriends and and we see you know it's it's implied that having a boyfriend quote-unquote stolen which also removes all of the accountability from the boyfriend right that is like grounds for helen's life completely falling apart she stops taking care of herself and oh yeah she you know reaches what is kind of implied to be this catatonic state of living over the loss of a boyfriend which she

says explicitly in dialogue she blames a thousand percent on meryl streep and not at all on bruce willis who is just too much of a sweetie earnest boo to to know what he's doing which is like you know very eye right and then this movie also subscribes heavily to the idea that fat equals pathetic that single woman equals pathetic and that also i mean oh and woman who loves cats pathetic absolutely and how dare um how dare how dare the movie say that but um there yeah i mean the the way that i mean the the fat shaming elements in this movie are extremely strong constantly making fat shaming comments about helen right and it's i mean the beginning of the movie is the worst of of it where you you know you we find out that bruce willis has married meryl streep goldie Hawn is very upset by it. And then we cut to seven years later to an

exploitative up close ass shot. And then it's revealed that Goldie Hawn's character has gained weight. And it's implied that yeah, like gaining weight means you have lost control of your life. Like it's just used as this shorthand that is like, first of all bad writing oh yeah and second of all it just you know holds up not even a little and and the fat suit it's just all bad right and then also because she's institutionalized in like a psychiatric hospital that's also well the way that mental the way that mental illness yeah that like i mean mercifully at least those scenes are pretty quick i also think that they could have just flashed forward 14 years like that midway because everything that happens at the seven year point is pretty offensive and also not super necessary to the story like we

could flash forward 14 years and just be like she's still mad right you don't need to do the whole scene where it's fat shamey and just like bad on every level and then you cut to the institution which at least they don't do that horrible thing that movies do where they name a mental illness and explicitly stigmatize it but the implication is you know women be crazy and being jealous of another woman is a mental illness right and then the i think unnamed mental health professional at the which is one of the only people of color in the entire movie i don't know that we i don't i didn't hear her name i mean maybe she's credited with one but yeah i don't think we definitely don't hear it but even she's on screen for no more than a minute and fat james goldie hawn in that scene and is like you've been here six months and you haven't lost a pound

i'm like that's not why people are institutionalized so that's just a cruel thing to say so that whole first flash forward i I say, get rid of it. Get rid of it. We don't need it. And then when they flash forward again, 14 years, Meryl Streep, and this is,wn seriously and will only consider talking to her when she finds out that she has lost weight and is back to Goldie Hawn right and before that it's like she and Bruce Willis are kind of like gearing up to tease her from afar and not talk to her but then when it's revealed that in another tasteless reveal that, you know, it's Goldie Hawn and she's, you know, the Western beauty standards Goldie Hawn and not the offensive fat suit Goldie Hawn.

Then all of a sudden Meryl Streep is willing to engage and the jealousy is back. And it's just like just just coming out. Right. Don't we don't need it. Don't need it. Yeah, absolutely. just cut it out right don't we don't need it uh-huh we don't need it yeah absolutely and then then they're like rivalry is ignited again and then we still don't know why really don't really know why we only know that um centric that madeline tends to steal helen's boyfriends away from her

but we don't know why we don't know what anyone's motivation is right and then things eventually turn around where they do become friends again which is because they both died and they they've both now that they've both been responsible for the other's death they kind of they're like oh this is the vague reason we were mad to begin with sorry for not mentioning that earlier and we're even and that yeah we've we right and we found common ground in both dying and being so obsessed with maintaining our youthful looks that we need to keep this guy around to fix us whenever we need it but then like i say they they become villains because one they're so obsessed with this idea of maintaining that and then they go so far as to try to drug him and then knock him out to like take him against his will to this place and then force him to take this potion because they just like want him there's also like the bizarre because bruce willis i mean the thing is

like i loved this movie but but but we must do our job uh the the bizarro message you get on masculinity and I think sort of like a tropey beta male character with Bruce Willis in this movie is bizarre. like completely frees him of accountability on anything where it's just made to seem like he's this gullible idiot who cannot see through the sexuality of women. Like that is the thing where he, you know, reassures Goldie Hawn and is like, there's no way I'll fall for this. And they almost make it seem like Meryl Streep has this magical power of manipulation that immediately wins him over. Goldie Hawn tells him to his face, I don't blame you for that. It's her. She's evil. She's a woman.

A woman from Newark, which is funny. But but, you know, like no one ever gets upset for him for things. And then he also, in turn, in keeping with that, blames the women in his life for where his life ends up. And it's like, no one forced you to marry Meryl Streep, Bruce Willis. You hate to say it, but like, no one forced you to. And then sort of the same throughout at the end, where it's framed like, you you know these two vindictive women want to keep this poor man

at their mercy for the rest of their eternal lives and they want to torture him into infinity and it's just like it's so over the top and bris willis literally kills meryl streep but he's like she told me to like he's acting like he never has a choice in anything and it's just so like i mean i love i love to watch it but it does it does give you a weird comment on masculinity that like every man that's ever lived is completely has to go with the like wiles of women they don't understand them they can't control it they do they commit murder it's not their fault also there's that scene where goldie hawn dressed as jessica rabbit fully shows up at his house and she's like i used to be so timid and i couldn't

even say the word sex but now now I can say it. Sex. Sex. And he's like, Bonar. It is kind of funny. But like, yeah. Well, my thing with that character, with Ernest, is that I feel that he is written the way a lot of women are written, or should i say underwritten in many movies because he's often hysterical he's screaming he is gullible um in the relationships that he's in with these two women he is has far less kind of power and control than the two women he at least starts out pretty much as like being the supporting character to these women in the story so like but then like by the end he is framed as like being this

hero and they're at his funeral and they're like oh man his life got so awesome when he turned 50 and he's a saint. And he started the Menville Center for the Study of Women because, I guess, feminist icon Ernest Menville. Probably not. I thought that was like kind of a fun, like, I don't know. I was like, well, aging worked out for someone. Well, because that's the thing it's like i maybe it's the movie trying to comment but again i don't think it does it effectively but it's like men are allowed to age gracefully and with dignity and and like look how awesome everyone

thinks he is maybe if you just hung in there ladies and not gotten so upset right but then by contrast we see like the two women they are literally like chipping away falling apart they look grotesque because there's paint running off of their faces right and like the makeup in this so it's like is that commentary but i feel like and we are we're on their side, but I just, it feels like a hollow message that the movie's trying to say. One thing I, well, something I did like is that I feel like, we talked about this when we were watching it too, that Meryl Streep's character in this movie kind of reminds me of Goldie Hawn's character in First Wives Club. Yes. Where these are both characters who are in the entertainment industry meryl streep is some sort of like a star of the stage and screen

right um who is afraid of not being able to work in the way she would like to if she appears older right right um which is similar to goldie hawn in First Wives Club. And I appreciate at very least that I does go out of its way to couch it in like and this is not something that she is completely you know like removed from reality to be worried about because we see that scene where she goes to her young side pieces house oh yes and he is with a younger woman and he rejects her and you know insults her and, you know, insults her and says, you know, go date someone your own age. And that is a breaking point for her. And so I think that it was that was one of, for me, the more genuine moments of like actual commentary on aging of like, yes, it does seem on the surface like Meryl Streep is, you know, she's seen with face masks on all the time. It's made out to be over the top. But then you do get the inverse of it of like she's not doing it for no reason.

She's it. There is like it is her reality. Right. And so I did appreciate that we we at least get to see that so that she isn't made out to be like the crazy lady truck. Yeah, I agree. at least get to see that so that she isn't made out to be like the crazy lady trip yeah i agree that scene where she goes to that guy and he says like find a guy your own age i'm doing you a favor people say we look ridiculous together right which is like the movie attempting i think to comment on like the double standard of society deeming it perfectly acceptable for an older man to be with a younger woman but not acceptable for an older woman to be with a younger woman, but not acceptable for an older woman to be with a younger man.

So the movie does like start to make this commentary. It is like it is. It just doesn't get all the way there. Right. It's almost like, you know, male writers and directors that are trying to put women on, which is great. Use your power responsibly but also talk to them see what they think see if they think you're being stupid uh you know let's just bring ari aster back into the conversation while we're at it i'm just like

yeah we get it like you want to make movies about women uh try to have a conversation with one um yeah there are like those moments where you're like oh this the heart was in the right place but it just rings hollow because there's not really any authenticity in it and that i feel like is like what makes a great campy movie is like reactions and characters that are over the top you understand why they're doing what they're doing and so you can justify almost anything behavior wise of like if i had a better understanding a rooted reason that meryl streep and goldie hahn fucking hate each other then they could hit each other with shovels all day and i wouldn't care because it's like you there there's a grounded reason and you're not just

doing it to do it but you know it just sometimes it feels that way, other times it doesn't. Yeah, I agree. We need to take another quick break, but then we will come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

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And we're back. Can I share my two favorite lines in the movie? Yes. Both said by Bruce Willis because his character just tickles me pink. Hit it, baby. He's like yelling at like a staff member in the hospital after he's taken Madeline to the ER. And he's like, you put her in the morgue. She'll be furious.

And then a little bit later, whenever they're trying to like deal with what they think is Helen's dead body. Bruce Willis says, are you just going to sit there? I'm not going to be your accomplice all by myself, which is comedy at its highest point. It's truly the peak. Oh, so funny. Loved it. Okay. It was fun. I mean, this movie, I think kind of keeping true to its heart in the right place, but a lot of, you know, kind of classically negative stereotypes being given in. I mean, there's a lot of needlessly like overly revealing outfits kind of for no

reason i'm almost willing to justify it within the aesthetic of the movie or if it is a cartoon but there's like that scene where uh meryl streep and goldie hawn are following bruce willis around in like leotards for no reason and you're just like okay this is also one of the um few movies where the two female leads are older than the male uh love interest meryl streep and goldie hawn are both older than bruce willis so how about that that very rarely happens you know it's like leonardo dicaprio will not appear on screen with a woman over the age of 24 so there's you know that i thought that was cool sure oh that was getting into the isabella rossellini right because she she is i mean the the costumes are incredible i mean iconic they are architecture basically it they the the looks her shirt is just several necklaces but it's also you're like i

think that there's flesh colored fabric involved i'm not clear must because we didn't see any nips i don't believe there was architect yeah because it was pg-13 uh so the architect i mean it was wow but but like sure there were shots where you saw her bare ass for no reason was it gratuitous yeah but i also was like i wish i could wear that you know but there i mean and there's did you have i i don't have much to say about lisa's character because she is kind of something that i think is something that we have slowly realized is a bizarre trope that appears again again is she's a plot witch right she is we were compared a lot of plot witches we compared her to uh ursula yeah she is she's literally a

plot she's like i have a deal for you i'm wearing an outfit and you're like all right okay sure yeah i mean then we also i don't know totally how much this is worth mentioning but we as we were watching it we were like she's like appropriating ancient Egyptian culture with like. Sound off in the comments. We truly, I'm just like, I don't know if there's, if what, we don't know. Yeah. There's a lot of, there's a lot of it. We don't know.

We don't know. So, you know, that's something for, for, if, if you have any information on it, we would love to have a more cogent discussion about it. But at this time we simply don't know. True. But yeah, that's Liesl. There's really not. I mean, yeah, there was like some gratuitous nudity.

I mean, almost exclusively gratuitous nudity there. She's a plot witch. But we do have two female protagonists to bounce it off. I mean, like if she was one of the only women that you saw on screen at length, I would be way more bothered. She also has like several male servants who are Fabio's. Fabio's there. One of them is actually Fabio. Their names are Tom, Dick and Harry.

And they are pretty nude. I mean, they're topless. They're wearing pretty revealing clothing. So I thought that was, you know, that's an empowering thing for Isabella. Yeah. It's just house rules. You can't wear a lot of clothes. She's rich.

Also, she's a businesswoman. I think there's a case to be made. She's a woman in STEM. She's making these potions. She's making potions. She's 70-some years old, she said. Which is, I mean, it is another one of those i mean and again this movie is not thinking too hard about it i'm certain but you know like a female scientist can only be a

witch right kind of thing but also she has at least some business life outside of it i don't have that much to say about this character and then there's also the thing of like it's a movie about women aging and like not being allowed to age gracefully and society not allowing that but then it's also casting three women who are very attractive by western beauty standards and like great right great for you yeah i don't know i mean it is an interesting again it's just like so much of this movie would pull together more for me if we had a more grounded story and why they dislike each other because as it stands it just makes some really cool interesting scenes and choices kind of feel less impactful and cool but and ultimately it is the women who suffer for what is presented at

the beginning as a societal ill and yet it is still these two women who have to suffer the eternal consequences of it yeah and are punished for it which is a weird message to leave it off right um i wanted to do a quick little context moment for this movie's... Sorry, I was just so thrown off by you calling it a context moment. I'm not a context corner. It's Jamie's context corner. So this movie has a massive queer following. I wasn't aware of the extent of the queer legacy of this movie,

but there was a terrific piece that came out in vanity fair on this exact topic with extensive reporting wow that came out two years ago uh it was written by christy puchko so thank you for doing all this um it gives a little bit of background on the production of the movie as well as how it is gained a queer following over time because this movie wasn't super successful when it came out and it also was not well reviewed right um it just broke its budget domestically and then ended up making some money internationally but it definitely wasn't considered anyone's best it wasn't nominated for anything except visual effects a lot of the interviews are or a lot of the pull quotes are from david kpp. It's K-O-E-P-P.

Is it Koepp? Koepp. Let's say David Koepp. He gave some insight into what they were going for. He says, quote, it was meant to be Night of the Living Dead if George Cukor had directed it, which I think is kind of a fun reference. It felt like no risk whatsoever because we both had nothing but credit card debt to our names. There was nowhere to go but up so this was this was basically written to be and the original casting choices kind of reveal that it was written to be a b movie and then because robert zemeckis

had a lot of clout and wanted to direct the movie all of a sudden it was elevated to a big budget level so there which i feel like you can kind of in a good way, feel that dissonance of like, why is Bruce Willis in this movie? Why would like the, this movie could have been made for a lot less money, but I'm kind of glad it wasn't, you know,

like they, it looks like it costs $55 million. But what this has inspired a lot of, in addition to the movie being screened at Pride events quite a bit, is there have been a lot of iconic drag performances inspired by Death Becomes Her to the point where it was a specific runway challenge on RuPaul's Drag Race at some point, where Violet Chachki won for the most intensely cinched waste i've ever seen in my entire life you can look it up it was so good later uh in the article david kepp is asked why

he i think this is a very fun question to ask him because old men are so doofy sometimes uh they ask him why do you think this movie has amassed such a big queer following and he has this to say quote you really can't underestimate the entertainment value of two women swinging shovels at each other uh and and then the other the other all he said yes and then his coat and then his co-writer says quote i could invent some excuse but deep down in my heart i do not know so i mean it's like they're i mean they're just like kind of like great we've never talked to a gay person so right so they're like i guess it worked out for us um the winner of drag race season five jerek hoffer had that's Jinx Monsoon. Yes.

Yeah. One under Jinx Monsoon, but interviewed, did this interview under Jarek Hoffer. It took on like the, uh, death becomes her themed photo shoot, like has a history of doing it.

Uh, here's what Jarek has to say. Quote, I think this is a trait that runs throughout the queer community. The obsession with the hyper feminine female villains. And we see it in Disney movies and in movies like Death Becomes Her and in characters like Poison Ivy and Catwoman.

Almost all the Disney villain witches are gay icons, which is, and we've discussed at length here. And they continue, quote, I think it's a combination of it being a strong female character who you love how evil she is, you know? I don't know why that is a trait that appears to queer people so much but it's pretty consistent amongst the queer community i think it has something to do with feeling like outcasts and imagining yourself in this position of power where

even though you're the outcast you still have some kind of power and strength within you so yeah and then finally quote i think it's really feminist that they're willing to take their lives into their own hands and do whatever it takes be willing to spray paint themselves and fill themselves with cement or whatever to just uphold themselves and try to stay in command so there you go that is in brief the uh history of death becomes her as a an iconic queer movie as well yeah beautiful thanks for the context corner you're welcome yeah i'm glad i mean we talk about this a fair amount too where certain movies have become like queer icon texts not because there are any queer characters in them because they are often not in most mainstream movies yeah yeah even in like

it's it's just it's it's cool to understand the history of how movies become iconic in any community like it is it's cool and i i knew so little about this movie to begin with that like having context for that drag race competition was great for me yeah it was great because i had watched it before and been like, what is that? I don't know. And now I know I understand. Now you know. I'm learning.

Do you have anything else you want to hit on? Just that Helen Sharp first has a cat and then has many cats. And cats have eight nipples. That's Cat Facts with Caitlin. It's true. I think that's about it though yeah i enjoyed this movie quite a bit i i'm happy it will be continued to watch for years to come i think it is the kind of movie that even though its flaws i think are pretty glaring i find them

so glaring that it is almost like people can continue to watch it does that make sense yeah i see where it's not like a subtle poison being put into like the veins of a movie where you're like oh no i'm red pilled you know like it is so it is so wildly campy that it's not like very very small doses of arsenic that you take over the course of several months and then die from it it's like yeah the poison apple with like the poison symbol painted onto the apple and you're like oh i know not to really take this seriously this is fun perfect analogy yeah i mean just a movie trying to tackle the subject of like women aging and how society believes that that's not a thing that should be allowed at all. Right.

You know, and approaching that topic. In a very 1992 way. Yes. And that it only tackles it in the context of upper class straight white women. Exactly. women exactly but in terms of the time I mean there's not a lot of movies in 1992 that are trying to address the concept of women aging at all at the horror of women at all women so right and and so I think in that it has a valuable place in history in addition to being a fun watch with some really incredible the performances performances but I love it

it is the the outfits in this movie are really next level let me say my one last piece oh please I think maybe yeah and this doesn't justify this at all but perhaps the reason that we cut to

the seven years later where we see Goldie Hawn like completely in crisis and like mentally crumbling and all of that. Is that that's when she, we don't see her do this, of course, because it has to be a reveal later on. But that's when we understand her to take the potion because she says she takes it October 26th, 1985. That would be seven years after when the movie opens in 1978. But the thing about October 26, 1985, that is the day of the temporal junction point of the space-time continuum, according to Back to the Future, another Robert Zemeckis film. Galaxy Brain. So these actually exist in the same universe.

Galaxy Brain. I love it. It makes me happy. I didn't understand. And, you know, we did cover Back to the Future on the Matreon as well. It did not fare well. But it's still a movie i deeply deeply love so that's my cross to bear yeah fortunately it isn't mine um but i do like a

good billy zane joint which i think is how back to the future is remembered um as one of the best performances um but yeah i mean i yeah this this i i would genuinely like recommend watch this movie with your friends it's a blast i'm sure there's a great drinking game for this movie somewhere oh yeah um but you know that's why we're here to just you know keep you humble let you know hey it's not as good as you think it is but it's still pretty fucking good. That's our job. Does this movie pass the Bechdel test? It does. It does. Between Madeline and Helen, between Madeline and Liesel. There's a few other conversations with very tertiary female characters who don't get named,

that don't pass the Bechdel test. But there are women interacting. And there is a lot of talk about, like, I feel like even slightly edging out the Bruce Willis talk. There is a lot of talk about jealousy and fractures within the friendship. And often men will come up because the conflict between them is underwritten. But you do. I do like that some of the dialogue is like left for us to kind of explore this conflict, although it comes way too late in the movie. But yeah.

So, you know, it does pass. Sure does. Yeah. What would you rate the film? Oh, probably pretty low. I mean, here's OK. I was going to say this earlier. For all of its faults, all of the action in this movie is driven by the female characters.

Absolutely. Bruce Willis, like you were saying, is reduced to no agency, like female characters often are. He becomes kind of this flaccid tool weapon. Screaming, squealing, hysterical. To be used by the two female characters. So in that way, I think it is very unusual and cool women are but then he is given agency at like the climax and it's almost like he wins climax and then he's yeah exactly i have to give it don't like the way this movie ends one and a half one and a

half maybe two i was gonna give it two okay i'll go to nip for each of them this gets a five million on the campometer but that's not what we're here for no uh in terms of maybe we should do that podcast ibk yeah new patreon tier strictly discussing camp the campometer but this is like campometer a plus uh but in terms of how the movie treats its family characters i would say about two because they do lose in the end yeah which doesn't they're punished for you know wanting to and that's the other thing like yes society has these rigid expectations about women and women aging women will also be criticized for trying to like participate in like i'm gonna try to not look like i'm aging so much kind of thing and then women are also punished for that well it's just

like well why can't you just like age naturally and it's like because you fucking won't let me society well the the yeah i feel like the movie like at some points it reaches like oh it looks like it's about to make a really cool point and then it punishes the female character yeah we're making the choice that they've explained and made it clear why they're making that choice and then you're like well whatever fuck her anyways and you're just like that's not fair I my ideal ending for this movie is that once they become friends again they discuss okay this was our conflict we both killed each other we're even then instead of

going after bruce willis they like find a more like a large like societal target and like instead of going after this one person that they've been using as a tool right this whole time go after someone who has actually inflicted harm upon them and go after that like i feel like that's a more logical target especially if you're you get that cool moment of them uniting right it's like why would you go after bruce willis right i do like when they come together and like form this like friendship again but yeah the third act of this movie is a mess they should there should be like maybe like a movie director who's like i'm not gonna cast you anymore ml, because you've gotten too old. Or even just like someone who set up a little bit earlier of someone who has done actual harm or encouraged conflict among them or something like that.

Because going for Bruce Willis, it like doesn't make a ton of sense. And then he ends up winning and you're just like, I don't like that either. Like there is a cooler ending trajectory for this. And they should have won because we're rooting for them we love them they should have had us write the movie really like i know that we barely existed at this time but like they should have let us yeah you were a fetus maybe fetus and i was six years old you're in first grade i think that that's an amazing that's a really cool progressive screenwriting team is and we would have been able to comment on aging women as a fetus and a six-year-old so we were the better

choice than two men isn't that insane someone who hasn't been born is a better choice but it is true in the in this case of yeah it's just it's good intentions but i feel like you know with the benefit of time we now understand that um two men are very rarely going to write a realistic compelling relationship between two women whether it's like gritty realism or camp it just you just you just need someone in the room. So two nippies kicking one to each of them. Same. I'll do the same. Yeah. Now they both got a full set for them.

Congratulations. Isabella, you're out of luck. And folks, that was the Death Becomes Her episode. Thanks for tuning in. And we just wanted to remind you that was an unlocked matreon episode if you want 70 plus more episodes like that they're all over at patreon.com slash the bechdel slash bechdel cast sorry my brain is pudding um patreon.com slash bechtelcast. You will get two extra episodes a month and a Titanic bonus stream for September.

One of many Titanic bonuses on the Matreon because we also have a three hour and 14 minute commentary track in which we watched Titanic and commented on it. We have one where we're drunk on Thanksgiving watching Titanic a couple of years ago. That's a fun one. And then we have another one that i don't remember why we i think that one was just everything we didn't cover in the first one the second that the follow-up episode was pretty comprehensive of like everything we've learned about titanic since our first episode

with a parnalant nantrila which is on this feed it's dense papers could be written please don't write them well here's the thing i want to do another titanic episode obviously because i've completely come around on a bunch of things even since the last time we recorded it hell yeah episode yes okay i'm i'm fully down yeah team fabrizio that's what i'm that's my new stance also this this is our first this is our first time doing titanic since we realized the whole dicaprio fully clothed underwater which really changes your read of the entire movie you we have to look at it from an entirely new lens now cinematic language is so dense uh oh my you can just i mean we'll listen to this episode in the future and be like wow the air quality was just not good uh

we're like no it's the thematic implications of leonardo dicaprio being underwater while he's wearing clothes it means something it means everything we love you thank you for bearing with us also remember to check out our Titanic our Twilight live stream

our Twilight live stream is next Friday team Jacob benefiting Fatima Iqbal Zuffer. She is the best. We'll be posting about it nonstop. We can't wait. And if you want to get merch, that's over at tpublic.com slash the Bechdel cast. Follow us on social media at your leisure at Bechdel cast.

Especially because we're going to be posting all the information about the Twilight live read slash roast on our social media platforms. We're going to be real annoying about it. You're not going to miss it. So we hope to see you at the Twilight hang. And that's the end of the episode, right? I think so. We did it? We did it? We did it?

Question mark. Bye. All right. Bye-bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption

that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you.

Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister, or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm.

Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds

and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday.