The Bechdel Cast - Don't Worry Darling with Payton McCarty-Simas

Episode Date: January 29, 2026

On this episode that feels like an episode, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Payton McCarty-Simas talk about the movie that feels like a movie... Don't Worry Darling (2022). Here's the piece we mention, "Don’t Worry Darling Is Peak White Feminism (As Expected)" by Haaniyah Angus -- https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/dont-worry-darling-white-feminism  Follow Payton on Instagram at @paytplace and grab a copy of out her book, That Very Witch: Fear Feminism & The American Witch FilmSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze. Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop. What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe.

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On the Bechtarcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism. The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Becdell cast. Welcome to the podcast that feels like a podcast where we discuss movies that feel like movies. Because they are movies and sometimes it's not that complicated. No. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name is Jamie Loftus and we are the podcasters who feel like podcasters because we are

podcasters. This is the Bechtel cast, a podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies or just movies using an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechtel test as a jumping off point for discussion. But Caitlin, what the hell is that? I don't remember because I'm being trapped by an in-cell. Oh no. Well, it's a mediometric created by our best friend. Alison Bechtel first appearing in her comic dikes to watch out for in the 80s. It has since become a media metric that is used to determine

do women interact in a movie? And if so, do they talk to each other about something other than a man? Our version is, do two characters of a marginalized gender, have names, speak to each other, and is the conversation about something other than a man? Ideally, it is

narratively meaningful dialogue and not just throw away non-sternel. since this movie doesn't really have a problem with the Bechto test. It just has a problem with a lot of other stuff. I'm very excited to talk about this movie. Yes, this was a movie that when it came out, it's don't worry, darling. We're not trying to withhold this information.

Yeah, there's no big twist at the end. There's no big twist that the director, upon revisiting the press cycle, the director spoilers the movie in almost every interview, which is wild. She's like, yeah, so I base Chris Pine's character on Jordan Peterson. I'm like, you really should not have said that. That's like, that ruins it. Anyways, I don't even remember what I was saying because this, it's just, this movie is so silly. Oh, this is a movie that we got a ton of requests for when it came out.

And we've been trying to, for the most part, not cover movies right when they come out because it's hard to have any sort of objectivity, especially when a movie was as disgust to death as this one was. Oh, yes. But it feels like it's been enough time. and also we have an incredible guest. So let's get them in here. They are an author, programmer, and film critic. And their new book, That Very Witch, Fear Feminism and the American Witch film is something that you should get and read. I'm halfway through it. It's terrific. It's Peyton McCarty Seamus. Welcome. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk about this real go-to-the-theater movie. Oh, my gosh. We come to this place for movies that feel like movies. We come to this place for discourse.

So first of all, tell us about your book. Yes, please. Absolutely. So basically, this book traces the evolution of the witch in horror films as a vector for the state of feminism at any given point in time in history, in America specifically. So as I go through, basically, basically, what I do is I give you a little bit of a history on the politics of the moment, a little bit of the history of the feminism in the moment, the history of the cinema of the period, and then I tie all of that together through the witch films of that particular era. And what I figured out was that, well, you know, witches have always been a symbol of feminism, but at peak feminist

activism in America, at these moments like the 60s and the 2010s, witches in the horror film are depicted as super powerful, which is, you know, intuitive in a certain sense, but how they're depicted as powerful changes and can tell you a lot about what's going on. And in moments of backlash, something else very interesting occurs. So I researched this book for a little over half a decade, and it was basically my therapy for where we are. When the election happened, I didn't really have to change anything. I emailed to my editor and was like, I'm going to add two sentences and then we're ready to go. So it definitely helped me figure out how we got here. But it's also, I hope it's a fun time, you know, so. Oh my gosh. So yeah. Can't confirm. It absolutely rocks. Thank you for

writing it. And it looks also just like, I don't know, I was like, that must have been such a fun book to research. Oh my God. It was such a blast because you get to, you know, it's like the arc of American history, right? So I got to spend a lot of time like rocking out in the 60s and learning about in the CIA and then, you know, you go to the 80s and you're thinking about like punk subcultures and yuppies and the 90s, you've got riot girl. It was, yeah, it was a complete blast. That rocks. Amazing. Thanks. We come to this place to discuss the movie, don't worry, darling. So a follow-up question, different question. What is your history with this movie? I know it's pretty recent, But no, yeah, when we were talking about what films to discuss today, I saw that was an option.

And I was so excited because this movie made me so just flamingly livid when it came out. Like I was, I was all there. I was all in, right? Like, I love, I just wrote a piece. This is going to, I promise this will make sense. But I just wrote a piece for Roomorg this year called Bois. It's All Connected about a fake genre that I made up. of like particularly conspiratorial kind of new agey movies typically about men right and like whenever

i see a woman making like a 70s inspired parallax view type movie i'm there i'm like let let let us do gropewa you know um but then watching it it's so failed in its politics it's so boggles the mind and and it has so many script problems like it's it's it's failed top to bottom so I was so pissed and I was excited to just take it down. But rewatching it from 2025, it really felt like more in sorrow than an anger. Like there's so much here that speaks to the moment that had the potential to be really salient. And I think even some of the angles that frustrated me the first time, I actually found like some potential poignant, particularly in the wake of the Charlie Kirk thing. So I think there's so much to unpack here. I'm still pissed. I am still pissed. But it's like,

It's like pissed because I'm disappointed. You know, I'm angry and disappointed. Fair. Yeah. No, it is so funny for a movie that is like ultimately, I also am like, let women make B movies. Like, but I feel like it was hard to not have a very particular relationship with this movie. If you were remotely plugged into pop culture at the time, you could not escape it. And it was interesting, even just three years later, because of the rate that, um,

society is deteriorating, I guess, that you're like, the criticisms I had three years ago are some remain consistent, but there's also, yeah, like you're saying, Peyton, things I feel a little gentler on now. And then things that I'm even matter about then when I saw it the first time. It's interesting. Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie? I saw it. I saw it in theaters and I was like, well, I did not like that at all. But, but I mean, I do think, like, I don't know, I think that the more recent example of this that is far darker is this is a movie who I think for most people who are like keeping eyes on it at the time like has a more famous press cycle than a plot. The press cycle for this movie was absolutely inescapable in a way that it seems like only helped the movie's box office a little bit. I think the darker version of that was last year, two years ago with the like Blake Lysk.

Lee, Justin Baldoni of it all with, it ends with us. Yeah. And then you have press cycles like, wicked, where nothing went wrong, but you're like, what the fuck happened? And that's just fun. So I was like, I think, like, I was going to see this movie either way because I enjoyed Book Smart. It was a fun little movie.

It was nice to have a, whatever, rising comedy director who was a woman, which is something that still is pretty rare. And yeah, this movie really just like does not come together. in ways that are infuriating sometimes and like funny it's just like this movie's like very naive in a lot of ways um like if someone explained white feminism to an alien which could have been what happened who knows um yeah i basically uh my definitive statement here is that the second like there's a one of many profiles of olivia wild around the time this movie came out was her saying explicitly, the inspiration for this movie is the feminine mystique, which makes so much sense

because the feminine mystique is a valuable famous text that only concerns itself with the white middle class, which is very much what this movie is. And it feels kind of like a semi, like not really a coherent criticism that also feels both early and late. It's weird. This movie's a weird one. That's what my, that's what I have to say. Caitlin, what's your history with this movie? I didn't see it in theaters. I saw it maybe like six months after it had come and gone from its theatrical release. And by that point, I had heard all of the, all the reviews that were not favorable of this movie. And all the people just being like, that sucked so bad.

That was trash and blah, blah, blah. So I went in thinking it was going to be like incoherent drivel, which I don't think that's the case. obviously I think that it has a lot of problems and it falls short in the commentary it's trying to make. But I was expecting like really incompetent filmmaking. And I was like, oh, it's, you know, it's basically the plot of the Stepford wives. But, you know, it's, it's not horrendous. But I also wasn't watching it specifically through a Bechtelcast lens. Right. That first time. And now rewatching it, which I was like, oh, God, do I have to for this episode? I noticed many, many more of the problems.

And I'm excited to discuss. So let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the recap. In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze. Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop. What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said, I need you to tell me exactly what. what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off.

You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband. So keep this secret for so many years, he's like a seasoned pro. This is a story about the end of a marriage. But it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark.

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Listen to broken play with Nav Green from the Black Effect Podcast Network On the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcast This is Writer Strong And I have a new podcast called The Red Weather It was many and many a year ago In a kingdom by the sea

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I've decided to go back to my hometown in Northern California, interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists, whomever I can, to try to find out what actually happened. Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods and not the obvious boyfriend? They have had this case for 30 years. I'll teach you sons of to be it to come around her in my wife.

Boom, boom, this is the red weather. Listen to the red weather on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The moments that shape us often begin with a simple question. What do I want my life to look like now? I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford. And on therapy for black girls, we create space for honest conversations about identity,

relationships, mental health, and the choices that help us grow. As cybersecurity expert, Camille Stewart Gloucester reminds us, We are in a divisive time where our comments are weaponized against us. And so what we find is a lot of black women are standing up and speaking out because they feel the brunt of the pain. Each week, we explore the tools and insights that help you move with purpose. Whether you're navigating something new or returning to yourself. If you're ready for thoughtful guidance and grounded support, this is the place for you. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And we're back. Shall we get into the plot? And Peyton, feel free to jump in whenever if you have a pressing thought, which this movie is so many. I have so many intrusive thoughts about this movie. And I was like re-remembering the Harry Styles meme. of his acting, which isn't as bad as people said, but it's not good. Okay, that too. Everyone was like, he gives the worst performance ever, and I was just like, it was fine.

He gives a performance. He's trying his best, it feels like. I know, I was like, am I coddling him? Yes. Which, like, you know, girl boss sleigh, you can, anyone can put their younger, attractive bow in the movie, you know, like, the ingenue of it all was really good. I was, it was kind of funny where I was like, okay, for Olivia Wilde to some extent, uh, she's like girl bossing OSHA violations.

She's like, women should violate HR contracts too. And you're like, yeah, yeah, exactly. I also forgot about it. Do you guys remember the spit thing? I just was like, oh, yeah, having all of these like things that I thought I would never have to think about again. And here we are talking about spitgate in the year 2025. Here we are.

I'm so convinced that like that was a glitch in the Matrix. Like we're all living in don't worry, darling, because that was the media simulacrum that broke. And like that's just every day in this universe now. Like you can just AI that actually having happened if you want to. But like, oh man. There's so many funny parts. Harry Styles looking ugly is hilarious. Like it's just it's great.

It's great. That wig. It's camp. This movie is, I feel like we, well, we just covered a movie neither of as it's seen before yesterday, the devil's advocate, which I feel like has a lot of similarities plot-wise and also how campy it is because it's so deeply sincere in what it's trying to do. This movie is really trying to define feminist thriller, and it doesn't, and that's kind of why I feel a little like, oh, I like, I don't hate it.

This could have been a cult classic if it were any better or worse. Like I kept thinking about Zardot. You know what I mean? Like, if it weren't mostly medium close-ups and if the Mcuffins were either a little bit we're either a little bit better explained, we could all like cherish. Don't worry, darling. Yeah, like really go for it. Like, we need Girl Ed Wood.

Come on. Yes. Yes. Okay, here's the story. It is the 1950s. Or is it? We think it is at first. And we meet a young married couple.

Alice and Jack, played by Florence Pugh and Harry Stiles, as well as their friends and neighbors who are other married couples, Bunny and Dean. That's Olivia Wilde and Nick Kroll. And then there's Peter and Pegg played by comedian pals of ours, Asif Ali and Kate Burland. And they all live in a cul-de-sac. I was calling them the cul-de-sac crew to borrow a Cougar-Town reference. Really? Wow. I never watched Cougar-Town. Oh, yeah. I, I, watched it, I would say against my will, but kind of like, it's almost like I was put in a simulation against my will to watch Cougar Town. So true. Anyway, so they live in what appears to be a typical American suburb at first, but then we realize it's this small isolated community called Victory

in the middle of a desert. And all of the husbands work for something called the Victory project, which is some company or entity doing vague classified work. Which not for nothing. Do we ever figure out what they're doing? They call it the development of progressive materials. But it's like, but like what are they? Well, that's one of the biggest problems with the movie is that it's just a red herring. Like it literally is just a red herring.

They go do normal jobs in real worlds. Right. And they set it up like, what's the victory project? And I guess theoretically, the victory project is the spoiler of the movie, like, in the real world. But ultimately, it's so dissatisfying because they don't do anything with that. And it also felt like the development of progressive materials was supposed to be like a real deep commentary. Like the women are the progressive materials. But like, eh.

You're like, yeah, they're so, like, I kept writing down, like, Florence goes to touch the plot stone. so that the plot can continue. Yeah, that was under one. One of the many kind of, that was like one of my least, there are some red herrings that are so funny to me. Like the Gemma Chan fake out, I'm like, what do you mean? Oh, I have a whole skill about that. We're like, for what?

For what? It doesn't make any sense. Sorry, we'll get there. I like seized. I've been wanting to talk about that since the movie came out. I'm ready. It's, it's her turn now. sure to me it felt like the work they were doing was like nuclear weapons manufacturing coded

I think that's like what we're supposed to think but again it's just a red herring who knows yeah so that's what the men do the women meanwhile live very typical 1950s white American housewife lives we see alice cooking and cleaning with a smile and a dress and her hair done perfectly. And she and Jack are also very horny for each other. And they're constantly having sex. Yeah. But soon, Alice starts noticing some weird things.

Iconically, the eggs aren't eggs. You're like, so many of the like thriller imagery is just so like it cracks me up because it's so vague. Like you're just pulling on like things you're supposed to be. But don't you get it? her life and the eggs are hollow. But then she cooks the eggs. And then she's like,

the eggs aren't eggs. Minutes later, they were in fact. They're different eggs, I guess. Oh, man. I love when the eggs aren't eggs. I watched, I kept rewinding it and making Grant watch it with me. I was like,

one day we're going to wake up and the eggs aren't going to be eggs anymore. And what are you going to do? And wow, makes you think, the sound design on the egg cracking scene was also unlike, you did too much here, whoever did that. But anyway.

How else are you going to know? that the eggs are nuts. But they're not. The eggs are next. And Florence is acting the hell out of that scene. Oh, yeah. Poor Florence is trying so hard. And all of the dialogue is so bad.

And she's holding this thing together with her little oven mitts. I swear. She really is. I think like her performance is genuinely good. Like she's selling me on this like I'm, I'm also confused, Florence. What is going on here? I wish we knew. So yeah, we get some weird things such as the eggs aren't eggs.

She's seeing some quick flashes of things that she doesn't know what they are. She's constantly humming a song that's stuck in her head, but she doesn't know what the song is. And something is going on with her neighbor, Margaret, played by Kiki Lane. Alice sees her behaving weirdly. Then everyone goes to a party hosted by Frank, played by Chris Pine, and his voice. wife, Shelley, played by Gemma Chan, and Frank is the founder of the Victory Project, and he's giving a speech about how awesome it is, but Alice's neighbor, Margaret, interrupts to be like, why are we here? What is going on? And she's pulled out of the party, and Frank brushes it off, and then some of the

women gossip about Margaret, and we learn that they used to be friends with her, until she quote unquote lost her mind and took her young son out into the desert where he apparently disappeared. Then one day, Alice is feeling restless. She has less pep in her step as she's doing her household chores. So she goes out and takes a ride on the local trolley and she witnesses a plane crash in the distance by the Victory Project. headquarters. Would you like to know what that means? Well, you're never going to find out. We don't know. Well, you're never going to get it. But the driver won't go out there to the crash site to help because there's this whole thing in victory where everyone has to stay in town leaving isn't safe. Right, because the simulation, there's also like another one of the thriller things where

we're like, uh, is there's occasionally like small earthquakes that are very normal for the I don't really know what that was. I think that was part of the like, are they testing nuclear weapons or whatever the victory project is? But it's her brain. Right. It's a simulation, right? I mean, if we go back to like screenwriting 101, like we're sitting down with notebooks and it's a college class, right? Like, one of the main questions that you have to ask in a script is why today?

Like, what is the inciting event? Why is this happening to her today? And like, why is she unhappy today? There is simply no reason. There's no reason this started happening. And that's one of the major problems with the movie is that there's no like real escalation and there's no motivation for her. She's just suddenly confused and discontented. And, you know, like the feminine, well, I have a whole.

Like, there are so many problems. But like she's not actually, because you were saying Caitlin earlier, like they live normal 50s housewife lives. But they don't. Like they live in a racially integrated, very. happy, very sexually fulfilling community, which is nonsense. And she loves it. And that's part of the politics thing that I'm sure will return to. But like, she has no problem with her life. And thus, the fact that she suddenly does, doesn't make any sense. Like, yeah. She's realizing that she's in the Stefford Wives, but it's not because she doesn't actually enjoy drinking martinis and playing

tennis. Like, which you need to have that, right? Like in the Stefford Wives, the main character is a photographer. And she's like, you're not letting me do my art or my work. And I, I hate that. But here she's like, I love getting head on my kitchen table. And also, I think something's wrong. Like one of the many things with this where I was like, why? Because we, whatever, if you haven't watched, don't worry, darling, then do or don't. Whatever. When people, our listeners don't complain about spoilers. But when people, I was like, you clicked on it. What it's not, what, anyways, when it's later revealed that Florence Pugh's character is a doctor, you're like, why could that not become plot relevant? Right. Why could there not be? Because theoretically,

with Margaret, there is a medical emergency. Why isn't there a part in the back of her head that is like, I know what to do? But the past version of herself has absolutely nothing in common with, like, there's no like part of herself rattling in the back of her head, which I feel

could have at least given you a why, right? Of like, oh, I know how to help. Like, why? And I don't know. There's just so many things this movie could have done that it doesn't. For sure. Whatever. So there's, so she's on the trolley, she sees the plane crash, and she ventures out into the desert on foot and ends up at

HQ of the Victory Project and has some weird dream vision thing. At the plot stone. At the plot building. And the next thing she knows, she wakes up at home and she asks Jack how she got there. And he's like, I don't know anything about that or about this supposed plane crash. You silly goose. Yeah, and then he does what Keanu Reeves also does in The Devil's Advocate. Well, it's not, I think it's like the beat after this. But he's like, I'm going to be extra nice to you so you don't notice something terrible is happening. Or let me get you pregnant.

I'm assuming that's what you want, even though she says she doesn't. Right. Anyways. Men always be trying to distract women with a pregnancy. Yeah, if I should be like, please have a kid that I will. See occasionally. Neglect. Yeah.

Okay. So then more weird stuff happens. For example, the walls of her house seem like they are closing in on her for a brief moment. Something compels Alice to put saran wrap around her head and nearly suffocate herself. I kind of dug that image as like a visual metaphor. I think in a better movie, I would have been like that cooks. Right. Here it just kind of feels like it's coming out of nowhere.

The aesthetic, I mean, this movie is. movie looks good. It looks good. Production design is solid. Yeah. Okay, so those weird things are happening. There are a couple more things with Margaret, including Alice seeing Margaret take her own life.

And Alice tries to run and help her, but two men in red jumpsuits come out of nowhere and drag Alice away. Which every single time reminds me of Monsters Inc. I can't see. men in hazmat suits and not be like which obviously monsters ink didn't invent that but to me it did and i'm not interested in further context They look just like the orderlies in her hospital, which made me think about that one episode of the Twilight Zone with the woman who thinks that she's already dead and she like ends up in the morgue in her dreams. But again, because she doesn't seem to have any relation to her normal life self, that image, I don't think read well. Right.

And my least favorite, my like biggest plot hole on the first viewing, which is this like talented doctor disappeared question mark and no one is looking. for her. Does she have a family that wonders where she is? She's probably 500 hours a week and people are like, well, I don't know. Like, what do you mean? Yeah, our top surgeon is gone, but they're the schedule, like the shifts are fine. Someone else will take it. Yeah. Did, right. Did Jack have to like fake her death so that no one would question where she is? There's a lot of world building that goes unexplored. But like, I don't know. At this point, I'm like, I'm laughing. Yeah, sure. Sure. Why not? Why not? It's feminism for this movie to say. suck. Yes. So Alice witnesses this traumatic event with Margaret and she starts asking Jack a bunch of

questions about his job and what the Victory Project is actually doing. And he gets furious and also does some very textbook gaslighting. And then the town physician, Dr. Collins, played by Timothy Simmons. Okay. Jonah from Veep. He comes by to examine Alice and she's like, hey, doc, what the fuck is going on? What happened with Margaret? But Dr. Collins insists that Margaret is alive and she just needs some psychiatric help. So she and her husband left victory. But Alice gets a sneak peek inside the doctor's briefcase and sees a file on Margaret, which is like mostly blacked out.

That made me cackle. Like when she opens it and it's literally. all redacted? Like, why are you carrying that? That's not helping you as a doctor. Right? And then she burns it for some reason. Like, wouldn't that be evidence that something is going on, that they're hiding

something and trying to cover things up? Why wouldn't she, like, hang on to that? Don't worry, darling. We don't know. Yeah. Exactly. If you have questions about this movie, just don't you worry, darling. Just remember what the title is. Yes. Just the movie. The movie feels like a movie. Harry was trying to get ahead of these criticisms.

It feels like a movie, but is it? But is it? Then there's a big Victory Project event where Frank gives Jack a promotion, but Alice still feels very distraught about everything that's been going on, and she tries to confide in Bunny, the Olivia Wild character, who turns on her and acts as though Alice, has lost her mind. The next night, there's a dinner party at Alice and Jack's house to celebrate his promotion.

And Frank shows up and approaches Alice privately to be like, I know that you're on to me. And I don't even care. Keep trying. And good luck with that. Another dynamic that has not paid off on in any way. Nope. No. On this rewatch, I actually really notice that in terms of the beat for beat of this movie,

there's supposed to be sexual tension between Alice and Mr. Chris Pine, Jordan Peterson. And there simply isn't. Like there's that earlier scene where she and Harry Styles are having sex and he walks in and watches. And then in all of the rest of the scenes, I think it's supposed to be like not only is he the moriarty to her homes with this totally out of pocket villain monologue, but also they're supposed to be having chemistry. And Chris Pine theoretically good casting choice absolutely failed. He's so flat. It's just not working. I didn't notice that at all.

I didn't realize that that was... Dude, I think when you look through it, because then at dinner, he basically implies that he and Alice have been having sex this whole time. And Harry Stiles is like, guess we won't address that one. But I think that would have helped the story a lot. Because if the metaphor is that this way of life is seductive for women, which is what I think is actually most salient to the present, like, let's talk about trad wives and the appeal. Let's unpack that, right? But if that's the idea, then the erotic tension between those two is essential. Because for me, my biggest issue with this movie is that it's having its cake and eating it too.

Where this is a movie where Olivia Wilde was both like, we're supposed to be exploring what it's like for women who are living in a system that actually works really well for them without actually unpacking how that system works. Like all of the paternalism is really benevolent. And all of these women are getting so much head. Like none of these women, like she said on a podcast when she was like, no man comes in this movie. And I'm like, okay, you're right. Yeah. Like that, that is how that works. Like, 1950s integrated non-racist America where the women are having orgasms. Like, the height report was not released until the late 60s. Like the idea that women had orgasms, generally speaking. Like, sodomy laws were still a thing. Like, this was not like, you know. It wasn't socially acceptable for women to come. Like, in our lifetime. Like it has it like it's just I don't know I agree with you like she I appreciate what she's trying to do it's kind of I mean in a different way because obviously Olivia Wilde Shonda rhymes different people but it reminds me of a lot of the criticism that you often see around Bridgeton

where it's like very nostalgic and like weirdly celebrating a very regressive time in the visuals and like all this stuff and like quote unquote corrects the past to make get more comfortable when it's like well but theoretically less so in bridgeton which is like really just turn your brain way down which is fine i watch it but like this movie is trying to be smart and it's like okay then well we'll talk about kiki lane's character margaret too because it's like yes i would be so curious what because kiki lane was publicly like when this movie came out because every every actor i think once florence pew went nuclear and showed up at wherever with the Aparall Spritz. Everyone was like, oh, we're allowed to talk shit about the movie.

Great. And Kiki Lane was like, all our scenes were cut. We had a storyline. Where'd it go? I'd be very curious what that was. I'm not confident that it would have been markedly better, but like this movie's refusal to engage with race in any way is so glaring. Well, this, her character is so racist.

Like, she's just the wise black foil to Florence Pugh. Like, there's that scene in the way. the dance studio where it's literally Kiki Lane looking sad and knowledgeable and Florence Pugh's staring at her in a way it's like this basically like reductive like the help levels of reductive for this character here. Right and like her body really like her dead body being like really harped upon in spite of the fact that we like we don't even have time to become endeared to this character like we don't know her at all. She is being used as like you're saying this very racist plot device. I would be curious what those scenes were.

I don't feel confident that it would improve what we're talking about very much. But it just like in a movie that is trying to say something about feminism, you cannot refuse to engage with race. That is like been at the absolute core that homophobia and transphobia have been at the core of the problems with every feminist movement ever. Like you have to engage with it. It makes me feel nuts. That's literally the problem with the feminine mystique.

Did no one tell her that? It's wild. And we can get into this later too, but the Margaret character was originally supposed to be played by Dakota Johnson. So it was originally supposed to be a white woman. And then they cast Kiki Lane instead, but like didn't do anything to adjust the story to accommodate that character now being a black woman. So like it's a mess. I don't know if I either of you have seen. I just saw after the hunt over the weekend.

Oh, not yet. I didn't like it, whatever, but like it, I feel like it has like kind of a similar issue where Iowa Debris is playing a college student who is allegedly, that's the whole point of the movie, assaulted by a white professor, but it does not engage with race in any way to the point where it's like distracting. Yeah. This movie has a similar problem. For sure.

All right. Where are we in the story? Oh, we're in the middle of this like dinner party. Alice confronts Frank at the dinner table in front of everyone being like, you're lying to us. We don't even know what the Victory Project is. What even is this place? Where does our food come from?

The eggs aren't eggs. Chris Pine, why aren't the eggs? And he's like, no comment. And she's like, you disappear people who ask any questions. And he's just like, shush, you silly little girl. and everyone does not like Alice's behavior, so they all leave. And Alice, realizing that she's in danger, begs Jack for them to leave victory for good that night. And he agrees, or at least he seems to, because as they're about to drive off,

the men in the red jumpsuits show up and abduct her. And it's clear that Jack is complicit in this. and Alice is taken to a medical facility, put in restraints, and given electroshock therapy, which prompts a flashback of Jack and Alice. Although it's not the 1950s in Victory, California, it's modern day, and she's a modern woman with a job even. She's a surgeon. Jack, on the other hand, is unemployed and resentful of her, and he spends his time. listening to this like men's rights podcast hosted by Frank and it's giving Jack some ideas.

We then cut back to victory. Alice returns home from the medical facility and she seems to be doing much better, aka she is once again blissfully ignorant of what's actually going on. And they go back into the routine of Jack going to work and Alice being a quote-unquote perfect housewife. But then Jack puts on a record and plays the same song that Alice has been humming the whole movie. And that triggers another flashback slash memory where we learn that the Victory Project is actually a fucked up black market computer simulation where people are hooked up and put into this world that we've been seeing,

this like idyllic 1950s community, and Jack has put Alice into this simulation against her will. We cut back to the simulation. And again, this song is triggering all of these memories of Alice in the real world, and now she fully realizes what's going on. And she's like, what the fuck, Jack, you took my life away from me, You've trapped me here, along with all of these other women who are trapped. This is the scene where I think the very funny Harry Styles acting meme comes from, where you can't, like, I can't, it's not a visual medium, but where he's sort of like, the vocal performance is there, but his face is sort of doing like the angry emoji.

It's cute. Well, it's funny because he and Florence Pugh can both make that same cartoon funny face. Yes. And they're making it at each other. in the scene. It's awesome. You're like, I don't like it. I don't think Harry Styles is that bad. I don't think so either.

Yeah. No. And then Jack becomes violent. So she strikes him over the head and kills him. Which means he dies in the real world too. Which will cause her no problems in the future. No, none whatsoever. She'll be fine. Yeah, don't worry.

The movie's about to just end abruptly. So it's all good. But first, it's my turn now. right well then bunny shows up and reveals that she has known all along that this is a simulation and she actually chose this life

because her children who she lost in the real world are with her in victory but now Bunny wants to help Alice leave and to save herself I don't know why this switch suddenly happened but Bunny is helpful now so Alice

gets in Jack's car and drives toward the headquarters, which actually is the like the plotstone. Exit portal. Yeah. It's the plot stone. She has to touch the plot stone. And literally when she touches the plot stone, the movie ends. You're like, so abrupt.

So she's driving out to this location. The men in the red jumpsuits are chasing her. Frank is freaking out because if Alice escapes back to the real world, theoretically she would be able to expose the victory project. But he doesn't actually, like, explicitly express that as a concern. And that was just, like, my head canon. But Frank's wife, Shelley, stabs him for reasons. It's her turn now.

It's her turn. Forge of a time fighting for her life in that scene. Because it's like you can sort of see in her eyes somewhere. I don't know what I'm saying either. Right. I just can't believe that Erica Kirk did that to Charlie Kirk. That's what happened. And it just happened to be her turn now.

But can we just talk, can we please? Because does that mean, does that imply she's going to take over simulation land? Does that mean that she wants a career? Does that mean we needed her to say something? Does that mean she finally found out that the Victory Project is what it is. And she's also. It feels like she's very much in on it. The whole vibe you get from her is that she knows, like, she's introduced visually as if she knows everything.

Right. But we actually don't ever really learn. about anything about it, I don't know, which is agonizing. Because like the in terms of going back to Olivia Wilde's character and the fact that this is ostensibly about the reasons that women become tried wives or participate in conservative misogyny, right? Like each character should have some element or thing that teaches you something. That's how scripts work. That's what characters are for. And so Olivia Wilde's character theoretically is like the lodestar of the film because she knows and she chose this and it's such a cowardly cop out to be like oh it's because of my tragic backstory and not

because i like martini's and hanging out with my husband you know what i mean like she's not actually fully leaning into it and then if you don't tell us why erika kirk is like this either then we get nothing which is why this movie is not good yeah right yes it's true so frank gets stabbed meanwhile alice is still trying to make her way to the exit she's being chased by all of the men in the community, but she finally makes it to the exit portal and then off screen wakes up in the real world and that's the end of the movie. Well, there's that little apple at the end though, where she's dancing on her own. It's flashes of her, she's fine, she's not sad.

Oh my gosh. I apparently stopped watching the movie immediately after it like fades to black because I was like, I can't handle another second of this. There is that little, don't worry, it's not anything that clarifies. No, it's just a don't worry, darling moment of like, she doesn't have PTSD. She can walk even though she's been bedridden and there are no legal consequences for the murder of her insult husband. She's good. She's good.

Right. And also, like, this is a world in which Jordan Peterson just died under mysterious circumstances. Right. Yeah, because we learn that if you die in the simulation, you die in the real world. So Frank, Chris Pines, dead in the real world. Well, let's ponder these questions and more after this break. In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze. Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop.

What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. and immediately the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband. So keep this secret for so many years. He's like a seasoned pro.

This is a story about the end of a marriage, but it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark. You're a dangerous person who prays on vulnerable. trusting people. You're invited or Michael Leavengood. Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. This is Ryder Strong, and I have a new podcast called The Red Weather. It was many and many a year ago in a kingdom by the sea. In 1995, my neighbor and a trainer disappeared from a commune. It was hard to wrap

your head around. It was nature and trees and praying and drugs. So no, I am not your guru. And back then, I lied to my parents, I lied to police, I lied to everybody. There were years right where I could not say your name. I've decided to go back to my hometown in Northern California, interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists, whomever I can to try to find out what actually happened.

Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods and not the obvious boyfriend? They have had this case for 30 years. I'll teach you sons of a bitch to come around. around here in my wife. Boom, boom, this is the red weather. Listen to the red weather on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This show contains information subject to, but not limited to personal takes, rumors, not so accurate stats, and plenty more. What's up, man, this is your boy now bringing from the Broken Play podcast. Look, it's the end of the season, the playoffs are here. But guess what? It ain't the end of your season. You can always tune in.

with Broken Play Podcast with Nav Green on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Not a team who ain't going to the playoffs. The cheese. What's a rap? It's time to rebuild. Who's your MVP right now, then? Drake May up there,

Josh Allen up there still. Oh, my boy, Matthew Stafford. Where did his phone Nick's at? He ain't too far behind. He did all this talk about. What Matthew Stafford is doing statistically, bro, is crazy. Bro, you know I ain't no Josh Allen fan, but Matthew Stafford got better weapon.

Caleb Williams. Hey, he should be in that conversation. In what conversation? He should be in it. Listen to Broken Play with Navgreen from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the Iheart Radio Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcast. The moments that shape us often begin with a simple question. What do I want my life to look like now?

I'm Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford. And on therapy for black girls, we create space for honest conversations about identity, relationships, mental health, and the choices that have. help us grow. As cybersecurity expert, Camille Stewart Gloucester reminds us, we are in a divisive time where our comments are weaponized against us. And so what we find is a lot of black women are standing up and speaking out because they feel the brunt of the pain. Each week, we explore the tools and insights that help you move with purpose. Whether you're navigating something new or returning to yourself. If you're ready for thoughtful guidance and

grounded support, this is the place for you. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And we're back. And we're back. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry, darling. We're back. I'm honestly, I'm worrying, darling. I'm worrying, darling. I don't feel good. If it's okay, let's start with, because we already sort of started talking about Kiki Lane's character. I feel like that's a good place to start because it also, like, we've been hinting at is, like, such a central issue with the movie of, like, this movies. And I think, like, again, this gets to this movie, I feel like is pretty clearly written in conversation with the Me Too movement. It's also why I'm thinking about it with after the hunt, even though after the hunt, like, I'm like, why is it coming out now?

It's been almost 10 years, whatever. But, like, again, I think what we've talked about pretty thoroughly on this show at this point is the failure. of that moment are sort of the failures of every feminist movement, which is that it is very myopically focused on how misogyny affects privileged cis white women, which it does. But like, when it, like, I don't know, yeah, like Olivia Wilde says that she's made this movie about complicity, but that's not true. like the movie has no criticism of Florence Pugh's character. Like we are, she is our final girl from Moment 1.

We are not really, we are just fully on her side the whole time. I feel like a better movie would ask the questions you're saying, Peyton. I don't know. It would be interesting to see a thriller movie interrogate like a lot of why these women are engaging with this world is because it's comfortable. And even when they're seeing other people be subjugated, they would rather ignore other people's subjugation than sacrifice their own comfort. Like that's an interesting thing to bring up. But it was just very dissonant, like looking back at the press junket for this outside of all of the like personal drama. Because it's like it just feels like the team keeps saying that they made a movie that like they didn't.

Yeah. I mean, I think part of the problem here, in terms of the nothing. and bolts, which I think we have to always start with with this movie for like why it's not working. It's like, why is my car broken? Like, why am I worrying, darling? I think part of the problem, I kept thinking about, did you guys actually watch Suicide Squad when it came out way back when? Which one? The first one or the second one? Yeah. The first one. No. Yes, I've seen it. Okay. Suicide Squad is a, is a nightmare mess for one reason above all others. And that's the editing of the movie. The first scene starts, the soundtrack starts, and every scene is cut like a

trailer, and the soundtrack never stops, and you get no access to any characters, and the pacing is brutal. And I think that, don't worry, darling, should have probably been two and a half hours long to get what they actually wanted from it, and the soundtrack never stops. And so you never get any, like, actual interiority or subjectivity from Florence Pugh, because 80% of the movie is a montage. So there's not even space to criticize her character, because she doesn't have a character, because she is a beautiful piece of window dressing, cleaning beautiful things, and having a really good time except when she's not. So that's really hard to make a nuanced critique out of. And like, that's not to say you can't have a montage that's very effective and tells you a lot. That's

actually what they're for. But when you do it like this, it just simply doesn't work. And there's also the element of like, you know, the elephant of misogyny in the room and the fact that they're too scared to actually show people being misogynistic. Like, yeah, right. Where there's that scene with Dita Vantes. It's the one scene where they're like, we're going to do some locker room talk. Like, we're going to actually show women being objectified and not just as housewives who also get to have sex. And even then, it's like so clean and nice and stylistic and like objectifying of Dita Vanties that you're still not. It's still too slick to let you be like, oh, the men are right, right. It's about boobs. Like, right. So that's a big problem. Yeah, I agree. There's so much

dissonance in Frank being the creator of the Victory Project, him being like Mr. Misogyny. He has created this whole simulation that's akin to like make America great again ideals. Like the good old days when men worked and women stayed home and cooked and cleaned. But it doesn't examine like MAGA ideals any like beyond that at all as far as like as racism as far as homophobia and transphobia, anything like that. And so we just see this world in which, like, the men are really nice to their wives. And there is, like, racial integration into this community that if this was the real, like, 1950s America,

black families would have been redlined out of a community like this. Right. I mean, it doesn't even have to be the 50s. Like Christian nationalists, they're trying to create that kind of community right now. It still exists. Yeah. It is interesting watching this movie with the, not benefit, but knowing that things continue to get worse. This movie did not in fact solve society like we'd hoped, which is the job of every single movie ever. And if it doesn't, I'm pissed. Especially if it's made by women. Yes. Then they have to. I do feel kind of bad that Olivia Wilde appears to be in director

jail over this. But which I do think what we've talked about on the show, this is a very flawed movie, but happens to women way more than otherwise. Oh, yeah. Women cannot direct a B movie. It's literally not allowed. Except for Emerald Finnell for some reason. Who knows?

Good for her. Because she makes bank every time. She knows what the girlies want and they want period sex. She puts butt in seats. Yeah, this is like a very common critic. of this movie, but it feels worth mentioning just because it echoes everything we've been talking about, which is like the dissonance of what Olivia Wilde, and again, also the writer of the movie, I always forget she did not write this movie, Katie Silberman, who also wrote Booksmart and a Netflix

movie called Set It Up. Did you know it was a spec script by Dick Van Dyke's kids first? Okay. Sorry, I have to take a detour about this. Yes. So Katie Silberman wrote the screenplay. but it was originally a spec script that I think was circulating on the blacklist, which was written by Carrie Van Dyke and Shane Van Dyke,

who are brothers and who are grandsons of Dick Van Dyke, and Shane Van Dyke wrote and directed Titanic 2. Stop. And so, if that's any indication of the quality of the storytelling. Oh, my. Well, it's always, I mean, that is very clarifying because you're like, Like, of course two guys came up with this story. It doesn't make any sense.

I love that. I also learned through just going back and back, clicking all the blue links on Olivia Wild's Wikipedia page. She's like, I would, she has like famous parents, but it's like not direct Nepo. Her parents are like famous journalists. Also, her name is Olivia Cockburn.

She changed it for maybe reasons you could guess. But her parents are Andrew. Leslie Cockburn, who in the 90s, like, wrote this very famous book about that basically, that is deeply critical of Israel and, like, did a lot of original reporting about the military relationship between the U.S. and Israel going back to the Nekba. So I was just like, well, that's interesting about Olivia Wilde's heritage. And her grandfather was like a famous socialist leader. And you're just sort of like, so it made me more sympathetic to her to be like, She's, I do think she's trying to get it.

But she's maybe just been famous for too long. And she's very white. Yeah, that makes me less sympathetic where she's like, you had the tools. Yeah, you had the master's tools and the master's house at your disposal at all times. Yeah. But the, the quote that actually I think sums up the whole problem with the movie was she was doing a Q&A. And she said that it was a really seductive lifestyle in the 50s and quote, Though I could kind of judge the lack of autonomy at the time, i.e. the 50s, it also seemed like a really fabulous life.

I mean, martini's for breakfast. Like, why not? So she just, like, is saying shit. Yeah. And the thing I was going to bring up is that, like, in the press tour where, you know, she was kind of like shooting yourself on the foot quite a bit. She was talking about how, like, men don't come in this movie. Women come. But then if you watch the movie, you're like, well, there's no consent being given. So why are there the sort of like long languishing scenes on like, isn't it cool saying Harry Styles go down on women? And you're like, well, sure, in theory. I guess the song, Watermelon Sugar is in fact about her. But the plot is that all of this is happening against the women's will. So like, and they don't interface with that at all. Like the movie refuses to engage with that.

So yeah, it just was very bizarre seeing this as, you know, making it out to be this movie of sexual, when the plot does not allow that. Florence Pugh appeared to kind of like push back on this framing. Also, she just hates Olivia Wilde. So maybe she's being petty here, but I think it's a useful quote. She said in an interview, when it's reduced to your sex scenes or to watch the most famous man in the world go down on someone, that's not why we do it. It's not why I'm in this industry. Obviously, the nature of hiring the most famous pop star in the world, you're going to have conversations like that, but I'm not going to be discussing it because this is bigger and better than that. So again, it does feel like not pushing back against norms by harping on non-consensual sex in your press

tour. Right. It just doesn't quite make sense. Like women coming, sure. But not in this movie. Well, it's true. Women don't come in this movie, canonically. Yeah.

If you come in the simulation, do you come in real life? Oh, that's true if you die. Yeah, do you do you, if you're sorry. Is Harry Styles coming in his pants in their dirty little bed? In their literal like in cell den. It's also, she's like, she's a surgeon. Why does their apartments suck? Anyways, that's what I noticed on this rewatch the most, actually.

Like, no, yeah, I think that the thing that I found most compelling in the wake of the Charlie Kirk thing that made me find more use, potential and failed use of from. this movie was the whole like, because, you know, conservative like tradcaths and conservative guys who follow Charlie Kirk, like one of the things that comes up all the time is a sense of economic decline and instability. It's like, you know, the all on a single income memes that circulate in those spaces, right? It's the sense that the economy is getting worse. The world is stratifying. And in order to fix that, we need to go back to a time and emulate a time when a man could take care of his family on a single income and provide for his family because that's, what masculinity is. It's being a provider, right? And this movie, I actually thought, because the first

time I saw it, I saw the stringy wig and I just cackled really hard and couldn't see past it or think about it at all. It's really hard. Where he's like, make me a sandwich, like baby girl. Put the wig in the Smithsonian Institution. That was the weakest camp. Yeah, the Academy Museum needs to buy that right now. But, however, I think the angle here that he felt that he felt that he could, couldn't provide for his wife and he felt insecure in his masculinity and literally bankrupts himself to provide this fantasy in the most perverse like serial killer way to ostensibly provide for his wife like speaks to something that's going around in the culture you know what I mean like there's something kind of poignant in a perverse and tragic way about the fact that he moves from their nice

apartment to a literal like den of an you know inequity to to do this yeah yeah like rather than be comfortable with his wife making more money than him. Like that is, it is wild to me how much we are still dealing. I mean, it's not surprising, but it's just infuriating in the day-to-day sense. But just how like, again, it's like there's interesting ideas presented in a very silly and weirdly and curious way. For sure. I mean, it reminds me of, you know, the conversation we had surrounding a recent episode and

movie that we covered, Companion, which has some. themes and vibes as far as like it's a man who he feels as though his masculinity is being threatened either by like modern feminism or specifically his partner and then he like does something very drastic to try to like make himself feel better and both companion and don't worry darling call attention to and start to examine this misogyn. and male fragility, which is important, but both movies focus on the plight of beautiful, thin, cis white women and the like individual liberation of one of them. Alice saves herself, but the movie ends before we get any sense of whether or not she would

go back and try to like liberate the other women. I mean, I think the post-credit scene indicates absolutely it's not. Right, the one that I did not watch at all. No, no, no. Yeah, like the movie doesn't care at all about collective liberation. It just cares about the liberation of this one woman. Which is like another classic, like, misstep of feminism is like a hyper focus on individuality or like your specific group. Although Flo doesn't even care about her group.

It's just a mess. I just had a thought and it's gone. Well, to go back to the Margaret character who's played by Kiki Lane, I would. wanted to pull from a piece in Refinery 29 entitled, Don't Worry, Darling, is Peak White Feminism, as expected by writer Hania Angus, says, quote, Victory is a simulation created by Frank to keep women locked away in captivity, and the severity of that idea is never fully explored. Frank's continuous chanting about regaining control of your life and wanting men to return to a time when everything seemed right is clearly tied to white supremacy and its relation to protecting

white femininity. The Incells Wilde is attempting to discredit are not just hurt men who need wives or women to have sex with. They are raging racists and bigots. And then the piece goes on to say, having Margaret die off to kickstart Alice's journey feels disgusting in hindsight, especially when you realize Lane has been snubbed from most of the films press run. cut from a lot of the film itself and barely even mentioned amongst the drama circling the movie. The film cuts back and forth from shots of her dead body in some poor sense of building up suspense and grief, but it just feels like it's taunting its viewers with how little it respects its singular black character who is pivotal to the story, yet had little to no screen time, unquote.

Because it's true. We, like, Margaret is like part of the catalyst that gets things, going for Alice. But she like ends up being basically like a glorified prop as far as the movie is concerned. For sure. We know nothing about her. Most of the time we see her. It's either like from another character's point of view like she's off in the distance or it's like the white women in the community gossiping about her. It's just like a really bleak characterization of the only black woman in the movie who gets any sort of dialogue, which is like two lines made. Maybe like next to nothing.

Oh yeah. It's something's not right. And that's it. Yeah. But they're both doing that and like refusing to acknowledge that the, the women in this story are racist. Like it totally skirts that criticism entirely. Like it's done. It just is like, okay, so the movie is racist because it is doing this racist thing.

And its characters are not even reacting. And especially Margaret. Yeah. It's just unbelievably frustrating. But knowing that it was supposed to be Dakota Johnson is really instructive, I think, because it just seems like they were going to just cast white people and let that be part of the thing. It's like it's very clear to me that this was written to be about all white people, right? Because it's the 50s.

I mean, the fact that they didn't have the fantasy, the in-self fantasy of the fact that all of these women don't have maids. Sure. even though they're existing in this very upper middle class context, feels like they just didn't want to touch it because that would have been hard and uncomfortable, right? But like these women, like if we actually want to, let's talk about the feminine mystique, right? Like the fun lifestyle they're describing, I'm trying to find a quote. I wrote a piece about this at the time. But the idea that like our lives are empty, all we have time to do every day. Yes, here's a quote from the feminine mystique.

my days are all busy and dull I get up at eight I make breakfast so I do the dishes have lunch do some more dishes and do some laundry and cleaning in the afternoon then it's supper dishes the children have to be sent to bed that's all there is to my day it's just like any other wife's day right but like they have time to do

that and have parties and go swimming you know like they just spend time at the pool and it's totally it's racist right it's literally erasing people like going off of your point patent it also sort of feels reminiscent of oh my gosh what was that Sophia Coppola movie

the Beguiled the Beguiled where she is remaking a movie that does have a black character that was racist at the time and she's remaking this movie and she doesn't know what to do with a black character so she just removes them and you're just like that is like the worst possible that you do

is to just refuse to engage and literally erase people which feels like a similar thing to do because she's not whatever the writer who I don't even know who I'm yelling at sometimes. Am I yelling at Olivia Wilde? Am I yelling at Katie Silverman? Am I yelling at the Van Dyke? Shane Van Dyke? I have no idea if I'm yelling at Shane. Maybe I'm... Maybe I'm yelling at Shane Van Dyke.

But like, the movie is not comfortable committing to having characters like Bunny be villains and having Gemma Chan's character be a villain. Because there's just these random girl boss solidarity moments added in

in the end that I think like jelled with what a good feminist does, but these people are not good feminists. So like what? It's so bizarre. It also feels worth mentioning, even though this is more behind the scenes drama. I also totally forgot about this.

The Harry Styles character was originally played by Shia LaBuff. Yes. Unfortunately, we've unfortunately had to talk about Shia LaBuff a lot in this show. But Shia LaBuff was publicly, credibly accused of abuse by FCA Twigs at the beginning of 2021, when this movie was in production. Right.

I believe we talk more about this in the episode on Holes. But yeah, Shia LaBuff left, Don't worry, darling. Seems like August of 2020. There are conflicting accounts of what happened. Olivia Wilde says that she fired him because he brought a combative energy to the set, that his work style clashed with the cast and crew.

She was trying to cultivate a safe space for everyone. and felt like he was putting that in jeopardy. Shaila Buff denies that he was fired, saying that he quit because he and the other actors were not given adequate time to rehearse and that Olivia Wilde wanted him to come back to the project, but he refused. We weren't there.

We don't know exactly what happened. What I do know is that I'm glad I didn't have to watch him in this movie, and I would rather watch Harry Stiles, any day. I'm also thinking, I was thinking about another movie in the Me Too women trying to talk about Me Too school, Blink Twice, which actually does have, you know, another messy movie, but like I do think women should be allowed to make these movies about this subject until someone gets it right. But, you know, with the Harry Styles connection of Zoe Kravitz being behind the helm of that one, that movie has a better, more nuanced depiction of like women who are completely.

implicit in the Gina Davis character. Yeah. They do kind of undo that because women don't seem capable of accepting that sometimes other women are villains. And that movie, I think, is just, it's my turn now, like the crazy girl boss ending of Blink Twice where it's like, you know, in feminist America, like, we enslave you. I'm Jeff Bezos now. And you're like, yeah.

I still got to watch that. And then it's like brought to you by Amazon movies. Oh my God, it's that and poor things has the same kind of ending. Oh, yeah, we talked with that too, yeah. It can be cathartic. It can totally be cathartic to flip the script and be like, and now the women are, you know, using men's buddies for their own amusement. But in movies that are ostensibly about feminist politics, like, that doesn't fly so much.

Right, right. It's just like, I don't know. It's, it was fun at first. I will say, like, I'm not above a good for her ending. Yeah. If it feels earned, I don't know. If it feels earned, why not? But this movie is just like, it just doesn't feel earned.

No, it does not. Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss? I don't think so. I was just worried, darling. We were not feeling also. I think my final thought on it is that we, the fact that Olivia Wilde is trying to be sympathetic to what you can kind of reductively describe as the median Trump voter, the conservative person who's feeling economic and cultural anxieties about their insecure position in a world that is

objectively getting worse on every level, particularly in a class-conscious way, I think is commendable. I think presenting, like trying to give some sympathy, you know, however perverse they may sound, to the what's now being referred to as the male loneliness epidemic of it all with Harry Stiles' character is interesting. And I found that way more engaging on this round in this current political climate, but she does so at the complete loss of nuance or coherence. And I think that we should really, we should all be worrying, darling, and we should all be trying to make a better version of this movie that includes people and lets people

be complicated. And let's Florence Pugh want to have her martinis at noon. And let's Harry Stiles be misogynistic. like textually as well as structurally, you know? Right. And we can do it. We can do better. We should make hard art. We should make complicated art. We should make

icky art. And women should do all of that. And I'm waiting and worrying, darling. And if you fail, it should not doom your entire career. Yeah. Does it count as a character being complicated if Olivia Wilde's character, Bunny, when she reveals that she is voluntarily in victory because in this universe, she still has her kids. But the entire movie, we see her not interacting with her children at all.

We see her yelling at them, not being affectionate with them. Instead, she's day drinking all the time and completely neglecting her children. Yeah, with no babysitter. Is that complex? Is that a complex character? It sort of makes you wonder, what happened to her kids? And was it a result of her negligence? Her fault? They're not real kids.

I can say that. I, yeah. No, that, and again, it's like, that is another little chicken nugget of like, oh, what an interesting potential thing to explore that's just like, at the very end of the movie. I don't know. Yeah. It's just, it's a mess, but I agree with you, Peyton. I think that this movie should, someone's going to get it. Someone's going to figure it out one of these days.

and it feels like, I don't know, definitely a moment. It is weird that this movie has both become more and less timely in the three years since it came out. Right. As far as the Bechdel test, it does pass. There are many scenes in which women are talking to each other about other women because they're gossiping or they're or at least one of them is questioning what's really going on with the victory project and da-da-da-da. So, you know, the movie passes, the Bechtel Test, but as we always... At what cost, exactly.

Exactly. But to move on to the perfect metric by which we examine movies, the Bechtelcast Nipple Scale, in which we rate a movie on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining it, through an intersectional feminist lens. I think I'm going to go two nipples. It is attempting to start to say something. The movie does have an agenda. It just feels like something that maybe would have come out in like 2012 instead of

2022. It just, it feels quite behind in its intersectionality and its ability to really thoughtfully examine. See, I kind of disagree. I feel like this is very 20-22 in its white feminism. Well, especially in Hollywood, certainly, where, you know, this is a mainstream studio movie made by privileged, rich white people. So, yeah, this is not going to be the radical leftist intersectional takedown of patriarchy and white supremacy that we'd love to see because Hollywood isn't really in the business of doing that, at least not at this time. So I guess what you're saying is that it feels like a real Hollywood movie, like a film movie.

Wait, what? Hold on. Someone says something like this once. Is it, is it that it's a, it's a movie that feels like a movie? Very underrated element of that clip is Chris Pine just shark-eyed, dead eyes in the background. he was so checked out on this press tour. It's funny, though, because that quote actually has become a staple since this movie came out of when I'm watching movies with my husband. Like, we will be watching a movie and he'll be going, it feels like a movie. And he actually did this forgetting that it came from this movie when we started watching this movie for this episode.

He was like, it looks like a, so it all circles back around. Wow, beautiful. Look, I was not a direct. But the Harry Styles appeal. I get it. I get it. Because he's just saying shit. He's saying shit.

He's minding his own business. He just ran a, he's like in incognito mode right now, except for fucking Zoe Crabbits, which he wants everybody to know. And sure. But he is like living incognito mode right now and ran a marathon under a fake name. Whoa. Caitlin, did we talk about this? No, we didn't.

Just a fun not passing the Bactylast thing. Yeah, he just, like, ran the Berlin Marathon under the name Sted Sarandos. Okay. Good for him. And he got a great time. So, you know, he's just, he's just chilling. He's doing what more absurdly rich people do, which is just being quiet. And, yes.

So you're going to. Oh, yes. Two dipples. For all the reasons we've previously discussed on this. episode and you know that I'm going to give my nipples to Shane Van Dyke writer and director of Titanic 2 my favorite movie of all time. We got a cover to JK, JK. But yeah, we really, oh, we, you know, we haven't done a Titanic episode this year.

And it's, it's not too late, but. It's not too late. Okay, okay. Something to consider. Yeah, two nipples to Shane Van Dyke. Two nipples to Titanic 2. Sure. It is more accurate.

I'm going to go one and a half, which is maybe a little, like, I agree this movie is trying to do stuff. I feel like, I don't know, I feel like I've been very inconsistent in this episode of like, it's just, it's a hard one. Because I feel like in general we are culturally still very hard on feminist art that does not completely like work. And I know I've been guilty of being overly critical of a movie that feels like a movie. But because this movie was really aggressively marketing itself as something that had something to say about feminism and having it sort of be this kind of cowardly white feminist. It's basically, you know, there's no egg inside the egg. When I see that's the central image of the movie. I was promised an egg and I was given a shell.

And so I don't really know. Like maybe that's a little too hard on a movie that does seem to be doing its best, but its best isn't great. but I agree with I'm going to be thinking about like we should keep trying we should keep trying to make this movie and we should give someone who is not already a wealthy white woman a crack at it

perhaps yeah so with that I'm going to give it one and a half nipples and I'm going to give half a nipple to the egg that wasn't an egg and I'm going to give my other nipple to the plot rock nice

Peyton how about you I think one and a half is right because this movie raised my blood pressure in such a specific way watching it fail. I think it's so compelling. And so in a certain sense, I give it like three nipples for like incurring my feminist rage and making me more conscious as a feminist in that moment. But I'm going to give a whole nipple to it's my turn now. Yes.

And then half a nipple to the wig. the hairstyle stringy wig You really have to love the wig They thought they were doing something with the wig I was just going to say The one thing we haven't mentioned Because you're so right about the egg as metaphor I was thinking like the title

Don't worry darling comes from an ad from the 1950s Where there's a woman in front of a stove And everything's burning behind her And she is a handkerchief And she's crying on her husband's shoulder And her husband says don't worry darling You didn't burn the beer And like that's how I feel about Olivia Wilde's

Making this movie being like Like, I love martinis. Like, well, don't worry, darling. You didn't burn the beer, you know? Wow. It's just, you know, we'll get them. We'll get them next time, question mark. We'll get them next time.

We worried, darling. And Peyton, thank you so much for worrying with us. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Thank you for having me. Of course. Come back anytime. I would love to talk which movies with you.

Hell yeah. Where can we find your work? You can find me on Instagram at Pate. place, P-A-Y-T, P-L-A-C-E. You can pick up my book or the previous one, which is about National Treasure and Conspiracy Theory, wherever books are sold. The National Treasure, the National Treasure with my cage. I'm going to steal it.

I'm going to steal the Declaration of Independence National Treasure. Oh, why, yes. There's so much. It started as a joke, and then it turns out the conspiracy theorists love National Treasure. And you would not believe the things I found. God. Really? Okay.

I will be purchasing. But yeah, amazing. I'm around. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us. And you can find us all the regular places, mostly Instagram, and you can follow our, or join our Matrion, which is our Patreon, where for $5 a month you can get two bonus episodes on a topic, on a very obscure topic of our choosing or yours. Don't worry, it's not a simulation. It's.

Wink. This is, no, Caitlin does actually have you strapped. in a room somewhere. The reason that we have to like have heart outs during our recording is so Caitlin can dribble something in my eyeball so I don't turn into a husk. Oh God, imagine if

I was a podcaster in the simulation, I would be so pissed off. Like if I'm in the simulation, I better have a martini and just be day drinking all the time. Truly. But yes, you can find us there. $5 a month gets you access to two new episodes a month

and access to hundreds of back episodes. episodes. Indeed. And with that, we can finally stop worrying, darling. Oh, thank God. And have a martini. Bye. Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of IHeart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork and all of our artwork in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh my God.

And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan. With vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski. Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze. Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop. What was on his screen would change. I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.

And immediately, the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband. Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, we always say New Year, New Me, but real change starts on the inside. It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same. attention you give your goals.

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