The Bechdel Cast - Fifty Shades of Grey with Sara Schaefer

Episode Date: February 14, 2018

Caitlin has fifty college degrees and Jamie has fifty Alfred Molina posters, and on this episode they invite special guest Sara Schaefer to discuss Fifty Shades of Grey! (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @saraschaefer1 on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast or wherever you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. friends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the bechdel cast hey caitlin hey jamie can you meet me in the playroom in 15 minutes yes i would love to meet you in your kneel at the door don't make eye contact with me i'm in charge it's an expensive looking room there's a lot of gizmos and gadgets aplenty.

Are you serious? Welcome to the... I think that was a good opening. That was a good opening. We've got a lot to sort through today. And I would say that I'm for sure underqualified. To talk about today's movie? To talk about today's movie. I also feel that way. We've been talking about doing this movie for a couple months.

It's been a popular fan request. I've been dreading this episode. I've been looking forward to it, but also knowing that every other word I'll have to be like, but I don't know. I don't know. I mounted a drummer the most I'll do in sex is

all of the work to make it end sooner okay this is the Bechdel cast this is our my name's Jamie Loftus my name's Caitlin Durante

this is our podcast about how women are portrayed in movies it sure is yeah I wasn't gonna get a Mike's Hard cause it's like kind of early but then I thought about how much we have to get through and I was like I'm gonna get a Mike's Hard because it's like kind of early, but then I thought about how much we have to get through.

And I was like, I'm going to get a Mike's Hard. I actually need to do it. That hiss. Mike's Hard, the ball's still in our court. The ball is in our court. They literally, they owe us. The ball is in our red room and we have to do something about it. Put it in your mouth.

Every time someone Vandamos me, it's in, like you do it every single time. It's the number of Mike's Hards it is, which is just, you know, $2 increments. If I owe you $20, I Venmo you for 10 Mike's Hard lemonades. Right, right, right. That'll get you through the week. Okay. So, yeah, we use the Bechdel test as a just sort of jumping off point for a larger conversation. The Bechdel test for us is two female characters in the movie who have names, have to speak to each other in the story, and their conversation has to be about anything besides a man. Right.

So we'll see how this movie fares. But first, let's introduce our guest. Yeah. Oh, my God. She's a hilarious comedian. She's the host of a new podcast called Loner at Coyolfe Creek. Yes. Sarah Schaefer.

Hi. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being here. I'm so passionate about this topic. Welcome to our playroom. Thank you. Tell us why you chose this movie. Well, the new Fifty Shades is out now, so it's timely.

The closing chapter, right? It's the last one? Well, I think E.L. James continued to write other things. Like, oh, it's now from Christian's point of view. There's all these spinoffs. Interesting. But I don't know if they're going to make movies of those. But anyway, so it's a franchise, and the third one is out.

I had never seen the second or third one. I have now, in the past 24 hours, seen everything. Congratulations. I've been real turned on for a good 12 hours. Fully activated. Just totally titillated. I just came straight from the movie theater and I have a lot to say.

Okay. Wow. But yeah, I wanted to do this movie because I think it's interesting. I just think there are so many things to say. Okay. Wow. But yeah, I wanted to do this movie because I think it's interesting. I just think there are so many things to talk about in this movie. There's a lot to unpack. A lot. And sorry, were you into the books at all as they were coming out?

Okay. I was not. I read like one paragraph and was like, this is truly the worst writing. I mean, really bad writing. Clunky. Clunky. I mean, the woman, I don't know how old she was maybe in her 40s 30s or 40s when she wrote it i think so um it was the first time she'd ever

written anything and it was like on a whim you know twilight fan fiction and so our standards probably should be a little low for her but the fact that it got so popular a little backstory on me there was a short time a couple years in New York. I was actually working. This is really a little insight onto how for any young comedians out there, people pursuing an entertainment career, how fucked up it is. I was the head blogger for Late Night with Jimmy Fallon. Biggest break of my career. But I wasn't making enough money to make ends meet. So I had all these side jobs,

which was crazy because I was working like 14 hours a day. Yeah. And one of my side jobs was to go to my friend, Rachel Kramer Bussell. She's a big writer in the erotic fiction world. Okay. And erotic nonfiction,

erotic writing in general. And she hosted a monthly erotic reading series in New York. And she hired me to come and film it and then put the videos up online. And then I also made book trailers for her anthologies. One was about spanking. And so I literally made a little short film of people getting spanked with clothes on. Because she wanted it to be PG so that more people could see it.

But it was one of the weirdest things I've ever – all these weird side jobs. So anyway, I heard during that time – I wouldn't say I read a lot of erotic – because I'm not a big book reader. I love reading. I go through phases of reading books. But I was an English major. You know, whatever. I can read, guys. Speaking of what we majored in, I do have a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University.

Oh, Christ almighty. Okay, great, great, great. Qualified. qualified go on so you are qualified to talk about this um i got into a screaming match with a debt collector so i too went to college yes you did so anyway i heard during this time i heard a lot of erotic writing. So then when Fifty Shades became popular, I was shocked at how vanilla it was and how the stuff I heard was way more advanced and complex. Well, we'll go into... So I watched the movie a couple times, as I always do, to prep for every episode,

and then I did some extra work where I talked to a lot of people who have been in BDSM relationships before just to gain a better understanding of something. Caitlin did a deep dive. I did a deep dive. So I have a lot to say in regards to that, specifically how those people experience those relationships

and then also how they perceive this movie to be and how well or poorly they feel it represents being in a dom sub relationship but we'll get into that but yeah we've all we've all got interesting angles on this right my little angle i'm bringing to the table i entered this oh god entered does not work in this particular episode uh i learned of 50 shades of gray i think well i mean because this was like such a huge cultural moment where i remember my friends and I, when I was in college, we would look to see how many people we could see reading it on the train. Because that was like a thing that people were doing. And it's like, oh, it's so funny that people are reading this like kinky book in public.

And what an interesting horny move to be like a you know a horny alpha move uh but then i actually interacted with it for the first time when my mom was like jamie you're not gonna believe this thing i found she did the same thing with the twilight series which makes sense because so much of the top half of this movie you can just be like oh yeah it's pretty much Twilight, but with no vampires and Kinky. Yeah. Aged up five years, but whatever. So my mom was really like, she had the box set. This was prior to the movies. Very into it. She was like trying to get me to read the first book.

And so all my early experience with this franchise was all moms. And that's a lot of like what the audience for this is, is moms. And I know a lot when the movie started coming out, friends of mine would go with their moms. And it was like this weird kinky bonding thing. But I do think it's a thing. And there's five million pieces written about Fifty Shades of Grey. Every single take has been taken at this point. Well, we're going to come in with a new one.

The new ones ever. What if someone heard me say that and they're like, actually, I'm just going to shut it off. But it is interesting to me where this is obviously a franchise with a primary female audience. And with Twilight, too, it's like people are so shamed for going to see these movies and enjoying them,

even if it is like, you know, it's like campy and it's a little silly. And to your point, it's not an accurate representation of the BDSM community. But I mean, I know I for sure participated in being like, this is so stupid. This is so silly and dumb.

And now I'm just like, oh, who cares? You know, it's people enjoy it. If this is how moms learn about kink, I'll let them. Yeah. Let the moms flip the beans. I've kind of come to that after watching it today. I was like, eh, it's fine. I mean, there's issues.

There's for sure issues. The theater I was in today, it was early it was like noon there weren't many people in the audience at that showing but everyone was kind of like chuckling and laughing

and there to kind of sort of go with it I mean ultimately it's a fantasy you know and there's there's stuff that appeals

to me in it like how can you not get caught up in the fantasy of like an extremely attractive rich man like whisking you away obsessed with up in the fantasy of like an extremely attractive rich man like whisking you away obsessed with you yeah yeah i mean that is like you know and obviously

not everybody is into that but like there is something beautiful about it where it's just eye candy or like oh my god sure yeah i understand the appeal yeah yeah so i just wanted to say that at the top because there is so much to unpack but i don't, I feel badly when it's like, I don't want people to feel bad for enjoying a movie like this, especially if it's their first exposure to something like this. Because it is, in a lot of ways, it is fun. There's a former guest of the cast, Lindsay Ellis, recently made a really interesting video essay I would direct everyone to. We'll put it in the notes of this episode. We always say that, but we've never had, literally never had notes. Check out the notes. Maybe someday we'll...

Anyways, but she made this great video essay about the Twilight franchise and about all the vitriol and basically how society has a way of really unloading on anything that teenage girls really like. And equally stupid things that teenage boys like,

like Transformers and shit like that, don't get the same kind of vitriol. And I would argue that Fifty Shades of Grey, for a slightly older audience, kind of falls under the same umbrella. So if you enjoy these movies and you went to see them, I don't want you to feel bad about yourself. That said, and now the rest of the podcast.

First, I want to say that I saw the movie Fifty Shades of Grey, the first one, in the theater in 2015. It was the first movie I saw in the theater when I moved to Los Angeles. Oh, I think it was at Ever. What if the first movie I ever saw in a movie theater was Fifty Shades of Grey in 2015. No, I moved to L.A. and then that was the first movie I saw after moving here. Interesting. That I saw in the theater.

I went with a few gal pals. I did not really know what the movie was or hadn't read any of the books. I still haven't. I have now seen the first two movies. At this point, I have not seen the third one, but I do have plans to go see it on Valentine's Day. Brag. Wow. Hot.

I know. But yeah, I, well, I'll get into that later. I can't, I would be remiss not to bring up the bingo board. One of our fans made a bingo board

and now every time we talk about something we've talked about previously, I'm thinking about the bingo board and I came into this episode thinking about the bingo board. Yeah. Where anytime we mention one of our motifs if you will our mode i'm sorry i'm sorry did you do you have a master's degree in screenwriting or something i don't like to bring it up so i mean i might just have some bingo board moments okay Okay. Okay, so the recap of Fifty Shades of Grey. We meet Anastasia Steele.

She is about to graduate from college. Played by Dakota Johnson, who is Melanie Griffith's daughter slash Tippi Hedren's granddaughter. She's a legacy. She fills in for her roommate,

who is a journalism student, to do this interview. They're interviewing someone named Christian Gray for the school newspaper. So she goes and interviews him. He is a 27-year-old billionaire. He's built this huge business empire.

Okay, there's so much vagueness in this movie, and I really love where they choose. What does he do? What is his job? It seems like he does telecommunications. I thought it was green energy. I did. We literally don't know.

Well, because there was a mention. There was a hedge fund mentioned at one point by his mother. Right. Starving children in Africa. That gets mentioned as well. Agriculture projects in Africa. He's like a Richard Branson type. He's got his hands in everything.

Space. Farming. Sometimes he just has to go. Well, in the second movie, he buys a publishing company. he can have it all. Okay,

so the scene where he and Anna meet and she's interviewing him and he's kind of, like, I mean, immediately he's pretty condescending of just like,

what is this question? What is this question? And at first I was like, oh, he's being mean to her. But then I listened to her questions. I'm like, oh,

she's awful. She's doing a really bad job she was just like what but she's an english lit major she's not a she's basically the girl who wrote the babe.net article about she's like she's like she's like 21 years old like doing a really high profile right i'm just like she's like do you have a hobby and he's like like, what? I'm like, no, I think I'm on his side. You're taking up his time. Do you have a hobby? I wrote down some of her questions. Well, they're not even her questions. They're her roommate's questions.

Anyway, the whole. Her roommate could not look less 21 if she tried. Anyways. So she, you know, they have this sort of awkward encounter where she doesn't do a very good job interviewing him. But he's mysterious. He's brooding. He's hot. There's just an immediate spark.

Well, in the script there was written that they had an immediate spark. Do y'all think that Jamie Dornan is hot? I can't. I can't. I'm not sure. For me, it's his eyes. They're dead. They're dead.

Which makes him very, very good in the show The Fall. Because he plays a serial killer. Because he plays a serial killer. And I'm actually, and this is super fucked up to say, but I'm kind of attracted to him in The Fall. And he's literally a serial killer and a rapist. Guys, there's a lot going back there. That's a separate podcast that I do with my therapist.

Should I watch The Fall? The Fall is excellent. It's so good. And Gillian Anderson is so good in it. Oh, nice. Anyway, I wish I hadn't said that. People who have seen The Fall will understand. You've seen it. I haven't. And there's also just like

the whole serial killer thing. We've all been there. For me, me it's durst i'm a durst gal myself well you're not richard to him are you robert robert sorry fred durst i'm like wait a minute i'm in the leads i want a raw dog biscuit i killed them all like that guy of course yeah you're attracted to him i don't know if i am attracted to him or if i want to swaddle him like a baby and carry him around. It's okay to be titillated by things that are taboo. Exactly. Otherwise, shows about murder and serial killers would not be on the air. Apparently, Jamie Dornan has cornered that market.

But for Christian Grey, yeah, there's just something. Every time there's moments where it's like he's registering with me as a person who's hot, but I'm not attracted to him. Anyways, everyone's going to feel different. Sure, exactly. Sure, I'm played by Alfred Molina. For your consideration, 50 Shades of Grey, where Alfred Molina plays Christian Grey. We all have our own Christian Grey.

Sure. Jamie Dornan, it is the eyes. He's dead in the eyes. Yeah. Not to bring down a fellow Jamie. Jamie and Jamie violence is really rampant in the Jamie community. Not good. I'm so sorry to hear that.

It's okay. So these two characters, Anastasia Steele and Christian Grey, are meant to be having a spark. So they have this kind of awkward interview and she's like oh what was that all about anastasia christian she's like all hot and yeah there's this moment at the elevator and then she walks outside and it's like pouring rain and then she like she like the horn whips her head back and she's like holy cow the horny rain is i really liked the horny rain so she's about to carry on with her life until christian gray shows up again at her work in the hardware store and he's like i need a bunch of rope and tape and all these cable ties cable

ties and she's like what's happening why are you here because at this point she's living in portland and he's in seattle so he like traveled all this way to stalker and yeah which is one of the many twilight parallels early in this movie that it's like okay we know where the first act is completely mapped right twilight so he's like let's go get coffee and then they're like chatting and she's like yeah i'm an english lit major i like romance and he's like oh never mind i'm not into romance, like, there's still something about her. Which is funny, because when he said that, I thought he was going to be like, oh, never mind. I'm not into college students.

But that is not a problem for him. Not a problem. Well, she was about to graduate. So she's probably 20. I said 21 earlier, but she's probably 22, 23 years old. She's probably 22. Yeah. So he's drawn to her.

She's drawn to him. But there's something, there's just a little something that seems to be keeping them apart. And we don't know what it is. Is he a vampire? Is it the distance between Portland and Seattle? Unclear. He's like, oh, it's a bad idea for you to hang out with me, but I can't stay away from you. Then one night she gets like really drunk and he like shows up at where she is.

She did not tell him where she was, but he somehow knows. Did she not tell him? No. Oh, yeah. This is my main. I'll save it. We'll get into it. I guess he uses his telecommunications empire to figure out where she is.

And then he shows up. And then they spend the night together because he kind of takes care of her. And every detail of that is dark where she wakes up the next morning and she's just like, did you undress me? And he's like, yeah, obviously. I had no choice. I had no choice. You were covered in vomit. Right.

He was shaming her. He was. For being barfy. And also she didn't ask him to do anything. And also she wasn't even like, if every time I threw up as a 22 year old at a bar, it's just it was all just such a weird overreaction. And then he was like, yeah, obviously I slept next to you. I mean, realistically, I think we should really apply the Steve Buscemi test here, where you replace the hot male lead with Steve Buscemi and see if it's serial killer behavior and that

absolutely is yeah oh every almost every single thing he does is yeah replace him with steve and it's call the cops so they start to sort of develop this romance but he's like i have to tell you something and then he shows her his room his playroom he calls it his dark expensive room it's revealed that he is into bdsm now she is still a virgin at this point she's never had sex she's never really had any sort of sexual encounters very important thing to remember that's another yeah that's another thing that really bugs me about whatever yes i mean we'll get into it. It really bothers me. He's like, if you're going to do this and you can leave at any time,

but if you consent to entering into this type of relationship, here are the sort of conditions. He sort of like, you're going to move in for the weekends. There's literally a contract. Yeah, he draws up this whole, he makes her sign a non-disclosure agreement first.

And then he i want to start she is just like drowning in red flags at this point like suffocated by that that's why she speaks so softly and then yeah so then he shows her the room and she's like whoa i don't know about this uh this is all new to me a whole new. And then let's see how many Disney songs I can sing in this episode. And then he's like, we will agree to everything that might happen ahead of time. There's going to be like, I need your written consent, da, da, da. So he draws up this contract. And then there's this actually what I think is a pretty fun scene

where they negotiate the terms of the contract. Oh, I liked that scene. Saying like what she's willing and not willing to do. In the meantime, she has sex with him for the first time in a non there's no bondage or there's no. So manipulative the way that he does. I mean, like the whole central relationship issue here that I feel like probably misrepresents BDSM relationships in general. It's like one is kinky. The other just wants a regular relationship.

Can they make it work and at every point in the movie it kind of seems like no they can't she really does just want a normal relationship and he really doesn't so part ways but we do see her consenting for the most part to the things that he does yeah so then the movie it sort of the big climactic moment is when she's like i don't really understand why this needs to be part of our relationship like why do you want to punish me this isn't really what i want because part of like sort of the terms of the contract is that like there are these rules um if she obeys them she will be rewarded if she disobeys them she she will be punished. Really unsexy climactic scene to this movie. Well, yeah, because then so she's still trying to gain an understanding of why he needs this or what about this is fulfilling to him.

And because she's not really feeling the same way. And then she says something like, I need to see how far this can go. Like, I need to see what the limits of this are. And then there's a scene where he strikes her with a flogging device i don't know the terms six times and she's crying and it's a full-on whip in that part okay and this greatly upsets her and she is basically just like don't fucking touch me this is over gotta go i'm out and that is pretty much the end of the movie wait you left i probably left some you left out the where the elevator doors start to close and he goes anastasia anna and she goes kristen another emotionless delivery of names end of

the movie yeah it was cut to black you really do have to see all three. Okay. To understand this story. Okay. Okay. This poorly constructed story. So I've seen one, Caitlin's seen two, Sarah's seen three. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Well, let's get into it. Okay. So for me, and I was telling Caitlin this on the way over, I mean, before we get into the sub, sub, sub categories. Wait, when you said sub, sub, sub, did you mean subcategory about subs oh my god no okay go on there but but another term that we'll have to okay for me if the franchise ends at the end of movie one i almost think it's like for all of its problems kind of an interesting story because what i was expecting going into this because i didn't really i know what happens up until the scene in the hardware store because

that's where the writing got too bad and i had to stop reading my mom's book and also i was like i'm reading my mom's crusty cum book like i don't want to anymore so i stopped reading it so after that i didn't know what happened and as protagonist, Anastasia does undergo a pretty significant arc, I thought, where she's whatever, 22, 23. She's a virgin at the beginning of the story and gets into this pretty sus relationship, I think. We're talking the fourth time she has sex, she's being whipped. Exactly. I can't imagine that. Third time? I mean, she's being whipped. I can't imagine that. Third time?

I mean, it's so unbelievable. It's a steep curve. And I don't want to spoil anything, and I don't think I am, because I think everyone knows the third one, they get married. Because at the end of the second one, they're... It's on the poster. Yeah. Yeah, Mrs. Gray.

Mrs. Gray. Okay, so I am not joking when I tell you that the entire trilogy is maybe eight weeks of time. No kidding. They even say, there's a point in the third movie where they go, well, that happened three weeks ago. And it was like something from the second movie. Oh my God. And I was like, oh my God, this character goes from college student virgin to... Mrs. Grey?

I don't want to give away... Dungeon master? More than Mrs. Grey. It's unbelievable. So from the point that they meet in the first movie and book to the end of the third? I don't know about the book, but in the movies, it's like eight weeks of time. It is so crazy. So like from her graduation till like the next

september yeah it's really weird and it's the pacific northwest so you can't tell seasons you know it's raining i kept projecting like horny fraser into all the seattle scenes but uh but in terms of like if the franchise ends at the end of the first movie for me she gets into this relationship it escalates very quickly she is in many ways sort of empowered by bdsm and learning how to say no and set boundaries where she's very meek at the beginning and uses that new knowledge to break off this harmful relationship end of movie if it ends right there i'm almost like that's kind of an interesting story not you know artfully told but an interesting story but everyone knows that it does not stop there so but if it in the you know devil's advocate if it ends at the first movie

and she just moves on with her life with like wow what a weird time anyways moving on i'm 22 you know like i thought kind of interesting well okay let me start by saying one of the reasons i'm dreading this episode is because i feel like i'm a virgin i only saw a movie in the theater for the first time three years ago and i have never had sex no the reason i'm dreading this is i i think i'm going to accidentally misspeak or just say some things that sound kind of kink shaming. And I don't want to do that. I'm coming at this topic of BDSM from an outsider. I don't have any experience in a relationship of that nature.

And I'm having issues digesting it as a relationship dynamic. Since I've spoken to some people, I've gained a better understanding of it, and I feel a little bit differently. But to me, at first, before I spoke to anyone about it, and especially pretty much my entry into this type of thing, aside from going to the Museum of Sex in New York City several times and reading some stuff there, I didn't know that much about BDSM. So to me, from an outsider's perspective, I was looking at a dom-sub relationship,

especially one that is a male dom and a female sub. And to me, that just looked like sort of a very heightened version of what society's expectations are of men and women and how men are expected to be the dominant, powerful ones. And women are expected to be submissive, obedient people. And I was having just a difficult time accepting that as a thing because I was like, well, how could that be empowering to anyone? And what, like, it just, I was, you know, just really struggling with that. And also, this is me. I'm coming from a place where my tastes in sex,

not to get too graphic, are extremely vanilla. I'm so boring. I like very boring sex. Don't sex shame yourself. Boring sex works. My kink is extremely boring sex. So there's not really anything about BDSM that appeals to me. And I think that's okay. Just as people who are into BDSM, that's okay too. But I was still just like, well, what about how like this is like submissive women and I want women to be empowered. Like a lot of what we talk about on this podcast is like women who have agency and women who make choices and are strong and empowered and all this stuff. And like that's what I really enjoy. And then to see a relationship dynamic where the woman is submissive and the

male is dominant. I was just like, ah, but I've spoken to some people who have experienced BDSM relationships and they have cleared some things up for me. If you would like to hear about it. Okay. So I spoke to four people total.

Three of them were women who were the sub in a hetero relationship where they had a male dom. One of them was a guy and I wasn't sure if he was a sub in this relationship, but he said that he was in a relationship with a dom. So I don't know if that dynamic played out where he was the sub, but he was able to, he answered some questions I had. So the first question I basically asked everyone was, what is it about BDSM that people who are into it find appealing or fulfilling? What do you get out of that type of relationship? I think that's a very complicated question that differs for every person and it's going to be different for everyone. But it seems as though some of the common trends that i discovered were it can help people cope with a past traumatic sexual event or assault

for subs it can be enjoyable because they like to feel as though they're taken care of um it also allows them an outlet where they don't have to be in control because they might have a lot of like power and responsibility and other aspects of their life so it's like i like to not have to be in control of this situation similarly um they just like to feel it's like it's freeing to just sort of surrender control and not to have to worry about what to do to like please someone sexually like it's like you just tell me what to do and i'll do it and like i don't have to want to have to worry about what to do next or if you're enjoying yourself or whatever so i'm sure this doesn't even begin to like this is like the tip of the iceberg right there's also like pain stuff you know that like pain is a release right and sexual pleasure pleasure yeah

yeah right so this is again i only spoke to four people so basically i'm like okay so it actually can be empowering to oh there's a lot of people would say the sub actually has more power yes and that's another thing i learned i think that's different but in movie three there's a moment where you wonder oh who really is in control here? Well, also, I learned that subs set all the limits. Well, we see that kind of in the negotiation scene. So I did some inadvertent research for this episode a couple weeks ago in this very building because comedians Eli Olsberg and Allison Stevenson hosted this show called SSFW where they invited a dom and a sub

who worked professionally in a dungeon, a Los Angeles area dungeon. Check it out. In the metropolitan area. In the LA metro dungeon. And there was like a panel of comedians and then we were just, I mean, it was basically just an open dialogue

with a dom and a sub who have that relationship personally but also work in that sector professionally and it was really enlightening and i super encourage people who have never learned anything about it because this was my first experience just like listening to someone in front of me talk about it openly for an hour which is kind of a cool thing to have happened. And based on that, you know, quote unquote, research, as it were, it seems like Fifty Shades tries to get it right and does not quite get it right. I think there's elements of it. And again, this is I mean, same same as you think I've never been in a BDSM relationship. I pretty much exclusively fuck magicians and drummers, as I've said before.

I have no intention of changing or improving myself. So and they're notoriously lazy in bed. So not a BDSM gal. But from my understanding of it, like there was a lot of talk about how contracts work and how in Bdsm relationships uh in particular like communication and like clear and positive communication is so important because like the relationship i mean every relationship relies on communication but this one extends to physical safety right and i feel like and again we'll feel free to disagree because I don't have the context for it, but I feel like this movie and franchise kind of conflates like a kinky BDSM style relationship with an abusive relationship and says like one equals the other when all the research I've read indicates that that is not at all the case. So, yeah, I mean, that's like the big criticism, right? She's being introduced to this world that she doesn't know anything about.

Right. And she's confused by it and doesn't feel the way he feels, which is this is supposed to be awesome. And this is what I want. It's like someone who is, i don't know the labels they give themselves so i apologize if i'm getting it wrong but like someone who's into bdsm and then someone who's not right kink first non-kink or something um kink versus virgin she doesn't know what she is yet i mean she might be later you know but she doesn't know and so she's being introduced to it some of it she really likes she's very excited by it some of it scares her and she's getting an education like she's like getting a phd when

she like just learned how to read like it's just too much yeah um so i can see that but what they do with the abuse thing i think is they give them this backstory that it like for him comes from a place of where he was abused so that's why this type of thing gets him off and makes him feel good and in control they get more into that in the later movies but like i think for that point it's like that's okay if that's why you're into bdsm but i just think she's so like but i want to know why why won't you let me touch you like right and like you know she just like wants to know why why are you into this and so there's a lot of like darkness put on it. Like it's this bad, shameful thing.

So in that way, it shames it a little. But then the other, the part that really bugs me the most about this movie, other than the timeline part of it, which is just so insane. Like when I think about what I was like at that age and like I lost my virginity when I was 21. So I was a little later than other, most of my friends. So I know what it's like to be like a late bloomer on some ways. I mean, that's not the latest,

but like it was late for me, felt late. And I can't imagine going to that level that quickly. But one of my biggest issues with it was that while the sexual relationship was actually a pretty straightforward lesson in consent like i actually think that was correct like he got consent in the later in i don't know if it was two or three because i just watched all of them in the past 24 hours but there's like a moment where she said actually uses her safe word she says red and he immediately stops and like unshackles her or whatever.

And like, you know, he like fully respects her sexually in that way, even though he does try to wear her down and he does some coercive things. That's yeah. The part that I can't get over, which is the, the stalking behavior.

Yes. Like, and that, and the abusive, like, and it keeps playing out where he doesn't want her hanging out with her friends.

He's isolating. These are things that abusers do. Like, they don't want you talking to your friends or family. He, like, knows her bank account numbers. He's, like, stalking her and tracing her phone. And, like, it's so inappropriate.

And I actually disagree with the Steve Buscemi thing only in that I don't care how attractive a guy was. I do think if he was behaving that way or rich or anything there would be enough red flags where I would just be like you're fucking creepy yeah like even showing up at my work I don't care who you are if Brad Pitt did that to me I would be like showed up at your no Brad Pitt several hours creeping me out and the illusion is gone. Right. Because, I mean, I just don't find that attractive. And so, like, and I'm always careful to, like, even though it is hilarious to think of, like, a gross, like, schlubby guy from accounting doing this stuff.

Like, that's hilarious. And, of course, women are, you know, the power dynamic. It wouldn't even matter. Like, how do you think Donald Trump gets women? Like, he managed to do it you know like you know what i'm saying like right it doesn't matter what they look like and i so i'm remiss to like because that's an argument you see like from men's rights activists online all the time is like uh well if it was attractive i could do whatever i wanted like if a hot guy did this i I could, you know, and it's like, no, that's actually not true.

No one wants to be like abused. That does happen though. Right. In the movie, that's what the main thing that I just can't, I can't handle that part of it. It's like, it's just and I understand it's a fantasy, but that's not like what I would fantasize about. The Virginia thing bothers me

and it's not even, I mean, you know, she is a consenting adult. I think that consent, I mean, I've only seen the first movie, but consent seems to be something that really was considered very carefully in the way it's represented in this franchise. Because, I mean, it is so easy to get it wrong. Movies get it wrong all the fucking time. And therefore why in 50% of the movies we've covered on this podcast,

there's a weird surprise kiss that's presented as very romantic. So as far as consent goes, I recognize that although she is a virgin, she is a consenting adult as well. But in the scene where she says she's a virgin, when she says that, that visibly increases her value to him. Oh, yeah, he goes, where have you been yeah he gets so like you know it's like boing like it's so fucking right and i'm like no this is where you pump the brakes and make sure she knows what she's getting into that's the responsible way to deal with the

situation not being like oh i have to you know because that is manipulative behavior. He already knows at this point that she does not know anything about BDSM and is interested in a traditional relationship. He knows that. And so what he does to get her into this BDSM relationship is give her a taste of what a traditional relationship might be like and takes her virginity. And that really bothered me. That felt like such a big trespassing of like someone who just like doesn't know yet it's values right sucks and especially because that scene where like he's about to take her virginity if you will he's like we need to change this situation she's like oh it's i'm a situation am i but like because they had already talked about consent and how important that is but then

he he isn't like well can i have sex with you like i don't know it's just weird he's like i'm gonna take you into the room and now you don't even know what's gonna happen he buries the lead in a lot of ways i think where he starts he says i've done this with 500 other women or whatever like he i think he's 15 in this exact same situation. So he knows what he's doing. And he's an adult. And he knows what she doesn't know. And the way that she enters this relationship,

it just puts her at such a big disadvantage. And then the total control he has by buying. In movie two, he buys the company she works for. And it's like, you know, I think there's just so much control. It actually makes me not buy him as a dom. I'm kind of like, he's in so much control in his life, you would think that in his private life, he'd be a sub. But he was a sub. He says he was a sub in his first BDSM relationship, which was rape, because it was an adult woman

with a 15-year-old boy, which Anastasia calls out multiple times in the trilogy. She literally says, she's a child predator. That comes out. Yeah, so when I first saw it, I was like,

I fucking hated that movie. It was just like watching someone being raped and beaten. And then by the third one, I was kind of like, I understand what they're trying to do here, and it is a fantasy, and there were parts of it that I was kind of like, I understand what they're trying to do here. And it is a fantasy. And there were parts of it that I was like,

kind of caught up in. I mean, you know, the sex scenes to me weren't that titillating. Although there were a couple moments where I was like, damn, oh my God. Like when the one where he,

first of all, he breaks and enters into her apartment and shows up. Yes. Like Edward Cullen. So Twilight moment. Unacceptable. Yeah. I don't care who you are um yeah no not okay i don't even if you were brad pitt i'd be like brag pit get the fuck out of my apartment so he shows up in her apartment and he like fucks her on the bed and that part i did i was like damn i might have to pause the movie. Because he pulls up her shirt and uses it as a blindfold.

And I was like, oh my God, that's good. I mean, you can tell he's good at fucking. There's no question. Him and his dead eyes are... Yeah, he's mechanical about it. He's a robot. You will come. Which is kind of hot.

Multiple times. Although in the first movie, she doesn't come. She does not come. We don't see her come. Yeah in the first movie, she doesn't cum. She does not cum. We don't see her cum. Yeah, which I find. Because I was waiting. There were also so much pubes in these movies. You see a lot of pubes.

They go so close to seeing Dick and Vag. They really, and I appreciated that. I wrote down nice pubes, Dornan, and that's genuinely what I felt. She's got pubes too. She's got pubes. She'san, and that's genuinely what I felt. She's got pubes, too. She's got pubes. She's got a little strap. Well, to the point that was brought up earlier, that it has the same problem that we see in Twilight,

where he is stalking her. He's being a predator. He's showing up at her work. He's being very good. Okay, so before I say that, I asked the people who I was talking to, I said, does the Dom sub component of your relationship carry over into other parts of your relationship, not just like in the bedroom for sexual encounters? And different people had different answers.

So I think it probably varies widely. So I was curious, okay, is him being controlling of her just an extension of him being a dom right but then i was like i just i simply can't accept that because he is being very predatory and and it's but it's framed as being romantic she's like oh he's showing up at my work and he's traveled all this way to see me my thing is that it's one thing if she agrees to all of that, but she never signs the contract. She never signs the contract. Right. So if she signs the contract and that behavior is happening

and that behavior is in the contract, then okay, you need to schedule a follow-up meeting with this guy. But she doesn't sign it. I think there's a reason for that after seeing all three. I think the reason is because he is changing too. They're meeting in the middle somehow. And you find that they're trying to find a way to do the sex the way he wants to do it. In a way that she's comfortable with.

And then in exchange. And you see that even happen in the contract negotiation. Where she gets a little bit of the girlfriend experience in exchange. And so you see him breaking his own rules. Because he's like, I'll sweeten the deal. We can do a date once a week. I think that's the reason the contract never got signed. Don't bite your lip.

Right. Turn around. I can't see it or I'm gonna nut right here. Old dead eyes Dornan's like don't bite that lip. Don't bite that lip. I don't want to come yet. I don't want to come. I'm not ready. Also, he's behaving that way long before it's ever agreed upon that

they're going to enter a bdsm that's the thing yeah that oh yeah so that's i think what's the big problem is for me one moment that i was like now this is just crazy is where he's buckling her into the helicopter so sort of like foreshadowing him buckling her up but i was like the way it's done is very much like the similar mechanism of a baby of a car seat where you have to pull it tight. And that made me, once again, underscore something else that I kind of found

interesting about the movie is that it's so childlike in the telling. And I'm so curious about E.L. James' sex life, like the writer of the book, that she's never done anything other than missionary i'm stunted and like i would even there were moments where i was like this movie reminds me of the room yeah where tommy was so in the room clearly had this childlike perception of relationship of sex of like movies and like this is how i'm gonna portray it and i felt this felt

the same thing about 50 shades of gray which is like very childish like a lot of real world problems just sort of melted away i don't know just maybe it's from having heard a lot of erotic writing yeah that was just more grown up and more mature and more really about the characters and in the moment what what it means and like this just felt sort of like an immature view of what bdsm and kink would be someone like el james in my mind probably had never done any of this sex stuff and just fantasized about it imagined it right i don't think she i but i could be wrong. For me, the movie Secretary, if you've ever seen that movie, is an incredible portrayal of a BDSM relationship. And it's disturbing.

It was my first real introduction to that type of relationship and portrayed on screen for sure. And I was really like, oh, it's way more complicated than I thought. It actually, to me, was a beautiful love story. So I highly recommend watching that movie because it's portraying this type of sub-dom relationship in a way that is really raw and real and, like, in the end, very touching. It goes to really fucked up places, but you understand the commitment and the bond between them and that this is what these two people love and enjoy about each other their dynamic is everything now it's there is some weirdness in that the fact that he's her boss but but uh he finds his match she finds her match and it's kind of like incredible which i think another problem i have with this movie is that the power dynamic

and i'm sort of speculating here but i would imagine that in a healthy bdsm relationship the power dynamic is still pretty equal even though it might seem as though one is more dominant and one is more submissive because the sub is setting the limits and calling the shots and feeling liberated and all this stuff. And the dom is basically doing only what the submissive will allow. I would imagine that there's still a pretty equal power balance struck. One thing that the professional dom subs that I heard speak really made big emphasis on something that I noticed was not done in this movie was like after the playroom stuff is done that it's like very important to have like together time

and like cool down time and like, I mean, spooning basically, like after sex. And just, you know, it's like you've had this cathartic experience and you've come to it in whatever way you've come to it consensually but afterwards it's like okay now we're just people and we're together and we care about each other and we don't see that here and and there's one scene in particular where they they don't go full i mean but he he spanks her the night of her graduation and then bails and she's upset yeah and it's like

yeah of course she's upset she's you know she's like still not fully understanding what's happening and then and then he disappears before there's any actual that's just like shitty shitty duty yeah i would have i would have oh god i'm like i was trying to imagine what that conversation with my mom would have been like i would just like like, I don't know. He was like, stay with me and then went back to work. I don't understand. That's what I'm saying. Like, I think there's, he's exerting much more power over her. And there is a very big power imbalance in their relationship.

Whereas he seems like he. A lot of it's unspoken. It's like a threat. She's literally, there's a point in the third movie where she has to like sneak out of her own home because he has security on her. And it's just like, and there's a reason for it that isn't his fault. But like, it's just, there's constant reminders throughout that this man has total control over your life. And even if you tried to get away from him, he would find you. That's abuse.

I mean, that's like, you know, that's the worst nightmare for any woman to not feel that she could come and go if she pleases. Now, the whole time she's, Anastasia is like constantly bucking his attempts to control her completely. You don't own me.

I'll do what I want. And he's like, well, then I'll punish you. And she's like, okay. So there's this weird dynamic they're figuring out, I guess. But the fact that it all happened so quickly is just bizarre. Yeah, there's like a, I think that a very easy story fix, I mean, of the million story fixes available to this franchise, is the only example of someone very into BDSM that we see in the first movie anyways is Christian Grey so everything we see about BDSM is through his experience specifically and that's all we have so even if he comes to BDSM in a

specific way that could happen in real life which is that he has a past history of abuse he is outside of being into bdsm a manipulative and controlling person that's one thing but we there's no counter example to show the audience that that's not necessarily what a bdsm relationship is or even what is normal and so where everything like we only see one person who represents this entire community and it is directly connected to like oh yeah fucked up behavior kind of does tie into bdsm the way this movie presents it like yeah that's a bummer that yeah so many regular americans this is their introduction, and then walk away from it going, oh, that's what that is. It's just a couple, you just tie her up and you spank her a little bit.

Because they never actually, I actually was disappointed, they never actually did some hardcore BDSM type like yes master. Yeah, I heard that it's pretty tame compared to what it could be. Oh, God. The contract negotiation scene is the only time that you really get a glimpse into, like, what could really be going on. What's a butt plug? Jenna does what I'm saying. Although movie three, wait, in movie three they do do some more advanced stuff.

I remember that now. It gets more advanced. She's letting him do some okay some more tools are added to the situation well back to the point that was made a little bit earlier that like so he was abused as a very young child and i think we're meant to believe that that maybe informs part of why he is now into bdsm but the movie frames this as like something that he needs to be cured of or fixed or that like his right his fetish for this yeah as a result but like but as we discussed like the several people i talked about were like yes bdsm can actually be a great way to cope with an assault or past

abuse or something like that but the fact that the movie frames it like he needs to be cured of this fetish that he has and there's other other ways for him to. So like that's. That's a problem. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because like the subtext there is like, oh, a functioning person in society would not have this interest because he's the only person that we have to go on. Can I say, though, that this movie is directed by a woman.

The screenplay is adapted by a woman, adapted from a book written by a woman. It's based on a book written by a different woman. Oh, yeah. Right, exactly. Stephanie Meyer. So, I think that because so many women are involved in the main sort of storytelling components, I

think we saw a different movie than we would have seen if these people were men. First of all, how many times does he eat her out? A lot. That would never would have happened if men were involved. There's a lot of emphasis on her face, her pleasure. And I understand that sometimes people have a problem with that when they're like, you know, well, now it's men or now we're all the male gaze upon her body and da da da.

And so there's a little bit of that going on. But there was definitely like, I mean, in the third movie, he uses a vibrator on her. And it occurred to me, this is truly the first time I've ever seen a vibrator depicted in a movie that wasn't an opportunity to shame a woman. Can you think of any scene with a vibrator that wasn't where the woman was being made fun of because she was using a vibrator because she was old or a mom or getting caught with it. Right. It's almost always like a joke or like, oh, look at her.

She's got a vibrator. Yeah. You lose her. You know, it's always depicted in a way that's meant to make the woman feel bad for having to use it. Right. It is, to me, as a vibrator enthusiast, it is to me a godsend. Aliens sent it to us. They look like little alien designs, like little spaceships.

Oh, yeah. And they take you to space. Yeah. And they're the best. I mean, like, and they should be used. I love that he used it. It's part of his playroom. Like, I liked that they were showing things that had to do with female pleasure and not in a shameful way that were like, you know, this is like, these are tools, you know, that you can all use to, like, make each other feel good that aren't just about the man coming.

Right. Like, in that part, I was like, okay, that that's a to me evidence of women are behind this story in this movie because there's as much of an emphasis on her pleasure experiencing pleasure from this type of relationship as there is for him experience oh you don't even see him really we don't see him that much yeah yeah he it's all about him making her feel good and like you know now the question is like what makes her feel good makes him feel good. And then those lines, you know, pushing boundaries and all those things. All 50 shades of gray, you know.

I mean, yeah, this movie't imagine the subject of consent being dealt with, I think, pretty universally well without this many women involved in high roles. Well, to me, there are three main takeaways from this movie that are very positive. One is the emphasis on female pleasure and it being framed is a thing that not only exists because most media ignores it altogether, but it is also something that is important and that should be strived for. The second thing is female nudity and it making sense for the context of the story because so many movies will have a naked woman or you see a woman's breast and it has nothing to do with the story. Like an example that comes to mind is like in Die Hard, there's this like a topless woman who had been having sex

in a room during the Christmas party and then like the terrorists come and like yank her out. But it's like why is that in the movie? It has nothing to do

with the story. It's just it was an excuse to put a great example of random titties in the movie. Right.

Yeah. At least in this movie we do see a lot of female nudity but it makes sense because this is what the story is about. It's about sex.

Yeah. You would be really, it would just make no sense. To not show it? Yeah, Dakota Johnson, I mean, give it up for her for, like, truly being so naked for so long in all three of those movies. I mean, like, it's a choice she made. And I think she comes out on top in my opinion like think about all the different ways women are naked in movies and at least at least in these movies it's because she's like getting hers you know right well yeah most movies it's just female

absolutely no reason and it's through a very male gaze and very objectifying you know that's not the way we want to see things. The third thing that I think is a great takeaway from this movie, which we've already talked about, is the emphasis on consent. It gets talked about a lot. Most movies don't even mention the word or even acknowledge it as it being a concept. As we, yeah, like Jamie, you said there's a surprise kiss in every other movie that we talk about. There's no surprise kiss in this movie. No surprise kisses.

A few lines that I wrote down, him saying it's important to know that you can leave at any time. I do this with women, women who want me to. We have to be honest with each other for this to work. I won't do anything until I have your written consent. A huge emphasis on it. And it doesn't, I don't come, I was worried when it first came out that it was going to be all about, oh, people are going to think this is what women like an everyday woman who's, you know, dudes are going to think that they can just. It's what we want. But it wasn't portrayed that way at all. You know, I've had my own experiences of like dudes doing things without even asking first. And it's just like, oh, my dear God, why did you think that that was acceptable? Like in any universe, you know, and there's all this, you know, the disease story, I think, is interesting in that it brought up all these questions about consent and like that. It's twofold. One is like, what is porn doing that people are watching this porn that's really, really pretty borderline violent and like a lot of choking and like i would call it skull fucking

like where like a guy is just literally fucking a girl's head and you know she looks like she's dying in it and you're and that's what people are watching and like they're becoming desensitized to more vanilla stuff and wanting this more taboo stuff and they go and hook up with somebody and there's a different perhaps perception like i don't watch porn i i can't watch it because i can't stop thinking about the production yeah and i can't get into it because i'm just like where's the like god who's i even do that a little with like even with 50 shades i'd be like oh man how many times do they have to take that part yeah like it doesn't breath smell like like god how awkward was that like

what do they talk about when they're mad that could just be a symptom of being in the business and thinking about shoots and things like sure but porn just doesn't do it for me yeah i also think there should be like a disclaimer on every porn video that's just like please do not try this at home yeah truly but like unless you have your partners it's like jackass yeah i've seen a little bit of porn and i've seen stuff that like more recent stuff like i watched a couple james dean videos and i was really disturbed and people are like oh he's the feminist one this is before he had his like you know outing as a gross dude he's a rapist and i was like kind of shocked i was like oh this is what people are into.

And, you know, I've seen it. I mean, I've worked on shows where they like pull up porn on, you know, for some for research or something. It's questionable. And, you know, you have seen stuff. And I thought, oh, my God, like my perception of what is acceptable is so far off of like so when you enter into a hookup with somebody even if you think you know that person like you don't know what they've been watching and i just wondered like what is porn doing to young men and then the second piece of the aziz thing that like i thought about while watching 50 shades all the way through again was christian

gray like you said clearly cares about her feelings at every step of the way now we can argue there's points where it's like oh he completely just dismissed her signal of like hey i don't want you showing up at my work um he's like i will um there's those kinds of things but sexually he like is very concerned about her feelings. And that was my thing of, like, no matter how you read the Aziz story, you can't deny the fact that he did not care about her feelings in that. And at what point, you know, when people go, oh, technically, I didn't see any laws broken. And it's like, are you getting out of legal library every time you have sex? Like, do not. At what point do you give a shit about the other person?

Right. And, like, check in with them. Hey this okay are you enjoying yourself the whole i saw a tweet that was like the whole like oh she was just like it was just like fucking a dead body like oh she just laid there and it's like maybe she didn't like it and you ignored that and it's like say anything yeah yeah anyway i my one thing that i i mean we've we've touched on it this whole this whole thing that the main thing for me is just like making sure and this this probably doesn't happen for like someone who is like a mom who's coming into this all of this for the first time is making sure that it's okay to have an abusive relationship depicted on screen, right?

But they do not do a good job of separating what is a BDSM behavior from what is an abusive behavior. It's lumped in as all the same thing. So the things that we see over and over are the stalking behaviors. That's not kinky. Stalking someone isn't kinky. Showing up at their mom's place is not kinky. Stalking someone isn't kinky. Showing up at their mom's place is not kinky. Unless that's something they've previously agreed upon, which they have not.

Which they haven't. Controlling someone's actions without their consent is not kinky. Baiting someone with sort of genuine but mostly not genuine intimacy just because you know that that will keep them coming back without their consent is not kinky. And that is it's also globbed up into the one character who's interested in BDSM in the entire movie that those lines aren't drawn. And I like it. It sucks because it's like there are there are way more positive takeaways from this movie than I ever would have imagined. And I really, and for all, and I have like a short list of all the ways that this movie is exactly like Twilight down to like girl interested in books, never sex before. And she trips sometimes because she's clumsy.

But I like Anastasia. She needs to be scooped up and saved. Yeah, but I like Anastasia. She needs to be scooped up and saved. Yeah, but I like Anastasia. I like her better than Bella Swan. She's older. She's less of an annoying teenager. I understand. She's like, you know, whatever, a woman in her early 20s who doesn't know that much,

but she is a more active character than I thought she was going to be, advocates for herself more than I thought she would, calls him active character than i thought she was going to be advocates for herself more than i thought she would calls him out more than i thought she would and ultimately sets the boundary and is like you know fuck off for now yeah so i just i wish that this movie for all the good stuff it does with like consent and bringing a relationship like this into the mainstream it doesn't do a good job with saying like, okay, this is how this BDSM relationship works. But don't think that. In the second and third, by the third, they've kind of moved away from, is it a BDSM relationship?

Is it not? They've kind of moved away from that and they're into, there's other like very melodramatic stuff happening. That's like more outside factors are now affecting their lives like you know like stalkers and the volturi yeah real enemies yeah definitely like there's yeah i found myself at moments during the third movie being like oh man i really wish a rich man would just come take me away well that's the other thing is portraying bDSM as this very cosmopolitan rich boy thing, too. Oh, yeah. Which I thought was kind of funny.

It's just like, I'm into kinky stuff and me have a helicopter and now you get a car. And I wrote down, I want a sex laptop. Where's my sex laptop? Give me my free sex laptop. At one point during the third movie, they get into a private jet and she's like, you own this? And I'm like, bitch, have you not paid all the well they did only he does every it's only been eight weeks so yeah right she's still like impressed yeah holy cow yeah we're seeing their like halo period yeah uh but as someone who grew up secretly watching real sex on hbo late at night as quiet as i could

while still hearing it i already knew going into this movie that kink has nothing to do with class or attractiveness because real sex featured some very everyday average looking people doing very kinky stuff and to the point where it was like kind of hilarious. Anyway, I love real sex. That's where I got my education about sex. Can I run down the ways in which E.L. James lifts directly from Twilight in the first movie alone? Okay, so protagonist, girl who read Virgin. There is a character who's like the boy who's around who has a crush on her who's like, wait, you don't have a crush on me back? I'm furious.

And then he gets hit. Shitty mom who doesn't show up to important life events because of her most recent husband, which we see in Twilight with Bella's mom and her minor league baseball boyfriend. She's like, sorry, hon, can't make your high school graduation. My boyfriend's in the batting cage

and I don't want to seem unsupportive. And then, yeah, mom being such a romantic that she's basically handicapped at being a good parent oh even though the very hot intelligent female protagonist she's a little bit quiet but somehow every man that comes into contact with her in love with her obsessed with her can't get over it uh there's just something special right there's just something about you and it's like she has not said anything other than she's read a book the piano scene literally the piano scene same exact thing as twilight wait till the third movie there are 50 shades oh no there's a piano scene that's like oh what the fuck like we didn't know the whole time oh and then the weirdly

close wealthy family dynamic yes that whole scene with the family was like oh this is kind of like edward collins very close creepy so close it's creepy family where marcia gay harden's like who's this what's this also shout out marcia gay really enjoyed her presence in this movie and she knows exactly what movie she's in yes so good so and pacific northwest like they're like let's not relocate it right you can't same location so yeah if there was any doubt that you were shout out to your favorite movie doubt if there were any doubt 2008 an actor's film john petra shanley that this was based on Twilight originally. I mean, the flags are everywhere.

Replace vampires with kink. Yeah. Because Edward Cullen's a fucking stalker too. Yep, exactly. The only other, we haven't, we've mentioned her once, but I don't even know if we've mentioned her by name. The other female character in this movie.

Her roommate? Kate. Kate, yeah. Kate's weird. Kate, there's a very uncanny valley quality about kate because she's there to ask questions very weird b story about kate in the third movie that's like this wasn't necessary at all kate hangs out she sticks around well it's only eight weeks because she's she's fucking his brother the brother is like yeah just a doofus. He's like the type of guy that would be like a mountain dude commercial.

I like in the first movie where they're like the brunette couple is like the smart ones. And then the blonde ones are like, they just walk in on them fucking. And they're like, hey, put your pants on, blonde people. Yeah. The brunettes are here. It's like, what is happening? This is another example of a movie where the romantic

relationship, it's not necessarily ever really clear why the two characters like each other or why setting the BDSM thing completely aside. Just their personalities. Kind of like The Shape of Water. Where suddenly they're in love. She gives them an egg and now they're in love.

What the fuck? Excuse me, that's how all my relationships started you're like you're talking about my eggs i'm carrying around pockets full of eggs at any given time making people fall in love with me but yeah i mean so many movies do not handle this well where we actually see what the two characters are compatible over and why we don't know i'm so sorry that was a debt collector oh great yeah so i just i just don't know why it's so hard for movies about romance to actually depict romance well in a way we're like oh we understand why anastasia would like christian and why christian the only reason that's given is like christian's just like i can't stay away from you and i guess she likes him because he's rich like i don't know there was one line where he,

and this is at the very beginning, where he was just like, he knew what, like, the name of three books and you could tell she was impressed by that. And I was like, oh, this is hack, but I get, she's like, oh. That's a bare minimum, though. Oh, no, I totally agree.

I just, I'm like, they tried exactly one time, but I noticed I was just like, oh, yeah, also, I can read. And she's like, oh my god. Jane Austen, Bronte, Thomas Hardy. Yeah, anyway. I will say that I'm pretty sure this movie passes the Bechdel test

in its first spoken words. In the very first scene of the first movie, they're talking in a way they're talking about Christian Gray because it has to do with the fact that she's leaving to go interview him

but he is not explicitly stated so the very first scene they're just talking about like you know good luck is that what you're wearing

do you need anything take my car I have a GPS like yeah they don't they're talking about like her prepping for the interview

with him but he does not actually get stated so I would guess that it I think it does I would guess that it. I think it does. I would say that scene passes, even though the context of their conversation is about interviewing a man. However, yeah, I would.

Most of the scenes after that are either Anastasia and Kate or Anastasia talks to his mom very briefly a few times. But most of the conversations are about Christian Grey. I was genuinely. I like I yelped. I was like, did this movie just pass in minute one? Can't believe it. But yeah, Kate quickly just becomes a little like, how do you feel? Oh, he's looking at you.

The way that Kate addresses her not being a virgin anymore is very bizarre. Where she's like, how do you feel? And Anna goes, I feel different. And she's like, yeah, you do. I was like, oh, that's the end of the conversation? Great.

Cool. And then Anna logs into her sex laptop and answers sex emails that her sex boyfriend is sex harassing her with. Lots of harassing emails in this movie.

Shall we rate the movie on our nipple scale? Let's do it. All right. Based on the portrayal of Lemon, we have a nipple scale of zero to 5 nipples, 5 being the best. Okay. I'm going to have to just sort of talk through this one because, like I said, there are a few major things that I think the movie does really well in that it promotes consent as being a very important thing.

Female nudity is not gratuitous and actually makes sense in the context of the story for once. And female pleasure is framed as something that is good and that that's something that you should strive for. However, the romantic relationship, if you can call it that, because he's so reluctant to say that he needs to. I don't do romance. I fuck hard. I don't make love. I fuck hard. I don't make love. I fuck hard. That was a big moment in Miami. For all intents and purposes, we'll call it a romantic relationship because it is, like you said, Jamie, him being abusive and predatory is lumped in with the BDSM aspect of their relationship and not separated as those two things should be.

And his predatory behavior not being framed as something that's problematic in the movie, it almost kind of cancels out the good things of it. It's weird. It's weird. And then also it's like, okay, they don't separate those behaviors. And then so as a result, the audience takeaway is that BDSM proclivity is is a thing to be cured. Yeah. And not just a part of someone that can be accepted because it looks so dangerous the way it's presented in the movie. Right. So with that in mind, I think I'm going to give it one nipple. OK. I'm going to give it one nipple. Okay. Because for all of its positive things, I think those are immediately canceled out by the negative parts of the movie. So one nipple, I will give it to Anastasia's bare nipple that you see many, many times.

I'm going to give it two. Okay. I thought maybe one was too low, but I'm sticking with one. I'm going to give it two. And I do feel like if I saw all three movies, I might feel a little bit different. But based on the first movie alone, I'm going to give it two. I wish just in general, I mean, it's a movie about a relationship between two people. I wish that the female B characters were given more to do and more to contribute other than just asking Anastasia how she's feeling because it's

bad writing and also because we don't know anything about them so the way the B characters are treated especially with the women was like pretty lazy and I feel like we could have gotten a lot more by using them more but Anna as a character I do like her and i feel for her and i think she is disserviced in a lot of ways primarily by how her partner represents all things kink and how consent is dealt with well so much is not dealt with well but based on our central female protagonist i like her i feel for her i was like excited and like rooted for her when she got hers, recognized where her boundary was and was like, I'm out. But then, I mean, again, it's just whenever we do a story that's like,

this story is badly written. It's a challenge from moment one. But I will give this two. I'll give one to Anna and I'm going to give one to Marsha Gay Harden because she's a woman in STEM. She's a doctor. right she's a doctor i'll give it two i wish i could give it less because i wish the bar was higher right yeah but we're just so desperate for like anything that's not created by a man written by men men. You know, like, this does feel different and it's like,

oh, I can see a little bit of the light cracking through the, you know, the bro shield. On the right track. Yeah.

On the right track, a good start. Let's get a better written story. Let's, better acting, more complex story. I fuck hard.

I fuck hard. I fuck hard. Let's, show us more kinky Seattle stories. Yeah, I mean,. I fuck hard. Let's show us more kinky Seattle stories. Yeah, I mean reboot Frasier. Like movies that

celebrate women's sexuality like Magic Mike and like you know they're just it's fun to go see those movies and I agree that like

women should be able to go see movies like this Twilight, you know whatever. I mean the most fun I've ever had in movie theaters

are those types of movies. Like I went to Twilight, the first one. Tears were streaming down my face. I was laughing so fucking hard because the women in the audience were going nuts. Teen girls. I mean, every time when like Taylor Lautner came on the screen, they were like, oh, my God. And I was just like, oh, my God. It was like women were just like in their in their element.

It was like we were having like a witch gathering in the woods. That is so great. I love that. And then the other one was I went to see a Magic Mike screening that was so fun. It was Magic Mike 2. And it was just like everyone was dying laughing throughout the whole movie. It was so fun. And then the other one, which I'll never forget, was i went to the opening night in new york of um

he's just not that into you oh whoa and it was almost all women in the audience and like everyone had brought wine like snuck in wine i mean people were like wasted and it was like so fucking funny because there was one moment where that would be a good one for y'all to do if you haven't already we haven't no i remember i saw that after my first breakup. He's just not. I loved the movie. It's a good movie. I enjoyed it. I've never hated another book more in my entire life. I think I hate.

Yeah, I hate the idea of it. But the movie was very entertaining. And it was really fun to be in a movie theater. But there's a moment in the movie that's like the big dramatic like proposal moment. And no joke, you could hear this ripple across the theater where it was dead quiet and then just a sort of wave of laughter because every woman was crying. And then it was like, you're crying. No, you're crying. And everyone started fucking laughing. And it was so funny. It was just like, there's just not that many movies where it's like women,

where it centers women in a way that like and we are like a force like twilight these are juggernauts they made so much money but they were treated like second fiddle to these horrible superhero movies that are just absolute shit what do you mean justice league was great there's there yeah there are so there are so few places where like groups of women from all different all can just get into the same room and have a weird, silly, good time. And so I never want to be like, Fifty Shades of Grey shouldn't exist. It's got a ton of problems, but I'm thrilled it exists because it gives you that good cathartic experience that it's super hard to find anywhere except the movies. Worth mentioning, this is a very white movie.

This is a very hetero movie. Yeah. A lot of straighties, a lot of white people. As with most movies, which is no excuse, but, you know, follows the trend. Absolutely. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for being here. Wonderful discussion. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. thank you so much for being here wonderful discussion about 50 shades of gray with us yeah yeah where can people follow you what would you like to plug you can follow me on

twitter instagram sarah shaffer one across the board and i have this new podcast which i'm really excited about which is sort of weird and it's like me in the future commenting on right now it's got like a fictional element to it of fantasy dystopian thing going on plus real topical discussion um very cool and what's the name of your podcast it's called loner at coy wolf creek coy wolf being like a combination of coyote species of uh already exists there's a new species of animal uh where some coyotes and wolves and dogs. A little bit of dog in there. Whoa. Fucked. A little bit of dog. And created. Yes. Kinky dogs.

Yes. Christian Graywolf. Okay, I don't know. Oh, there's already a wolf thing. It's Twilight. Oh. Taylor Lautner. Hey, you can follow the Bechdel cast on all the social media platforms, Facebook, Instagram,

Twitter. You can rate and review us on iTunes. You can buy our merch online. What? Oh my gosh. Wild. You can also subscribe to us on iTunes. You can buy our merch online. What? Oh my gosh. You can also subscribe to our Patreon and give us $5 a month and then you get two bonus episodes of the Bechtelcast every month. It's a win, win, win, win, win, win. And other than

that, I just want everyone to know that I fuck hard. I fuck hard. See you in the playroom. Sounds like you might not. You have to say it. I actually fuck very soft. Sounds good. See you in the playroom. Sounds like you might not. You have to say it. I actually fuck very soft. Sounds good. Thank you.

Put it on a t-shirt. Okay, bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption

that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years.

I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can K trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television,

iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions,

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