The Bechdel Cast - Erin Brockovich with Alfred Molina

Episode Date: January 10, 2019

ALFRED MOLINA IS OUR GUEST AND WE TALKED ABOUT ERIN BROCKOVICH(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @OfficialMolina on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELPhttps://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-angel-of-vine/id1440183372?mt=2 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante.

And this is a podcast where we discuss the role of women in movies you know and possibly love. That's right. And we use the Bechdel test as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation about the representation and portrayal of women in cinema. And if you're not familiar, the Bechdel test is a media test that was created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel. And it requires that the story has two female-identifying characters who have names. They must speak to each other,

and their conversation cannot be about a man. You think it would be easy, and yet almost every movie can't do it. A lot of movies fail the test. Or some of our faves, or like or like a barely pass where it's like you should kill yourself hey that's mean and then it passes yes upsetting that was the she's all that pass so whoopsie for that movie whoops today is a very special day it's a very special day in back to cast history i don't know if our guest is aware what a big deal this is for us. I don't know. We'll have to find out. I mean, there's a lot of lore. There's a lot of backstory. It's all been coming down to this.

To this very moment. Yes. So in the interest of not burying the lead any further, let us introduce our guest. Yes. He really needs no introduction on this specific show. You hear about him all the time. He is, of course, actor Alfred Molina. Alfred Molina. Hello. Hello, nice to be here. Hi. I'm getting slightly worried now.

I know. Okay, so we were afraid this might happen. I don't know how adequately briefed you were on our podcast. Well, inadequately, clearly. Everyone's getting very nervous. Also, right before we came in, you were like, oh, that's crazy. We're going into a soundproof room nervously. And then we're like, oh, we're about to really spring something on him.

And then the soundproof room will seem even worse. We're just huge fans. Oh, well, that's very nice. Thank you. Thank you. Do we mention you on every episode? Yes. Literally every episode.

Why on earth would you want to do that? It's on our feminist podcast. We mention you in over 100 episodes. In a podcast about how women should talk about men less. I'm flattered. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm flattered. But slightly worried for you.

We are also worried for you. We are also worried for ourselves. And yet we are huge fans. We regularly at the end of every show say, if Alfred Molina wasn't in this movie, what's the part that we think he should have taken from someone else? So we have a lot of... I have that conversation with myself often. We should swap notes.

Uh, we'll let you know where you belonged in movies. You weren't in. All right. Great. Uh, and call my agent, let her know as well. We'll do. We're, we're just so psyched to have you. Well, thank you.

I'm delighted to be here. Thank you. That's very sweet of you. Yeah. No. So now, um, you've picked the movie that we're talking about today. Yes. Erin Brockovich.

Yes. Is there any specific reason you picked this one? And what's your sort of relationship and history with this movie? Well, apart from just being a bit of a fan of Julia Roberts, but also on a personal level, Albert Finney and I are chums. Oh, no kidding. And I sort of always, you know, whenever Albert is in a movie, I always kind of go and watch it because, you know, he's one of, I think, one of the actors that certainly my generation of actors, he's a little bit, he's like about 10 years or so ahead of me, maybe a bit more.

But when I was growing up and studying, he was one of those actors that you sort of kind of – I certainly revered him. I looked up to him a little bit. And he was the sort of actor that I kind of wanted to be when I was very young. And he's always been, you know, the kind of character actor that, you know, a whole generation of us sort of aspired to. But also it was such a really, really interesting story. I mean, films that have a female lead character are traditionally and the general sort of intelligence seems to be that those movies are harder to market. They're harder to sell.

It's harder to find an audience for them. Which is crazy. Totally crazy. So you need star power. Or you need a story that's kind of really compelling. And it's true of that movie. But there's a kind of, I think it's because it's not overtly political. It's not a movie with a cause in a sense.

It's not kind of proselytizing about anything in particular. It's really, I find it very, very much character-based. And what Julia Roberts did with the role was so audacious and wonderfully free of really caring about what anyone thinks. I mean, it starts off, I mean, the first time you see her in the movie, she's kind of in a mood. She's like, you know, she's breaking out of something. She's got an opinion.

She has a point of view. And that, I always think, is the best thing about any kind of story on film is that you're not, you know, she's not trying to please everybody. The writing isn't trying to say, you know, this is the kind of woman all women should aspire to you know yeah this is just a very specific woman who is going through a very specific thing and that and that always I always found that um attractive and and very entertaining and you know but it's a story that has such heart and passion and her journey.

You know, she starts off unemployed, almost homeless. Yeah. With children, a ne'er-do-well partner who's not kind of, you know, pulling his weight. And so straight away, the movie starts with her absolutely with the odds against her in every possible way. And still there's this sort of, you know, the guts of it and the rage, I think, is what fuels her as well, not just being honourable or being decent or being noble. In a way, there's nothing really noble about Erin Brockovich. She knows exactly what she needs to do.

She knows exactly what has to happen in order for her to create some kind of decent life for herself. She knows exactly what has to happen in order for her to create some kind of decent life for herself. She's very single minded. She's not carrying, you know, the message of a movement or the aspirations of other people. Right. And that makes her, to me, kind of one of the great sort of heroines of modern cinema.

That was beautiful. She's a, yeah. I've got it all written down down I'll give it to you later new audition monologue that's my audition monologue just explaining why you like Karen Brockovich it breaks the ice I find it works for me

it's the great equaliser I feel like this is one of those movies that it's very hard to find someone who has seen this movie and doesn't at least appreciate it, if not is like a fan of it. Definitely. I've seen this movie, as with many, in bits and pieces on TNT over a course of years. And I'd seen it all the way through once in high school. But I hadn't revisited it in a long time.

And rewatching it for this, I I mean any movie released in the year 2000 we just released uh What Women Want episode you're just like this could go a lot of ways uh this is like a span of years where things were going all over the place but I mean I thought it held up I mean pretty spectacularly well and probably part of the reason is because it's rooted in a true story. So it's harder to let a lot of the insidious tropes that we talk about all the time into a true story. Although some of them sneak in there anyways. But I really, I thought it was great. I enjoyed watching it.

Yeah. Julia Roberts kills it. Albert Finney kills it. A lot of good performances. Aaron Eckhart has a braid. You're just like, I forgot about that. I had no memory. He's got a full-on biker look.

You're just like, okay. I saw this movie. I don't think I saw it in theaters, but it was one of those ones where I saw it within a year of it coming out on DVD or whatever. And I think that was the only time I had seen it before re-watching it to prep for the show and I was reminded that I really enjoy it I love a good you know like investigatory that's not a word I like it let's keep it um yeah I just I really I enjoy the movie I think it is entertaining and

performances are great and I like the story that unfolds. Cute baby in the movie? A cute baby, wow. You can never lose with a cute baby. Cute baby and cute dogs. Yes, yes. It's the absolute kind of winner. I was won over very easily. The baby, I don't know,

it was an active baby. Julia Roberts is having fun with the baby. Great chemistry with the baby. Where's that baby now? There's a couple of scenes. I think there's a scene, isn't there, where she's holding the baby and she kind of shouts at someone. And clearly the baby is absolutely kind of like shocked by it and starts to cry. And then she's carrying on the scene and kind of taking care of the crying baby.

And you kind of go, and my first thought when I first saw that, my first thought was, is that her baby? Because it felt so, her connection to the way she was just handling the child while she was doing something. And, you know, you see mothers, you know, you see mums doing that all the time, you know. But it was so seamless somehow. She ceased to feel like an actor coping in a scene. And she was still committed to the scene and taking care of the children. I thought it was absolutely brilliant. We always talk about on-screen chemistry, but it's usually romantic relationships.

Apparently between mothers and babies. I mean the chemistry between Julia Roberts and this baby. It was two babies. It was twins, which usually is what happens when there's a baby that has to be in a movie. I had to do that on a movie once. I had a baby, a little month's old, and we had twins. Yeah. But sadly, one of them had a sort of, it was a temporary thing.

Apparently it happens a lot when babies are born. One of them had a kind of lump. A misshapen head. A slightly misshapen head, which was going, it was going down. It was something to do with the fontanelle getting squeezed when, during the delivery or something. And so it's not a problem. But because it was quite prominent, quite quite pronounced when they swapped the babies over they realized oh we've got an issue here because one baby's got a normal shape so what they did

is they put both babies in these terrible hats and i kept and i kept saying to the direct i said at one point the draft said you know i don't know about you mate but, but when I brought my baby home, I would take the hat off. Oh, we can't take the hat off because when we swap the babies over, the other one's got a great big lump on its head. But yeah, but that twin thing is interesting because they're not necessarily the same. They're not always identical. They have very different temperaments. I love a lumpy head-based continuity error. I think that would be a first.

How cool would that be to be the person who goes into the continuity and be like, one of the babies seemed lumpy in some scenes but smooth in others. That's just cruel. So I saw the movie and I liked it and that is my history with it yeah this is one of my mom's favorite oh yeah because i was too young to see this movie when it came out but my mom and one of her many uh vhs hills she'd die on aaron brockovich was one of them and my my mom's vhs hills to die on as you know, are hit or miss. I would say she loves Erin Brockovich just as much as she loves What Women Want. But, you know, we're all works in progress.

It's true. We're all figuring things out. But, yes, so she loves this movie as well. Shall I do the recap of the story? Let's recap. All right. And feel free to comment at any point in the recap. Yes.

We grant you permission. Yes. Okay. free to comment at any time thank you yes we grant you permission yes okay so erin brockovich is a single mother um and she is unemployed she is financially broke we see her get into a car accident that is clearly not her fault within the first few minutes of the film and she does not get a settlement from this accident and she's calling her lawyer ed maizery that of course is albert finney's character right and then part of the reason that she doesn't get the settlement in the way the movie makes clear is because the jury is biased against her because she's a single mom because she doesn't have a job right now and so they frame it like right well you

got into an accident on purpose twice and right use like everything about her to explain why she did it on purpose and why it wasn't an accident even though it was right so a little bit later she goes into her attorney's office and demands a job and he doesn't know what to do he's just like okay he's reluctant but she steamrolls him it's fun to watch oh you can't resist that crimson tide you can't resist it it's irresistible um meanwhile she meets her neighbor george he's a biker dude played by aaron eckhart he's aaron eckhart with a rat tail it's wild you don see it coming. And then all of a sudden it's there. And you're like, all right, I'm in this. Aaron Eckhart with a rat tail.

I've already seen him as I Frankenstein. I'm down for this too. I love I Frankenstein, man. You're the only person in the world who saw it a million times. Loved it. So she's at work and she is doing a lot of filing at this law office and she's going over a real estate file and there's a case that has a bunch of medical records in it which doesn't make sense to be in a real estate case so she starts to investigate it she goes to the town

of hinkley california to a woman's home donna jensen she's the person who like filed the case and she's like by Mark Helgenberger Donna yes yes and um she says that the Pacific Gas and Electric Company are trying to buy her home but she and her husband don't want to sell it. And they are also both sick. And PG&E covered their medical bills. And Erin's like, wait a minute, that's... Perhaps these two things are related. Yeah. And then Donna's like, well, it's because of the chromium. And we're like, what?

What is chromium? It sounds like... It sounds bad. Yeah. It sounds like something... It's like movie science. Movie science is not really science. You've just got to find a word that sounds either bad or dangerous or mysterious.

You know, it's like when we did Spider-Man 2. I was just going to say it sounds like tritium. Tritium. What the heck is that? You know, you could take a word off the ingredients in washing powder and you could make it sound like some mysterious science. It really doesn't sound good. You don't know what it is.

But I think the reason why we buy chromium in the movie is because there's that little thing that the director decided to do that when she mentions the word for the first time, there's a little bit of air around it. Yeah. And it's like she kind of goes, it was the chromium. The chromium. And then there's this like, then it cuts away to Erin kind of going,

she's thinking, what the hell's that? Yeah. Chromium. Giving us, you know, the audience to think, oh, it doesn't sound good. You know, it's kind of clever. Yeah. It's good storytelling. It could also be in a superhero movie, the chromium.

Yeah. I mean, I could say something to you like, yeah, my kids are really sick. It's the fluoride. And then someone goes, fluoride? Yeah. Then suddenly everyone's kind of panicking about fluoride. They're like, they told us it was healthy, but now we're all sick. They said it was in, but now we're all sick. Exactly.

They said it was in our toothpaste on purpose. We've all been lied to. It's in your toothpaste. We're all decaying from the inside out. There's no hope. And it seems like the chromium can very easily become sort of like this. I don't know. I liked how the chromium can very easily become sort of like this. I don't know. I liked how the chromium was handled.

At least it made sense in story. Because I feel like often when a mysterious substance is introduced into a movie, it all of a sudden is just like, well, we've got to get rid of this substance. What do we do? Or it's either we have to get it or we have to destroy it. Right. But the chromium is just sort of consistent. It's more like we just have to get it or we have to destroy it. Right. But the chromium is just sort of consistent. It's more like we just have to avoid it.

They're still bathing in the chromium for most of the movie. There's kids in pools full of chromium. Yeah. Yeah. So she, so Erin Brockovich starts to research what this is. And she finds out that chromium six is the bad kind. It's very toxic. I know. that chromium 6 is the bad kind it's very toxic i know what's the it's a chromium hex hexitate

something i don't know it sounded dangerous it sounds like what is the red dye that fucks you up which is that one red dye number oh i don't remember which there's a red dye that is not good and anytime i hear about a red dye it's bad yeah love potion number nine that's pretty bad too that's horrible yeah that's the worst scary that's the worst one of all it's red dye 40 oh where's that from it just does it's bad for you it they put it in a lot of to color food oh i thought you were talking about like a movie where they said Red Dive 40. This is my life. It is in a movie that I'm currently writing where Red Dive 40 is the main antagonist. It kills everyone. It's in like gummy worms and Kool-Aid and stuff.

Oh, yeah. Our children are... Anyways, now I'm going to just put on like a tin and hat and go full chromium six on everyone. So she learns how toxic it is and how it probably caused all of the medical problems that Donna Jensen and her husband have. And she also finds out that the utility plants that PG&E are operating put this chromium six in their water because it like prevents rust and corrosion of their engines and then that seeps into the groundwater um so right she starts to poke around she goes to the local water board for records that might tell her something and she discovers that there was like this order for a cleanup that happened and that all of this area around Hinkley California was contaminated with

chromium six right and then we find out this was one of the story points that I'm like I wonder how based in the actual story of Erin Brockovich this was because this threw me a little bit where apparently this whole time that she's been she's been investigating the story for about a week, but she didn't tell her boss or something? Like, Albert Finney didn't understand why she wasn't at work? Well, he seems to never check his messages. That's true. Because she went off researching, and she was away.

Because she comes back, and he says to her in the scene, you've been away, you know, you got fired because you've been away a week. Yeah, yeah. And she, am I remembering right, that she told someone in the office that she was going, but the message wasn't relayed to him. So he just assumed that she wasn't turning up for work. Something like that, right. But that's another thing about the movie that I thought was really interesting, is that in the early scenes when she's working,

because she dresses in a kind of slightly more provocative way in a more kind of you know she's not all buttoned up like all the other women in the office there's not a lot of support for her particularly from the women in the office yeah she's like in she's at loggerheads with them almost immediately yeah and which I thought was which I always thought was like a really interesting dimension in the story that you know she doesn't get a lot of support in terms of what she's fighting for or what she's dealing with in her own life. Yeah, that's one of the elements of this character that I thought was interesting and at times a little bit confusing,

where women seem to, in the world of this movie, relate to each other based on class versus anything else and a lot of movies take a lot of different stances on like how are the people interacting but there seems to be a lot of especially once they start to get into the weeds of this case like when i wrote down in my notes is like erin brockovich is the poor people whisperer because no one else knows how to talk to normal people in this movie except for her. And so when she encounters not wealthy people, like middle class people who work office jobs versus service jobs, they just don't know what to do with her at all.

And then she goes full Erin Brockovich and is like, fuck you. Fuck you, my tits are out. And you're like, all right, cool. That's fine too. But she's able to communicate. I was worried when so early all the women in the office don't like her. I was like, oh, I hope it's not that kind of movie

where just the women are constantly at odds and there's not a lot of explanation as to why and there's no nuance. But then when you see her interact with all the women who are chromium affected, she is very empathetic towards them and gets along with them and generally gets along with the women in her neighborhood. And she's a good mom. But it seems like the friction between, I mean, not just women, like characters in general are mostly class based. Yeah. And we can talk more about that a little bit later.

But yeah, that's definitely something that like went off in my head. A Bechdel alert, if you will. So she gets fired. And meanwhile, she kisses her neighbor, George. And they're starting to, you know, canoodle a little bit. We'll braid that cart. Winds are over. Free babysitting.

Pretty sick. He turns into like almost like the perfect partner. For a while there. I mean, you know, he does all the babysitting. He does all the cooking. He's kind of looking. He's daycare. He sticks in your sink.

He's like daycare. He's like a cool daycare guy. And he's like, it's on the house. But then the thing that really disappointed me is the way, I don't know why the writers felt this was necessary. Why? I mean, I can understand a relationship not working out. But why? That's the first thing he throws back in her face.

Especially because he offered to look after her kids in the first place. That's the first thing. Well, you know, oh, yeah, well, I've been doing this. I can't remember the exact words. But he's basically kind of saying, well, I've been doing all this and you haven't appreciated it. And every time that bit comes up, I'm always disappointed in that because it could have been so much more interesting just to see the fact that this relationship just doesn't work for all kinds of reasons. Right, right. But he has to throw that in her face, which I always feel is kind of unfair. Yeah, like he's punished.

Because he did, I mean, like you were saying, Caitlin, he does offer. He offered it, yeah. He like insists. He's like, I like your kids. And then he has this weird, I don't know, what was his job again? Because he's like, I work when I need to work.

Oh, construction. Oh, okay. So he's like, I don't need to work right now and I like your kids and they like me so I can do this. So it's never like she doesn't, she goes to other babys I like your kids and they like me so I can do this so it's never like she doesn't she goes to other babysitters kind of at the end of her rope but never him he's always fine to do it

but then yeah he just throws it in her face holds her career against her yeah that's another thing we can definitely fully unpack yeah George not so fabulous now even with the rat tail huh not so great. God damn it.

Darn it. Did I burst a bubble there? I'm sorry. Okay, so she's kissed in George. And then the lawyer at Mazery comes back and he's like, hey, any chance you might have been on to something with this PG&E thing? And she's like, well, funny that you should ask because yes, I was on to something with this pg and e thing and she's like well funny that you should ask because yes i was on to something negotiate she negotiates and she's like give me a raise and i want benefits while hanging out with the baby her baby yeah the baby gives her strength with which to negotiate so nonchalant in that scene and she does that more

than once doesn't she she uses that negotiating ploy more than once. Yeah. And I think it's a great piece of storytelling because what it does, it keeps us as the audience connected to the fact that she's a working woman. Yeah. She's a single mother. She's not all kind of – it's not all about the nobility of the cause. There's a very practical – there's a very real reason why she's doing this you know yeah and i i that's what i love about it i love i love that she's she never stops being you know a woman who's like really working hard for herself and for her family i love that that was something that i i

thought was interesting and made the character a little more nuanced because it would be very easy to write this character of like she's a crusader for what is right and she's and she does do what's right which also happens to be advantageous to her in the to you know to the tune of 2.5 million dollars but i i thought it was interesting that she is really on to something with this chromium six thing but then when she gets fired she drops it and she's like if if it were sort of a more truth crusader kind of role, I feel like she would have been like, well, I don't care. But she's like, no, I have three kids to raise. If you're not going to pay me, I'm not going to do it. And then once he compensates her fairly, she resumes.

I don't know. I thought that was cool. I was like, yeah, you shouldn't do things when you're not paid. I forgot that. We as artists are often told to the contrary. Yeah. So she negotiates for her to get her job back. And meanwhile, PG&E is like, all right, fine.

We'll pay $250,000 for the Jensen home. Albert Finney's like, nah. No thanks. So then Aaron is approached by another couple who used to live by the Jensens, and their chickens were born all deformed. Some gnarly chicken imagery. Yeah. Some brutal, some brutal chicken.

And the woman has had several miscarriages, and they're wondering if the chromium might have affected them as well. Chromium, you rascal. Damn it, chromium. God damn it, chromium might have affected them as well chromium you rascal oh damn it chromium damn it chromium so then aaron and masery start to build a case first they have like a handful of clients then they've got like a dozen and then it's hundreds basically like what started out as a small real estate dispute ends up in this huge lawsuit against pg and he's like over 600 people yeah by the end yeah and so meanwhile her job is making her so busy that she's not dedicating enough time to her children and her neighbor slash boyfriend george i think eventually when they once they

flash forward nine months i'm like i guess they're official it seems like they're yeah but that's one of the things i want to talk about is their romantic relationship but we'll get there in a moment um so she's kind of you know she's missing out on some core moments and like she misses her uh baby daughter's first words her baby's first word savagely is bowl but all i thought was ball oh no i thought it was bowl i can't remember i think she pointed it i was watching it with subtitles and the subtitle says ball damn i thought i was i was like you watched it with subtitles i watch everything i watch with subtitles you do yeah can i ask may i ask why i just find that i understand what's being said easier with do you find do you find though that you're spending

all your time reading rather than watching the image i've gotten pretty good at switching back and forth between the two between like reading and looking at the images yeah my i'm curious because my partner does the same thing and i thought at first it was because we were watching a couple of movies where there was like a very strong there was very strong scottish accents and i thought me oh maybe she's just having trouble with the accent but actually she does it with everything i do it with everything yeah it's it's and i i can't and i'm always when we're watching something together i'm invariably like this with my hand up oh because you find it distracting just yeah

but but i don't find it distracting if i'm watching a foreign film in a language that i don't understand right yeah if i'm watching a japanese movie or a you know a polish film the the subtitles don't find it distracting if I'm watching a foreign film in a language that I don't understand. Right, yeah. If I'm watching a Japanese movie or a Polish film, the subtitles don't bother me then. But when it's in English or a language I speak, I find it distracting. It's weird. I think the first movie I did it for was The Full Monty. And then I kept... Because those accents were difficult to understand. Even I didn't for The Full Monty.

I'm really hard to crack without subtitles. And then I was like, wait a minute, I understand what people are saying so much better when the subtitles are on, so I just started doing it for every movie I watch. I think I pay closer attention if the subtitles are on. Like if I'm watching something that I know I need to really pay attention to what's being said, I'll do it.

But if I'm just watching something for fun, but I'm so easily distracted. Does it have something to do with the fact that you're a writer i think so yeah because i seeing the word somehow you know wanting to write the crispest uh most polished dialogue that i'm like what are they what are they saying these people do yeah i just want to see chromium spelled out as many times as possible um we need to take a quick break but but then we'll come right back and talk more. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered.

There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice.

And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it, like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, you get your podcasts. queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh my god. I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know.

I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. I'm really good at karaoke. And on cameras. Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person?

I got to hawk this slalom, Luge. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my flock, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So to finish up the story, Erin, you know, her career is taking off.

Her personal relationships are not going so well. George is fed up with her and he's like, either leave your job or I'm leaving. And she refuses to leave her job. So he skedaddles and then Ed Mazury brings in a partner. Without checking with her. And then he has to get her a car. Right. partner um without checking with her and then he has to get her a car right right this case has just become so big that they need more help and more finances to cover the expenses and things

like that and then erin gets off on the wrong foot with uh the new lawyer that his name is kurt potter his colleague theresa there's a whole thing there. There's class issues radiating from every interaction they have. And then they also need proof that shows that PG&E headquarters in San Francisco knew about the polluted water in Hinkley. So they're like looking for that piece of evidence. Here's that part. OK, are we getting up to the part where the guy at the bar has the documents? Pretty close. So a little bit before that. That part is very weird are we getting up to the part where the guy at the bar has the documents? Pretty close. So a little bit before that.

That part is very weird. Erin's going around. She has to get all the clients to agree to a binding arbitration, which basically means that the case will only be tried in front of a judge. There's no jury. But if they win, they'll get the money a lot quicker. So everyone thinks that that's the best idea except for most of the clients because they're just like, what did I don't even know like i thought we were going to a trial with a jury and

everything so she has to go and convince everyone that this is the best uh course of action because otherwise i'll get sicker faster right exactly a trial could last like decades basically um but then this this guy who is creepy as hell this is okay this is nuts to me because i had to watch this scene twice just to make sure i was getting it because we've seen this guy i think twice by the time he shows up in the bar and both times he's like staring at her in a way i definitely interpret it as like leering at her it is like nefarious yeah yeah like it was like this is the creepy guy with the hat i don't know who plays this part he plays it very well because i was like this guy's freaky and then he shows up in the bar and it literally for for me it seems like he's going all the way up to him like he's about to

put something in her drink he's like gonna do something creepy yeah and then he all of a sudden becomes this like god in the machine of like no i'm not a pervert i have the documents that are gonna make you a millionaire you're like why that was just such a weird choice yeah my first instinct was that he was a he was like a plant from uh from the company the electric company yeah he was going to he was like you know know, but it's the way he behaves that is what's so weird. But I wondered if, I kept thinking maybe that's the actor's choice. Right. You know, and maybe on the day, you know, sort of he was convincing.

But it seemed, it does seem like it's an odd beat in a film that doesn't have any other element like that. Yeah. seem like it's an odd beat in a film that doesn't have any other element like that yeah the whole film is is rooted in a kind of realism and a sort of you know a logic that that kind of you know you can follow then suddenly there's this weird thing i think yeah i mean you think it's like is he creepy is he is he a perv is he and then also when he when he finally reveals the fact that he's got this information yeah even that's done in a kind of way. I thought any minute now he's going to say, so what do I get out of it? I thought, oh, no, it's going to be one of those scenes, you know, sort of. But luckily it wasn't.

But it's an odd beat, you're right. It's a strange beat because every other situation where a man gives or really anyone gives Aaron Brockovich, you you know guff about anything she hands it right back to them and it's resolved pretty quickly most of the time but this guy she she's like yeah sure can i get you a beer and then i don't know he went from like creepy as hell to my cousin is dead and i have the documents you need in less than a minute you're just like sure that was like the one beat of this movie that i could not make heads or tails well my read of it is and i skipped over this part in the recap but she receives an ominous phone call at some point whenever someone is basically making threats toward her like don't snoop around the water records or

because you've got three young children we wouldn't want anything to happen to them now would we um and it does not deter her in any way um don't you ever phone me with that voice that is the scariest thing i think i've heard yeah but i i thought maybe the movie was making us the audience think that oh this is that creepy guy who called her and threatened her. But it turns out he was... They're not the same guy. No, no. They're not the same guy, is it? That's right. That's weird.

That character just threw me entirely. I mean, and once she gets the documents, you know, the movie resolves sort of in the way that is consistent with the rest of the movie. Right. It's just weird, weird beat, don't you? Yeah, because that's pretty much toward the end. They've gotten all the signatures they need so that they can go to the arbitration. They get the proof.

They win. The clients are awarded a total of $333 million to be split among them. Is that before or after the 40%? I would guess that's before. So little old Ed Masry made out like a bandit. And Aaron gets a bonus of like $2 or $2.5 million or something like that. And that is essentially the end of the movie. Oh, I wish I'd seen it. Sounds good, right?

Sounds fun. I said that was great. Twists and turns. So where do we want to start with our discussion? I don't know. There's a lot of stuff to pick apart here. What did you have in mind? Well, the first thing I kind of wanted to bring up is, so this is, I don't know if you could call it a biopic, really, but it's a movie based on a true story about a real woman, Erin Brockovich, who is still championing environmental issues to this day.

So environmental icon, Erin Brockovich. one of our matrion bonus episodes that there are countless biopics or movies based on true stories that are about men and so much fewer ones that are about women absolutely you can kind of count on two hands the famous ones that are kind of in everyone's wheelhouse that are about women and then there's you're in one of them frida frida one of the best uh but there's yeah i mean statistically it's way way way way low yeah and so i think it's impressive especially for the time it came out i mean i have to imagine and and when i was reading up on the history of this movie even with jul Julia Roberts' star power, this movie was still sort of viewed as a risk. And I guess during, while it was being tested, there was some audience feedback that was

like, we love Erin Brockovich. She's the best. And there were other people that were like, why is she swearing so much? I wish she wasn't saying these bad words. Girls don't say those words man yeah and so but but i mean it seems like at least a lot of it stayed and so i mean that alone seems like a pretty big accomplishment especially for 2000 because who knows what was going on in 2000 i was in third grade i don't know i was 14 and what women want was coming out and disappointing us all

the hit of the century but um yeah i am gonna be inclined to just appreciate any sort of like true story based on a woman because there are so few of them even today still i mean we've got our you know ruth bader ginsburg pick coming out but there's just so few can you ever forgives me and there's right love that one and but there's always going to be the argument well you know women haven't contributed as much to society so that's why we don't make movies about them and it's like who says that do people still say that like yeah men's rights activists and you know know. Men's rights activists? Oh, yeah.

Is that such a thing? The MRAs. Men's rights? Yeah, there are people who hate women. What kind of crap is that? Totally agree. Is that a thing? Seriously, I'm not being disingenuous.

Is that a thing, men's rights? There's like an organization. Oh, do me a favor. The MRA movement. Do me a favor. It's still, I mean, it's like most prevalent oh do me a favor do me a favor it's still i mean it's like most prevalent on the cowardliest corners of the internet but it leaks into the real world as well mras i mean we we sometimes get spammed like online by mras just absolutely

dumping on i mean the thing with mras is they have a lot of free time so if i said something like most men are stupid they would not be happy said something like most men are stupid. They would not be happy with you. Okay, most men are stupid. You're not wrong. No, but here's something I'm interested in. See your perspective on it. Very often with films where you have a female protagonist who is pushing the story.

It's often, as in Erin Brock, a woman with a cause, with a reason to pursue something, an injustice of some kind. Or it could be like in the Sally Field film, when she becomes a trade unionist. Oh, Norma. Norma G. Yes, yes, yes. And those are very, the stakes in the story are always very, very clear.

But I've noticed very often that the woman in question has to be peculiar in some way or different or has to stand out in some way from other women. Right. In order to make it valid. So with Norma Rae, she's aggressive. She's kind of feisty. She upsets people and doesn't care. And the same thing with Erin Brockovich to a certain extent. She dresses in a more revealing way.

She's kind of much more kind of, you know, and I think that scene, sort of the zenith of that in Erin Brockovich is that scene when they meet the partners from the fancy white shoe lawyers. And I think it's Vianne Cox who plays the young female attorney who's all done up in the business suit. She's all kind of very sort of stiff. Prim. She does a great job. And they have that in that scene when she just lets her have it. But there always has to be something. It's very rare that they're just women, you know.

Right, yeah. There has to be something extraordinary about them. It can get a little cartoony at times. I was taking some notes to this and I don't even know exactly how to articulate it because I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that there's an outspoken female protagonist that is like really getting into the workplace aggressively she's unapologetic and she's really going for it and balls to the wall a hundred percent of the time I think it's weird that there isn't more diversity in storytelling of like how a realistic workplace would work. I don't know how much of Erin Brockovich is directly how the real Erin Brockovich acted and behaved.

I have to imagine it's a little heightened because so often to even remain employed, women have to work, you know, normally work subtly and play the game to an extent and get work done behind the scenes but you don't really see that in movies very often i mean the first thing that jumps to my mind of something that even begins to reflect that would be hidden figures right of like women who are doing doing the real work but are not appreciated which seems like more of a reflection of real life but i guess i mean even with erin she doesn't get i mean you have to imagine that like masry made way more money than than she did oh certainly it seems like they were pretty much doing the same job but oh she was probably actually doing more work than yeah yeah she was going in a bog picking up a frog

a bog and a frog my new podcast coming out on How Stuff Works. Wasn't on purpose. But happens. Right. But also, she's also, throughout the movie, whenever she's trying to get something, either information or, you know, trying to get something to enhance her case, she's dealing with different kinds of men and she has to find a way to ingratiate herself with all those men in a way that they will respond to so when she goes when she goes to meet the clerk who's a bit kind of you know a bit slow and a bit kind of you know deer in the headlights and she kind of like you know just leans over and gives him a perfect view of her cleavage.

Ever seen Boob before? There's all that going on. Horny doofus. And it's, whereas when the role is a male role, that's never a concern. Right. You're just a guy coming in saying, I need this, I need that, you know. There's never a question that you'll get what you need. That's right.

It's almost as if society respects men more than they do women. I know. Crazy, isn't it? Society respects men more than they do women. I mean, the way Erin's sexuality is handled is interesting to me. I mean, we were talking about this a little bit earlier today, where this movie sort of straddles second and third wave feminism for me, where second wave is focused on women in the workplace, and then third wave is more about embracing sexuality and being open about it. So this is somewhere in the middle of that, which makes sense for the time it takes place and uh but there are moments with i don't know there are ways to interpret erin using her sexuality to get something accomplished that i understand could be viewed as almost like a regressive femme fatale kind of thing like lean forward and get the information.

I don't know. It's tricky in the context of I would understand if someone had that criticism as a negative. so many other ways where she's with any given person she seems very smart at reading a person and then doing whatever she has to to get what she needs from them in a few in like one one or two cases that's the lean forward and it does get like a little cheesy where i think at one point she tells albert finney like it's called boobs're like, okay, fine. But there's other times where she's, you know, frog in the bog. There's other times where she's, like, busting her ass going door to door. And you see her be capable in all these different ways that it does seem like, I don't know, like what you were saying earlier,

like she's going to get the job done and get paid. One of my favorites is when she's talking to i forget exactly what who exactly it is but it's someone who represents the gas and electric company and she's saying something like oh well how much is your spine worth to you and whatever number you're thinking multiply it by a hundred and then come back to it like she's she's using like i mean it's kind of aggressive and wild but it's also like she's really kicking ass with getting her point across. I love the scene where she gives him the water.

Oh, I was going to say that. That is such a brilliant moment. I remember when I saw the movie, that got a huge cheer. Really? Yeah. That's definitely like a big applause break moment in the theater. What you were touching on earlier, Alfred,

when you were saying about how, you know, movies with a female protagonist, you know, she's got to be something outstanding, or just like something kind of extraordinary or unusual about her. And I feel like that's kind of exemplary of the attitude, at least of this time that this movie came out, and still to probably a pretty big extent today, people and society at large because of the patriarchy think that women aren't capable and you know every women are just kind of there and we're not doing much but you know we've got an exception to the rule with someone like aaron brockovich so it's almost i feel like that might be part of the reason that those characters are

portrayed that way where it's like you know we yeah women are generally pretty average or you know whatever but every once in a while once in a while one comes along and i feel like that might be an example of that attitude that's a good point yeah and i think it's it's it's an interesting contrast to see what's happened in the last 25 years since that movie was released, how in the realm of, of, you know, cultural politics,

sexual politics, feminism, whichever wave we're on now, I think we're like, maybe like the fourth, fourth or fifth wave. You know, it's,

it's, you know, things have changed so quickly and so exponentially that I think if a movie like Aaron Brockovich was now being pitched, I think that it would be a very different film. Yeah. And I think there'd be, I think some of the dynamics that make the film so extraordinary to us now might not even exist.

Like, for instance, the relationship between her and her boss. You know, in the 25 years since the film was made, actually laws have actually changed, you know, to protect women in the workplace and so on. So I think there's a, in a way, it's a, it's a period piece, in a way, but it but it's a period piece that kind of shines a light on, you know, what was to come, you know, and that's what made that also, for me makes it kind of, you know, really quite a quite a valuable film in that regard. Yeah, and fully a product of its time as well.

I think this movie would also be much less yellowy orange if it were remade today. Hard to say. A dusty-looking movie. I think something that would definitely be different if it were remade now was, and we were sort of touching on this earlier, was how she interacts with the women in her

workplace yes uh because that was like one of the only moments where i was like she's being pretty mean like she she like she's fat shames one of her co-workers she's i mean and and i but doesn't she do that as a kind of retaliation for something else yeah yeah the way the women that doesn't justify it but you know but it isn't i mean and erin's character is so she retaliates immediately to protect herself and that's like whatever part of who she is but it's it's i i think hopefully if it was made now we would at least understand where those women are even if they don't like each other we would understand where those women are coming from more because it's sort of flattened in the movie where we get to know masry so well and and grow to love him and that's great and and i mean you there's a professional respect between

the two of them but you don't other than kind of a pretty reductive like she dresses provocatively and we think that's gross like that is sort of the only reason we're given and that she's not good at her job at first which kind of makes sense it's like there's that scene where she goes up to her co-worker i think her name's anna yes and erin's like how do i do my job again and anna's like see ya and so i don't i read that differently where erin is asking a legitimate question where she's like, hey, you know, she probably I feel like she probably knows how to do her job well at this point. But she wouldn't understand why there would be medical files in with this real estate case. So she's like, hey, can I get clarification on this? where if there are women working together or interacting in some way they've got to be pitted

against each other because of society or whatever reasons we've decided that but like so yeah she's like well i'm not if she would just like if anna had just listened to erin and be like oh wait that is weird that file would be in with the real estate case but instead she's just like very dismissive of her assumes that she's incompetent so yeah i feel like between that and between the various cases where there's another uh person in the office her name is brenda that's who erin fat shames on a few different occasions it just yeah i couldn't help but notice that she has what it feels like largely antagonistic relationships with all the women in her office and then later with the character's name is Teresa she's like the you know upscale attorney lady who gets brought on to the case later on yeah that that to me was like a combo of class

and gender issues because there are two lawyers in the room and she goes after the woman in the room she's supposed to be working with which kind of is one of the more problematic elements of erin's character she doesn't work well with women she just doesn't seem to right that scene was really interesting to me because in one way like we know erin at this point we understand where she's coming from she's very like defensive about people assume she's incompetent all the time and she's like no i know this case inside out yeah but you also see where teresa's coming from where you know and and i and and masry kind of breaks this down i wish that it was more

of a conversation between the female characters and that they were able to talk to each other but masry is the character who explains like well she went to like she you know grinded through law school and and has been taking shit and lesser jobs than she deserves for years so this is why she's frustrated and you you can sort of see it from from both perspectives but it's not really resolved ever between the characters i thought that would have been interesting if they had yeah because for if it was men involved yeah there'd be there'd be a scene where the two the two men who have butted heads end up in a bar

right and over a couple of drinks or a couple of beers they kind of work things out yeah and you know what I really respect you know and they end up and they end up becoming allies in some way yeah but yeah it doesn't happen in you you know, you're right. But that's what I mean.

Now, if we were making the movie now, that scene might happen. I hope so. I'd hope so. Because that was an interesting dynamic that kind of was left. Because the only other time you see Teresa is they sort of start to imply that she's incompetent, which also doesn't quite match up. They're like, well, she can't walk around a farm, so she's an idiot. I think the idea is she doesn't connect well with people. She's not a people person the way that Erin is.

Poor people whisper. That's like, yeah. But also, doesn't Teresa get a little bit sort of patronized by her boss? Yeah. Peter Coyote's character there's a little dynamic in there which happens in front of erin and and ed and i think it creates that little moment of she's like embarrassed right you know which kind of creates a sort of tension there's lots of beautiful little interactive moments like that for sure yeah uh we've got to take another quick

break but then we will come right back definitely caruana galicia was a maltese investigative journalist who on october 16th 2017 was murdered there are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente.

And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions, like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes.

Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it, like you miss 100% of the shots you never take?

Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. or wherever you get your podcasts. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.

I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hanken's thing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song?

Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Lugie. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it.

It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kind of going back to just sort of her general behavior and background and different things like that. We touched on this a little bit already, but Erin does dress in ways that could be considered provocative or perhaps, you know, inappropriate for a law office. There's so much leather, sleeveless leather. We see her bra a lot.

All of my aunties. We see her cleavage a lot and i don't want to sound like i'm shaming her for dressing this way by any means because i'm certainly not um they're good fits but yeah she's rocking the look but it's often used as an excuse by various other characters to not take her seriously yeah to the extent where well first of all the ed mazer character says something like um you know now that you work here you might want to reconsider what you're wearing it makes the other women uncomfortable and i feel like that might have been true but i also think that he's placing the blame he's projecting yeah and he it makes him uncomfortable and he please stop making me

horny at work i'm confused then she she's got that wonderful rejoinder about his ties yeah which is so kind of funny i love yeah and then later on the reason he admits that the reason that he fires her is because she left and didn't check in enough according to the people who work at the law office uh and then he's like well you know i thought you were just off having fun you look like someone yeah who just has fun but then as aaron brockovich often does she comes right back with some the retort of like oh well if we're making assumptions based on how you look then you must never get laid so swish i like that she's always challenging these comments about

her appearance and the way she dresses yeah i really love that and then if we're if we're getting into the way that that translates to her relationship with aaron eckhart with braid is i believe the character's name and how it's referred to in the movie this was one of those movies that was tricky of like did this movie need a romantic subplot i think technically it didn't but it did in some ways help flesh out aaron's character more i don't i don't know what did you what did what did everyone make of that relationship well if i might i i think if it wasn't the relationship with george then it would have been it would have to have been a relationship with someone or something else in order to balance her life at work her life you know on the case as it were right because otherwise then she really

would have been just very one-dimensional right and i think the uh the choice that she has this kind of biker kind of you know semi-employed guy living next door that she gets involved with was, I'm assuming, must have felt like a suitable contrast to what she was dealing with professionally. Right. You know, and it also, it gives her a kind of, there's a, I don't know, I know it sounds weird, but there's a kind of, there's a slight whiff of adventure about about that relationship because it's all about being able to just take off. You know, the houses are restored trailers. He's got a bike and a truck. You know, there's a sense that he embodies the possibility of just taking off. Yeah.

And that's very deeply ingrained in the kind of American psyche. So that kind of gives her a sort of specialness in comparison to the people who she works with or the women at work with Ed himself who all seem so kind of anchored to their lives. Because I think more than once Ed says justifies the fact that he's married yeah because i'm married i got a family i got key you know he's like as if somehow almost with an air of like resentment almost you know i can't have fun like you do i'm married you know right you know and and i think that's so i think it was a convenient way of balancing her as a character in the world. Yeah, yeah.

I agree with that. My main takeaway from it was that, and I think I might have touched on this briefly in the recap, but as we see her excelling in her professional life, her romantic and personal life are deteriorating at the same exact time. So it almost... Common theme for female protection right and it's great that she stands up for herself because she's he's basically like leave this job or i'm gonna leave you and she stands her ground and she says nope i'm not leaving this job so it's great that she's standing up for herself and it is i would say fairly realistic that a man isn't okay when a woman is working hard and maybe resenting the fact that she has a job and is putting a lot of effort into it.

But it just, it does suck that we have to see her personal life fall apart just as her professional life is taking off. Yeah, that breakup scene with them, I thought was really, my two favorite scenes between them were when they met and when they broke up. I could kind of take or leave the rest because there was an element of his character somewhere in the middle where I'm like, he's a little bit too perfect. Like, he's like, I'll do whatever. I love you, go to work, whatever. Like, there's not a lot of friction until there very much is yeah but uh in in their breakup scene i thought that that as frustrating as it is it felt probably realistic of that time to happen and it did seem like the movie commented on it enough where aaron is pushing back and you know he has the benefit unlike her of like if he's not happy taking care of children all the time, he can leave.

Right. Which is what's already happened to her twice and sort of what she's conditioned to expect from men who express interest in being with her is they can eventually leave because they feel like they're able to and it's societally okay to do so. And the fact that he does that was interesting and like you i don't know i didn't see it coming but when it happened it made sense where he's just not you know he is kind of presented as like this gentle but like macho biker guy who starts to feel like he's being too domestic and he doesn't feel appreciated for the work he does at home, which is not usually a complaint coming from the male partner. And it's interesting to hear that. But you never hear a female partner say, I don't feel appreciated at home.

I'm doing all this work and I feel like you're taking a dump on me all the time. That is like could be anyone. But his benefit is like, so I'm leaving because I can. And when she says like, he's like, what can I do to prove to you that I'm not like those other men? She's like, don't leave. Stay. That was great. And he leaves anyways because men are cowards.

That was great. And I really enjoyed, I wanted to talk about the scene where they meet too. First of all, that scene starts. He was pushy. Yeah. He was so pushy. Yeah. I mean, talk about not taking no for an answer.

Oh, yeah. I mean, she kept going, I'm busy, I've got kids, I've got this, I've got that. And he just keeps walking up towards her. I think that is one perfect example of how, in the intervening years since that movie was made that that would not fly now yeah i mean it barely flies with aaron right he's very very pushy and does sort of achieve the like wearing her down vibe that is how those movie interactions tend to end it's like yeah he was a little pushy but it's just enthusiastic it's not you know disrespectful because he even says well why don't you give me your number you've all i've already got your Yeah, he was a little pushy, but he's just enthusiastic. It's not, you know, disrespectful.

Because he even says, well, why don't you give me your number? You've all, I've already got your address. You can't get away. That's a scary thing to say. It's a joke, but it's real. I don't know. But the moment I liked in that scene that I thought was like really telling about Aaron's character is she's still very direct and aggressive but she basically lists all the reasons of why she thinks no one would want to be a partner with her which like she just lists off you know she's got kids she's been divorced twice she's broke she's

unemployed she lists off all the reasons that are you know eating her up inside and then flings it in someone else's face of like, well, I'm unlovable, so get off my stoop. Yeah. And I thought that was like a great moment for that character. And then he goes from being creepy to being perfect to being a burnout. And then he kind of comes back at the end. He comes back, which I actually appreciated how the movie handles this because the narrative hardly makes any sort of deal of him showing up again.

Like I feel like in a lot of movies, especially one with a female lead, where romantic storylines are such a huge part of so many movies with a female protagonist that there's often some sort of huge reconciliation scene where they're like, oh,'ve had our problems but now this is it and we're making it work and we're back together there's no such scene like that no it just comes back i don't even think they get back together i think he's she just like called in a favor from him and he's like yeah i'll watch your kids for a few days like i don't even know if they it's ambiguous how it happens but i would he's probably gonna try to chill now that she's a millionaire right we don't know but um yeah i liked how the movie doesn't make some sort of But I would he's probably going to try to chill now that she's a millionaire. I don't know. But yeah, I liked how the movie doesn't make some sort of big deal. I'll even be Mr. Brockovich.

He's like, I know I seemed unwilling to commit before you were a millionaire, but not transparent at all. A couple other just like quick scenes that, you know, made my Bechdel alert go off. Wee-woo, wee-woo. Wee-woo, wee-woo. One of them is the scene where Erin Brockovich is talking to the young girl who has cancer. And she's gone through radiation and she's lost all of her hair. And Erin spends like a minute saying like, oh, you're so beautiful and you must drive all of her hair. And Erin spends like a minute saying like, oh, you're so beautiful

and you must drive all the boys wild. And I understand what her intention is. She's trying to comfort this girl who is sick. But of course, the thing that she uses to comfort her is you're still physically attractive. It's a comment on her appearance. It's a comment on how appearance it's a comment on how she would be valued by her male peers and that is an example of you know what has been historically

done a lot where we place so much emphasis on girls appearance and how they how much they appeal to men and I mean there's not that there is an element of Erin's character that sort of subscribes to that as well. Right. Because we learned that she was like a former beauty queen. Right. Which I did think was an interesting characterization choice where, you know, it's like, oh, she earlier in her life, she it seemed like she was on a conventional track to somewhere and it didn't work out. And now that she's on a conventional track to somewhere and it didn't

work out and now that she's found a different track she's going to really apply herself to make it happen but yeah that that exchange that that you're talking about did seem well-intentioned but dated yes yes i don't think that i think it's far less common now or at least a lot of especially a woman to a young girl, thinks twice before they say, well, you're pretty as a lead. Yeah, definitely. And then the other quick thing that set off my alert was whenever Ed Mazury, toward the end of the movie, he's brought in the fancy lawyers.

And Erin feels like she's being kind of pushed out of participating in the whole case. And, you know, she reacts appropriately and she says, like, you're like you're pushing me out. You didn't tell me anything about this. And then Ed responds by saying, you're emotional. You're erratic. You're seeing everything that comes your mind. You're making this personal and it isn't. And it's just like such a common reaction to a woman expressing anger that is completely justified. And of course, it's often the first thing that gets said is, oh, you're a woman who's reacting.

You're being emotional. You're erratic. You're crazy. And that doesn't, I mean, she challenges it. But, you know, it's just, it's, you know, you can't help but notice these things. Yeah. I don't know how much there is to say about it besides that but i was just like oh a man calling a woman crazy and erratic and emotional that's example number eight bazillion so anyway just wanted to touch on that

very quickly as well yeah i agree yeah was that there anything, any other topics that you wanted to touch on? No, I think I've enjoyed this. I want to go and see it again now. Yay! I want to go and watch it again. I mean, there's so, I love the way that films, particularly films that somehow seem to capture a particular moment in time, a particular, you know, they're infused with whatever the discussion happens to be at that

given moment. I think Erin Brockovich is a kind of, it's a throwback to a movie that might have been made 10 years earlier, but it's doubtful whether it would be treated in quite the same way now. You know, I did a movie recently called St. Judy, which is a similar story about a single mother who is a lawyer and who, you know, fights for a very specific cause and kind of makes a lot of sacrifices along the way. But there's no romantic element. There's no George in the story. There's an ex-husband, but that's it. But there's no kind of romantic thing going on.

And that's an interesting, it's interesting how things evolve that way. But, you know, which is why I said earlier, I mean, I think Erin Brockovich really is a period movie. You know, because it's kind of capturing something that, you know, a moment. It's 25 years. I mean, that's quite a long time in movie in movie terms i mean it takes place in the year 1993 which is the year that jurassic park comes out you see the poster in the kid's bedroom i'm always on the lookout for a jurassic park reference and we get it in this movie so that makes it a terrific masterpiece in my mind does this movie pass the bechdel test? I believe it does, yes. It does, quite a bit.

Yeah. Erin talks to various combinations of women whose names we know and sometimes about men but not always. A lot of times about chromium, which is genderless. But also the scene where she, the very first scene with Mark Helgenberger's character when they talk about the effects of this stuff, she mentions her husband, but only as an example of something that happened to someone. Right.

Because the scene's not really about him. They're not really discussing him. Right, the context is something else. Chromium-based. This is what's been happening. So it does, yeah. And she talks to Brenda in the law office. She talks to Anna.

She talks to her daughters. She talks to the other lawyer, Teresa. Yeah, there's a number of scenes that pass by our standards. And Sheryl Crow is at the end. Every day is a winding road. I'd forgotten that. Perfect ending song.

When that came up, I was like jumping up and down. Yeah, right. Yeah, I remember. I'd yeah yeah i forgot that song bops it's so good right um so yes that's a definite yes i'm passing the bechdel test um let's rate the movie we have a zero to five nipple scale so we rate it based on its portrayal and representation of women, five nipples being the best. I love that. Sacred scale.

Yes. I would say three. Okay. Three nipples. You can also give the nipples to characters in the movie or really anyone you want. Well, I'd definitely give four nipples to Erin to erin okay great yeah what do you what say you i'm gonna go i think i'm gonna go four yeah i think i'm gonna go for it i there's little things that we have already discussed uh that are sort of i think largely product of its time

issues yeah but largely i mean this movie is held up really, really well. You rarely have a leading female character at all, much less a biopic, much less someone who is constantly calling out everyone on the ways that they're marginalizing her in very colorful language. I think the baby's cute. Albert Finney is great aaron eckhart it must be said does have a braid and a leather vest so there's a lot going on i'm i i'm here for it i think it's great i'll give uh two nips to aaron i'll give one nip to Donna Jensen. And I'll toss one to Teresa. There was some unexplored Teresa stuff. Right, yeah. I'm going to go with three and a half nipples.

Can you have half a nipple? Oh, yes. You can revise your answer. No, no, I'm not revising. I'm just thinking about you. Unfortunately, we do have to picture it, too. We bisect nipples quite often. Yeah, three and a half nipples, because while it is a woman who's driving the narrative and she is, you know, a strong headed, brassy woman who does not apologize for her behavior or her her status in life in any way. She has dental insurance. She's got dental. She's a single mom

who, you know, says fuck around her kids often and doesn't give a fuck about it. And she's even though she doesn't have a formal education, which is something that gets brought up as an excuse, another excuse not to take her seriously. You know, she doesn't. She's incredibly smart and hardworking, and she doesn't apologize for anything. And it's also tricky to talk about a movie about a real person because it is hard to tell if certain events or aspects of their character are true depictions or if they're sort of embellishments to heighten the tension

or the conflict or, you know, make for like a tighter cinematic narrative. Superions. But Erin Brockovich, as depicted by Julia Roberts in this movie, is a character that I really enjoy watching. And the real Erin Brockovich, love that she's still doing a bunch of environmental work. Yeah, there's a lot to like about this movie there's a few things that i think it could be handled differently and like you said it's a kind of a product of its time but um yeah i uh i'm gonna go three and a half nipples and they're all going to the dead frog oh good for the frog nipples no it's an amphibian they do now

they do now i'm real dumb. I would like to take the nipple away from Teresa and give it to Sheryl Crow. Sorry. Sure, sure, sure. I understand. Sorry. I just forgot that she was involved in the project. Well, Alfred Molina. Oh, my gosh.

Thank you so much for being here. My absolute pleasure. Life changing. Hopefully we did not freak you out at the beginning of the show. No, no, no. No, I was very flattered, actually. I must admit, I had no idea what you were talking about. But I'm very flattered.

We have merch with your face on it. You have what? It's a cartoon version of you, and it says feminist icon Alfred Molina. Well, I'm very pleased to be a feminist icon. That's fantastic. If you ever see someone out in the wild with a feminist icon Alfred Molina, it is our fault. Fantastic. We can order you a shirt or sticker. Oh, Alfred Molina. It is our fault. Fantastic. We can order you a shirt or sticker.

Oh, look at that. Yeah. Jamie designed it. We'll do the full. We'll do the works. There's pillows. That's weird. You see, I can't wear one.

I'd love to wear. I'd love to. I wish I was someone else now because I wouldn't be able to wear that. Can you imagine walking around like that? It's like walking around with your agent's phone number on the back of your jacket. And trust me, I've tried that. It just doesn't go down well. But that's very flattering.

Thank you very much. I'm delighted. Well, thank you. This has been such an honor and treat for us. Thank you again. Well, then invite me again. Oh, yes. We'd love to have you back.

Anytime. Or the second time, spoil it. Anytime. Come back tomorrow. It doesn't matter. We're here. So do you guys do this every week with a different movie? Yes.

Yes. Oh, great. Cool. That's cool. Yeah. And how long have you been doing the podcast? Two years. Well, over two years, yeah.

Quite some time. We've covered a lot. We did do an episode on Spider-Man 2. You did? Cool, cool. We did Boogie Nights. We did Raiders of the Lost Ark. Yeah, we've done a lot.

Yeah, we've covered a few of your films. Oh, yeah. I've been talking a lot about that lately, that movie. I think it's because I'm getting so old now. It's like nearly 40 years old. It's that kind of people saying things like, so what was it like making movies in those days? Well, it wasn't exactly the silent era.

Well, once again, we've been so honored and thrilled to have you here. Is there anything that you would like to plug? Angel of Vine, which is the podcast that that we've been oliver vacar and i've been working on um oliver is the writer and uh i'm i i'm just i just play a part in it um and it's uh it's it's a great one for film buffs as well because it's it's a it's a sort of noir story it's kind of loosely loosely based on the whole kind of you know um is it the blue or the black black dahlia story? And it's one of those great things.

It's basically like a movie inside your head, you know, and every listener will have their own movie going on. And so that's what we've been, you know, schlepping our tuchuses around town talking about. And that, once again, is The Angel of Vine. of vine angel of vine check out that podcast awesome thank you again so much for being here absolutely my pleasure thank you so much for inviting me thank you we can do our plugs later but um yeah thank you so much and uh we'll we'll we'll be here next week. Yeah. See you next week. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right.

It's just me and Jamie now. Alfred has left. We just wanted to sort of regroup and decompress from what just happened. God, yeah. Fred, Freddy, he's our friend. He's our friend. I think we held it together very well. The dogs are the second Alfred left, my dog picked up on my vibes and pissed and shit on the floor.

But I think we all, you know, while Freddie was in our kingdom, we held we held it together very well. I think we did. And especially you, Jamie. I mean, thank you. You did an incredible job. Thank you. I would say your composure. That was a Matrix episode level of fronting in terms of, oh, I felt like dying. I'm so glad that you brought up the merch because I was terrified, too.

Oh, yes. I also do think that our friend Freddy, as we like to call him, as our friend, has just a calming presence. And it's impossible to be stressed around him. Yeah. Just wanted to shout out Brett Boehm from Forever Dog Podcast Network for helping us to set this up. I mean, I hope it was worth it for everyone. It certainly was for me. I can't cry. Or I would.

Sure. I am very proud of all of us. That was so much fun and really a monumental episode for us. Is the show over? I think we have to end the show. Just kidding. We have a million episodes. No, there's still Haley Joel Osment as well. Yeah, there's still Haley Joel. I'm sure there's a celebrity that I like that we would oh yeah no we've all got a this is why people start podcasts

is to meet people they like and then to gradually stop doing the podcast too real? but anyway so no there's many more episodes of ours to come but this unfortunately was our best one because of Alfred Molina this is the peak so after this

we understand yeah but anyway that was great alfred is such a class act i'm like freaking out and and listen to the angel of vine yes indeed um and speaking of plugging things you can follow us on social media on the platforms at bechtel cast uh please rate and review us on itunes please subscribe to our patreon aka matreon it's five dollars for two bonus episodes a month uh which is a great deal this month we are doing pageantry that's right pageant movies so we're doing dumpling with a special guest to be announced yep and we're also doing drop dead gorgeous the special guest is alfred melina again one of these we actually would like to announce we have a third chair and you heard it he did offer to come back yes and i will you know just send that audio clip to him every once in a while um do you think it's like news breaking that

alfred molina learned what an mra is i just i'm glad we taught him something he's so wise yeah i feel like this was a very educational i think he got more out of this than we did, which is crazy because I'm not the same person I was when I entered. I'm also very much kidding, but my dog is picking up on my vibes in that he is pissed and shit and hump since he arrived. He's just, I, I take full responsibility for the dog today because I'm sending out vibes

that are just sending him into all into horny terror anyway we've got merch i mean now more than ever you have to buy our feminist icon alfred molina merchandise he won't wear it but you you have to just so in case you know you ever if you're in la or you come to, you got to wear it in the off chance that you'll encounter him. And then he can be like, hey, I know that I was on that podcast. So make sure you get that merch at tpublic.com slash the Bechtel cast. God, what a day. What a day.

We can't. Where do we go from here? I'm exhausted. I don't know. I think I need to sleep for like 22 hours uh no i genuinely think i'm gonna listen to the angel of hind this uh this afternoon you gotta yeah so yes unfortunately every episode after this will be disappointing because uh alfred millina will probably not be our guest it's not that we want to try but he did say he'd come back

so maybe he could what is a movie he could do that would be? I like wanted to do something fucked up. If we talk about a movie that no women are in, we would just be forced to have to talk about something else. Like if we did like the Shawshank Redemption or like. You know what? Just tell us your life story. Yeah.

Just how did you get started? And, you know, just tell us everything. It's a good trick. It's a good hack. Anywho. I mean, hopefully if you're a longtime listener, you know what this meant to us. And if this is your first time listening, hopefully it wasn't too confusing. Right.

And we cherish you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for your support. We'll be here next week. Bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption. They're returning her beloved country into a mafia state.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadson. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do,

like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture Eastistas that's right the queen of comedy herself get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful tune in for all the laughs

the stories and of course the culture don't miss Catherine Hahn on Las Culturistas listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network

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