The Bechdel Cast - Die Hard with Debra DiGiovanni

Episode Date: December 21, 2017

The Bechdel Cast celebrates our one year anniversary with a live show! Guest Debra DiGiovanni joins Caitlin and Jamie to chat about Die Hard. Yippee Kay Yay! (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @DebraDiGiovanni on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology. Swaps of different meds.

But by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane, what we can do about it, and why we should care. Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles,

two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the president of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nickname Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer, this season on the new podcast, Rip Current.

Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad-free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to iHeart True Crime Plus, only on Apple Podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast, start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Good evening everyone and welcome to the show. Please help me welcome to the stage, Caitlin and Jamie! Hi! Welcome to the Bechdelcast! Caitlin and Jamie! Hi! Welcome to the VectorCast!

Thank you! How are you guys? You guys good? You're good? We are celebrating our one-year anniversary. So thanks for coming out and celebrating with us. Has everybody here, by a round of applause, has everybody heard it before, or did you just wander? Oh, okay.

Yay. So by round of applause, who has never listened to an episode of the Bechdel cast? Oh, and they're all sitting in the front row. Oh, good. So we can just stare at you and be like, actually, you wouldn't understand. This is a reference to a past thing we've done. Yeah, just a few things on top.

We're probably going to mention Alfred Molina for no reason. I think the list of reasons not to talk about Alfred Molina is very short. Yeah, you're right. For those of you who don't know what the Bechdel cast is, or you're like, hey, what am I getting into? We talk about the portrayal of women in movies we do it film by film every week we have a new movie that we tear apart and then our fans are like oh thanks for ruining this movie for us and today will be no different and hearts will be broken

hearts will be broken today yeah so we've been doing it for a year now we've had 52 individual different guests they've all been great. If they were men, they for sure interrupted us many times. Oh, yeah. There is not, even the male guests we've had that are near and dear to our heart, great friends, there's been, I mean, no short of five times where you're just like, and the patriarchy is back.

Yeah. Actually, here's what I think about Harrison Ford. It's like, ah! Like, it's been a real year. It's been a real year. Also, if you're like, what? Bechdel? What does that mean?

Is it what? I'll tell you. Who's that? Who? It's Alison Bechdel. Who's that? And she made a test called the Bechdel test. And it requires that a movie has at least one scene where there's a

single conversation between two women they have to speak to each other and their conversation has to be about something other than a man preferably those characters have names yeah we we prefer for them to have names just as you would in real life sure right there's what if people like what if someone went back and they're like the Bechchdel cast is never, because they're only talking about Alfred Molina. Honestly. I think that Alfred Molina is an exception to the test. And if it's two women with names talking about Alfred Molina, it still passes the Bechdel test. Personally, that's my belief.

Sure. So all it takes, just for the record, because I feel like we get this question a lot, is it only takes two lines of dialogue. It doesn't have to be a whole scene just literally hi Caitlin shut up Jamie passes done easy we pass it every day how many times yeah we've had that

very conversation leave my home so that's all it takes hey should we bring out our guests I think we should this is our our first time, second time. Whoa. This is our first second time guest on the Bechdel cast. Big honor.

Really a banner night for everybody. Oh, I see. Okay. It's our first repeat guest. Yeah. So this is our first repeat guest. You heard her last year on our Love Actually episode. Lots of hearts were broken because that movie is

garbage! It's a bad movie. It's bad for women. It's bad for the world. But we're so thrilled to have her back. Yes, we sure are. Should we say it in unison? I would love to. Okay, ready? Please welcome

Hey, does everybody want to give a big clap? I'm a poor Please welcome... Hey. Hey. Does everybody want to give a big clap? A big clap for... Deborah D. Giovanni! Oh, my goodness. Hello, girls. Hi. Good to be back.

Good to see you. Hello, live audience. Hi. Group of humans.. Good to see you. Hello live audience. Hi. Group of humans. I'm having a full on panic attack. Are you? That was a very stressful intro. My name is a lot, isn't it?

It's a whole bit. No, we love your name. It's perfect. Oh my goodness. Okay, well, so how are you? I'm well, thank you. Doing a quick check in. Yeah, I'm good.

Yeah? I'm good. Everything's fine. I have a puffy eye. Let's move on. We were talking about, we were talking, don't look at Debra's eyes. I have a puffy eye. Let's move on. We were talking about... Don't look at Debra's eyes. Don't look at my eyes.

Don't look at me. No eye contact! No eye contact. No eye contact. It's in my rider. Yeah. Also, you'll turn to stone. You don't...

You cannot make... I'm Medusa, apparently. That's what I'm saying. It's good. I think my hair looks a little better than that, but let's move on. It looks great. But again, not what's important.

Okay. We're talking about Die Hard. Woo! Has everybody seen Die Hard? Have we all seen Die Hard? Round of applause. Who has not seen Die Hard?

Again, a bunch of people in the front row. People are here to be the front row. Yeah. I love it. People are here to be seen and bullied. Yeah. Sorry. Wait, you both clapped your hands for someone who has never listened to the podcast, nor have you seen Die Hard.

Amazing. Do you know where you are right now? You're lost. I just wandered in out of the cold. The last live episode we did, my mother was sitting in the front row and she was loudly antagonizing us for the duration of the episode and and hitting on our guests very aggressive oh she was there she was like she just kept saying 1996 like just screaming it for no reason no it's 97 it was i'm. I am now Jill Loftus.

Screaming 1997 at you. Yeah, and then our friend was flirting with our friend who later was like, do you think I have a shot? Oh my God. Who was the guest? Who was she flirting with? To which, listen. Oh no, let's, okay.

It's triggering. Am I triggering you right now? He's my dad now. So I can't like, He's just my actual father. Oh, no. This podcast has ruined my life. I have a father who's my age. Amazing.

Yeah, he takes me out. We play basketball together. It's pretty fun. So, Die Hard. Die Hard. Yeah. I will do the Kateaitlin's famous recap all right uh and uh as always caitlin's recap was made to be interrupted yes although i i wrote

something out this time and i might just read it because i didn't i wanted this to be a really good recap for you guys i'll fuck it it up anyway. It doesn't matter. So the story of Die Hard. A Christmas story. It is a Christmas story. It is a... Yeah, let's put that to rest. It's a Christmas movie.

My recap does start with it's Christmas Eve. Is it? I don't even know when this movie takes place. Yeah, it is. It is. It's Christmas Eve.

Okay, that's what I thought. Wait, I already have a problem. Okay. Three words into it. Work party on Christmas Eve? Right. Seems... True. Very true. And then we see her call her kid and she's like, you're not home on Christmas Eve. And she's like, deal with it, bitch.

Passes the Bechdel test, but not good parenting. So it is Christmas Eve in this movie? Yes. I also find that peculiar. Because 24 hours doesn't pass. It feels like 24 hours passes, but it doesn't.

Right, right, right, right. So it's probably like, I don't know, five hours or something. I don't know. Yeah, it's just a bad party. If you've ever been at a shitty party for five hours, you've pretty much experienced Die Hard. To the recap, to the recap to the recap okay okay so it's christmas eve okay and john mcclain is a new york cop flying into la to see his wife holly he's got a big old bear and he's leering at women at the airport yeah yeah yeah he's on an airplane with a gun.

And he's like, no, it's fine. I'm a cop. Just hanging out of a holster. Yeah. Like not even properly stashed. Right. It's literally just in his pocket. Yeah.

And then immediately after that, yeah, he just leers at a woman. So if you weren't sure if this movie was going to be about toxic masculinity, the first five minutes really clue you in. Although the first theory is from one of the flight attendants. She leers at him. Oh, really? Yeah, that's the first one. I made a note.

I wrote it down. And we here at the Bechtel cast love the objectification of men. Oh, yeah. We're into it. We're right into it. And this is a good movie for male objectification.

Sure. There's a lot of, Bruce Willis, just from a story perspective, slowly getting neuter. It's a lot of Bruce Willis just from a story perspective slowly getting neuter it's a metaphor but also he is slowly getting neuter as in sexless

and E-U-T-E-R actively castrated that's the uncut version oh but it's cut Oh never mind Stop Let's move on Keep going

Keep going Seven degrees of a dick joke Recap Right Right right right What's the movie called? I'm one sentence Into the recap

So there's a plane There's a gun There's a gun And a man His name's John McClane He goes to see his wife Holly Who's at a work party At the Nakatomi Corporation, which is a trading company?

What do they do? Trading cards. Trading cards. They specialize. It's Pokemon. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. It's a business company.

It's 1988. It could be anything. It could legitimately be anything. For sure sure everyone's high on cocaine absolutely definitely yes without doubt

so he goes to this party in a giant building I wrote down in the middle of the party about a dozen German terrorists show up led by

Hans Gruber aka Alan Rickman see this is I'm so glad I wrote this down it's going so well I don't understand

there's like a visual when you said Hans Gruber people started like shifting in their seats like they had to change their underwear or something they're like Hans Gruber I don't get it

I think it's really synonymous with a villain now Hans Gruber do you know what I mean yeah like people are just they're just horny for Gruber but I think it's because

Rickman like plays such a good villain and this might be one of his first villains. You know what I mean? So now it's, I'm just saying. I don't know anything. I have a puppy eye.

Kate Rubin. I do not like Alan Rickman in this movie. We'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. Okay. So the terrorists take everyone at the party hostage. But they weren't counting on feminist icon John McClane being there.

And he really throws a wrench into the situation. The terrorists locked down the building. And they're trying to break into these vaults to get 640. What about the part where he's in the taxi? The limo? Maybe. Yeah. With Argyle?

I'm going to skip over some stuff. We're already 40 minutes into the show. I like that part. I like that. We've not talked about anything. We've been camped out here for three days. Okay. There is a part where he's in a car.

Okay. Keep going. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. So the terrorists are trying to get these bearer bonds, I think,

$640 million worth of them. Bearer bonds. And then the company's ceo again question mark i don't know what anyone does joe takagi um he's like i'm not gonna give you any information so he gets shot in the head meanwhile feminist icon yes exactly he kills this very aryan looking person and then he sends a sweatsuit and a In a sweatsuit. A grey sweatsuit. I would love to kill a man in a sweatsuit. Right. He kills him

by throwing him down some stairs. And then he sends what I like to call an elevator gram to the terrorists. And there's a little sign on it that says, now I have a machine gun. Ho, ho, ho. Ho, ho, ho. Alan Rickman sure knows

how to make a very short line last 45 minutes. Okay. McClane's like trying to get the cops to come and no one responds until our pal, Al Powell.

The plucky sidekick. Yeah. Plucky. That one. Sergeant Al Powell, aka Al Powell. Al Powell. He arrives at the scene

and then he and John become best friends. They really bond. They really bond. It's a bromance, big time. I'm surprised they don't kiss on the lips at the end. To be honest. They really connect over a walkie-talkie conversation

that all of the terrorists can hear. They don't even try to hide it. At two different times, Al says both, I love you, and it's a date. Yeah. Seriously.

Wow. Yeah, it's like, I didn't remember the depth of that relationship. Sexual undertones, big time, absolutely. They're a better match than John and his own wife.

Right. Honestly. Then McClane gets his hands on the terrorist detonators hans throws a fit the fbi shows up some explosions happen john's foot is bleeding a lot i love the part where he's being very dramatic about his bleeding foot yeah he's like tell my wife i'm sorry and it's like you're fine you're like he gets a little like foot scrape he's like, tell my wife I'm sorry. And it's like, you're fine. He gets a little foot scrape.

He's like, oh my god. This has actually been really hard on me all night. I actually don't know if I'm going to freaking make it. And then finally, the terrorists are able to break into the vault to steal the bonds that they're after. Hans discovers that John McClane is Holly's wife. So he's like, oh, I'm going to kidnap you now. And then he takes her gunpoint.

And then I forgot to finish writing the thing. But it's pretty much the end of the movie. We don't know. We'll never know. Pretty much. Yeah. He's like, oh, I'm going to kill your wife. And then John's like, yippee-ki-yay

motherfucker and he takes the gun feminist icon right if he said father fucker different story toxic masculinity yeah you're right i actually don't know how the logic in that works taped the gun to his back to his bloody sweaty back and somehow he's with i't know what, like he's taped it. Oh, yeah. That is physically impossible. I don't care how much yoga McClane does. There's no way that he's done that.

I never thought of that. Have you ever put tape on a sweaty? It's not happening. Yeah. I'm sorry. Scientifically speaking, right? Right. Because, yeah, there's no tape that.

Come on. I'm quite that tapey. Right? What if he put it all on the ground and then tape... And lay down onto it? Sticky side up. Very nice. No!

No one is laying onto a gun. That's insane. He's John McClane. John McClane. He's an icon, John McClane. He needs to save the women. You think that he's lightly planting his torso onto a gun? Yes. A loaded gun? Yes.

A loaded gun? What else? How else, everybody? I believe it. All right. I believe it. Okay. You know what?

I'm in. Movie magic. All right. So then he grabs the gun that he's lied down in tape. Two bullets left. Only two bullets left. Wow. And he uses them both so wisely.

Yes. And he kills the bad guys and then saves his wife and then everyone's fine. And then Al gets his moment. Al gets his moment. Feminist icon Al. And that's pretty much the end of the movie. That's the movie.

That's it. There we go. All right. Anyway, thank you. This has been fun. Thanks. Let's see us. So, Deborah,

what is your history with this movie? Now, okay, this movie was made in 1988. Yes. So I was a young person. I was in high school. And it was a big movie. Now, okay, this movie was made in 1988, right? Yes, yes. So I was a young person. I was in high school. And it was a big movie.

I remember it was all the boys' favorites. Everyone loved it. It was yippee-ki-yay, motherfucker. Like, oh my God. Ad nauseum. And it was really, it was a super popular movie.

And I remember re-watching it again and thinking to myself, I liked this movie. I really did. What? Oh, no. Like, it was a super popular movie. And I remember, like, re-watching it again and thinking to myself, I liked this movie. I really did. What? Oh, no. Like, it was, I was shocked to see how it really doesn't hold up.

But in 1988, we loved it. It was great. The boys loved it. People still love it. People still love it. I think people still do love it. I mean, what did they make, 17 Diehards now? Like, they made five, six.

Yeah. Five or six. Right? Yeah. As recently as, like, what? Less than two? Three or four years ago, maybe? That recently? No, I'm making that up. Is that even? I don't know what? Less than two? Three or four years ago maybe? No, I'm making that up.

Is that even? I don't know. I think like less than 10 years ago, right? Yes, for sure, for sure. Yeah, like Die Hard with a Vengeance. Justin Long was in one. Yeah. God.

You know what I mean? Justin Long needs to chill out. First of all, the title Die Hard is like what does that even mean? It's hard to die for John McClane. It's hard to die. It's not apparently. I've been thinking about it a lot okay what's your theory so i was like maybe it's they have diehard beliefs right and then i but

then i would thought about i was like no one in this movie has diehard beliefs they all seem pretty willing to just be like oh that person's dead well i guess this is my friend now like they're everyone is constantly uh john can't even explain why he wants to stay in New York. He's like, because I'm from there, and... So I said, fuck my wife, and fuck my kids, and I'm not going to move. That's not a die-hard belief. That's just dumb.

Yeah, so it's not that. People are dying in ways that don't seem easy. I guess that's right yeah like that's it the last German what's his face

the ballerina the professional ballerina you know him that one with the long hair he was a ballerina let's move on I don't mean to alarm anyone

it was big in the 80s let's move on I think he dated Jacqueline Bissett I'm an old woman let's move on alright backstory

he's the one that gets hung and then lives so it was hard for him to die then he's the one that comes out and then lives. It was hard for him to die. He's the one that comes out at the end. Another very Aryan looking person. Yes, right? Can we say about Gruber's accent? He's a British man

living in Germany or something? Because he's British the entire time until they speak German. Kaylin and I were watching this movie the other night in her bed as we do most episodes. No, but his accent

is crummy. It's bad. It really is. Yeah. It's just him. I think that's... Was Rickman... He was British, right?

Yeah. Okay, so I think it was just him being him and then every once in a while they'd be like, psst, you're German. And then, oh! And then he would do

a German accent. Yeah, Josh. At some point, someone would give him the old elbow. I posted something to that effect on Facebook recently and I had no less than six men being like, uh, actually his accent's very authentic

and good. Here's the link to the thing! He was just like, I'm gonna kill you off. I didn't even realize, we did our Love Actually episode with you. This is the second Alan Rickman movie. Oh my gosh. Rickman and Christmas. Rickman and Christmas.

What? Okay, we're going to have to do the third one. It's going to have to be May He Rest, but we're going to have to figure something out. We'll have to get his home Christmas movies or something and make fun of it. Yeah, because I mean, well, and last year, like late 2016, you had to every time we said, I think every time we said Alan Rickman, we were like Alan Rickman, Rest in Paradise. Now it's the end of 2017 and i feel fine being like i don't like it

resident paradise but i didn't like it bitch i did not like it did not like it i don't yeah his his accent is super awful because the german people he is with are very clearly german yeah like they are laying it like they're they're german and then he's he could take it or leave it take it or leave it i mean seriously he wasn't getting paid enough for a german accent he's like i'm not gonna try right so i didn't bother trying is not in his rider jamie what's your history with the movie i only saw this movie two years ago uh and I went, like, shortly after I moved here, and I lived with this woman who was very exhausting. And she was just like,

you haven't seen the da-da-da? And so then she made me stay inside for a whole night and watch this movie with her and her ex-boyfriend. And I sat in between them, and then, you know, he left. And she was just like, why were you flirting with him? I was like, I wasn't.

You made me stay here. So I saw it two years ago. Sure. Good. That's my whole history with that movie. Amazing. I saw it,

I think for the first time probably like 10 years ago. I didn't grow up with the movie, but I've only seen it like Who made you watch it? Do you remember? Like, was it your choice? It was my choice. Okay. Yeah, because I was like I am getting a master's degree. I need to watch a lot of movies. Wait, hold on a second.

Are you telling me? In screenwriting. In screenwriting? From Boston University. From Boston University university you have a what i don't like to bring it up what was no but sorry what was it a master's in screen wow that's can we just give her a quick round of applause wow let's give it up so much higher education yeah wow no so yeah this is like i have to see so many movies. And then I just watched it. And my feelings are that it's not a bad movie. I generally enjoy the first 45 minutes of it.

And then I get pretty bored of just like, oh, it's John McClane running through an empty room again. Yeah. And he is talking to himself a lot. Yeah. So yeah, it was always too macho for me, I it. Talking to himself a lot. Yeah. So yeah, it was always too macho for me,

I think. I don't remember, I don't think I ever saw the second one, but I know it took place on a plane. On an airport. Really?

Yeah, the whole thing. Well, and we do know in the second movie, this is as far as I looked into it, but we do know, which directly affects how we view the end of the first movie,

that he does end up moving to Los Angeles to be with his wife. Yeah. Which is good because he couldn't explain why he was doing what he was doing in the first place. He was just like, I'm an asshole. And so at the end, he's like, my wife is smarter and has more money than me, which, you know, men don't like to admit. It was all very semi-disgusting, though,

when he's talking to the guy in the plane about his wife. She got a job that turned into a career like a bitch. How dare she? You know what I mean? It really is. It's all like, my little woman is working. It's really 1988. It really, really is.

And that conversation kind of carries over into the next scene with Argyle, where Argyle's laughing at John and saying, oh, you thought she was gonna like fail and then she'd have to move back and be with you and he's kind of like he's like yeah definitely Argyle's like 17 I don't think he should be a professional limo driver

but whatever does he have a driver's license I'm not sure to be honest yeah but it's really kind of gross feminist icon Argyle yeah absolutely actually no he talks about, what's the point where he's on the phone and he's like, yeah, baby. I would never lie to you.

I'm coming over. I was like, oh man, I've dated him. First love. I've dated Argyle. So to piggyback on what you were saying, Deborah, yeah, so there's a whole subplot. I like to call it John McClane's insecurities about Holly Gennaro.

Yeah. Yeah. Gennaro. And her career because he has the conversation with Argyle about how he's like, blah,

I didn't think she was gonna be good at her job. And then he finds out that she's going by her maiden name. And she blames it on the fact that it's a Japanese company or something. Right.

Yeah. She's like, they're Japanese. They don't want me to be married. I'm like, what does that mean? I don't know what that means. Unclear. Yeah. But then you find out all this stuff about her as a career woman.

She's the director of corporate affairs. I read it on the door of her office. Oh, yeah. They don't tell you. You had to research. You had to look. I had to her office. Oh, yeah, they don't tell you. You had to research. You had to look. I had to pause it. You had to pause it.

Oh, wow. Everything business-like in this movie is extremely vague. Right. Director of Corporate Affairs. What does that mean? Sure. Did you see the watch? She got a fancy watch.

Right, right. We'll give the little lady a little sparkly. Something sparkly to keep her quiet. I don't know. There's a watch. And it seems like no matter what your title is, like, because director of corporate affairs, and they were like, her specialty is negotiation.

And then, but then there's the, who we'll get to. The douchebag. The douchebag. He's like, also, my skill is negotiate. I'm like, do you guys all have the same? Are you all interns? Like, what is, yeah, what is this,

what is this company? I don't know. The point is that a lot of them do talk about how skilled she is at her job. So she's established as like, a professional, capable woman.

So we're like, hey, cool, that's nice. There's also the scene at the beginning when they're like, looking down at the Christmas party

and you see Holly like, scurry through the crowd and she's still working while everyone else is partying so that shows you. She's not like the other girls. She's so professional.

I think she might have been carried like a clipboard or something. Do you know what I mean? Because she's a lady at work. A corporate affairs clipboard. Oh my gosh, yes. There are many sheets

of paper on that clipboard. Very, very business. No time, boys. There's affairs to be corporated. I have to go staple stuff. Out of my way. No, there's nothing. But the first time we see her, she's being actively affairs to be corporate in. I have to go staple stuff out of my way.

But the first time we see her she's being actively sexually harassed. That's the first time we see her. She's like hey you wanna get dinner? Did you also notice

that they don't show her face? Yeah. The first whole scene with her is douchebag like just being a disgusting pig and it's just the back of her head

the entire time. So it's like I just thought that was creepier than it should have been. And in a her head the entire time so it's like I just thought that was creepier than it should have been in a lot of movies we've done there's like very intentional reveals of like and the twist is she's gorgeous

like there's that twist a lot my favorite one that we've done is in Geely when Larry Geely because that's his name Larry Geely answers the door and it's like, Oh, there's a woman here.

Who is it? And then she turns around and she says, hi. And it's Jennifer Lopez. And you're just like, Oh, she's beautiful. But with,

with this shot, it's weird. Cause there's not a lot of intent because it seems like something's going to be revealed. It's like, Oh, we're following this attractive woman who's being harassed. And then she turns around and she continues to be an attractive woman who's being harassed there's no reveal i think maybe just the the dp wasn't very good yeah in this

movie right or just couldn't make eye contact with that day maybe that was just a wig walking a floating wig but bonnie bedelia couldn't make it it's her real name let's move on yeah i love it do your homework where is she so the next major plot point that happens within that subplot of him being very insecure about her success is that john mclean and holly have a conversation where he was just like you're going by your maiden name what's all that about and she's like the japanese company thing doesn't make sense don't worry and he's like well you just did whatever you wanted no matter what it did to our marriage and she's like you have this idea of your our marriage and blah blah and i'm doing a great job uh recapturing the magic of that scene but um

kind of the subtext is that basically he thinks that she chose her career over him yeah and he's very threatened by it and very resentful of it and he is basically there to be like you should i don't know quit your job and come back to new york or i don't know who knows come back to new york you gotta come back because i'm fighting crime over there. And she's like, actually, Japan. And he's like, oh, fuck. And he goes to the bathroom and then the movie starts.

He takes off his shoes, which becomes a major plot point. Very big plot point. With a bare foot. Very much, yes. I love when he cries. I just love when he cries. He's like, my feet. If you've seen Die Hard, which most of you have, Holly is not on screen enough in the movie. There's like, she's on screen, I think,

cumulatively for maybe 15 minutes, and that's being very generous. But this argument between them is interesting because it's hard to tell from the standpoint of the movie whose side we're supposed to be on. it's clear that john is it like in the wrong in terms of like she is doing very well there's even the people who are actively harassing her are saying she's great at her job which is uh you know that's another thing but there but you know like she's clearly very good at her job i love how that scene at the end is interrupted by her assistant who's like they need you to talk to the troops right and then she says sorry john the troops need me

she leaves where are the troops here on christmas eve i don't like by 1988 standards i genuinely was not entirely sure are we supposed to be like oh John's totally in the right and she's being such a shrew by saying, I want to have a life. Or are we supposed to think, wow, John's being a baby and he should put his shoes on? I mean...

Kind of hard to say. I think you could probably argue that the main demographic that this movie would appeal to is like adult men slash teenage boys. Like boy, yeah, you know, men boys. 15-year-old, you know what I mean? Right.

A lot of explosions. Horny boys. Yes. Horny boys. Horny boys. There's some boobs, you know what I mean? There's some naked boobs. They're not sure.

Yeah. So they're going to plug themselves into John McClane and be all like, oh, he's cool. So they're probably plug themselves into john mclean and be all like oh he's cool so they're probably gonna align with his view and be like oh his wife's just being a little bitch but even though clearly like let's be honest what did they get in new york for a cop salary like let's be honest where are they living you know i mean right come on they're in queens and like a two-bedroom apartment and she clearly had the guest room you know what i mean they're probably in a house in the valley and she's all you got the guest room it's lots of nights the room I mean clearly it's

they're doing better they had a housekeeper and then also in that argument yeah we've made our choice yeah we've been our choice we're sticking to it there's that part in that scene where he says like oh something about Topoma. And she's like, um, Pomona. I was like, oh, she's a little Cali bitch now. She's totally adapted. She's lived here for two seconds.

She's like, it's La Cienega. Exactly. Totally. Yeah. You're gonna want to take Fountain. You're just like,

calm down. Like, cool it. Totally. Right. So, yeah, whose side are we supposed to be on? Hard to say. I think probably most people watching this are like, oh, cool it. Totally. Right. So, yeah, whose side are we supposed to be on? Hard to say. I think probably most people watching this are like,

oh, John McClane, the hero, my hero. He's great. But by the end of the movie, that subplot basically resolves by him thinking he's going to die because he has a foot wound. Owie! He got cut with a glass on his foot. Owie, forgive me.

Yeah. He's talking to his Al pal, and he's like, tell my wife I'm sorry that I was being a jerk and I should have supported her more and been behind her more. It's a very long message for Al, isn't it?

Like, there's no way he's nailing that message. He's like, are you writing this down? He said he was, wait a minute, what was it? He was, uh, give me a second, I should have written it down. Uh, I Like, there's no way he's nailing that message. He's like, are you writing this down? He said he was, wait a minute, what was it? He was, uh, give me a second, I should have written it down. Uh, I mean, there's no way. Just like, tell her I'm sorry, and that's it. He's also working. So you

see this, like, you know, John going through this character arc where he's like, oh, I realize I was being a total asshole. And even after that fight he has with Holly, he is like all barefoot and he's in front of a mirror and he's like, oh, good job, John.

Real mature. So I think he knows he's being kind of a dick. Right. But he still is, you know, initiating a fight for no reason

because there's a moment where she's like, I've missed you. He's like, well, you didn't miss my name. He's like, couldn't you like, I don't know, say well you didn't miss my name he's like couldn't you like i don't know say i miss you too also what's with this name thing that you're doing

right right yeah there's that that was a moment where i was just like like everyone's had an argument like that where it's just like just take the win just like what are you doing yeah i don't know that was like one of the parts of the movie that I didn't remember where he's like constantly sort of berating himself either for making the masculine choice or not making the masculine choice where he like berates himself for yelling at his wife for not keeping his name because she am his property. But then at other points in the movie, he like berates himself, you know, in like Shakespearean monologue, which we're just like, well, this is what the world is like. You just yell at yourself. But he like berates himself for not acting more violently and acting like in a more protective way. So I don't know. He was more complex than I remembered him being.

I think the whole movie is actually more complex than I remember or that you might assume just on first glance because I think this is a movie that doesn't necessarily mistreat women. It certainly doesn't portray many women. It doesn't really treat women. Yeah, it just doesn't. There's really not women in the movie. So it's not as though the women in the movie are what few are, are being mistreated by the narrative. Yeah. It's more a movie that just sort of glorifies hyper-masculinity,

but then also doesn't, because there are a bunch of different types of toxic dudes who are very toxic in their masculinity. What about when he like, we have to walk past the topless girls on the wall, the pictures, and he like says hi to her, then comes back and says hi to her,

like talks to the topless picture. He puts his hand on it, and he's like, girls? Why did that happen? He comes back, and he's like, hey, babe. He talks to her like he's having a relationship with it, and it's weird. You did call this movie complex, though. Let's just go back.

You did call this movie complex. Get ready for my defense. All right, go, go. There is, like, that's, like, one of those scenes that I love to picture the, like, male screenwriter in his room, like, heh heh. Yeah, exactly. That's funny. That was a jerk-off motion, if you didn't know, listeners.

Yeah, sorry. Yeah, it's an audio podcast. But if you couldn't tell from my very saliva-heavy giggle. Yeah, exactly. They could tell. That was a jerk-off giggle. Spot on,. They could tell. That was a jerk off giggle. That was spot on, too. Spot on.

Yeah. He was like, I got him good. So stupid. Here I come defending myself. All right. No. I made a list of all the toxic bros. Oh, yay.

In the movie. There's so many. I made a list, too. Oh, my God. Wow, we suck. Well, first of all, we have the businessman cokehead bros. Yes. We have those bros.

And those bros are pretty universally punished by the world of this movie. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We're like, we're coming off the Reagan era. Everyone's like, well, actually, fuck these guys. We're just going to murder. So there's, is it Ellis?

Harry Ellis is the name of the character. Sure, good one, yeah. Whatever. He's hitting on, he's the one hitting on Holly at the beginning and then comes in later

and he's like, actually, I'm a bit of a negotiator. And he's, you know Alan Rickman. When he calls him Bubby or whatever, what is he?

It's disgusting. Oh yeah. It's just, yeah. Real, you know that there's some chode out there right now with a t-shirt that says Oh, yeah. It's just, yeah. Real, you know that there's some chode out there right now with a t-shirt that says that. You know, like, just not to trigger any chode listeners.

We have a ton. If you're a chode and you're listening, stop listening. We've had it with you. Or stop being a chode. We need the listeners okay so the toxic bros in this movie

yeah Harry Ellis who just high on cocaine the whole movie so bro-y that he thinks he can outsmart this group of like

mercenary terrorists right yeah and then gets murdered because of it there's Dwayne T. Robinson the deputy chief bro mercenary terrorists right yeah and then gets murdered because of it there's duane t robinson the deputy chief bro who just like he's the guy who he's like the police chief who like won't

listen to reason because al pal is being all like hang on like don't send the men in and he's like shut up he might just be a bartender the guy with the hair who's like don't yeah that applies to a lot of different characters so i'm not sure if the guy with the hair was like don't do that yeah sure i love that guy no i'm kidding yeah so there's him there's thornburg who's the tv bro who will just do anything for a story and then there's all the FBI, all the feds. The F all the feds are. Yeah. Chode losers.

Yeah. There's the terrorist bros and the biggest bro of them all. And they're literal bros like some of the actual brothers. Yeah.

Don't kill the bros bros. Don't get pissed. So the movie makes a point to like show these like toxic dudes and be like, they're bad. But this other one named John McClane, he's good.

Yeah, it's very selective about like, this is the kind of hyper-masculinity that we love. But don't do business. That's stupid. It's weird, yeah. That's stupid. It's weird. Yeah. That's why I say the movie is very complex.

Layers. Extremely. I wanted to talk about this scene where it's another time where we see Holly be very competent. There's two scenes

where we see her doing her job, which is negotiating. The first scene is when Alan Rickman is really overdoing it, and he's strolling through the audience. He says 16 words. It takes 50 hours for him to do it,

but he's trying to figure out who Holly's boss is, and she touches him. She takes his arm as if to say, I'm negotiating. Don't say anything. And then he goes against her wishes and it gets him killed.

So that's the first instance we see of Holly. We're like, oh, she was totally right to negotiate. She had the right instinct. She had the right instinct. And then there's the second scene with Holly and Hans Gruber negotiate she had the right instinct yeah she had the right instinct and then there's the second scene with holly and hans gruber uh where she i like the way you said that just i was doing my best giving it 110 yeah but we see holly and hans gruber talking and she does her job which is negotiate where she says hey there's a pregnant lady and she's

tired. And Alan Rickman says, okay, I'm listening. And if you don't want it to get messy, you better start bringing us to the bathroom in groups. He's like, I'll get you a couch. I have to pee and let's make it nice. No one's

squatting over a plant in this party. They're going to the bathroom. Although it would have been very exciting to see someone pee on a terrorist. Yes. I would have, imagine,

okay, there would be no question of like, this is a feminist text, if a pregnant woman pissed on a terrorist. That would be, yeah.

That would be a nice twist to the movie, wouldn't it? Like all the ladies, all right ladies, drop trap when everyone just started peeing. No one would remember. That would be crazy nice twist to the movie, wouldn't it? Like all the ladies, all right, ladies, drop trap. When everyone just started peeing. No one would remember. That would be crazy.

The terrorists would flee. Ah, they don't panic. Yeah. And flee, drop their guns, and the movie would be over. No one would remember that the line Yippee-Ki-Yay was ever said. Oh, my God, no. They would just be like, oh, that's the movie where all the seven-month pregnant women piss on terrorists.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that movie. Totally. What the hell? Let's do that if we're over here now. Director's cut. terrorists. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that movie. Totally. Let's do that at Forever Kid now. Director's cut. Surely that footage just hit the cutting room floor. Yeah, yeah. But yes, that is the scene where I think we see Holly kind of at the peak of

her powers because so often in movies like this, women be hysterical. Women be fainting. Women be fainting. No one faints, one faints i don't think in this movie so women be a damsel in distress which happens to her a half hour later but in this scene like the scene with her and alan rickman i really like because she effectively negotiates he listens to her even though you know he's a terrorist and he's like needs to be pissed on but like he he says okay and they negotiate and then that's the end of the scene and i guess my

problem i do like that you see her take an active role and do something the trouble is it doesn't really have anything to do with the plot so we could cut that scene out of the movie and it wouldn't make any difference basically that's a good point so and then there's a moment later on as you mentioned when she becomes a dan well right before that she's in the room with hans and i think this is after he has learned who she is that she is john mclean's wife right and this would be very different if everyone was texting each other instead of on public walkie-talkies but she says something like uh all of your posturing, all of your speeches, you're nothing but a common thief.

And then he wigs out. He flips and he runs over to her. He's like, I'm an exceptional thief. How dare you? That's like every man in any situation. How dare you emasculate me? I'm great at what I do. I once dated someone who I corrected because he said the wrong thing

in a McDonald's drive-thru. And he was like, I've actually always prided myself in how well I order things. So actually, you wanted a McDouble. I heard it, and you will eat it. Anyways, that's what I thought. Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

So he kidnaps her then and he's holding her at gunpoint. So John McClane has to do the thing that drives me nuts where he has to save a woman who's in a damsel in distress and he does it by, you know, pulling the gun that he's taped to his back

by lying on the ground and with the tape face up. You know, how we've all done that. And then he shoots Hans the gun that he's taped to his back by lying on the ground and with the tape face up you know how we've all done that and then uh he shoots hans and then there's he has to save holly again whenever hans is kind of like stumbling out through the window grabs holly by the wrist and he's like about to pull her over the ledge so john mcclain comes and he undoes her Rolex watch band and then the watch flies off and then Hans falls and we're like yay he's dead. I argue too that that's

like a symbol. I think so. He tears her Rolex off of like this thing you just got for I mean like logistically we know he has to tear that off but I think. It's like that's what she got for her good work and he's throwing that. Right and he's like fuck this. And she wouldn't have thought herself to like hey he's got my watch let's undo it he was like out of the way little lady i'll

undo your watch for you you know what i mean it's a whole thing like that was that was a symbolic gesture i wrote that down too uh and whether you know the filmmakers intended for that to happen or not me as a very good audience member was like this is my brain seeing this visual symbolism. Caitlin, you're really putting that master's degree to work. Right? Wow. Right? But the other thing that drove me nuts about that moment is that why couldn't she undo

her own, like, why couldn't we give her that moment? Yeah, exactly. She couldn't have been like, I've got this one, John. Clink, and then there we go. But no, he's got to do it for her. Right. So it just, it drove me crazy that she didn't get her own big moment like that

because you know who else gets a moment like that for no fucking reason? Pretty much everyone else in the story. Even Argyle does. Even Argyle gets a moment where he crashes in

and then punches the guy. And he gets even less screen time than Holly, I think, but he's like, let me crash into the... Yeah, they let him be a hero. Totally.

I forgot. That's a good one. Holly does get a moment like that, but for me, it rang kind of hollow. Where Holly, she punches the journalist in the face at the end of the movie. But for me, I was already incensed at that point in the movie because it's set up so many times where she's like,

Holly Gennaro, Holly Gennaro. And we know the moral of this movie is, take the man's name. You belong to him so like you know that that's coming and she's going to be like holly mclean and we're like we love heteronormies and that's like the moral of the film right so it's already mad because you know that's coming and by the time she punches the journalist in the face but it's also just kind of something we've talked about a lot before of like giving a female character an action to do in order to impress the men around her that has no bearing on the plot right this happens in action movies all the fucking time just like the the fucking mcsweeney's

article that we talk about every single day yeah i'm a woman and I'm going to kick one time. And all the men are like, whoa, she's hot and she kicked one time? We take her serious now. And that was how that one, the one physical action. And also, she only takes physical action way after it has any bearing on the plot. Right, the stakes are non-existent now because the movie is over. The terrorists die.

No one's in danger. Right, right, right. If she would have killed the last guy, that would have been good. Instead of Al, that would have been good. Oh, but I liked that Al did it. I don't know, I like it a lot. But how many shots?

It would have been better if it was just one shot and he killed him. What do you do? Like he unloaded like four or five shots? Like seriously, come on out. That's why you're at a desk. I'm't know. I lie like it all. But how many shots? It would have been better if it was just one shot and he killed him. What do you do? Like you unloaded like four or five shots? Like seriously, come on out. That's why you're at a desk. I'm just saying.

You know what I mean? Sharpen up, man. Why isn't Al chief? Oh, that's why. That's why. Exactly. He's a bad shot. He killed a bystander

and broke a car window and then finally got him in the shoulder. God bless. Can we talk about the surprise kiss that happens? Yeah. Let's do it.

Okay. Like, blink and you'd miss it. But when John McClane first arrives at the party, a man comes up to him. Oh, yeah. Grabs him, says, Merry Christmas. Kisses him on the cheek. And the look on his face.

Yeah, he's just like. Of just like, incredulous. What? A male man? A man? A human man?ulous what? a male man a man a human man kissed me and a man

kissed me? and it's it's all it's all very like oh LA oh California you west coasters what's next?

quinoa? like it's all a whole thing you know yeah although they didn't have quinoa in the 80s

but whatever let's move on sure sure sure yeah that was a fun I was fully ready for a surprise kiss whole thing, you know? Although they didn't have quinoa in the 80s, but whatever, let's move on. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, that was a fun, I was fully ready for a surprise kiss to happen in this movie, as happens in

almost every movie that we've seen. Almost every major release of the past 100 years features someone being kissed at random without their consent. 90% of the time, it's a woman.

Every time we talk about surprise kiss, I've just, you know the the time it's a woman. Every time we talk about Surprise Kiss, I just, you know the movie, right? The Mummy. The Mummy. You're gonna talk about The Mummy, I know. When Brendan Fraser's literally in a cage, completely feral,

just lunges at Rachel Weisz and kisses her, and then she goes, oh, my God. She then she goes, oh. She falls in love with him. It's the best moment in cinema. Right, this is the first male-on-male surprise kiss that we see. So I just wanted to point that out,

that history was made on the Bechdel cast just now by us talking about this. It was still fucked up and consent important. But also, boy, does Bruce Willis think boys kissing is gross? Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Oh, can we talk about one of the other few female characters we see on screen that has a speaking role is the emergency responder woman

who's very bad at her job. What's going on with her? I know completely inept, but did you notice they gave a lot of like the voiceover parts to ladies, like the dispatcher in the car, the women, there was a lot of sort of like, you know,

disembodied female voices. Yeah. That's a lot. I mean, I feel like that's a lot of, a lot of disembodied female voices, a lot of disembodied female body parts. Yeah.

A lot of screams that a lot of women got to lot of disembodied female body parts. A lot of screams. A lot of women got to scream on camera. Do you know what I mean? And one lucky woman got to scream and have her tits fall out of her shirt. Absolutely. What a gift. What an amazing role.

The housekeeper, I think, probably had more... She did. She had more dialogue than just Holly. Like second to Holly, I think. The top. She did. She had more dialogue than like just under Holly, like second to Holly. The top 10 minutes of this movie have the most female speaking roles of the entire movie where we hear Holly talk to her assistant. We hear her talk to her daughter and we hear her talk to her housekeeper. They all have names and you're just like,

whoa, maybe this is the best. And then John McClane person, he's like, why don't you have my name and it's a nightmare for the next 45 hours because this movie is very long he's just like it's just me now on the screen no women allowed there's every time because i watched this movie twice before we recorded this and there

there's like a good 30 minutes where i was like not paying i was just pacing it's just like oh maybe bruce willis is skipping around i don't know what he's doing cartwheels like there's just a long string of time where he's talking to himself and murdering but which i don't find very compelling i don't know but his tank top though goes from pretty pristine and white to a little bloody to instantly black with dirt. How did it get there? What happened? He's a dirty boy. And then it goes back to being a little less dirty and kind of white again.

But then he doesn't take it off at some point and put it back on? It's because he has it on at the end, doesn't he? Does he? He has a jacket on. Okay. But the point is we do see Bruce Willis' nipples, and it's important. We do get to know some nips.

Nips of all genders are represented in this movie. Right, well, the scene where you see the bear lady's breasts, or the lady's bear breast is how you say that. Not a lady bear. Yeah. Right, right, right. Although, how many nipples does a bear have i mean no one knows no one knows you can never figure it out there's no way to a bear to count their nipples okay i'm back um that all right so you see the woman's bare breasts and fine female nudity

whatever uh if it happens for no reason like it does in this movie pretty annoying but if we are gonna see it let us see some like male thighs or something like Oh, see, I was going to argue from very early in this movie, we see Bruce Willis' chest hair fully, it seems it's been teased outwards from his body.

It seems like that was someone's job. He was quaffed. Definitely quaffed. Like seriously, that was like. Because then later, I mean my impression

at the beginning watching it this time, I was like, wow, he must have a lot of chest hair because it's like he can't control it. And then later when he takes off his tank top, you're like, oh, there's really not that much there. But what is there is just six inches extended from his body.

It's like, you know what? Somewhere they cut and they're like, can someone get on his chest hair? Get on Willis' chest hair. Who does hair for prom? Can we get that on his chest hair? Please, please. We would like a full perm. It was the 80s.

They didn't know better. They didn't know. A lot of volume in the 80s. I loved Bruce. I loved Bruce Willis' voluminous chest hair. I thought it was great. Wonderful. Can I say that there are hardly any women whose names that we know in this movie, but

there are three different men who have the last name Johnson that we know and they talk about it a lot. Really? There's Agent Johnson, Special Agent Johnson, and Harvey Johnson, the newscaster on TV. Yeah. Wow. Three guys with the last name Dick. Pretty much.

This is Mr. Penis here and and he is business, and he is money. Did we know the pregnant assistant, or was she just a woman with child? Jenny. Yeah, we know her name. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, I wanted to go back to the emergency responder woman, who's very bad, because John McClane's like, hey, we're having a terrorist attack. And she's like, doesn't sound like it. And then there's rapid gun terrorist attack and she's like doesn't sound like it

there's like rapid gunfire and she's like I don't think so but maybe I'll send a cop over and it was just very frustrating to see one of the few women on screen who has a speaking role be very bad at her job like aggressively to the point of like

is this it clearly wasn't her first day she was in charge. She was. Yeah. And, and, and also to see, because Bruce Willis,

his character is very frustrated with her. And he's like, come on, dude, send the thing. And it's like, I'm kind of on his side. I'm like,

why isn't she doing her job? Yeah. Unclear. Who knows? We also see, I wrote down the few places we see women who are not hostages in this movie, or as I like to call them, full titty hostages. We have Lucy McClain, the daughter.

We have the housekeeper whose name is? Paulina. Paulina. Paulina. We have the emergency woman and her coworker who are both like um what does a gunshot sound like and then and then there's one female on-screen journalist for a split second who we see yeah who delivers uh hey it's almost christmas and that's and they're like okay we've had enough women let's get let's cut back to another person named Johnson. This for sure is a movie populated by almost entirely men

because all of the dozen terrorists are men. I think all of the cops, all the LAPD, all the FBI you see are all men. It would be so easy to have like one of the Johnson FBI people be a woman. I feel like they would have done that now. Like anything in an action film made in the last five years, one of the terrorists would have been a woman, for sure. She wouldn't have said anything, but she could fight. You know what I mean?

She would be the, I'm the girl who kicked. She would crush somebody with her thighs. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that would be her gig, you know? I am kick lady. Yeah, absolutely. But she'd also probably be the leader's lady. You know what I mean?

Right. There'd be a moment where he'd make out with her, and then she'd go kill a man. And make no mistake, she would be very hot. she was super hot she deadly hot and then and then then one of the cops would have been a woman as well right yeah right but never the main cop no never the main she would have been like she'd be like a rookie or something like it's my first day i'm not gonna be able to do much yeah so i'm gonna stay in the car. That's been her thing for a bit. How far we've come in 30 years.

Die hard. Now women can be around, but they cannot speak or do anything. I'll have to admit that I've only seen Die Hard 2 and then none of the other sequels, so you in the audience probably have seen more than me. Clap if you've seen a die-hard sequel okay yeah really yeah i've seen three i saw three and then i think i saw the one with and i think

justin is justin long is he number four number four i saw three and four skip two but i saw three and four wow and i know there's a fifth one right there's a fifth one I didn't watch that I haven't seen that one there's Die Harder Die Hardest Die Hardly I think Die Hard the most I think there's also one remember when Bruce Willis was like we're not gonna swear in this one and then he there's no cursing in one of them because you know this whole thing was motherfucker fucker fuck fuck and then the next one was all like gosh darn it you know there was a lot of that yeah I hate that

I don't remember which one it was might have been five four I think terrorists stink they're rotten to the core those jerks

right when people shoot me for the lovers for the sake yeah would they dub it that was always my favorite

yeah oh god I love I wish I had seen silly fruitcakes I wish I had seen... Silly fruitcakes. I wish I had seen Die Hard on a cable edit, because there's nothing better than an action movie. I think I've brought this up multiple times,

but I saw Kill Bill for the first time on TNT. Oh, no. And there's that great... I mean, it's great both ways, but the scene in Kill Bill 1 where he says my name is Buck and I like to fuck right yeah on TNT it's fully dubbed

well enough that until I saw it on DVD I did not know my name is Buck and I like to go to parties no I was like oh what a strange thing. What a strange light of dialogue. There's way too many syllables. Fuck one syllable. Go to parties, four syllables. I was like, well, that's pretty, I mean, I guess that we know who this character is now, but he's about to die. Why do we need to know?

Another one last point I wanted to make is that we often talk about how women of color even have less roles between Al Pal, Theo, which is the black hacker on the terrorist side of things, Argyle, Takagi, the CEO? Again, question mark? Don't know what his role is. Everyone who works there has got a question mark next to their job. And then one of the special agent, Johnson. One of the Johnsons.

One of the Johnsons. Whereas... Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not wrong. nonsense. Whereas. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're not wrong.

You're not wrong. No, I'm technically not. Yeah. All right. But correct me if I'm wrong. I think the only woman of color we see on screen is Paulina. Yeah. So all the men,

I think there might've been one screaming woman in a crowd, but that's right. Right. An extra. It is not. It did seem though that, um, all of,

it was kind of like a gender split men and women pretty balanced out of the people who worked at the nakatomi corporation i didn't i didn't notice i i spotted five women at that party okay i spotted five women two bare breasts or as you put it a bare woman's breasts. Yeah, a bare woman. But there were only, by my count, there was only like five or six women at the party. Okay. Which I'm sure represented about how many women would be working at a business.

A business corporation? At that time. A business company, yeah. There weren't a ton of women at the party, unfortunately. Okay, yeah, I miscounted. I have a master's degree in screenwriting, not math. But yeah, it was just, I thought worth noting

that the one woman of color you see on screen has, you know, she's a housekeeper, nothing wrong with that, but, you know, no one in a leadership role or anything like that, whereas you have, you know,

cops and FBI dudes and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. But technically, this does pass the test, though, because ladies have conversations. you have you know cops and fbi dudes and stuff like that yeah yeah yeah yeah so but technically this does pass the test though because they there's ladies have conversations oh yeah we will we will get yeah yeah we'll we'll break it down scene by scene uh but before we do that should we do our game yes let's do it okay so guys so it's a live channel so we're like hey let's do something so something we like to do on the bechtelcastle lot, if you're a listener,

is we like to call various toxic men feminist icons for fun. So I devised a game for us to play featuring a bunch of men that we've discussed either today on a separate episode or just I wanted you to look at a picture of them. And we'll have our guest, Debra, determine if they are a feminist icon, a queer icon, or trash that belongs in the garbage. And then we're going to consult with you guys, too, to see if you agree. Unfortunately, whatever Caitlin and I think is the answer. All right, so if we could just go to the first slide.

John McClane and Die Hard, how do we feel? Feminist icon, queer icon, belongs in the garbage. I would say, just because of the tank top, queer icon. Am I right? There's a lot of tank top. Well, what do you guys think? What do we think? Queer icon?

I think queer icon One point for Debra Next one, Gerard Butler as Phantom of the Opera What do we think? Queer icon 100% queer icon I think trash No, he's a queer icon

Look at his mask He's holding a rose Next one Jim Carrey Trash, trash. No, he's a queer icon. Look at his mask. He's holding a rose. Next one. Oh, no. Jim Carrey. This is Jim Carrey in Jim Carrey's showboats for 120 minutes to the delight of no one. And how the Grinch told Chris.

Piece of garbage that belongs in the trash. Am I right? Yes. Yes. That's correct. Adult Grinch is trash. Next slide. Hans Gruber and Die Hard feminist icon, queer icon, garbage that belongs in the trash.

Really testing your how... Garbage that belongs in the trash. What are we thinking? Feminist icon. Why? Because he talked to a woman one time? I don't,

what do you think? I think he's a feminist icon. Oh no! Alright, Debra, Debra gets, okay,

okay, you get it. Next one. Baby Grinch. What about, here's where I thought, what about Baby Grinch that's a feminist icon

am I right that's a feminist icon I would also say he's also a queer icon yeah yeah yeah feminist and a queer icon for sure Baby Grinch

what do you think very iconic very iconic I agree yeah how could you not fall in love alright next slide Malcolm Crowe

in The Sixth Sense. A different Bruce Willis character. I'm going to say garbage that belongs in the trash. I would say that. What do you think? I haven't seen that movie in forever, so sure. Garbage? We've got garbage. We have some people... Garbage? Okay, garbage.

He's garbage. Next one. That's it. Next one. Haley Joel Osment. Oh, no! But not in The. Next one. That's it. Next one. Haley Joel Osment. Oh, no! But not in The Sixth Sense, in Sex Ed, where he plays a sex ed teacher named Dan. Queer icon. Queer icon. Am I right? Come on. Queer icon.

He's holding a banana. Yeah, he's a queer icon. Yes. He's such garbage. He's like... No, he's a queer. He becomes an old man with a baby's face. Am I right?

That is... That is... Oh, no. Look at this. He becomes an old man with a baby's face. Am I right? That is, that is, oh no. Look at this. Behind him it says STDs. Slang. The clap. I'm not even going to say queer icon. I'm going to say strictly lesbian icon. Like just strictly.

What do we think? Yeah, all right. Okay, he's an icon. Next one. Period. Feminist icon Beetlejuice. Feminist icon next one period feminist icon beetlejuice feminist icon yeah well his title is feminist icon beetlejuice yeah the name of the movie is feminist text beetlejuice yeah well that's an easy one that's an easy one separate snape and harry potter

queer icon am i I right? Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, queer. Caitlin and I have discussed this. He's for sure not a feminist icon, but he is a queer icon. He's a queer icon. Absolutely. He is. All right.

Next one. Fourth grade Grinch. I feel like that's a perfect tie of all three. Wait. Do you know what I mean? That is queer. Baby Grinch was queer. Yeah.

Queer. No, well, Baby Grinch was queer and feminist. So this one's queer, queer feminist and a piece of garbage what did we give adult was he trash he was trash then yeah whatever

next slide okay fine Al for Melina and Spiderman feminist icon and Jamie's husband. Feminist icon. Yeah. I'm soaking wet.

I need to change my freaking pants. He was amazing. Remember how good he was to his wife though in that movie? Like let's be honest. He was literally

obsessed with her. And he was a good teacher and it was all great. He was a vengeance. Feminist icon. He was avenging hard in that movie. Oh my God.

He so was. I love it. Okay next one. His rose. Okay anyway. Alan Diehard. Feminist icon. Queer icon. Queer icon. Queer was. Okay, next one. His rose. Okay, anyway. Alan Diehard. Feminist icon. Queer icon.

Queer icon. Queer icon. Feminist icon. I was going to say feminist icon because he's like, my wife's pregnant and I'm addicted to her. Okay.

You know? I don't know. What do you think? I think feminist. Okay, we'll do it. What do you guys think? Although, he loves Twinkies.

You know what? It's also very body positive. Like, look at him. Come on. Do you know what I mean? There's no way he could be a street cop. Like, look at him. Come on. Do you know what I mean? There's no way he could be a street cop. Jesus Christ. Let's be honest.

You know what I mean? He's at a desk. Because he needs to be at a desk. He's a desk man. He's a feminist icon. He's a desk man. Yeah, that's it. All right.

That's my type of desk man. Yeah. Next slide. Oh, this is Bruce Willis frantically claiming he's not a Republican. I hate government. I'm apolitical. Write that down. I'm not a Republican. Bruce Willis frantically claiming he's not a Republican. I hate government. I'm apolitical. Write that down. I'm not a Republican.

Bruce Willis is fully Republican. But he spends a lot of time telling people he's not. Is this a feminist icon, queer icon, or trash move? Trash move. Bruce Willis is trash. Can we just note that that quote comes from Quote Fancy. Guys, I have a membership with QuoteFancy.com. You're going to quote.

Bumblebee in the Transformers franchise. Queer icon. Yeah. Anyone named Bumblebee, come on. I wish that was my nickname. Michael Bay would be so mad if he knew that Bumblebee was a queer icon. Oh my god. Are you kidding?

He set this place on fire. Alright, next one. Cartoon Grinch? Feminist icon? I'm just going to say icon, period. Icon. Iconic. Cartoon Grinch, iconic.

Look at that face. Come on. I know. All right, next one. Alfred Molina and Boogie Nights. Oh! He's a feminist icon. He's a feminist icon and a queer icon. And just,

do you remember? It was great. He's the beginning, the middle, and the end. He really is. He's the greatest. He's everything. Is that the final one?

All right. And that is the game we call Feminist Icon, Queer Icon, or Belongs in the Trash. You can play that at home with your family over Christmas holidays.

Yeah. Yeah, see where your family's loyalties lie What does your family think of every phase Of the Grinch's life I'll forward you my PowerPoint So should we talk about Whether or not the movie passes the Bechdel test

Yes We already hinted that it does Because it does Very quickly Holly talks to her assistant Jenny Holly says Jenny it's 540 go join the party have some champagne you're making me feel like

Ebenezer Scrooge she does mention a man but but in a bad reference though if the joke sucks is it if she had said you're making me feel like feminist icon the grinch feminist slash queer icon you know it's crazy if she was talking about the grinch i'd

be like she's not talking about a man she's talking about an idea the grinch is non-binary as fuck i know that okay i we've this is crazy and this is like how hard it is to get a movie to pass the Bechdel test sometimes we've had a situation before

where it's two women talking about a fictional man and we're like what does it mean does it count as a man if the man

isn't real and that is just indicative of wow women are not talking a lot in this movie well so Ginny responds and says talking a lot in this movie. Well, so Ginny responds and says,

thanks a lot, Mrs. McClain. Do you think the baby can handle a little sip? And then Holly says, the baby's ready to tend bar. And it's a hilarious joke that we all laugh and laugh at. That's a funny fetal alcohol syndrome gag. That is a feminist iconic scene. So I would argue that that does pass

because the last two lines of that exchange, they're talking about the baby. They're making fetal alcohol. What if it's a male baby? We don't know. We don't.

Seriously. There we go. Guys, come on. Is she gestating a Johnson in there? What's happening? You know what? But there's more.

There's more scenes where it passes. Yeah, so shortly after that, she calls her home, and Lucy picks up her daughter. Yes, and she says- Who does us the favor of stating her full name. Yeah. McLean residence, Lucy McLean speaking. It's like, okay, exposition heavy, calm down.

Yeah. And then she says, hello, Lucy McLean, this is your mother speaking. And she says, mommy, when are you coming home? Pretty soon. You'll be in bed when I get there because I'm not spending Christmas Eve with my family. Instead, I'm at a party. I'm talking to the troops. Talking to the troops with Holly Gennaro coming soon to Public Access TV.

And then she says, don't go snipping around the house looking for presents. Let me talk to Paulina. And then Lucy says, is daddy coming home? So a man does get mentioned there. But all the lines up until then, I would say pass the best. And then immediately after with her housekeeper, it passes again. Although they do spend most of that conversation talking about John McClane. There's no exchange in there?

Well, Paulina says, hola mrs holly and he says is it the dialogue that's bad or is it my impression that's bad no i'm just i'm just saying that the only woman of color we see on screen is put in a like a role that is very stereotypical sure sure yes uh and then holly says did mr mclean call so not so much paulina says no mrs holly no telephono and holly says oh he probably didn't have time before his flight it might be a good idea to make up the spare bedroom just in case and then paulina says i do that already and holly said what would i do without you, Paulina? I would say that conversation does not pass the test. Okay.

Because they're pretty much exclusively talking about Mr. McClain. I agree with you, yeah. I mean, we can get into the semantics of it, but I mean, the movie does pass. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But to my knowledge,

is that the last time it passes? Ginny comes in a little bit later to say, hey, Mr. Takagi is looking for you. He wants you to say something to the troops. Yeah, but Mr. Takagi and looking for you. He wants you to say something to the troops. Yeah, but Mr. Takagi and also the troops.

Right, so does not pass. Because the troops are probably there. Isn't there a moment though later when they're at the party and she's like, he's alive. And then.

I don't think Jenny responds. Oh, she doesn't respond. Okay. Yeah, I think she's too. She's drunk off her ass at this point. Oh, okay. She's poisoning her baby.

She's like, actually I just had three Jaeger bombs and I'm relatively useless to respond. She's poisoning her baby. She's like, actually, I just had three Jaeger bombs and I'm relatively useless at present. Is that the last time that women speak?

There's one more time where the two emergency responder women, John McClane has like radioed for help. The first woman, we don't know their names, so it does not pass either way.

The first woman says, it's the same address as the fire signal. And then the second lady who's very bad at her job says i'll handle it and then does a really bad job of handling it yay yeah so those are all the exchanges that women have in the movie die hard so most of them don't pass but the first couple do i have one everyone's surprise i have one more thing i wanted to talk about before we let everyone free uh is the end of this movie is so frustrating to watch because we see john mclean have this big revelation where he he says to al for some reason i say i love you to my wife all the time but i've never said i'm sorry and And this is a big revelation.

And it's kind of like a very emotional moment for a male action hero to have. And I was like, oh, this is cool. This is good. He's working through some stuff. This movie is so complex. You're right. Right. But then we see the problem resolved.

The terrorists are no longer an issue. He goes to his wife. And we already see that scene where she's like he's going to save us or whatever and it's like oh she's taking his last name back this is not good this is not good she said something like oh he's still alive only john could make someone that crazy yeah right right i'm just like oh they're gonna fuck later this is exhausting and they're but and then at end, he has this whole revelation about, like, I should just say sorry.

And then at the end, not only does she take his name back, he does not say sorry. Not to her, no. He does not apologize. He's just like, oh, I had to say to my wife is I'm sorry. And then he kills Alan Rickman, makes out with her, and he's like, you have my last name again. Let's get out of here.

He never. So it's just like this whole example. Rickman makes out with her and he's like you have my last name again let's get out of here he never so it's just like this whole example like it's all set up for him to grow as a person but we don't actually get to see him do it right that woman is robbed of that opportunity to be apologized to because like

that whole subplot is like I don't respect your career choices and I'm threatened by your success and then he's like tell my wife I'm sorry and I should have supported her but I don't respect your career choices and I'm threatened by your success. And then he's like, tell my wife, I'm sorry. And I should have supported her. I can't tell her to her face. I die.

I can't, I can't with that there. I mean, and it's that time of year now where especially this year, uh, every woman should just be profusely apologized to by every man they've ever met. It's the new hello for men.

I'm sorry. I'm so very sorry. God. All right. Well, that was my thing. Yeah, no. Does anyone have any other final thoughts before we rate?

No, I'm exhausted. Yeah. Do the audience members have anything they want to pipe in? Any questions? Any thoughts? Queries?

Yeah. Looking at all five movies, it's very sad and frustrating to hear about John and Holly's relationship breaking down. Because it does completely break down by the end,

doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. They have not reconciled by the end of the fifth one. Yeah. Oh. Wow. Although,

it seems like that's where it was headed in movie one, where it's like, and she seems pretty done, but it's like, but my foot bled and I like you and she's like alright I guess we'll give her another try

that's a bummer I didn't know that's how it ends good point I'd say that as far as 80s this was pretty progressive towards women because even though you have the two incompetent women Holly seems very competent so the percentage of competent women to the percentage of competent men,

you have John McClain and Al are competent. You have one competent woman in a room with like... That's true. All the feds are idiots. All the cops are idiots. That's true. And it was 1988. That's what we're forgetting. 20% competent women. And you know what? Let's be honest. Paulina,

what would we do without Paulina? She's doing a good job. I'm right. She's raising their children. So we've got equal competence there. Nice. The 80s. I think it's so funny because it's like, yeah, the women have a higher percentage of competence, but everyone's still failing. That's an excellent point.

Good deal. Yes. I was kind of pissed off about Paulina, the reporter who goes to her house. He only gets in there because he threatens to call immigration. Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, my God. I can't believe we didn't remember that.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That happened. Yes. Yeah, there is a moment where the journalist bursts into their home and threatened to deport Paulina, who has done literally nothing except be herself and have her job and you know like exist and she has to be threatened to do something she would have done anyways

yeah that's a good point good catch totally nice one more thing you had a question too who would you cast in a Ghostbusters style reboot of this movie all female reboot of Die Hard oh my god okay okay

can Gal Gadot do something yes Gal Gadot Oh my god. Okay. Okay. Can Gal Gadot do something? Yes. Gal Gadot is Hans Gruber. I just want to make her a baddie. What's her face? Oh god. Did you all see Thor? I didn't see Thor.

What's her name? Oh my god. I'm lost. Our beautiful. Tessa Thompson. Tessa Thompson. Yes. She was amazing.

Right? Amazing. She could be. I don't know. She could be Al. Could she be Al? She could be. Tessa Thompson. Yeah, she was amazing, right? Amazing. She could be, I don't know, she could be Al. Could she be Al? She could be Al Val, absolutely. And then, who's gonna be John McClane?

Baby Grinch. Baby Grinch. Baby Grinch. Baby Grinch. Nice, nice. Yeah, wow. Tiny Muppet, Baby Grinch. No, I say Leslie Jones.

I say Leslie Jones should be John McClane. She would be amazing. I would love to say Leslie Jones should be John McClane. She would be amazing. I would love to cast Alfred Molina as Lucy McClane. I'm sorry. It's not an all-female reboot, but I think he really is a chameleon, and he could make it work. He could be Holly.

He could be the husband. Ooh, yeah. Just tossing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He'd be like, what was her job? I am business. I'm a negotiator.

And then he'd be like, actually, my last name's Molina. I love this. That's a good one. That's fun. That's great. Wait, did we miss any other major parts?

That was everybody, right? Who's Argyle? Argyle. Yeah, who do we want to put? We're posing them as the breakout star of our all-female rubit of Die Hard.

Kate McKinnon. Kate McKinnon. Or that Shroshi Raynard. What's her name? You know the one from Lady Bird. How do you pronounce that? Shrosh.

Shroshi. The unpronounceable. You want to say series, but it's not. It's Irish. Siri? Shoshi. Siri.

Yes. Hey, Siri? Shirsh? Will you be in this movie no forget it Demi Lovato Demi Lovato is our girl we couldn't say the other one

we couldn't do it amazing well let's let's rate it shall we yes let's rate the movie on our nipple scale

zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women I'm gonna give it one and a half because it's still very much a man's story populated with almost entirely men. You do see one pretty competent woman, but she's framed as like the wife and she isn't respected by her husband. And that's a whole storyline of the movie and she gets no screen time neither

does hardly any other women and it's not the feminist masterpiece we're all hoping for that we all felt so certain it was right i know but it doesn't get like no nipples because i do think that holly is competent although she is robbed in many ways of opportunities to do something more pleasantly surprised that it passes the bechdel test and does feature a competent female character for a movie that came out in 1988 so yeah i'm gonna say one and a half nipples for you giving your nipples to uh i'm gonna give one to hans and his bad accent and the half nipple will go to because we see his nipple I'm going to give it to

John McClane. There you go. I am going to give this movie oh this feels like too much but I'm going to give it two and a half nipples for all the reasons you described but I also think we didn't get to talk about this a lot but I do think that it's interesting watching an action hero

like John McClane almost universally fail when he tries hyper-masculine tactics to solving a problem. Like most of the things that actually work for John McClane are what his wife is really good at, which is negotiating. Like if Holly McClane, or Holly, sorry, Holly Gennaro, I'm so sorry. If Holly Gennaro was in the bathroom at the beginning of this movie, this movie would be 15 minutes long because she would have been

able to get them out of it without all the fucking show pony posturing that Bruce Willis has to do to be like I have to have a gun and there's a warning and there's a, like she had the skill set the whole time to resolve the whole movie and none of us would have had to see die hard um so i i do think it's interesting that john mcclain's character even though we are led to believe by the end uh does not intend to apply these lessons to

his life but he does learn the lesson that not only does his wife's skills have value and that not only does his wife's skills have value and that she has a lot of value, but that the skills make more sense than the hyper-masculine aggro cop tactics that he's been taught. So I think that there is a little bit there that I liked. So I'll give it two and a half. I'm giving two nipples to the baby Grinch. And I'll give a half nipple to Paulina.

Sure. Because she deserves more. All right. I'm going to give it one nipple. This is mononipular to me. And that is the word. I'm just giving it one nipple because it just didn't do what it should for women.

And my nipple is going to go to Argyle because he needs it. You know what I mean? He does. Someone needs to milk that man. Yeah. Oh, my God. Poor boy. But yeah, I mean, He does. Someone needs to milk that man. Yeah, oh my God. Poor boy. But yeah, I mean,

it's, yeah, for what it is, and you know, that whole thing about the five, in the five movies, their relation breakdown, that's why I'm also

giving it one because I'm remembering now. They do. They don't make it work and that's, you know what? Fuck them. Fuck them. Right.

You know? Holly should have just moved on. They should have gone to couple counseling at the very least. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, come on.

They didn't make it work? Well, guys, that's Die Hard. Lovely. That's Die Hard. Thank you so much for coming. Thanks for coming. Give it up for Aristotle. He's the best producer in the entire fucking world.

He's the greatest. Give it up for Debra DiGiovanni. Thanks, guys. Good crowd. She's the best. Thank you so much. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist

who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology,

swaps of different meds, but by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane, what we can do about it, and why we should care. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the President of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nickname Squeaky.

The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer this season on the new podcast Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad-free and receive exclusive bonus content by

subscribing to iHeart True Crime Plus only on Apple Podcasts.