The Bechdel Cast - Female Trouble with Roz Hernandez

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

This week, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Roz Hernandez ask for cha cha heels for Christmas and discuss Female Trouble (1974)! Follow Roz on Instagram at @rozhernandez and check out her podcasts, "Tickled to Death" and "Ghosted"!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Caitlin? Yes. Jamie. If there's one thing I've always said, it's this. Here's a list of things there's no need to know

anything about. There's no need to know, to know anything about the presidents, war, numbers, science, or intersectional feminism. And I've always said that. Yeah, I'll just listen to you and I'll know everything I need to know. This is the most quotable movie of all time. Caitlin, you little bitch, let me out of this bird cage. I'm going to, look, look. My favorite line is, We rarely eat any type of noodle, but I'll have a small portion to be polite. I'm a thief and a shit kicker and I'd like to have a podcast called The Bechtelcast. Name what's your favorite line listener? Pretend we opened the episode with it.

This is one of the only movies where every line is quotable and every line is screamed. It is the female trouble episode of the Bechtelcast. Welcome to the Bechtelcast. My name is Jamie Loftus. I am a shitkicker and I would also like to be famous. My name is Caitlin Durante. I am a little bitch, and I would also like to be famous. Yeah.

This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechtel Test simply as a jumping off point to get a conversation going. But, Jamie, what in the hell? I'm going to scream the entire episode, just like Divine. What in the hell is the Bechel Test, Jamie? I love you, bitch. Oops, all screamed. Okay. The Bechtel test is a medium metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechtel, friend of the show,

originally made in her comic collection. Dikes to watch out for as a one-off, a joke to sort of draw attention to the fact that there were never lesbian romances in movies. It has since been adapted to a more mainstream way. There's a million versions of it. The version of the test we use is this. Two characters with names of a marginalized gender. speak to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue or more that is somehow you know plot relevant uh really not something we're going to have to split hairs with on the

movie we're discussing today it's maybe the least interesting thing about the movie we're discussing today because the movie we're discussing today is female trouble from john waters and divine not necessarily in that order from 1974 and we have an incredible guest to discuss this wonderful movie with. We certainly do. She's a comedian and host of the podcast's ghosted and Tickled to Death, a horror movie game show podcast from Paramount. It's Raz Hernandez. Female trouble. Hi. Hi. Thanks for being here. Oh my God. I'm so excited to be here. When I got the list of potential movies and I saw this one, I had to go with this one. It's, it's a It's a fave of mine.

I'm a John Waters lady. Well, yeah, tell us all about your relationship to John Waters' uvra, to this movie specifically. So my life changed in 2003. I was right at a good age where I was very impressionable and trying to find my tribe and trying to find what I was really interested in. I just, I was preteen at the time. And I was just sort of, I don't know, I wanted to find my people. I wanted to find my thing.

And I had a subscription to Entertainment Weekly. And they released a entire issue that was ranking the best, I think it was 50 cult movies of all time. And I didn't know that word meant or anything, but I was just looking at all the movies. And just based on the pictures and the descriptions, I was like, I got to see all of these. And it was like Faster Pussy Cat Kill Kill and Rocky Horror and just so many of these movies that just completely shaped me and showed me really strong women and gender variant people and drag queens. and just all of these things I didn't know about it I learned so much from that and pink flamingos was on the list and that movie was technically unrated like the DVD of it was unrated so I could go to the movie rental place and rent technically because as a preteam that's genius yeah I love that so I watched that movie when my parents were out of town because I wasn't I honestly wasn't sure if it was like a porn or what it was but I was just like, I can't have my parents know I'm watching this. And I was so fascinated by it.

And then that led me to exploring John Waters and female trouble, which I think Female Trouble is his best movie. It's definitely like his most John Waters-Z. It's definitely a big divine vehicle, if you will. God, this is, I know that this is this is his movie, but it's Devines movie. It is just like one of the most performances I've ever witnessed. It's so good.

Yeah. Jamie, what's your history with John Waters and this movie? So I'm embarrassed to say this is, I was worried this was going to happen. I thought I had seen this movie. I had in fact seen pink flamingos. Yeah, what can I say? I got it wrong. I hadn't seen this movie before.

Weirdly, my relationship with John Water, I'm like very slowly making my way through his filmography at my advanced age. But when I was a kid, I really liked reading his memoirs because he's written a lot of books too. And I remember really enjoying it. Like I would get his memoirs from the library and they're so funny. And I like felt I had like a similar experience with David Lynch where I like fell in love with like watching interviews and like reading their stuff. but I, like, was very slow to watch the movies. No real accounting for it, but I'm slowly making my way through his work.

I saw Pink Flamingos in college and really loved it. And it has, you know, shares a lot of similarities with female trouble. But I don't know, female trouble is so special. It's just like its own thing. So this was my first time seeing female trouble. But I really liked the Academy Museum, John Waters, exhibit. that I think was last year. That was amazing.

Yes. And that, like, inspired me to go back and watch stuff that I hadn't watched, which is how we recently covered Serial Mom, which is one of my favorites. Kathleen Turner, John Water, together. Such a powerful combo. But, yeah, this was one of the few that I, for some reason, hadn't gotten around to. Probably because I thought I'd seen it already. And holy shit.

I just can't wait to talk about it. And I'm very excited to go back and reread some of his books because I just have such nice memories of reading them. They're amazing. I, yes, I have all of his books. And one really fun thing is Provincetown in Massachusetts is one of my favorite places in the world. It's great. And he lives there.

And there's a bookstore there that sells all. of his books and he just goes in when he has the time and signs them and they're all no markup or anything like there's the same price and so I re-bought all of his books autographed because oh my god yeah why not I'm from Massachusetts and my family or my cousin's family goes every year and I don't know if I brought this up in the serial mom episode my niece who's like five has this awesome picture with John Waters it's so cute I was like oh god she's going to be so thrilled when she knows what this picture means when she's older. I just, it was, but for her, it was like a nice man who she saw after Drag Brunch or whatever.

Sure. But my cousin was like, you're not going to believe what we did today. God, that's so nice. He's such a community person, too. I love hearing stories about his, like, how, you know, how great he is at keeping up with friends and, like, sending out the Christmas cards and the book collections. And I just, he's just such a good vibe. Well, he stays busier than ever, which I think personally, it's like another thing I learned from Joan Rivers.

Just I completely understand retiring and just sort of relaxing and whatever. But also these people with these creative ideas and they have to keep making. And I'm sure there's that that can be its own. hell of trying to constantly top yourself and whatever but they keep going and and john waters who's in his 80s is sharper than ever yeah and he is doing events all the time just like a couple weeks ago he was doing a screening here in l.A he has his camp that he does where adults come and do john water's themed events so he's always traveling around doing different i actually saw his reading of cereal mom during that academy show that they had and he was there doing a Q&A.

Like, he's just, he's all over the place. He loves to yap. Yes. And he keeps his ideas going. He's got a lot to say. I really, I, this is like unrelated, but it's something I've been on my mind recently where it's like, retirement is a good thing because of labor laws. But I do think there are certain people.

There's a certain personality profile. where retirement like quickens your death absolutely i just believe that i think about i've been thinking about that and he's one of those people like some people just need to keep making stuff and i like that like john waters specifically is a great person to keep making stuff because he's not precious about everything like some creatives are like he still steams down to experiment and try new stuff and like be open to failure which after a career like the career he's had I think that's so amazing. I don't know if I would be able to do that.

Like, it's just awesome. Well, I think from the start, he had a lot of failure. And he was just sort of like, well, yeah, there's going to be people that are going to hate everything I do. But there's also going to be people that really love it. Yeah. I think it's all people. Listen, I think we all need to have purpose or we have to contribute. you to the universe in some way and if we're not doing that like I do think that if you retire

and then you just sit and watch TV you're going to die and it's going to be bad like you you just have to even if it's like take up knitting and make things that you can give to people like it doesn't have to be financial or whatever but it's like you just have to keep those you have to keep the juices flow in yeah there's I volunteer with a lot of retirees who are like they're like this is my new job and you're like yeah like it's just purpose yeah yes well also for artists yeah you know it's like it's it's one thing to work as a CPA for whatever 40 years and then retire but if you're inherently a creative person or you've always been an artist you're not gonna just like stop making art because you're 65 now yeah i have to keep going you got to keep going

Caitlin, what's your relationship with John Waters? Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for asking. I like John Waters as a persona, as a public figure. Yeah. And I like the campiness and the subversive nature of his work more than the actual work itself. Fair. I get it.

I saw Pink Flamingos in college also during the great Caitlin movie binge of 2005. I feel like Pink Flamingos is on every. list regardless of what the list is. It's on every single list. If you're a film student, you have to see Pink Flamingos. You're going to see this damn movie. And I did it and I was like,

this is not for me. I understand why it's a cult classic. I understand why it has such a huge cult following. I'm just not, I think I'm too straight. I'm just not the audience for it. It's not for me and that's okay. But I do love John Waters.

again as a public figure and as an artist I just every movie of his that I've seen for the most part I'm like this is this is not the one for me exactly did you feel that way with cereal mom not as much because that as we discussed on that episode is probably the closest thing he has to a mainstream Hollywood movie right and then I like the hairspray like the 2007 hairspray musical that's an adaptation of his original hairspray from the 80s, but he didn't direct the 2007 one. So it's not, that's not a John Waters movie. I did see Crybaby also in college. I haven't seen Cry Baby.

It's also main, like more mainstream, but maybe that's just because like Johnny Depp is in it. But I don't remember that one very well. And there's several other of his movies that I haven't watched. So I don't have like the full idea of every single one of his. films. But what I have seen, I'm like, yeah, I'm not sure that one was for me. And that includes female trouble. But I'm excited to talk about it. It's a rich text. There's lots to discuss. I completely understand that. I don't think that it's for everyone. And there's, I have known gay people that do not like John Waters. So it's, you don't necessarily.

have to be gay or straight to enjoy it it's it's a type it's a type that i think finds humor and deviancy and it's it's definitely something the outsiders are attracted to it's a lot of taking down taken down the man vibe can be a thing sometimes which in theory i like yeah yeah yeah yeah It's like, at the end of the day, John Waters is, he's an edge lord. Like, that's his whole thing. And, like, in some ways, it ages in this really fascinating way. And then another way is maybe not as much. But another thing I appreciate about him or, like, just watching him do, because he's done, like, you're saying,

Ross. He's done, like, a million Q&As about most of his movies. And I watched, like, a recent one. And he's also pretty open to being like, yeah, I wish I had. And, you know, I understand why I was so wanting to engage with the Manson's, but I regret it. You know, like he's not above, you know, doubling down on stuff. Reflecting. Yeah.

Sure. But, like, when you put it into context, like, when you put a movie, like, female trouble into context, to think this is 1974. Like, that is, these people were, it's not just like a. drag queen, which at the time would have been more female impersonator, more of like a classy thing, I think is more what they were going for a lot of times, at least when it comes to straight audiences seeing these kinds of performers. It would be going to a female impersonator cabaret and he's like, wow, I can't believe that's really a man. But then you have like divine with prosthetics on her face and injecting liquid eyeliner.

Like, it is so punk. And by the way, punk rock wasn't really even a term or a subculture the way we know it until later a couple years after this. And she's got a Mohawk in this movie. It's like a trailblazer. So to think like where would those, where does that come from? And to find a group of people that are on the same page to just make these things, not to make money. They're just like making these things.

And it's just with their friends. They're all people that knew each other in Baltimore. And it's not brilliant filmmaking per se in a technical sense. But they just wanted to put these together and make people laugh. And it's wild. don't know that they would have ever thought people would be talking about it years and years later. Yeah.

I also, I didn't, I didn't do enough research into this side of it, but I thought it was like so sweet and cool that like, it seems like there was a lot of like Baltimore community support from like normies where like he was, they were able to shoot in all these different places. They were able to like shoot in a church and a jail and like. all of these places that you would expect to maybe not be open to a John Waters movie filming. So true. But, you know, I don't know.

I was like that it's just, it's so cool that like all, especially like all of his early movies are just like full on community projects where you're like, oh, yeah. Who is this random person? And it's like someone's mom or whatever. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's where Edith Massey, for example, who's in the film as Aunt Ida, she was a bartender at a local place that they went to and he was just like she's this woman needs to be on film this woman needs to be in a bird cage telling and she's great at it was not wrong yeah well let's take a

quick break and then we'll come back for the recap you know the shade you know the shade is always Shadie is right here. Season 6 of the podcast Reasonably Shady with Jaisal Brian and Robin Dixon is here dropping every Monday

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Hungry for History as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So I'm going to place a contest warning here at the top for you name it various types of abuse assault rape incest child sex

abuse like it it sort of is all there but we meet don davenport played by divine when she's a teenager in 1960 she's at school she's chatting with a couple of her girlfriends chicklet and consetta about shoes that she wants for Christmas, a pair of cha-cha heels. And I think it's so funny that this is basically the catalyst of the entire rest of the movie. But she wants these cha-cha heels as a Christmas gift. We never hear from her loving, doting parents again after the cha-cha-heels incident. Well, this sets her on a life of crime. It was a very simple ask.

She wanted cha-cha heels. and this is why you get your kids cha-cha heels if that's what they asked for. That was my favorite letterbox review of this. It was like a haunting reminder that you should always get your daughter, cha-cha-heels. Absolutely.

It's true. So she and her friends, they're very disruptive at school. Then it's Christmas morning and she still desperately is hoping for this pair of cha-cha-heels from her parents. But she opens her presence

and discovers that she did not get the shoes. she wanted. She got a pair of shoes, just not the black cha-cha heels that she asked for. So she lashes out. She throws her mother around. Her mom, not on Christmas. Her mom's like lifeless body under the Christmas tree is something that I think about every day. I feel bad for laughing, but it's a very funny image. No, you're supposed to laugh. She, she, I thought she had killed her, but then it's funny when she's just moaning, not on Christmas. So Dawn, she attacks her parents and then she runs away from home. She hitches a ride from a man named Earl Peterson, also played by Divine.

Shocking. They pull over on the side of the road and go into the woods and have sex, during which Don steals his wallet. This sex scene is wild. First of all, I was like, is this, it's hard to tell if it's consensual or not. It's very murky. And then the ADR and the slurping sounds during this. Like, the slurping sound reminded me of what you, like your noise every time people kiss in a movie. You make the scary slurp. But what is so wild is that it's divine as a male playing the man who is impregnating divine. It's just like a level of camp here-to-for unknown.

And they're doing it on a just random mattress out in the woods. And you know, because it is like, is this consensual? She's into it, I think. I came down on the, yes. I came down on the, because I was also like unclear on that. Well, because at one point, she was like, yeah, eat me, eat it, give it to me. And she, but I think at first you can't tell because it just randomly starts happening. It just cuts too fucking in the woods.

Then it becomes clearer that they're both into it. So. They're making taffy. Which sounds like a term. Yeah. They're making taffy. It cracked me up that like, I don't know, one of the, one of the many great anecdotes on the Divine Wikipedia page is that like later when she was like primarily performing music,

there was like an audience member told her to go fuck herself. And Divine was like, I have. It's in female trouble. There's a great documentary about Divine by the documentary in Jeffrey Schwarz. I think it's just called I Am Divine. Oh, yes. I haven't seen it. It's very well done. And it gives you a lot. of insight on who divine was i'll need to check that out yeah yeah it's streaming on roku tv i just didn't have time oh hell yeah i think it's on too i was gonna say it's no toby we love a toby we love a two be is everyone obsessed with two b because i i think to be is like one of the best things that's happening right now yeah i think to be genuinely is like preserving movies in a way most people like Most places are not preserving.

I don't know how they make money, but I hope they stay. I like to be. I know. I'm like there has to be some kind of dark thing going on here. But for the time being, I'm enjoying the fact that every time I go to TB, I'm like, what the fuck is this? I'm clicking on it. It's free. My dad was really into to be.

I know I've talked about this on the show before, but like I loved visiting home and seeing what my dad's recently watched on Tubey's work. I was like, you're a freak, man, where it was like, he would watch all these B movies from, like, the 60s and 70s. And I was like, all right, what are you watching? And he's like, I saw this movie called Pregnant by Mistake. And it's from 1972. And it was terrible. And I was like, great. I con.

Only on Tobe. Only on To Be. Can you find a movie that everyone hated 50 years ago. I love it. That sounds like what I watch. It's very similar. It's great. Or like every famous actor's worst movie is on TV.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Um, okay, so we have the sex scene. And then we cut to several months later. Don is living on her own and she is a gregnant as hell. And she gives birth on her couch to a girl who she named Taffy. Oh my God.

Her severing her own cord with her teeth. It's just, it's just disgusting. Yeah. she bites the umbilical cord i read that that was i think a condom filled with chopped liver oh god i really it reminds me of because pink flamingos is the one where divine is the filthiest person on earth and everyone is like competing to also be the filthiest person on earth yeah and i just love i i just love how gross these movies are like people are not making gross it's not actually safe to do what they're doing at any point.

Oh, no. It's awesome. And Pink Flamingos, Divine eats dog shit? Yes, she does. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. She does.

Look. It was at that point when I was watching that movie, I was like, yeah, this, I'm not sure this is for me. I support. I think by comparison, female trouble is tamer on, like, the grossometer. It is. I mean, pink flamingos, I love pink flamingos, but there's also, like, There's a scene with a live chicken that is hard for me.

Oh, yes. Yeah, there's a couple of things in there that are, I mean, there's a singing anus. A person's anus is shown up close. I did not remember that one. Yeah, it gets wild. Well, okay. Well, I don't know if I'll revisit pink flamingos, maybe someday. But either way, Dawn is now.

a single parent to Taffy and we see her at a series of jobs she works at a diner she does sex work she robs men like she's like mugging them on the street with the help of her friends chicklet and consetta then we flash forward to 1968 her daughter Taffy is eight years old I guess and Don is not a good parent she refuses to let Taffy have friends or go to school. She's very physically abusive. My favorite line, there is no need to know

about the president's war, numbers, or science. It's just so good. I also think and we'll get around to the spoofies fast and loose approach to child abuse. But the way that like, I don't know, like John Waters has seen every movie on

the planet, it seems like, and I was I think that the way that Taffy is dressed is supposed to a reference to the Bad Seed, which is like one of my favorite scary movies when I was a kid. I think she's supposed to look like Rhoda. Whoa. Okay. The big movie reference that I think I picked up on was Sunset Boulevard.

The like, I'm ready for my close up. Oh, yeah. At the end of the movie. Other than that, I was like, I'm not sure what, if anything, is being referenced throughout this movie. but um well i think probably a lot of what he's referencing are like horrible movies that no one wanted to revisit too so who knows but uh anyway don is again not a good parent she shackles taffy to her bed etc and then don laments to chicklet and consetta about how difficult it is to be a mother and her friends are like don't worry you'll feel better if you get your hair done at lipstick salon

by a man named Gator. We cut to Gator and his aunt Ida, who we'll talk about the weird incestual through line of this movie as well, but she's acting wildly inappropriate. And Gator has to reassure her that he's straight and he likes women. Then we cut to Lipsick Salon, which is owned by Donald and Donna Dasher. So we have Don Davenport, Donald and Donna.

Yeah, hilarious. So Donald and Donna Dasher put their like potential customers of their salon through this like interview process because they only choose like the coolest people to be clients. And Don makes it through and chooses Gator to be the stylist that she wants. then they go out and a short time later they get married and at the wedding dawn is wearing an iconic see-through wedding dress but married life for them isn't great they are abusive to each other gator cheats on dawn with other women and aunt ida and don't get along and they're constantly taunting each other we flash forward again to fly years so it's

1974 there's a dawn gator sex scene where it appears as though they have a toolbox kink yeah yeah hammered needle nose pliers

and they're having sex and then taffy who is a teenager now comes in for 14 you don't look so good is such a good line yeah There's a lot to unpack in this scene as well regarding child abuse, incest, ableism. I don't know that they were thinking about any of that.

They were not thinking about it, but we on the podcast, have to. So we'll talk about that later. But shortly after this, Don and Gator get in a huge fight. After Gator shoves a carrot in Don's mouth, seems to be the catalyst for their divorce because Don starts divorce proceedings and gets him fired from his job at lipstick salon, which forces Gator to leave town, which devastates Aunt Ida, and she's going to retaliate, so we'll put a pin in that. She's just screaming at her house for what is an unclear amount of time.

Yeah, right, rolling around on the floor. Yes. Meanwhile, the owners of the salon, Donald and Donna, asked. Don if she will be their model for a photography project they're working on, the theme for which is crime and beauty. Basically, they want to photograph Don robbing people and doing other crime. And Don agrees, but before they can start, Aunt Ida comes in and throws acid on Don's face for like revenge for forcing Gator to leave. So Don is hot. hospitalized. Her friends gather to see the unveiling of her new face, which has been disfigured from

the acid, but they're like, oh my gosh, you're even more beautiful than you were before. They put makeup on her. Donald and Donna still want her to be the model for their project. This is where they inject liquid eyeliner in her veins. They give her a makeover, a bunch of other presents, including Aunt Ida in a cage. Yeah. And they're like, here, chop off the hand that threw acid on you. So Don picks up an axe and chops off Aunt Ida's hand. And it's very convincing.

It's a really good effect. Yeah. Yeah. Then Taffy comes in to be like, mom, what the fuck are you doing? Also, why have you never told me who my real father? is. So Don finally tells Taffy the name and address of her father. And Taffy goes to the home of Earl Peterson, who is drunk and horrible and he tries to rape Taffy. So she stabs him with a knife and goes back home. Also, I will say like when this movie started, I was like, yeah, I think I might

have an idea of where the plot might go. And I was so wrong. It's just like every five minutes, the plot takes a wildly different turn that you simply cannot see coming. Yeah, I feel like it becomes a different movie genre every like 15 minutes or so. Yeah. Yes. So anyway, Taffy has stabbed her biological father and she returns home and she's completely distraught. And she's kind of hanging out with Aunt Ida, like while she's still in the cage. But then Don comes in and she and Taffy are screaming at each other. And Taffy announces that she's leaving to go live with the Hari-Krishna people, which she does. And this makes Don furious.

So Don kills her own daughter, which seems to make Don feel absolutely elated and invigorated and she goes on stage to perform this show at a nightclub. She does a trampoline act. She does her own stunts. Yes, yes. Well, we have to keep in mind she has the liquid eyeliner going through her vades. And it's really, it's really giving her a high. It's dangerous. Absolutely. It's kill your daughter, dangerous. It's bad. So she, yeah, she's, she's performing in this show. She's rolling around in dead fish. The audience is loving it. And then Don pulls out a gun and starts shooting into the crowd and several people are killed.

So Don flees into the woods. Now, wait, there is consent there to begin with it. Well, yes. She's like, who wants to be killed? Like, I'll make you famous. Somebody does, yes. Someone does volunteer. They volunteer to take a bullet.

They volunteer as tribute. She's not evil. guys she didn't just kill people she asks for consent before she murders this is true but it does cause a frenzy like you know people are scared now and she does keep shooting after then then she keeps going yes you're right you are right look but like you were saying the liquid islander i just think she's innocent of all charges at the end of the day yeah well the jury doesn't think so but anyway the the cops catch her and she's tried in court for many crimes and several people testify against her including Ida who that's a given but then her friends or who she thought were her friends

Donald and Donna Dasher also testify against Don and so they betray her then Don's called to the stand she's ranting and raving and saying that she's famous and she's the most beautiful woman alive. Look at my legs. The people who died actually loved being killed by her and the jury's like, I don't get it. So they find Don guilty and she's sentenced to the death penalty. She spent some time in prison before being executed where she meets some friends and lovers. Seems like everyone adores her. And she's excited about being executed. She's treating it like it's a another big show that's giving her fame and notoriety. And she gives a monologue akin to an awards show acceptance speech.

She's like, I'd like to thank so and so. And then she's put in the electric chair and killed. And that's the end of the movie. Well, in her line of work, that is the highest honor. Yes. As a crime and beauty advocate. Yes. Slash perpetrator.

It's a vibe. And that's the movie. We'll take a quick break and we'll be right back. May 24th, 1990. A pipe bomb explodes in the front seat of environmental activist Judy Berry's car. I knew it was a bomb the second that it exploded. I felt it ripped through. drew me with just a force more powerful and terrible than anything that I could describe.

In season two of Rip Current, we ask, who tried to kill Judy Berry and why? She received death threats before the bombing. She received more threats after the bombing. The man and woman who were heard had planned to lead a summer of militant protest against logging practices in Northern California. They were climbing trees and they were sabotaging logging equipment in the woods. The timber industry, I mean, it was the number one industry in the area, but more than it was the culture. It was the way of life.

I think that this is a deliberate attempt to sabotage our movement. Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Robert Smith. This is Jacob Goldstein, and we used to host a show called Planet Money. And now we're back making this new podcast called Business History, about business history, about the best ideas and people and businesses in history. And some of the worst people.

Horrible ideas and destructive companies in the history of business. Having a genius idea without a need for it is nothing. It's like not having it at all. It's a very simple, elegant lesson. Make something people want. First episode, how Southwest Airlines use cheap seats and free whiskey to fight its way into the airline business. The Most Texas Story Ever. There's a lot of mavericks in that sort.

story. We're going to have mavericks on the show. We're going to have plenty of robber barons. So many robber barons. And you know what? They're not all bad. And we'll talk about some of the classic great moments of famous business geniuses, along with some of the darker moments that often get overlooked. Like Thomas Edison and the electric chair. Listen to business history on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm I'm Yvalongoria. And on our podcast, Hungry for History, we mix two. of our favorite things, food and history. Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells, and they called these Ostercon to vote politicians into exile.

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My Cultura Podcast Network available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Lama is a spirit. It's not just a city. I didn't really have an interest of being on air. I kind of was up there to just try and infiltrate the building.

It's where Crunk was born in a club in the West End. Four world star. It was 559. Where a tiny bar birthed a generation of rap stars, where preachers go viral, and students at the HBCU turned heartbreak in the resurrection. How do you get people to believe in something that's dead? Where Dreamers brought Hollywood to the south

And hustlers bring their visions to create black wealth Nobody's rushing into relationships with you Where are you from? They want to look in the eye Where the future is nostalgia Talk to the chat, GPZ She's like, you really did first lady To have a gayfrey girls tape in Atlanta, Georgia Like that's what separates you from a lot of people

And I'm like, oh what, you're right Atlanta doesn't wait for permission It builds its own spotlight Um Big Rue Let us guide you through the stories behind Atlanta's most iconic moments Listen to Atlanta is on the IHard Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. I, Roz, where would you like to start?

There's no end to where we could start here. Oh, my God. I think it's just brilliant. I don't know. I don't know. Lead me in a direction. What do you want me to analyze? Well, let's, I guess, I mean, Dawn is the obvious place.

But, like, if someone doesn't like this movie, because it is, like, upsetting to them in some way, there's, like, truly every single possible content warning. Like, you had to do the top of the episode, Caitlin, exists for this movie. So, you know, there are so many ways in which it's not going to be for everybody. But I feel like I like it, even though there's, like, individual lines or plot lines. I don't love like I just feel like Don and Divine are so perfect to me because it's just I like the kind of character that is like she's behaving so absurdly badly that you're like you know this is not there's no world where people see this and they're like this is my role model like you know it's it feels like someone acting out in the most horrible way possible in a way that is like cathartic right where like every she's just like a walking intrusive thought and like every intrusive thought anyone's had in history dawn does with like pride and no scruples and I watched this um past guest

of the show Matt Baum did a really good video about the like John Waters Trash trilogy which includes pink flamingos and oh my gosh what is the third one uh the movie that came after this multiple maniacs maybe or polyester? Desperate living. Oh, Desperate Living. Okay. I guess that that is the Trash trilogy. So this is the second one. And he sort of analyzes all of Divine's characters. And also couches it by being like there's a lot of ableism. Like it's, you know, it is not, it is not a politically correct movie in any way, shape, or form. But like the core of a divine character is that she like lives for pleasure, is quick to anger and is never, dishonest about it like she always says like yeah I did it and I don't care and that the villains of

these movies tend to be people who do horrible things and then lie about it so like that was something that I thought really like pulled the movie into focus in an interesting way that like while I have like individual scruples or whatever you're like oh yeah like Donald and Donna they suck for so many reasons right like they're like these rich people exploiting others for no reason but like don is just like in for all she can get and is not shy about saying that but donald and donna the second it doesn't become convenient for them to exploit people anymore they're the victims and they're crying in court and all this shit like i don't know i just i i really liked looking at it from that like just don is like the ultimate in like unapologetic in like

ways that are really beautiful and ways that are quite evil and I don't know there's just like not a lot like it yeah I think when you hit play on one of these movies you very quickly learn what the rules are in this universe or what right and wrong is to these people like it's it's different than normal everyday life and you're also going in with it with the understanding, okay, that is a man that's playing a teenage girl right now. Like, we know that. And it's, it's absurd. It's all absurd. And then, like, her 12-year-old daughter is really played by a grown woman. And, like, we kind of get that going into it. So I think that's where they get away with a lot of things that are not PC, because you're kind of like,

okay these are these characters yes if this was a child it would be more realistic and we would look at it in a different lens i think is is the goal maybe right because like i mean i was kind of coming into this episode being like i don't really know how to talk about this movie or probably any early john waters movies at least through the lens of this podcast exactly because they're so campy and so intentionally trashy, which I do think separates a movie like this from other movies that we've covered on the show that have similar problematic elements of, you know, fat phobia and ableism and playing abuse for a laugh, that kind of thing. But other movies that do that tend to be more like, well, this is

just a movie that's coming out in the 90s and it's a reflection of what society thought was funny or thought was tolerable or whatever versus John Waters when he's doing it it's almost like he's kind of making a mockery of those things. I mean, I don't think a lot of the things in this movie are above criticism, but his movies are transgressive in a way that some times at least thoughtfully comments on the status quo of, you know, heteronormative patriarchal white supremacist society, although I will say that this movie is aggressively white, but there's so much being subverted and like mocked. Yeah. But also it's including triggering and problematic things. So it's complicated. Right. I think it's definitely commenting on main

mainstream society as anything drag typically is where you have to give in mind these are all gay men. There's one trans woman and cis women that are all a part of this. And I think the cis women queer on the queer spectrum in some way. But these are not people with children. These are not people that are participating in mainstream culture of 1973 when they were filming it. These are people that are just like, that world is not something that we are a part of. And so here's our take on it. Exactly. Yeah, his John Waters is the group of actors.

He consistently worked with the Dreamlanders, right? Yeah, totally. I think it's best summarized in kind of a monologue that Aunt Ida gives when she's talking to Gator. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she wants him to be queer. And he insists that he's straight and he's only attracted to women. And Aunt Ida is like, oh, I worry that you're going to end up working in an office and you'll have children and you'll celebrate wedding anniversaries. The world of heterosexuals is a sick and boring life.

that's kind of the thesis of John Waters work overall it just feels like like for the most part and like again not completely there were a few I think especially like the ablest jokes in this like really just like did not I don't really see an excuse for it other than like I mean like John Waters has admitted like kind of just being an edge lord

right but but I think more often than not this movie and like this sort of trilogy appears to be like not punching down very frequently it's like usually punching up or sometimes across question mark or like poking fun at their own community in a way that is like I don't know I think like part of the reason that it holds up is because because of that and like that makes the moments where it does feel like they're punching down to feel not great but in the context of like also I mean not that this is an excuse, but like they're so young relatively when they're making these movies. They're in their like 20s. And who among us was not edge lordy in a way that they

are embarrassed about and regret at different points in their 20s? I certainly was. Yeah. So there are definitely things to talk about. But I think like by and large, especially when it comes to the portrayal of fatness and queerness, like it all is so tongue and cheek. And And also, like, I don't know. I feel like you can, you can feel that it comes from a place of, like, subversiveness, but also just, like, this movie is, like, stars divine who, like, embodies herself in every single frame and every single choice she makes. Are there fat-phobic lines? Yes, but, like, they're delivered from divine to divine.

And it's so funny. Like, you're, that distance, like, that weird sex scene is between, divine and divine. The child abuse, while like I understand what that's going to be like a stopping point for some viewers, I think that like John Waters intentionally casting a visibly 27 year old woman to play a child helps you create that distance and it feels more like, yeah, like elevated and drag world. Yeah. Well, also divine on the topic of her size, she's never not owning it and feeling so proud of her body. I mean, the scene where she's stripping and she's fully like in a G string and just dance it around and you can't tell her anything. Like she is she is owning

her body size and I'm very proud about it. And I think I think that's especially at a time like the 70s where you know, being fat was so bad, you know, like in in media. She's just like, I don't give a fuck. Like, I feel great. And I love that about Divide. Totally. Yeah. Also, in that scene, the audience that she's dancing for is loving it.

Yeah. Yeah. The men are whooping and cheering. And it would have been easy to, well, because you do see in the scenes where she's in high school, like at the beginning of the movie, her classmates are bullying her for being fat. And teacher. And teacher. And teacher. But it's like, that's.

But everyone who bullies divine for being fat are characters that we're supposed to hate. For sure. So I'm kind of, I mean, I don't know. That's my perspective on it anyways is like, you know, and especially when it's fat-phobic bullying from the other divine character, Earl, to Dawn, you're just like, yeah, we hate this guy. We hate this guy so much. And even though Dawn is despicable, we don't hate, well, I don't know. I don't know how we're supposed to feel about Don, but like, she's iconic. Yeah, no doubt about it.

She's an anti-hero. She's a Don Draper type. Yeah. A despicable me, if you will. She's a little despicable me. She's a minion. Yeah. Yeah, I think the one thing that there's really no excuse for, and we already touched on this, but is the abelism.

Yeah. And the child abuse. Because for listeners who aren't familiar with this movie, Don keeps talking to her daughter Taffey in a very ablest disparaging way, calling her the R word, saying that she was diagnosed by medical professionals as, you know, having some sort of intellectual disability. When it's clear that she's never brought this, she's, this girl is like, never been to the doctor. Never been to a doctor and has been abused her whole life, which is like the movie does not shy away from, you know, it's obvious at that. the case. Even in context, that just felt more like edgy for the sake of being edgy versus like other choices that the script makes that have like a point of view or like a tongue in cheek

that just didn't feel as much. I think that again, the portrayal of like child abuse, it's, the movie isn't portraying it as like right or anything like that or justified. But I feel I'm guessing and like, let me know what you both. think that like that was sort of an attempt on the on the movies part to you know like one of the very you know stereotypical parts of like heterosociety at this time and still is like raising children and raising them right and blah blah and like the whole point of dawn is she does everything contrary to what typical society does and so she is a terrible neglectful parent what are we supposed to make of that? I don't really know. But like I'm guessing that was sort of the energy behind

it. It's like she is the anti, you know, Mrs. Cleaver or whatever. Yeah, I think so. I think it would be shocking if she was this amazing mother, but still robbing men. Kind of funny. Because like there are various, I guess, representations of incest or suggested incest. also that I didn't know quite what to make of because part of it is sort of like there's a scene I don't even want to describe it really but there's a scene where Don suggests that her daughter commit an act of incest with Gator and even though Taffee and Gator aren't biologically related like Gator is in Tathy's life theoretically as a stepfather we don't really see any we it's safe to assume he doesn't he's not good at it he's not really doing much right it's a it's a bad vibe that gives i think a very funny line if you're not thinking about it in the in the context of the scene which is i wouldn't suck your lousy dick if i was suffocating and there was oxygen in your balls that is that's a good line a good line and i mean

does it does it help the case at all that the little girl says things like that and is like you you're not doing it you know i think that maybe i think it does help i think it helps yeah yeah yeah it's like she's saying stuff that like um probably for i don't know i wish i could string a sentence like that together when i was 14 but yeah and then when her father tries it she kills them i mean There's something there, right? That's something. There's some. Yeah, she stabs him with a knife covered in mayonnaise, question mark.

Don't think about it too hard. Taffy, you know, I think maybe the tragic, because Dawn is not a tragic hero. She goes out on top, according to her. So she's not heroic and she doesn't find her death tragic. So I guess she's doing something else. I feel like Taffy is kind of the tragic. hero of the movie because she does her damnedest to get out of that situation she finds inner peace and then dies immediately RIP right yeah she she joins the Hari

Krishna's and is murdered by her own mother about it she's trying to like kill and punish her oppressive upbringing and eventually you know unfortunately you can't get one over on Don Davenport that's just kind of the rules of this world so she was always doomed Certainly not when she's high on liquid eyeliner. Yeah. So it was like, when we're saying sentences like this, it is very hard to, I don't know, this is, this is a movie designed to break our show. But I'm going to keep trying. Yeah, I agree that like, I think for me it was like primarily the ablest stuff that it just felt like it was doing something to just because you're not supposed to say this and not because the movie really has any sort of perspective.

or like alternate representation to it. So it's like, it's not really saying very much. Yeah, I definitely think that there was a shock element that they were going for. I mean, this is after Pink Flamingos, right? Yeah, two years after. And that was such a huge smash hit in the Midnight movie Underground and became something that everyone talked about. So this is following that.

And that movie, of course, like the thing that everyone really took away from that was she ate poop that came out of a dog's butt. We see it on camera come out of the butt and into her mouth. And it's like how. How do you heighten from there? Yeah. And people are coming expecting shock. And this movie doesn't really have a lot of those moments that are like that intense with. there's not a singing anus there's not you know there's not any of that stuff but then you know

knowing your audience of people that are coming to see your follow-up movie there's going to be some moments that are just for the sake of taking it taking it someplace one of the things i liked about this movie is it's um i do think it's like saying some like fun interesting stuff about class because there is a read of it where it's like these characters are with the exception of the what are their names the rich couple don and Donald and Donna the dashers mostly everyone in this movie is like working class or poor and you know like there's a read of it where you're like okay leaning hard into stereotypes around poor people that we were talking about in a recent what was that episode recently we were talking about sort of

of like just stereotypes around for people that are just sort of presented of whatever that they're bad parents that they're criminals blah blah blah oh um overboard overboard yeah a movie that genuinely sucks which i don't think this movie does even remotely this movie rocks uh so i like the inclusion of the dashers because you see that these like these rich characters are also completely depraved in a way that is different where like there is this like it's not harped upon because nothing is really harped upon in this movie but like that these rich characters are sort of out to like exploit

the poor people who come to their business and present them as art and like that is something that still happens and certainly happen then and you know there is an element to like they are encouraging Don to do all this horrible stuff or just encouraging you know bad behavior

they're witnessing child abuse and taking pictures of it and being like, you're a diva, you're incredible. Like, it's so over the top. And they're encouraging it almost as like a social experiment. Like they're detached from it. They're like, this is my little art project when it's like other people's lives. And that is like I thought like a really cool way of framing how a lot of like wealthy benefactors view art and view outsider art.

And I'm like wondering if John Waters had experiences like that were like rich, weird. are like, hey, John, we really like what you're doing. Keep doing all that gross shit. I totally get it. Like, that kind of vibe. And then at the end that the dashers, I know we talked about it earlier, but like, the dashers turn on dawn once they're like, oh, no, we're going to get in trouble for this.

Actually, we're the victims of this thing that we've funded and encouraged a thousand percent. Like, I just, I liked that element of the movie. I thought it was really good. Yeah. And I feel like you come away going. oh yeah they're there are the slimy ones like they're the whole time it's like don't's doing horrible shit but you know in her defense she didn't start out poor I think that she that's true she is not a criminal because she's poor I think she's poor because she's a criminal and I think

she's a criminal because she didn't get those chacha heels exactly that's true that's true They do go. She is like a firmly middle class girl who chooses a life of crime. And in a way, that is on her parents. I blame the parents. Ultimately. She was, she was a teenager. She was a child. She needed guidance. It was a child. Yeah. I also think it's really funny that the dashers put their potential clients through an audition process. And there's a group of women like waiting for their audition. And one of them is dismissed, I think, based on her appearance alone. And then another one is like, I'm a stripper. And this is, I heard this is where all the strippers go. And they're like, yeah, that's fine. You're in. And then another woman is like, I work at the post office or something.

Get the fuck out. Get the fuck out of here. Loser. hilarious. And then Dawn, who I think is the only one who ends up making it through, she's like, I'm a thief and a shit kicker. And they're like, that's exactly what we're looking for. Uh-huh.

She's great. Hilarious. My other favorite thing that happens at the hair salon is when one of the women thinks her haircuts too expensive and they take the hairdo back. They just ruin everything. They just did. It's so funny. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm like, I'm trying. Surely I have more to say about this. Well, I mean, to your original point, Jamie, again, John Waters set out to make the trashiest movies that have ever existed. He wanted to make these very subversive, transgressive, campy, trash films. And when you're doing that in the 1970s, you're bound to, you know, make some mistakes. Things that seem subversive at the time are actually just like punching down or being edge lordy or stuff that we can very easily look at in 2025 and be like, yeah, shouldn't have done that. Yeah.

But it's 50 years ago. Right. And even less. Like as you said, like there are jokes that I used to tell as a comic in my 20s where I was like, I should have never said that. And it's because at the time I was like, oh, this is subversive. This is fine. I'm, you know, I'm being edgy. And that's not what that was.

That was just whatever shitty joke I was making. But, yeah. So there's there's a. element of leeway that we can extend to people. Obviously, context is important and the severity of what they do is important to consider. But so much of, you know, John Waters work, again, when he is commenting on the status quo and making fun of it and being like straight people are so fucking boring. The line where on Ida, this happens a little bit later in the movie where she's now trying to set Gator up with a man because she's so hellbent on Gator being gay. And this random man

is like, well, how do you know that Gator likes men? And Ida says, I just use common sense. If they're smart, they're queer. If they're stupid, they're straight. I'm laughing. Or she's like, if you ever decide to like leave the Harry Krishna and come be a lesbian, you can live with me. You're sick. She is a one issue voter on Ida and everyone needs to be gay and I don't even know I mean is Aunt Ida do we know her sexuality or she just really just wants to be around gay people unclear she really seems like she her yeah her sexuality is being around gay people we actually don't know she could be a self-hating straight we don't know yeah which relatable for me but yeah the point is like this movie and And other of John Waters' works are doing a lot, as we've talked about, to examine the boring, the ridiculous, the very rigid gender roles and heteronormativity of mainstream American society.

And he's just like, ooh, let me do the exact opposite of that. And sometimes it ends up being this hilarious, subversive, awesome thing. sometimes it is punching down but overall it's why we're able to like still love john waters and his body of work despite some of the stuff that doesn't age very well yeah but yeah i don't think i have much else to say which feels wild yeah um yeah like this movie it's like you like it or you don't i i i will be returning to this movie i'm like this is the kind of movie i've like i don't know why, but I'm like, I can't wait to be sick and watch this movie and eat soup.

Well, you need to eat spaghetti and then throw it at the wall. Yeah. Poor Taffy. I'll have two chicken breast, please. Well, we're not having chicken breast. We're having spaghetti. And then I'll have a small portion to be polite. And then Don is like, Taffy, there's not enough for you. I didn't make enough for you.

Meanwhile, she brings out this huge bowl of so much spaghetti that could have easily fed like eight people. Yeah. I'm very curious what our listeners think of this movie. I really like it. There are elements of it that don't age well, but I feel like its heart is so, like, it's just like you can tell where this movie's coming from. It's 50 years old, so there are issues with it. And also just like the divine, Divine's performance in this movie is like wild. It is just like how much, we were saying this to the beginning, but like every line in this movie is scream. like it's just it's awesome it's a lot also there aren't a lot of cuts yeah so there'll be like a pretty wide shot that'll last for a few minutes and the actors are just exchanging dialogue back and forth for minutes at a time so the memorization you have to do yeah when you're shooting like that is nuts and they're just like I don't know how much improv or if any was involved on any of these sets but if it is all like very meticulously written and then performed as written.

It is. Then like those exchanges of dialogue and monologues that had to be memorized and without like cutaways. Yeah. Very impressive. No, he, I, in the Q&A I watched, he said it was all like, he was like, I am anti-improv, which I celebrate. I love that for him.

He was like, I'm anti-improve. And so like people have like criticized the skill level of actors I've worked with over the years but like they're memorizing 20 pages of dialogue so uh your move yeah so it's great these like i love characters that are like i live for pleasure and anything that is not pleasure i reject and and uh will react with violence it's cathartic it makes me want to like stomp around totally like it is there's something very refreshing about seeing a female character do whatever the fuck she wants yeah and you know it's not awesome when that includes child abuse and chaining your daughter to a bed and no but it's like this movie isn't pro child abuse you know it's just it takes

place on a different planet as far as i can see right yeah this is a movie where if your parents don't get you chacha heels the floodgates are open and now you're allowed to just kill people you're allowed to generate generational trauma off of a perceived slight yeah yeah I love to see women behaving badly yeah in movies so it's great and honestly like for me when I watch Divine

like I kind of do forget that that is a male drag queen character I'm kind of just like this is just she's a shit kicker lady like she's a bad girl yeah divine is just like it so good that i because i also i had to like refresh myself on like divine as a drag performer and like i i really want to watch that documentary and the most unlikely movie star of yeah that time like let's think about if you think about

like just the 70s again her size the fact that she's this feminine man that dresses and drag. Like, that's not someone that was leading movies in that time. So it's this whole universe that they created for themselves where they're already going into this, breaking all the rules. Right. And it's a universe where every time Dawn says, I'm the most beautiful woman in the world, everyone around her agrees.

Yeah. And that's just the reality of this society. It rocks. of this alternate Baltimore. And this is, we've like, this is like maybe the most boring thing to point out and everybody knows it. But for what,

it's worth 15 years after this movie, a Disney, like an iconic Disney villain is like, she becomes such a cultural touchstone and such a cultural force that she's like, cartoon character by the late 80s. It's like, it's incredible.

Like the amount that, I don't know, like I love, I love when a group of friends makes of, like they made a group of friends from Baltimore made a movie and guess what it changed the world so think about that it's cool yeah yeah this movie has its issues but I feel like it's just so there's nothing really like it totally and it's kind of incredible that it's remotely good like given given the resources and like how they have to make these movies a budget of $25,000

yeah which I did I put into a little thing so that would be about 150,000 dollars today still super low budget still very very low yeah it's and that yeah it's like through the goodwill of their own community were they able to like pull this off time and time again it's it's just it's awesome it's beautiful ross do you have anything else you want to talk about no i love it it's great uh it passes the backful past a whole lot usually about something horrible but like that's fine that it counts women are talking about crime money, fame, beauty, liquid eyeliner, jump ropes, spaghetti, chicken breasts, all manner of things. The list goes on. Yeah, so no issues there. And then what about the ultimate metric, the

Bechtel-cast nipple scale? Yeah, so the scale where we rate the movie from 0 to 5 nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I might defer rating on this episode. I feel like this, yeah. I feel like the nipple scale doesn't apply to a movie like female trouble. So I kind of don't even want to rate it. I give it five, um, five plates of spaghetti for me. Yes.

I'll give it five human sized cages. Incredible. Where the hell did they get that? So good. Oh, yeah. That would be a great Halloween. costume very cumbersome but really good yeah wow ros what do you think yeah i'd give it five trampolines i love i the the anecdote that like job motors and divine went to the ymca together to

for her to train i'm just like it's so good it's so good because she had to do all those flips with her wig like staying on yeah true and that's no easy task true show girl all right well that is our female episode. Thank you to everyone who's been requesting this movie for nine years. We did it. We did it. Here it is. And thank you so much, Raz, for coming on this show. This was so fun. Oh, my God. I'm so happy that you invited me. And I'm happy to talk about John Waters. I think it's, I think, again, it's like not, certainly not what they were planning on when they were doing this stuff. But at this point, it's like, it serves, as a historical record, I think, of queer culture and not even just queer culture, like very subversive, transgressive, a different, a world of outsiders and showing what a world of outsiders was like and what they were doing at that time. And this is only a few years after Stonewall,

which was also, those were outsider queer people. Those were gender non-conforming trans people and they were angry and fighting back. And I think that in a sense, that's where the culture was at. This is very early gay rights movement. And it's fun to see them letting their hair down and making each other laugh. And I think everyone should check it out.

Totally. It's on the internet archive for free. If you haven't watched it already, it's very easy to access. Indeed. Yeah. Thank you again for joining us for this discussion. And tell us, Roz, where people can follow you online, check out your work, listen to your podcasts, etc.

Plug away. Thank you. Well, Ross Hernandez on Instagram is where you can find everything. I'm so excited about this new podcast that I'm doing, which is a horror movie, trivia, game show type thing. It's fun. It is a podcast, but it's a game show. So we're, I'm the host of it and it's produced by Paramount. And it's all about horror movies. I really hope that you can listen to it and not necessarily be a horror movie fan. I think that we make it still fun and funny because there's all different kinds of improvised challenges that we put our guests through. And it's just a good time. So that's called Tickle to Death. Go listen to that. And then ghosted my podcast where I talk to people about their experiences with ghosts and aliens and big foots and psychics and stuff.

that's my other podcast and i um have a youtube channel where i go ghost hunting with guys i meet on grinder and we go ghost hunting in haunted hotel rooms oh my gosh that's awesome and it's comedic and it's fabulous oh i love it ross her dad is the haunted doll that's called oh yeah thank you so much for for joining us i'm like i'm i'm so excited for the new podcast congratulations Thank you. Yeah, of course. And you can find us in all the regular places. We're on Instagram.

You can join our Patreon, aka Matrion. We're every month for $5 a month. You get two bonus episodes and access to our back catalog of over 100 episodes. I think almost 200 at this point. So get on there. Get into it. And we will see you next week. Yay.

Bye. Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me.

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