The Bechdel Cast - Desert Hearts with Emily Mills

Episode Date: June 25, 2026

 This week, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Emily Mills hang out on a divorce ranch in Reno and chat about Desert Hearts (1985)! Here's the article about Black women in the Reno divorce scene -- https://renodivorcehistory.org/wp-content/uploads/imported-library/ebony-8-1950.pdf Follow Emily on Instagram at @dj_millbot and @damseltrash and check out their newsletter at gristfromthemills.com and their website at emilymills.orgSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. On the pectocast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing. vast start changing it with the becdo cast kaitland what are we going to do in 40 minutes oh my god um talk and kiss

well probably not kiss because they're in public but definitely talk about our feelings okay i was i thought maybe record a scintillating conversation on a podcast the least sexual thing you can do i think podcasting is one of the least sexually charged jobs i beg to differ for who for who for who i don't You know what? I'm horny all the time when we're talking. Wow. Oh my gosh. Wow. Wait, I'm realizing. We need to take this off, Mike. Oh, let's get a hotel room. Let's get a hotel room. Oh, my God, in Reno. I just, this movie is so beautiful. Welcome to the Bechtel cast. My name's Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. a very relevant test and the origins of this test are also very relevant for today's movie and discussion. So, Jamie, tell us all about it. Yes, I was going to say the same thing because this

movie and the Bechtel test are in direct discussion and also are released the same year. The Bechdel Test is first mentioned. As we talk about all the time, the Bechtel test was created by Friend of the Show, Alison Bechtel, who originally did not. seek out to make a media metric, but basically wrote this as a one-off joke in her wonderful comics collection, Dikes to Watch Out for in 1985. Interestingly, the same year of Desert Hearts. And the precise origins of the task are very relevant to our episode today. She co-created it with her friend Liz Wallace, which we, Bechtelcast Exclusive, learned, met each other in karate class and fell out of touch. So I was expecting a whole sweeping.

beautiful story and it turns out sometimes you just take a karate class with a lady and move on with your life. But I'm so glad they took that test because it changed the course of history in some ways. So shout out to that karate class in I think Portland, Oregon. In any case, this test has since been adapted to a more mainstream media metric. The version that we use, and then I'll get back to how it started, the version we use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man for more than two meaningful lines of dialogue. However, the actual more specific origin of the test was in a single strip of Thanks to Watch Out for that is basically poking fun at and pointing out how few lesbian

romances there are in movies and how that creates the need for queer people to, you know, ship characters that may not be intended to actually be romantic. romantically involved by the text. It's something we talked about on the show many times before and is very like kind of fun way that Alison Bechtel was pointing out that there's basically no lesbian representation in movies in 1985. And then until. Until.

Desert Hearts, which was released. I think it was formally released in 1986, but it first came out at the La Carno Film Festival in 1985. directed by the iconic Donna Deach, screenplayed by Natalie Cooper, and based on a novel that was actually written at the time that the movie takes place in the 50s Desert of the Heart by Jane Rule, who I'm so excited to talk about because I didn't know anything about her before yesterday. And so, yeah, there's a lot of fascinating history with this movie,

and it is, I think, maybe more than any other movie we've covered in direct conversation with the Bechtel Test. So exciting stuff. Very exciting. Jane Lynch has seen this movie 50 times I learned today. Wow. She's moderated multiple interviews with Donna Deach. And Donna Deach is like, I haven't seen this movie 50 times. And Jane Lynch was like, well, someone had to do it and it was me.

Wow. It's like us and Titanic vibes. I mean, it truly, like sometimes the right movie finds you at the right time. And obviously, Jane Lynch speaks on this beautifully and hilariously. but she was the age, she was Vivian Bell's A, or no, she was, wait, how old is Jane Lynch? She was one of the main characters age when it came out. Either Kay or Vivian, I honestly don't know. Okay, it would have been, it would have been K. Okay, so she was like 25. Okay.

Yes, and just got absolutely swept up by this movie. She said her VHS tape broke. So, shout out. Classic. Shout out Jane. Yeah. And we have an incredible guest. And I just like, We just got to jump into it. I'm so excited. We really do. They are a Madison-based writer, musician, DJ, editor of Our Lives, which is Wisconsin's only and longest-running LGBTQ media outlet. They are a longtime listener, first-time guest. Yay.

It's Emily Mills. Welcome. Thank you so much. I am thrilled to be here, truly. Oh, we're so delighted to have you. you wrote a piece about this movie, which is how we found you and reached out to you. And who better to talk about this movie with us than you? I was curious.

I'm like, has no one written something more recently? I mean, this is just me being self-effacing, but I was so happy you found that piece. It's for a local Madison outlet that had really great film coverage called Tone, which unfortunately shuddered this last year. But it gave me the excuse to talk about this movie when they were doing a special screening of it in town. alongside an art exhibit that went kind of thematically along with it. But yeah, I'm so delighted

that you found it and I'm really delighted to be here to talk about this movie that I that I love, especially for Pride Month. I've been having a pride-packed weekend, so this feels like a really great way to top it off. Amazing. Tell us more about your relationship with this movie. For sure.

So I always think of you talking about your great movie binge and I similarly had a great movie binge in when I first moved to Madison for school in 2000, I discovered a local gem called Four Star Video Heaven, which still exists. We still have. Is that where our friend Alex works? Yeah. That's where Alex works.

Yeah. Yes. I was going to say, I was just, I've spent two months in Madison this year. I wish that if we'd met sooner, I love Madison. Yes. It's a good town. And yeah, we still have this brick and mortar video rental place, which is feels, shout out four star.

Miraculous. Yeah. It was bigger. and it was like much more of a central place when I first moved here in 2000. And I was like a little baby queer. I was coming from Oklahoma was where I'd been in high school.

And all we had there was a blockbuster where I would like, you know, rent movies in like threes so that the one that was maybe a little gay would be in the middle and hidden from the clerk, you know? Real classic. But I went to Foursar and like most of the people who worked there were queer. And they had this incredible selection, you know, curated by the people who worked there.

And I would just go in and ask for like, what do I need to see in the queer canon? Because I was just so hungry for representation. And, yeah. So Desert Hearts eventually came along. And I don't remember where in this, you know, there was some time when I was in college and undergrad. So between 2000 and 2004 was the first time I saw it.

And it's funny. Like, I feel like this movie has definitely grown on me and revisiting it for this to join you all today. It was really fun to just, I think I appreciate it a lot more on a lot more levels, having seen it more recently. I remember liking it but thinking it was a little cheesy and like maybe it just it didn't quite hit me in the same way at the time because I was just watching so much other queer media that had come out since all at once, you know, so that comparison. But I did think it was, you know, it was really cool to see something from the 80s that has what this movie has in it. And it stuck with me. And I have sort of since become for a lot of my friends who have come out later on or were interested in queer cinema, like I'm a really big nerd about let me recommend movies for you.

So this is one that I often recommend because I feel like it still flies under the radar for a lot of people. Younger folks, it just doesn't come up as often. So I frequently find myself recommending it and then getting a chance to revisit it. And yeah, I was really fun to watch and just see all these other levels that I had missed the first time around. There's a lot here. And I really adore it. And I'm really grateful that it exists. Yeah.

There's so much to talk about. It really is. And I love how corny it gets. So it's kind of, you're like, oh, man, it's just so, it's so beautiful. I love, I love a little bit of corn. Yeah. It's exactly what it needs to be, is how I feel about it at this point. Totally.

Jamie, what's your relationship with it? Fairly recent. This has been on my two watch list forever, but I just hadn't yet watch it. I really wish I had sat myself down or been said. down to see it sooner. But I think that, again, like, the catalyst for watching this movie was, and I know it's part of why, so for listeners, if you're a member of our Patreon, AKA Matrion, this was originally the poll winner for our divorce buery theme, where I just like, I've been so interested

in divorce cinema and like Desert Hearts is S tier because the divorce is very incidental. But also it's in Reno, so it's like divorce is also the setting. And it's just, I got very interested in divorce cinema after we covered the women with fellow Madison Luminary. Yeah. So after covering that in which, in the last act of that movie, there is a Reno divorce ranch heavily featured. And it sort of feels like a queer paradise as presented in the women. And I wanted to learn more about them and see more movies that take place in Reno. and Desert Hearts is far and away the one that is recommended.

So I was in my divorce cinema bag when I watched this. And I just, like, I watched it early this year and just completely fell in love with it. I love what a sweeping love story it is. I love that it's like shot in Reno. The historical detail is so cool. I love the performances. I love the music. It's just beautiful.

I wish I had seen it years and years ago. but I'm very grateful I saw it now. And for this viewing, also getting the chance to learn a little bit more about the work that it's based on and the original author Jane Rule. So lots to talk about. I'm so excited. Caitlin, what's your history? Well, as the terminally straight person on the Zoom call, I had never seen it until a few days ago. Nor was it really on my radar, which I think is.

pretty telling because a lot of my film knowledge comes from my not one but two degrees in film, including a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University. I know you hate talking about that. Yeah. I hate bringing it up. It's big of you to mention it for us today. Thank you so much. But you know, I had a classic like film school education which focuses on, you know, a certain type of film. And even though, as we will talk about, this film is so monumental in so many ways, so revolutionary in so many ways, it gets overlooked by your typical film history classes because that curriculum and those books are largely written by cis-hete white men. And unless you're taking specifically like a queer cinema class, movies like this probably aren't going to be included in the curriculum. So I just wasn't super aware of it, but I've seen it three times now to prep for this. One of them being with the director's audio commentary, which is included on the criterion channel.

Yeah. So I've learned a lot and I'm so excited to talk about it. And with that, should we take a quick break and then come back for the recap? Let's do it. Sounds like a plan. Happy Pride Month, Toronto. Pride is an opportunity for you to create your own space, to celebrate your existence. IHeart Radio is proud to be an official sponsor of Pride Toronto Festival, and we won't stop.

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Listen to Wey and House on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So here's the recap for Desert Hearts. It's 1959. We meet Vivian Bell, played by Helen Shaver. She's this like straight-laced English-lit professor at Columbia University. She has 500,000 three-piece suits that she wears everywhere, and she's got a million bobby pins in her hair. She's as buttoned up as buttoned up can be. Oh, me truly.

She is the Wikipedia entry photograph for buttoned up. Yes. And she arrives by train in Reno, Nevada, and is greeted by Francis, played by Audra Lindley, who takes vision. Vivian to a divorce ranch, basically a place where women who are aiming to get divorced would live to establish residency in Reno because, as we talked about in the women episode, the laws around divorce there were much more lax than basically everywhere else in the U.S. It was a whole thing. I've got more history.

It's so interesting because it's basically all gone now. And like what I didn't know until I like took a weekend and just blacked out and learned everything I could about Reno is that without Reno we don't have Vegas, which makes more sense when you're like, oh, Vegas is famous for quickie marriages. And that is partially because Reno was where you could get divorced very quickly and then you would go to Vegas and get married. But for a long time, basically the Reno is the way it is or was because once as we've been talking about, about on the matrion once no-fault divorce became more widely accessible from state to state between 1969 and 2010 never forget no fault divorce didn't exist in new york until 2010 which we get into in i in our mrs delfire yeah mrs d'allair and cramer versus cramer so yeah a lot a lot of really weird straight divorces going on on the matriot this this month

But basically, Nevada's economy was really bad. It was not going well. And so the two things that it developed lax laws around in order to beef up its economy was divorce and gambling. And so Reno really was like the first example of a place that was, as we've talked about in the women and many episodes now, drawing in mostly middle to upper class white women to establish residency, get those quickie divorces and get out. There's also a lot of really interesting history. on, I think that most of the media we see is centered on upper class white women getting divorces in Reno and Desert Hearts definitely included in that. But there was a diverse array of people getting these divorces. There was a great article I read. I had to like find it in an archive from an old issue of Ebony about black women getting divorces in Reno at this time and how there was a separate infrastructure because there were still segregated. laws in place in Nevada at this time, but that everyone was getting divorced. We usually only see privileged white women getting divorced in Reno, but everyone was getting divorced, and everyone looked so hot doing it. And Vegas basically develops in response to how successful Reno was

and sort of endured more. But like basically all of the infrastructure that exists in the state of Nevada has to do with this like divorce industry that popped up in Reno. It's so interesting. It doesn't exist in Reno anymore, but like that's why we have Vegas for better or for worse. Yeah. I encourage people to read about this a little bit too. I was digging in and like the, the economy that sprung up in Reno around the divorce world was really fascinating. Like these ranches, but just like you had male driver surfaces and like, you know, guys that would stay out with the women late at night. They had like, special. social clubs and like classes and activities that you could take to cater to these women who were coming in. So it was a whole scene from what I can tell, which is delightful. It was like a sexy little camp. Yeah, I liked that because I hadn't done a lot of research the first time I saw this, but like I love how this movie sprinkles in those like history moments where it's the another woman staying at the ranch, Lucille. Oh yeah. Heavily alludes to having a rent a boyfriend while she's there. And it's just, oh,

I love it. So good. I have to really quickly interject because I'm a musician and I have to shout out the soundtrack in this movie is incredible. And the opening track that you hear is such a good launching point because it is a song by Patsy Klein called If You've Got Levin on your mind. And that's what she rolls into town on the train on. And it's just from that moment the music is just so good. It's such a, you know, it's that additional character in the movie. It's so good. Yeah, the soundtrack is immaculate. God. Is crazy? playing when she's watching the horse. God, the horse scene is a lot. It's so, like, it is corny, but it's so beautiful. So good. Also, Donna Deach petitioned, I think it was the distribution company, which was the Sam Goldwyn, whatever, blah, blah, blah, to obtain the rights to be able to release the soundtrack as like a separate album to sell alongside the movie and the distributor was like pass because they're a asshole losers a bunch of losers what a missed opportunity truly i did find multiple people on the streaming service that i use who have created that playlist exactly

oh great that's amazing okay so point is Vivian Bell is in town. She's in Reno and she meets Francis. And on the way to the ranch that's like out in the middle of the desert, Francis and Vivian encounter Kay Rivers, played by Patricia Sharbonneau, who like passes them on the road speeding down the highway and her like hot, hot, sexy convertible. Then she throws the car in reverse and is driving alongside them for a moment in.

In reverse. One of my favorite character introductions. It's so good. Maybe ever. It's so good. It's so scary to watch. It's completely bonkers and unhinged and it's such a perfect like, this is that character. Oh, just in case you weren't sure, she's a wild child.

She's a free spirit. Yep. Also, the most perfect hair I've ever seen. Oh, my God. Even when it's blowing in the wind, it's incredible. How does it? Very feathered, very perfect. It's gorgeous.

I wasn't super familiar with either of these actors. They were relatively unknown at the time. But also, and then still, I feel like it, are not like. Well, my impression, and I, you might have dug into this more, but some reading around it is it was a huge risk for these actresses to take this role at all. And I think there was some amount of blowback. Like when you do this sort of role, it was actually, I think, genuinely hard for them to get mainstream roles afterwards.

Yeah. Yeah. Very true. I saw the same. One thing that I did, I forgot, friend of the show, Annie Ruwerda, aka Deps of Wikipedia, alerted me to this because she knows I love Desert Hearts. Helen Shaver, a few years after Desert Hearts, plays Littlefoot's mother in the land before time. Oh, right.

So it's all connected. And, like, it actually does. And also, she's in the craft. I don't remember who she is. in the craft. Yeah, I was trying to remember she... I remember the bit and I can't remember who she was. She also, she did guest, I think, in two episodes of the L-word in the original series, which I thought was a really nice, like homage moment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's lovely. I don't know. Yeah, Patricia Charbonneau, I don't think I really saw her in very much. I'm seeing that she was in all, she's all that,

but every time I watch that movie, it immediately leaves my mind. So I maybe don't, I just don't know. But yeah, I mean, I think that I was hearing Donna Deach say in an interview that the most famous person in the movie at the time, and maybe still was Audrey Lindley, who was known for being on Three's company at the time. She was like a famous TV actor. I recognized her from our episode on Troop Beverly Hills because she's in Troop Beverly Hills. And fun fact about her because Donna Deach was, you know, basically like raising money to finish this movie in real time when she started it. She didn't yet have an editor. Like it was very much like, you know, laying bricks right behind, like right in front of you as you're going. And Audrey Lindley, who had the successful

TV career, became an investor in the movie when she realized that they were running low on money. So she really was like a big part of why it happened. So it just seems like there was so much love on this, I don't know, I just love seeing a great movie and then also learning that everyone liked each other. And according to Donne Deach, there was a lot of people fucking and having a great time. And you do love to hear it. I do love to. It's nice. And she like sold her house to finance this movie. It was a real passion project. Yeah. Yes. Incredible. Glad she did it. We're all better for it. Yeah. I hope she eventually got another house. I guess.

It seems like she's I mean, me can talk about, gosh, I know we're like two seconds into the movie. But she, like a lot of women director

we've talked about recently, Donadish, I mean, make no mistake. She is very much working. She has always been working. She was a documentary director before this. And she does direct one other narrative

movie after this called Criminal Passion, which I honestly don't know very much about. But I do notice this pattern of if women directors continue working after their big movie, it is generally in television and like not. Again, just like I find it quite interesting and suspicious that this O-Tour route just seems unavailable to women and queer people. So baffling. I couldn't, I don't understand it. I'll get it off. It's just interesting. Meanwhile, Christopher Nolan's first movie makes like $11 and then they're like here make everything time after time and I'm and I'm not even knocking him for that. I'm like everyone should get everyone's first movie should be allowed to

make $11 exactly and then keep it pushing but you know the anyways worth mentioning because it seems like she wants to or at one point like 10 years ago she was like I'm working on a sequel that takes place in New York in the 60s and I was like, I want that so bad. I want it. Yeah. Yes. All right. Back to the story. Minute two of the movie. We're doing great. So we've met Vivian. She is buttoned up. We've met Kay. She is loosened up. And so the contrast between them is palpable. As is the sexual tension. Okay. So Vivian arrives at the ranch. She gets settled in. She has a drink with Francis who tells Vivian about her past, how she used to have a love of

her own with this man named Glenn, who is Kay's father and who was married at the time of Francis's affair with him. So, like, she wasn't really Kay's stepmother or anything, but she still feels a lot of affection for Kay. Yeah. Francis also has a son by Glenn, a young man named. Walter, who we've met. He works at the ranch. He seems like a pleasant young man. He's a sweetie. I love when he's like, want a chicklet. I'm like, I like this guy. Yep. Yep. And also, I, just because I went

weirdly deep on this, played by this actor named Alex MacArthur, who just feels profoundly 80s based on these two facts about him. A, he plays the boyfriend in the Madonna Papa Don't Preach video. she's keeping her baby and it's this guy's baby. And also he was a bartender at Studio 54. And so I've just like, oh, this all tracks so hard. Because I had to look him up because I felt like he looked really familiar. It's probably the Papa Don't Preach video, which definitely holds a place in my childhood obsession with Madonna. He kind of looks like Jake Gillenhall.

Like he does, yeah. Like a little bit. But I was like, I didn't really recognize a ton that he'd been in. But also, he is very attractive to me. way. I was just like, he's a very handsome young man. And so I'm like, yeah, Studio 54 and a Madonna view, I feel correct. Yeah. It's just a very 80s resume. It's beautiful. That's amazing. Yeah. Okay. So meanwhile, we get more acquainted with Kay. She works at a nearby casino. She lives at the ranch, although she is living there permanently. Like, she's not in a middle of a divorce like

everyone else. This is just her permanent residence. And she's also seeing a guy named Daryl, who will learn more about eventually. But she doesn't seem very thrilled to be with him. Boo, Daryl. Yeah. One day, Vivian offers to bring Kay's mail to her cottage. And Kay invites Vivian inside to like hang out and look at her pottery. This is such a move. This is such a move. in those shorts do you want to come in oh my gosh the jorts the jorts the jorts the jorts game is off the charts yeah and there's a naked woman in k's bed no big deal no big deal this is Gwen played by Gwen wells who would later go on to become best friends with director donna deach and vivian sees her and is very taken aback She's clutching her pearls and she leaves.

But now she knows, and we know the audience, that Kay is queer and pretty open about it. I do love also that as Vivian is approaching the cottage, you see this like strapping young man ranch hand who's like loading hay and he's clearly noticing her. And she is not looking at him at all. And then as she leaves, he makes this great comment to Kay about, I don't know how you get all this action without any equipment. And it's just like moving on away for this guy. And I love that. I like that too. Yeah.

It was great. Yeah. Okay. So sometime later, Kay offers Vivian a ride into town for an appointment that Vivian has with a divorce attorney. Gwen is also in the car. And the whole situation is quite awkward for Vivian. And then when Kay drops Vivian off at the lawyer's office, Kay offers to wait for her, but Vivian is being kind of standoffish and cold and she says,

no thanks, I'll find my own way back. And then at Vivian's meeting with the lawyer, he asks, what are the grounds for her divorce? And she has trouble articulating it exactly, but basically she says that she longs for something she doesn't yet have. Ooh, what could it be? What could it be? Then we learned that the Darrell guy that Kay has been seeing is her boss at the casino who professes his love for her. But again, she doesn't want any future with him.

He seems to know that she has relationships with women. And he says something like, I'll turn. He's like giving her a hard pitch on a like a lavender marriage. And she's like, no. She says, pass. I'm waiting for someone who counts. And someone who counts is not this guy, not this. Tim Hydecker looking ass dude.

I was like, yeah, flesh-colored hair looking ass. That night, Vivian runs into Kay in the kitchen, and they're trying to be covert to avoid Francis coming in and, like, talking their ear off. But then Kay spills something, and they're giggling and vibing, and it's really cute. I'm trying to figure out what the heck Kay is even doing in the middle of the night with, like, a whole thing of, like, cream and butter. Yeah, I'm like, I don't know what's going on there. I feel like they must have dropped a scene or something.

I was like, what is she up to exactly? She's feeling snacky. Making a whole meal. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what they snacked on in late 50s, but that seemed like a lot for the middle of the night. A lot of dairy for that late in the day. Yeah, truly.

But anyway, Francis hears them and asks Kay to bring her a drink. And Francis is kind of in the middle of a meltdown. She has always latched on to Kay because Kay and her son Walter are all that Francis has of her past lover, Glenn. Clearly, she's, you know, lonely and grieving Glenn because he passed away. And Kay says, well, one of these days, I'm going to find someone who counts. And sorry, Francis, but you can't stand in my way. Because it seems like Francis knows that Kay has sex with women, and she doesn't approve of it,

but she seems to like tolerate it. And then Kay returns to the kitchen to see if Vivian is still there and seems disappointed that she isn't. The next morning, Kay asks Vivian to go horseback riding with her. And they do and they talk about why Vivian's marriage fell apart, their plans and ambitions. And that seems like they're really hitting it off. I said, I want to note that they're not actually riding the horses. They are awkwardly walking them through the brush. So according to the audio commentary, Donna Deitch says that she's like, I love looking at horses' faces as much as human faces.

So to have them both at the same, like at eye level, because if they're up on the horse, you can't see the horse's faces. Unless it's like a really long, a really wide shot. That is the gayest horse girl thing I've ever heard. I love so much. I respect her commitment to the horse girl again. I actually, controversially, do not want to be that close to all horse's face.

That's frightening to me. I know I've talked about this on the show a million times, but when I went to horse camp when I was a kid, they made us watch the horse get a dental procedure, and I've never watched. Wait. No. I forgot about this.

I don't know why at Jesus horse camp in New Hampshire, they make you watch the horse get a dental procedure. Maybe it wasn't everyone, but it was definitely my year. We watched the horses get, and it's so scary. It's like you have to, the teeth are too big. They have to like jackhammer the teeth. It's scary. Wow.

Yeah, that would make an impression. Once you know what's in the horse's head, it's just hard. It's just hard to get close like that. No going back. So we see Vivian and Kay hitting it off near the horse's. faces. Then we cut to Kay telling her friend and colleague Silver that she thinks that she has found someone who counts. Love Silver. Silver is the best. Yeah. Big fan. She's the best. Silver rocks. Take baths with your friends. Also, yes, take baths with your friends. Truly. Have a bathtub big

enough to fit two people in it in the first place. What a dream. Ideally. And then have your your your man fiance serve you drinks. Oh, he was so good too. I liked them both a lot. I was so happy for Silver because even though we don't get a ton of background and in the book, Silver and Kay who is Anne in the book, like casually hook up from time to time. They do kiss on the mouth in the movie. That was the vibe I got.

Yeah. Yeah. Like they're, they've hooked up before, but they're ultimately best friends. And I just, I loved, like, you just get the feeling that Silver has been through a lot of shit and that she found someone who can like actually, yeah, meet her where she's at. It's so beautiful. I love her. It's really beautiful, yes. Yeah, I know.

So, yeah, Kay tells Silver that she has found someone who counts, aka Vivian. But Silver warns Kay that Vivian is only here temporarily, just long enough to see her divorce through. and then she's off to return to New York. Then Kay and Vivian go clothes shopping together. They're hanging out at a casino. They're just, again, continuing to vibe and have a nice time. And everyone who senses what's going on between them keeps saying that Vivian and Kay have nothing in common.

It's never going to work out. This woman, Lucille, tells Vivian to stay away from Kay because she's queer, but like using her. the term pejoratively. But Vivian is basically like, I don't care, fuck off Lucille, but in a very like polite and academic way, which is a very like, kind of cutting New Englandy, a little passive, aggressive. Condescending. I do, I do love how, I don't know, I would just not want to be on her bad side. Like Vivian is, can go ice school. I'm, you know, I do love how, I don't know, I would just not want to be on, on her bad side. like vivian can go ice cold in the space of an instant if you disrespect her girl and i think that

that is beautiful and vice versa um oh my god when she shuts francis down when francis tries to talk shit about k behind her back and vivian's like i have to go good night i'm tired i've seen this i've seen this movie before yeah i was like oh i love her yeah um okay so then we see some more moments of longing between Kay and Vivian, where Kay is being pretty overt about it, as is her style, and Vivian is being very, like, suppressivey about it as his her style. Then at breakfast one morning, everyone is talking about Silver and her fiancé Joe's engagement party that's happening that night, and Vivian says that she's not going because she has lectures to prepare for her upcoming classes. And then Kay like stands up and makes a scene and she's like I want you to come to the party and then she storms out

which a friend of mine compared to how her eight year old acts by the way. Kay is just very willful. It's like yes I know she's standing up for what she wants but like sometimes it's very like it's a little much. It feels very like in your early mid-20s that Kay is and it does speak to like the more like cornyer aspect of the movie that sometimes she. does just make a speech before leaving the room. Where she's like, and no one's getting, get in the way of my life. And then like leaves.

It happens like three or four times. I'm like, yeah, exactly. Did I do that when I was 25? Probably. Uh-huh. Yeah. Same. Yeah.

Same. Okay. So it seems like Francis doesn't want Vivian going to the party if it means that she'll be hanging out with Kay there. And Vivian asks Walter, why Francis, resents Kay for being friendly to Vivian. And it seems like Francis doesn't want Kay to leave her. Again, she's lonely.

She's desperately missing her former lover, Glenn. At some point, she tells Kay that Glenn reached in and put a string of lights around her heart. No. Then we cut to this engagement party. Vivian decides to go after all, and she and Kay are making eyes. at each other. And then after the party, they drive out into the desert and they're strolling around as the sun comes up.

Kay tells her that she likes women. And Vivian is like, oh, no, do you like me? I hope I haven't misled you in any way because I care about you, but I'm not. And then she runs away. She sprits away. She gets interrupted by a crash of thunder and a. downpour of rain. She runs to the car and Kay follows her and through a rolled down window, they kiss. But then Vivian pulls away because she's uncomfortable. Oh, but where did she learn

to kiss like that? It's such a where indeed. What a scene. What a scene. Love it. Then they return to the ranch to discover that Francis has decided to kick Vivian out because Vivian and Kay left the party together and they stayed out all night and people started talking about what they must be up to. And Francis can't have that. And Vivian is like, okay, fine, bye bitch. I'll leave. I'm really annoyed that she doesn't get her refund check though, because Kay throws it on the ground in defiance. And then she never picks it up and I'm like, she needs that. She's got a divorce. Yeah, right. And then she is once again being pretty cold and standoffish to Kay as Vivian leaves. And now Kay is furious. Francis for trying to interfere in her life. She tells her she's moving off the ranch.

Meanwhile, Vivian has checked into a nearby casino slash hotel. She's not doing great. Kay is not doing great. And then sometime later, Kay pays Vivian a visit in her hotel room. Vivian reluctantly lets her in. And Kay is like, so we kissed. Let's talk about it. Vivian is like, our kiss was me having a momentary lapse in judgment and it's not going to happen again. I'm a respected scholar. She iconically, I was like, wow, this isn't me. When I retire, I will simply write a short story for my revenge. I was like, oh. I lost my mind. I had forgotten on that bit and I was rewatching this with friends. And yeah, we were all just like, oh my God, the most waspy human being like revenge you can imagine. I'm going to wait 30 years, simmering with resentment.

and then I'm going to write a nasty short story about how I'll mean you all were to me. That's my revenge. And you'll all definitely be alive and reading literary journals to watch me get you. Incredible. Such a good character line. I loved it. Oh, it's perfect. It's amazing.

And so Vivian is protesting and goes to make herself a drink. and then when she comes back into the room, Kay is in her bed naked. It is the fastest undressing. The time it takes for Vivian to turn around, say her piece about the short story, and then turn back is like, Kay had to start undressing immediately when she turned around. She needed like Lightning McQueen's pit crew to get undress that quickly. She was motivated. I wish I had been paying more attention to what she was wearing when she came in

because like it's one thing if you have like were there buttons and buttons? I think there were, yeah. Everything she wore had buttons on it. It's all complicated late 50s stuff. There's no T-shirts here. So it would have taken some work to get. I'm stressed into bed. Set up all pretty with your boobs out.

That takes work. And very particularly just like a production note, I believe that Patricia Sharbonneau is using a body double for much of this scene, partially because that was in her contract and partially because she was pregnant during the production of this movie. She found out she was pregnant right as they began shooting. Wow. I just, I don't know why that is like always fun to be like, oh, a tastefully placed blanket.

The tits are out. Right. I mean, she wouldn't have been that far into her pregnancy, though, by that point. I don't think she even would have been showing that much, if any. But, you know, it could still just be a comfort thing or, yeah, if it was in her contract. But, yes, it is a very artfully placed blanket right below the decalitage. Yeah. Yes, indeed.

So she's naked. She got undressed super fast. I mean, as we've said, she's wearing her buttons loose. Pussy cat doll's style. She's loosening up her buttons, baby. Uh-huh. Ooh. Yeah.

So. Did not see that coming. Yeah. Yeah, good reference. Thank you so much. Anyway, so she's naked now. And Vivian is like, I want you to put your clothes on and leave. And Kay is like, no, you don't.

And Vivian is like, okay, you're right. But I don't even know what to do. I don't know how to have sex with a woman. And Kay is like, don't worry, I will be your guide. And they start kissing. It gets hotter and heavier. And they have sex for what seems like hours, because eventually

Kay is like we need to like leave this room go eat something The classic like queer sapphic sex K-hole that you go into when you put up with someone

it feels very accurate you just lose track of time and space for good be days This is the only and I did we'll talk about because there was like a difference of opinion

when this movie first came out about how the sex scene was staged but it did crack me up I think this is the only example I can think of of a sex scene fading to black and then fading up to kind of still a sexy. Yeah. Just kind of just like later in the day. Right. Yeah.

Can we just also talk real quick about how incredible this would have been to see, especially as like a lesbian or, you know, the queer person at the time? I can only imagine. I know there were like some lesbians who had issues with it felt like the dynamic of the characters was too heterosexual and some way. But I feel like this scene, I think it's beautiful. I think it's beautifully shot. I think there's this wonderful moment where Vivian basically flips her over and is on top, kind of like taking charge and like showing that she really wants this, which is really important. Yeah.

But just seeing a sex scene between two women filmed by a gay woman, not for the male gays, on screen at all, you know, like a positive light, I don't know what would have come before this at all in any sort of vaguely mainstream cinema. So it would have been just absolutely. nothing. This is why Jane Lynch, you know, not just for this scene, but I mean, this is why Jane Lynch must have watched it 50 times. Like, it's a huge deal. It was a huge deal. Totally. Yeah, Jane Lynch, um, concurs. Based on my research. Yeah. No, I mean, again, this is, this was a revolutionary film. It's considered the first feature film to present a positive and, like, desensationalized portrayal of a lesbian romance. It's the first lesbian-themed feature.

feature film written and directed by a woman because ones prior to that had been made by men. And I did like to hear, and again, I'm just like, this is why women should direct all movies. Even though, you know, it's 1985 intimacy coordinators have not yet been normalized. Weird. That has only happened in the last five to ten years, really. But that there was care taken in the sex scene. There's information about, and Caitlin, I don't know if she, like, talks about it during the commentary as well, but everyone who was not essential to being in the room was gone. It was just the director of photography, the boom operator, and the actors and Donna Deach, which is how that should be.

And I mean, it's so wild how far into movie history, like, including recent history, that, like, that care is not. taken and there's still really not a ton of industry standards around it. So I was also, I don't know, just again, it's like so nice to know that a wonderful movie was also ethically made. I think especially because we're coming off of the Kramer versus Kramer episode, which sounds like it nearly killed Merrill Street. Yeah. Dustin Hoffman was such a piece of shit. Really flexing his history's greatest monster muscles in that one. But yeah, I just, I really appreciated that that like production detail as well. Yeah, and I feel like I read something too that, I mean, again, for these actresses taking this role, it was kind of a big deal. And I think the Helen Shaver talked about, she's sort of trembling initially in that she's like, I was kind of real, because I was really nervous to do this scene, and it was a big deal. And it was a bit nerve-wracking. So, yeah, I'm also glad to hear at least the setup and the scene was pretty private and comfortable with the director. Because that's, yeah, you just always want that. And I think it really comes across. in the scene, like in the acting and in a scene, you always get a sense when it's almost always

can get that sense of like there was a healthy environment on set. Like people are feeling okay, like supported and safe and it really comes through and it makes a big difference. Sure does. It does. Yeah. Anyway, they've been having sex for hours and they eventually leave to go to a bar or restaurant or something where they have a little chat. They say that they love each other, but Vivian is freaking out this whole time. She's feeling exposed. She's worried about her future and her reputation. What if the university and her students find out that she's having an affair with a woman, one who's 10 years younger than her, no less. So her career is potentially in jeopardy. And this discussion turns into an argument. And they're about to storm away from each other.

But then they very quickly make up. And we cut to them. nakedly embracing in the hotel room again. And a beautiful shot. The lighting and the silhouette and the lights from the Reno Street, like that shot. And also the shot of them when they're making up, I really love that it's at a distance. They're getting into the car together and it's this lovely beautiful shot. And like we don't see the moment they have together when it happens. You just kind of see them out of a move.

And I think that's, I think that was really beautiful. Yeah. I also, I mean, I love their argument too, weirdly enough. Yeah, absolutely. They're like talking as adults. They're like freely expressing their concerns. And then at one point Vivian is like, does it always unravel this quickly? Like almost like providing commentary on the fight that they're having.

And then Kay says comes with the territory. It's such a good. I agree that. Like it is a really good argument, especially coming from like two queer women at like different stages of their lives too where it's. I don't know, Vivian is so thoughtfully characterized that it's like, I like that the movie doesn't bonk you over the head with period specific details, but like this is still a time where being out or being anything but straight was considered a mental illness and would

like absolutely ruin your life. It wasn't just cultural stigma. There was still like significant legal stigma. And you know, that Kay is able to sort of be out, sort of not, but the reason that that's true is because her options are so limited and that like it feels like you have to make a choice between pursuing your passion or not because of all the stigma. And I don't know, I just felt like that was all encapsulated in that argument without them having to state it because their relationship is so real. And then also just the like 25 year old talking to a 35 year old where there are certain moments where I was like, you know, you could feel Vivian kind of holding back of like, all right, All right, get it out of your system.

But I mean, I'm glad you brought that up, too, because I think something I've come across, like I've had to learn a lot of my own queer history coming up when I did. But just I think especially younger people watching this, I hope they dig into the context. Because I think it is important to understand what was happening at the time. Like, you know, same-sex attraction wasn't removed from the mental health classification until 1973. Like, you would absolutely be fired from your job. You would absolutely lose your career. You could be kicked out of housing.

You could be thrown into an institution, all these things that were happening up until fairly recently looming large over this entire scenario. Yeah. And I think this is a, I'll just agree, like the conversation, this argument is such a great without hitting you over the head and being really obvious about it. It's such a, this is what they were dealing with. This would be very realistic to that time, not just the age gap, but just the Vivian has a career. She has this whole life, whereas Kay's making pottery and having sex with hot women. On her, what she calls her hideout, you know, she's sort of this like swaggering Western figure in some ways and like a little freer, but like you said, with limited options. So, yeah, it's great.

I really appreciate that. There's also an interesting power dynamic between them because while Vivian is 10 years older and has more just like life experience and maturity under her belt. Career, all that stuff. Kay is far more experienced in just like having queer relationships and having sex with women versus this is Vivian's first time with anything like that, we are to assume. So Vivian is out of her element in that regard, which sort of offsets the power dynamic of Vivian being quite a bit older than Kay, I feel. Right. And it's like power as, or at least I think in this relationship, almost

as a neutral term because I don't think that either of them abuses the power that they have over each other, which is rare to see in like any kind of relationship. But I also like noticed that where they do at different points. I think that Kay like has quite a bit of power in this relationship. But even if it's not like explicitly discussed, I think even especially prior to the sex scene where Vivian is like so. sure of herself. She is like, I don't know how to, I don't know how to. And Kay, Kay, he's like, I do all good. Like, let's, let's, you know, I just, I think it's really lovely that they're able to just communicate, you know, and that no one is like lording the power they have

over the other, which is how a healthy relationship should work. Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting too to think about some of the criticisms that came out of, particularly the lesbian community, when this movie came out was like, oh, you know, Kay's this like dominating, you know, sort of masculine figure to Vivian's more like submissive, you know, whatever. And I'm like, I don't read it that way at all, but I think that was sort of a big conversation happening in the community at the time in the 80s. It was sort of getting away from the original, quote unquote, original, butch femme dynamics in queer women community and sort of trying to like, hey, actually we don't want to just replicate heterosexual patriarchal relationships, which is a good

and important conversation we continue to have. And I don't think this movie does that. And I think exactly to your point that the power dynamics, they're mixed, but it feels pretty even in the end that they're both bringing something to the table and ultimately have agency to make these decisions in a way that feels like relatively healthy. You know, one needs to get pushed a little bit. The other one needs to like have an understanding of what she's dealing with, like what the world is and try to figure out a middle space that works out for them. But I really like that I don't read either of them as any one thing, masculine or feminine or passive or dominant. There's sort of that vibe. But again, like, they let Vivian in the end, like, show that she wants this and, like,

is making this effort and it's just been hard. But like, yeah, I don't know. I think that's, I think that's great. And it's just interesting to think about that in the context of the time it was made in particular. And then how it plays now, given where we're at. as a as a society as a culture i do have some thoughts about the lead up to the sex scene yes there's a classic there's a bit of pushiness and boundary disrespecting dubious consent yes that i think we're supposed to be coasting on vibes that if this were yeah if this were a a straight sex scene we would definitely be like well do you really just get naked while the other person is talking about why this cannot happen.

And, you know, she does say, like, I want you to put your clothes on and leave. And she says, no, you don't. No, you don't. No, you don't. Twice. Yeah, in any other context. Yeah. Yeah, fair to call that out 100%.

Yeah. And then there's a part of me that's like, well, but she doesn't. But then you're like, now I'm being toxic. Now I'm being toxic. We'll talk more about it. Okay. Yes. Yeah.

That just to. Yeah. We all recognize the 1985 elements of this. Yes. Uh-huh. Okay, the movie's almost over. So they've had sex and had a fight and then made up and then they have sex again. Then it's Silver and Joe's wedding. Kay and Vivian are both there, as is Francis, who tells Kay that she will never accept her liking women.

She can't understand two women being together. And then Kay repeats one of Francis's lines back to her, that Vivian reached in and put a string of lights around her. her heart. And so now Francis maybe seems like she's starting to understand and they seem like they kind of reconcile a bit. Then Vivian's divorce goes through. So she's about to head back to New York. Kay wants for them to be together, to stay together, to live together or near each other. But Vivian is like, yeah, I can't do that. I'll come back and visit for Christmas. But that's not good enough for Kay. and she's hurt and she leaves. But then Kay sees Vivian off at the train station.

Vivian, I know, Vivian invites Kay to come with her to New York, saying that she deserves to live with someone who knows how wonderful she is, who sees her for who she is. And I know, I'm sobbing. She just wants another 40 minutes with her, and we're like, Happy ending. Right, because Kay is hesitant.

She's like, I've got loose ends. I have to tie up in Reno. And, you know, maybe she's feeling trepidacious. And then the train starts moving with Vivian on it. And Kay isn't on it. But then Kay gets on the train,

but just to ride to the next station. Or maybe to go all the way back to New York. Kay is so impulsive. She's staying on that. She'll stay. train. Absolutely, yes. It reminded me of the end of, and sorry, this is a heterosexual relationship, but the end of... How dare you?

I know. So I apologize. But the end of before sunset, when Ethan Hawks' character goes up to Celine's apartment and... The Nina Simone record. Yeah. And then she's like, you're going to miss your flight. And he's like, I know. No.

Anyway, that's the movie. So let's take a quick break and we will come back to discuss. You end up with weekend gold tickets to Lassau Montreal. Thomas Rhett. Mumford and Sons. Well, here's my pride and here's my shame. John Party, Old Dominion, Carly Pierce, and more. And the prize gets even sweeter.

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What's jumping out to you? Oh, my goodness. That's such a big question. I feel like we've already started talking about a lot of it. So true. I guess what I'll start by saying is, and we would love to hear your thoughts. And I know you've talked about this on the show before, but just the fact that we had a relatively happy ending, no one dies. No one takes their own life.

No one gets up put an institution. Like there is this moment of we think, you know, you can be like, these two crazy kids are going to make it work because you're left with that possibility. They're getting on the train together. Maybe it's just another 40 minutes. Maybe they work it out. But again, I cannot overstate how revolutionary that was for 1985. And honestly, we still deal with the barrier gays trope so much. And I can't imagine because I was four years old when this movie came out, like the impact it would have had on a person, a gay person going to see it after a lifetime of crumbs for representation. and when you did have it, you knew that that person was going to suffer in some way thanks to the Hays Code. And, you know, you had this sort of long tail of the Hays Code, which only, I think, stopped in, finally officially ended in, like, 69.

Yeah, 68, 69. So it's still not that long after that, not a long after Stonewall, and plenty of movies were still doing exactly that. So it's just incredible to have this movie, period, and then to have that ending was such a gift. And I still feel like it holds up. You know, again, I kind of like that it's a little ambiguous, but still generally a pretty happy ending. Like it feels earned, you know? One of the first things that Donna Deach says in the audio commentary is, I wanted to make a film about a love relationship between two women that didn't end in a bisexual triangle or a suicide.

I wanted to see something much more authentic than that. So she set out to do that and she accomplished. it. She did. Well, but let's, okay, this actually, I, all love and respect to Dona Deach, but we have to talk about our good friend Jane Rule. Yes. So I did not, I was not aware of her as a cultural figure before doing research for this episode, but she wrote the book that this movie is based on Desert of the Heart. And I wanted to go through it a little bit. It was published in 1964. Jane is, I think she's a, American, American, but she basically moved to Canada to escape homophobic prosecution, or persecution, sorry,

not prosecution, I don't think. Hope not. In the U.S., but she's just, she's a fascinating figure who ends up becoming great friends with Dona Deach, like this movie had her full blessing and she really loved it. She lived until 2007. But just to get into, because something I was wondering, not knowing a lot about the backstory of Desert Hearts, was why choose a period setting for this? Because that's something we've talked about with queer film a lot.

Specifically, movies centering on lesbian relationships is they're very often tragic pieces set in the past. Even ones that we've covered and loved, see Portrait of a Lady on Fire. I was going to say, immediately comes to mind. Carol, see, like, the list goes on and on. They're a varying quality.

But, like, you know, you can take Portrait of a Lady on Fire from a cold dead hand. hands. However, the trope is present. So I was curious because this movie does not have an unhappy ending, what was the function of setting it? And it's because it's when the novel was set and written. So Jane Ruhl was born in the 30s and had family in Reno. So she was sort of witnessed this up close. Wrote Desert of the Heart. It finished it in 1961. It was not published for three years after that because no publisher wanted to publish a book that centered on a lesbian relationship, much less one that ended ambiguous to good. There was a lovely short talk I found

about her on YouTube.com that was produced in the 90s. And she, Jane is a hoot. She is really funny. And also, it makes total sense that her and Donna Diet get along. I feel like they have a very similar sense of humor where Jane Rule when talking about the book was saying that like she she was so unsure of whether she wanted the book to be adapted into a movie. First, because it had sort of turned her into a cultural symbol in all of North America as, I mean, she has this quote where she was like, for years I was treated as if I were the only lesbian in Canada. And I just had to, which was obviously not true, but the way the media spoke about me, you'd never know there was a second lesbian in Canada. And so she, I mean, she was sort of tokenized in this way that she was upset about, understandably, and did not care for.

And so when Don Adich approached her, she was, I think her quote was something like, you know, I did not want the Hollywood version of this movie, which is always one person in the couple commits suicide and the other gets married to a man. And so she and Donadiech had a link up. They talked about it. Donadice apparently showed Jane Rule everything she'd ever made, which seems excessive. But it seemed like the meeting went well, obviously. And Jane Rule gave her blessing and said that there were, she said, again, I was like, gosh, I don't know how I, if I would be able to handle hearing this. But she told Donne Deach, I don't think you are capable of adapting my. story, but you can adapt a version of it, which first of all, I was like, whoa, but also,

that does seem to be what happened because Desert of the Heart, while I have not read it, the bones are similar. I think that the things that are sort of softened or changed for the movie mainly have to do with the specifics around in the book, it's Evelyn and Anne, but around Evelyn, who is still a professor, her thoughts around her divorce. There's more, more interiority digging into her feeling responsible for the end of her marriage, which had to do with both her not being attracted to her husband and also the fact that her husband was tremendously depressed unrelated to the marriage and blaming it on her. So that was, I think, more prominent in the story. I don't mind. I actually think it's a

positive adaptation that that is not really harped upon in Desert Hearts and that men really have not very much to do with what's going on and straight people have very little to do with what's going on. I know. I love that. Also, I learned from the audio commentary that sometime after publishing her book, Jane Rule was approached by a studio to option the book and adapt it into a film, but Jane Rule refused because she feared that it would be altered in a way that would be unacceptable to her. Well, yeah, the one person kills themselves, one person gets married to a man. Right, right. Yeah.

So then she sold the option to Donna Deach, and then Donna went to a studio for financing. But after a few meetings at this studio, she realized that they would not let her make the movie the way that she wanted to make it and honor the book. So she had to finance the movie independently. So as we mentioned already, she did things like sell her house. She sold some shares to individual investors, many of whom were lesbians who I imagine were very eager to see positive lesbian representation on screen. Also, the largest single investor was a gay man. I don't know who specifically, but...

Shout out that guy. I was like, shout out to that. Shout out to him. She also got a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts. But basically she just had to cobble together a bunch of like different sources of money eventually raised $1.5 million for the budget. Which is so prevalent. I mean, I almost think about like early John Waters movies of just like how much iconic queer

cinema like could not have been made in the conventional studio system and required a lot of creativity and like sacrifice on behalf of the people making it in order for us to you know and of course once the studios are like oh wait people will pay for this sure sorry you know um but it's just always late to the party always always always and just i'm i'm so glad for i mean truly everyone but like particularly for for jane rule that like donna didge really committed to getting the story told the way that it needed to be told yeah absolutely and not to diminish the of hustle it took to make it, but I believe it, it made back more than its, its budget. Like it, you know, it doesn't, it wasn't gangbusters, but it did make more.

Mm-hmm. It made a profit. Two point five million dollar box office receipts on a $1.5 million budget. Not too bad. Not too shabby. One of the last things that Dona Deach says in the audio commentary is, and this kind of also relates, we can talk about like the critical reception of this movie, but the film was playing at maybe one theater in New York City, potentially more, but it seems like it was maybe just this

one for a time. I think when it was like first released in theaters in 1986 after its like festival run. And there was a critic named Vincent Camby. Yeah, that's who. Famous New York Times critic, right? Yes. Yeah. Who was known to if he gave like a scathing review of something, especially an indie film, it would probably not. survive. It would, other screenings of it in other markets and cities and stuff like that would probably be canceled. Too much power for one guy. Exactly. Exactly. But like films died in the water from his reviews apparently quite often. And he gave this movie a scathing review. So Dona Deach was like, we can salvage this. So she basically went to several screenings of her film over the course of a

weekend and basically was like, she told the audience, if you liked this movie, please. tell a bunch of your friends to come see it. And that worked. The movie came, I think, six tickets away from breaking the box office record at that cinema for the weekend. And the movie came to be known as a Can Be Buster. And it was one of the few independent films of that era to have survived his wrath, as Donne Deach puts it. You got to sort of shout out the queer community, too. I mean, kudos to her for like showing up and putting in the shoe leather to just promote it and get people to do that.

But also like queer folks will show up for the things that they love, especially when they get the sense that that thing loves them back. Yeah. And go hard for it. I think we have done that. We have a long history of doing that, even when it's maybe not the most high quality thing, but you can tell that the thing loves you back. We will go hard. And I think that's, I think that's beautiful. And I think that this is definitely a testament to we saw what this was.

And we were like, you know what? We're not going to let this one random reviewer guy tank it. Right. I agree. It's too important. Meanwhile, Vito Russo is over here talking about he wrote in his book, the celluloid closet, Homosexuality in the movies. We've cited the Vito Russo test on the show many times, of which he was the founder.

But he said, quote, Desert Hearts is a love story that recreates with perceptiveness and tenderness what it might have been like for two women of different generations and backgrounds to fall in love in the 50s. Deach's refusal to feature the straight world's reaction to lesbianism as her focus of the film made all the difference in the way the relationship between the women was perceived by audiences. And then he went on to say, Vincent can be complained that we are not given enough information about the quality of Vivian's broken marriage, asking if perhaps her lesbianism was a hysterical reaction to her divorce. Yay! Oh, God. That's kind of great for Donned Dege to be like, well, I have proof as to why he didn't like it.

He's homophobic. Like he's telling on himself. Yep. And then the final bit of this quote is Vita Rousse is saying, this is the point at which many heterosexual critics disqualify themselves from perceptively reviewing gay films. Absolutely. Yeah.

I think that is exactly right. And you were talking before about that conversation she has with, the Vivian has with the lawyer as being sort of the only kind of the most deep dive we get into what happened in that. And I love exactly what it says. And it's not saying that this was a terrible, it wasn't a historical reaction. It wasn't this huge thing where she had an abusive husband. It was just a marriage that wasn't working and she was not interested. It clearly wasn't interested in him. And it was, what she said, it drowned in still waters.

Say no more. You know, like that. And that's all it needed to be. That was, I mean, I think anybody who got it knew exactly what that meant and that that was the important part. And it absolutely, yeah, it's not for, none of this was for the straight man. And they hate that. Unfortunately, that's who all the critics were at the time. Right.

Which is like why so many queer classics are not well reviewed in their day. because I just don't understand who the movie is for or don't care. But I'm so glad. I mean, again, it's like I'm so glad that Donadiege was able to advocate for this movie. And I also think it's still like you were saying earlier, Caitlin, like undertaught and under discussed in like film education. Totally. It is like I'm frustrated that it took me so long to watch this movie. And that's partially on me, but also it's partially on the world.

Absolutely. Yeah. What else would we like to talk about? I just want to shout out Silver again, but specifically because I do, I think it's common you sort of get like the world and the movie is very insular in things like this where it's just like about the couple and they don't seem to have like a world outside of, they don't have friends, they don't have a community. So, you know, Silver is sort of, I think, holding down the role of like a community that Kay

clearly does have. She does have additional people that she's seeing and, and, and. friends and family. So I, I love Silver as a character. I love that she's sort of this ride or die friend who we don't get all the big details, but like you said, Jamie, like you get the sense that she's lived a life, you know. But I just, I really appreciate you. You're talking about like most of the women, or most of the characters in this movie are women talking to each other. There's, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, silver's partner who we like, who's, who's great. But otherwise, it's like there's very few men with speaking roles,

which is, you know, rare and a delight. But just the fact that, like, they let, they let, they let, have friends and not just be this sort of like singular character that with no context and no community basically and I I like that element of this movie as well that there are multiple other people that have a role to play in this that feels like it it just adds a lot of substance yeah I think it raises the stakes at the end too because it's like you do get the feeling that she would be like leaving something behind. And like there is a, and I appreciate, this reminded me, although it's like these movies have very little in common, but we recently covered appropriate behavior on the show.

And a little bit the dynamic between Shereen from Appropriate Behavior and her mother reminded me a little bit of the relationship between Kay and Francis because even though I think that like Francis in particular is, which makes sense given the time, caught up in like what is her role to Kay? What was her role to Glenn? Because marriage was such a marker, right, in the 50s and such a defining quality of what women, how women were supposed to perceive themselves. But like, for all intents and purposes, she's Kay's mother.

Kay's mother, like, walked out, and it seems like Francis essentially raised her. And Kay basically speaks to that without overtly calling her a mother at the end. is like I've known you longer than I've known anyone else in my life. Yeah. And I thought it was interesting. At the end of appropriate behavior, Shereen comes out as bisexual to her mother who kind of just pretend she doesn't hear it. And Shereen decides,

I want a relationship with my mom. I'm going to step away for a while and then try again. And it seems like Kay is sort of pursuing a similar journey with Francis. I like that it's kept ambiguous. but I just, that dynamic ended up being more nuanced than I expected, I guess, because Francis is absolutely monstrous in like, like intentionally humiliating Vivian and Kay to prove a point to specifically Kay, but also to herself in this very selfish way to attempt to shame Kay, which first of all will never work. And also, you know, like place a flag on her and be like, you are mine

because I cannot accept that Glenn is dead. And Kay is sort of like, that's my problem. You know, like I think, you know, Francis is centering her own grief above anyone else's. And I got the line that Kay has, there's some really good one-liners in this movie, too. She calls out Francis. She says, you want things without loving them.

That's greed. I realize that really sums up kind of the conflict that's going on there. And I thought it was, they leave it in this very kind of like nuanced, place that, again, just I think like this movie shows a lot of shades of gray. Yeah. Especially with Kay's family dynamic that I really appreciated. Yeah, it's sort of similar to how they leave it with, again, that ambiguity at the end.

Like, there's, there is a hope that something more positive will come down the line. But you're not given the neat, tidy, buttoned up ending, like that everything is solved and, you know, everything's happy. And, you know, that's fun sometimes. I love that. Sometimes it's very relieving, especially in a queer film. But I think, again, it feels like it's really true to the story and the time. And it's still, yeah, it's much more nuanced than I think I was expecting when I went into this film. So that's great.

Yeah. Speaking of great lines, my favorite one, I think, is it's after they've had sex for the first time, Vivian is freaking out not only about like, what if people find out? What if I lose my job? But she also like can't really, she's like struggling with. with Kay being so fearless and self-assured. And Kay says in response to that, I don't act this way to change the world. I act this way so the world won't change me.

Yeah. And I'm like, oh, bars. Spitting fire. Truly. So good. Yes. I just love how these are such two distinct characters. And how, I mean, kind of going back to the casting conversation.

where Dona Deach had a really difficult time finding actors who would willingly portray lesbian characters and many of them refused to audition for the film. And then also just like annoying that she couldn't get bigger names, I think also just for logistical reasons, which is that like a lot of actors think they're too famous to audition. True, yes. Yeah. And then Helen Shaver and Patricia Charbonneau were told by their friends and their agents that this film would ruin their careers.

But they were like, okay, these are substantial roles. It's like two women who are co-leads in a feature film. The characters are interesting and dynamic. And parts like this just like barely exist for women in films. And to this day still barely exist, unfortunately. So these two actors like jumped at the chance to play these characters who are just like so distinct. and relatable and compelling to watch. Yeah.

I mean, you can totally, it's very clear why these characters fall in love with each other. Like, it just, they compliment each other so well. Yeah. Will it go the distance? Well, we need to give Donna Deach a billion dollars to make Desert Hearts too. Yes. And then we can find out. That would be great.

I love it. prediction is they end up in like a lifelong situation ship thing i yeah i can see that k in new york i don't know if vivian's going to survive that that's exactly yeah they're going to have to open up their relationship yeah become polyamorous as soon as the late 60s hit yeah it's it's going to be a wild ride yeah yeah yeah vivian's going to need to get on board or uh or things are got to change but that's okay for now we have 40 minutes and they're just uh they're so well They're going to make it work. I want to really quickly return to the sex scene.

As we mentioned, there are various, and especially like the lead-up to the sex scene. We talked about how Vivian is visibly uncomfortable. She is saying, I want you to leave. I want you to put your clothes on. She reluctantly lets Kay in in the first place. Kay gets naked without making sure that was okay with Vivian. and, you know, all these things, Vivian says, I don't want to take off my robe, and then Kay takes it off anyway. We all have to dry the lawn somewhere.

Yeah, and then she does not respect that boundary. No, as the scene goes, Vivian gets more comfortable with it, as we also talked about. But again, she is clearly stating a lot of boundaries that Kay is blowing right past. Now, you could read this, I think, as a situation where one, queer woman who is much more comfortable and open with her sexuality is trying to encourage the other woman to break out of her shell, abandon her fears and insecurities. But also, you can do that and still respect someone's boundaries. Yes. So I feel like there's like traces of the like, quote unquote, predatory lesbian trope at the beginning of this scene.

But then as it goes, again, Vivian comes into her own. and has the best time. Yeah, I don't know. I'm curious what you think of. I'm like, I'm just, maybe it's just my personal love of the movie. I'm tempted to give it a pass because I don't, I don't think that this movie's agenda is to set an example necessarily.

I don't know. I mean, I don't mean to like give it too much of a pass, but like I don't know. I think that there is a tricky thing. thing in movies, especially the further you go back in history, where it's like the normalization of how consent is communicated and verbalized, I think has changed pretty considerably over time. I don't know. I'm inclined to give this movie a pass, even though I think on paper you're totally

right. Yeah. Especially because it was so revolutionary for the time. Yeah. I mean, I think watching it now you should feel a little icky about how it starts, right? That is not something we would want to follow the example of. Ideally, not back then and certainly not now. And I think I'm going to have to decide, but they're like, I have to give it a pass, even acknowledging that and wanting to take that seriously, given the context that it was made in. And also just the context of the rest of the movie, it's just, it's not,

it fits the characters in a way. And Vivian would have been that nervous. And it might have required a little bit of that kind of, I don't always like pushiness, but like, yeah, to get there. But like, is that great? No. Does it sort of work in the movie? Yes. And yeah, I think, again, like contextually for the time, our understanding of consent has changed.

And I would also just, like, I would assume that like some of those more toxic elements of how we consider consent or how it was displayed in movies or what we expected from certain characters in movies. certainly would have bled into this in a way that wasn't great. It's not entirely avoidable even by the best queer filmmakers. So all those things can be true at the same time, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that like if this movie were made today,

it is something that could be fixed with slight dialogue adjustments and the scene could play out the exact same way, which I think is like another reason where I'm like, it doesn't feel like it is the coercive, language is necessary to the scene or the dynamic. Like it can be judged removed. Sure. And we could take out the, what we call this like a surprise naked instead of a surprise kiss, a surprise on dressing. The jump scare, the jump scare nudity. Yeah. Another thing of note

to mention regarding this sex scene is that the distribution company of this movie, the Samuel Goldwyn Company insisted that the sex scene be cut down. But Donadiech refused. She said, hell no. I get final cut. And they relented, thankfully. Which is incredible.

Incredible. Yeah, right? Yeah. It reminded me of the documentary, this film is not yet rated, which examines how films with queer sex scenes are perceived as being more explicit and graphic than heterosex scenes, even if the blocking, the cinematography, the amount of nudity is basically identical to the heterosex scene. So movies with queer sex scenes will often get

like NC17 ratings. Now, that is not the case for Desert Hearts. It is rated R. But oftentimes films with queer sex scenes will be like rated in such a way that it makes them a lot less accessible to general audiences. So I just wanted to point that out and then also point out the fact that even though the sex scene is steamy, it's not graphic. No. I mean, you do get you get nipple on nipple, which is very fun. Yes.

Yeah. No, it is not particularly graphic. I think as queer sex scenes go in terms of what we get in movies, it is on the more graphic end, which is to say that usually they're just super toned down. I think for all the reasons that you stated when they're afraid to get NC17 ratings because that was a real consideration. But no, I think it's a beautifully blocked and shot sequence

and it's definitely more than we were getting at the time and still more than we get in a lot of movies in a way that still feels tasteful. I mean, I have a taste of tasteful because I'm like, let's, you know, bring it, do whatever. But like in a way that feels like it makes sense in the movie. And I think specifically of like blue is the warmest color, which I, that sex scene makes me so uncomfortable

for so many reasons. Yeah. As an example on the far side of that. But, like, I think this one is really well done. I'm really glad that she pushed back and had it included how she wanted it to be done. But, yeah, I mean, our existence as queer people is read as inherently hypersexual or sexualized often by sort of the straight world. And, like, you know, one of the most common retorts you get is like, why are you shoving your sex life down our lives? And I'm like, I'm just existing.

and I would like to exist as who I am, but it is read by some people, you know, in bad faith, I think, as being this inherently sexualized, sexualizing thing. And so, yeah, that's definitely playing out in the movie world for a long time and still to this day that that bias exists. So all the more impressive that this scene ended up being what it was. Totally, yeah, absolutely. The movie, believe it or not, does pass the Bechtel Towers.

immediately and basically for the rest of the movie. Consistently, yes, yep. Yes. Nothing really more to say about it passes with flying colors. Yeah, really every pair of women that talk to each other, it passes the backful to the test. Again, the thing that I would single out there, because there is some class diversity, there is no racial diversity present in the movie.

None. This is not necessarily completely absurd given the period of the time. and the amount of segregation that would have been present in the Reno divorce culture at this time. But that does not mean that there were no non-white people in this environment, as I think we're seeing. And just, I think it does play into the very general movie trope of a fixation on the white middle to upper class. Indeed. A thousand percent. As far as our nipple scale goes, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples,

examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I'm going to go a 4.5 on this one. I'm docking it just a little bit because of that. The scene that you can read is a little bit too coercive for our liking. And maybe I'm grading it on a curve, kind of, because this is such a groundbreaking, important film that paved the way for later films about and made by lesbians. and I hope that more people watch this movie and that it becomes more a part of the zeitgeist

because it should be a better known film than it already is. So 4.5 nipples. I'm going to give one each to Donna Deach, Jane Rule, Helen Shaver, and Patricia Sharbonneau, and then I'll give my half nipple to screenwriter Natalie Cooper. Yeah, I'm going to go four to half as well. I just adore this movie. I feel like it's on track to become one of my faves. It's so rewatchable.

It's so beautiful. This is not to shout out a man, but I'm going to quickly do so. Wow. The cinematographer is Robert Elswit, who, in addition to being Jake Gyllen Hall's godfather, was Paul Thomas Anderson's go-to cinematographer. This was like the beginning of his career, but he, we have covered so many movies that he's shot. He did Boogie Nights. He did Punch Drunk Love.

He did Gile. Wow. Wow. So the last episode, will we ever redo it? Who can say? Oh, my goodness, please. There will be blood, inherent vice, Mission Impossible movies. Like, he is, like, shot so many wonderful movies.

And this is so beautiful. And I just wanted to shout out that it's just like very beautifully shot as well. But back to women, the only people who matter. I am going to give it four and a half nipples for all the reasons we've discussed. And I'm going to give those, distribute those. nipples of Donna Deach. I'm going to give one to Jane Rule icon. She was so cool. And then, yeah, I will distribute them between Helen Shaver, Patricia Charbonneau, Audra Lindley, and Andrea Acres, who plays Silver. I love Silver. Yay. How about you, Emily? I think I'm going to also,

I was struggling between like a four and a four and a half as well. I adore this movie. I think it's fantastic. I also think it holds up really well in general. There is a complete lack of racial diversity in it that again even given the time like there would have been people existing in that space we're not like i want to i want to send you though this really really really great ebony article from i think the 60s or 70s about the specifically black divorce scene in reno which was also very vibrant and fascinating and no one talks about it and i want to see a movie about it so i'll kailan i'll send you that link to include in please please also just send it to me i want to read this It sounds fantastic. It's terrific. I want more, I want Reno Cinema to be a thriving subgenre. It's so

interesting. It feels like a rich text. Yeah. So I think because of that and because of the slightly dubious consent in the sex scene and all the reasons you've already talked about, I'll go with a four and a half as well because I just love this movie too much not to get that close to a five. And I will also evenly distribute it between all of the women who are involved in making this film and those beautiful horses whose faces we got to see. Oh, the beautiful faces. Horse girl representation. Well, thank you so much, Emily, for joining us for this amazing discussion.

Please come back any time, truly. Oh, thank you so much. I would love to. Come back for Gilly, just kidding. Tell us where people can follow your work, follow you on social media, etc. Sure. I am extremely online, so it's pretty easy to do. You can follow, well, I'd say my public Instagram is my DJ account because I'm a dirty DJ.

So it's just DJ underscore Milbot, M-I-L-L-B-O-T. I'm also at Emilymills.org for my sort of general professional stuff. And if you want to follow my band, we're damsel trash because you got me coming off of a gig weekend. So I got to shout out my band, Damsel Trash, which is put out a brand new album. People might be interested if you like fun, silly punk rock with lots of feminism and sex and politics. It's just at Damseltrash pretty much everywhere and on band camp as well. And shout out to Megan Rose, my partner in crime and damsel trash who couldn't be with us today, but is an incredible human being as well. Yeah, we'll have the both of you back for a different episode.

We would love that very much. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Oh, my gosh. Thank you. So appreciate it. You can follow us on. On Instagram at Bechtelcast, you can support us on Patreon, aka the Matrion, where we release two bonus episodes every single month, always based on a fun little theme.

Plus, you get access to the back catalog of around 200 bonus episodes. So if you've run out of Mainfeed episodes, head on over to the Matrion at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast. and that is $5 a month. And with that, it's me, Caitlin, signing off alone because everyone else had to run. But rest assured that we are all going to hop on a train together, maybe for the next 40 minutes, maybe to spend the rest of our lives together. Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of IHeart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus.

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