The Bechdel Cast - D.E.B.S. with Ellie Brigida and Leigh Holmes Foster

Episode Date: February 14, 2019

Jamie and Caitlin get accepted to D.E.B.S. Academy along with special guests Ellie Brigida and Leigh Holmes Foster of Lez Hang Out Podcast, and the four of them discuss D.E.B.S. while also training to become D.E.B.S.!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @@elliebrigida / @lshfoster / @lezhangoutpod on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hi, welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. And my name's Jamie Loftus.

And what do we do here, Jamie? Sorry to put you on the spot. Oh my god, sorry. No, it's fine. It's a test. Well, this is our podcast about the representation of women in movies using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion. How did I do? That was so wonderful. Thank you so much. the very first time is a media test and actually I wanted to go into a little bit more detail than we normally do because I think this is like the perfect episode and the perfect movie to provide just a little more context and talk a little bit more about the origins of the Bechdel test than

we normally do. You're being a real lead Deb right now i i am the squad leader the squad captain leader we're gonna get into a fight but by the end we will make up and yes our friendship one of us will be in love and the other one will be in charge so you'll be in love and i'll be in charge okay that's because that's how our normal lives are right now okay anyway so allison bechdel queer icon uh she inadvertently created the bechdel test in her book dykes to watch out for published in 1985 um i feel like some people think that she like deliberately set out to create this specific media test but it was more of a comic. It was like a one-off. Yeah, it appeared in the book and then that was later co-opted into the test that we now use and

that is widely used to apply to, you know, media and movies and things like that. Alison Bechdel credits the idea to her friend Liz Wallace and to the writings of Virginia Woolf, specifically Woolf's essay, A Room of One's Own, which is a feminist text. The Bechdel test is sometimes referred to as the Bechdel-Wallace test, which Alison Bechdel is said to prefer, but we are jerks, so we only call it the Bechdel test. I love when friends credit friends. Yeah. It's critical. It's great. And then in the comic, Dex to Watch Out For, it has two lesbian characters,

and the context of their conversation is that there is so little queer women representation in movies that the only way for them to imagine that a female character in a movie might be a lesbian is if she is seen talking to another woman and they are not talking about men. So that is the origin of the Bechdel test. And I just wanted to share that to our listeners. And let's share the original comic on our Twitter as well. I know it's readily available, so we can do that as well.

Indeed. Caitlin's History Corner. Yeah. A new segment on every episode coming out. Please God, no. Shall we introduce our guests? Let's do it. I'm so excited.

We've got two today. A very exciting time. They are the hosts of the Les Hangout podcast. It's Leigh Holmes Foster and Ellie Brigada. Hi. Did I say that right? Brigada. It's Brigida.

Brigida. But I think you should change it to Brigada. Honestly, I love it. Brigada. It sounds a little bit more like the things that I love. Sounds like a beverage or bread. So sorry for fucking up your name, but it's all good they literally messed up my name at my graduation and i waited for them i was like you were gonna get it right so they

said it like seven times and then i finally walked that is an incredible flex yeah so tell us uh lee let's start with you um what is your history, your relationship with the movie? Oh, by the way, today's movie is Debs. Yes. Debs is a cult classic. Yes, technically 2004, but released widely in 2005. Rom-com, technically. Although it feels like a D-com to me in a lot of ways.

It's getting a lot of D-com vibes. Oh, yeah, so many green screens yeah so many green screens and like goofy like boyoing kind of music very decom it's so great what is your experience leigh okay so my experience so I because I'm gonna say yeah I feel like I first saw Debs in college um which would make sense. That was like right after it came out. And I would say my experience with Debs is that for a really, really long time when we would try to talk to like friends or people about like queer movies, we would say for a long time, there's like one, like good queer movie that's like a real movie, which is Imagine Me and You.

And then there's like two amazing like campy movies. And those are Debs and But I'm a Cheerleader. And so for a long time, Debs was like that go to of like, it's so terrible and amazing, just all at the same time. And there just wasn't a lot else out there. So you'd kind of just watch those. We talked about this on our But I'm a Cheerleader episode where our guest was like, there are only two fun lesbian movies. And one of them is But I'm a Cheerleader.

And the other one is Debs. This has been like a request for a long time. Yes. It's such a classic. It's such, yeah, it's such a horribly amazing movie the first time that I ever saw it actually was when I watched it with Lee we do a segment on our podcast yeah called Les Central's you've never seen it I had never seen it yeah it was the first time that I had seen it and I don't know why I hadn't seen it before but I'm also a bit younger than Lee

so I was I was definitely not a lesbian or I was a lesbian but I wasn't out when Debs came out um so I saw it for the first time then and have since watched it probably five or six times yeah yeah because everything else is so depressing like if you want to watch something upbeat and lesbian like that's it yeah uh jamie what's your relationship history like most movies i'd never seen it before uh until today and i watched and i watched it twice in a row and it's like it's so up my alley in so many ways but it's just like the low budge vibes you get from it. The multitude of like the character actors are out in this movie. Some wild character actor choices.

The outfits are weird. I just it's it's everything. It looks like it costs seven dollars to make. And I love I love Jordana Brewster. And it was just she's great in this. She's so good. And it's weird because I don't, I haven't seen, I mean, I guess I'm mostly judging her catalog from seeing her on my mom's soaps when I was really young. Because she started as a soap star and seeing her in the Fast and the Furious movies.

But this is the most personality I've seen her ever display ever. It was just like, oh oh I really like this movie yeah what about you Caitlin um I had not seen it either um I knew of it just because it had been request it's a common request yeah uh for us to do on the podcast and that was the first time I learned about it I think it's just yeah I remember someone in like a college film class I took presented on it and being like college myself I'm like oh yeah I'll watch that and then I was like no I'm not gonna watch a movie it's homework it somehow flew under my radar which is unfortunate that this like fun queer movie was not even in my like wheelhouse or I just I wasn't aware of it because I feel like I

have a pretty good handle on most movies even if I haven't seen them I've heard of them or I know about them. I've been to film school twice for crying out loud. Thank you so much for bringing it up because you know I don't like to mention that I do have a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University but yeah it just. When did you go to BU I went there between 2012 and 2014 oh we were probably there at the same time yeah that's cool Boston yeah that's where I did my PhD so oh okay trying to I'm sorry um are you down Durante are you trying to upstage me on my own podcast? Oh, I'm sorry. I just got my much more impressive degree there at the same time, though.

My blood pressure just spiked. Not even at all. This is very stressful. Wait, what did you study? Chemistry. Oh. A woman in STEM. That's why it's not impressive at all, and no one ever wants to hear about it.

You know, I'm not impressed by your PhD in chemistry at all. You shouldn't be. I think we also overlapped with Ocasio-Cortez, though, didn't we? Oh, I think she graduated in 2011, I think. Something like that. That sounds right. Yeah, so I missed her. So she and I overlapped, so once again.

Oh, okay. This is a spicy cast. I'm so sorry. I'm never getting invited back to anything ever. No, you have a PhD in chemistry. You can do whatever the fuck you want. Yeah. And I didn't mean for my reaction to be like, oh.

It was more like, oh, I wasn't expecting that. I'm actually very impressed. And you're a woman in STEM, so that's great. Let me tell you the most common response that I think I've gotten when I, if I tell people that I have a PhD in chemistry, I think the most common response is, what else do you do? Really? So I'm not offended by any response.

Who are these people? Do that. It's fine. I want to fight these people. Lee has fought them. Oh, good. I don't fight them. I just tell them about my awesome lesbian podcast.

That's all. I just have two very niche things. It's cool. Oh, also, really quick. I also got some, just taking the temp from the room, I was also getting some Josie and the Pussycat vibes from this movie visually. Like if Josie and the Pussycats had like a fourth of the budget. Kind of like that. That's my statement and I'm sticking to it.

And like a zillionth of the star power. Exactly. They're like, we have Holland Taylor, but we only have her for three hours, so make it count. And she'll only film in one room. So we have to green screen it every time. 50% of this movie takes place in the same room and I love it. It's great. Okay.

So should I do the recap of the movie Debs? Yes, please. Okay. We start with some wild voiceover that says that there is a secret test hidden within the SAT that measures a student's innate ability to lie, cheat, fight, and kill. And those who score well on this test are recruited into a secret paramilitary academy, and they call themselves DEBS. D-E-B-S. secret paramilitary academy and they call themselves debs the ebs the like first 30 seconds of this movie i was like what the huh i just like watch it three times to just be like i get the feeling they're not going to explain this again and they don't they never do also do we ever find out what debs stands for? Yes, we do. What is it? End game.

Yeah. Yeah. We find out at the very end. What does it stand for? It stands for. Discipline, energy, and beauty.

Oh, but it's also like debutantes because end game is like prom. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, she does. I freak.

Doesn't like Holland Taylor indirectly define it like 10 minutes before the movie's over yes a choice yeah when she's reprimanding amy a choice was made okay for being a big old lesbian how dare she yes you're one to talk holland taylor you're one to talk i know they're i but this was like pre holland Holland Taylor didn't come out until a few years ago, right? Yeah, she was not out when this movie was made. I mean, for sure. She was leaving breadcrumbs for all of us. Yeah.

Okay, so that's some of the background on Debs. Then we meet several of the Debs as they're on their way to Debs Academy. It's almost like Santa University. It's almost like Santa University. Definitely getting some Santa University vibes. Yeah, for sure. For sure. We meet Dominique. She is French. She's always smoking a cigarette. Very sex positive. Yeah. She's got many different dudes in her bed over the course of the movie. We meet Janet. She's a little absent-minded. She's a little flighty. We meet Max. She is the squad captain.

And then we meet Amy. She is the top student at Debs Academy. She's a great spy. And she is in the middle of breaking up with her boyfriend, Bobby. Oh, Bobby. Bobby. He sucks so hard hard what a chug

they did not do they're like no no nothing that's likable for bobby hey jeff stultz would have been like hot off of his seventh heaven run at this point right true oh i had i forgot that that was where i recognized him from there are so many people in this movie where you're like, oh, I know that you're from somewhere. I feel like he wasn't much more likable in Seventh Heaven to me. I mean, he's pretty horrible in this movie, though. Yeah, he's the worst. I mean, down to the puka shells.

Oh, God. Always bragging about his dad. Yeah, puka shells that belong to his father, right? What is that? Yes. He's like, here are my dad's shells. Please sort this out in therapy. Keep your shells out of this.

Yeah, for real. He carries around a collection of his father's bracelets for some unknown reason. And it's always urgent for him to put the bracelet on her in midair. He's like, no, you've got to put it on my dad's bracelet now. Love it. Okay. So the four of these Debs meet up with Phipps, who is played by Michael Clark Duncan. Love it.

And Ms. Petrie, who is Holland Taylor. Queer icon. Queer icon. And they're like, hey, Lucy Diamond is back in the States. Do you think Lucy Diamond might be a reference to something? Nothing that I've ever heard of. I actually don't really. Such a general name.

It's so weird that those two words would be associated. I don't know. I feel like it's completely original and not an allusion to anything. Sick. Just checking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah okay so she lucy diamond is a smuggler she's the leader of a crime syndicate she's jordana brewster yes she's ridiculously hot she's very hot very which amy definitely recognizes uh-huh yeah oh i just didn't

expect her to be so real. Real. So good. She's straight out of like many shampoo hair commercials, even though no one's ever survived an encounter with her. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And she is planning to meet up with an ex-KGB turned assassin named Nekochka. Nenotchka. Nenotchka.

I like Nekochka a lot more. I simply cannot pronounce names is what I'm finding out. Yeah, Nikotchka Brijana. Finding out. Yeah. And so Phipps is like, hey, Debs, do surveillance on Lucy. But here's the thing. It's very dangerous because Lucy has never

fought anyone who has lived to tell about it. Amy is especially excited because she's writing her thesis on Lucy Diamond. Of course she is. And are they supposed to be the same age? That was a question. I was like, was she writing her thesis on someone her age or is she supposed to be a little bit older? It's really unclear in the same way that it's unclear. Like, it seems like they're supposed to be in college through this but they treat them like high schoolers the whole time and they're dressed like stereotypical private school high school student well i don't know typical private well i guess yeah i think uh they would definitely be sent to the principal's office

yeah they're dressed like a ha costume of Academy. Oh, yeah. We'll talk about that. But, yeah, I think they're meant to be, like, seniors in college, basically, because they say they're in their fourth year of Debs Academy. So Lucy's just like a renegade dropout who blazed her own trail and thus is essay material. True. Yeah. Hard to say how old Lucy is meant to be. I got the impression that she was maybe a few years older than the Debs. But, again, hard to say how old lucy is meant to be i got the impression that she was maybe a few years older than the debs but again hard she's hot i mean right um here's what we

know she's hot she has a friend named scud yes i don't have any more questions and we meet the two of them and we find out that lucy is planning to meet up with this Nanachka woman because they are going on a blind date. And we're like, whoa, Lucy is a queer icon, as it turns out. Scud is really wanting Lucy to be in love. Scud is such a good wingman. Scud is like, it's practically his job. Like, we don't really see him do much else other than be like, you gotta be in love, Lucy. Move on.

You got this. I was like, damn, Scud. You're really rooting for her. Scud is like a walking Lesbro slash motivational poster in human form. Yeah. You have to be open to love. He's so supportive. That's great.

Peak Scud. So the Debs go to the restaurant for this stakeout. And Lucy shows up. And she's there with her date. And it's not going very well. They're in a very tall restaurant. Yeah. The ceilings are like 80 feet high.

And no one ever looks up. No. Lucy does. It actually is a pool. If anyone noticed. No. I just noticed this for the first time. Yeah, it's definitely an empty pool that they turned into a restaurant because on the wall it says like something about swimming.

And if you look on the sides, there are little things that say the height of it, which is six feet. So it's not that tall. Oh my God. Fun fact. Excellent budget they had there great great great so lucy does spot the debs who are just like hanging out in the rafters and so this leads to a big shootout whoa whoa whoa wait it's not that she spots them it's that Bobby is an idiot with the bracelets ahead of his Chekhov's

gun bracelets. As you're so wont to do when you're hanging in little swings from a restaurant's 30-foot ceiling on an espionage stint. They're all in circus swings as part of the plan.

And then every single one of Bobby's dad's bracelets is a Chekhov's gun the second it comes out because it's just going to happen. I would also like to believe that there's an entire semester's class of Debs Academy that is solely devoted to balancing on those swing seats. On the circus swings?

Well, because they can shift them back and forth. And they don't seem perturbed at all no and the swings don't swing that much they seem pretty stationary i'm interested in this technology same so there's this big shootout and uh lucy and amy find themselves face to face but instead of killing each other they sort of vibe i. I love that scene. Yes, it's great. And then Lucy gets away and she goes to Scud and she's like, hey, I met someone. Her name is Amy Bradshaw. And Scud is like, you can't like her.

She's a Deb. And she's like not just a Deb. She's like the Neo. The Deb. She's the perfect score, which again, we just have some very subtle coded language in here. And then Lucy sneaks into Amy's room and she's like, go out with me. If you do, I'll tell you what you want to know for your thesis. Janet crosses their paths, one of the other Debs.

And so she and Scud get dragged along to this like nightclub that they end up going to and amy and lucy start to get to know each other and then they almost kiss and also scud and janet are vibing they're vibing pool table there's a lot going on there's a lot going on there's a pool table there's a bunch of people that are like straight out of your you know mid-2000s mall hot topic so many mohawks it's a lot of like giant metal ball necklaces there actually is a guy with a potato sack on his head too i'm not even kidding really i've seen this movie so many times that the last time i watched it i paused it at a certain point because i was like is that a potato sack and it it was. Oh, my God. So just letting you know. Look out for that.

A lot of Easter eggs. Because I will watch this movie again. I think it's so much fun. Yeah, it's a blast. So she and Lucy almost kiss, but Amy is confused about her sexuality. So she gets up and leaves abruptly. And now we're back at Debs Academy. And Ms. Petrie is all like, hey, Amy, lead this investigation to find Lucy.

And she also gets promoted to squad captain. Because she survived the Lucy encounter. Yes. So everyone's like, wow, what a hero. And then Max is all upset because she's like, wait a minute, I'm squad captain. This means there's some tension between Amy and Max. And as they stated whilst on the swings, they're best friends. And also Max did something that I'm like, okay, this isn't what a great friend would say, but it did make me laugh.

When she was just like, promise you'll never go to art school. I'm like, I wish I had a friend who had said that to me. Right, because Amy doesn't have that much interest in being like a spy she wants to go to art school in barcelona exactly yeah which is just like i feel like the default for any like broody girl in a 90s 2000 movie yeah i just want to be an artist or or a lesbian i mean just any lesbian either or right it should have been a hint. Read the signs, Amy. Read the signs. So then Lucy robs a bank just so that the Debs will, like, go and try to stop her because she's trying to lure Amy there so she can get closer to her.

And then Amy's like, ah, sorry, but I'm not romantically interested in you, Lucy. But then. Also, but and then in that scene, Lucy also almost kills the Debs. And is like, it's a booby trap. I'm like, um, excuse me. You almost killed the Debs. Yeah. She's like, what a good prank, huh? I'm going to laugh about this later.

I was just like, I don't know if I want to be in a relationship with this woman now. I mean, we'll talk about the nature of their, like, the whole... There's some strange twists. Yeah. Yeah. So they kiss, Lucy and Amy kiss, and Amy's all like, she changes her mind, she goes with Lucy.

The Debs all think that she's been kidnapped, but it's really just them hanging out, spending time together, and having a great time. Which is a great montage. Also, they do appear to be in plain sight almost all the time. Right. Also, the montage is confusing time-wise, because to me, this montage appears to take place over the course of many moons.

Yeah, a long time. But they do mention later that she's only kidnapped for a week. Seven days. Yes. moons yeah a long time but they do mention later that she's only kidnapped for a week seven days so they really they just kind of made it seem a little bit more than it was maybe they they move really fast i guess the two of them lesbians let's let's not talk about lesbian stereotypes quite yet but you know also they're in their college age i feel like in college a million times i would tell i would tell anyone I loved them after a week. I'm like, yeah.

They're like, do you love me? I'd be like, sure. I don't know. Could be true. So then Miss Petrie orders a search for Amy, and the Debs find her while she and Lucy are naked and kissing. And so in an effort to cover up what would be a scandal for deb's academy since like amy was consorting with the enemy right they plan to instead they're going to name her deb of the

year at the big end game event and it's max's idea it's max's idea and she's very smart and she's going to give a speech to accept this award so to speak and her ex-boyfriend bobby is going to give a speech to accept this award so to speak and her ex-boyfriend Bobby is going to be there with her to make it look like they're together nobody has ever been more excited to take out a girl who has no interest in them than Bobby is to take her to endgame yes when they're dancing on the dance floor she's literally like standing still he's like busting all these moves. He doesn't look at her at all. Bobby is such a chode. It's wild. I was pissed when Max called Bobby when

they had a lead on where Amy was. I was like, man, Max, that's not what a friend does. Don't call the ex-boyfriend who wears puka shells. Never call him. Never. Never wears puka shells never call him never ever never call puka shell guy ever so we're almost at the end of the movie um everyone is mad at amy for her whole like consorting with the enemy thing and she's forced to suppress her

feelings for lucy and say that she's not in love with her, even though we know that she is. Because she said it. Oh, wait. Sorry, super quickly. We missed a really important part of the movie. Oh, what? The montage where Lucy Diamond decides to reform her ways. Oh, my God. Yes, because in order to be in love,

you do need to change everything about yourself. Right. Exactly. Lucy's like, I'll do whatever it takes to win Amy back. And so she starts to return all the money that she stole from people. With the help and support of Scud. Scud is there. They're singing karaoke together in what appears to be her bedroom.

It definitely is her bedroom. Then they pan out and there's four other people there dancing. It's ridiculous. Every crime operation has their backup dancers okay yeah yeah it's true especially during a reform montage she's crying out loud she has a little batman signal that says lucy diamond that turns into amy be mine it's great so now we're at end game which is essentially this ball prom kind of thing and amy is giving her speech and lucy shows up to be like hey i actually love you and we should be together which was sort of scott's idea

um and then amy is like hey here's my speech it's such an honor to be a deb and blah blah blah and then she's like but just kidding and then she's yeah she literally gives the whole speech and then she's like comma jk and and that is why i actually need to tell you that i love lucy diamond uh also wait can we just comment real quick on the speech accepting the deb's highest award yes jane oh, was that a weed joke? Didn't get it. It's just... They're throwing them left and right. Wow. Damn.

Look, it's taken many viewings of this movie to just really pick out all of the super subtle hints and, you know, just hidden language in there. There's a lot of, first of all, really funny jokes. And I feel like a lot of them are fairly subtle. Like, there was stuff I was picking up on, didn't pick up on until my like second viewing and I feel like there's still a lot of stuff that I missed so yeah I'm excited to go back and re-watch it so uh Amy's like she professes her love for Lucy Lucy is there there's this big fight that unfolds

and then Lucy and Amy are running around the cross paths again at the same place that they did the first time they meet and they're like oh my god let's be together and all the devs show up and they're like wait that's so wait does that mean that end game took place in the pool restaurant oh I guess they did have one building for 10 days. But that takes place in, it's like a warehouse that they're running around in. So maybe they should know where they are. Yeah, the basement warehouse under the pool restaurant. Which is also in Deb's Academy, maybe?

Deb's Academy, the exterior may have been mostly a green screen. I'm not totally sure. I don't, I guess they could have been in a green screen i'm not totally sure i don't i guess they sort they could have been in the pool restaurant so then amy and lucy are like uh yeah let's be together and the dubs are like okay we accept you and that is pretty much the end of the movie yeah they ride off into the sunset they ride scott and janet get together too yes Yes. Yes, that's true. Happy endings all around. Indeed. And then she has to be like, this is my boyfriend's scud.

Which is too bad. That's a sequel. So that's the story. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pardenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions, like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions.

Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Sanner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100 percent of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got

some exciting news for you. You know, we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.

I feel some Sandra Bernhard in you. Oh my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hanken's thing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke.

What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Ludi. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it.

It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Hi. Hello.

There's so much to talk about. Lots to talk about. So to start us off, Lee and Ellie, we just wanted to get your take on just kind of the overall representation. As we already kind of talked about um this is one of the very few like fun queer women movies that exist at all um still to this day so we just want to kind of get your initial thoughts on like the representation of queer women in this movie and just sort of your initial take on on that there's a lot there's a lot to be said there's so much i mean one thing we will say is i wish it wasn't so accurate to be like oh here's one

lesbian she's a crime lord and here's the other lesbian she's an overachieving student and they're gonna like move in and fall in love in approximately three hours um and yeah well we have yeah well we have you hauling which like we like to say is a lesbian trope that honestly is true like you know when you're like that's a stereotype but then you look around at all your friends and they're all live together and they've been together for like six months. So describe for us what U-Hauling means. OK, so U-Hauling is a lesbian term where basically there's a joke. What does a lesbian bring on a first date?

A U-Haul. Basically that they can move in together, move in together very quickly. Oh, I'd never heard that term before. That's funny. Oh, really? I thought that like everyone knew you, Holly. But we just live in a lesbian world, so. Wow.

Yes. So it's a stereotype that lesbians move very quickly, fall in love very fast, and go through like every stage of the relationship very quickly. So seven days isn't really that unrealistic. No, it's not. I know. I wish it was't really that unrealistic. No, it's not. I know. I wish it was less accurate, but. Yeah, that's pretty accurate.

I do want to talk a little bit about one of the things that I think is problematic about Lucy Diamond. Yes. Even though I love her and she's so beautiful, she is the predatory lesbian stereotype. Yes. Like, which, what I mean by that is you have in lesbian movies usually one person who is already out and a lesbian or a bisexual, however they identify, but they're already out. And then you usually have someone who's in the closet and you have this person who's already out pursuing them very aggressively

and then kind of like trying to coax them out of the closet trying to like turn them in a way which is very problematic so lucy diamond at one point says she's into me but she just doesn't know it yet right and then continues for the entire movie to basically hold Amy hostage in order to get her to fall in love with her. Right. Yes. Right. I found this to be very similar to another problematic trope that we come up upon in hetero romance movies. Just any predatory romance in general right like basically framing stalking

as romantic where she does so many different things where she shows up in amy's room various times uninvited she threatens her with a weapon to get amy to go out with her she robs a bank and then almost kills her friends to again try to get closer to her. I still can't get over the whole booby trap excuse. I'm like, who are you kidding? And Amy also is like, it's very sweet that you did that for me. Is it sweet? Like, I don't know if that's the right term.

I feel like they're all things where if any part of this movie was even a little bit serious, it would immediately fall apart. Yeah, for sure. Because this is a very silly, campy movie. Oh, yeah. But yeah, that was one of the biggest things I noticed as well, where Lucy, she is basically stalking Amy, but it's framed as romantic. And this method of seduction yields successful results because they end up together and not for nothing i found it interesting where i totally agree that there's

are like elements of predatory romance between lucy and amy but bobby kind of does the same thing to amy at the beginning of the movie where she can't get away from him and he's like why'd you break up with me why'd you break up with me and he's like popping up on all her devices then he slides in on his freaky swing he's like he's like why'd you break up with me here where my dad's bracelet and like it it seems like a pattern in amy's romantic life yeah but the story doesn't really address that well and when when bobby's doing it it's framed as she feels as though she's being pestered and which is true it's annoying yeah but then when lucy does it it's like oh wow look how much she likes amy and look at all the effort she's going through to try to get with her if someone keeps almost killing other people

you just simply shouldn't be with them in fact lucy even says at one point to amy she's like you say i can't see you i see see you anyway. It's this little game we play. And it's supposed to be this like, you know, cute moment, but it's like, no, you're stalking her. Right. It's like, is it a game or do you have a tracker that somehow can identify everyone in the world is either not Amy or Amy? And she does have that, yes. And then when the writing also indicates that being stalked is secretly what

Amy really wanted anyways. And Amy really did want Lucy coming after her because this is what she... It's just not a good message for young impressionable little twerps. No, not really even even if that predatory lesbian returns giant cartoon sacks of money with dollar signs on them

which just not enough well that was another i mean that was another uh thing that sort of bugged me about their relationship and i guess mean, it is such a campy movie that it's not like I feel like, no, I wish she was a mean bank robber forever. But that felt like another well-worn trope of like one person needs to change everything about themselves for this relationship to work. Like you have to,

where there's literally that scene with Scud, I just can't say it enough we're like lucy's like man i really love amy and scud's like so do you want to give up everything you've worked for and lucy's like yep cue the montage well and it's funny too because there's this huge running theme in the movie about like finding yourself right and they have that whole conversation when she's kidnapped being like you know you should be doing what you love and lucy's like i am doing what i love but then she like tosses that out the window you know maybe she could be a pirate though lee oh that's true maybe she'll yeah that was so weird too when amy's like lucy

pirates are criminals and lucy's whoops oh everything I want to be falls under the criminal category so now what's she going to do after she's returned all this money like can she even afford to live now it seems like she probably can't afford rent on her big warehouse two people cannot live on a

art grad student salary I was going to say if Lucy's about to go to grad school they're fucked i do not assume that she did very well on her sats because she definitely assaulted that dude there oh god yeah there's i mean who knows there's a lot of parts of that relationship that just don't work in terms of setting an example but there are other scenes between the two of them that I really liked. I really liked that scene where they were talking about, you know, Amy is going with the path that she was put on without questioning it.

And then Lucy's challenging that. And she's like, yeah, I do bad stuff. But it's like that was a choice I made. And I stood by it, which makes it weirder that she dials back on it later right I liked that scene between them a lot like they do seem to challenge each other in a lot of ways and don't hold back which is nice because Amy doesn't do that with her friends as much right yeah you do I feel like in so many mainstream movies which of course are mostly hetero you see the romantic relationship if there is one in the movie you rarely get a sense of like why the two characters like each

other or what they connect about or what they even talk about but i feel like in this movie you get a more of a sense of why they connect and yeah and it is i mean for the first chunk of it, Lucy is using some very questionable tactics and not even just the stalker stuff. It's like she's also kind of like negging her and or like being condescending to her. Like in the scene when they're in the nightclub, she's just kind of like being mean to her in a weird way. Well, that's that's flirting, right? Yeah, that is flirting you're right yeah yeah yeah the timeless tactic that works on us all the the thing that comes out in the scene in in the club that made me laugh the most was like you can tell that maybe at some point

uh angela robinson gets the story note that like uh we should make it like don't make Lucy too bad. Because in that like, Amy's like, well, haven't you killed a lot of people? And Lucy's like, no, they died of various diseases and or froze to death. So I'm actually a viable love interest. And Amy's like, okay. Because I'm not a murderer. I'm just a robber. Yeah.

That made me, I don't know. I thought that that was like very fun, that made me, I don't know. I thought that that was like very fun, campy, on purpose, bad writing. And I enjoyed it. I hope it was on purpose, because if not, that is nuts. Right. Well, and that's sort of the one line where Amy's like, you're just not what I expected, you know? Yeah. And you're like, ah, yes, I'm sold on this now.

Yeah, you know when you ask someone if they murdered someone and they say no, you just believe them. Right. If they're hot. But only if they're hot. Yeah, only if you want to kiss them. Yeah. That's it. And yeah, well, and I think it's believable, too, because their actual sexual chemistry is really believable which we don't get very often

in lesbian films because you have less of them so the percentage of like good chemistry is going to be lower right sure yeah but i actually like them together like when they're romantically together they're cute together they're believable they're super cute together i was rooting for them that montage it's adorable yeah a lot of sitting on cars the milk yeah yeah spooning on cars milkshakes i'm like yeah sure gifting each other handcuffs yes just just cute stuff uh a thing i wanted to talk about is in terms of like the queer representation i feel like if there is a character in a movie who is like identifiably a lesbian in mainstream movies, she's I feel like she's often she will often be fairly butch presenting. Unsurprisingly, a lot of these movies are written by straight people who have like a very specific idea of what lesbians look like and how they present um so it's like pulling from those

stereotypes and then helping to reinforce them in this movie the two queer characters who we see are very femme and i feel like you rarely see that in not that this is an especially mainstream movie but like I said in in mainstream movies you're seeing these very stereotypical ideas of how lesbians present and it's always like plaid flannel wearing like short hair like you know nice pair of overalls yeah yes well and this this is also one of the only movies that you have both of them being femme I do feel like a lot of the times you have one super butch lesbian and then one bisexual feminine woman like that's like a very common pairing but to have both of them be femme presenting is not as usual that's what I was because I think they are trying to be

like well look there are different lesbians, but only if one looks like a man and one looks like a woman. Right. And, like, they have this, like, heteronormative look to them, even though they're lesbians. Right. Yeah. So I thought that was, at the very least, interesting that you see that on screen when it's normally not that way.

Well, while we're on the topic of how characters are presented in this movie, just like a quick moment for wardrobe choices. Oh, yes. In this movie. So it's a camp movie. I get that. However, I mean, I think that this movie, it's confusing because this movie is so over the top campy at times.

And I'm like, I don't know if you are making a point or if this is just what was in the budget. I had the same. It's hard to know sometimes. I wasn't sure if the costumes were commentary or if they were just not great enough money for more fabric. Yeah, the budget being whatever they found in Angela Robinson's pockets that day. Yeah. Right. for more fabric yeah the budget being whatever they found in angela robinson's pockets that day yeah right because they are wearing private school girl plaid skirts like that are way shorter than even the other students at deb's academy i forget who said earlier that it looks like halloween costumes that seems like the perfect description which one is not appropriate for the spy stuff that they're doing like no because some of them

are wearing heels the swings too if anyone ever looks up exactly if anyone looks up in that huge restaurant they're going to be like you know i you know i i don't know we do know we we know what you're getting at here i don't there's the's the wardrobes. And this falls into like, I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of this movie seems to be parodying movies like Charlie's Angels. Right. But seem to just sort of be making some of the same choices without much commentary at times. Like if there was ever a point in the movie where it was pointed out that like, hey, this outfit doesn't make sense for what we're doing. Then I would sort of be more willing to be like, oh, it's satire.

But they're just kind of always dressed in ways that they could be so easily killed. Right. Not practical. And also where you just have to wonder, I mean, for how many guns they carry in this film, where are they keeping them? Where do you hide your eight guns in that skirt? That's what I want to know. And they're huge.

Huge guns. Yeah, I had a lot of these very same questions. Also, when you consider what I imagine is the intended audience of this movie, which is queer women, it then becomes, I guess, catering to like the queer female gaze rather than the male gaze, because, you know, it's these traditionally by Western beauty standards, traditionally beautiful women who all have the same body type, they're wearing these tiny skirts, some of them are wearing shirts that reveal their midriff, like some of them are in heels so it's catering to i would think a different gaze than we're used to seeing when it's you know a mainstream but the outfits are the same but they are the same and it is still showing like this very specific and rigid

standard of beauty because again they all have the same body type. Yeah, there's no diversity in terms of body type in this movie really at all. No. I mean, Max is a little shorter than the rest of them. That's my opinion. I was talking to my boyfriend about this movie today. I guess he saw it on the Sundance channel when his mom wasn't home and he was 12, and he was like, it honestly changed my life. Wow.

It's one of Isaac's favorite movies. No way. I didn't realize girls could kiss other girls. He was like, my mom wasn't home and I just like, I taped it. I was like, that's adorable. We have to take another quick break, but we will come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who, on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now.

The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pardenti.

And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice.

And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it, like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We feel some Sandra Bernhard in you. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hanken's thing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke.

What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Luge. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it.

It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaking of the where do they keep their guns question, there are women with actual weapons in this movie, and it makes sense for the genre. But we've covered so many movies recently where if a woman has to fight someone,

because they're a woman, they're fighting with kitchen appliances or cookware or knitting needles. Or their words. Right. Fighting, fighting words. So in this movie, at least the women have guns. Not that I'm pro-gun by any stretch.

But in an action movie, it stands to reason. Yes. I mean, there are a lot of ways in which I have to say the women, you know, they get guns. They have agency. They're smoking. They're, you know, like sneaking boys into their rooms like there's a lot of things where they don't they don't really kind of treat them like they're not able to do the things that they're supposed to be doing it's just right in a very very campy way

yeah well and even in their hand-to-hand combat i don't think a deb has ever been knocked out but like all the men are just incapacitated that is one of the cool yeah i totally agree is is their abilities are never called into question which although i have one important question about deb's abilities which is when you have end game right and lucy crashes end game and amy runs away with her and everyone sees Lucy Diamond and that dude sounds the alarm and everyone freaks out and starts running. Isn't every single person at Endgame supposed to be a highly trained guy? Oh, yeah. They lose their minds.

They're like, ah! Right. That is a great point. Why are those four devs the only devs who seem to have any idea of what they're doing i just think that when i was during my first viewing and then for some reason during the second viewing i was like i guess i don't care but like in at the dev school i'm like why are they the only four that ever get to do anything are the other devs just not ready or are they doing stuff we just don't know they? They're freshmen. What are their classes about?

I think they're the top squad. Like the top squad. Maybe they get gun privileges or something. I don't know. Seniors? Yeah. And then here's something I wasn't totally clear on. Is Debs Academy like an all-women school?

Or are there – do men go there as well? It doesn't look like it. But also, I don't know. But then what is bobby's deal because he's always wearing something that says homeland security yeah i don't think he goes to deb's academy how did they meet you know spy spy mixers oh he was like oh yeah i'm dating a deb i'm part of homeland security you meet on a stakeout at the pool restaurant. Right.

Nice meet cute. Very cute. But they do make Bobby look like an idiot. Like in all ways. Oh, yes. Like he can, they can never find Lucy Diamond. At the end, he gets beat the crap out of by Lucy Diamond. Yeah.

With literally one kick. Yes. He's out. So the men in this movie are not great. Except for Scud. Except for scud except for he also gets knocked out though by janet yeah but he lets her because he's in love he's into it yeah feminine psychon scud because love is hard ellie harder than war war is easy love is hard another thing that we don't get to talk about that much in this movie i think goes kind of halfway is you don't get to see women eat in movies a lot uh which is also crazy but we uh

there is that scene at the very beginning when they're with michael clark duncan where all four of them at least order breakfast and you hear that at least max appears to eat food and the rest maybe not as much uh but dominique literally just gets a coffee coffee black but she's also she just exists on coffee and cigarettes and that's it like all good french people do coffee cigs and sex love my new podcast yes but i i was i was like we didn't get to actually see women eat but they did order i feel like that's not quite enough but it's a step in a better direction 2005 you know getting the order that's progress i wanted to go back quickly to sort of a conversation about basically just the fighting that we see, which is often the women

fighting men. And we've talked about this on different episodes where it's like, okay, well, in an ideal world where we have gender equality, shouldn't women, like, shouldn't men be able to, like, fight women in these action scenes and, like like maybe even knock them out and stuff like that it's been a complicated subject that we don't really know how to broach especially because in movies so far in where there's action sequences where there are women fighting it's usually they're fighting other women so right or they're only given a rolling pin with which to defend themselves. In this movie, like we said, we see like women fighting and then usually kicking the shit out of the men that they're fighting. Yeah. Which, you know, I enjoyed. I feel like that's a step in the right direction. And I think that the reason that it doesn't really like I feel like that conversation, as important as it is, doesn't become super relevant to this movie because it's so campy.

And so it's not like, you know, we know that the Debs are better fighters than all the guys they're going up against going into it. So it's never like a battle to the death with a man fighting a woman. Like, you know the Deb is going to win. Right. And with a man fighting a woman like you know that deb is gonna win right and that the man isn't gonna die so the stakes don't feel quite as like you're like okay bobby's gonna get his ass kicked and we're gonna love it right well there is also some way in which it it a little bit helps the cheesy high school catholic school girl outfits is that you know when you look at Bobby and the, like, the CIA guys and all those other spies are out there with, like,

their suits and their outfits and their things and their bulletproof vests and their, you know, like, big commando boots and everything, and the Debs are just like, whatever, all I need is a tiny little skirt, maybe a flimsy button-, some heels, and a giant gun, and I'm still going to kick your ass, right? It kind of has that same thing as Buffy always did, where it's like, she's just going to be out there in her jeans and her big blue duster coat. And she'll always win. And she'll always win.

Exactly. Yeah. Hmm. I don't know. It was weird. I mean, seeing, I agree that the way that the, like, I think because the ability of the Debs is never in question, nor is the ability of Lucy, that this movie, I mean, maybe that's what makes it so easy. And it's so comical how the men are defeated that, like, it's... Because no one doesn't like watching bobby get punched in the face it's different than seeing like wonder woman versus captain america and one of them is going to kill

the other you know like it's so jamie different comic universes as you know i don't give a fuck and i never will got the day lucy diamond shows up in like the m, that's just going to be it. Oh, my God. Does that mean that if they're in different universes, they can't meet? Ever? Captain America and Wonder Woman? Ever? They can never meet. I don't imagine. Well, I mean, who knows?

Maybe Marvel and DC will, you know, 10 years down the line have to cross over. Hard to say. I hope that. Maybe there will be a Justice League league versus avengers movie in fact i'm pitching that right here and right now maybe they should just hear that hollywood they should just stop making all those there's too many i think there should be more spider-man into the spider-verse movies for sure i think there should be at least 20 of those but yeah they can take a break with these i have a feeling there there will be if you just give them time i'll be patient um okay well that's one of the things with the

movie debs is that our four main deb characters are all women the main villain is a woman the head of deb's academy which is someone who all the debs look up to is a woman all of the male characters are secondary or tertiary like you don't this is a movie populated almost entirely by women and the the men who are in this movie are hardly in this movie yeah they i mean at the beginning they try to do like michael clark duncan is very much like doing an angels wake up kind of thing and then it's immediately revealed that holly taylor is his boss right oh wait if we're gonna talk about problematic things though can we just real quick touch on mr phipps who uh i mean while we talk about lucy breaking into amy's bedroom without permission all the time can we talk about how he can apparently just like

apparate into her bedroom hologram apparating himself into the room like with no warning yeah and then has the audacity to give an inspiring monologue when he gets there it's like are you kidding me and is it inspiring after you just told someone that your basic test for aptitude is how good of a liar you are. Right. I don't. It sounds like Debs should be the bad people based on the way they describe the test. Right. How they can lie, cheat, fight, and kill. Yeah.

But then they're like, and you're the best at it, so you're a goody two-shoes. You're like, what? What? It's confusing. Who knows? But yeah, I mean, there's a few scenes where there's a room full of people. Ms. Petrie will be there. The devs will be there. There will be like maybe one or two men in the scene. And the men are just treated the way that women often are in action movies, which is that they are basically scenery who are extras who don't say anything um there's the scene where

miss petrie is promoting amy to squad captain and she's accompanied by two men and another woman and the two men don't have any lines in that scene it's only women talking there's another scene it's like the aftermath of amy being discovered, having a romantic relationship with Lucy and all the Debs are there. Miss Petrie's there. Bobby and Phipps are there. But I think Bobby has one line in that scene and otherwise men do not talk in that scene. It's just like and it's only after Max tells him exactly what he's doing. Right.

You're going to take me to end game. She's like, OK. Yeah. So, yeah, Bobby's basically in that scene to be offended that anyone might find out that his ex-girlfriend is into a girl. Right. Yeah. Which he later dials back on with a gross comment also on the swing, which I don't think

it's any mistake that that statement and the puka bracelet are in the same scene. You're like, yup. Yeah, he's like, oh, that lesbian thing? It's actually pretty hot. the same scene you're like yeah he's like oh that lesbian thing it's actually pretty hot yeah he goes it's night oh and it's fucking like ew he's like i know you still love me and uh your whole leslie thing that's kind of hot and then yeah i think that that and uh janet has one line at some point when when she's trying to like shame amy for the whole thing and she's like you're just a slut a gay slut i think those are two of the worst lines for me in terms of you know

problematic things said in the movie for sure yeah there's a few other things that are like pretty homophobic i would say in the movie but i think because it's so campy you i think you do realize like those characters are clearly they're making it portray that they're wrong even Miss Petrie tells Amy like you were out having your college lesbian experiment yeah right like this is just a phase that you're having and you if you embarrass the Debs by being an experimental lesbian which is obviously problematic right were there any characters that made those comments that didn't receive comeuppance later because i was trying to keep track of because once bobby made that comment in the scene in both of those scenes it's i don't know i my head just went to like okay he has to get his ass kicked or this

movie isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing well i think janet gets away scot-free. And she's probably the most homophobic of everyone. Because she is shaming Amy so hard for liking Lucy Diamond. When they almost kiss, she's so offended. Yeah, right. She has that whole, like, she almost kissed you, and you almost let her. You almost let her. That's something that I'm interested in and what everyone thinks about. Like the story, I feel like protects itself in a lot of ways and in a way where it's able to say kind of problematic things.

But because they set it up as like Amy's a hero and Lucy's a villain and conflating those the two issues. Right. Is sometimes they're saying something about like it's kind of coded language of like sometimes they're talking about like, well, the hero doesn't like hook up with the villain, but they're also not talking about that. I don't know. It seems like the Janet character especially kind of gets away with stuff like that

by couching it with, well, she kills people, so you can't be with her. Also, the thing I'm not fully saying. Right. Yeah. Except for the times that she does fully saying. And because that's the thing is Janet is doing all of the same stuff at the very same time. Like she's also in contact with Scud and having this whole flirtation.

But it's different because he's a boy. Right. Exactly. But I would say at least my read on it is that in most cases, in many movies, if a homophobic thing is stated, that is how the movie feels about it rather than how a character who is framed as being wrong by the movie feels about it so I feel like with the exception of Janet and her sort of weird take on everything and then getting off scot-free about it I feel like generally the homophobic things that are said are said by characters who we as the audience understand that feels more satirical and a lot and or yeah I mean even and and even with Taylor's, I kind of wish Holland Taylor's character was a little more double downed on like her being clearly very wrong. But we always know that she I mean, we it's already set up that she is a problematic person in general when she doesn't give a fuck about any of her mentees until they do something that makes her look good.

So she's already set up as a very petty person, and so when she goes on to make comments like that, it's like, well, we already don't like her. Yeah, I feel like Miss Petrie is not the redeemable character in this. I feel like the arc is supposed to teach you about finding yourself and being true to who you love. And it does that not using her. It's kind of, you know, you're watching that with Lucy and Amy. Max, to a certain extent, is a character who I think is shown having that growth of realizing like, oh, well, a true friend will support you no matter what. Right.

Agree. Max, I mean, well, we haven't talked about that friendship a lot yet but max and amy's friendship is also very interesting and also because their power dynamic in that friendship shifts a couple different times in the space of the movie where at the beginning it's clear that max is in charge of the friendship she's like hey if you go to art school i'll fucking kill you and amy's like okay and so it's like okay max is in charge and then you see her have like that crisis and it's the thing is like when amy's put in charge of the debs for not being killed by lucy i don't know exactly where the movie how the movie wants you to feel but I was like oh if

I was Max I would also be upset because Amy's always talking about how she doesn't want to be a Deb Max is busting her ass and then has it taken from her because Holland Taylor's character isn't paying close enough attention to what the truth is right and and so I was like on Max's side for a good portion and then she is very professional for the most part and like compartmentalizes and is like, OK, we're on the same team, so I'll do it. And then Amy immediately fucks up and almost gets all of her friends killed. So I'm double on Max's side. But then at the end, the dynamic switches again when Max is like okay deny everything and like play by the rules and then I didn't like her again I don't know that character is all over the

place but then she and then at the end she's like yeah she's like it's almost like careful character development was not the most important thing in this movie she's just flip-flopping all over the place I was on I was on max's side for a lot of the movie and then she she really lost me uh in that scene where it's explicitly max who is like this is my idea deny deny deny get back with your homeland security puka shell god i'm like yeah the second she suggests bobby it's all downhill for you from there, Max. And literally puts words into her mouth. She's like, here's a speech that I wrote for you.

Say everything that I say. Even when the other girls are like, what if she's in love? What if she makes her happy? I have that Amy and Max had a long discussion after the movie is over. Really sorted their shit out. Yeah shit out pops up from the back seat in the car and uh they talk out their feelings oh good well what what i couldn't help but notice about that relationship dynamic is that the two non-white debbs in the group are when it comes to dominique she has very little screen time and or bearing on the story.

Absolutely. She's basically just there as a visual joke who's always smoking a cigarette or. And having sex, which is pointed. Right. And someone even calls, I think it's Amy who calls her like a sex addict. And it's like, no, maybe she just. That whole line is problematic because she calls people crazy and sex addicts. Yes.

That whole line can go. So it's either Dominique not having any bearing on the story or it's Max whose actions are often presented as an obstacle for Amy. So she ends up being sort of an antagonistic force for Amy a lot of the time. And meanwhile, you know, Amy is a blonde white lady and the characters who are people of color are either not doing much in the story or they are in some way an antagonistic force. Yeah, I mean, they're very much there to help Amy's story develop and not much else. They're not very consistent. There's no real growth or any, like, you know, there's not as much given to them as characters.

Yeah, they're kind of props. And we want to know from our listeners, like, how you read that scene. That was the one reason why Max pushing back and being so frustrated when amy just gets promoted out of nowhere that's kind of like one of the reasons why that story point worked for me because it is just like this blonde white girl who accidentally does the right thing is is immediately put in charge and then one of the only people of color in the entire movie who we know really cares about what she's doing has gone unrecognized. Her work's gone

unrecognized forever and she's just displaced immediately and she's like she calls her friend out on it and not for that explicit reason but I don't know that was part of the reason why I was like oh yeah Max yeah fuck that like that's horrible.

But then they kind of sell that character out through poor writing. Yeah. Oh, sigh. Oh, well. Movies are bad. Well, there's another very quick problematic line that gets said by Scud whenever they are doing this bank heist to lure amy oh i know that line it's so bad he says he says the r word and no he does he does i missed that yeah scud and

it's funny because the way that he says it and the sentiment behind that line and his delivery of it is perfect and that line just needs to go is the thing. It should have been a different word. Right, like if it had been any other word. I mean, it's definitely one of those things where it's like, it is a byproduct of a movie that was made in the early 2000s and like you'd never see that

line of dialogue. I mean, I also think that's true of the guns. I feel like you would never see the movie done this way with the guns the way they are or the outfits i bet like i don't think the outfits would be quite that way yeah i think that uh i i didn't realize that the r word was used in this movie i would not to cut a break in any way but i i do sort of agree that that is a byproduct of the time it was made in yeah it is but that's what i'm surprised that it didn't jump out at you because it is it's so noticeable i feel like when you watch the movie to me it it immediately was like this beacon where

you're like oh you can't say that like you know because if you were watching it today you'd be like who approved this line right you know i was too busy whacking off to scud to listen to what he was saying understandable that might be the single worst sentence you've ever said jamie i think that's a fun phrase oh goodness um i did want to just quickly point out Amy's thesis. She says, my central hypothesis is that as a woman operating in a male-dominated field, you felt the need to overcompensate. She's talking to Lucy. You felt the need to overcompensate by being exponentially more ruthless and diabolical than your established male counterparts. And I think that these psychological forces combine to create a kind of emotional void

in which you're incapable of loving or being loved. Honestly, Amy's thesis sounds like a feminist text that I do want to read. Well, I don't know. I didn't really love that thesis. I feel like that thesis to me almost came off a little blamey of like, well, if women didn't resent their male co-workers so much, they wouldn't be killing so many people. I was like, well, hold on. I don't know. That felt a little product of its timey phrasing. Yeah, I didn't's that whole idea of it's like it's not that you can't love.

You just don't love the way everyone expects you to. You know, I did kind of like that part of it. Yeah, I like that whole scene because I don't know every scene where Lucy and Amy are pushing back on everything the other person says is good to me. It is good. It is good to me. It is good. It is good to me. There's a way in which it's, well, it's not that it's bad. It's just there's a way in which I'm going to completely undo everything we just finished saying about how, like, the Debs are just so competent. And they can do everything that men can do in heels and skirts.

And they don't need anything. Everyone in this movie is the worst spy ever. And that scene is one great example where amy's like i have you at gunpoint but like oh hold on let me just tuck my gun under my arm to shake your hand and introduce myself and tell you about my thesis and the only place where people are even worse spies than that is when the entire search and rescue operation descends upon lucy diamond's lair finds her in a sheet and doesn't arrest her still they just leave they're so shocked they just walk away and leave her there even max who's supposed to be like the secret genius of the devs is like unbelievable and just like beats it like it's

just leaves and they they leave and they don't even drive amy home they leave her to walk that they're not very good spies i'm just gonna throw that out there god damn it devs not the the last thing i i had to say uh about devs was i i went back and i watched the short film it was based on. Yes. Has anyone seen it? Yes. Yes. It is. I mean, it is so, it won a ton of awards the year it came out.

It came out in 2003. So it seems like this short film did really well and it was immediately put into production to become a movie. With the same budget. With the same budget, except most of the budget went to paying Holland Taylor. But the short film... And puka shells. High-end puka shells. If you're listening and you haven't seen the short film, highly recommend it. It is even, it moves even faster.

It's like raunchier. And if I'm not mistaken, I think that the short film does have an all queer cast, while the theatrical movie does not, or at least a majority queer cast, which I don't know. I mean, I think that, yeah, I'm not the most qualified person to make this comment. But it does seem like very often uh queer films when they're adapted for a larger audience are dare i say sanitized a little bit and straight actors are cast in queer roles i i'm fairly certain i think i if my research didn't fail me amy and lucy are played by straight actresses and in the original short film that was not the the case. Wait, is Claire Kramer queer? Am I, like, just learning this now?

In the Amy and... In the short film, the original short film. Oh, no, you're right. I think it's the four Debs that are queer. There's a majority queer cast the first time. Why would you taunt us like that? I'm so sorry. Oh, my gosh.

I'm so sorry. I was like, wait wait my whole world is opening up there no also claire kramer of glorificus fame from bubby i got really excited that she was no i'm i'm so sorry no she she appears to be the only straight woman in the movie or in fine i'm just gonna cry myself to sleep tonight. It's no problem. I've fully ruined everyone's life. The one carryover from the short film's cast is Jill Ritchie, who plays Janet, who, fun fact, is Kid Rock's sister.

So just a wild thing. Amazing. Amazing. Debs is one degree of separation from Kid Rock. Who knew? Something we all needed to know yes Leigh and Ellie do you have any other final thoughts about

the film Debs I do have one final thought which is just I think while we it's so fun to rag on Debs and I love ragging on Debs because I love it so much I do think it's important to also mention that while we make fun of their low budget and the effects and the

everything that it is interesting to see the transition from Debs to what Angela Robinson can do with a budget which is Professor Marston and it's such a far cry between those two movies that I just think it's at least worth pointing out you you know?

That Angela Robinson is still a beautiful human being. Oh, yes. For giving us Debs and Professor Marston. And Professor Marston. Yeah, agreed. And it goes to show when you have a queer woman writing and directing a movie about a queer love story, it's handled this is not to say this movie is not without its problems but it is handled much better than when these stories are attempted by non-queer people and usually those stories aren't even attempted by non-queer people but yeah it helps when the person who is creating this story and this content is someone who has experience and knowledge about these topics.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's heartening to see that someone making their perfect art about the queer spies can go on to have an incredible, I mean, she's had an incredible career. Professor Marston is amazing. She, didn't she write and direct quite a few? L Word and True Blood and like, she's like making bank. She's chilling. Yep.

Is she a woman of color? Yes. Yes. That is surprising me then the way that the women of color are treated in Debs then. But I would guess maybe it was producers. Could be. Yeah.

I also feel like I think it stands out more with Max. I don't know that Max is that much less consistent of a character than everyone else in this movie. I mean, I think it's just everybody who is not Amy and Lucy kind of gets short shrift in this. For sure. True. And Lucy, of gets short shrift in this. For sure. True. And Lucy, Jordana Brewster is part Brazilian.

I don't know exactly how she identifies in terms of her ethnic identity, but she perhaps identifies as at least mixed. Not totally clear on that, but you know, there's... I'll text her. Please text her and let us know what you find out great so does this movie pass the bechdel test yeah big fat yes on that you know an easy way to pass the bechdel test is have two women and instead of having them talk about a guy have them talk about how much they want to bone each other yeah done surefire way um and in one of the very few scenes that i found where they do talk about men they are talking about bobby and amy's like i broke up with bobby and someone

says why and she's like he was just so boring and then someone else says yeah he's an ass so when men are being talked about it's usually in an insulting way which is great um i think also a super producer sophie pointed out that this movie would not pass the reverse spectral test in that there are not two men i don't think even talking to each other in the whole movie but there might if there is I do think that that doesn't sound yeah it doesn't I don't remember

I think there's that scene where Scud's playing bingo with some guys but nobody responds to him and they certainly don't have names yeah we don't know who any of those guys are the name of my new band is Scuds Playing Bingo. And this is a rare case of a movie passing the Vito Russo test. And a few listeners are not familiar with what that is.

The Vito Russo test requires that a film must contain at least one character who is identifiably LGBTQ+. That character must not solely or predominantly be defined by their sexual orientation or gender identity. In other words, they should be made up of the same sort of unique character

traits that are commonly used to differentiate straight characters from one another. Treated like people? Yeah. Oh, so strange. Wild. And the LGBTQ character must be tied into the plot in such a way that their removal from the story would have a significant impact.

So this movie, without question, passes the Vito Russo test as well as the Bechdel test. In fact, I would say, in terms of the Bechdel test, this is just sort of like an estimated guess, but I would say around 70% of the movie is characters passing the Bechdel test. It's like constant conversations

with named women who are not talking about men. And just imagine, if they had cut Bobby's character, it could have been like 98%. Right? I think we need more Bobby erasure. Yes. Except when it's King of the Hill. In that case, more Bobby.

More Bobby? Okay, that's an interesting take. We can have a bobby debate okay so let's rate the movie on our nipple scale uh rating of zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women um hmm i this is hard this is a this is i'm gonna give it i think four nipples okay because there are brief problematic moments here and there and the movie does as we discussed subscribe to some of the stereotypes that we see of queer women but the fact that the main cast is almost entirely women and a fan and a pretty diverse cast fairly yes more diverse than your ordinary movie but certainly in 2005 yeah but still no diversity in terms of body type at least among the main

four deb's yeah i think that aside from a few problems that the movie has, which I think can be attributed to it being a movie of 2004. I would say it does fairly well in terms of showing women who have agency and who are propelling the story forward, and it's fun to watch. It's a funny movie. It is silly as fuck. But, like, as we discussed— I'm sorry, there's so little movie without the women in it the movie without any of the women is basically bobby on a swing with some bracelets screaming at the top of his lungs right the movie doesn't exist without the like six main female characters

that are needed for this story right so and scud playing bingo I would watch that short film honestly yes um so it's great and the fact that it's uh as we discussed one of only a very small number of like fun queer women comedy movies in existence um I think that's great so yeah i'm gonna go with four nipples and i'll give one to each of the four debbs oh oh yeah i'm gonna go with three and a half uh and the reason we didn't touch on this very much but something that always kind of bugs me in in movies is when friendships are disrupted by a relationship and a new relationship suddenly destroys your friendship structure entirely and sends your entire life into chaos yeah and i i was trying to like go through that uh entirely and i do think that in some ways, like Amy's relationship totally shakes the foundation of like her relationship with all of her female friends. And that was something that

like didn't, I don't know, even though like her character ultimately grows and I think finds the best of both schools of thought and whatever moves forward. That was like one thing that I was like I didn't love that I don't know I mean and I guess movies need conflict and if you have a majority female cast there's going to be a lot of uh conflict and infighting between women but just the whole new relationship uh completely destroying uh friendship group for the most part, wasn't my favorite thing. But it's also basically a queer decom, which is incredible. I don't know. I mean, it's like, it's such a fun movie. I haven't enjoyed watching a movie twice back to back in a very long time. And it's great. I mean, for all the fun ragging on the low production values,

it's a good movie, and it's funny. The story is tight. Yeah, I mean, it's less than an hour and a half long. What more could you ask for? Yeah. And so, I mean, I thought it was a blast. So I'll give it a three and a half, or three and three quarters. I don't know.

Somewhere, it's a scientific, there's a Wikipedia page. Did you see that where people are leaving? So now I feel more conscientious of my nipple ratings and I'm like losing sleep over it. Wait, there's a Wikipedia page for us? For us. And then they write down what the nipples we gave it. Oh, wow.

It's really stressful actually. I knew about the page. I didn't know that they were like documenting all of our nipple giving. It's updated rather frequently. Okay, so for whoever's making theikipedia page I say 3.75 and I answer yes final answer I'm gonna give also if you are making the wikipedia page let us know that it's you so that we can credit you if you want. So I guess I'm gonna give one to each of the Debs, except I'm giving slightly less of one to Janet.

Okay. Sorry, Janet, but you are Kid Rock's sister, so life's hard. Leigh, do you want to go next with your rating? Yeah, I do. And I'm so torn as well, because I feel like if I vote with my heart and my nostalgic love for this movie, I want to give it four nipples. I do also feel like I think it comes in slightly lower than that. And I think my problems do have to do somewhat with the fact that I think Ellie and I both have our issues with the whole predatory lesbian trope. And I also do have an issue with the fact that i feel like they really toy in this with um

the age that they're supposed to appear and so when you combine the predatory lesbian trope with the fact that they're very much casting them as like high school girls even though they try to make it clear that they're not yeah but it sort of keeps presenting them that way like i that i have a hard time with so yeah i mean maybe maybe somewhere around you know three and a half can we do we get to assign them as well yes oh this is so exciting i wasn't i didn't prepare well enough for this uh okay if i have to assign three and a half nipples i'm gonna assign uh one to Scud for his excellent motivational quotes. I'm going to give one to Max because I just, I think Max should get something more in this movie.

I'm going to give one to Angela Robinson. Nice. For, you know, just the gift of this and other things that she has given queer women. And I'm going to save my last half a nipple and i'm gonna gift it to australia because like what did australia do to you australia gets sank or almost like their attitude all right well i i think i have to agree with you lee that it's around three and a half mine is because of some of the homophobic comments that just like, even if you're saying them in satire, I think they

create a problematic message of friends not being supportive of their friends in lesbian relationships. And I think also the relationship between Lucy and Amy where of course I love seeing them together but when you actually take their relationship and put it on paper it's very stalkery yes so I really don't like that that being said I am gonna give a nipple to Lucy Diamond because nobody has given her a nipple yet so true and she just what a hero Ellie she needs one, right? I'm also going to give a nipple to Max, of course. And Miss Petrie because I love her all the time. Yeah. And then half will have to go to Dominique because I feel like she's the underdog of this.

She has a lot of agency and she's very sex positive to me. She's so sex positive. Even though Amy calls her a sex addict. Yeah. There we go. Love it. Well, thank you, to both of you, so much for being here with us. This has been such a fun

episode and such a fun movie to discuss. Thank you for having us. Of course. Where can people find you and follow you online? Is there anything that you would like to plug? In terms of social media, you can find us at Les Hangout Pod on all the social medias, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. And we also have a YouTube channel, youtube.com slash leshangoutpod.

And we post songs on there. We actually write original songs based on lesbian movies. Oh, cool. So you can see some of those on our youtube channel yes um you can also follow us uh individually our our social media things i'm on twitter and on instagram at lsh foster and i'm at ellie brigida uh and we do want to plug we have our very first live show coming up on february 18th at the bell house in Brooklyn. So we will be doing some fun things there about movies that should have

been gay, even if they weren't. Ooh, that sounds awesome. Yeah. Take a trip to New York. Probably going to do one in LA at some point. So hopefully.

Yay. Catch you there. Yeah. Let us know. Well, thank you again so much for being here uh you can follow us the bechtel cast on social media platforms at bechtel cast you can subscribe to our patreon aka matreon where you get two bonus episodes every single month and

it's only five dollars a month you can go to Bechtelcast.com. We have our merch store there. Or you can go to tpublic.com slash the Bechtelcast. And you can get all of our cool merch, all of our designs, all of our items are right there. Yeah. Get it for your sweetheart. Oh, yeah. Or yourself.

Anybody. Or your brother or your sister. Literally anyone. Whatever floats your boat. I just gave my dad a Bechdel cast mug because my dad is a dad and therefore he likes mugs. Dads love mugs. And I sent it to him and he sent me back a text of his mug full of pens, and the caption was, My pens! So Bechtelcast mugs are great for pens.

Must love mugs is my dad's dating profile. And rate and review us on iTunes and all that fun stuff. And otherwise, we'll see you next week. Bye! Bye! all that fun stuff and uh otherwise i will see you next week bye bye daphne caruana galicia was a maltese investigative journalist who on october 16th 2017 was assassinated crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one woman wiki leaks she exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadson. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice.

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