The Bechdel Cast - Elf with Mara Wilson

Episode Date: December 20, 2018

Jamie and Caitlin travel from the North Pole to the real world to discuss Elf with special guest Mara Wilson, and they discover that the patriarchy is still alive and well.(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @MaraWilson on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the bechdel cast hey it's caitlin and jamie and you're about to hear our episode on elf yes but first we just had a few quick plugs that we wanted to do at the top of the show starting with our next live show in los

angeles is january 12th i'm so excited guest danielle perez ever heard of her friend of the cast might remember her from our hocus pocus episode yes go back do your research so she's coming back and we're talking about romey and michelle's high school reunion i haven't seen yet oh my goodness i'm so excited for you to see it. So that's on January 12th at 9 p.m. at The Ruby. And tickets are on sale for that at Bechtelcast.com. And click on live appearances. And just a reminder that we have a live show in L.A.

every second Saturday of the month. At The Ruby. At The Ruby at 9 p.m. So mark your calendars and don't do anything else except for that and i think all of our regulars can attest because we do have regs join the fam it's a small intimate fun show we always hang after we bring exclusive merch what more could you want nothing more nothing um speaking of other live shows uh-huh there are still tickets left to some of our west coast tour shows in january yes so at the time of this recording we've got tickets left to our san

francisco show on january 20th that's a part of sf sketch fest we're talking about the breakfast club and there are tickets left to our show in portland on january 23rd and we're talking about uh fight club as well as uh the two of us are doing a stand-up show in seattle yes just the two of us just the two of us doing our stand-up comedy ever heard of it if you haven't you're gonna have to fly yourself out to seattle sorry yeah so that's on um january 24th and tickets for all of those shows are same place bechtelcast.com and click on live appearances and then um i would just like to plug a couple things that just i'm doing sorry jamie but like okay i know i'm so sorry but you know i'm running some screenwriting workshops can I come you can come yes I'd love

I would love to learn honestly um yeah if you want to learn from someone who has a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University yes I don't know what I'm doing but I would love to oh my god I'd love to teach you. Yeah. So if you want to come with Jamie to either the one I'm doing in Portland is January 22nd at 7 PM. And I'm doing one in Seattle on January 26th. I think that one's in the afternoon. It's a Saturday. Yeah. Come and learn from a master. And it's just like a crash course in all things writing for the screen so i love it i'll be there oh great um and more info and the registration links are on my website caitlindurante.com and then click on the shows tab you

can go to my website but it's mostly dead links and a lot of videos of hot dogs i i recently hyperlinked there my website is 80 the episode of how it's made for of various meats oh that sounds disgusting no offense but jamie loftus is innocent.com is the hyperlink for all of the meat videos great yes please just go there for fun anyway so those are the quick plugs we wanted to do at the top of the show that's my yule log the housemate episode for hot dogs anyways enjoy the episode yeah enjoy the episode it's a great one and uh we'll we'll see you soon i I'm going to tweet that. Okay. Bye.

Bye. The Bechdelcast. Hi. Hi, everyone. Thanks for coming to The Bechdelcast. Hi, everyone. My name's Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante.

And this is our show that you're at. was anyone here dragged by a loved one? Raise your hands. Oh, we got one. It always takes a second. They're like, Well, thank you for coming. By round of applause, who has seen the movie Elf?

Great. Everyone but me. Cool. Is there anyone by round of applause who has not seen Elf. Great. Everyone but me. Cool. Is there anyone by round of applause who has not seen Elf? Yes. All right. Allies.

There's always a couple. There's always a few. So we are the Bechdel cast. We talk about the portrayal and representation of women, among other things, in film using the Bechdel test as like a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation. And if you don't know what the Bechdel test is, first of all, shame on you. Second of all, I take it back. You're fine. What it is,

is it's a media test invented by Alison Bechdel that requires that there be two female identifying characters in a narrative that for us have names and they have to talk to each other about something other than a man for a total of two lines of dialogue. So if you've seen Elf, just think about that for a second. A lot of movies don't do this. They're not able to do what is truly the bare minimum yeah my favorite uh bad pass because i most like most media tests it is a flawed metric uh is the she's all that where one of the named female characters tells the other named female character to kill herself and the first one's like hey you're like technically it passes yeah really good one um so do we have any other orders of business that we need to attend to before we

introduce our guests i don't think so i skipped the middleman tonight uh you iced yourself i iced myself quietly backstage like a lady i just i, I said, you've been nice, and then I twisted the cap myself and got down to business. So I'm ready to go. Beautiful. Yeah. Well, without much further ado,

let's introduce our guest. She is a recovering child actor. She's a writer. She wrote the book Where Am I Now? And she has a newsletter called, Shant We Tell the Vicar? Please give it up for Mara Wilson! Hi!

Hello, oh my goodness, the audience is so close. And that is something that is completely wasted on the podcast audience because they can't see it. I hate when people do that, when they record podcasts and they'll be like, and then I went like this, and then they'll do something with their hand that we can't see and I'm just like, explain what you just did. So,

yes, so for those listening at home, the audience is close, but they're all beautiful people, so it's nice to look at you all. I do like the jarring nature of a room where you can make eye contact with everyone. Well, I get a good feeling from this audience. Yeah.

I get a good feeling. They're a receptive audience so far, and they're very smiley. So, yeah, this is good. Yeah, some good eyeballs. Yes. Because we can see you, too. So, Mara, tell us about your relationship, your history with the movie Elf okay well uh so I remember when I was 16 I thought that I was like highbrow by reading like Entertainment Weekly

and you know I was reading The Advocate a lot too I was reading like a lot of you know which is like a gay magazine I was really in the closet guys um and I was magazine. I was really in the closet, guys. But I was reading a lot about entertainment, and I heard that Elf was a good movie. And I knew that my family, we were going to go see movies over winter break, and my stepmother would usually choose a romantic comedy that I didn't like because I was a very cynical teenager. And somehow, being a cynical teenager, I still chose to see Elf.

I was like, let's go see Elf. I've heard that it's good. And for like a holiday movie, you know, maybe. But like, I feel like nobody in my family enjoyed it. And then like, we were really quiet on the way home. And I feel like everybody, I feel like my parents didn't like it. My little sister says she liked it, but she didn't seem to at the time. And I felt like everybody blamed me.

Like they didn't like the movie and they blamed me. And I remember being like, being 16 and being like, this is so stupid. So I didn't really think anything of it until a couple of years later. It's also probably worth mentioning that I grew up Jewish. So a lot of holiday movies, although I was actually in a Christmas movie and at one point in my life. And one thing I've got to say is if you ever have the chance to be in a Christmas movie or sing a Christmas song or something like that, go for it.

Because even if it's bad, they need stuff to like fill the air on TV and radio. So even if it's terrible, do it and you will still make money like it is a very practical thing working in a christmas working in the christmas industry you can say is a very very that is a very pragmatic move so um i didn't think much of it although i did see the broadway musical a couple years ago because I was babysitting in New York and the kids I babysat, their parents worked for theaters and so we got front row tickets to Elf,

the musical. And like, you know, you can think that like Will Ferrell does a lot in this movie, but imagine the actor who had to play Buddy for two hours straight. Like there was an intermission and sing and dance the whole freaking time.

Like, that guy, that guy is amazing. I wish I could remember his name. I am, like, still in awe of that guy. And not only that, but the kids I was babysitting with, they were, like, all dressed up to go to the theater, and they were sitting in the front row with me, and at the end, he bowed, and he bowed,

and he waved right at the kid that was one of the kids who was like front row center so like that guy has my heart forever like like will ferrell you're great but like this is the true buddy in my head but uh i watched it again the other day and um it's not my favorite movie and it's not my favorite christmas movie but i was like okay i get what they were going for now i'm not like i'm not a cynical teenager anymore. And there's also a lot of actors in it that I like. So I was just kind of like, okay, this is kind of cute.

There's also things that really, really have not aged well or even were kind of weird at the time. But I imagine that we are going to get into this. So that is my long protracted relationship to Elf, which I thought I didn't have much of a relationship with it but i just talked for five minutes straight so i guess i do i i just want to give a shout out to the guy who played spongebob on broadway now god right because he had and what ethan slater yes bless you, theater kid. God bless you. I get you.

Shout out to Ethan Slater. He, first of all, is hot, which is confusing. Whoa, is he? SpongeBob shouldn't be hot, but when he is. Yeah, wow. It's crazy. Not as hot as Squidward, but that, I have a whole. I have a power ranking that you can approach me afterwards if you dare. Wow.

But SpongeBob, I mean, he climbed up a two-story set in the third song, and then he has to still be SpongeBob, but he has muscles. It's great. I know somebody who was in SpongeBob the Musical, and she also has limitless energy, so I feel like that kind of makes sense. That's kind of what they go for.

I love it. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. I feel really bad, though, because I'm just like lauding this guy, but I can't remember what his name was. Well, just get your kid. Everybody.

I'm a fun-fun kid. Go home and Google Buddy the Elf in musical in 2011, 2012. 2011. Yeah, everybody do that and then find him on Twitter and be like,

Mara Wilson says you're awesome. Don't do that. Do that if you if you are so inclined uh jamie what's your history and relationship with the movie i feel like this has happened to me with a lot of recent movies where i thought i'd seen the movie but i actually hadn't and i had just seen a lot of t-shirts and had heard a lot of people say you've seen that i'd i think i just like through years of lying convinced myself i had seen it i had i had the same issue with nightmare before christmas where i was like nope just been to a hot topic uh i don't know what store this movie is associated with so i don't have quite the same zinger, but it is the same problem.

Yeah, sure. I don't know. It's weird, because I was like the perfect age to see this movie when it came out. And I don't know what my mom's problem with Will Ferrell was exactly, but what she told me, because I remember asking to see this movie,

because we were festive you know we were like we would see stuff one of those festive families one of those fun festive families I was like mom can we go see elf and she was like you know how I feel about that man but her thing was too tall I was like what she just was like but i there must have been a real reason but she would just be like too tall we're not going yeah my mom my mom really didn't like uh an american tale for some reason i don't know why and maybe maybe she felt that they were like clearly jewish characters but they were like christian washed into it because there was like a fievel the christmas mouse story or something i kind of got that feeling uh but she told me she i was like i want to see fievel goes west but she really

didn't like an american tale and she said no we can't see that it's it's going to be too gory and violent i love a good mom excuse yeah right when you're later you're just like oh you just didn't want to go yeah it makes way more sense exactly so i just saw it today great yeah uh i saw it when it came out in the theater possibly i can't remember but within at least a year of it coming out i didn't exactly remember how i felt about it except that the other day you know when like netflix dvds were popular and you would like rate what you thought of the DVD that you got I just saw the other day that I had rated Elf one star out of five so apparently I absolutely hated it when I first saw it because I didn't re-watch it at any point until just a couple days ago and um I don't like it but I have really good reasons and I can't like it. But I have really good reasons, and I can't wait to tell you them.

Wow. So shall I do the recap? Yeah. Kayla's Famous Recap. All righty. So, okay, well, first of all, okay, a story about a naive guy who comes from a different part of the world and who longs to be accepted by a new family. What is this, Paddington?

You saw that coming from a mile away that time. Okay, so we learn about elves in the North Pole who build toys for Santa. They work in Santa's workshop. And one Christmas, while Santa is delivering presents at an orphanage, a baby crawls into a sack of toys and he accidentally takes the baby with him to the North Pole. The baby remains silent for the entirety of the rest of the trip.

That bothered me. One of the elves adopts the baby. His name is Papa Elf? Hot. Hot. What if you're just like hi my name's daddy no i'm single i have no children i liked that and the baby gets named buddy and he grows up to be will ferrell and um

he's he's not like the other elves. He's tall. And he's not as good at making toys. And he eventually learned the truth that he is a human whose mother died and whose father is this big shot publishing guy in New York City. So right off the bat, we have a weird Disney princess vibe about Buddy where they're just like, mother character, we're not going to want to bother with that. Let's get to two men in conflict as soon as possible. So his dad didn't even know that Buddy existed. So Buddy sets off to New York City to find his dad. Which, by the way, they like, they like don't, I feel like it's still

really taboo to have, to have somebody like have a child when they aren't married in movies. Have you noticed that? Like there's still, there's still this thing or they don't, they'll have like a single parent in it, but they won't ever. And they really like didn't touch on the fact, you know, it's a family movie, but you know, you never knew that she existed. They never, the way that they touch on that, I think is really interesting interesting it's like very specifically avoidant of like these people had sex and they were really young and she decided to keep the baby but didn't communicate like that's that's like a complicated thing right to to you know but they're trying to keep it like that's still such like a for some reason it's still like a taboo subject, I think. In a PG movie. And it totally ignores the concept of,

well, she probably didn't tell him for a reason. What if he's a bad guy? I don't know. And then you keep seeing the same picture of her, but he's always longingly like, I wish my toxic father would spoon me. But you're like, but that doesn't make sense. But a woman has died, Will Ferrell.

What are you doing? Buddy sets off to New York City to find his dad and to find himself. Cool. Sorry? Okay. But the only world that he knows is the elf world, so he shows up in the city.

I forgot that part the walks he walks does he walk through canada well how is he not cold and dead he also gets attacked by a raccoon uh-huh do you do elves get like inoculations against rabies like the ones that you give to your cats and dogs he also survives entirely on sugar yes Like, how is he not dead? What do the elves know that we don't about health and longevity? Maybe that's why they keep the whole thing a secret, because they're afraid that they're going to, like, get, you know, taken over for their secrets.

Right. Well, at one point he says that his daddy elf is, like, 400. He's like, it took him 490 years to figure out how to make blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, they've got, like, the elixir of life up there, I think. It's kind of frightening and amazing. Yeah, it's freaky. It's Christmas magic. Oh, right, that's it.

That's their untapped resource. Their renewable resource is Christmas magic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he shows up, and he's naive. He's still dressed as an elf, and he thinks life is all about like hugs and candy canes and rainbows and a lack of knowledge of boundaries yeah yes so he shows up at his father's office but his father walter hobbs played by j Caan. He's like, get out of here. I don't have no son. He's mean.

And he's on Santa's naughty list. So that's why he's like, screw you, buddy. And then Buddy goes to a department store and he's all like, oh, I'll fit in here in Santa's like whatever like North Pole station they set up. Yeah, he's basically at like Macy's or something. And they mistake him for being an employee there, so he just

seamlessly integrates into that community. And that's where he meets Jovi, which is Zooey Deschanel's character. Zooey Deschanel without b-b-b-bangs? It's confusing! I know. And she works there

as an elf, and Buddy hears jovi singing a song baby it's cold outside not just anywhere it's in the shower she's in the shower we will we'll talk about it there's not time to get into it here my blood went cold yeah so santa comes into the store buddy's like you're not the real santa they get into a fist fight buddy gets a restraining order filed against him and then we meet um walter's wife and son and we learn that maybe walter isn't the most like attentive family man but he does bail buddy out of jail and he's like let's get this paternity test let let's get this figured out. Turns out Buddy is his biological son, so he brings him home.

That paternity test takes like two seconds, by the way. So fast. I think there's a missed opportunity for a really good Maury scene there. That would have been nice. There really was, yeah. I think he would have done the cameo no problem. Oh yeah.

Yeah, it's a shame. The director played the doctor though, so maybe he was like, yeah. Yeah, Jon's the doctor. That's true. Yeah. It's a shame. The director played the doctor, though, so maybe he was like. That's true. So Walter is not happy about Buddy being in his life. Also, his brother, Michael, who's like, I don't know, 12 or something like that, is also not pleased. But then there's a snowball fight, and then Michael's like, oh, wait, Buddy's cool.

And then he encourages Buddy to ask out Jovi. Yeah. um and then he encourages buddy to ask out jovi yeah very like uh the the like suddenly a 12 year old knows how adults work he's like oh are you trying to get it in with so you're just like ew you're 12 please stop later on walter takes buddy to work with him sends buddy to like the mailroom because walter's like trying to fix this problem with a children's book at this publishing company and he brings in miles finch and miles finch is a little person who buddy mistakes for an elf and miles understandably gets upset and storms out first he kicks his ass he kicks his ass. I was going to say, he kicks his ass.

He kicks his ass. And that's Peter Dinklage, by the way. Peter Dinklage kicking his ass. Right. A very satisfying scene to watch. He extremely wins that fight. So then Walter's furious. And he's like, buddy, get out of here.

I don't care where you go. Just leave my life. And then Buddy runs away away and then michael comes in he's like i'm scared our son buddy ran away and this is all happening in the middle of this big pitch meeting and then walter has to decide to like is he gonna choose his career or his family guess what i've chosen family this is all happening on christmas eve by the way santa is out delivering presents but there's no christmas spirit because buddy has no sense of belonging anymore i guess i don't know there's a lot of third act, like, sure, yeah.

Something about the sleigh isn't happening. It's powered by Christmas spirit, but nobody in New York believes in Christmas anymore, or something. Right, and everyone watches the local news at the same time. You're just like, yeah, sure, whatever, we just gotta get this sleigh in here.

And everybody gets to the same spot in Manhattan within five minutes. Yeah, my friend pointed that out when we were watching it. He was like, everybody's just there. Like, you know, oh, I came as soon as I heard. And very much like an improv scene,

just leaping in. Like, oh, you know. It was good. And then the second that Dad sings, the plot's resolved and Santa can fly. Oh, yeah, because singing, singing's the power of music or something.

Yeah. Is it like Christmas cheer? Something, something, Christmas cheer. The best way to spread Christmas cheer is singing loud for all to hear. Or something that rhymes better. Which I hard disagree. So Buddy's all like,

I gotta save Christmas. And Michael and Walter show up to help. There's a guy who is actively harassing a reporter. And he's like, you have a really nice mouth. Oh, also the other newscaster is harassing that reporter. He's like, sorry to interrupt your first big story, you dumbass, but I'm gonna talk now. And then it cuts back to her and someone is harassing her.

But then it's so weird. The trajectory of that female newscaster for the few times we see her, we're just like, who are you? Because it's like, she's reporting the story, cut away to her boss who was like, don't listen to her. Then we see her with Michael,

Buddy's little brother. And then he's like, all you wanted for Christmas was for your boyfriend to propose. And then he's like, all you wanted for Christmas was for your boyfriend to propose, and then she's like, stop the cameras, and she screams at a child. I don't know where I land on this lady. So basically after that, Jovi's like, oh, we got to get Christmas cheer up and running again, so she starts to sing even though she doesn't like to sing in public but then everyone joins in and then the sleigh starts to

work and then christmas is saved and then like the denouement of the story don't worry i have a master screen screenwriter oh my god i feel ill the family accepts him now. And he wrote a children's book about himself. Self-indulgent. Hello. Way to blow your load on one thing. How the hell are you going to follow that up? Yeah, he should have made it a series.

Yeah. Idiot. And then he and Jovi get married I guess and have a baby and then they go to visit elf daddy and that's the end of the movie Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th

2017 was murdered there are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden.

We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice.

And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss a hundred percent of the shots you never take? Yeah. Rejection is scary, but it's better

than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right?

Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhard in you. Oh, my God, I would love it.

I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad.

I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Luge. I'm not going to hawk this slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's

Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a fun movie where you're just like you're like is a woman going to appear in this movie at all is this a shawshank situation like it takes a very long time for women to affect the plot at all and i would argue that that even hardly happens yes you're right well let's go home there's a lot of like implied women or there's a lot of women who are like a woman gave birth to buddy true we don't see her alive but we don't see a photo of her yeah well even from the very beginning like

in the in santa's workshop there are way more male elves than lady elves and i think there's only one elf woman who gets a line she yeah and then she's like buddy you're awesome and then she just disappears they're also they're also all white i noticed all white yeah which is like yeah i've seen i feel like other depictions of elves I've seen have been like, no, there are multicultural elves. Right. There are elves from different, yeah. Is it supposed to be like a worldwide?

But this is like fashy elves. It's creepy. You're just like, yikes. And it makes me wonder, since there are so few elf women, earlier when the narrator is setting everything up, he's like, oh, there's only three jobs that are available to elves.

It's either making shoes, baking cookies, or Santa's workshop. And it's like, okay, so does that mean all the elf women are baking cookies, like, doing the domestic thing? I'm speculating here, but I think. Who's the elf Betty Friedan, you know? Stepping in.

Also, elves fucking unionized man right i mean there's only three jobs available for you yeah yeah there just aren't enough elf women in the workforce frankly um i don't know no wonder they were so quick to adopt buddy i mean they needed more people in there they needed yeah they needed yeah they needed hands i don't know maybe it's a smurfette principle thing where there's only and they all i mean you would think population would be an issue if everyone's living 500 years but i don't know maybe some elves die very young i don't know what age does elf menopause hit i mean 600 yeah like you start craving things that aren't sugar when you get it'll go through elf menopause or something it's it's yeah it's very different i'd like a detailed study of that i do i do enjoy

that it was the elf daddy who like took the responsibility to adopt buddy because i feel like it could have easily been like the one elf woman you see takes on the matronly mothering role. Sure. But that doesn't happen, and so we get a single dad. So, yeah. He's also, but he is very, he has that kind of like, we were just talking about SpongeBob, that kind of SpongeBob quality of not being overly masculine

or just not being kind of, you know, well, until he meets Jovi and disrespects people's boundaries in New York and stuff like, but at first it's like, well, until he gets, until he, like, meets Jovi and, like, disrespects people's boundaries in New York and stuff, but at first it's like, oh, it's sweet. He's not doing things that are, like, traditionally gendered, and it's kind of cute. It's like, oh, he's really into giving people hugs and being sweet and giving compliments and things.

You know, okay, he should ask before he does that. And, yeah, as it goes on. I feel the same way, yeah. I mean, it's's like you definitely have like a cool version of masculinity presented here where he is never trying to wrong anyone ever and like you know comes from a place of love and then it's like oh we have a consent issue here i don't know i mean it it's weird because he is such a lovable character and like he i don't know i mean it it's weird because he's he is such a lovable character and like he i don't know i don't think he's too tall personally i think he's just tall enough

uh see i had a different read on that where he is like a very loving accepting person but once he gets into the real world he is acting like a man baby it's almost like the born sexy yesterday trope thing happening but like born adult yeah non-sexy yesterday i'm sorry but i mean he's not like you know a traditional like hot lady bombshell like he's not nude at any point although he does expose himself to mary steinberg but he has like this childlike mind that i only have the patience for for about 11 seconds one star which gets weird when you consider the romantic subplot of the movie where he has like a childlike understanding of the world and of everyone around him but then he does like start to feel sexual feelings for a woman who reciprocates but he has given her no reason other than the fact that he's

like a nice guy which is a good reason but he's a baby he has the mind of a baby and she's like oh well he's hot and so their their romance really is odd well that's what that was one of my main issues with the movie in general is you can remove the romantic subplot and nothing about the movie would change like if zoe de chanel didn't sing acapella at the end of this movie nothing would change uh and that's i mean i feel like that is such a i'm sure it was like you know studio notes shoehorn it in he's gotta fall in love but they don't really give her anything of narrative impact to do other than be his wife eventually. Which is too bad because I think that there are so many interesting good characters in this movie.

But I agree with you that going straight to an adult relationship that leads to marriage, what it appears to be very quickly, doesn't make a lot of sense for this character who has just entered the adult world for the first time. And it doesn't make a lot of sense for Jovi, who it's like, yeah, he's a nice guy, but he came into a room while she was showering and began to sing the most problematic Christmas song available.

That, for me, is enough reason to be like, yeah, I'm not going to date this person. So he comes into the locker room while she's showering and sings Baby, It's Cold Outside. And growing up Jewish, this was, I think, the first time that I had heard that song.

I was a teenager, and it was the first time. I probably heard it in the background, but I didn't know what it was I didn't know the name of the song I didn't know I really did not know the lyrics so this was like kind of a rude awakening for me at 16 and being like what the fuck is this song

and like I'm sorry like like Christians you know I know you only have like the two holidays whereas we have like 50 you know and like I mean Hanukkah is really only lumped in with Christmas at all like we don't no, you only have like the two holidays, whereas we have like 50, you know? And like, I mean, Hanukkah is really only lumped in with Christmas at all. Like we don't need Hanukkah songs and movies so much because it's actually a very minor holiday.

The only reason that it's put together that you like exchange presents at all is because of capitalism and marketing and, you know, putting these things in to make more money, to market to more people. See some Jews in the audience nodding. And then, but yeah, but that's, so it's, you know, it's one of many holidays for us.

I get that like Christmas is like a big deal, but I don't get why you guys want to make Christmas sexy. Believe me, I am all for sexy things. Like sexiness has its own, has it like, you know, there's a time and place for a lot of sexy things. And, you know, I have nothing against sexiness, but like Christmas isn't a sexy thing and I don't

know why this song about being cold and you know this playful creepiness where it's actually written as the parts are the parts for that song are actually called Wolf and Mouse I don't know if you guys knew that

yeah and there's so many people now who there's a backlash are actually called Wolf and Mouse. I don't know if you guys knew that. Yeah, and there's so many people now who there's a backlash to it, then there's the backlash to the backlash, and then there was the backlash to the backlash to the backlash. But just like overall, like fuck that song. It's not a good song. And Christmas isn't sexy.

There's nothing sexy about hanging around with your family. I love my family. I'm close with my family, but there is nothing sexy about that. Yes, agree. I totally agree. My family's sexy, no I'm kidding. One star.

So the shower scene is troubling, and then the moments leading up to the shower scene is also troubling because it's Buddy seeing Jovi So the shower scene is troubling. And then the moments leading up to the shower scene is also troubling because it's Buddy seeing Jovi for the first time. There's like this like angelic lighting that lights up from the Christmas tree. And he's like, ooh.

And then he goes over to her and tries to initiate a conversation. And a few different times she either says, please stop talking to me. Go away. Thanks thanks but i don't sing he's like trying to get her to sing or something and then he like blocks her from being able to move she's like trying to get past him and he's like blocking her path and then just a few scenes later is the shower scene where he hears her singing goes into the women's locker room also

there the elves get a locker room? Like, what is this place? I was just like, this is a really nice shower. They actually, they do. They have, and one thing that I noticed there is that, she goes, why are you bothering me? Did Crumpet put you up to this? And I realized that was David Sedaris' name when he was in Santa Land.

He wrote a book, you know, The Santa Land Diaries, and he wrote that into a lot of his writings. And I was like, oh, Amy Sedaris, his sister is in Santa land. He wrote a book, you know, the Santa land diaries. And he, he wrote that into a lot of his writings. And I was like, Oh, Amy Sedaris, his sister is in this movie. That's probably a shout out to, to David Sedaris.

A lot of the, you know, New York comedians knew him and, uh, and yeah, but yeah, he has written about it and he has said that they did actually get locker rooms to change in.

Interesting. Yeah. And they, cause they had like their special uniforms that were given to them. You had to, you know, you had to wear what it was so you would change. They probably weren't as nice as the ones there.

Also, Zooey Deschanel says she's showering there because her water was turned off, but it shows her apartment later, and that is a nice apartment by New York standards. That is a nice, big apartment to be living in on your own. But she's eating ramen, so she's poor. Yes. you know on your own right but she's eating ramen so she's poor yes but because he has such a childlike understanding of the world he doesn't realize that he's like invading this space apparently doesn't realize that she is naked in the shower and then just like is sitting near where she is and then sings along with her so that's horrible and scary um she does confront him a few scenes later where

she says something like that scene ends with her being like oh okay because she starts by saying like hey i need to talk to you and then she asks him why did you do that and he's like what i just love christmas and then she's like okay i, that is not. They could have cut the first two scenes and replaced it with anything, I feel like. Yeah. To establish their relationship. Because watching this, the thing is that I know there's the obnoxious,

this person makes you see the world in a different way. But I've got to say that being a grumpy, morbid person myself, I have dated a lot of people where like they came in and they were like let's have fun and I was like begrudgingly like okay and then I was like all right fine I'm actually having fun okay this is a good time and yeah that's actually like that's happened to me in my life where like you know you meet somebody cheerful and it affects your life in a positive way like that is a thing that happens it's a stupid trope but it is a thing that has happened in my life at least.

And it could have been done in a way without him creeping on her. Right. But the fact that so many romantic storylines in movies start out this way, where it's like, she's like, no, no, no, get away from me, don't talk to me. The most egregious example of this, I think, or at least of the movies that we've covered,

was The Notebook, where Rachel McAdams says no 50 times. I'll kill myself if you don't go on a little date with me! That, you know, I had a guy come up to me, I was actually, I think my friend is in the audience tonight who was with me, we were in Europe together after my, yeah, she's smiling, I can see her. And I was in Vienna, and we were separated for a few days, and I went off on my own to this park and there was like a Ferris wheel nearby.

And this guy came by and asked me to go out with him and go to a party with him. And I was like, no. And I told him over and over again. I was like, no, I have a boyfriend. No, I'm not interested. I'm not interested. And he tried to get like really philosophical. And he was like, but you just don't know where life is going to lead you.

And I think eventually I just walked away. He never did anything physically threatening. He was just, it was just kind of stupid. But I told some people about it afterwards, and they were like, oh, like The Notebook. You're like, oh, that romantic pantheon. Yeah, that movie is just like, The Notebook's a whole other situation.

I mean, Gosling is like, I'm gonna kill myself if you don't be my girlfriend. Well, yeah, see, I had a really complicated relationship with that movie, because I was like, so much about this is upsetting, but I had a really big crush on Rachel McAdams. So, yeah. But then I watched her in other things, so.

And Brian Gosling, too. The thing that's especially troubling about this movie is that it is appropriate for children. So kids are seeing this, And Ryan Gosling too. The thing that's especially troubling about this movie is that it is appropriate for children. So kids are seeing this and they're like, oh, that's how you ask a woman out. You wear her down until she finally says yes and then that works.

And that's bad. I mean, a lot of it is super tropey and I would almost attribute it to bad writing, but it's bad writing because so many people had already done a freaky, not good relationship that teaches you to not respect what a woman's telling you. I don't think, I mean, I don't think it's a badly written movie, I think, but I do, yeah, I mean, I do think that there was,

I think that there was also kind of a thing at the time. I mean, maybe I'm also defending it because it was a jewish man who wrote this and i like feel for my my fellow jewish film people making and being in christmas movies um but no i feel like it was just kind of a weird common trope at the time the early 2000s there was just this huge like plethora of romantic comedies and that was in like every single one of them well this is the year being worn down i'm pretty sure this is the same year as Love Actually comes out too. Yeah, Love Actually.

And I think The Notebook too. Yeah, I mean, I think it's like all in the same year that these come out. So that's not the greatest. And I don't know. I mean, I don't think this is a badly written movie. I think that the romantic plot was not written very thoughtfully because

there is a version of this story that Zooey Deschanel's character goes on to do anything else other than show up in the last scene and be like la la la la la la la Zooey X Machina yeah

and so in that way it's just if you take her character out of the movie, how much changes? I feel like Buddy's character changes enough just with his own family that you can sort of get to the same place, which just to me is like,

well, then she's not given enough to do. And she's just so underwritten as a character that when he does ask her out, she says yes, but we don't know why because she's so underwritten as a character that when he does ask her out we she says yes but we don't know why because she's so underwritten that she has nothing in common with him because we don't know anything about her and then okay so I want to talk about the scene where he does ask her out because his brother is with him this 12 year old kid and he's like hey buddy ask her out on a date to eat food and if she says yes you're in it's like a secret code girls have and i think that's meant to be a woman's saying yes, aka giving consent, is code for yes?

Yes. Like, yes means yes, I guess? I don't know. It kind of sounds like it might not be a code after all. I was trying to process. I'm like, is this meant to be a really funny joke? Or is it just like, ha-ha, look at this dumb kid who doesn't understand like dating yet but like i was just like what a weird line to add into the movie i do think that that was supposed to be a joke in the

like whole like michael's like the child wise beyond his years and he's gonna show buddy how to because i'm like because michael's dating all the time he's 12 you know uh well i mean that's kind of the theme of the movie i feel like that's a theme of a lot of christmas movies is is you know the innocent will lead us and there's this message of maintain that childhood innocence and also just believe it's interesting to me that so many christmas movies have the message of just believe and everything will come to you you know it's this you know just believe and believe in Santa Claus and I always thought that was kind of weird from an outsider's perspective you know once I was sort of old enough to take a look at that you know and people would point that out and like the Christmas movie that

I was in I was like yeah I guess it is kind of weird that you are telling children the message here is like over and over again believe believe believe believe and then later on it's like oh by the way that's a lie or by the way that's not true and i mean that's not to say like of course i do think that there is value in in you know celebrating uh christmas with santa claus and you know having these sort of magical moments with children like i don't think these are a bad thing at all but i do think that it's interesting that the message that always comes across is like stay young stay stay innocent, and always believe. Unless we are in like the third act of a Christmas movie

right now and Kurt Russell as Hot Santa is gonna like burst in and be like, we need you to believe or else we're gonna die. And then the three of us need to be like, okay, we believe. Yeah, you're right. Also like it always annoyed me that Santa got so much credit for going all over the world.

And it's like, yeah, he probably skips the majority Buddhist and Muslim countries. Yeah, that's true. He stops a few places and then gets in his sleigh. It's all the Christian families. He's slacking off. It's not the whole world. He's slacking off. It's not the whole world.

Also, Santa, as he's presented in this movie, is kind of all over the place where Santa brags to Buddy several times, like, I know how the world works. I'm fucking Santa. But then when Buddy's like, cool, I'm going to the world, Santa gives him no advice. He's just like, cool, good luck. Also, that famous race sucks.

It sucks. I got food poisoning from there. Anyway, go on. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, and then at the end, when Santa needs help, when Santa Ex Machina falls out of the sky, he is like, hey, everyone, fix my sleigh.

I was like, what was your plan B, sir? Like, what, how would we have gotten this up? So, like, Buddy travels to New York City from the North Pole on foot, and it seems like Christmas is only, like, a week or two later. Why didn't he just wait, and then Santa could give him a ride?

Like, right. It was something he had to do on his own. Come on, hero journey. Right, right, right, right, right. Yes. Also, right, right, right, right. Yes. Also, can we talk about how naughty has exactly two connotations, and it's Christmas if you're naughty or nice, or it's sexy. So actually, I think Christmas is sexy.

But this is one of the reasons I think that Christmas is creepy. Maybe that's why I don't like the word naughty. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere,

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I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song?

Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Ludie. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous.

Yee, my flock, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Anyway, okay. Can we talk about the surprise kiss that happens? Because Buddy and Jovi go on their date. They're ice skating. He surprise kisses her on the cheek.

But then she's like, you missed. And he's like, what? And then she grabs his face and then kisses him on the lips. So she was, as the audience, we are led to believe into him kissing her. But he just like lunged at her initially like i don't know it's the whole thing of him being sexual even though we've only seen him act like a child up until that point he's like eating pop tarts and like gumdrops on spaghetti with maple syrup and chocolates like he's a baby and it always is weird to me in movies where they when they sexualize

either children or childlike characters you know that always bothers me it is a little weird i mean like where did buddy learn to kiss you know right also he he's you know he's 30 right him being in the north pole does not explain why he's has a baby's brain like there are the other elves with him seem to be regular adults who can like function in the world as adults so it doesn't well why is he a baby i think that in this movie the something that is confusing but it's like he's so fun to watch that we don't question it is that like happiness and stupidity are conflated completely yeah You're like, he's happy, so he must be an idiot. He can't even read. That's a very New York sentiment, I would say.

You're like, oh, it works for the character, but then when you bring him out in the world, you're like, wait, I thought he was just happy. I thought he was just happy and too big for the chairs. There are some female characters in this movie that I like, but they are not given a lot to do. One of them is Amy Sedaris, the secretary. She's great.

Who you hear talking on the phone to a friend, saying that she's like, well, I don't know, Deb. I've never declawed kittens before, but I guess I can do it. Like, I want a movie about her. And this is Amy Sedaris, so she probably came up with that on the fly. Oh, yeah.

Which, it is her talking to another woman. Right. And, you know, imagine if this movie barely kind of sort of passes,

but only because of that, which she probably just made up. Right, yeah. But there's also, there's also, I also like Mary Steenburgen's character.

I like Mary Steenburgen in general, I think. I love her. Yeah, I love her too. There's a lot of actors in this movie that I really love. But she is very okay and excited and happy about Buddy being there. She's not like, he's not my son. I don't want him here.

She is very encouraging. She's like, I can't wait to meet your son. It's so sad but so beautiful that this happened you know where let's make him a part of the family so there isn't this evil stepmother trope which is nice it's this very warm welcoming one yeah it would have been an easy choice to make her like a very shrewy like i'm jealous and i don't want this strange man from the woman that you've fucked earlier to be in my house also she talks a lot about her job. She's like, I have an accounts meeting

or an accounting meeting that day. So she's got her own life and career. Right. We don't really know. There's one time she's like, I have to do the budgets this day. That's what it is. And you're like, yup, sure. Right, well, because he was like,

you stay home and take care of Buddy, because James Caan was like. No, no, no, budgets. Yeah. And he's like, I, no. Budgets. Yeah. And he's like, I stand corrected. That's another thing with Buddy's character where he has such a bizarre blind spot to adult women in general

where he never questions like, what went on with my biological mom? That's never really a question that's raised. Also, do elves know what death is? Is this gonna be a shock for him? And then with Mary Steenburgen's character, she is showing him much more love and acceptance and affection.

And it's not that he responds to that negatively, but he's just sort of like, cool, thanks, here's some spaghetti. But he doesn't get attached to her in a way that he gets, he really only, with the exception of Zooey Deschanel's character, only gets attached to other men around him. Because he's-

Maybe he's also attracted to people who don't like him. Because Zooey Deschanel's character doesn't like him at first. And he's just kind of like, I don't understand. But it's, yeah, it's not exactly healthy. I mean, I feel like I'm totally overanalyzing this. Let's armchair diagnose Buddy the Elf. Well, that's a thing about this movie

is that mental health is treated really in a strange and mishandled way where people keep saying that Buddy is insane or that he's chemically imbalanced. That phrase gets thrown around. And then the doctor character played by Jon Favreau says something like, oh yeah, he's probably reverting to this stage of blah blah blah, whatever, just take him home and he'll probably drop

the whole act after a while. And it's like, I'm sorry, that's your medical advice, doctor? Okay, so yeah. Yeah, Dr. Jon Favreau prescribes love. You're just like,. Yeah, Dr. Jon Favreau prescribes love. You're just like, all right, cool. That feels like a very 2003 thing, though. That was very much the age of The Secret

and just be better about it, and you'll be better. Just think better about it. This is such a, because I was like, oh, it is such a Bush-era movie in general. Because you're like, okay, well, everyone's white. Although we do see a black Santa. We do see a black Santa. The boss at the department store,

because they have to fire the other Santa who gets into a fight. And then he assumes the role as Santa. Will Ferrell was in every movie in those days. He was. He really was. I remember all of us joking. I remember having a joke with my friends when we were really tired from school being like, wish we could have whatever Will Ferrell's having.

I don't know, this is what theater and film majors think is funny, I guess. But yeah, he was just in everything in those days. He would be in five movies a year, and it was just like, yep, this is it. There's another quick point I wanted to make about so toward the end um whenever they're trying to prove that santa is real in like they're all everyone's in central park and michael gets a hold of santa's list of naughty people and nice people too and um he starts reading

from it on the air so he's going through and he's like this girl wants a pop-up girls play set this boy wants an electric guitar this girl wants a doll called suzy talks a lot and then uh this boy wants classic women talking a lot uh this boy wants a pair of like nike shoes this grown woman which we talked about once, Tiffany engagement ring, and her boyfriend has stopped dragging his feet into commit already. So it's these very gendered toys where the boys want the tough, traditionally masculine toys, and the girls all want dolls or a marriage.

And not to disparage any of that, but it is so, again, you're just like, oh, we're not thinking above what the normal thing would be here. And then the one guy who, they're like, oh, this guy wants a spa thing, and it cuts to a grown man, and then everyone turns to him, and they're like, oh, you wanna relax, you fucking weirdo?

And that's part of the joke. and they're like, oh, you wanna relax, you fucking weirdo? And that's how they joke. And this was also the age of the metrosexual, too. That was a thing. You had straight men talking about getting pedicures in People magazine all the time. So it was a little weird. Yeah, but the one time that there was like, oh, we're gonna not adhere to this rigid gender toy norm thing

is a guy who wants a spa, and everyone's like, what a fucking disgusting, sick... There's a few moments that I think fall under the same umbrella that happened between Buddy and his dad a few times where it's weird because with Buddy Buddy once he's in New York everything has to be like well there was a boundary issue there too but with the dad there's times where he's like and then we could hold hands and then we could cuddle and the dad's like oh no I would never cuddle with my son and it's's just like very, again, it's like the gender norms of male affection

works with handshakes. And that's it. You can't spoon your son. I mean, the movie does end with Buddy sitting on his adoptive father's lap. Yes. So, yeah. I mean, Daddy Elf never had an issue with it.

Daddy Elf was always very affectionate, but it was... Crushing Daddy Elf sounds, yeah, sounds like a porn. had an issue with it daddy elf was always very affectionate but it was crushing daddy elf sounds yeah sounds like a porn oh that was my question okay as it pertains to buddy's understanding of sexuality so elves how much are they fucking right because they live a long time. Maybe they're not super horny because species-wise, they don't need to, stay with me,

because they don't need to reproduce as much. Maybe they're not as horny than people with less time. Oh, like how sea turtles, or like the land turtles, only fuck like once every 10 years or something? Right, because they're like, well, you know, I've got time. I don't need to be frantically fucking all the time.

I'm a turtle. So I'm getting closer. So I think why Buddy has the brain of a baby is because elves live a thousand years and so if he's 30 he's basically three you know what I mean

so he's like la la la because the elves when they're 30 they're like we're not gonna be fucking for like you know for at least a century plus what my original question was was has buddy seen porn oh like elf porn it would have to be elf porn i mean i don't know what else it would be unless i don't know that's, I guess that's his understanding of sexuality because he does marry the first woman he meets.

Yeah, what was that conversation? What was his understanding? I don't know. I get, well, it's the born sexy yesterday thing again. She has to teach him how to sex. And then he's like, okay, let's marry. I don't know if that's responsible. I don't know.

My only question was, was there porn? Oh, okay. Well. But no one has that answer. Does anyone have any other things they want to talk about? I did want to say, yeah, this movie was both written and directed by Jewish people,

which I kind of find interesting. But I mean, if you actually look at it, most of the songs, like most of the best Christmas songs were also written, like Irving Berlin and, you know, Ruth Red Nose Reindeer, all these songs were written by Jewish people.

So like it is kind of, yeah, it's kind of funny and kind of strange that like this movie where it's all about Christmas spirit, Christmas spirit was written by people who like had rabbis perform their weddings and stuff but but yeah i don't know i i that i found i think very interesting oh also peter yeah the thing with peter the scene with peter dinklage where they're just like making fun of him where but he just keeps calling him an elf like over and over again like even in like 2003 i was like, this is not, this isn't cool.

This isn't funny. No, it's not funny. And then it's like, okay, I mean, the Peter Dinklage character wins the fight and says everything that the audience is, even though he comes in hot of like, I fuck more than you'll fuck in your life, where you're just like, whoa. I will now start every argument that way.

But yeah, I couldn't make heads or tails of that scene. Yeah, that would have been insensitive in 2003, and now it just is like, what? Whose idea was this and what did it add? Yeah, at the very least, Buddy's insensitive comments go challenged by the person that he's directing them toward. But it sucks that the one time you get representation on screen of a little person, it's like,

oh, you're an elf. The joke, yeah. Peter Dinklage has been very good about saying like i don't ever want to play elves i want to play these characters that are you know where they're either you know actual people they're not it's not a joking thing where it's not treated in this certain way or it's addressed but it's an addressed in an in an honest and open way and not you know and not like this so i i do think it's interesting that he chose this movie, but I mean, that's his rardom, that's his choice.

And I love Peter Dinklage, so I love seeing him in anything. I don't know if you ever saw that meme where it's just the Game of Thrones theme, but it's just the words Peter Dinklage sung to the theme. Dinklage, Peter Dinklage, Peter Dinklage, Peter Dinklage. Yeah, I love that meme because I love Peter Dinklage.

Yeah, I mean, I do I love Peter Dinklage. Yeah, I mean, I do remember thinking when he said, like, I never do these things. I was like, I wonder how he feels about Elf in retrospect. Kind of like the way Viola Davis has said, like, she feels conflicted about the help and, you know, something like that. I was always like, I wonder if he, you know,

I mean, he does get to be strong and kick Will Ferrell's ass. Yeah. I mean, I regret everything I said yesterday. So I'm sure, like, people who've done things, you know, from the early 2000s, you know, they might do it differently today. It's just, yeah. I mean, I was in some movies in the early 2000s that, yeah. So I completely understand. No, I'm kidding.

I had a great time making them, blah, blah, blah,ite explanation um i did it's true i did i even if i wasn't in the always the best movies but yeah anyway go on but i don't know that moment just like it is so bizarre because most of the like quote unquote misunderstandings that buddy has in the real world are usually pretty innocent and it's not always the greatest joke of your life but you're like, he don't understand how doors work. He crazy, man. And then all of a sudden it's like,

but what if he did this very offensive thing but we still love him so much and it was just a strange choice. Right, especially like that role was written specifically as and cast a little person. It's not a little person just who can exist in the world as a normal person. That role was written so that he could then be made fun of.

So I mean, and Peter Dinklage has been in many other movies where that's not the case, so that's good. But for this movie, that's the scenario and it's not the best. yeah that's good but for this movie that's the scenario and it's you know not the best i hope his residuals are good they are because as i told you christmas movies they pay love it um any other any other thoughts there is a really good cast in this movie like that's that's a thing there's a lot of really good actors and i forgot that amy sedaris was in it and she's one of my strangers with candy i don't know if anyone's seen it, that's a thing. There's a lot of really good actors in it. I forgot that Amy Sedaris was in it, and she's one of my, Strangers with Candy, I don't know if anyone's seen it, but that's one of the best shows ever.

And she is phenomenal in it. But too bad that she gets maybe a minute and 30 seconds of screen time. She hardly has any bearing on the story at all. I think she's the one woman working at the office there. Yeah. There's two women, there like a woman that he compliments. Oh, wearing a purple dress.

Wearing a purple dress, yes. But yeah, she's one of two women that work in that office. Which, I mean, that is not true of publishing. I've got to tell you. You go to publishing and it's like, I love going to my publisher's office because it was just like a bunch of short women in sweaters that were just covered in cat and dog hair.

I was just like, I love you guys. You are my people. Especially children's publishing. Yeah, I'm like, why was this? I did appreciate seeing an older white male character who was just blatantly horrible at his job and should have been fired. We don't very frequently get to see mediocrity

on full display and I was like, no. Or we do, but it's not acknowledged. Exactly, they're like, well of course he has this job. This makes sense. I also, one of my favorite tropes ever is the story within the story and everybody's like, wow, this is the most amazing thing ever. Where people will be like, this story or this movie is just fantastic. And it's like wow this is the most amazing thing ever where people

will be like this story or this movie is just fantastic and it's like of course they think that the author wrote them both yeah you know like like everybody's just so into the story so i do i do i kind of find it funny that it's like you know he made millions you know with buddy the elf the book right which is which is such a great story i'd watch a movie about it and go see a musical um or see a musical about it well uh let's take some questions or comments from the audience if we've got any yeah come on down so you can be on the mic um i'm curious to hear what you guys think about that special someone joke because I feel like they were

kind of making fun of women's sexuality within that joke when Buddy gave that lingerie to his dad which was like really uncomfortable in all sense of the word clearly Buddy

hasn't seen porn right there's my answer no but also maybe elf sexy stuff is different maybe it is right so the joke is that he sees in the store like a sign that's like get this for your someone special and it's like sexy lingerie uh and then he gives it to his dad because again he has the brain of a child and he has no understanding of sexuality or that that would not be an appropriate gift to give his father so i don't know i don't know if it's making fun of women's sexuality so much as that it's making fun of his inability to understand anything about the world but the fact that it is like a sexy woman's garment is the butt of the joke, so.

That doesn't. At the end, you see it on the chair next to Mary Steenburgen, so he probably passed it on. But I always wondered like, what would she think? Re-gifted. Yeah, like you might have this love actually moment where she comes across this nightgown and is like, is this for me or is this for someone else?

Or is this, you know? But he's just very lucky that he chose her size is like, is this for me or is this for someone else? Or is this, you know? But he's just very lucky that he chose her size because that could have led to some anxiety and doubt and confusion and disbelief in their marriage, which already was not the most happy and healthy, it seems. I mean, that first scene when he comes home and he's like, I'm not eating with you, and leaves you and leaves and she's like okay and then the son is like can i leave as well i was like

poor mary has been here for a minute and everyone she's way too accommodating especially to her like really shitty husband who's a bad husband and a bad father and bad at his job he's really not good at much no but she's i feel like so underwritten that she's like well everything's fine so christmas any any other thoughts questions yeah come on down um since this movie is severely lacking in diversity who would you cast as Alfred Molina? Oh! Thank you for asking. I have a lot of opinions. I think that Alfred Molina, you know, could have been Buddy, obviously. He could have been Buddy, he can play anything, right?

Oh, he could have been Daddy Elf easily. But what I think is the best solution is to cast him as James Caan's son that would be the ideal they're like oh here's my son Michael he's 12

and Alfred Molina's not even doing an American accent he's just fully British he's like, hello. My name is Michael. I'm surprised you didn't say Santa. Yeah. Well, no, I have to cast him as Santa in Santa University.

Sure. So I can't have him being associated with another Santa franchise. I understand. That's just good business. But yeah, no, I think he would play i think you know we know he can play anything so let's see if he can play a 12 year old great question thank you any others oh yeah one more hi uh i was wondering what you all thought about feminist icon raccoon who attacks Buddy? Good call.

Good call. First of all, how many nipples does a raccoon have? Eight? Ten? Twelve? I don't know. None? We don't know. What if it's just one? Does any animal have one? I don't think so. I think it's always even numbers.

It's always sets. They come in sets. Well, your question, what do I think of him? I think that indeed feminist icon, maybe even queer icon. I think that the raccoon is certainly an ally. And also Buddy, who's not good at listening, per se, to what people are trying to communicate to him, Raccoon is being explicitly clear.

And so we know, moment one, Buddy's not going to take cues in this world. And I know in 2003, we were all there. Go with me on this journey. In 2003, we're like oh my god the raccoon's being so rude to Will Ferrell is the raccoon on her period? yeah like what is wrong with her?

I know a lot about raccoons but I don't know if they actually do they menstruate? I don't think they do really? do not all mammals? no they do but it's like it's not like human is it's like you don't see it oh jealous that sounds better No, they do, but it's not like human is. It's like you don't see it happen. Oh, jealous. That sounds better. But then in 2018, we're like, actually, where's the film franchise for the raccoon?

Because she really has a story we didn't explore. I think she should be in a movie with Amy Sedaris. And Amy Sedaris will be like, boy, I've never declawed a raccoon before. And, you know, and the raccoon teaches her that, like, declawing is, like, actually bad, and you shouldn't do it, because it hurts your cats, and I'm a cat lady, so I know this.

But, yeah, that's, that's, I do also love raccoons. I am always in support of raccoons, in almost everything. They're one of my favorite animals. I really love them. I have, like, a raccoon puppet at home that pops out of a little garbage can.

I'm almost always on Team Raccoon. I'm almost always on Team Raccoon. The puppet I didn't see coming. I will say. I was at a convention. I was working and I saw it's a little stuffed animal.

It's a puppet. I'll leave it half there so people don't think that I'm like a puppet person although I actually did learn how to do puppetry at NYU but that's a whole other story NYU is a weird place guys I'm a puppet person yeah we know JB I know any other questions or comments or anything like that oh yeah um this is a long time ago, but you were talking about Baby It's Cold Outside and about how those lyrics aren't great. And there's actually a musician named Lydia Liza who has released a modernized version of the song, like updated lyrics.

She did it like a few years ago. It's on Spotify, and also you can, all the money that goes from that goes to like survivors and a couple foundations as well and it's like a really funny take on the song i guess if you like baby's cold outside sort of but you don't want to listen to the lyrics that's that's a good alternative thank you yes thank you so much we'll check that out um sorry you guys want to be present not to challenge queer icon raccoon because i totally agree but like what about queer icon awkward claymation mr norwall oh yes fully excellent

point yes clearly we were not as thorough as we should have been in this episode i'm pretty sure all the claymations are are yeah they're they're all queer they're all queer i mean i don't know maybe that was just my reading of it but no i think you're uh i thought the penguin was queer coded yes yes i i thought they were all queer coded yeah that's the snowman from the Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer animated movie, right? Yeah. But I agree with Narwhal. I would also argue that Penguin, what's the story there?

Maybe that's Buddy's next book. I mean, there are a lot of gay penguins. Yes, yes. There are. Oh, has no one else read this clickbait? Because it's true. All right, well, hey, does this movie pass the Bechdel test? No.

Unless you count Amy Sedaris talking to another woman on the phone. I would say because we don't hear the other woman talking, then probably not. Yeah, because she is named. Her name is Connie, and they are talking about declying cats, which talk about a Bechdel test passing scene. Like, wow. It's a medal.

Even if the cats are male cats, I still think it would pass. But she's named, I think, Connie. And then Amy Sedaris's character's name is Deb. But because we don't hear Connie's voice and her side of the conversation, I would say that does not pass. The only other time where it comes close, where women are interacting,

is toward the end, whenever Jovi and Mary Steenburgen's character, Burgen? Burgen. I think it's Burgen, but I don't know. They sing at each other, but the song is about Santa Claus, so it does not pass,

and they're also not actually talking to each other and that's all you get and with women interacting in the movie elf yeah there's really not much happening there mm-hmm well let's rate the movie on our nipple scale shall we yeah yeah zero to five nipples based on his portrayal of women i'm gonna give it a half nipple or zero it's just i think it's zero yeah i'm gonna give it zero nipples because between zoe's character which the arc of that is that he harasses her and wears her down into eventually going out with him. And then basically her function in the story is to help him grow as a person.

So she doesn't have any sort of her own character or her own story. It's all just about characterizing him. Mary Steenburgen's character. Did I say it right? I don't know. We've said it both ways. So we're going to be right. There's a 50% chance.

She is very underwritten, as is Amy Sedaris' character. They exist in the story to support the men around them. And yeah, it's a very white movie. It's a very hetero movie. So zero nipples, and that's the end of my speech. I'm going gonna go with i'll give it one okay give it half of one okay because i think as with most movies we cover there's a lot of missed potential where at very least i'm going back to one okay okay i'm going back to one uh because especially with mary steenburgen's character uh there were a lot of tropey pitfalls this character could have gone to that the writer didn't go in that direction and instead went in no direction and sort of made her like an inconsequential character.

And then there's moments where you're like, oh Jovi is advocating for herself, she's communicating clearly, don't do this, don't do this, but she still ends up with the guy that always does it anyways. And so I think the few female characters we have, there is potential in them but because they never technically get to meet each other and because of i mean the whole circumstance of how

like you were saying they only exist as it pertains to male characters we just lose that and i think that there is you know a version of this story where one of the many male characters is written out to make room for Mary or Zoe's character that ends up in a much more interesting movie also scary whitest ever fashy

North Pole no thank you very freaky but the claymation was queer. But queer coded. Queer coded. Also, why isn't Santa a woman? All female reboot of Christmas.

They mention Mrs. Claus, but it's just Mrs. Claus made that for me. Yeah. Yeah, Ariana Grande, Santa is a woman. Major Christmas drop. Calling it now. Why not

beat a dead horse? Okay, no, yeah. I'll go one strictly on completely missed potential. And because there are still parts of this movie that I thought I had seen that I thought were sweet.

And it's nice to see a leading male character who is not inherently macho toxic. Sure, yeah. So one nippy, and I'm giving it to the raccoon. What say you? Yeah, I was gonna say two, but then I realized I was pretty much gonna say giving it to the raccoon. What say you? Yeah, I was gonna say two,

but then I realized I was pretty much gonna say everything that Jamie said, so I feel kind of like I kind of have to bump it down to one and a half. I do think that the women are often the most interesting characters in this movie, and I like a lot of the actresses. You know, I love Amy Sedaris. I love Mary Seenburgen.

Steen-burgen. So I think that there's, yeah, there's definitely that. And I do think there is something sweet in there about, like, you know, your biology not being your destiny and, like, there is a message there sort of of, like, I mean, I guess he does, like, find his biological family, but it's also, it is also, like, you are also the people that raised you.

And, you know, and that doesn't necessarily have to be the people that brought you into the world. And so I think that that is kind of a nice message that you find in the movie there. So yeah, I think I probably would have to say one and a half, but I do feel very much like there were missed opportunities and there was more that could be done.

And it makes me sad that there weren't. i do still think that it is like a sweet movie i think it is very much of its time there is this like really weird like period the 2000s were like there were some good movies but just like that culture i feel like of entertainment at that time was really weird and there was a lot of stuff that went on that like really shouldn't have and and so like even like the movies that are good or even the movies that are sweet like have this weird you know kind of like aspartame you know after like aftertaste to them of like of like that was sweet but oh what is this we've covered a lot of those movies on the podcast yeah we always come to the same conclusion yeah yeah yeah i've been i've been listening i was just listening to miss congeniality

episode and it was like oh yeah right That was ostensibly okay back then. Wasn't that long ago that that was okay. That's weird. But yeah, 2000s were a cultural wasteland. Fight me. That's not true. We had mean girls. We had the wire, you know,

which are equal in my eyes. No, we did have culture back there. We had Beyonce. But it was a very strange, very conservative time, I think. There wasn't a lot of risk taking. Would you like to give your nipples to anyone? Just as little Christmas tokens?

Would I like to give my nipples to anyone? Not your, sorry. Caitlin. As a Christmas token. What if I bailed on you right now? Yeah, sorry, I like, I had a, sorry, I had a moment of like, you know. I mean, I had a, sorry, I had a moment of like, of like,

you know, I mean, I would also love to give them to the raccoon, but I think I'm going to give them to the kittens that need to be declawed. Oh, yes. Great. They need nipples.

Thank you so much for being here. No, thank you for having me. Give it up for Laura Wilson. This was a really fun show. I didn't think I had strong feelings on this movie but I guess I did we all do

where can people find you online is there anything you would like to plug yeah you can find me at Mara Wilson on Twitter you can go to

mara.substack.com for my newsletter it's called Shent We Tell the Vicar because every week I close with a fake BBC show title that's one of my

favorite things making fun of British television shows, because they all have ridiculous names. Yeah, you can find me there. I'm on the show Big Hero 6, if you have children. And so, yeah, you can just go ahead and follow me there. Awesome. Thank you so much. You can follow us at allthenormalplaces.

Thanks for coming. Happy holidays. And we'll see you next time. Thank you. Oh, hey everyone. That was our live show episode. How'd you like that? Oh, they loved it. Anyway, well we just want to say thank you again to our guest Mara Wilson. Oh, she's incredible.

Thanks again to the Ruby. Just a reminder that we have a live show there every second Saturday of the month at 9 p.m. Come give us a little kiss. Yeah, only if you want to and only if we want you to. I'm just all about consent here, you know? Come give us a little kiss. Jamie has granted her consent.

I give a blanket consent. Please do not touch me or look me in the eye come give me a little kiss and now it sounds like i'm soliciting so anyways come to the ruby and we'll just you know feel things out yes yeah great that's great um anyway you can uh follow us on social media at bechtel cast you can rate and review us on itunes that helps us a lot yes that's your christmas present to us yes please give us a a wonderful review um you can subscribe to our patreon aka matreon five dollars a month gets you two bonus episodes go to patreon.com spectral cast and uh check out our merch if you're looking for any belated holiday gifts or you want to rush order something.

The link is tpublic.com slash the Bechdel cast. We have some holiday exclusive designs and all the ones you know and love. So check them out. Yes, indeed. Well, happy holidays to you, Jamie, and happy holidays to us all. Happy holidays to you, Caitlin.

Okay, bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime

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