The Bechdel Cast - Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind with Kate Banford

Episode Date: May 17, 2018

Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus have had all memory of the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind episode with guest Kate Banford erased from their memories. Please never mention it to them again (but do listen, it's a dope ep in this doctor's opinion).(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @goodgoodcomedy on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's right, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism?

The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hi, welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name's Jamie Loftus. My name's Caitlin Durante. And we're back, baby. We're back. I mean, for you guys, we're never gone. We were never gone. But for us, we were gone. We were gone in the sense that I was out of town for a couple weeks

and we changed and you were gone you were also gone i'm so sorry to forget your experience don't feel seen even though i just said i was gone wait okay yeah i was gone for longer so i feel like i win is what i'm trying to think about it you actually did win the contest of being gone yeah and then also we are recording in yet a different place than we have in all of our other episodes yeah because we were mostly at the studio at meltdown comics and then we recorded a few episodes at the ruby which is a comedy venue next door to meltdown plug a good venue a great venue sorry i shouldn't have said good i was just thinking about well we'll get there we'll get there now we are recording in the how stuff works studio yeah i'm freaking i mean daily zeitgeist is recorded here we're here pretty frequently

i love the snack setup here the one note one note for this amazing new space we're being allowed to use. Aristotle is a full pane of glass away from us. Yes. And that is new. And I have to like turn around to see him. It's really. Well, we're experimenting with the chair set up like this. I would say this isn't like, I don't know. We'll see. Yeah. We'll feel it out. Sure. Anyways, we're excited. We're excited. We got an AV club right up today. We sure did. That was a kick. By the time you'll hear this episode, it'll be weeks away, but it's new for us today.

Yeah. Yeah. With our Anna Hosnier episode on She's All That. Yes. So we're excited. We got a lot of stuff to talk about today. I'm so thrilled about our guest today. Yeah. Oh, wait. What's the Bechdel test? Oh, yeah. Let's talk about today i'm so thrilled about our guest today yeah let's oh wait what's the bechdel test oh yeah let's talk about that forgot so the bechdel cast is a podcast where we talk about the portrayal of women and it's inspired by the bechdel test which requires that a movie has two female identifying characters in it who have names who speak to each other and their conversation has to be about anything other than a man can i

give you literally the most like insane example of the vectal test being passed so for work this week for work i had to play this anime porn game called pussy saga sure for i didn't have to play it for 10 hours but i did play it for 10 hours. Pussy Saga, I mean, by and large, really just a scourge on humanity where it's all anime titties. It's a choose-your-own-adventure game. And the setup is wild.

The setup is that the Greek poet Sappho has been kidnapped. Famous queer Greek poet Sappho has been kidnapped by a sex demon. And me, the player, also me personally, has to fill a jar with the cum of five different women in order to rescue the Greek poet Sappho. And that's the conceit of the game, which is wild to hear from a woman you meet because she is broken into your home and is masturbating on your bed. This is not called into question. This is the rules of the universe. So I go in, they're like, okay, I know you just caught me masturbating, but here's the thing. The Greek poet Sappho has been kidnapped and you need to get the cum of five women or she will die. And I was like, okay, let's do it anyways you have to you know sort of

spread your seed and it's very problematic and i don't have time to get into it but the way you meet the women who's come you consensually get to release the greek poet sappho the way you meet is there is a conversation a cut scene where they talk to each other which means every woman you've ever had sex with knows each other by one degree of separation. Another crazy world rule. I mean, that's pretty much par for the course for me. I get it.

Oh, wow. You're such a wild child. Okay, so this is a scene between Marina and Linda, both of whom I've had digital sex with. Also, you don't actually see intercourse or have sex with them. You basically play Candy Crush. And then at the end, it's like, you fucked her.

She's yours now. And it's wild. You play puzzles. So they have this really kind of sweet cutaway scene about Linda's relationship with her mom. Oh. Right before I have sex with both of them. Great. Is your mom still nagging you? You

need to tell her this relationship isn't normal. And then Linda says, I don't know. She's my mother after all. I'm not afraid of her or anything. I just feel lousy when I'm around her. That passes the Bechdel test. It sure does. And anyways, this episode is sponsored by Pussy Saga and do not play it. Well, this has been a long intro. Yeah, but I'm glad you shared that with us. It's important for our listeners to know. I wrote a 3,000 word essay about it. So there's more if you're interested in Pussy Sagas. Anyways, let's get to our podcast that we have. Let's do that.

I just got very distracted. Our guest today we're very excited about. I'm so thrilled. Let's the best. Kate Banford. Hello. Hi, thanks for being here. I also feel very rude because I told you to say that, but I should say I co-own and co-run it with Aaron Nevins, who is my other half.

Another one of the greats. Another great person. Thanks for being here and thanks for bringing us the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to talk about it. So what's your history with this movie? When did you first see it? So I don't remember. I was trying to rack my brain of the first time I saw this movie and I don't quite recall, but I feel like I probably saw it for the first time when I was like a teen, maybe like in my 15s, 16s. Sure. That era, which is pre ever having a serious relationship or hating someone while also loving them in that particular way.

But I had just rewatched this movie. Actually, it's crazy. I watched the movie recently, cried afterwards for like 20 minutes straight. And then I watched the commentary like right after that as well. And then I watched it again this morning. So I've really been just knee deep in some eternal sunshine recently. Sure. Yeah.

It's really good. Yeah, I think part of the reason why I wanted to talk about this movie is it's just so emotionally captivating. And it's like also just like visually, it's like stimulating to all the senses. Except for taste. I taste eternal sunshine. I can taste Mark Ruffalo. I can taste. Oh, yeah.

God. Wow, he's very, yeah. That was my big crush takeaway from this movie was a new, I don't know if I knew who Mark Ruffalo was before I saw this movie. When did you first see it, Jamie? Such a cutie.

I'm pretty sure I watched it with a group of girls sometime in my junior year of high school, I think. So pretty young, pretty impressionable. Kind of like you couldn't fully relate to it, but the few lines in this movie that everyone says all the time, I was like, ah!

Because this is such an interesting example of manic pixie dream girl being commented upon before that term was even in the world right and and i was worried about that going into this viewing because i'd seen it i think again in college maybe once out of this is probably the fourth or fifth time i was watching it ever and then i was thinking about it because i saw you last week kate and you were you were like i watched the movie and then i watched the commentary right yeah it's like whoa I need to like revisit it and I was worried about how it would hold up but all the like red flags I wrote down in the first half of the movie are commented on and resolved by the end of the movie and I was it

just feels good to like a movie still and not be like, well, this one goes back in the trash, even though it made me weep as a teenager. I was sobbing last night. Yeah, it's so sad. It just it really captures like true human emotion. And I don't know what the red flags are you're talking about. I didn't really think about it that way. But I think that the fact that they get resolved is like a sign of the movie being able to talk about how complex humans are and how we can be shitty, shitty people and then very loving and caring people at the same time.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And usually with like those stock characters, they don't exist to be complex they exist to advance the right narrative for i don't know orlando bloom right who was elizabeth town oh i see orlando bloom was absolutely my major crush when i was like 15 like legolas legolas and what was it shortly thereafter he wasn't any really anything before Lord of the Rings but after yes Pirates of the Caribbean I found when I was home this past week I found my old dance

bag and zipped in the front pocket was a picture I'd torn out of a magazine of Legolas like arching and I was like whoa weird horny kid thing to do nice nice i didn't i don't even remember having a crush on orlando bloom as legolas but apparently i did you had to yeah um i first saw this movie it came on 2004 i don't think i saw it right away in theaters but

i think i saw it probably a year or two after that. Well, this has a lot to do with me being emotionally dead inside, but this movie does not make me cry. Wow. Have you been in a long-term relationship? I sure have not. So that also might have something to do with it. Interesting, because that's what I was thinking about this morning. I was like, I wonder if that changes people's perception of the movie.

Yeah, although I do think it does a good job Like, I wonder if that changes people's perception of the movie. Yeah. Although I do think it does a good job of representing all the intricacies of a relationship in a way that a lot of movies don't bother to. And that's, like, one of the things I that this movie delves into when it comes to a relationship. And then Jamie, to piggyback off what you were saying where you're like, oh, it's still nice to be able to like a movie because we've done just after doing this podcast ruiners podcast for a year and a half now yeah it's really six years yeah basically i when the av club wrote that 18 sorry to keep bringing it up but the the like over the past 18 months and then sort of said that we'd grown as people i was like oh that's not true we haven't grown as people you know we are even probably worse than we were before but yep i was gonna be like speak for

yourself but then i was like nope let the record show i have gotten worse and we'll continue to well i've been wanting to bring this up every now and then but like i've listened to our first probably like 12 episodes or so recently why would would you do that? Oh wait sorry people knew the cast. Listen to them all. Listen to them all but also like we've our voices have definitely grown and we've done a lot better when it comes to like critically analyzing movies. I watch all the movies now. Yeah you watch them all. That's good. Yeah. I feel like in the first few episodes, I just had like really flimsy arguments about everything. I think we hated women when we started the podcast is the problem. That's cool.

But now we like them. Wow. You guys have grown. You haven't gotten worse. This actually did start as an alt-right podcast. And now we are a feminist movie podcast. yeah this movie in particular seems to be a very personal experience for everyone who like everyone watches this movie a slightly different way i feel like and if you have like a specific experience of it feel free to let us know but like i'm pretty sure every time i've seen this movie i've been

thinking about a different person where it's so easy to project yourself onto these characters which is like what a lot of good movies and bad movies are are uh enable you to do but like yeah like I I think I was like thinking of a different person this time watching it than I was the last time I was watching it and my experience of it changed a little bit and like different parts hit for me in different ways and oh it's just really good it is i would say it holds up and it has a really good uh script i would know this as someone who does have a master's degree in screenwriting from boston university don't like to bring it up but uh this is this is our first uh on the list of people who our listeners are always like what about this one that's my impression i care but it is our first charlie kaufman joint yeah that we've done

and directed by michelle gondry who is not spike jones which is who i thought this movie was directed by whoa no which also michelle gondry has a music video that i don't know if you guys have seen it which is like one of my favorite music videos of all time. And it's very similar in aesthetic to this movie. It's the Chemical Brothers' Let Forever Be. The music video is like a dreamlike dance song. And it uses, in the same way this movie does, it uses like practical effects as well as like editing tricks and I just see that music video and I'm like yeah of course this is this is the only person who could execute this movie properly

yeah the look of this movie I mean and we don't get into this too much on our podcast but like the way this movie is shot is crazy it's like so so so it's the most amazing it's just such incredible film work and just seeing because you're kind of it's kind of like watching magic because they'll do like one shots and jim carrey will be like in one place and then another place or like kate winslet will be in one place and then another place but all in the same shot and it's because they're like diving through holes and like getting up or like changing their outfit and moving places and being themselves at a different time within like a span of three seconds and it's so just like it really gives you this like very realistic like scary movie type shock value it's i was

gonna say there's like there's a lot of imagery in this movie that you could easily find in a horror movie yeah like would not be out of place at all right and it's so interesting because it uses it's almost like it uses like art house kind of stuff scary film stuff and then drama and comedy and like slapstick it just uses a large variety of genres and yeah just melds them all together in such a wonderful wonderful it sure does it's also good it's perfect well i have some notes but before we get wow yeah bitch um before we get to those shall we do the recap yes okay so eternal sunshine of the spotless mind is about the relationship between joel played by Jim Carrey, and Clementine, played by

Kate Winslet. They meet, presumably, on a train. And then we cut kind of further into their relationship, sort of as they're breaking up, and then immediately after they've broken up. And they both decide to get this procedure by which they erase their memories of each other. So they basically will go through this procedure and then they come out on the other side she gets it first he finds out she's getting it and he's like i'll show you and then he gets it he's like i'm gonna win the break up right um which like fair have tried to do that a bunch of times so she erases her memory of him first and then he's like okay well i'm gonna undergo this procedure now as well as he's undergoing it during the procedure he's reliving all these memories and he decides that he actually

doesn't want to forget about her and he decides that he's going to try to like call it off but this proves to be difficult because he is unconscious and there's like really no way to do that Mark Ruffalo's in his underwear. Dancing. Dancing. I mean, that just feels important to mention that Mark Ruffalo is in his underwear and he does have really nice legs. You see also a little bit of his butt. You do? I mean, the cinematography is fine, but Mark Ruffalo's butt really stole the show for me.

The butt work is incredible. I've honestly never seen better butt work. Butt work you could see in a horror movie and it wouldn't be out of place. Exactly. It's a great butt. It's a great... Mark Ruffalo's so handsome.

It's just crazy. I was like, I had my teenage crush all over again. Elijah Wood's in it. He looks like shit. Also, he's very creepy. Yeah. Elijah Wood's in it. He looks like shit. Also, he's very creepy. Yeah, he's creepy and he looks 14. Yeah.

That's my critique. So all of these characters are in the movie because they're the ones who are executing this procedure. So Mark Ruffalo is the head technician. Elijah Wood is there. Kirsten Dunst shows up eventually. I wasn't clear on what her job was. Was she the receptionist at this point? As far as I can tell, yeah. So Joel has decided that he is going to try to basically

stop this procedure from happening so that he does end up remembering Clementine. So he's basically taking her and they're like trying to run away from the like deletion of his memories. He tries to like hide her in his like subconscious basically they try to sort of like create new memories to insert her into so that they can't find her to delete them um so they're doing all this stuff meanwhile like mark ruffalo and all

those guys are like whoa something's happening this isn't working like he's like reliving memories that were already deleted so they call in the doctor named uh howard howard played by tom wilkinson one of my favorite character actors so the doctor shows up and kirsten dunst is like oh howard i have a crush on you and we find out they have a romantic history and then she forgot that and i was like ah i had forgotten that too so she we out, had her memories of him erased. And then when she discovers this, she is very upset. And she decides to basically reveal to all the customers of this mind erasure company basically what happened. So the procedure for Joel ends up actually working. Like all of his memories of Clementine are erased, but they meet again because there is a small like fragment of a memory where she's like, meet me in Montauk. And then he like on a whim decides to go to Montauk and then they meet on the train, which is the opening sequence of the movie.

And they're like, wait, that wasn't them meeting for the first time. That was them re-meeting. And our minds explode. Right. It's okay. And then we cry. But then they immediately discover that they already had a history, that they had already and then they decide oh even though we like maybe weren't that good for each other or we were unhappy that go around let's try it again

but they don't explicitly say that yeah they just basically say like okay okay yeah you don't know what's gonna happen i know and that i think is what makes me so sad at the end is just because that's like you just don't know. It's very, it's like, I think like living in that space is like sad and terrifying, but also like really beautiful at the same time. So it's like, obviously I'm going to cry. That scene, yeah, that scene really fucked me up. Yeah, they're like, they're like laughing and they're like happy and excited while also being like scared just a very interesting place to end it in yeah for sure so good it's a very like non-hollywood ending right because hollywood movies would be like they are definitely back

together and this time right worked right like this is like we don't fucking know and neither do you but thankfully it's also not like just like a sad super realistic ending which is like, we don't fucking know and neither do you. But thankfully, it's also not like just like a sad, super realistic ending, which is like we would know they don't make it, which I'm also happy you don't have. Like, yeah, you would think Charlie Kaufman would be a pessimist enough to like end it that way. I'd be interested in like, yeah, what past drafts of it or if it like ever at any point ended differently i don't know but i think that that's like the ending is why people are so easily able to project themselves into the movie because it's like you just don't yeah no like you can watch that movie and still be in a relationship and be like it's us or you can be out of relationship be like it's us yeah like there's just so many different ways to to come at it and oh it's so good oh all right um so that is the movie that that there

it is that is it jamie you mentioned the manic pixie dream girl trope yes which i definitely i don't remember clementine's character being that but like when i was re-watching it yeah it for sure because i well i had seen this movie like once and then liked it enough to buy it on DVD and then never rewatched it until like yesterday. Okay. So I didn't remember that that was like a component of her character. And I started watching. I was like, oh, no, like this trope. The first couple scenes, you're like, oh, no.

It like really punches you in the face with it. Can I give the official definition of Manic Pixie Dream Girl? Oh, good. I was just looking it up. Yes. Yeah. It's Nathan Rabin, great writer, 2007. He originated the term in a review for Elizabethtown.

Kirsten Dunst. Kirsten Dunst. A Kirsten Dunst character. And then the world never saw it, but defines the character as a bubbly, shallow cinematic creature that exists solely in the fevered imaginations of sensitive writer-directors to teach broodingly soulful young men to embrace life in its infinite mysteries and adventures. Basically, she's cute and she fixes him. So whimsical.

And he even like directly says that towards the end of the movie when they're in the bookstore. Barnes & Noble. Yeah, they're at Barnes & Noble. And they're kind of just like coming to accept that he's not going to remember her and he's like i even thought you were going to fix me here i still thought you were but she says specifically men all think that i'm going to fix you right so he really comments on it in that scene heavily before this term was even a thing it's so yeah it's like so interesting and cool that that

the movie does make so many comments on a term that had not quite yeah fully become a part of popular conscious at least but there's yeah there's that line where and she ends up saying it i think at almost three different points in the movie because you can tell it's just like a line she has in the back of her head yeah or she's like i'm not a concept too many guys think i'm a concept or i complete them or i'm going to make them alive but i'm just a fucked up girl looking for my own peace of mind and i kind of hate that but whatever don't assign me yours and then we're like yes queen and then i crashed through the ceiling but yeah i mean the first scene we see clement in, she's sort of got that manic pixie vibe to her where she's got weird hair and she's like, hi, who are you, unremarkable man? I'm amazing.

And she talks really fast and she gets very intimate with him very quickly. Yeah. And he's clearly very uncomfortable. Right. And then we find out later that that's because there's something in the back of her mind that knows him. And so there is a motivated reason for him to go up to him that those characters normally wouldn't have. True. And then we also find out all this stuff about her that is like, okay, like we know people in our lives and like I, you know, like maybe even have elements of it ourselves that the manic pixie thing is like

a total front to hide uh yeah issues you have yeah right and so for clementine it comes up she like drinks too much uh but tries to make it look cute been there uh she like there's like a bunch of different stuff where she's like super flaky she's super impulsive but she's like it's because i'm cute and it's that's just that's me and she's also like clearly very loving but also has like a temper too because it seems like she like blows up a lot off of like little things that should maybe be talked about and then his character is messed up because he'll always be like i don't want to talk about it i don't want to talk about it I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. And I see that.

I'm like, yes, I'm both of those people. Well, and then Joel, too. It's like where they are both like fundamentally good people. Yeah. Right. Like they're not bad people, but there's so much that's wrong with both of them. You're just like, ah, it's it's. Where, like, Joel is critical of her, and the things he's critical of are valid, but the way he's expressing it is so annoying. And biting.

And passive aggressive. Yeah. You're like, yeah, I would probably run out of the house if someone said something like that. Right. And it's like, it's partially because he's right, but it's mostly because he's just like like it makes me so yeah clearly also has like a nice guy complex about him which again is addressed in that first scene where she's like why do you keep saying nice why do you and it's clear that he thinks he's being a good guy when he's like just being a guy yeah yeah well that's why i'm prepared to argue that even though she comes off especially

in those first couple scenes as like the manic pixie dream girl type the thing with that trope is that that type of character that archetype is often not developed any bit beyond that so it's just like very surface level like yeah i'm quirky but like she presents that way at least at first, but I feel like we get to know her so well and her character so well developed that I think that she has the persona, but then it drops. I have no criticism of it that you would have with a normal manic pixie dream girl character, because normally if you remove that facade from that character there's nothing left right because that character exists to advance the male's agenda or yeah you know like if we're using elizabeth town like kirsten dunst is like a like i think like a stewardess or something who's like hi i'm quirky what's your problem um let me help i'm gonna quit my job and i have nice hair and my teeth are a little crooked.

When your dad died, I've got it. And I was like, she doesn't exist outside of helping him. It's like a very one-dimensional portrayal. What's so funny about the fact that Kate Winslet's character is not a manic pixie dream girl is that she is actually literally 90% of the movie in someone's dreams or memories or fantasies. Oh, I didn't even think of that. Yeah. So it's interesting that that's the situation that it's within. It's interesting because it's like the Clementine that we get to know inside of her head,

that's not even 100% her really, right? It's his perception of her, yeah. But this was in the commentary from Michelle Gondry or Charlie Kaufman. I don't remember which. Oh, it's Michelle Gondry talking about it because he talks about how I think they're, like, kind of having an argument over, like, it being essentially Jim Carrey's perspective of her. And it's, like, not technically her exactly. And then Michelle is like, oh, well, I remember when my dad died, I would have conversations with him in my dreams.

And it wasn't like I was making this person up. This was my dad. And it's like I know my dad well enough that it can actually create a really, like, vivid picture. And he was, like, speaking through Michelle, essentially. I just thought that was a really interesting thing to say. Whoa. Well, also like with Joel, he in the story is generally a pretty reliable narrator. So if he was presented as a character in the story who wasn't as reliable,

we would maybe question his perception of Clementine a little bit more. But because the story depicts him as being like the quote reliable narrator type then i think we can trust him enough and his perception of her enough that what we see of her in his memory is generally pretty true to who she is yeah so that that would have bothered me if he had a very skewed perception of her and that we're like even of how he was speaking about things or something and he always seemed like the good guy right exactly yeah but he yeah his memories are pretty objective in the sense that he's remembering him being shitty as well as her being shitty and then also being loving and good to each other so

if it had been a little bit different we wouldn't have been able to trust him as much. And then his perception of her would not be reliable, I think. Right, yeah. So I like how the movie handles that. so well developed and don't rely on this like stock one-dimensional like manic pixie dream girl type that doesn't get developed any bit beyond that because like so few movies that like ones that we've talked about even don't bother to develop their characters well enough that we would understand why two people would be together so yeah like a lot of movies that we would understand why two people would be together. So, yeah, like a lot of movies that we've talked about depict like a heteroromantic relationship

in a way that we're like, well, why do they even like each other? Like what's compatible about them? And I think that's usually a result of the female character being so underdeveloped that we have no idea why they would like each other or why like the guy would like her or anything like that. For example, like movies that

we've done so far in the podcast twilight 50 shades of gray actually kind of almond okay don't i'm kidding um love actually the princess bride the holiday uh this happens i feel like in blade runner the mummy our favorite movie gilly gilly Gigli. They're perfect for each other. They're terrible. So that's a common trend in movies. Or if a movie does take the time to develop its female characters a little bit, the movie will often still force the woman to end up with a man who has either lied to her, manipulated her or done something else that's otherwise extremely shitty that should be grounds for dismissal. But instead she's like,

but we're going to end up together at the end and have a little kiss. For example, this happens in... A little kiss. I love a little kiss. Oh, you did the Thailand slurp. Hate the slurp. This happens in She's All That, Ghostbusters, Groundhog Day.

Like the movies will put them together at the end, even though we as the audience don't necessarily understand why this would be as long as you think about it for like two seconds. And you're like, oh wait, why is she picking him again? Like why are they ending up together? Because he was very bad to her throughout the

entire course of the movie but this movie eternal sunshine i think does a really good job developing both characters and exploring like i said the intricacies of a romantic relationship in a way that most movies don't bother at all yeah so i appreciated that about the movie another thing that stood out to me about clem's character and i I guess like would have about Joel if we saw him in another relationship, where something we haven't gotten into at all yet is little Elijah Wood the sneak. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, right. Whose character I almost totally forgot about because I haven't seen it in maybe three years or so.

But who has, and I think this is like a commentary of some sort on how men view women, because that's something I think Charlie Kaufman's really good at. He can write a female character, which a lot of male screenwriters absolutely cannot do, but his real strength is writing about how men view women wrongly a lot of the time. And so like Elijah's character, let's call him Little Patrick.

He's Little Frodo. Little Frodo. Frodo. And Kate Winslet is the precious. She is the ring. She's the ring. My precious. Let me put it in some terms you nerds can understand.

Frodo wants the ring, but the ring does not need a man. Sorry, Eternal Sunshine isn't like a 12-part series that's just going to continue on forever. I want to do Lord of the Rings episodes so bad. I know you do. Oh, God. It's just like you need a different co-host. So we're to believe that Joel gets his procedure done the week after Clementine has hers done. And it was all the same people basically who did the same thing to Clem the week before.

And we don't find out the way that information is revealed is also like very well done of like we see her like not recognize Joel after her memory memory's been wiped and then she says hi patrick baby boy and then goes to kiss question mark actually elisha wood because he saw kate winslet unconscious uh and was like falls in love with her right right which is fucked up right there it's crazy and it's like oh know, a man projecting whatever the fuck he wants onto someone he doesn't know. While literally erasing her memory. Fucked. It's fucked. And then steals her underwear. Just for good measure.

Yeah. Steals her underwear and then steals all the mementos that Joel had. Bought for her as gifts. Yeah. head bought for her as gifts yeah and just even just mementos of their relationship and starts stealing his history with clementine and essentially bringing this into his relationship with clementine uh basically because he thinks it will win her over yeah exactly which in a different movie that would make her be won over by him you're so right yeah because women aren't complex right and because men be manipulating women in movies and usually it's okay because she'll still decide to end up with him but

great thing about this movie is that does not happen right no and then like the whole thing you can tell feels very off to her and then she's just like i have to go like and it's great but yeah i feel like of all the male characters in and it is mostly male characters in this movie patrick is like the most obviously flawed and it's also explained why he's that way which i would hope that like little dweeby dudes a la elijah wood would see that and be like oh that is a flawed way of thinking because he says a few different times to mark ruffalo parentheses hot um he says to mark also mark ruffalo is like the moral like he's like the moral standard in a way too he comes out on top yeah mark ruffalo because i forgot i forgot if he was lying to kirsten dunst and at

the end you're like he wasn't yeah yeah he's a good guy yeah so now and then i was like thank god now i feel good about looking at his legs. Right. But Elijah Wood's character, like, keeps saying to Mark Ruffalo, he's like, well, you know, I'm, like, not really good with ladies. And so he does that thing that, like, nerdy characters in 80s movies would do, which is like, I'm not good with ladies. So instead I have to trick one into liking me. Right. Right. And we see that go horrendously wrong in this movie which normally we wouldn't right yeah good job movie yeah charlie kaufman you did the damn thing another thing i wanted to talk about and i don't know if this has any legitimacy at all so ready i know watch out for something that might be complete and utter bullshit but

one of the scenes that i really liked happens pretty early on joel and clementine are in bed together she is drinking out of a mug with her own face on it right she's saying something like you don't tell me anything like i share everything with you i you. I want to know you. People have to share things. That's what intimacy is. And he's just all like, well, you just talk too much. And da, da, da, da, da. Right. I don't know if there's like active commentary being made on this or not, or if this is just sort of my interpretation of it. a lot of like the emotional labor that especially in hetero relationships that women often tend to

have to do and to deal with because men are conditioned to repress their emotions. Women are conditioned to be more emotionally nurturing. So she's over there being like, oh, like we need to talk like you need to tell me things. And he's like, no, I don't want to. And I feel like men tend to perceive interactions like that as women being naggy. But in this scene, like I'm totally on her side where I'm just like, yeah, you like you have to share things about yourself. Like you have to be emotionally open and vulnerable or else a relationship is ever going to work. And he's so passive. He's I wrote it down because I was like, and I could like hear an ex-boyfriend of mine saying that to me, you know?

Yeah. Constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating, comma, Jamie, period. I was like, but that's like what he says. And you're just like, fuck you. But it also portrays the complexity of a relationship, too, with like what's happening verbally and like physically because she's she's, like, being really intimate and, like, kissing his cheek and hugging him and touching him. And then he says that really mean thing and she continues. And then it, like, kind of sets in. And then she gets really pissed off and, like, turns away. But then now he's like, oh, she's gone. And so he tries to kiss her and

hold her and, like, nuzzle her. And she goes away. And I think that that's a scene that really sticks in the brain too, because it's not only what's happening emotionally and verbally, it's like also like their physical touch. Like the body language. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mimics what's going on there too.

Yeah. So that scene stuck with me as being like, oh, like look at all the emotional heavy lifting that women often tend to have to do in hetero relationships i don't know if that gets like commented on that much in media right stuff like that because women like usually a portrayal like that in a movie would be like look how naggy she is right i think what you see over and over and it's it's typically like the reason for their conflict and you're like you guys should really go to couples therapy i think what you see over and over and it's it's typically like the reason for their

conflict and you're like oh you guys should really go to couples therapy i think you can make it work you guys just really need to learn how to work through your issues but seeing like how they are in the flea market as well it's like she says something he says something really shitty to her about like not being ready to be a mother and she's like yes i can be a mother like i'm ready to be a mother and then they have this whole blowout and he's just like i don't want to talk about it i don't want to talk about it i don't want to talk about it and she's trying to talk about it so i think it's like a it's definitely a pattern that keeps happening in this film specifically of she's trying to unpack the mean things that he's saying to her and he's unwilling to do it but then that

causes her to freak out because what are you supposed to do? You're like, it's not being gaslit, but it is being like shut down. You're like, you just said something horrible to me and now I can't confront this thing. So then you start to feel like crazy, like you're trapped inside of your own head. But we also know it's weird because this relationship is so fascinating and like familiar feeling is like we objectively know why he's saying what he's saying. Right. Because she's like an alcoholic. Right. But he won't just say that. Right.

And it's like, well, if you not confirm it, like sort of like talk about this in a controlled setting where you're being honest with each other then you can address like okay she's got a problem how can we fix this instead of just being like you can't be a mother and like yeah so we know why he's saying what he's saying it's not again in a lot of movies that aren't this well thought out it's just like why is he so mean like why is he saying it's like okay yeah he's frustrated because she's an alcoholic yeah but he won't say anything and you can tell because this movie does such a good job of like building up the subtlety of resentments and the reason resentments are built up is because of no one's like communicating what they're feeling and so it comes up in like these terrible terrible moments and do you think that's why maybe like as he's reliving these memories and like sort of like re-seeing how he handled them and maybe that's why he like as he's reliving these memories and like sort of like

re-seeing how he handled them and maybe that's why he's like, wait, I don't want to forget these. Like I want a chance to almost redo this. Well, I think that's what's so interesting about this movie is because it's like it's essentially commenting on the fact that it's like you shouldn't erase your history because mistakes are made. Like even if this relationship does end and it fucking sucks and it's like the worst you have a whole year of like torture after the end of this relationship it's like you learn from

that and if you're just erasing it you're just gonna keep reliving it over and over again patterns yeah yeah yeah and he's clearly and i think what's so beautiful i i mean something i specifically love about this movie is how they comment. I just find this to be so insanely good, is that they comment on what's happening in front of them while also living in the moment. And have you guys seen Fleabag, that TV show? So you know how she like turned to the, or like chewing gum, they'll like turn to the camera and like talk to the camera. And that's how you get their internal monologue. Whereas this film something i've don't think i've seen in anything else ever also i'm thinking of the tv show unfabulous did you ever i loved that show at

an age where i should not have loved that show it was really maybe a little bit too old yeah it's so good though yeah but she'll like live out her fantasies and then pop back into reality. And that happens in so many things. But in this movie, you'll see them happening simultaneously within the same breath or within one shot within a conversation between the two people. So seeing someone commenting on what's happening in front of them. Yeah, like in real time in real time is a really insane thing to see and it's like it's like you're and yeah and you're watching someone learn as you're seeing it for the first time it's so good it's i don't know yeah the last

thing i want to say about clementine because we haven't even started talking about Mary yet. Right. Oh, right, yeah. Is we see that, and we see this with Joel too, but more so with Clem, because we see how she acts with sneaky little Patrick. Is that for her, the same, like most of us, the same insecurities pop up in every relationship. And it's like sort of a variation on a theme. Where there's that scene that like is so beautiful but also really breaks your heart where she's like i never felt pretty i never felt like i was pretty enough blah blah because an insecurity so many women have um that starts when they're very young and we see that scene that is like very beautiful and sweet where

like joel's like you are pretty but what and gives her what she needs in that moment and then we see that same refrain repeat itself when she's with Patrick right where she calls him out of nowhere and is like am I ugly yeah I have certainly done like stuff like it's like hold on I just had a thought I'm awful wait you're also caught you're calling attention to something too that I didn't even connect. But it's, like, that is a core issue of Joel and her relationship, which is that she uses her sexuality to gain attention and to make friends is essentially what he says. Like, she'll, like, dangle, like, the thought of sex in front of people to, like, make friends. And that is, like, obviously obviously it's a very feminine struggle like that like every single woman who listens to this is going to be

like yes there have been friends where a guy was my friend i didn't want to date them and then they stopped being my friend and then you're like oh the only reason men want to be my friend is because there's the potential for me to kiss them or fuck them. Oh, wow. Pussy saga. Yes, pussy saga queen. But yeah, that's definitely like the being pretty, being pretty, being fuckable. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like that role, like feeling like you need to occupy that role. Fortunately, like some men are able to be your friends, but a lot of men, especially, like kind of aren't. Like I've had friendships that I assumed were friendships that once it was like, I don't know, once I made myself clear of like, oh, no, that's not what I'm looking for here. They sort of disappear.

Yeah. Or you see a girlfriend of yours who's like, you can tell they're not being clear about a relationship because they like this relationship and they're scared that if they say something about it, that friendship will end. Which is such an unfair burden. It's so. So many people have to deal with. Exactly. an unfair burden it's so and it's so many people have to deal with exactly and it's very cool that this movie is essentially is like kind of delving into that in a very very subtle way yeah it's like it's a it's it's not even a character flaw on clementine's part just like a very recognizable

quality that's like okay what you're doing is not the right thing to be doing but i understand why you're doing it and it's sort of put upon you in this very complex way what a great character let's talk about mary yeah i have a question about mary actually so there's something about yeah there's something i was like someone has to say it so my question about mary is wow sorry writing this title down because there needs to be a sequel. Hey, Hollywood, here's my pitch for a question about Mary. Okay, we learn that she and Howard the Doctor had a romantic history. Not Howard the Duck. Not Howard the Duck.

Howard the Doctor, whose last name I simply don't know how to pronounce. Howard the Doctor. Okay, so Howard. Honestly, I personally feel like I'm on a first name basis with all of these characters. Okay, Howard. Howie. Yeah. How.

Mary and Howard have a romantic history. She chose to have all of her memories of him erased. Okay. But, so that happens. But then how would that work? Because she works for him he is essentially her boss but all the memories of him she would have had to have erased so like all of her working knowledge would also have had to have been erased because they work together so basically did she have to relearn her job from scratch i i i mean I personally think asking questions like this will break the movie down a little bit.

Because I also just think about, like, the guy calls it, like, brain damage, essentially. But I do think about that. I'm like, this would never work. There's no, like, once you really start to think about how this would work, it just can't because you're just going to have random gaps. And you're just missing very important pieces of the puzzle but i'm here to ask those hard questions yeah she would have this memory of working there only when he's not there yeah which was you would think would leave huge gaps in her memory of how to do her job yeah also like her the other people would yeah mark ruffalo he would have to know

he'd be like this seems really messed up. Like, why is this? Yeah. Yeah. I think you're very right. That is a good question. Yeah, she must have gotten everything erased, and then they just had to retrain her on her job. Be like, this is your first day.

Meanwhile, she's actually been there for, like, two years. Right. I let the movie gaslight me a little bit on that one this time because the second you find out in that scene where is one of the only scenes where two women appear in the same scene where kirsten dunst is chasing howard's wife's car right because she sees them together she knows they they've been together we don't know that yet and then mark ruffalo leans on the horn to be like yikes boss get out of there but but then i'm like oh well then he would have to know he would have to know there's no way all right no he he must know his wife obviously but then he saw them

kissing which is upsetting to him but then if he's worked there for so long and she's worked there he and elijah wood would have to know like there's no because everyone gets those letters yeah and who would have done the procedure because he's the main technician yeah i feel like howard would have been able to kind of like he could get around yeah get around some of the normal stuff that's true maybe this is this a good point to bring up an asmr video i really like absolutely is there any good point there excuse you there's a great asmr requests video she's one of my favorite asm artists that is a role play of you getting your brain wiped by this company it is like one of the coolest uh one of my favorite asm ever. It's just well done ASMR, but it's called Remember, It's Okay to Forget.

Memory erasure role play that has a ton of, I think the last time I watched Eternal Sunshine was because I had just watched this ASMR video. Wow. Because it's clearly one of her favorite movies. Yeah. And she wipes your memories. You've in theory brought all these, and she has all these objects that she taps on. It's an ASMR video.

Right. And she's like, this is your ex's coffee mug and then she taps on it for like four minutes and it's a really good one wow that's great yeah great theme strong brand i love that oh i wanted to also how you said how mary chose to have this procedure done i do also feel like when you finally do listen to Mary's tape, Mary listening to her own tape, she's like, I can't do this, and she starts crying. Also a moment where I'm like, God, what a great actress. Kristen Dunn's underappreciated.

She's incredible in this movie. She's great. We've all seen Jumanji, yeah. Yeah. Wow. We've all seen Spider-Man 2. We've all seen Fargo season 3 she's a gift but yeah i found you only hear a very short snippet and she starts kind of like being like you can't do this and

starts breaking down and you're like this is clearly a coercive situation agree that she was like really didn't want to actually do but because she's younger and so in love with this doctor, she lets it happen to herself. And I find that to be like heartbreakingly sad. And that's so common in that scenario where like she's his subordinate. Yeah, it's a power situation. He's much older. And he's doing it, I'm sure, to repair his marriage. Yeah, exactly.

Because his wife knows about this affair and it seems like and this is getting several layers deeper than the movie you know has time to explain but probably they're like well here's how we'll fix it for our marriage is we'll just have this young woman yeah that'll help oh god i totally i've i totally forgot about that large and then it's her action that prompts the end of the movie which is she goes full assange she leaks yeah she's a leaker she's a leaker she's a little snowden wow look out kirsten that's a leaking data she pulls out the tampaxax and leaks all over the place. She's free bleeding information everywhere.

I'm kind of free bleeding data right now. There's, oh, that's really good. Yeah, hold on to that. Let's not forget about free bleeding data. Wait, so our new hacker organization. Can we backtrack for a second? I think. So I think I misunderstood.

She doesn't choose to have this procedure done. He kind of does it. I think she. We don't know that for sure. I think she says. Okay. Yeah. She says yes to it, but I think it's just a coercive situation.

Oh, okay. I didn't pick up on that. That's what it seems like, but there's really only a snippet. Okay. Where he's like, we agreed to it, blah, blah, blah. And he says like, you know we agreed to this. And she's like, like we agreed to it blah blah blah and he says like you know we agreed to this and she's like i can't she breaks down crying and you're like yeah she doesn't really want to do this but he's essentially being like you have you have to if you want i mean and

it might even be like if you want to continue working here yeah yeah because it sounds like because we find out about her she's also in addition to like having a crush on this man she's also very interested in the work they're doing. So it sounds like she probably wanted to stay working there. It sounds like she had greater aspirations in that field, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. It's a very complicated situation. When you think about it, it's kind of like when I was in college and Handsome Dan was my supervisor and my crush.

But also, I really loved public radio. But also, I mostly wanted to just be around Handsome Dan. Yeah. Also, it never happened. I'm so sorry. Thank you so much. We don't spend that much time with Mary. But I think that she is similarly an interesting and well-developed character as Clementine.

Like I said, we don't see as much of her, and we don't get to know her nearly as well, but I think the movie does take enough care with her to just develop her beyond a very one-dimensional... Yeah, you even see her in multiple environments where she's really buttoned up. And they do a really good job of very subtle... Oh my God, there's so many little detail things that i was picking up on this last watch but it's like there's a lot of just

very like subtle things that she does you see her buttoned up in the office environment and her like kind of hovering over the doctor and like anytime he touches her shoulder she like really leans into it and then when she's hanging out with mark ruffalo she's like looks kind of like rocker chic and she's like drinking and uh really hanging out and so and but then you also like hear her like trying to like develop her mind and she's very passionate about this work so she loves quotes yeah she loves quotes which is such a 21 year old girl thing to be like I've got quotes tumblr she's got a tumblr pinterest she's got it she's pinning she's totally she's freeblading data all over the place yeah her character is very interesting the last thing oh this is the last thing

that it's acknowledged oh i just sort of kissed the mic a little bit is the mind fuck of when like clementine was sort of playing joel's mom and then was in a memory or not she played yeah like a friend of her mom yeah friend of mom you still want to fuck me right i was like yeah just a fun mommy issue moment, she does flash her underwear, which I'm not totally sure how I feel about that. Oh, I know. It's motivated, but it's also like, ah. Yeah, there are definitely moments like that in the film where you're like, oh, that's a little. Well, there's a moment where Clementine calls Joel a homophobic slur. Right.

She does. Not good. But also it was 2003 when it was filmed or something. Yeah. Things have changed. One of the few moments that does not hold up. Similarly, later on in the movie, Joel is explaining to Clementine. He's telling her, oh, I'm living with someone else.

And she asks, oh, male or female and he goes female female like how dare you assume that i might be living and cohabitating romantically with a man right which also doesn't hold up classic but honestly so here's what i think though is like i think that does hold up not that it's like good but it is like that is how people react it is representative of the i think those people still yeah it's sort of representative of the character yeah as well where he is uptight not accepting of new things or people right and sort of like i could ease i mean and it's not explored in any way, but it's like I could see this guy in 2003

being homophobic. Yeah. You know, at least casually homophobic. Yeah, yeah. Not even like in an overt way. I just think. Right. I think those are things where it's like,

those are just accurate depictions of how people can view the world and themselves. And that's like a natural reaction. Yeah. People will still to this day say the R word, but sometimes they'll comment on it and be like, oh my God, why did I say that? But it's just like, like you grow up in the times you grow up

and it's hard to let go of certain things. Yeah. We all have a lot of work to do on ourselves. That's so true. By and large, this movie holds up for me. I would agree. Yeah. It's not a. By and large, this movie holds up for me. I would agree. Yeah. It's not a movie

that necessarily you watch and you're like, wow, this movie's so empowering for women. Right. Because it's not written by a woman. It's not directed by a woman.

One of the main characters is a woman, but she's like the secondary character. Also very white, very straight, worth mentioning as most movies are.

Yeah. But it is seen through the eyes of a man and so you can't really it's like seen through this lens so you're like well if it has to be empowering to women then you're kind of that's not the purpose of it essentially it's just to like help a neurotic man well Well, if we're, yeah, I mean, if we're a relationship that way, it's just sort of the auteur problem that we come up against time and time again is that we can't necessarily knock Charlie Kaufman for plugging himself into a story or, you know, like auteurs will very frequently in a way cast themselves as the lead where most Charlie Kaufman movies revolve around a middle-aged ish white guy because that's what charlie kaufman is literally in the movie

adaptation the movie is about himself right and these are great movies but it's it just comes down to like okay that's fine these are good movies we can't be upset with charlie kaufman for putting himself in reflecting his own experiences to an extent, but it just means that other people need to be given opportunities so that everyone is able to see themselves in the greater landscape.

There's also no excuse that every, I think every character is a white person. There's no reason for that to be. Yeah, definitely not. Like, yeah, there's no excuse for that. But there are very few characters in the film that's true uh and yet guys though yeah yeah they're mostly white guys anyways shall we discuss whether or not the movie passes the bechdel test yeah so i uh i was curious about

what you guys had to say because i was looking at it very closely and I was like, I think it might. Well, there's only a couple scenes in which two female characters interact. One of them is Clementine as Mrs. Hamlin, Joel's mom's friend. Yeah, that's confusing. And his mom is also there. We hardly see her on screen. We hear her voice quite a bit more than we see her. And she's like talking past Clementine.

She's not really talking to her. Yeah. Well, there's a few moments where she's like, oh, I'm going to go stir the soup and get a salad bowl. Can you keep an eye on Joel? So mention of a man. Clementine's like, sure. And then she's like, he just likes to be near me. Later she comes back and she's talking about string beans. And she's like, sure. And then she's like, he just likes to be near me. Later,

she comes back and she's talking about string beans. And she's like, is he okay? Will you wash them? And then later, someone's talking about a cocktail. I think this movie, in spite of, while we could argue that passes the by, I don't think it does. I don't. It's really hard to tell. But then, so but you wouldn't count when Kirsten Dunst's voiceover is speaking to Clementine. Oh, have we encountered that before? Does that happen? Yeah, it happens. It's weird. But she's in the car and she opens up the letter and Kirsten Dunst is like, and she's not talking about a relationship or a man.

She's just not talking about men. She's talking about the company. She's talking about the company and what they've done and to do right by it. But because it's a letter, she's not really directly responding to her. Clementine's not responding back. It's so crazy because I like grasping at straws I'm like that's I'm like that is this is the one time I'm hearing like two female voices like actually like saying full sentences that's like one of the against each other that's like unfortunate about this movie because and then there's a scene where

Mary and Howard's wife are in the same scene but they're talking about Howard they're talking about yeah that does not pass so I want to throw myself out a window. It makes me frustrated because there are opportunities. It is crazy. Yeah. Like there are opportunities for this to happen and it simply doesn't. Frustrating. I think we could argue that the memory scene with the mom and the friend passes on a technicality.

But I would say because we're in a man's memory. I know. That's what's also crazy. Everything is technically through a male's perspective. That's also not really Mrs. Hamlin, but does that matter? And then also the whole context of their conversation is like, we have to make sure Joel's near me because he always likes to be near his mom and they hardly have any interaction where they're we actually see them on screen together talking and the things that they are talking about that aren't a man are as we often notice on the cleaning cooking yeah very domestic things yeah I'm gonna say as

our our definition of the test evolves for me it does not pass i would agree with that yeah it just doesn't it doesn't feel you could you i you can make the argument but for me it doesn't pass which because there's no meaningful interaction between two women in this movie right i would maybe that's something that we should because we're always trying to figure out like what is our definition of it because so many horrible movies pass it on technicalities that are really frustrating so maybe it's maybe the word meaningful is like just like a meaningful interaction between two women that isn't about a man or like something that forwards a plot the name caveat like the two characters have to be

important enough that we would know their names is an example of like are they meaningful enough characters like and then yeah i think we could add the caveat is it a meaningful conversation that is important to the story and like the progression of the plot don't you also this is like totally different thing but i just often think about male writers of that era who do really good work but they're just going to be innately sexist they're not going to be creating worlds where women are the focus it's they think of the world through a male perspective and they're so used to that so it's i just i feel i feel like that is a hard place to you're you're rarely going to see someone breaking out of that. Still a lot of work to be done. Yeah.

Let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. Zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. I'm going to give it, oh, this was a tricky one because while Clementine is a very well-developed character, although it is through the lens of like how Joel sees her in his memories. So it's already kind of like skewed a little bit. She is the one who comes up with the idea to be like, what if you hide me in your other memories or like hide me in your subconscious? And it's like, wow, that's a really great idea. It was her idea.

So that's cool that at least she is given something like that. But yet, despite her being well developed, I think it's going to get like a three and a half from me. Oh, OK. Is that too high? Is that too low? It's your opinion. I don't know. Because, yeah, she's well developed, but I don't watch this and think like wow how I feel so empowered as a woman or like I do think it's a good example of a depiction of a

hetero relationship that is very white and very straight in the sense that she is well developed enough that we at least understand why these two characters like each other but i think it holds up i think it's a good script i think it's a good story yeah i don't know 3.5 nipples is just what's who are you giving your nips to i'm giving my nips to two to clementine one to mary and then a half nipple to um carrie who we did not talk about at all but she is yeah she's friends with joel like she's in a relationship with david cross exhausted she's exhausted and yeah a half nipple for her just because we didn't get to um talk about her i'm gonna give it four i'll dock it one for the uh inclusion stuff that we talked about that there are certainly in a movie that takes place in New York, again, it's just like, oh, the whitest New York you've ever seen. Like the New York only exists in movies.

And for the few 2004 elements it has, and also just like because the ratio of significant female characters versus significant male characters, I'm pretty sure it's like i can think of four very significant men to women yeah you got clementine and mary and you've got howard patrick mark ruffalo whose name i truly do not know stan but only because i'm in love with him as mark ruffalo and joel so so the the ratio bad yes uh but i i mean i think that the way like i'm not necessarily looking to feel empowered as a woman watching this movie. I'm just but this movie makes me feel seen in ways that I wouldn't feel most times watching a movie. And is it partially because I'm a white hetero lady? Sure. But for this movie, it's like I can connect with it so much and i do feel seen by it and i want that for everyone you know everyone should have a movie they can watch

and feel seen uh but i just i think clementine is such an interesting character who is very like layered and everything we've discussed basically um But it's cool to see that trope commented upon in such an overt way, broken down to the point where it's like, yeah, some women do act like this, but it is a mask for something else. Right. And it's a mask you come by honestly, because it's sort of like put upon you as like, okay, well, here is a way I can act in order to seem more pleasing to the male gaze. Anyways, four from me, two to Clem, two to Mark Ruffalo. Great. Four nips.

Kate, what say you? I would give it also four nipples. It's pretty much for very similar reasons. I think that although Clementine is simultaneously is like a very flawed character, I think she's portrayed very accurately. You see her in like many different ways. And as a woman viewing this film, I often see films or television and I feel like women are like misunderstood, misrepresented or treated like objects or disrespectfully and it doesn't really feel like that is the the female purpose in this movie which is really nice um and like jamie said it makes as a woman it makes me feel like heard and paid attention to

and cared for and yeah also like kirsten dunst's character and the wife's character and david cross's wife that character carrie all those people you see them struggling which i think is a really nice thing to see because instead of struggling oftentimes you see women being like a pain in the ass. And to see women struggle, that is something that makes you feel like you're coming from a place of understanding. And also they're all just like so fucking hot. They're all so hot. Oh, God.

Everyone is very, except for Elijah Wood, who I will say again, looks like shit in this movie. Looks, you know. And also his character is terrible, so I don't feel bad saying it. So I'll give one nipple to each woman. Great. Yay. Awesome. Kate, thank you so much for being here.

I'm so excited we got you while you were in town. Yes. Where can we find you on social medias? Wow. You can follow at Good Good Comedy. That's on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook. And then me personally, I don't really use social media that much. But my name is Kate Banford.

So just, you know, at Kay Banf and Kate Banford. And if you're ever in Philly, see shows at Good Good. It's the best. It's the best. It's wonderful. We try to be very representative as well. Awesome. You do a great job. It's wonderful. We try to be very representative as well. Awesome. You do a great job.

That's the best. You can follow the Bechtelcast on social media. You can give us $5 a month or more. Just cause. Just to say, just cause, but also on our Patreon, because that will enable you to get two bonus episodes of the Bechtelcast every single month. You can also buy our merch online. Other than that, Jamie, I just want you to know that I will never erase any memories of you. I'll never erase you either.

Oh my God, yay! Love you! Love you! All right, bye! Bye, guys! Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was assassinated. Bye. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody.

This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful.

Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. Don't miss Catherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour.

If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.