The Bechdel Cast - Fatal Attraction with Soraya Chemaly

Episode Date: January 31, 2019

Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Soraya Chemaly discuss Fatal Attraction while something cooks on the stove, better go see what it is...(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @schemaly Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's right, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. in them are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism

the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the bechdel cast hi welcome to the bechdel cast my name is jamie loftus my name is caitlin dorante and this is our podcast about the portrayal of women in film oh i said film today wow yeah it is you're you are right we are the esteemed podcast that we are do you know a fun fact about us we were not in the top 200 podcasts of the year oh bummer i know well tell your friends about us and uh and get us into the top 200 people. People hate women. It's true. And that's why we have to do this podcast. We base it loosely on the Bechdel test, or we use that as our jumping off point to initiate

a bigger conversation about representation and portrayals of women in film. Film. Film. We're not a film podcast. We're assholes now. Sorry. We're pretent women in film. Film. Film. We're not a film podcast. We're assholes now. Sorry. We're pretentious as fuck. Sorry.

And if you don't know what the Bechdel test is, it is a media test created by Alison Bechdel, and it requires that a film have... A flim. A flim. Have two female identifying characters who are named they must speak to each other and their conversation cannot be about a man and by our standards it has to be at least a two-line exchange oh you think it'd be easy but it's not films actually are not film good are bad which is why we do this podcast because we hate movies uh really quick

thing that will not pass the Bechdel test but I feel compelled to tell you because I was so shocked also I have a male dog now which I know is upsetting but I am training him to be you know an ally oh good okay he started humping my leg and I was like, honey, ask consent. You did not consent. I will consent. You may hump my leg. And then he continued. I'm like, he's learning.

Oh, good. So I was walking my dog yesterday because I do that now. And I was catcalled from, wait for it, a Lime Scooter. Someone passed me in a L scooter was like you're beautiful i was like oh my god it was barely moving faster than i was and he was just like you're beautiful and like passed me and my doge and i it was unbelievable okay a couple questions misogyny is alive and one if you are cat called when you're with a dog does that mean you're being dog called question number two how many nipples does a cat

call have zero oh yeah yeah zero well i'm sorry that that happened to you i'm also sorry but i'm i almost wonder if it was history making was that the first time that someone had had the gall on their way back to presumably their grandma's house? So that's the update on me. Dog, cat called on a lime scooter. We're caught up. Wow, proud of you. Thank you. So the movie we're talking about today.

The movie today is Fatal Attraction. And let's just get right into it. Let's introduce our guest. Let's do it. She is the author of Rage Becomes Her, The Power of Women's Anger, Soraya Shamali. Thanks so much for having me today. Thank you for being here. Yeah, we're so psyched to talk about this very bizarre movie with you. Yes. So what is your history your relationship with this movie Soraya well I I really do associate this movie with like peak

Susan Faludi backlash that's my first association with it I mean I remember when it came out I remember all the discussion around it I remember variations on its themes over the years. Yeah, that's that's how I think of it. When was the first time you saw it? Oh, I saw it in the theaters when it came out. It seems like along with everyone else in the entire world at that time. Well, you know, it was so notable. I mean, there were women gaining power, and that's always a frightening specter. And so these depictions tend to have a lot of resonance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll talk about it. Jamie, what is your history in relationship with the movie? I have seen this movie a couple of times. I think i saw it for the first time in college as

a part of probably the worst film class i ever took i think that the gender dynamics in this movie were completely not discussed in the class it was just like this is how you write a thriller this is what a good thriller is and I remember being the the first time I was not the appropriate amount of horrified I think because I was just like 18 and didn't know anything about anything yet sure um but I've seen it a few times since and with every with each passing viewing there's like new stuff you see or have learned in the intermittent time where I'm just like Jesus it's just, yeah. Yikes.

Same. I saw it for the first time in college too. This was like when I was like, you know, a young film student hungry to consume all of the media that I could. And I knew about this movie. I already knew about the boiling bunny scene. So like, that's what I knew going into it. I saw it just that one time and then didn't revisit it until we were prepping for this episode but um yeah it's uh it's a wild

this is what this is one of my mom's favorite movies oh Jill is it really yeah she's I mean and she was it's weird because she was about my age when this movie came out. And she was like, oh, it's weird. But her opinion, her opinions on it, she seems to both be aware of the issues, but still really loves the movie where her whole thing was. She's like, well, yeah, Michael Douglas is so horrible. I'm not going to like fall for like him being the good guy, but I love the movie. And I love when Glenn Close yells. I was like, that's valid.

Sure. Wild. Okay. So should I, should I do the recap? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so we meet Dan Gallagher played by Michael Douglas.

He is a lawyer, sick lawyer living in New York City. He has a family. His wife. His wife, Beth. And they have a young daughter, Ellen. Oh, God, I love the daughter. She's so cute. She's cute.

And the baldest woman in charge. She is. Yes. She's got a very short haircut. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he and his wife go to this work function, and that's where he meets Alex Forrest. That's Glenn Close's character. Who, upon meeting her, seems very normal, a little flirtatious.

Sure. That's it. And she was recently brought on to work as an associate editor at the publishing company that his law firm represents. I think I have all of that right. So Beth, Dan's wife, goes out of town for a few days. His wife. And Dan and Alex cross paths again, because they're like working in the same vicinity. And they are in a meeting together. And then it's raining. So they're like, oh, we can't be outside. Let's get a drink together. Such a tenuous scene where they're like, it's wet'm like you live here yeah he waits to open his umbrella until after he's already

standing in the rain it's i think this whole movie could have been avoided if he had just like been better at umbrellas yeah there's god it's like it's raining so i'm horny okay end of first act. Yeah. So they get a drink together. Then things escalate from there. They wind up at one of their apartments. They frick.

We only say frick. They have sex, for those of you who don't know what fricking means. And then they spend a couple days together. And I wrote down coital bliss and i regret writing that but that is what i wrote so i'm so sorry i know i forgot that we only say frick okay oh frick bliss fricking um at the end of these couple days he's like look i gotta go and we can't see each other again because i have a his wife and um who is in the country trying to further domesticize him the movie would have you believe by trying to find a house for him

to commute into the city and have a nicer whatever something about school districts and space and grandparents this upsets alex uh that she's told that he doesn't want to see her again. And she gets a little aggressive and she's yelling at him and she's kicking him. And then as he's about to leave, it's revealed that she has cut her wrists in a suicide attempt. So he stays with her for a little longer and then she calms down. And he's like, OK, everything's good here. See you never. And then Beth and Ellen come back home and it seems like everything is

back to normal they're like considering buying this house um they're freaking they're freaking his daughter is doing magic tricks at him but then alex forrest shows up at dan's office and she apologizes and she's like hey i was going through a rough time i was in a crisis why don't you go to the opera with me as a peace offering? But he declines. Doesn't think it's a good idea. There's a whole overture of Madame Butterfly and how, which this becomes important with the ending the movie did not use. Right.

Where the female protagonist kills herself at the end. But that we'll get into it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it seems like Alex understands. He says, you know know it's not a good idea i'm a married man we shouldn't see each other again and she's like okay cool and but then we cut to her at home and she's like crying she's turning a lamp on and off over and over again she's not doing well that scene is insanely long yeah it is, that's just a thought. Loose thought. And then she starts, like, calling his office and calling his home.

And he does agree to meet up with her to be like, hey, stop bothering me. It's over. But then she's like, I love you. And also, I'm pregnant. Gregnant, sorry. I agree. Yes. And she says she wants to keep the baby.

So then she shows up at his apartment and is hanging out with his wife. His wife. Because she feigns an interest in buying the apartment that they are selling because they're moving into this new house. And he had unlisted his number. She gets his new number, and she's like, hey, I'm going to have this baby. And Alex threatens to tell Beth. He's like, you know, if you're not a part of this,

like I'm going to tell you you're his wife. And then it seems like that might have worked. And then they move into their new house. He gets his daughter a pet rabbit. But then Alex pours acid, I think. Does something to his car I think it was acid yeah she pours acid on his car

and then she sends him an audio message on tape which is basically a podcast she's just like hey you suck and I hate you she uses some homophobic slurs here Dan goes to the police and he's like hey can something

be done about this but they are not helpful beth comes home there's a pot boiling on the stove she takes a lid off of it and it is their daughter ellen's bunny rabbit boiling on the stove and she's like what the hell dan is like oops gotta tell you something had an affair she's pregnant she and she's boiling our pets she's pregnant and crazy is the implication and uh dan's his wife is a very traditional his wife yes says i'm mad i'm mad get out of here but then in the next scene they're it's together temporary separation yeah and beth tells alex that she will kill her if she comes near her family again but then alex kidnaps their daughter ellen also are we to believe that like the teachers at ellen's school just had no idea what the mom looked like

because they're like no she got picked up already right i thought that we would maybe for that when we saw alex again she would have had like maybe dyed her hair to like make her look like beth but that didn't happen so yeah they just like let any random woman pick up the children from this school i think she brings ellen to, like Coney Island or something? Yeah, they ride a roller coaster. And Beth is driving around looking for Ellen and she gets into a car accident. But Alex drops off the little girl and returns her home safely. So now Dan goes after Alex.

There's a big fight. He strangles her for a little bit. She tries to stab him and then a big fight. He strangles her for a little bit. She tries to stab him. And then they calm down. He leaves. And then when Beth is taking a bath, probably like, I don't know, the next day or something like that, Alex shows up in the bathroom and she tries to kill Beth.

Dan comes running in, drowns her, we think. But then there's like one last jump scare. And then Beth shoots her. Sorry, it sounds like I'm crying crying but I just am choking on something so anyway I think Caitlin is just like it's so sad I'm so sad that Glenn Close dies I love Glenn Close she's one of my favorite actresses if you haven't seen Damages you should see it yeah um so anyway so that's the story let's take a break for a second and then we'll come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now.

The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden.

We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes! Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about

that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, you get your podcasts. of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.

I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh, my God. I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing.

Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah karaoke What's your song? Oh I love a ballad I felt Bjork's music I just was like who is this person I gotta hawk this slalom I'm not hawk this slalom

I absolutely love it It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it It was somehow gorgeous Listen when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Where to begin? Where to begin? Soraya, what are your kind of initial thoughts with this? Oh, you know, it's interesting.

I think just around when that movie came out, I had just started working. And there was just so much conversation about what it meant to have a working woman depicted as incapable of personal happiness and indeed unhinged and defeated by a happy wife at home, right? Like that, that was the whole conversation, but it was just pretty stark. I mean, it was really remarkable to see the very successful trajectory of this movie that managed to make this sort of scumbag husband somehow seem sympathetic in light of the unhinged woman. It's also funny to me because I just also remember, I just remember that the crazier she got, the curlier her hair got. That's what happens. I remember thinking, thanks so much for that.

Like just a bonus on top, right? demonizing curly haired people yeah well you know they got to be crazy i think right and so you know i think it's a morality tale and it's a pretty blunt force instrument it kind of takes a sledgehammer to the idea that here's a working woman who's very competent who's you know has a sex life that's not related to reproduction. Indeed, hell, she kills small mammals. It doesn't really get more blunt than that, right? Yeah. So yeah, I've always, I've always taken its success as kind of a symbolic step, like a clinging of that culture for sure i feel like this is a movie where like a lot of men have seen and have used as an excuse to be like yeah women are crazy haven't you seen fatal attractions story written and directed by a man that's right and it's like the my crazy ex-girlfriend the television show

there's this idea that crazy women stalk men and then maybe kill them but they certainly set out to destroy their lives. And, well, first of all, there are so many more women who are subjected to stalking, thing one, right? Right. And thing two is it's very rarely the case that women actually have more economic power, more status, more credibility as leverage

over a man that they choose to target for violence, you know? Well, that was one of the main things that stuck out to me about this movie, where we've done so many movies on this podcast that feature the reverse stalking of a male character pursuing a female character. And it is very, very rarely, I don't think in any movie we've ever done anyways, that stalking tendencies are framed as scary or unhealthy when it's done from a man to a woman. Most of the movies that the stalking trope from a man towards a woman are rom-coms that are like classic, it's like romantic. It's like, wow, look how much he loves her. He's following her. Exactly. Yeah. And it's wearing her down until she's like, yep, we're in love. And that's true love. Have you seen Unforgettable? No. No. That just recently came out. I think who is in that Unforgettable? It's a it's a similar situation where there's actually a new wife and the ex-wife is Catherine Hagel I believe

and she she turns out to be really batshit crazy and Rosario Dawson plays the new wife I don't even know if it went to theaters I saw it in an airplane to be honest but but I did explicitly watch it because because I was thinking of fatal attraction I was like okay well you know this many years later what does this look like yeah um and again actually there is this sort of cold professional woman in relief to the sort of softer mellower literary arts magazine person and one is crazy and and one is not yeah there's i mean the like the fatal attraction model i feel like it's been recycled so many times and like based on the the permutations of it i've seen rarely strays from the format no matter what year it's

coming out in where uh our producer sophie was bringing up beforehand a movie I remember seeing in high school was Obsessed, which is basically fatal attraction, but Beyonce plays the good wife. And it's the same story, but just a worse made movie. It's the same story. And another movie that we've covered, Single White Female, which came out a few years after Fatal Attraction. But it's, you know, about this woman who targets another woman and basically, you know, copies her life and goes after her boyfriend and just like similar, unhinged, scary, stalkerish behavior. And I don't know if filmmakers of this time were like, yeah, we got to like to stay in their sphere, which is considered exhibiting power within the context of relationships to men. You know, I think really the more power women have in the culture institutionally, the more

these narratives kept putting them back into these domestic arenas where they could duke it out. It's interesting because I feel like this movie in particular is kind of firing on all cylinders in terms of putting women back in their place and making a female character who on paper seems to be pretty progressive, and empowered and turning her into this monster, because there is a professional element to this where Glenn Close is very successful in her chosen field and that is demonized against her she's unmarried that is demonized against her and she is older and and that is held against her too which I thought was especially strained in this movie where I was just trying to catch up on the context of when this movie came

out and there was that newsweek story that i've heard referenced before but there was a story that came out in 86 that was like women over 40 are more likely to get killed by terrorists than married like yeah like which is a soundbite i'd heard before, but I was like, oh, that was reported as news. Cool. And so to see an older woman and also women who have casual sex lives, like we're told to believe with the Glenn Close character, like, even though it seems like she wants casual sex, every woman is actually like going for your seed, no matter what, like kind of a chump in Michael Douglas's case. It's like, nope, you can't be a woman over a certain age and not be like dying to reproduce with whoever. Right. She says something like, I'm 36. This might be my last chance to have a baby. And, right, it just perpetuates this idea that like, you know, women be baby crazy, women be trying to trap a man with pregnancy. I forget which episode we talked about this on before, but there's like this male fear that like women are just like out to get pregnant by you so that she can trap you in her little talons and like keep you destroy your life

yeah like it's right so have you seen the stars born remake oh have we we all saw it together in the theater so what what kind of cracked me up about that also having seen the first one like i don't know how old i was like like seven. But this one in particular struck me as quite a remarkable presaging of me too. And everything that's come since because in fact, at the end, all I kept thinking was, okay, so in order for a woman to self actualize to be professionally successful, a man literally has to die. We did an episode about this movie and I don't, we didn't put it in those words, but I mean, yeah.

But yeah, he had to, yeah, for her to have a fun show. Yeah. And there's a British show called, I think, The Bodyguard. Have you seen this? No. A bodyguard. He's in charge of guarding the British Prime Minister, who was a woman. And it also, I don't want to ruin it for you, since you haven't seen it, but it has a very similar leitmotif, that there are women and that they have power, and that the man is repeatedly constrained, punished and destroyed by that fact.

Well, it seems like reparations. I know. Fair. There's a number of reasons why I would hope that this movie couldn't be made today in the same way, at least. Like, there's certainly plenty of masked misogyny in movies coming out now, but I feel like people at least have to take at least one or two precautions but uh the way that we are conditioned by this movie to be like oh no the conflict is like woman versus woman where the wife you know picks up on alex totally takes it at face value oh well my husband said she's nuts so i'm just going to take that at face value whatever that even means and threaten to kill her on the phone yes which is right and then the fact that ann archer's

character kills glenn close at the end is very like okay so domesticity when and you know fidelity and standing by your man regardless of what a chump loser he is, will always win the day and take down any woman in your path that will prevent you from that. Right. It's also, I think, a really good example of punching down, being allowed to punch down. In the book that I've written about anger, there's a lot about this idea that, you know, people who don't have power or status compared to other people can't express their anger at their oppressors or at the people exerting power over them. So the anger gets diverted. And so in day-to-day life, it means maybe somebody goes to work and they get really angry and frustrated, and then they go home and they yell at their children, right? Or they get

angry at someone in the line at the market or something. But I think it's a pretty good example over and over again when we see these stories where women's acceptable anger is aimed at other women, because there are times when we can be acceptably angry. We can be angry at other women, we can be angry at our mothers,

and we can be angry at men with lower status, like men who are black or brown, right? But we can't be angry, the anger can't be aimed up. And it can't be aimed horizontally at men we consider our equals. And that's a test I use when I look at these movies that exhibit women's anger. I'm like, okay, well, how is the anger allowed to be used? Right. Because Beth is angry much more so at Alex than she is at her husband. There's a brief outburst where she's like, get out of here. But then in the next scene, he's back at home. You know, they're like, figuring this out together. And the issue is that like Glenn Close was a temptress who per, you know, Beth and Dan's version of the story, they're like, well, she tempted him to the point where he couldn't resist.

And so she can't control himself. Right. Yeah. And we just accept like, well, men can't control themselves. So sure. They should make more money than us can we talk about the endings debacle with this movie hello anderson there's a dog uh yes yeah because the way the movie ends caitlin was re-rewatching the end of the movie when i came in today and there's so much about it that is confusing and it's because that wasn't supposed to be the actual ending of the movie so and i remember reading about this a while ago but like revisiting the journey of this movie ending the way it does which is by glenn close like surprise she isn't drowned and she gets killed by the wife.

And so women shouldn't have jobs, and they should marry guys named Dan. Sure. Great. But the way it was originally supposed to end, which is so well set up in the movie, like, regardless of if you like the movie or not, the movie's supposed to end like Madame Butterfly, which they recap in full in the movie, not the movie's supposed to end like madam butterfly which they recap in full in the movie which is that once the man leaves the woman she kills herself in you know despair right and that's how the movie ended and that's filmed it exists you can i'm pretty sure

watch it basically frames him because she makes sure his fingerprints are on the knife that he picks up to almost you know or to whatever happens that scene um so his fingerprints are on the knife and then he gets arrested for her murder that's yeah that's how that was supposed to end it didn't test well with audiences so they rewrote it they reshot it into the ending that we have now. And something I thought was interesting was that, like, Michael Douglas was pro the ending that is in the movie. But the director, Adrian Lyne, or Lynn, which is it? Not sure. He directed a terrible version of Lolita. Oh, the one with Jeremy Irons?

The one with Jeremy Irons. It's sick. It is, I mean, it is a story that shouldn? The one with Jeremy Irons. It's sick. It is. I mean, it is a story that shouldn't be filmed in the first place. Correct. But the way he does it is disgusting. But anyways, the director and Glenn Close were so resistant to change it, but they were studio notes into Oblivion.

And that's why we have the very confusing ending that exists now. Right. Yeah. So like Alex shows up in the bathroom. She like got in undetected into their house, is in the bathroom with Beth, has a knife and makes stabbing motions at Beth, but somehow doesn't like she's striking her with the knife in her hand. But she doesn't get stabbed somehow. I guess she's punching her with the fist that she's holding the knife in. Not clear.

And then Dan has to come in and save her. And then Beth ultimately shoots Alex to death. So it's like, right, the domestic figure triumphing over this woman that the movie has made you believe is evil. And like, I have to admit, I was like falling for it, even as I was watching it this time. Like whenever he's trying to kill her, I was like, yeah, she kidnapped a child. She like boiled a rabbit. Yeah, like she's a bad person. I want her to be defeated.

But then I was like, wait a minute, this is the movie manipulating me into thinking this and i shouldn't be feeling this way because the way the movie handles or doesn't handle like mental health and framing her as this unhinged woman without yeah i mean this this movie has no regard for a lot of things but like meant that the use of like the crazy woman trope is so i mean it's not just hack and tired it's so oblivious to any any mental health issue right um in fact according to the amazon prime trivia that pops up when you're watching it there um boo to amazon but anyway in a 2013 interview with cbs news glenn close admitted that she would have rethought her portrayal of alex forrest because of her fear that the film's popularity may have been a contributing factor toward mental health stigma. Close said

that I would have read the script totally differently. The astounding thing was that in my research for Fatal Attraction, I talked to two psychiatrists, never did a mention of mental disorder come up. Never did the possibility of that come up. That, of course, would have been the first thing I think of now. So she has, you know, in recent years, you know, what seems like expressing regrets on how this movie frames. So good. Good for Glenn. Because right, the way I mean, she attempts suicide, and then she acts increasingly unstable and unhinged and violent and stalkerish. And also, like, very clearly paints the suicide attempt as like, oh, it was strategic and she just wanted to reel you in and keep your attention. And like, this is why someone would do that. And yeah, it's all, you know, I think I think it's interesting, too, that this movie came out maybe six or seven years before Bill Clinton became president and was a real cultural moment. Right. It was just huge. It was a global success. And then, you know, maybe I don't know, not very long after that, you had Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, and you had issues with Hillary Clinton, and, you know, whether she would stand by her man or not.

And all of that feels like one long cultural nightmare moment, right? Yes. Like, just the narrative of the film, the message it sent, the idea that somehow women are in control of men's sexuality and that they can be absolved of responsibility for the havoc they've wreaked. And that indeed Bill Clinton abusing the power that he abused in the White House, it can step back while the two women duke it out publicly, right? Right. And those feel very similar to me in terms of how the public deals with those issues or wants to deal with those issues or not. I agree. I mean, just the concept of a homewrecker seems to be very prevalent in this and then the years that come after the 80s, like movie, I struggle with movie, a lot of movies from the 80s

kind of for this reason where they're I mean there's misogyny in cinema in every year since film has existed but like the 80s stands out to me particularly because there were so many things in the 70s that were positive and moving women and what would appear to be you know like more movies about women in the workplace you've got norma ray you've got like really cool interesting movies like that but then the 80s seems to kind of revel in setting it back and being like oh wait we accidentally made women too powerful now we've got to make them scary again, and make like a woman, a competent woman, you know, somehow nullify that. Right. Yeah. But you know, I think it's interesting what we're seeing now, though, with witches, because there's resurgence of resurgence of witch

narratives, right? Because we're talking about power, and we're talking about anger. And the thing about witch narratives always is that they've always implied that there is crazy irrationality involved, and that the power women have is unnatural. It's never natural, right? It's extra natural. It's extraordinary. And it's not not rational the anger is never rational the power is never rational and that's that's the only thing that kind of really concerns me about all of these witchcraft narratives right now that's so interesting yeah i because witchcraft narratives do tend to crop up in bulk yes thank you for a while and i was i was thinking i mean this is sort of off topic a little bit the like why is both like witchcraft and like tarot and astrology seems to have come back in a major way right the past several years and i i think i sort of just

was like oh well this is probably like a societal response to dystopia where everyone wants to believe in magic again because we live in a very fashy world. But that makes a ton of sense of, you know, even though women are allowed to be powerful in these narratives, it is couched in like, but not every woman is like this. And like you have and and it's it can be dangerous right yeah it's dangerous and men are always at risk because the women have the power yeah and it's not normal right that's the point about the women's power in witchcraft it's not normal right yeah wow thank you for making me think that that's amazing we gotta take a quick break but we will be right back in a moment Yeah. Wow. Thank you for making me think that. Amazing. We've got to take a quick break,

but we will be right back in a moment. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes.

Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it? Like you miss a hundred percent of the shots you never take. Yeah. Rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.

I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song?

Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Lugie. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, Rudy. Not hawk, the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow

Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Can we talk about the, like, pregnancy and abortion aspect of this? Where she tells him that she is pregnant,

he says that he will help her take care of it. Basically, he'll pay for the abortion. And she's like, no, I want to keep it. He says, well, don't I have any say in this? And part of me is like, her body, her choice. But she says she's going to have the baby whether he wants to have anything to do with it or not and we're like okay but then a moment later she's like well i was hoping that you didn't want to have something to do with it and that's the whole like trapping him narrative of like i'm keeping the baby so that hopefully you'll want to

go out with me you'll have to be my boyfriend right and no so and then the i guess he calls the doctor her doctor and the doctor confirms that she is pregnant and i was like wait what about like doctor patient confidentiality but then i looked up when hippa was a i looked it up and hippa didn't go into effect until 96 so that's wow that yeah so you could just be some random guy and be like, hey. Is this lady pregnant? That's so, wow. Well, there you go. Because this movie came out in, what, 87? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right. And now we live in a time where Amazon will tell you if you're pregnant before you know. Right. Jeff Bezos knows about every drop of semen on the planet. And then a little bit later, the Dan character says like, look, whether or not you want to keep it, it's your choice. So I'm like, OK, pro choice, Dan Gallagher. Good for him. But again, it just it it does so much to reinforce this idea that so many men have, which is that, yep, women are crazy. You sleep with them and it's fun for a second, but then they're going to go ape shit on you and they're going to trap you and they're going to, you know, stalk you and this and this and that.

The thing that's most telling to me, and I guess why I brought up the two endings in the first place, is that, you know, at least two of them. And there was also, oh God, I can't remember what her name is, let me pull it up but the director Glenn Close and a producer named Sherry Lansing who was like a very powerful producer at this time were all against changing the ending but the audience response

and remember this is like Reagan era so scary but like the audience response was so against it that they literally had no choice the movie couldn't get released unless the far different ending that watching it now you're like wait what is happening here unless the thing that you know reinforced these very traditional oppressive values was included. And that was like the audience's decision. And so it's like you can't even blame it on an executive, which is always fun to do. Right. It was just the cultural landscape all the time.

And I think Sherry Lansing, I think one of her responses was, what do you mean it depicts professional women badly? I'm a professional woman. Yes. Which, of course, is irrelevant. Like, really. Has nothing to do with how the movie depicts this woman. Yeah.

But that was her response in defense of producing the film, I think. Right. Which is like, I mean, I'm like, what do we make of that response? I mean, I don't know. Sometimes it's like when a woman's response to oppressing other women is like, but it's chill because like women, right? I'm a woman and I'm cool with it. So it's cool. Like, no. Right. But I also. Interesting argument. Just real quickly wanted to touch on, as per almost every movie in existence, this is an extremely white movie. But a few different times, a few of the white characters are like mocking specifically Japanese culture. Because at the very beginning, they're at this book event for this samurai self-help book.

And Dan and his friend are making fun of the japanese people there and then they do it again later on when they're like having their like couples dinner together they're like just like imitating them in a very offensive way yeah it is not good in that regard yeah and also it's interesting because it is this very specific stereotype of a crazy angry woman that is tied to whiteness, to white women. Right. Yeah. Like we know the stereotypes for black women. They're just born angry. Right. Angry black women is that stereotype. Right. And even little girls who are are black in school are target that brush. Right. Sure. And I think, too, we have like if you're Asian American or of Asian descent, right? Sure. And I think, too, we have, like,

if you're Asian American or of Asian descent, you're sad, right? You have that whole trope. And if you're Hispanic, you're hot. But if you're white, you're crazy. Like, you know, you're literally insane. And I think that depiction is one that really sticks in people's heads.

I mean, they refer still to Glenn Close's sort of mad expression and the boiling bunny, and I don't think you can separate it from her whiteness, you know? And there's different, like, variations on that as, like, you know, cinema has gone on where I think that evolves into, like, the manic pixie dream girl trope that we see and things like that. But, yeah, it is, it's like upper class white woman equals crazy i guess well i mean i and and and the like professional white woman uh is like it's like peak

demonization here and there's so many variants of that theme in the 80s of like mean that that trickles like even into now uh but of like you know a woman who is you know wearing a uh any manner of shoulder pad is an evil person and is going to ruin your life right. So like the demonization of women in the workplace, which, unfortunately, because the world white women were sort of the first women welcomed into the higher echelons of the workplace. It's, it's unfortunate. Yes. Is there anything else that anyone wants to say about the film? I have a question for you. Oh, you. Do you think it would be any different if the original ending were run now?

If this film were re-released? Right. As far as I can tell, the way the alternate ending was described to me, I don't like that ending any better because I don't like this movie. I don't think. I think it is an effective

thriller because there are moments when I'm like I'm scared but like because of the way the movie handles and or mishandles so many things and perpetuates all these negative you know tropes and stereotypes about you know kind of specific types of women and stuff like that and demonizes you know female sexuality and because there's a moment where Alex says something like I won't allow you to treat me like some slut you can bang a couple times and then throw in the garbage so on one hand like her anger is like justified because she's like you know you knew what you were doing and then you're gonna dump me because you're going back to your wife and all this stuff. But the movie like equivocates like that rational statement with insanity.

With her being, yeah, exactly. So it just, it like goes towards taking things in the right direction a couple times, but then immediately like backtracks on them so to answer your question i don't think it would have been that differently because that ending is her committing suicide and then like framing him from beyond the grave and that's just as unhinged as everything else that happens yeah i agree i don't i don't think it's a better i think like story wise it's an ending that makes more sense with the very like deeply troubled story that's been set up right so strictly for story it makes more sense but i i think that like especially where we already view her make a suicide attempt in front of him that she follows through on it at the end i don't like i don't know where that's besides mirroring madam butterfly i don't know where that's besides mirroring Madam Butterfly. I don't know what that does.

I don't know. How do you feel about it, Soraya? Well, the thing that occurred to me with the ending that was eliminated actually was, it's funny to me that you said Ben Close had commented on mental illness. Because had she done that, I think you would have been more likely to leave with the feeling that she had a mental illness because, you know, you don't get rebuffed and then try and kill yourself and then kill yourself. That's not the way that works. Right. And so it actually would have veered away from the she's just a crazy woman narrative and the use of crazy in that very negative sense to wow you know something's really wrong with this person she needs help which is a totally different thing nobody wanted to help glenn close you know

right yeah i guess that would end up eliciting a like sympathy and well i mean i don't i don't necessarily think so but i do think it was it was different because you'd end up with a different feeling right like it's just different than that hyper-violent catfighting that we got. But it's all within the parameters, as you say, of the fact that she's an unhinged woman, and that's what we're dealing with. Yeah, I'm still trying to process the events of this movie after having rewatched it, and i'm and i i can't do it it's very easily

yeah it's i mean it's so ingrained into like people who haven't seen this movie are familiar with this with the basics of what this movie did and and it's like i've literally heard you know men cite this character as a reason to not trust a certain type of woman oh yeah right that's true uh glenn close says she said in 2008 that men still come up to her and say that her character scared the shit out of them or that like her character saved their marriage which like oh my god right i don't know i guess killed a lady and we have really been doing a lot better since yeah or that they were like inspired to either tell or not tell of their wives of their infidelity i don't know i can't even imagine what

that would look like but um how much damage is everyone um well we're we're just about out of time so let's discuss whether or not this movie passes the bechdel test uh because it it does a couple times um so thinly so thinly but there is a moment between the daughter ellen and her babysitter who gets named as Christine and it's played by Jane Krakowski yeah uh they say like hey Christine hey Ellen how you doing I'm good where's your mom she's in the bathroom oh I got you a present oh I like it okay let's go find great credit for Jane Krakowski her best role yes so that passes um it passes between Beth and Alex whenever um Alex comes into their apartment and they're talking about the apartment.

They're talking about the cleaning lady. So like that's mostly happens. You know, you hear that dialogue kind of like happen off screen, but it's there. It passes. And then there is the fun moment where Beth picks up the phone and she says, this is Beth Gallagher. If you ever come near my family again, I will kill you. You understand? Yeah.

But Alex doesn't respond, so that does not pass. Well, there you go. There you have it. It's a feminist text. It passes the final test. So let's rate it now on our nipple scale, 0 to 5 nipples, based on his portrayal of women. It demonizes everything about an empowered woman basically a woman who's in control of her sexuality a career woman you know a woman who wants to have a baby like just

everything about it is she's like well she's crazy and she's you know trying to trap him yeah so i'm gonna give it zero nipples i think i'm also gonna give it zero for all the reasons you described me too yeah yeah i just i i can't stand reagan era movies um just blanket statement anything that came out during his presidency it tends to be regressive capitalistic and like just annoying to watch um I mean, I love that. And it makes me so angry. I think that I just am on Team Glenn Close forever. But it makes me angry the way that Glenn Close,

who was 40 when this movie came out, the way she was able to get a leading role was to play a character like this. There were not that many options for women, you know, even over 35 playing leading roles at this time because she was out of the ingenue zone. And so what she was relegated to were mother roles or this new opportunity of being someone who's completely unhinged.

And this was the way for her to get a leading role. You know, that's like, what kind of option is that sure zero nips so zero nipples across the board zero for me too cool well soraya thank you so much for joining us today oh my pleasure that was really fun i'm so sorry that i have to stop right now oh no that's quite all right is there anything you would like to plug? Where can people follow you online? Oh, so they can follow me on Twitter at S-C-H-E-M-A-L-Y. Whenever I publish anything, I usually share it there or also in Facebook. Great. And also, I am the director of initiative at the Women's Media Center called The Speech Project, which focuses on women's civic and political participation. Oh, very cool. And so it's always easy to find me there too. Awesome.

And read Sarai's book, Rage Becomes Her, The Power of Women's Anger. You can follow us, the Bechtelcast, at Bechtelcast on all of the platforms. You can go to our merch store at bechtelcast.com or tpublic.com slash the Bechtelcast. And we've got t-shirts, pillows, mugs, phone cases, all of the goodies you could ever ask for. We've got cool designs like strong female protagonist, feminist icon, queer icon. Non-binary icon. Non-binary icon.

Baby Grinch with nipple a lot of wild stuff in the store yeah so get it now and uh don't forget about our patreon aka matreon it is five dollars a month and you get two bonus episodes every single month. Oh no. I just felt it. I guess we did talk about A Star Is Born in this episode. Yeah, we did. And I didn't even bring it up. I know.

So there. Well, everyone, thank you for listening. Love you. Love you. And we'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was assassinated.

Crooks Everywhere unnerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers.

And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week, we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on

Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadson. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit.

Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.