The Bechdel Cast - Ever After with Keah Brown

Episode Date: February 10, 2022

Once upon a time, Caitlin and Jamie invite special guest Keah Brown to examine Ever After!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @Keah_Maria on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project.

All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister? Or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller

from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, They're just dreams. Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Once upon a time, there were two podcasters. Yes. there were two podcasters yes but the story you think you know about them is not right it is not

accurate you have some fantastical notion of this story but they're really just two ordinary women hosting a podcast and they're and they're living laughing and loving the end the end the end okay fine you know what okay there's no conflict that was a great story i oh okay well welcome to the bexel cast i didn't have anything uh that was the best i could come up with on short notice honestly listeners i think it's because we have covered, we're having a really Cinderella-y month. And I feel like we've kind of burned out our Cinderella-themed intros. Because over on the Matreon, we did Ella Enchanted and A Cinderella Story for Cinderellauary. And now we're observing Cinderellauary in February with an with an amazing guest all i had to say we've been

introducing cinderella episodes quite a bit lately what's the podcast again so we are the bechtel cast my name is caitlin durante my name is jamie loftus and again we're so we're just ordinary women we're commoners in fact we're just yeah yeah which some people don't care about right and we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the bechdel test as a jumping off point jamie yeah tell me what that is please well it's an ordinary media metric uh in which um In which it was invented by, holy shit, it was invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test. Lots of different permutations of the test. The one that we use requires that there be two characters of a marginalized gender with names who speak to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue you're in luck today baby it's a movie that i think we were talking about this as

we were watching caitlin or you mentioned this i think barely passes the reverse spectral test oh yeah there's not a lot of men talking to each other in this movie and we love that we love it so and we have okay so we have a very not just a very popular request but an extremely popular guest returning to continue her mission of covering the best cinderella adaptations on offer which happened to come out one year apart right yes and these episodes are coming out almost exactly one year apart because it's true right around a year ago. Our guest was on for Cinderella 1997, the Brandy and Whitney Houston one. She's back for this episode. She is a journalist, actor, author of the book The Pretty One on life, pop culture, disability and other reasons to fall in love with me.

And she's got a forthcoming children's book called Sam's Super Seats. It's Kia Brown. Welcome. Hi, thank you for having me back. I'm pretty much, you know, forced your hand, but it was necessary. You manifested it. I did. To quote all the YouTubers I watch. I had it on my metaphorical vision board. I'm so thrilled that you brought us this Cinderella adaptation in particular.

I know how passionate you are about it. And it's one I'd never seen before. We're covering Ever After today. Ever After, parentheses, a Cinderella story. ever after today ever after parentheses a cinderella story not to be confused with a cinderella story starring hillary duff and chad michael murray chad michael murray sorry wait kia i did i know that this is like have you seen the hillary duff, Cinderella story? And if so, how recently? Oh, I own it. Like, I have the DVD. I watched it, I'd say, at the beginning of, no, at the end of December. I think I watched it on New Year's Eve. Oh, my God.

So very recently. Yes. I hadn't seen it in over a decade. And I like, what a messy, interesting film. So what is your relationship with Ever After, Kia? Oh, I mean, it's a masterpiece. I think it deserved Oscars. I feel like people need to see the movie. Like it's one of those movies where it's like i don't care how you feel about anybody in it you still need to watch it like it's it's one of those films that i think is like the perfect intro for people who don't know how they feel about a rom-com but want to

try them out i think ever after is that movie to give you give you your way in because it's just a masterpiece. It's a gateway drug. Yeah. Everybody has a different accent. Everybody. No one in the film has the same accent. Correct.

I think it's beautifully casted and I just feel like some parts make no sense but it makes all the sense together. Like, you know what I mean? Like, ideally, you'd be like, why do they all sound so different if they're from the same place? But yeah, it's just beautiful. I'm obsessed with it. Yeah.

Spiritually, it makes sense. I was getting some, I wrote down, I was like was getting some i wrote down i was like getting some house of gucci vibes with the accent work uh because everyone allegedly is from the same place but but and i also like how it's like they're in france they're in renaissance era france the only character with a french accent is her father aug, who's only on screen for the first like five minutes. Right. And then everyone else has a British accent. Which is fine.

That happens in movies all the time. I feel like movies that are specifically catered to like Western audiences is like everyone's British, but they could be from anywhere in Eastern Europe. But I feel like it keeps coming to your attention because they keep making fun of England and America while speaking in British accents, but they're from France. And you're like, huh? They also hate Spain. It's a whole thing. They do.

It's a whole thing. Look, I was confused, but also, Kia, I totally agree where it's like, well, everything happening is emotionally true. And so you're just like on board with the ride. Right. You're like, you know what? I'll just, I'll do this. It's fine. Whatever's happening, I'm going to let it do it. And it's just, we'll figure it out at the end.

There's enough good stuff going on. Yeah, yeah. So like, you know, you get past the fact that it's literally nobody talks the same. Everybody's just kind of like trying to make it work. Using their like, listen, I'm just going to be charming and lovable. And you're going to deal with it. It's fine. We'll figure it out. We'll make it happen. I love it. And it works. And it works. It does. Jamie, you said you had never seen this before, correct? I hadn't. I was kind of surprised that I hadn't. I don't know why I hadn't.

But I guess that there's just so many Cinderella adaptations from this era that you got to miss one of them. And I guess this is the one that I missed. And I'm bummed out because it's so much better than a lot of the ones that I did get very attached to. So I'm really thrilled to have seen it now. I think it holds up like extremely well. I had a great time watching it. And sorry, but Flea is going off today. So he's just going to be present in the recording. And yeah, I really enjoyed it enjoyed it Caitlin had you seen this movie before I forget I had but I didn't grow up with it I only saw it for the first time during the pandemic and it was after Kia we recorded 97 Cinderella with you so I saw it for the first time within

the past like probably nine months and I can safely say it's my favorite Cinderella adaptation and I watched it like three times to prep for this episode partially because it's a very dense movie in a good way like it just there's a lot happening there's a lot to digest there's a lot to process but in a way that it's just covering a lot of ground and like there's all this class commentary that you're not expecting from a Cinderella movie even though the source material is ripe to make that kind of commentary but most of them don't bother with it so it's just like really cool and I like the movie a lot I think it's well written and oh my gosh Angelica Houston's eyebrows and all the work that they're doing. Yes.

The costumes. I love it. Everything. Yeah, her eyebrows are put to work in this movie. Okay. She really is like she's using her powers for good in this one. She and Angelica Houston. I'm trying to think of who belongs in the Eyebrows Hall of Fame.

I'm going to work on this. Eyebrows Hall of Fame, Angelica Houston's in's in there of course Will Poulter's in there yeah that's as far as I've gotten well it's a good start right listeners if there's anyone that you're like oh this is an obvious audition to eyebrows hall of fame please let me know and by that I mean I think just people who really lead with their eyebrows it's an unusual acting decision I'll throw um well I don't know if she leads with her eyebrows but uh Rachel Weisz has very prominent eyebrows put her in she's in I'm renting a space this is an installation I'm doing um love it all All right, we'll get there. Let's talk about Ever After. Yes.

Here's the recap. We open on an old woman telling the Brothers Grimm that their version of Cinderella is inaccurate and too fantastical. But she has the real story, which is once upon a time, again, in Renaissance era France, there was a young girl named Danielle de Barbarac. She and her father, Auguste, are very close. He has just married a woman, a stepmother to Danielle. She's a baroness named Rodmilla de Ghent, and she is Angelica Houston. She has two daughters, Marguerite and Jacqueline. And not long after Danielle's new stepfamily moves into their

manor, Danielle's father dies. And she is, of course, devastated. 10 years pass we then meet the king and queen of france and their son prince henry played by dugray scott is that his name who is that not sure okay just checking is it dugary i don't think so is it what is it is it doug ray is it doug Ray? Doug Ray would be fun. That's like the Margaritaville read of that name. Sugar Ray is shaking. How do you say his first name? I assumed it was Doug Ray. Yeah.

I don't know why I said Doug Ray. Let's just go with Doug Ray. Because Doug Ray is terrible. Sorry to have Doug Ray,. Let's just go with degray. Because doogery is terrible. Sorry that it's doogery, but it's a joke. Hey, it can be anything we want. Right. So Prince Henry is leaving his tower to

escape the pressures of palace life, to quote Disney's Aladdin, because he is about to be forced into an arranged marriage with the Princess of Spain, which he does not want to be in. Meanwhile, Danielle is now Drew Barrymore. And then, you know, as the Cinderella story goes, her stepmother has made her a servant in her own home. She's cruel to Danielle.

And then one day as Danielle is outside doing her chores, she sees a man stealing her father's horse. So she pelts him with apples, but then realizes that he's the prince. He pays her to keep quiet about having seen him. And with this money, Danielle can buy back, quote unquote, Maurice, one of the servants of the house who the baroness had sold to pay her taxes I really enjoyed that I don't know I was like oh this here's a fantasy I didn't know that I had where a man looks ridiculous in front of you and then he throws you a bag of money and then disappears forever I was like that actually should be more of a common practice that's right he's doing something bad you're punishing him he looks like a fool and then he's like please don't tell anyone

you saw this here's a bunch of money i really think that that would be a good thing i mean and then we would we would all own houses you know yeah we would be rich good thing. I mean, and then we would all own houses, you know. Yeah, we would be rich. Exactly. All of us. No debt. Yeah. We can dream. So that morning, as Danielle is serving breakfast, the Baroness is especially cruel to Danielle,

as is her daughter Marguerite, played by Megan Dodds, though the other stepsister, Jacqueline, played by Melanie Linsky, seems much more sweet. I love Melanie Linsky. I didn't know she was in this movie. Melanie Linsky, I have her eyes. She's there, and her character is similarly bullied by the Baroness and Marguerite. Then we cut back to Prince Henry, who on his journey runs into Leonardo da Vinci. As one does. As one does.

Who is on his way to the castle because he was invited to be the artist in residence. This is so wild. Right. I did not. Okay. If you, like me, hadn't seen Ever After, are you shocked to hear in this recap that Leonardo da Vinci is? And then I was like, oh, that's an interesting.

But then he's there for the rest of the movie. He's a main character. He's in many ways the grandpa that Henry. Right. Right. Like he's. And then in some ways, like there's a read of it where it's like he's also the fairy Leonardo da Vinci. Yeah.

Yes. Right. He is. A fascinating choice. I loved it and tell me your thoughts on this so okie doke we see the scene where Danielle is throwing apples at the prince Leonardo da Vinci is in the movie the da Vinci code is apple uh-huh is the movie trying to tell us something it's trying to tell us don't watch the da vinci code when it comes out they're like in eight years a absolutely ridiculous dog shit movie's gonna come out and everyone's gonna say it's good and then you're gonna watch it three years later

and be like the da vinci code was apple i still can't we we covered that on the Matriarch like a year ago, and I'm still furious about it. We were all, the power we gave that man Dan Brown when the Da Vinci Code was Apple is so absurd. Alfred Molina is in it, though, and that's its one redeeming quality. And so we can't write it off entirely. Clearly there is cultural significance. Understandable. clearly there is cultural significance understandable yes okay so leonardo da vinci is on his way to the castle but he is being robbed by a band of thieves uh henry recovers the mona lisa that one of the thieves was trying to steal prince henry also goes to return the horse that he had stolen from the baroness to the baroness, and Marguerite then

tries to dazzle the prince. She hopes that he will fall in love with her and marry her. Meanwhile, Danielle, with the help of her friend Gustave, secretly borrows a fancy dress so she can impersonate a noblewoman and go to the castle to negotiate the buying back of Maurice, which she successfully does, something that Prince Henry witnesses. And he is very impressed by her passionate speech about class. And he's like, wow, who are you? What's your name? To quote Ella Enchanted, you're not like other girls like this movie doesn't like directly say it to you but they're but you know same vibe he's like it's implied but there's more nuance too because there is there is i don't want to keep interrupting you but my one of my favorite

lines of the entire movie is when he comes to return the horse and she says oh she's mute and he's like but she was talking to me just right and she was like oh it comes and goes yeah just a plus delivery the movie's got jokes yes uh so danielle is trying to brush off prince henry and she finally tells him that she's a comtesse by the name of Nicole de Lancray which we learn was her mother's name and then Danielle runs off Danielle and Maurice return to the manor there is a very nice reunion with them and the two servant women that Danielle is very close with Paulette and Louise. Then the king, after arguing with Henry about this arranged marriage, decides to throw a ball in honor of Da Vinci, who again is in the movie as a character. If Henry can find love before the ball, he can marry

whoever he falls in love with rather than the spanish princess but the ball is only five days away done done right the baroness and all the ladies of the house get invited to the ball so so now the baroness is like okay this is our chance to like get the prince to fall in love with marguerite she bribes toby jones who is making his american film debut in this movie oh really yes he had been in a number of like british productions but this is his first role in an american production i would say that toby jones is actually doing a lot of eyebrow acting in in this role also okay so he's going into consideration for my gallery amazing so toby jones's character works at the castle in some capacity he's a page okay got it the baroness bribes him to feed her information about what prince henry is doing so that marguerite

can basically stalk Prince Henry. Then Danielle finds out about the ball when she walks in on Marguerite about to steal Danielle's mother's dress and shoes. And the Baroness plays it off like, oh, Danielle, you can come to the ball too, I guess, if you're on your best behavior. Then Danielle bumps into Prince Henry again when she's having a little swim. I love this. Something about like, I feel like we've discussed the trope. This is not the trope though. I would say this is an inversion of the trope, which didn't exist at the time. So I don't know what I'm talking about. But you know, like there's been a recent wave of coming of age stories where at the peak of the action the peak of her uncertainty

the girl dives into a pool and it's like oh like it happens in lady bird it happens in eighth grade it happens all the recent coming of age movies a girl's jumping into an in-ground pool and having a moment this is the opposite drew barrymore is having a moment but she's like floating she's looking at the sky she's having a nice time and she's like i don't know i really liked that moment i was like oh i want i want to do that it seems very relaxing here is my thought leonardo dicaprio watched this movie and he's like wow someone in water swimming around but they're still wearing their clothes but he'd already been at it for years at that point i guess by 98 he'd been in clothes in water that's i mean

titanic he probably sued her and romeo and julia he probably called his lawyer before they left the movie theater and was like can i can i sue for this this is my intellectual property can you copyright wet clothes but it's so great though because she was just like they're minding her business you know like relaxing and then here comes Leonardo da Vinci and he's just like hey looks like rain he's walking on water because he's invented boat shoes or something who knows I love every time he's on screen I'm like I'm interested whatever's happening I'm interested so Danielle bumps into henry they have a another discussion about class it becomes kind of flirty they're giggling but then she has to run off and get back home again then we meet this

wealthy creepy guy monsieur le pew literally love you like we get it pepe lepew yeah yeah played by richard o'brien of rocky horror picture show fame this guy has a fixation with danielle and he wants to marry her slash entrap her basically meanwhile prince henry is kind of going through the motions of courting marguerite but you can tell he's not really interested in her because he, like someone else, surprise, it's Danielle. There are a couple of instances where Prince Henry almost runs into Danielle when she's in her commoner clothes, including when Danielle and Gustave are in a field and she's trying to fly one of Da Vinci's kites. So she has to run back to the manor, get into a fancy dress just in time for Henry to arrive and pay her a visit. He then takes her to this huge library. She's dazzled by all of the books. It's very Beauty

and the Beast. Very much so. And he has like a really, i don't know why i always focus on this in that scene but like the bulge in his pants is very pronounced or whatever they had the outfit is very pronounced in that scene it's true that is true of a lot of this movie where whatever like cod pieces they wore back in the day it's very distracting because i'm just looking at the giant bulge in these guys pants okay but that's on me you yeah i was like that said let's not be pointing fingers at the movie maybe you're just horny could be sounds like me okay so on their way back the carriage breaks down and danielle and henry are bombarded by the same band of thieves then we get that moment where the main thief is like you can take anything you can carry and then danielle picks up henry and starts to carry

him away 90ss feminism. Alert! I liked it though. Me too so much. Then the thieves are like all you goofs let's be friends and then they all hang out and Danielle and Prince Henry finally kiss. Meanwhile Marguerite and the Baroness are trying to get into the Queen's good graces, mostly by using deceit. The Baroness uninvites Danielle from the ball after she stays out all night,

although the Baroness does not know that Danielle was with the Prince. Then Marguerite says something really rude about danielle's mother so danielle punches marguerite in the face it was so good so cathartic incredible but then marguerite retaliates by destroying a beloved book of danielle's that her father gave her because marguerite sucks she's trash she is sorry go ahead extremely trash she is awful she sucks then the baroness figures out that the contest that the prince has been spending so much time with that all of the courtiers at the castle are gossiping about is in fact danielle and then danielle meets up with the prince again and wants to tell him that she's actually a commoner, but she can't bring herself to do it.

Back at the manor, the baroness confronts Danielle about pretending to be a comtesse and locks her in the pantry on the eve of the ball. No! I know. So it's the ball is about to happen. Henry thinks his Comtesse is engaged to a Belgian man. So he's about to relent and go through with the engagement to the Spanish princess. But Gustave grabs Leonardo da Vinci, who breaks Danielle out of the pantry. She shows up at the ball. This sentence is so weird.

I just need to draw everyone's attention to the fact that this sentence is leonardo is a ride or die okay he is he is like i ship it i need it to happen i'm gonna do what i can to help he's a shipper he's he believes in love he does his portrait at the end was just like fan fiction for the time yeah he's like well i can conjure whatever i want so i'm gonna conjure this ship like incredible use of power why didn't robert langdon in the da vinci code examine anything about that painting and try to figure out exactly it you know it warrants asking also we i we didn't mention this but in the framework um the framework of this movie reminded me so much of the beginning

of a portrait of a lady on fire yeah because it's like a woman looking at longingly at a painting of a young girl and being like it's kind of a funny story actually and then it like splashes back very different movies unless no i'm kidding um yeah okay so danielle shows up at the ball she's in this beautiful gown she's in wings that leonardo da vinci crafted for her henry is like oh my god i love you but then the baroness outs danielle as a servant and then henry is like oh gross you're a servant get away from me which i was kind of i didn't see that coming of of him because usually when that happens in these adaptations i'm not saying that as a bad thing i think we'll get there of like why i thought it was kind of interesting but usually i feel like when it's revealed that she's a servant he's like but i'm so in love i don't even care you're not like the other poor people so i think it's interesting that he still

has a classist reaction and then has to like look within after all the conversations yeah i see what you're saying but that also makes them getting back together harder to digest because he's so awful to her in that moment that i'm like well i don't want her to take him back with 10 minutes left in the runtime you're just like oh he's being this classist this late in the movie yikes but yeah i don't know i think there's discussion yeah i literally i feel like i have blinders on when it comes to that because like he's so terrible to her but i just get so excited because i think because spoiler that she saves herself right yes and then he's there and i'm like ah she did it on her own but like

also get together because i'm already invested so let's do this then i'm like oh crap you weren't really bad there i hope you at least apologize directly for that. Which we do see him do. And then he also needs to continue to apologize and make amends for a long time after that. Yeah, agreed. Okay, so he's like, oh, gross, get away from me. So Danielle runs off. And then Da Vinci goes to Henry and he's like, you're a fool and an asshole, and you don't deserve her.

Danielle, back at the manor, she's humiliated and has no choice but to resume being a servant to the Baroness. That is until the Baroness sells Danielle to that creepy guy that creepy guy monsieur le pew oh he's so gross horrible like he says to her at some point in the movie like you may be three times or two times my junior child child but you know i can i can like uh he says i'm well endowed thank you yeah i'm well endowed and i can train you like a horse or something i'm like you just called her a child yeah and then also said you wanted her in the exact same breath disgusting it's intense like and i i feel like it is kind of an example of like that we kind of named this trope of like one man being so egregiously evil that a guy that maybe isn't so great looks so good by

comparison that we're not going to examine the things that are you know maybe the deep-seated classism that he just yelled in your face well at least he's not pepe le pew right like at least he's not threatening to rape you yeah right right i, I think it is like a trope that is grounded in like the idea that two things can't be true at the same time, where it's like there's only one kind of bad man and it's the worst man imaginable. Right. Oh, it's so terrible. Yes.

He's bad. So meanwhile, Henry is about to get married to the Spanish princess, something that she also very much does not want. So then Henry is like, you know what? Screw this. We're not doing this. He releases her and then he sets off to find Danielle, who, meanwhile, like you said, Kie, manages to escape from Lepieux by grabbing his sword and daggers and being like let me go or i will gut you she then leaves the castle and who is there but prince henry and he apologizes and proposes marriage and she says yes then we see the baroness and marguerite get their comeuppance

basically they're invited to the castle thinking that the prince will propose to Marguerite, but instead they see that Danielle is the prince's wife. And the Baroness and Marguerite are shown the same mercy that they showed to Danielle, aka they are turned into servants

at the castle. And then Danielle and Henry live happily ever after after and the point is they lived i i just i need to take a second yeah because the reveal that they're married and he's like marguerite i do believe you've met my wife she's sick about it okay and then and then i just it's my favorite scene in the entire movie because angelica houston is acting down okay and she's like and and then the queen is like oh like there's nobody here to defend you like it's over for you girl and then she's like oh everybody's out of town which great delivery very funny she's like she's like yeah oh, everybody's out of town, which is very funny. She's like, she's like, yeah, there must be a lot of people out of town.

And then here comes Danielle. And she's like, I'm going to let you know that I'm never going to think of you again after this moment. But you will think of me every day for the rest of your life. What a read, first of all. She read her her Miranda's. And then she was like, how long will that be? And Danielle's like, I'm just going to give you the same treatment that you gave me. And it is just, I just love this scene so much that I feel like I felt, I felt justified.

Like here was Melanie Linsky over here just minding her business, not in it at all. And then like the two most terrible people, not the most but like two of the terrible people to danielle actually get what they deserve although personally i wanted to see them fist fight i wanted danielle to fist fight bargui like oh that would have been perfect it would have fit right like when she punched her i think the first time that i watched it as a kid i like rewound it so many times because even then i was like yes she deserved to be punched in the face yeah she thought what was coming to her yeah that whole like the baroness gets her comeuppance chunk at the end is so satisfying.

Yeah. Oh, my God. I think maybe the most satisfying of the adaptations that we've covered. Because it's like a weighted blanket, I feel like. I'm like, yes, I want to rest here for a while, you know, see what happens. Because it's, like, wild. I think something that they do that is really smart is they have small moments where they're trying to, like, humanize her. You know, where she's, like, kind to Danielle, but, like, for two seconds, and then it's over. I think it's so smart because then they're like, oh, no, she kind of is nice to her but not really because i think it is because when the dad

died he turned to danielle and said i love you and she was sick about it and had been sick about it ever since yeah i do like the way that the stepmother character her behavior is contextualized more than in other adaptations i think that was like really effective but still doesn't like i like the idea that it's like they contextualize her behavior, but they don't excuse it, which I feel like is a tough needle to thread that this movie does really well.

For sure. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and discuss it further. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere,

a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel,

available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do.

One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that?

You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing.

They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago, when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president.

One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current. Available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And we're back. All right, where shall we start? There's so much to talk about with this movie. Well, we were just talking about Angelica Houston's stepmother arc. Maybe we can start there, because I think that it's a really interesting approach to the character that again it's like so much of what this movie is doing seems like so built into the story that it doesn't feel forced and it makes it even more kind of like why don't more adaptations attempt this because we see that

I mean in terms of like what the stepmother's predicament is i feel like sometimes a cinderella story unfortunately is an example of this her predicament is presented very much in a void and there's no context to like why is she mean what is her social status like what are like and so because of the era like the time and place this movie takes place in it's very very clear that like this is her option marrying danielle's dad is her way to secure a life for her and her daughters and it seems to me i mean i'm curious of what you both think it felt like to me that the context for why she is so cruel to Danielle in this adaptation is that like, it almost seems like Danielle is like this triggering presence for her that she wants to like suppress. And she's so upset that she's kind of like when her husband dies, she views this as like,

well, now I'm stuck here. And now I'm fucked. And I'm going to punish any reminder of the fact that this is how I feel. And so she kind of weaponizes those feelings against Danielle. Yeah. Yeah. I see that as well. I think the thing that I find really interesting is the fact that she seemed to genuinely like him.

Right. Yeah. Because oftentimes in these adaptions, the stepmom doesn't seem to care that much about the person who died. You know, and i think in this one you get little pieces of that which is a nice juxtaposition between the king and the queen henry's parents who don't seem to like each other at all right whereas like you see in the very beginning when when the dad dies she's like why don't leave me here like they're they're flirty like before he gets to leave they're like flirting with each other.

And, and like he leaves and she's devastated. But I think because she takes it out on Danielle, because Danielle was the last person he said, I love you too. It sort of negates that love that she has, you know, but it's clear that it's there. It's just like, none of it matters because you're trapped right to this little girl who's like hey you just need her immediately it's i think it's like really really well done of like yeah like you are you do get why she is upset but like every choice she makes is cruel and wrong and i don't know i feel like that's more nuance than you get in most of these adaptations. I really, I really liked it. Also, I was kind of curious of like, there's always this, I don't know, and I guess that no real Cinderella story like really takes a look at this. But I mean, we're at the beginning of every Cinderella adaptation, we're presented with like two sets of single parents. And it's always implied like the single dad is doing an amazing job,

which I think is cool in one way, because there's not a lot of single dads in movies at all, especially single dads of daughters. But then on the other hand, it's like presenting a single moms as like a single mom will raise her daughters to be vain and social climey. And she sucks. I don't really i mean that's just something maybe it's just because we've watched so many of these so close together but right yeah i'm sure there are there are plenty of exceptions to that but yeah for sure but it is

something that the other cinderella adaptations including the two we covered on the matrion they do this thing where their context or their explanation for why the stepmother is awful is that she's extremely vain and obsessed with looking young and jealous of cinderella and her youthful beauty because that's just how older women are rather than examining anything more thoughtfully than that and this movie doesn't take that route which I appreciated I agree yeah I don't know I like there's I think it is partly Angelica Houston's performance and her amazing eyebrow acting and just like the presence she commands on screen and then also yeah just the the way that character was written worked way better for me than most other Cinderella adaptations I totally agree a thing that I think is interesting is when they're when she calls danielle into her room to

brush her hair she talks about like how her mom made her brush her hair a bunch of times and like there's a hint of like oh my mom never thought i was good enough and it's like they're pouring that on to danielle who was literally again just a child when you met her and i just find it to be interesting because angelicaica Houston really does give this character depth in a way that we haven't seen. Even in, you know, my beloved Rodgers and Hammerstein Cinderella, the most we got out of Bernadette Peters

is a nice song, you know? But I think it's a really good song, you know, don't get me wrong. But I do find that, like, Drew did a really good job. I don't know who wrote it I do find that like Drew did a really good job I don't know who wrote it but I know that she that was like one of her first films for the production but she did a really good job of like humanizing her in a way and I remember reading an interview where she said people kept telling her not to do it they didn't want her to do the movie at all they said that it was a really bad career move and i was like well thank god you didn't listen yeah but yeah i just i think that this movie is really smart because it gives depth

to characters that we are at this point have already seen as like caricatures of themselves really and of this idea of a person and that it lets them just be people messy people and that spans across basically all the major characters the last thing i wanted to say about the baroness was that i also found it fascinating that she targets her cruelness depending on who she's talking to and based on how she perceives that person can elevate her status or elevate her situation in some way, because she's like, very supportive of her daughter Marguerite, because she perceives Marguerite as someone who's gonna help her move to the palace or just like, right, she's useful to her. Yeah. Whereas the Baroness is extremely cruel to her other daughter, Jacqueline, Melanie Alinsky's character.

One thing that she continually does to her is like body and food shame her where she tries to restrict Jacqueline's food intake. She implies that she is not pretty enough to warrant the attention of someone like a prince. She says that she's only going to the ball for the food. And I appreciate that the movie frames this behavior as despicable, which is something that most movies of the late 90s weren't doing because so much of the media from this era is like very body shamey, very fat shame shamey not at all challenging that type of normative thinking when it comes to bodies it was just like a given yeah i do yeah my last thought on on the baroness and then maybe we should just go into the stepsister stuff as well while we're

in this area but i again just like with the amount of like nuance and subtlety that is very effortless to this movie it doesn't feel like you're being you know bashed over the head with it at all yeah which sometimes updated fairy tales can feel and this one doesn't um but i like that yeah i mean going back to what you were saying kia about the baroness implying that her mother was cruel to her and like getting that context and seeing that Danielle you know that registers for her and she knows like okay like maybe there's a moment of empathy but also in that same moment the Baroness is you know weaponizing that same behavior against Danielle and I like that in the end there's that other scene where you know weaponizing that same behavior against Danielle and I I like that in the end there's that other scene where you know it's whatever very end of second act all is lost but Danielle like turns

to the Baroness and is like did you ever love me at all and like it makes sense I feel like sometimes with like these like feminist updates of classic characters they're not allowed those moments of like emotional vulnerability that is so human and it's like it's almost like they're emotionally Mary Sue-ing where they're like yeah I can experience all the trauma in the world and like it doesn't affect me not be affected by it at all or it's like in that moment it's a small thing but it's like yeah of course Danielle would feel like this she's lived with this woman for you know decades and never experienced affection and of course that's traumatic and of course you know deep down a lot of people would want to believe that there was some love there and and I like that all of that happens and Danielle does seem to understand the context

of her stepmother and still is like well I don't forgive you like that's another huge thing that I feel I feel like I mean and it's very character to character and the idea of forgiveness is so you know there's just so much to talk about and I feel like there's ways you can forgive people that are good for your mental health but it's like Danielle is like no I don't forgive you like i don't need to do that to the brig and it's i agree because i think even in that moment that you're talking about specifically where she asks her like was there ever a moment you can see something this is angelica houston again just being so good at her job where like something in her eye changes for

like a millisecond and then she's like no i, how could anybody with a pebble in their shoe? But it's, like, for a millisecond, you can tell she, like, even when, and she does it twice in the movie, I think. Once in that scene where, like, she, like, looks at her, like, kind of, but also, I'm not going to let you know that. Right. Before she tells her about the pebble in the shoe. And then again, when she's brushing her hair and she's like come here child like let me look at you yeah and she looks at her and her face softens for like again a tenth of a second and then she's right back to being horrible yeah oh that was so effective to me because she's like oh you have so

much of your father in you and Danielle is very clearly touched by this and takes it as a great compliment. And as soon as the Baroness realizes that, that she has done something to accidentally compliment Danielle, she does a 180 and she's like, well, yeah, it's because you have such masculine features and you being raised by a man made it so because you have such masculine features and you know you being raised by a man made it so that you're built for hard labor and all this mean stuff just like anytime

she starts to have a feeling she turns mean and like goes to the extent of like i'm having a feeling and so i'm going to sell you to a molester like she is truly evil and i like i do like that the movie doesn't shy away from like how awful she can be right yeah and i love that the whole thing was like oh my god you lied to the queen about danielle being like so like danielle being shipped away. That was the big egregious thing for them. Like, you lied to the queen. Somebody saved her from being shipped off to the Americas. And I'm like, she's done so much worse than lying to you. What about Danielle being shipped away?

Like, she beat her. They don't show it on the version where it's streaming. They skip past it. But on the DVD, if I can find it, they actually like you can hear her being beat. Oh, because you see the aftermath of her getting lashed and like the wounds that she has on her back. So in the DVD version, you actually see that? You can't see it but you hear you oh i see okay yeah wow which makes it even worse yes she's proud oh this movie goes there

much like degrassi it goes there um sorry i love that tie. That was beautiful. Thank you. Shout out to all the Degrassi fans that remember that tagline from 2005, 2006? I do. I do. Degrassi. It goes there. Okay. Let's get, because we're kind of in this area of the story anyways, let's talk a little bit about Marguerite and Jacqueline. I don't really know how much there is to talk about marguerite i like i think it's interesting that in in all of these adaptations there's always like

the alpha stepsister and the beta stepsister as it's presented to us and marguerite i think that what is like more clearly telegraphed in marguerite's case is that yes she is the favored daughter by her mother. But like you were saying, Caitlin, it's just because her mother sees her as a means to an end. It's not actually like, I love my daughter so much and I hate my other daughter. Like it's clear that the Baroness is going to be kind to anyone she finds useful and marguerite is the daughter she finds useful and you can already see like there's just like this wild generational trauma story going on with them because you can already see marguerite taking on those negative qualities that her mother

has to get through her life so right i have so many thoughts tell us okay so marguerite the actress who plays marguerite i wish her the best in life i hope that she's prospering but marguerite the character oh i want the worst i have never in my life been i was like if i could jump into this tv and fight her i would do it because I find that like the thing that I find the most interesting about the two stepsisters is that the Baroness looks the most like Jacqueline right to me it looks nothing like Marguerite and I think that's on purpose because I think it's basically a commentary about how the Baroness wants to be so far removed from herself that it makes sense that she has this idea of who she should be and what her life should be like and Marguerite is closer to that

than Jacqueline is because she's sort of the like Jacqueline is sort of a mirror to her physically of what like she is now and Marguerite can be the thing that she's after but i do find very interesting is the relationship between marguerite and jacqueline like marguerite is so nasty to her in like small ways you know not only is the mom calling her fat and saying she's only there for the food marguerite is laughing and like going along with it and there's also a point in the movie that i don't think we talked about where danielle is like hungover and the mom's like go make us breakfast or eggs or whatever it was like a poached egg something and she's like you have two hands go do it yourself right and they make jacqueline go do it she's like i'll go boil the

water like you go and jac Jacqueline's like so what about Danielle which I think was like a moment for her but I still love her to pieces because I think she showed up for her when she needed to but I also find it really funny how immediately when Danielle was like I'm not getting up don't make me do it she was like okay well Jacqueline you know what you have to do like get in the kitchen you know go boil the water and I just think that that's so funny because even though the it's often the trope where it's like there's one good daughter and one bad one it's interesting how immediately she's treated as close to Danielle as possible when Danielle is like predisposed or not there or something which i think also bonds both danielle and jacqueline

i love every word of what you that's honestly i hadn't considered the specific but but it totally tracks like i i hadn't considered why the baroness is so particularly aggressive towards jacqueline and that totally scans for me as to like why she would turn on. And I think that that's something that happens in real life all the time where it's like, you know, emotionally unhealthy people tend to lash out against people who remind them of themselves if they're a self-loathing person, which clearly the Baroness has a lot of issues with. I mean, you know, it's medieval France and they're not going to therapy. So,

uh, all those emotions are just getting short blasted out at every other woman in the area. Um, I believe that's a medical term and Jacqueline's getting, I mean, Danielle and Jacqueline are getting sprayed with the most chart. Okay. This is so with that in mind, uh, I mean, Danielle and Jacqueline are getting sprayed with the most shart.

Okay, this is... So with that in mind, but I do like, and this is the only, I think, let me know if I'm missing here, but I think that this is the only adaptation that gives the quote unquote beta sister a story and and not just a story but an arc that ends with her better off and like gone on this emotional journey where she's rejecting you know the cruel behavior of her own mother i i thought it was really great and it's like i feel like it's also i don't know i mean i feel like it's implied at the end of like, well, Jacqueline and Danielle aren't going to be like best friends, but they're not.

Enemies. But they're not going to like hang out. Because why, you know. Right. Like I wouldn't want to hang out with her either. But I feel like they set it up really well because Jacqueline's the one that like tends to her after her mom beats her. Jacqueline's the one that's like, I'll never mom beats her. Jacqueline's the one that's like, I'll never forget how Marguerite's legs fell up between her head like that.

And they're like laughing while she's taking care of her. And I think that aside from the two older lady servants that Danielle is closest to, no one takes care of Danielle, right? Aside from those two and like Gustav. And I think it was really smart of them to do that so that by the time we get to a place where okay we're gonna punish marguerite and the baroness like what do we do with jacqueline it's like oh it makes sense to just pop her off on the side she has her own little maybe romance there's a lot of nods to that which i thought was really

sweet i thought i thought that was fun and I just think that I think that their relationship to each other is more like I'm gonna let you go live your life have your fun with you know my man's right hand man do whatever y'all want I'm just gonna go live happily ever after but your sister and your mom are not gonna get the same treatment yeah yeah I both stepsisters the way they're characterized i thought was really well done in the sense that marguerite was the type of shitty person that that is who benefits from her mother favoring her over her sister and a shitty person will revel in that rather than make any attempt to like stand up for her sister who's being abused and mistreated and that's just the type of person that marguerite

is and there are plenty of people like that in real life so it doesn't seem like a stretch or it doesn't seem like you know oh no one is this cruel in real life these people exist and then with Jacqueline she is used to this upscale life of coming from noble blood so she's still like in a station above Danielle but is being similarly mistreated by her mother and her sister and we just kind of see how that is chipping away at her so even though like i don't know i like that worked for me as far as she isn't as quick to like jump to danielle's defense at first because again she's also benefiting from this life of more of like higher class and noble blood and all of that stuff. But then as time goes on, and like the way she's mistreated, makes her kind of

realize, oh, I'm actually royal blood wise, I am quote unquote, elevated above Danielle. But as far as like the way I'm treated we're basically peers so it actually makes sense for me to ally myself with Danielle and try to like get out of this abusive situation and this is all done with like relatively little screen time too like I feel like it's like she's characterized so effectively in such I feel like the time we've spent talking about her is maybe the amount of time she's on screen for the whole movie. Yeah. I mean, and it's like,

whatever though. I really enjoy the, like the couple of, you know, nineties movie one liners you get towards the end of the movie. And she gets one of them where, you know, the Baroness turns to her and then,

you know, Jacqueline says, I'm only here for the food. And then you're like, okay. So she got her mic drop moment. Danielle gets her mic drop moment, like everyone's dropping their little microphones against the Baroness. And then the Baroness, like the floor opens up and she goes to work, you know, for the first time in her life. But it's satisfying. Yeah, I thought like, there's so much more to the stepmother and stepsisters in a way that is effective and also doesn't let them get away with their shit which not easy to

do i thought it was awesome yeah yeah i think so too and i feel like a lot of movies in general but a lot of cinderella movies now are like we have to redeem you know the stepmom and make them like likable and and i'm like i like i i prefer when we have movies in general where like you just let people be bad without having to feel like oh let me redeem them like i think i felt that way about the movie cool i felt like we didn't really need to we don't need to redeem her and i think that like just let her be bad like either way like i'm sorry that her mom died because dalmatians like attacked her like they were running and she because she didn't get out of the way does that what happens i haven't seen it that's so goofy i don't want to spoil you then i'm sorry wait no that just makes me laugh so much

is it is it like there's and they're serious about it they're like she has dalmatian related trauma they're so serious about it like maybe the most serious that's very funny so fun i mean i when someone goes that one-to-one i'm like you know what i guess i gotta hand it to you because that is like a level of ridiculous that wouldn't have even occurred to me right and so i like yeah i think about what you said kate where it's like they're allowed to be evil without danielle being like well i forgive you you know because life's too short like yeah maybe it is but just let people be like i think that it's okay for people to not forgive someone who has hurt them as much as i mean this is like years and years and years are built that hurt you and they're

like no you don't have to forgive her you don't have to be like oh you know she learned her lesson and blah blah blah but also i think that's something really important to note about marguerite is that immediately marguerite was like what have you done mother like i can't believe you yeah the queen was like you know like you're gonna be straight up to the americas like i can't believe that y'all did this to this girl and to like me specifically the the queen speaking of course and it's just like so funny to me because it does show how different marguerite is to jacqueline where it's like I'm gonna immediately turn on you in the hopes that something is gonna happen that'll be better for me and then they end

up in the same spot and the Baroness is like I'm royalty or something when she tells her to go do something yeah I'm management yeah I'm management that's what it was she's like no you're not you're the same as me nobody it's just really smartly done. Oh, yeah. I love it. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for more discussion. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the

culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad free subscribe to the iHeartTrue Crime Plus channel available exclusively on Apple Podcasts

I've been thinking about you I want you back in my life it's too late for that I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120.

She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything?

You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago, when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today.

And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. And we're back. Should we get into Danielle? Let's talk about Danielle.

Let's do it. The first thing that stood out to me, I mean, there's a lot. We've obviously been discussing her the whole episode. But something that I, again, just like adaptation wise and character wise, I really like that this script updates the Cinderella character to like she saves herself. She is, I think think like very intelligent and capable in a way that isn't Mary suing her we don't see her suddenly knowing how to sword fight when there'd be no reason that she'd know how to sword fight stuff like that but also like something that is so tricky about adapting this fairy tale is that there's a core gentleness and kindness

attributed to Cinderella that I think is a little at odds with how a lot of 90s heroines were presented but this movie like has it all of the ways in a way that I thought was like really unusual and cool of like Danielle is very very motivated. She's very empathetic. She's very active. She liberates herself. But also she has a very patient and gentle and kind nature, but is also strong. I just thought it was like, really cool and well done. And you just don't see a lot of characters that can embody all of those things when there's so many people who who are like that totally yeah and i also really really love her relationship with new staff like i i think the addition of that is so special because she's like

first of all here's this man no interest we have no there's no tension between us that's romantic he's just my friend i can like talk to him about this prince but also you know tease him about like you know beating him up and beating him at games and like even when they're like they're kids and the reason that her outfit is messed up in the beginning is because she was playing with him and hanging out. And, like, he supported her decisions throughout. Like, when she was like, I'm going to go into town and, like, get Maurice back. And he was like, I wouldn't suggest it, but I'm also not going to, you know, keep you from doing it. Here, let me fix your hair. Like, I just think that the addition of him is so nice because she literally at this point has no one else

right you know except for like the two older ladies and in the same way it's like i i feel like sometimes with the gustav character or like whatever the when people who are not the same gender are best friends it's always implied that one of them is like pining for the other and it's like your soulmate is and it's like gustav is like no this is my friend like this is my friend i will support her if shit hits the fan i will bring leonardo da vinci into the equation as a friend that's right as a friend yeah to break her out so she can get her guy it's nice i yeah i like that and that's just like an un it doesn't even need to be addressed because it's just like it's clearly a strong friendship I love it yeah I agree and I like that that like

kind of her kindness and her empathetic nature is used in this story to address class concerns which I think is like such a good use of that like classically Cinderella quality that I feel like is used in other adaptations to make her very demure and to kind of flatten out her personality but in this the way it's used in this screenplay it like it completely elevates her and gives her this mission that is completely you know unrelated to a relationship and it makes total sense because she is being treated like garbage by a step parent who is very fixated on class in a very negative way so of course these are concerns and her and the main people that she interacts with are servants who are being actively oppressed and so it it's like, I thought that the class,

unlike the well-meaning but pretty clunky attempt to address class in Ella Enchanted, which is the other adaptation where it comes up, I felt like the way that class issues and the way that Danielle approaches class issues in this movie was really clear and for the most part like really really effective yeah i completely agree danielle is like a leftist president of her local chapter of the dsa like yeah she's medieval france dsa she's like her various monologues i wrote a lot of them

down because i was just like good damn, this is some good stuff. She's saying stuff like, you know, you can't deny people access to education and a means to survive and then punish them when they have no choice but to become thieves. And then Henry's like, wow, I see your point. I'll release this Maurice guy. and then she's like yeah okay well you released him but did you even give a second thought to the several other people who had you had imprisoned and like what about them and i was like holy shit like i wasn't expecting that at all i love it she basically is like she's like performative do more do more she tells him she's like, performative. Do more. Do more. She tells him, she's like, you've been born with privilege. And with that comes specific obligations, which is the same thing that his mother said to him earlier.

But his mother meant your obligation is to marry royalty and become a king. Danielle, when she says it, she means that you have to use your elevated status and your position of privilege to do good in the world which is why i don't hate that like at the end of the movie after she's like been you know monologuing about leftist issues and class inequality that she then becomes a princess i'm like okay well at least she's probably going to use her new station to enact change and do good in the world i mean that's what they all say but i think she might though because she got him to invite the thieves to the ball and like didn't they implement like a library that everybody could go to like so stuff

was happening even before she became i'm biased obviously but like even before you're like no she's good she's great she's everything he does yeah prince henry does say like i have this great idea i'm gonna start a university that anyone can attend regardless of their station in life and then he tells danielle about it and says that she inspired him so he's like acknowledging that her ideology is influencing him not enough that he doesn't scream at her to get out of his face when she's outed as a servant and a commoner at the ball which is like okay sir did you learn nothing we all have some growing to do it's so like i think it's interesting how because i that's maybe like i'm like maybe that's too real where but i like like the issue of class and the fact that danielle is very

confident and passionate about her views on class is part of what attracts the prince to her. But at first it's in this way that is like, oh, God, it doesn't feel good to see on screen where it's like he's drawn to her because he's like, oh, you're so passionate about this, this and this. That's so hot to me that you care about something. But then it's like it's hot to him to an extent like you know like once it becomes intrusive to his life he shuts down and like once he's like oh you're not like a rich girl that cares about the poor you're a poor girl that cares about the poor fuck you like i don't know like i it just, I thought that there was a lot going on with the prince's, you know, class awakening, which I would argue is not fully complete by the end of the movie. And it's not supposed to be.

Either it needed to happen earlier in the movie, or they needed to find a way to add something at the end of it to where it made sense that he was like, all right, my bad. I was wild and and basically what i mean is that everybody should should you know be much more equal and we should have opportunities for everyone because just ending and i'm like i love you and i'm gonna love you and i'm just gonna deal with you loving loving poor people you know what i mean right right like it's like oh this is a cute quality of my wife's that i like she gives a shit about poor people like it's like all right the which is you know classic rich guy behavior i don't love it anyways uh yeah him him's like i confess the plight of the everyday rustic bores me blah blah what i like, even though I think that, yeah,

the decision for him to really publicly humiliate her when he finds out that she is not Mrs. Upper Middle Class or whatever the fuck he thought she was. I was just like, if you're going to make that choice, he's got to really give a spectacular apology, which doesn't really happen. But I do like that it's not like i was a little worried because i feel like this is kind of like an ella enchanted thing too of you know danielle is

definitely the strongest character in terms of like turning his head to the clear class issues and i mean there's like another great quote from her where she's like, you claim to love this land, but you don't love the people who make it what it is. Like, what the fuck? What are you taught? Like, the working classes makes the land what it is. But there are like, I was worried that it's like, oh, it's just her that's going to wake him up to this stuff, which kind of like, I feel like feeds into a narrative of like, I'm fixing him. But there's also other elements that are bringing like, I feel like that's how the Da Vinci character is used pretty effectively. It's like there's the prince is encountering class issues because he's just out in the world for the first time, Jasmine style. And like Danielle is a huge part of that, but she's not the only part of that.

So it's like he's kind of on this whole side quest journey and i like that it was characterized of like it's not just her but she's a part of it yeah that's nice that worked for me what doesn't work for me quite so well is that i do appreciate that what he likes about her is her passion and intelligence and conviction which is more than you can say for most romantic storylines in most movies across genres where you're and we talk about this all the time on the podcast where it's like we're not sure why they like each other aside from the fact that they are near each other and they're both attractive people so at least we get more about why he likes her i'm not really sure why she likes him um especially because he is a pompous asshole for most of the movie and the part where she's like she's trying to like tell him that she is a commoner and like you know reveal her truth

she says something like oh why did you have to be so wonderful and i'm thinking like was he so wonderful at any point but hitlin listen you can be a leftist and be addicted to dating pompous assholes yeah i'm not pulling from it but doesn't she say that though when he like right after she gets beaten up because i feel like okay i'm i'm not pulling from but doesn't she say that though when he like right after she gets beaten up because i feel like okay i'm i'm gonna be a uh apologist for a second but it's not a day go for it so basically when she says that to him it's like whatever she gets beat up because she was like gone the whole night with him right and like yeah he's a jerk but like he wasn't a jerk like for that whole time that night right so she's probably on the high of that right because he was really laying

it down you know he was laying on thick and she was like i am into it right and then they also banter with each other they go back and forth and they like you know that's a vibe as well so as an apologist i feel like you know based off of the whole night that they spend with the thieves you know and they're like drinking and playing a game which is like basically um rock paper scissors shoot i think yeah yeah you know it's a vibe so like that's why that's why that's why she likes him i think I think it's also because she can see his potential. You know? It's like he's not all the way there yet. But she's not trying.

I don't think she has to fix him. I think she just is bringing out the things that she thinks are already there. I don't know. I feel like I'm just obviously biased because this is one of my favorite movies in the entire world. But I just feel like i see why she likes him but i do think that he has a lot of work to do yeah i i agree with that like i i think that like in terms of like because this is a kid's movie and it's like showing you how to you know you do have to be careful of like how you model relationships in movies like this and i don't

think it's perfect in that way and like i totally see what you're saying caitlin of like telegraphing to children that's like well sometimes the guy's a real fixer-upper but it's like that kind like it gets a little muddy somebody called chip and joanna like it all it all gets a little messy and I wish it were a little more clear-cut for that reason. But I also agree with you, Kia, that it's like she does... I think that that is maybe what we're supposed to believe, is she sees potential in him. It's interesting. I feel like his arc is not complete, really, at the end of the movie. But it's like he's started a journey that I hope continues.

I don't know. It's tricky. But also, it's like, yeah continues i don't know like it's tricky but also it's like yeah i don't know it seems like pickings are slim in this neighborhood she can now use she can like you know like we were talking about she can leverage the power and influence she now has to advance her own causes and you know hopefully her husband will stop you know will will unlearn a lot of the behaviors he was brought up with although you know we all know how that story ends every single time he did start that university though because yeah the framing device mentions at the end like and this portrait by leonardo da vinci of danielle de barbarac hung in the university until the french revolution when it presumably was wild ripped down and burned by the proletariat yeehaw which

like i get but also like it's such a pretty painting like did you have it's fair i kind of want i that would be like a very fun I love when people have like subtle fan stuff in their apartments I'm like that having that painting would be fun that would be fun as an ever after shout out yeah that's a flex because that's a real painting yeah right it yeah yeah I do and this is like grasping at straws here But I do appreciate that he apologizes at the end, which, as we've discussed on a number of other episodes, oftentimes in a story that involves a heteroromantic relationship where the man has wronged the woman in some way, there's often not any apology. Or if it is, it's a very kind of empty one that is not satisfying i would say that this

apology at least he says like i offered you the world and at the first test of honor i betrayed your trust so he acknowledges that he fucked up real bad i do think that he fucked up too bad and that her coming around on his apology happens way too fast but i was gonna say like i i don't oppose it happening i just wish there was like a little less end of movie rushed yeah yeah did it felt rushed if they would have done it a little faster like i think they could have cut the scene where he plays tennis if they cut that scene where he plays tennis and pushed everything up it would have made yeah and given her more time to like to digest or like even talk with another character about it and that like maybe her and goose up could have did like face masks

or something yeah i do like that da vinci shows up to the prince and is like you motherfucker she's perfect and you hurt her you fucked up so bad i was like yeah da vinci yeah that was a vibe he was like then you don't deserve her and even he just like takes her shoe and he's like here have it it's in the rain it's ruined now but just just symbolically, here's the shoe. The most genius creative decision made of all time is Da Vinci as fairy godmother, sort of. I love it so much. It's great. Beautiful stuff.

And I feel like I have to say this before anything else happens, and I'm biased again, but Drew Barrymore was in her Birkin bag, okay? She was acting down. She's so good at being endearing and loving, and you just root for her. And you're like, why is this character not getting all the things that she deserves? Like, who would be mean to her? She's perfect. And I just want to say, Drew, if you're listening, I love you with my entire heart. Please know that.

You really did what you had to do. Oh, Drew's listening. I just love her say Drew if you're listening I love you with my entire heart please know that you really did what you had to do oh Drew's listening I just love Drew of course she is I feel like Drew Barrymore would listen to a podcast I feel like I think she would just to sort of put a bow in the Danielle stuff I liked how again how this movie um gives you like the 90s heroine stuff without Mary suing her. She's a very physically active character. She's going on quests. They're quests of her own. She's not the sidekick in any capacity. There is a fight that the prince participates in that she, you know, character wise doesn't participate in, but then she picks him up in that incredible shot of she picks him up she gets into a fist fight with her stepsister she is like she's about to gut

pepe lepew like yeah right she fucking knifes pepe lepew possibly um i i just i liked that she was very physically active and capable without being you know pandering mary sue decisions i thought it was good um like yeah she happens to the plot the plot doesn't happen to her exactly right but i like that she's she's very yeah you said she's very active always doing something it's really that's really nice to see because usually it's like they're just sitting and waiting for the ball they're like hanging out usually at the kitchen table like is it the ball yet especially in like fairy tale stories and even like modern adaptations of fairy tale stories a lot of them don't really make the princess character that active or they damsel her but like was mentioned she at no point really has to be saved by a man she saves prince henry

from the band of thieves by carrying him off and then at the end this was also mentioned but when prince henry comes to rescue her from monsieur lepew she has already rescued herself and they like just meet outside and she's like what are you doing here i love it yeah like it's so yeah and it's not like i mean it is kind of that's a big deal but it's also like i did like the prince's reaction where he wasn't like, what? He was just like, oh, great. Go back inside so I can rescue you. Right.

I thought that that was a really sweet moment. Getting back to just really quick. I wanted to just like touch on the creepy benefactor character one more time. I feel like we talked about it at the top a little bit. But just to like i was again and i don't mean this is like a good or bad thing i just was like surprised that this movie went there to the extent of like danielle is being treated as her stepmother's property she is essentially sold to this creepy guy who we've seen attempt to prey on her before and there's a real threat of rape in this scene like

he's repeatedly threatening to assault her and then she's like i belong to no one least of all you and like saves herself but i was i just wasn't expect i was expecting her to maybe get herself out of the tower but da vinci gets her out of the tower and then she has to save herself from something far more terrifying and i just wasn't expecting it but i thought that the way that the story handled it was pretty effective yeah right especially because you know like she sold like the the stepmom sold all the candlesticks all the stuff that went missing to this man. When I feel like, you know,

it's not explicitly said, but it's implied. Like she understands how gross he is to Danielle. Like what he's always implying, what he's hoping for with a child, basically. And she's just like, I don't care.

Like still just, you know, here's the candlesticks. Give me money. Like, here's this in exchange for, you know, a person, but also all my items that my husband had that I'm supposed to care about. Like, I don't care about any of that.

I just want the thing that's going to propel me forward, which makes her even more evil than before under that context where you're like, you know this man is creepy. He comes to the market every week hits on danielle and you're just like all right cool say less i'm just gonna you know let that ride yeah i mean it really just doubles down on how evil she is and i think is also part of the class commentary where she's so irresponsible with her money. Like Danielle points out that she ignores the manor. She blames the servants for her debt.

She sells the servants to pay her taxes and her debts, pretends to have money to burn because there's that scene where like she's buying a brooch for a marguerite. And then yeah, all those like household things go missing. And she's accusing the servants of being thieves and like garnishes their wages until they're returned knowing that she's the one who's selling those items off but it's very much like the shitty things that like shitty rich people do blaming poor people for their problems their things that they're doing wrong yeah and then and then punishing the working class in order like as a part of her scheme to fake it until she makes it like right she is actively punishing and treating people like they're her property i hate it but the movie hates it too so there you go

right i wanted to just give some quick context on the production of this movie akia you mentioned that drew barrymore produced this movie and like really had to advocate for it being made, which is something she's repeatedly done throughout her career to, you know, very, you know, we you can listen to our Charlie's Angels episode if you want. We don't need to go there today. But I just thought this is a movie that was championed and brought to life by women and queer people so there you go uh directed by andy tenant who was i believe out and married at the time this movie came out but he also directed it takes two he'd later direct hitch he's another example along with rob marshall of uh the dancer and kenny ortega oh my Marshall of the dancer and Kenny Ortega. Oh, my God.

For the dancer to director pipeline. One of my favorite pipelines because he's I mean, I could talk about him for a long time. But his debut was he was he's a background dancer in the original Grease. And then like slowly worked his I don't know how the dancer to director pipeline. I don't understand it, but I'm thrilled that it exists. He co-writes the screenplay with two other writers, one of whom I forgot to look up. But he co-writes it with Susanna Grant and another writer named Rick Parks. Susanna Grant is of particular interest here because obviously she is the only credited female screenwriter. But Susanna Grant had of particular interest here because obviously she is the only credited female screenwriter

but Susanna Grant had previously written I mean she wrote a lot of 90s heroines and her debut is Pocahontas which we will do an episode with down the line that's a whole thing but she would go on to write Erin Brockovich so we've covered a Susanna Grant movie before. With Alfred Molina.

With Alfred Molina. She wrote other movies that I've seen, including In Her Shoes. Anyone remember that one? Yes. That's a Susanna Grant. And then she also, she wrote a series that came out.

I mean, she's still very much working. She wrote that Netflix I think limited series unbelievable um that came out a couple of years that was good that was really yeah so she's like a really you know talented writer who seems like throughout her career has prioritized telling women's stories so love that you know for her. And then it was also produced by two young producers that are both women. The two top credited producers are Mireille Soraya, I hope I'm saying that right, and Tracy Trench. So yeah, it was just a movie that it sounds like, like you were saying, Kia,

that Drew Barrymore pushing for this movie to be made was one of and her like using her star power for good is a huge reason that this movie exists and then it was very successful i mean it made whatever i had a 26 million dollar budget and made 98 million dollars at the box office so you know thrilled for everyone involved and I would love to read someone's thesis on the dancer to director pipeline what's going on there somebody's got to write it whoever has written it or will

write it please let Jamie know please the last thing I wanted to mention about this movie something that doesn't hold up as well as most of the other stuff in the movie is the portrayal of romani people in the movie which is a very stereotypical depiction of the way romani people are often portrayed in media which is they are thieves they are

criminals they're bandits that kind of thing which this movie completely reinforces and doesn't challenge in any way yeah that's a big that's a big fault of this movie like as much as i love it i'm like no that's terrible stop it stop it stop it please excuse me um does anyone have any other thoughts about ever after um just that it's that horrible terrible thing aside a masterpiece and that I feel like I want to see more

I want us to bring back the era of like letting female characters not forgive people who hurt them like let's bring that back let's let's let's keep going with that please and thank you like yes i know i believe in forgiveness blah blah blah but also let's let's normalize punching steps this is in the face right we've like been circling around this

idea for a while i it first like really bothered me in toy story 4 but of like this trend right now like we need to humanize all of our villains to the point where we forgive them by the end and i'm like i do kind of miss pushing the villain off a cliff like i like the idea of not leaning on stereotypes and and weaponizing a lot of identity against a villain, which obviously happens in fairy tales and Disney movies all the time. But I also am like, if someone is behaving evil, you can have the context for it. And you can push them off a cliff, or you can punch them in the face. Some people are so awful that they don't deserve a redemption or they don't deserve forgiveness and i would say that especially the baroness and marguerite their behavior in this movie does not warrant redemption so

i agree it's fine that they end up in a tub of purple dye and turn purple and which is i was like this is totally a little sillier than I was expecting. I liked it. It reminded me of Big Fat Liar. Literally, I was like, this is giving me Charlie and the Chocolate Factory with Violet. Violet, you're turning Violet, Violet. But yeah, I feel like that's my thing. I wish that people would either read the script or watch the movie in terms of crafting villains where it's like you give them backstory and you give them context but you don't necessarily have to make them

somehow a better person by the time that the 90 minutes or now at this point three hour movie is over agree and this movie does pass the Bechdel test with flying colors there's so I mean I think that the majority of interactions with the exception of Danielle and Prince Henry are between women and unless they are about Prince Henry usually just about what women are doing or how women are treating each other I feel like the stepmother is sometimes the third party being discussed in a lot of the things sometimes it's class issues sometimes it's personal issues between women like there's no shortage of i think like almost every combination of women in this movie that could talk do for the most part yeah yeah i think so yeah and then as far as our nipple scale zero to five

nipples based on how well the movie fares looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens i think i would go a four on this one um there's a lot of things that the movie does that I think are very effective and a good example of how to modernize and update a fairy tale story which usually have problems baked into them but knowing how to do an adaptation effectively and in a way that you're staying somewhat true to the source but also putting a modern and even feminist spin on the tale, where we do have a strongly motivated character who has leftist politics and is very passionate about them and is not motivated by, like, wanting to find a handsome prince. She is motivated by wanting to do good by her fellow human being. The way the romance

unfolds, especially with Henry being a bit too pompous for most of the movie, and then treating her like trash in the third act, and then being like, oops, sorry and she's like that's okay let's get married didn't work super well for me but um it is a fairy tale movie so i i guess i'll suspend my disbelief um the movie does only have white people in it yeah and i don't know what the demographics of like rural renaissance era france was but it's a fantasy movie like it is a fantasy movie you can make those changes as well exactly yeah so there's that uh and then the representation of romani people is uh very stereotypical and harmful but yeah i think there's a lot to really love about this movie and i again i think it like sets a good example of a modern retelling of a problematic

fairy tale that does so much in the adaptation to make it actually like a feminist film. Yeah. I'd say. I'd say that as well. Who are you going to give your nipples to? I'll give one to Leonardo da Vinci. I'll give one to Leonardo da Vinci. I'll give one to the apple that gets thrown at Prince Henry.

I'll give one to the Da Vinci Code being apple. And I'll give my final nipple to Angelica Houston's eyebrow acting. Love it. I'll meet you at four. I agree with the glaring issue of the treatment of Romani people, the plot point of having Henry be extremely classist until two seconds before the movie is over.

It wasn't my favorite. There could have been plenty more racial and body diversity in particular in this movie which i think was a huge miss but for 1998 there's so much being done right i love that there are a lot of women behind this project to get it made. That makes perfect sense to me, given what the movie is. And I love that it was successful and really like, I don't know, I think it's tied with Brandy Cinderella for my favorite adaptation of Cinderella now. So Kia is just spreading the good word. I'm so glad I saw this movie. Danielle forever.

I hope her DSA chapter flourishes. So I'll go four nipples. One to Danielle, one to Jacqueline, one to Da Vinci for sure. And let's see. I'll give my last one to Gustav because he was a real one. He was a good friend. He was a writer guy. He was.

He really was. Kia, what about you? I'm going to echo your four because even though, again, it's my, I love it with my whole heart. I give it 10 stars in my heart, but reality, four nipples because Because of the same exact reasons, like the lack of diversity. It's just so funny because you're so right. The lack of diversity, the way that it treats the Romani people.

And I hear what you're saying about Henry, but I feel like there were bits and pieces in there that make sense to me, but I get the vibe. So basically four nipples I'm going to give my first nipple as always to Danielle Drew Barrymore we love you and you were in your bag my second nipple will go to Angelica Houston because she was also in her bag my third nipple will go specifically to the scene at the very end when there's the confrontation between the queen the king the baroness and everybody else in the town and then my final nipple will go to leonardo da vinci because what like the fact that

this movie to me is just absolutely bonkers and also just amazing like it is just the best i love it so much if you want to see a movie where a lot of things happen in a very short time this is the movie for you to watch uh-huh so amazing uh and that's that's ever after folks kia thank you so much for for coming back and for bringing us this movie the cinderella tradition holds strong yes listen thank you for having me back first of all and i i'll have to think of another movie that i'm this obsessed with besides i want to remember what you've already done then i'll come back for like a third movie i'll just figure it out love it but yes i'm glad to have introduced you to ever after the american classic it's really ever after a cinderella story but also

a story about like sharting on one person's life the entire time and she finally gets her happy ending thank you i think that that did need to come back before the end of the episode caitlin hates sharts which yeah i guess sorry to shame anyone who's shart right now we have listeners who are sharting right now Caitlin so can you chill out sorry to shame the sharties but you're right

you're right where can we where can we find you online I'm too online everywhere I'm on Twitter and Instagram at Tia K-E-A-H, underscore Maria, M-A-R-I-A. I am also on Facebook at TheKiaBrown. You can also see my work at KiaBrown.com. And I also, again, have a Chuggins book coming out in August called called sam's super seats which i please please please would love for you to

pre-order because they're vital for authors and i feel like if you have a kid in your life you're gonna love this book i love this book i'm biased but it's really good yes i know i wrote it so it's like no we're so stoked i i'm like i'm so thrilled to i'm literally gonna pre-order it right now i'm so excited adore you yay and then you can follow us on social media at bechtel cast on twitter and instagram you can subscribe to our patreon aka matreon where again we very recently covered two other cinderella adaptations ella enchanted and a cinderella story those can be found at patreon.com slash bechtelcast it's five dollars a month and you get access to all the past backlog of episodes so scoot on over to the patreon and and have a ball and you can get merch at tpublic.com slash the Bechdel cast if that is lined up with your personal desires.

Okay. And with that genius outro, let's go and live. They lived. We lived. Bye-bye. Bye. Go and live. They lived. We lived. Bye-bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was assassinated.

Crooks Everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams.

Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions.

Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday.