The Bechdel Cast - First Cow with Mattie Lubchansky

Episode Date: August 28, 2025

On this episode, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Mattie Lubchansky examine First Cow (2019) and *milk* the conversation for all it's worth! Follow Mattie on IG at @mattielubchansky | check out her website at mattielubchansky.com | buy her book Simplicity at https://bookshop.org/p/books/simplicity-mattie-lubchansky/21997655?ean=9780593701126&next=t&next=t See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Awuga, Awuga. We're going on tour in the Midwest. Welcome to the Bechtelcast live. We will be covering, you guessed it, the Star Wars prequels on tour in the Midwest coming up at the end of the month, the end of August into early September.

It will be chaos. Everyone has been asking, begging us for, years. Why aren't you talking about the Star Wars prequels? Talk about Jar Jar. Talk about Georgia. Fine. Fine. We'll do it. And we're going to be doing that in various cities in the Midwest, starting with Indianapolis. As a part of Let's Fest, that's on August 30th for a matinee, plus Jamie's solo show that evening. Yes, that is J.B. Loftus and her pet rock solve the problems of the world, and we will. And we certainly will. Following that the very next day is a show in Chicago on Sunday, August 31st at 715. That's at the Den

Theater. We're so excited to come to Chicago. Then we'll be in Madison, Wisconsin. That is going to be on September 4th at the Burr Oak Theater at 730. And we are rounding things out in Minneapolis, Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater at 7 o'clock on September 7th. We are so excited to bring all of our spicy jar jar tags to bring our erotic fan fiction, our incredible reenactments, our cosplay, our scary cosplay, our exclusive merch, all the stuff you want from a podcast show from the Bechtelcast. It's happening and then some, and then things you just straight up didn't ask for. That's the promise. That is the Bechtelcast guarantee. You can grab your tickets to all of these shows at our LinkTree, LinkTree slash Bechelcast. You simply do not want to

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The patriarchy's effing vast, start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Jamie and Caitlin here, we're going on tour in the Midwest covering the Star Wars prequels. We're going to just cover all three at once in one show in fabulous outfits. We will be in Indianapolis for Let's Fest on Saturday, August 30th for a matinee show. And then Jamie, you have a solo show that evening that can't be missed. Called Jamie Loftus and her pet rock, solve the world's problems, in which that will happen i can't wait then we are going to chicago you asked we listened we will be at the den theater on august 31st do not miss it and then then we will be in madison wisconsin on thursday

september 4th and then finally we will be ending the tour in minneapolis minnesota at the dudley rigs theater on sunday september 7th uh so if you have been one of the many people asking us to come to your town for the last 10 years we're doing it we would love to see you you can get all tickets at link tree slash bectalcast exquisite me we'll see you there enjoy the episode the becdo okay when the cow came on screen i was like that's the first cow yeah like i've never had a movie watching experience where the movie shows you so clearly the title of the movie but in classic Kelly fashion, has the restraint to not be like, there's the first cow! Like, and I felt like I had blue balls.

I had narrative blue balls. But there she was, the first cow. There she was. Female protagonist, we could argue. I was really expecting this to be sort of like a silence of the lamb situation where you never see the lambs on screen. They're only referenced in one line of dialogue. Right. But this is a movie about the first cow.

We're not waiting for Godot here. The first cow is she takes her sweet time, but once she's there, she's there. And she's not just there. She represents capitalism and the means of fucking production. She's a metaphorical cow. A metaphysical, a physical, a metaphorical, everything, cow. She's everything. Welcome to the Bechdel cast.

The Bechdel Cow. I don't know. The Bechal Cow, it makes you think. It really does. And this is our show. where we're the first two bectal cows oh yeah i'm first caitland dorante i'm first jamie this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the bectal test or the becdell cow perhaps as a jumping off point but jamie what is that well it is a media

metric originally created by our dear friend friend of the cast alison bechtel originally created as a joke, a lark, a gag in her comic. Thanks to watch out for it in the 80s. It has since become a mainstream media metric. There's many versions of this test. Ours requires the following two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man. You know, and we've got, we've got an interesting discussion ahead. I can't believe this is our first Kelly Reichard movie. And we have an incredible guest today. We certainly do. She's a cartoonist and illustrator, the author of the new graphic novel Simplicity, which is in bookstores now.

It's Maddie Lubchanski. Welcome. Welcome. Hi. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. I also, when the cow showed up, leaned over to my, my dear wife, and I whispered to her, that's the first cow. Because you have to.

It's so satisfying. It's so triumphant. She's so beautiful. She flies onto the screen with angel wings. It's the most beautiful cow in the world. Yes. She really is. And she's been through it.

And she's been through it. She's a widow. I know. Truly. I was like, I would actually really love to see the Pixar version of first cow also. Whereas just a deeply traumatized cow who makes friends with kind of a, who's the guy in Ratatoui? Because Cookie to me has the Ratatoui guy energy. Oh, sure.

Linguini? Linguini. Linguini. he is cookie and linguine they like they're on a similar frequency yeah and then and then later when someone's talking about this movie they can be like you know you think it's a kid's movie but it's really about bovine trauma it is bovine generational trauma this movie is fascinating because like on the first watch you're like huh what is this movie about and then the second watch you're like oh it's about food sovereignty and capital okay okay she was cooking because at first you're like that sure was a cow some cow let's get into it mattie what is your history with this movie so yeah i love this movie so much it was actually my first cali record that i saw um and it was during this movie came out 2019 i believe and during uh lockdown for covid in 2020 my partner is in the wGA we started getting screeners and i was like i heard people ranting and raving about this film people i know that like movies

and i was like i'll force us to watch this we had a very elaborate nightly movie viewing in my home during lockdown, where I got on YouTube, I found like the regal roller coaster and I would turn up all the lights and I would make popcorn and I would play that on the screen to make, to put us in a movie mode, you know? I love hearing what people's like simulation of normalcy was during lockdown because it's like that's a good one. That's a very comforting move. I yearned for the regal Kaufmanistoria cinemas and I had to go there in my mind. And, you know, I'd go put our phones in the other room and watch it, watch a movie every night. So, yeah, we watched this movie, and it just fully blew me away to the point where that year for my wife's birthday, I found the cow on cameo.

Oh, what? The cow is on cameo. Not anymore. Cow meo. Very briefly, the cow was on cameo, and I found it. And I bought my wife for her birthday, a birthday message from I believe the cow's name was Eve, who played the cow. And Eve picked between two no fortunes on the ground Wait, that's elaborate

Yeah, it's really elaborate And while this was happening You know in the very, when they first get to the fort in the movie You see that guy kind of like wandered by the camera And he's holding like a squealing little pig Yeah That pig wanders into frame And she goes, oh, there's so and so

He's in the film as well Wait, were they from the same farm? Yeah, they're like some, I think in Oregon or Washington or British Columbia I can't quite remember I have to like go The video is saved somewhere on my On my partner's fun I'd go find it Wow please yes

The stars are just like us I love when stars are friends Yeah they seem to be hanging out all the time The frog and the pig and the cow I also love that she gets That there's no human on the poster either Yeah It's just Eve the cow

Yeah this was my second Kelly Reichard movie Two of two. I feel like she's the kind of director that I know I will probably enjoy all of her work, but I don't want to like mainline it. I feel like it's nice to I watched my first I watched certain women last year, which is terrific. And Lily Gladstone is in this movie for two seconds, but she is like unbelievable in certain women. So I already knew that I really like Kelly Wright card. I also like I also just generally like learning. about her process, she's very thorough and she's very anti-Hollywood, where it seems like she makes movies when she feels like it. She rarely makes them outside of Oregon where she's from and where she lives. I think she's from Miami, but she's like been in Oregon forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's best friends with, I think, Todd Haynes. Like, she's just a vibe. Yeah, she came and did a last year, I think, she came to.

the museum of the moving image which I go to all the time because it's in my neighborhood and she did a talkback for showing up which is a movie that I love also but listening to her it was like the first good talk back I've ever been to in my life it was incredible she just her process talk is like amazing awesome

she's like she's both so thorough and like it doesn't seem to give a fuck about a lot of the like more I don't know bullshity yada yada aspects of filmmaking I just I really like her but this is only my second movie I've seen of hers and it's really good I was really taken by like what a simple story it is that like masks all of these really complicated themes the performances were great I couldn't stop thinking about linguine to be perfectly honest I don't know what I was like and I was looking up like has anyone else thought that the guy from first cow reminds him of linguine and I'm proud to say I think I may have had an original thought thank you thank you but I really really enjoyed this movie

There's so much going on. I do have some thoughts about it, and I'm excited to get into it. Yeah, Caitlin wants your history with First Cow. I had never seen it before. It was my first Cowell, First Kelly, Rikard movie. I knew of it, and I remember it being released, but I was also kind of confusing this movie with the power of the dog. Wow. Okay.

First of all, misogynist of you. Well, I hate women. Okay, do you hate women with bobs? Well, okay, in my defense, both movies have an animal in the title. True. Similar release, right? Farber the dog came out like a yearish later? A couple years apart, both of them are directed by women.

Both movies are period pieces. So you see where my head's at, I hope. Cancelled. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, hadn't seen. this movie before and listeners of the show will know probably that this is not really my type of movie. I think there's really interesting things that the movie does and says, but the movie made me sleepy. But I'm excited to talk about it. There's lots to discuss. And let's take a break and then

we'll come back for the recap. Awuga, Awuga. We're going on tour in the Midwest. Welcome to the Bechtelcast live. We will be covering, you guessed it, the Star Wars prequels on tour in the Midwest coming up at the end of the month, the end of August into early September.

It will be chaos. Everyone has been asking, begging us for years, why aren't you talking about the Star Wars prequels? Talk about Jar Jar. Talk about Georgia. Fine. Fine. We'll do it. And we're going to be doing that in various cities in the Midwest, starting with Indianapolis. As a part of Let's Fest, that's on August 30th for a matinee, plus Jamie's solo show that evening. Yes, that is J.B. Loftus and her pet rock solve the problems of the world, and we will. And we certainly will. Following that, the very next day is a show in Chicago on Sunday. August 31st at 715. That's at the Den Theater. We're so excited to come to Chicago. Then we'll be in Madison, Wisconsin. That is going to be on September 4th at the Burr Oak Theater at

730. And we are rounding things out in Minneapolis, Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater at 7 o'clock on September 7th. We are so excited to bring all of our spicy jar jar tags to bring our erotic fan fiction, our incredible reenactments, our cosplay, our scary cosplay, our exclusive merch, all the stuff you want from a podcast show from the Bechtelcast, it's happening and then some, and then things you just straight up didn't ask for. That's the promise. That is the Bechtelcast guarantee. You can grab your tickets to all of these shows at our LinkTree, link tree slash Bechtelcast. You simply do not want to miss these shows. So be there. or else Darth Mall is going to get you.

Excuse me. See you there. Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this. Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane. Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying like, okay, pull this.

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In each episode, we'll talk about love, friendship, heartbreak, men, and of course, our favorite secrets. Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club as a part of the Michael through a podcast network available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro.

And these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th, season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you, stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. We're back. Actually, before we get into it, Maddie, I neglected you to do this at the top of the episode. Let's talk a little bit about your new book before we talk about the events of the movie first. How?

Yeah. So I was thinking about this movie when we were talking about picking movies because, I did the way the movie is framed to me was so fascinating and I didn't I'm loath to say I ripped it off from my book but I did it I was very inspired by it so yeah the book takes place in the far future like 50 years from now and America has like collapsed into various like walled fascist city states and like an academic from like the New York one of the city states is sent up to the Catskills to like do an ethnography of this cold group that's been living there since the 1970s and he kind of falls in love with someone up there but then very mysterious things start happening and members of the group start disappearing in him and this guy that he's in love with kind

of like trek off into the woods to figure out what happened so there's a lot of like very tranquil wood stuff I was thinking about when I was making the book and it's about sort of like both capitalism but also utopian separatism and communal living and that kind of stuff and the urges that drive people to sort of make those decisions

like leave society and start anew somewhere else I haven't quite finished it yet but I started a couple nights ago and it's so terrific I also love your last book Boys Weekend is so incredible the range the range

it's just you're incredible thank you I'm very excited to keep reading it and yeah I wanted to ask because it was like it feels like this book is in conversation with this movie a bit yeah the the book is sort of framed through the first thing you see is like the spoilers for the first page of my book um but it's like it's like kids in a museum and they're talking about like the events of the book like they've already happened right it's different it's much different in the movie but this idea that like we're all just sort of like subject to like the tide of history washing over us at all times and having that in mind from the jump so much

of the book also is about what history is and who records it and who's it recorded for who's it recorded by who is it the intended listener or reader of the history being made and all that stuff is really important i'm always trying to think about that um so i think a period piece like this is so has a lot of that in mind as well absolutely nice yeah uh well i'm excited for listeners to to it out as well. Well, let's start talking about first cow. It would be nice. Do we know, is Eve still with us? Eve the cow? Yeah. Oh, boy. She's not credited on Wikipedia, which seems like it should be fixed. She's credited on IMDB. Thank God. I think her name is Evie. Evie, okay. Evie the cow. Okay. She should start a book club or something. Like, she should get on her like influencer wave. I would

take her, like if you put a few books before her and she sniffed one, I'd be like, I'll give it a shot. Yeah, according to the GQ profile, I found it for her name is Eve, but she's nicknamed Eve. She's nicknamed Evie. Okay. Wow. Okay, so she was two when they filmed the movie. Prodigy.

So I'm like, what is the lifespan? Of a cow? Of Jersey cow? I think it's, well, okay, let's check this out really. They live like 20 years. Yeah, it's like, it's a relatively long life. I think all things considered. I think they might, yeah, 15 to 20 years. Okay.

So like a cat. Yes. Great. I'm glad we were on the same page there. First cat. And there's a cat in the movie also. There is. Okay. So here is what happens in First Cow. We open on a woman, played by Alia Shokat, out in the woods walking her dog. Some would say that is the power of the dog. And I think our friend would agree. I think this is also like, I haven't seen it, but I know that one of Kelly Rikar's earlier movies stars Michelle Williams and a dog.

I think it's called Wendy and Lucy. I felt like it was like a little nod, girl in her dog. It's a Kelly thing. You wouldn't understand. No, I wouldn't. But anyway, she and the dog come upon a couple human skeletons, which are kind of like half buried in the ground. And then all your show cat like unearths the rest of them.

She looks so excited when she's digging up the skeletons. I've noted that, too. Something I noticed on this video that I not noticed last time I watched it where she's like, Wow. She looks so jazzed about it. She's the only character who doesn't come back. So it's like, whatever. She worked at this movie for three hours.

Who, like, her reaction, I was like, okay, so she knows she's in the movie for his cow. Like, that's how she reacts. Because otherwise, an absolutely unhinged reaction to finding two skeletons. because she has no way of knowing how recent these skeletons are. They're fairly well preserved. Yeah. This could be from a couple years ago. This could be people she knows.

Could be. I don't know how long it takes for a body to like fully decompose. I mean, not longer than a few years. So this could be we don't, we don't know. We don't know. But they're from the early 19th century. And it seems like she knows that based on, she's like, oh my God, the protagonist of first cast. this is awesome

yes because we we flash back to 1820's Oregon territory so it's wild wild west vibes it's Oregon trail vibes Will Smith is there fighting a big spider everyone's dying of

dysentery a man is in the woods picking mushrooms this is Otis Figuitz though he goes by Cookie Ligweeney I mean both

names that are food i know i mean and the same sort of like moppy you know like the little hair cut and the little like i'm just a guy i don't know like the same vibe i'm coming around on this get john magro to play linguine in the live action ratitude that they are bound to make right he would be so good so he's traveling with a band of fur trappers and they're headed to a place called Fort Tillicum. Cookies is in charge of finding and cooking them food on their journey, but this is a difficult task, and their food supply is running low, and they keep getting on cookies' case about it. That night, as he's like scavenging for more food, he meets another traveler, an immigrant from China named King Liu, played by Orion Lee, who is here on this continent

in hopes of finding gold or just like any kind of prospect. But he hasn't had any luck. And right now there are some Russian men chasing him because he may have killed one of their friends. He's also crucially nude. Right. Bucknaked. I love King Lou so much.

He's so cool. Especially how calmly he presents. King Lou is a certified yapper. I really, really like. him where he's he's always just yapping it up he presents all information matter-of-factly whether it is like regardless of what he's like well yeah I'm being chased and cookies's like why he's like well I may have killed someone and cookie's like tight tight tight tight and it works and he's like okay I guess come with me where you get the feeling where if if King Lou appeared panicked

the events of the movie couldn't happen but he's got a very cool head cool as a cucumber yeah and like compared to the horrible vibe of the trappers that the horrible awful vibe of those terrible men it's like oh we got a guy i can chop it up with come sleep in my tent please yeah it yeah totally makes sense where cookies like all right so maybe he killed a russian guy but he seems like he can hang and i don't know anyone like that and that's sort of how they come together also he killed the russian guy because the russian guys killed his friend yeah but it's implied that his friend was stealing from them so you know it's like a chicken and the egg kind of thing who was the first person to do something wrong we don't know they're cut from the same cloth yeah cookie and king

loo and i also feel like cookie it just based on and again it's like we don't get a lot of expository like kelly makes you work for it but i feel like cookie in some ways like there's something in the other that cookie would like to be more like king lu in some ways and vice versa They complement each other very well. So yeah, Cookie finds King Lou. He gives him some water and lets him sleep at the campsite that night. The next day, King Lou kind of disappears. Cookie manages to catch some fish in a net as he's by the river.

I don't even know if Cookie sees this, but we see a cow being brought to land. The first cow. and we start cheering. Yeah. Going crazy. Oh, it's so good on her. Like, she's on a raft. Yeah.

But it feels like she's being brought in on like an ancient Roman litter. Like she's drifting into frame and it's incredible. Yeah, it looks like a classical painting of like a victory parade in Rome or something. There's just like, yeah, it's incredible. Yes. I got a big foam finger that says cow and I'm holding it up and waving it around. And the one. and indicates which cow it is.

The fur is first. That's exactly right. Right. We will learn that this is the first cow in the Oregon Territory, which a rich man from England named Chief Factor had shipped to this area so that he could have milk in his tea. Shortly after this, Cookie arrives at the fort. then he goes to a saloon where he encounters King Liu again who invites Cookie back to his cabin in the woods for a drink this is a funny scene because Cookie's supposed to be watching a baby

while the baby's father is busy being in a like a bar brawl again that felt like the beginning to a totally different movie about the baby I know I thought the baby was going to come back no I kept thinking this movie was going to be about so many different things because when they go back to King Lou's cabin, I'm like, and they're like drinking. I'm like, is this going to become like a broke back mountain type story? Well, especially because they were, their skeletons, I mean, you sort of guess early on, okay, these are the, you're like, they're met laying beside each other. And you're sort of like, dare I hope. I know.

But. Yeah. And there's a like beautiful little domestic scene where like you keep seeing King Lou in the window, like outside doing like man stuff. chopping firewood etc chopping firewood inside cookies like tidying up

and hoping he doesn't like notice that he's like sweeping his house and putting potted flowers on the shelves and stuff they're so complimentary like it's really lovely

but they're just friends it's cool just friends it's cool you guys they're just friends they should have kissed but yeah they're just friends I feel like they didn't not kiss too

because it's like Kelly keeps you guessing you don't know they didn't kiss yeah they were spiritually kissing we just didn't see them kiss on screen But that house did not have two beds. Yeah. True. Because like eventually cookie just moves in with King Lou.

Anyway, Cookie's supposed to be babysitting, this random stranger's baby. And King Lou's like, leave the baby. It's fine. Let's go have a drink. So they're chatting. And King Lou talks about how this is the land of opportunity and that he's biding his time until he can capitalize on some opportunity. and hopefully become rich.

He's had different ideas on how to do this, such as selling beaver oil from beaver glands, but again, nothing really has panned out. Cookie says that he would like to open a hotel or a bakery someday, and this is a seed that gets planted in King Lou's brain, and he keeps talking about a hotel. He's a yapper. Then Cookie sees Chief Factor's cow and tells King Lou about it.

He's like, I'd love some of that milk to use for baking. And King Lou is like, okay, pitch, let's go steal milk from the cow. So they do. They sneak over to Chief Factor's house at night. King Lou is on the lookout while Cookie milks the cow. And he's, like, also empathizing with the cow. Yes. Which is a plot point, weirdly.

They bond. They bond. They become good friends. Linguini. I'm telling you. Linguini and a rat? Cookie and a cow? First rat.

Okay, so they return to the cabin with the milk. The next day, Cookie makes some biscuits. King Lou is like, yummy, yummy, we should take these to the fort and sell them. Cookie is hesitant, but they go for it because cookies kind of a doormat. He'll just go along with whatever. And right away, the men at the fort buy all the biscuits. They're like, hubba, hubba, these are delicious. And King Liu sort of preys on their own racism to avoid describing the ingredients. Yeah. Yeah, he says like, oh, it's an ancient Chinese secret kind of thing.

Yeah. Meanwhile, it's the first. cow. It's the milk of the first cow. Yes. That night they steal more milk from the cow and the next day it's much the same where the biscuits fly off the shelf. It's almost like these hot cakes are selling like hot cakes. I was really excited to write that down anyway. I was thrilled. I was thrilled. Yeah. So this goes on for like a few weeks it seems where they steal milk at night, use it. to bake tasty treats and sell them at a pretty steep markup. They're charging, I think, the equivalent of at least five whiskey shots for a biscuit. Yes.

Which is wild to think about because I feel like in current dollars during happy hour, that's still $50. $50 a biscuit. And then they charge, we'll get to this part, but Chief Factor comes around eventually and they charge him double. So he's paying $100 a biscuit. The point is they're making quite a bit of money from this endeavor, which they hide in a tree because 1820. It's so funny because he's like, we got to put this in a bank. And they're like, yeah, a bank like a tree. I honestly, the way things are headed right now, I was like, tree bank, not the worst idea.

Not the worst idea. Not the worst. Bring it back. So one day, Chief Factor played by Toby Jones, one of my favorite character. he's so great he comes by and he buys a biscuit and we're all wondering if he's going to notice that milk is one of the ingredients milk that would have to come from his cow because he has the first and only cow in the region but he doesn't notice it first i mean it which is fun because he's you know the most powerful colonizer in the story and he is not smart he's a bit of a dunce Yes. And it also, I think, really, again, like, subtly shows, like, the power of, like, how nostalgia is something that can result in you not asking questions you should probably ask, where he literally says, this tastes like London. And it's like, well, think a little harder about why that might be. But he's just so, like, thrilled to have this taste of his past that he doesn't ask questions until, like, forced to. That's the power of the milk, the power of the cat. I was going to say, I just hate it when I'm enjoying a Proustian reverie,

and people use that as an opportunity to take advantage of me. I cannot stand it when that happens to me. At your most vulnerable. My most Proustian, people are taking advantage of all the time. Anyway, yeah, Chief Factor loves the biscuit, and he asks Cookie if he can make him a clafutee. I don't know how to say this. A clafutee.

I googled. It's like fruit pizza. I don't know. It's like a set custard with fruit in it. Again, I was so lucky to be watching this with my wife who was a food writer. Helpful, yeah. And I just turned her. I was like, hey, what's it?

What's that Klafutti, please? Thank you. I actually wrote this down because I loved the line so much. He was talking about, like, a captain coming by to his house for high tea. Yeah. And he loves Klafutis, but he thinks that, like, the frontier is too savage. And he just goes, well, the captain loves a Klafutti, and I'd like to humiliate him. You're like...

Bitchiest thing anyone's ever said? I... Okay, possibly queer icon chief factor. I love these queens. Yeah. Because, I mean, the characters keep basically referring to chief factor. They're like, what kind of woman is he? He likes milk in his tea and he knows about the latest clothing fashion from France.

It's complicated because you're like, ultimately, he is the colonizer. or yeah so it's okay to bully him but like but also he's being bullied in a very particular way right yes yes anyway chief factor wants to humiliate a guest of his with a kofu tea and cookies like sure i'll make that so he makes it and brings it to chief factor's house where he's entertaining this captain as well as a couple native guests little Lily Gladstone is there, and apparently she is Chief Factor's wife, because her character's name, according to IMDB, is, wait for it, Chief Factor's wife. Kelly. There, there, I mean, yeah, I have some thoughts like, because Lily Gladstone is a Kelly Rackard company player, I guess, where she's appeared in a lot of her work.

And that was like, well, we'll get into it. That was one of the things where it's like, there's a lot in this movie that's left unsaid and like left for the view. were to sort of clean on their own. And she is like the character that I wish there had been more explicitly said about because it's like, yeah, she's married to Chief Factor. What does that mean? What were the circumstances? Like you can guess, but you just don't, you don't know. We don't know. Also in this scene, Chief Factor mentions that his cow gives very little milk and wonders if there's something wrong with her. So they all take a walk to see the cow,

which affectionately nuzzles cookies since he milks her every night and they've become friends. And tells her his little secrets. And he's like, I'm sorry. He's like literally her therapist. Yeah. He's like, I'm sorry about your husband and your child because we learned that originally three cows

were supposed to be brought to the territory. It was a cow, a bull, slash her husband and their baby, but only the cow survived the trip. Anyway, the cow knuzzles Cookie and everyone notices, and they're like, that was kind of weird. And then that night, Cookie and King Lou head back to steal more milk from Chief Factor's cow. And I'm like, don't do it when they have all these guests around who could see you.

But they do it anyway. Also, King Lou has been talking about opening up a hotel in San Francisco using the money that they've been earning. And their plan is to sell biscuits for a little while longer and then head south. So this is why they need to make another trip to the cow. But that night, as cookie is milking the cow, they are spotted by, and I believe this is chief factors, like, servant. the chief and the captain chase after cookie and King Lou with guns.

And also Spud from train spotting is there. Yes, yes, he is. I still haven't seen it. I still have seen train spotting is a huge, like... Yeah, the Scottish guy is in train spotting, and he's incredible in, I think, both things. The Scottish guy would be in train spotting. It makes a lot of sense. Okay, his name, Jamie, in real life, this actor's name.

name is Uyn Bremner. I'm not going to try it. You don't want to try saying Yuen? Scottish names are just like

really, really challenging for me. I can't. It's okay. I'm Irish. I can't. Anyway, he is there. He's also the one

who tells the audience about the circumstances of the first cow. So he's a very important character. Anyway, Cookie and King Lou managed to get away

for a while, but they get separated and they're both injured. Cookie ends up in a stranger's house. Apparently someone found him in the woods and brought him home to tend to his injury. Meanwhile, King Liu negotiates with a native man to take him down river in his canoe.

Eventually, Cookie and King Lou both make it back to their cabin, but it's not safe for them to stay. So they set off again. Although Cookie is lightly dying from his head injury and they're both being hunted by a young man who we've seen before at the fort. This is a man

who wanted to buy biscuits. Plant and pay off with this guy wild. Except it doesn't quite pay off. Just the fact that he comes back like you think the baby's going to come back. I always assume that it was him that does them at the end. I think it's safe to

assume we don't see that on screen. Basically this man wanted to buy biscuits but the other men like would always cut him in line and he never got a chance to taste the biscuits. And so now he's possibly going to shoot them over this biscuit vendetta, except it's actually that there's like a bounty on their head and he's like trying to collect on the bounty. I'm guessing. But we don't see this quite pay off because if he does kill them, it doesn't happen on screen.

Anyway, they stopped to rest, Cookie and King Lou. but they both pass out in the same position that Alio Shokap finds them in, finds the skeletons in at the beginning of the movie. So presumably they die shortly after this, either via the man who wanted biscuits or they just die from their injuries. We're not totally sure. Honestly, all things considered, I hope it is from the biscuit man, because I think I jumped to like assuming they died of a slower death. I hope that that's not true. Yeah. Yeah.

See, to me, I felt like I drew a pretty straight line to it being the biscuit boy. Mm-hmm. Because there's so much in this movie that's, to me, about, like, the various levels of being perceived as womanly. Of all these men, like, cookies, like, immediately off the bat, like, he's so soft. King Lou also, like, clearly doesn't fit in with, like, this very masculine society that they're living in. The chief factor is, like, again, like, seen as, like, effeminate. And this little, this little boy is, like, the big. good boy is to me he's so framed as like a fruity little guy and everyone clearly is treating

treating him that way so like how what better way to prove yourself to spud than to kill these to kill the other fruits you know yeah oh god it's almost like masculinity is a prison I wouldn't know anything about that also very similar themes are explored in the power of the dog so just saying. Caitlin's desperately trying to backtrack their own. All women look the same to you. No, I don't even know who directed the movie at first. I was just like, these are the same movie because they're about animals, question

mark. Anyway, anyway. The power of the dog is about a mountain. Yeah. But that's the end of the movie. So let's take another quick break and we'll come back for the discussion. Awuga, Awuga! We're going on tour in the Midwest.

Welcome to the Bechtelcast live. We will be covering, you guessed it, the Star Wars prequels on tour in the Midwest coming up at the end of the month, the end of August into early September. It will be chaos. Everyone has been asking, begging us, for years. Why aren't you talking about the Star Wars prequels?

Talk about Jar. Talk about Georgia. Fine. Fine. We'll do it. And we're going to be doing that in various cities in the Midwest, starting with Indianapolis. As a part of Let's Fest, that's on August 30th for a matinee, plus Jamie's solo show that evening. Yes, that is J.B. Loftus and her pet rock solve the problems of the world, and we will. And we certainly will. Following that. The very next day is a show in Chicago on Sunday, August 31st at 715. That's at the Den Theater. We're so excited to come to Chicago. Then we'll be in Madison, Wisconsin. That is going to be on September 4th at the Burr Oak Theater at 730. And we are rounding things out in Minneapolis, Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater at 7 o'clock on September 7th. We are so excited to

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And in fact, it may get even worse. For more judgment-free money advice, listen to Brown Ambition on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And we're back. It's Jane Campion, who directed the power of the dog. A different woman. But we're talking about first cat. Yeah, where do we want?

Maddie, where would you like to start? What jumps out to you about about this? film. I think what sticks out to me so much is this sort of like the stuff that it's all not to be like it's like jazz, but there's so much about this movie that is about, I think, masculinity and about colonization that is only really you're seeing white men. But there's all these like weird little pockets that the camera lingers or there's a moment that stays there that makes you think about it really hard. Like I think about, we were talking about like how Lily Gladstone only really gets this one second.

And then there's like this long moment where she and, I think, who is supposed to be, her mother-in-law or her sister, I can't. But like another native woman sit on the couch and just start having a conversation about what they're wearing. Yeah. And the camera just stays there for like a long time, like longer than I think most directors would leave it there. And it seems so intentional to me. And then yeah, there's all this stuff about like what this society of like mostly men, like hyper-capitalist, expansionist, colonialism. like what it's doing to the land and the people there. And there's all this stuff about like the line that will never leave my head about this movie is that it's something King Luce says early.

And he says like, history isn't here yet? Yes. Yeah. And Cookie's like, what do you mean it's old? I mean, the first time you see the cow, it's like, wow, this beautiful cow is coming in. Like here comes civilization. Here comes milk. And it's like, finally there's food.

And all the people are like, wow, food. but the first thing you see after you see the cow is there's like some native women on the shore like mortar and pestling some some grain right there like the foodways exist it's all there yeah and I think all this all these little subtle nods to what's going on or not like there's a lot of movies that would would be like oh like here's me paying lip service like like a league of their own or something where the ball rolls out of bounds and you see the three black women like waving from very far away like there's a lot of a lot of movies that do that kind of stuff. Or the, the, I feel like my go-to of, like, in queer representation is Josh Gad dancing with a man at the end of Beauty and the Beast. Oh, is that what they did? For three seconds. We did it.

Yeah. Oh, God, damn it. But, yeah, I think so much of this is, like, it is the point of it, like, these little, these little gaps. Yeah, I'm really interested to talk about it because it's like, I do agree that, like, where she lingers is very. very intentional and I know it's like such a part of her process to leave things unsaid and then there's like the yeah the tendency to focus on white characters in terms of like

who do we know the most about which I do think is true of this I guess with the exception of King Lou but I don't yeah I watched this movie twice and then by the by the end of the second watch I was like I think that like ultimately this movie is about like American capitalism finding its footing basically but this this moment where like indigenous food sovereignty is taking a very particular turn and what we see here i would also i was looking for um more i wasn't able to find very much but i'm really curious what indigenous american viewers think about this movie because i felt as if like i don't know like you don't it's not like kelly rickart's style to focus on like the peak of violence that comes with colonialism.

She's focusing on this like day-to-day normalizing of colonial ideas. And like through the Toby Jones character, I think it's like, yeah, there's a lot going on with him where he's treated like he's very effeminate. He's like, you know, people are teasing him for that. But you're also like he is unequivocally the colonizer, the person with the most power.

I mean, the second his gay little tea is, is threatened that he sends people to kill them. This is all about his tea party, basically. And you can tell, like, one of the moments that stuck with me is, like, the criticism I have, because it's like a big scene where the high tea is a big scene in the movie. And you don't know initially that there's going to be indigenous people at this part. He just is like, it's going to be high tea. We don't know he's married to Lily Gladstone.

You know, I think it's safe to assume that that marriage was, either forced or one of convenience for the survival of Lily Gladstone's people it doesn't seem like it's a marriage based on love which is interesting that like Lily Gladstone has been cast in that part more than once right because it it isn't it's a different part from Killers of the Flower Moon but I was reminded of like she's put in a similar position which is also by a white director right but that like you see that Toby Jones's character clearly thinks He's like being a good guy by welcoming indigenous people into his home and clearly does not care or doesn't understand that he is bending everyone in this room to his will regardless of race. Like Cookie is also bending to his well. King Lou is also bending to his will to like maintain what he perceives as reality because he holds the power.

And then, like, through our friend Miss Evie, he has the means of production. It's also about means of production. They don't own the means of production so it can never sustain. I don't know. Yeah, my, I think, big criticism of the movie is that we are watching white settlers actively colonize the land and claim its resources as their own, whether it's like the animal pelts that the fur trappers are taking or the it seems like there's a mine like a silver or a gold mine or something whatever the minerals the animals the food everything it's being stolen and we see the native characters on screen whose land is being stolen

but i feel like they're mostly treated as kind of set dressing yeah for sure we don't get any interiority for them at all we barely see them speak there's that scene where i don't know if it is lily gladstone's sister or friend and then she seems to be partnered with the native man who is a guest at chief factors house we don't know anything about the dynamics you don't know anybody's names name anything so it could have i mean the movie's not afraid to like take some time with scenes and like take some time to let you in on some information but it neglects to do that at the expense of not letting the audience know anything about the indigenous characters it just felt like a deliberate choice that i i couldn't find any i mean let me know if others found examples of

like her speaking to this point but it doesn't seem and also like from what i can sort of glean from her larger body of work that she is not like trying to shy away from indigenous history in Oregon in like the history of her own community but in like while so many of the themes of this movie tie back to indigenous Oregonians we don't get to know them and I'm like why was that choice made because it's not like she's avoiding the reality of it so I don't like yeah the people that she sort of decides to focus on yeah it was like why why and also because we find out very late in the movie that King Lou has spent time with indigenous communities enough to have a basic grip on the language.

Right. And you're like, okay, so even with the characters we've chosen to zone in on, King Lou has a history in these indigenous communities. Like, where, I don't know, yeah. I think, what does everyone think? Yeah, for me, I think, again, this comes back to the framing of it, where it's like you do start thinking about history and what we know and what we do not know about the past.

And we don't know about the interiority of all these people because they were, Wiped out by the other characters of the movie. And to me anyways, like, again, like, I don't think it's an unfair criticism to talk about this at all. But to me anyways, it seems like the interiority for the people is there, but, like, you're not, it is happening on the edges. It feels like, you've ever seen Big Trouble in Little China? No.

Yeah, I don't remember it super well, but. Yeah, so, like, the whole thing is that there's a movie going on in the background that Kurt Russell is not aware of. And at the end, they're all like, what the fuck are you doing here, white guy? Like, get out. Like, the other movie already happened without you. Yeah. And I think there is sort of this, like, why does you keep showing these people?

Like, I don't, it didn't strike me so much as, like, set decoration as did, like, I wanted to know more. And then you think to yourself, why don't I know more? And I also think it feels intentional that, like, King Lou isn't just another white person. he is also an immigrant that is not a you know not a colonizer in the same way right and yet it shows this like perniciousness of the idea of of getting on on side with the colonizers right like if you're if you are considered effeminate you can get on side by acting macho enough if you are not white and people are racist to him yeah like if you're not if you're not in the club you can try to

get in the club because look how nice it is to be there the the older native gentleman that's over at chief factors, it's like wearing a suit. You know, to me, so much of it is this sort of like, you have this pernicious drive to join in. Yeah. And how attractive it can look to people who would be on the outside of their wives. Right. And like the conclusion that the story comes to,

which is like unfortunately the general result is that if you exist on the margins of society in any way, chances are you're going to get fucked. And because, and we find that out at the very beginning, learning that, you know, in spite of their ingenuity, in spite of their skill, in spite of all of it, they're still killed. There will be skeletons soon.

Right. And Maddie, speaking to your point, like it's all the more tragic if they're sort of taken out by this other character who is aspiring to seem more masculine to succeed in the same system that will probably end up getting him anyway. ways. Yeah, they're not going to, you can't, you can't not be cut in the biscuit line if there's no biscuits anymore, kid. There's no one.

You could, I mean, did you get the recipe at gunpoint? Did you think? But also, it doesn't matter because he doesn't own the cow. Like the cow as the means of production is like fascinating to me. I, yeah, I think like, it seems like we're all sort of on the same page with, like, I think there was room in this movie to include at least an indigenous character. I know it's a very, like, broad, like, there's not a lot of central focus characters, even if she's being sparing in the narrative.

There was room for it, and I'm curious if there was any point in writing the script. I know this was also adapted, but if there was any point in writing the script where that was on the table, because it's also like, you've got Lily Gladstone. Like, why is she in the movie for three minutes? Yeah. As far as King Lou goes, I think it's, like, yeah, the more I sat with it, it's, I don't know, It sounds very, like, corny to put it this way and kind of almost undercuts the movie itself. But, like, King Lou is sort of buying into the idea of the American dream being accessible and finding out that it isn't.

And it seems like, I don't know if it's because of cookies. We don't really know, like, if it's cookies' experiences in Boston, if it's because of just, like, his personality, he seems sort of less inclined to buy into it. but of course it's so appealing and King Lou really believes in it and has the juice sort of like he has the ambition he has the plan and it works for a while I feel like like as often these kind of stories go where it's like it it works until you threaten someone too powerful and then you're cast out I think also in terms of like the two central characters being colonizers or immigrants or whatever I mean cookie feet. Big of way, it's obviously a Jewish guy.

This is like, I think, I believe canonical that he is a, like, I think in an interview, Kelly Reckhart was like, yeah, it's a Jewish guy. He's at West. So he's also like way outside of, like he, you know, there's no way his family got to Maryland that long ago. There weren't a lot of Jews in the early 1800s in America. We just weren't here yet. And so I think, I think that's also just an interesting thing in terms of like, yeah, like that,

that buy into the American dream. that is so appealing to these people. Absolutely, yeah. King Lou has a line at one point where he says, men like us have to make our own way. We have to take what we can when the taking is good. Jack Dawson vibes, first of all. True.

Yeah, basically the speech that Jack gives as he's eating caviar and toasting champagne on the Titanic. King Lou also gets on a boat in this movie. It's true. Oh, okay. So Rattatooey, Titanic, there's a lot. There's a lot going on. Basically, when the cow is on the ferry, she's like, I'm king of the world. Exactly. But, yeah, it just speaks to, like we've already touched on, the seeds of American capitalism that have been planted and are very rapidly growing.

and you have a ruling class who, you know, owns the mine or owns the fur company or, you know, whatever. And then everyone else who is either being actively colonized and having their land and resources stolen, or it's settlers who are trying to, you know, make it in this landscape, which is very difficult, if not impossible, because they have to resort to and I'm not against stealing from the ruling class but it's what they have to do and then what's the

there's a story where it's like they steal from the guy and then feed whatever I feel like it's kind of like a tale as old as time where it's like stealing from the rich person and then like feeding the stuff back to them and then they're Robin Hooding to themselves right it's the soap from fight club fight club it's like we're stealing like whatever the like liposuctioned

materials out of the garbage and making it into soap to sell back to it's kind of sweetie todd too sweetie todd yeah yeah yeah i feel does this happen in fried green tomatoes sure yeah well just the one time but yeah right right in any case so this is this is what they do and it's i mean i think a great idea but ultimately a doomed endeavor because the you know the rich guy finds out that he's being stolen from and is like kill those motherfuckers and then they die lying next to each other i keep thinking about the the point you're raising me about the means of production i keep thinking about because i'm such a visual thinker which again why i think so much of the movie to me is like it's so visual in terms of what it wants you to know for such a quiet movie uh for

such a talking movie. It's so visual. But I keep thinking about the, after they steal from the cow, the next time you see the cow, there's like a fence around it that's like so small. And like that's what, that's the only thing they know how to do. Right? Is make smaller and smaller fences. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. I mean, I think a lot of, and then the, the cow, I'll say it, she's the most interesting character in the movie. And like, I think like is a symbol for a lot of experiences where we don't really know the circumstances under, which Cookie or King Lou came to the U.S. We don't know if they were brought there forcibly.

We don't know if they went there voluntarily. We don't know if they went there because they were fleeing something. And I think that's intentional. I think like the characters like we're supposed to sort of, you know, headcan and what we think is going on. But the same goes for Evie the Cow. Because like I read there was a great pop matters piece about this by Caitlin Jurgens that came out around the time that the movie became available for streaming,

that sort of illustrates how this movie can be perceived as something about food sovereignty and how cows, as I often forget, are in invasive species in America to some extent. They are not native to the U.S. And their arrival in U.S. in the U.S. while it was not the fault of the cows, and I kind of like that we get the backstory that the cow has also endured. quite a bit of loss and trauma in order to be brought here for objectively a silly reason. Like, if you needed milking your tea that bad, don't colonize another continent. Just stay where you're from.

But, you know, the animal. Also, where's the tea from, dude? It's just like, come on. But, like, the animal also suffers tremendously in order to give a small convenience to a colonizer. but what the cow also can represent is like sort of the end of indigenous food sovereignty, which I feel like is, this piece argues that even though it is not explicitly stated and even though we do not get to know the indigenous characters, which again, I wish we did, but that it seems like this marriage could be seen as indigenous communities trying to deal with colonizers doing stuff like this, because like food sovereignty is defined, and I'm going to get in my bag. The 2019 book, Indigenous Food Sovereignty in the United States by Devin A. Mehesua and Elizabeth Hoover defined food sovereignty as indigenous communities retaining complete control of their food systems from production to distribution to sustainability.

And of course there are many, many threats to this. But the image of the cow and the milk itself is a threat to food sovereignty. It is bringing in something that is not native to the country. It is an animal that the indigenous community does not have familiarity with and does not have control over. And that result in any number of literal or cultural violence that could lead to stuff like feeling pressured into marrying a colonizer to preserve the well-being of your community. And so, like, I don't know, there's just, there's so much more going on in this movie than, you think yeah yeah it and it's subtle and it's there for the audience's interpretation in a way that feels like to me at least and maybe this is just like a personal preference thing but i wish there was

a little more commentary on it there's certainly recognition of it but i wish there was just a tad more commentary i think like kind of the most we get is as far as like explicit uh dialogue and whatnot there's a moment where spud from train spotting is talking to another man i think they're at a saloon or something but one of them says this is no place for cows if it was god would have put them here and then i think it's spud who replies then it's no place for white men either i mean i wrote that down too i feel i mean is that that to me feels like pretty explicit commentary on yeah but i don't know i i wish there was more which we could have gotten again with getting to know the indigenous characters who i believe are from the chinook nation but again

we don't get that yeah so i do like the friendship between cookie and king lu though i agree It's beautiful. It's a friendship between two men who bond over their struggle to make their way in the world. And they're both pretty calm, gentle men in this world that rewards agro behavior and violence. And we see all these scenes where like the fur trappers are getting into these brawls or there's that man with the baby who comes into the saloon. and other men are like taunting him. Everyone's inciting violence around them. And then you have these two men who we focus on.

And then others in the stories such as the biscuit boy who just wants biscuits and he never gets his biscuits. But the two who we get to know are Cookie and King Lou. And they kind of bond over being like gentle and not aggressive in a way that I really appreciate. Yeah, it's funny because like so much, yeah, again, maybe this is me putting my own little interest onto the film, but I think there's a lot of gender in here and so much of like what is perceived as feminine or not fitting in. Like, I mean, hell, milk, very feminine coated liquid. True? I shouldn't, I shouldn't have said it like that, but I did. But like.

I see your point. Yeah, but the idea between like, like there's another calm guy in town and it's my favorite guy we've not talked about, which is the crow man who's played by my dude rene albergenois from deep space nine my guy otto oh that is i always think of him as like that's a robert o'tman guy but he is a ds9 guy yeah he's also to me he's the deep space nine man and also the chef and the little mermaid yeah um but he's like also like living kind of hermody and like not brawling or doing anything and he only it just stares at them he just regarding them with suspicion which is all he can do because it is this weird like they put, like, when you are a softer gentleman,

it is very much like crabs in a bucket hours. Like you are trying to basically not be the low person at all times because you don't want to be faced with like the maximum ire of all the, the really macho guys. So I think there's, there's so much of that there, I think. So the fact that they have this beautiful friendship, I think, is so nice and I'm glad it's not romantic

like that they are just physically gentle with each other and emotionally gentle with each other without having to be necessarily sexual because it could just be like you know like it is possible for men

I think as far as we know to experience tenderness right like you know we had the male loneliness and this problem solved and we turned all those guys into skeletons it's true

yeah I I really love that scene between them at the end, even though you're like, oh, they're cooked, they're cooked, where they reunite and they just like embrace each other. And they're so happy to see each other. And like that there is just this inherent, like they see something in each other. It's a deep friendship that you're right, Maddie. Like it's I, you know, would I have been mad if they kissed? No. But I also understand like that there's so few representations of like two protection. who are men who know how to be friends who are affectionate with each other and that that can be I mean just like friendship is a life-saving force in general and that's the quote at the beginning of the movie yeah it's something like a bird is the nest a spider and its web men friendship as if like we find home and comfort and community in friendship right and it's like if they haven't if they hadn't been able to like handle and that feels like a weird word choice but like they hadn't been able to handle a friendship like that I feel like they would have been dead way sooner for sure yeah for

sure to your point mattie this is something we've talked about on different episodes I remember it most clearly from our lord of the rings episode where there is a tendency to see representations of platonic male friendship on screen and ascribe a romantic component to it And I understand that to some extent, but it also sort of erases the idea that men can just be platonic friends with each other and have like platonic tenderness with each other. And we rarely see it on screen, but I do really appreciate when it is represented because it does exist and it can exist. And it doesn't have to be romantic. And there are no implications in this movie that it is romantic. It's just that people often will ship characters together.

Yeah, I mean, the Fajosha's of one in society. I want to say, but yeah, I did appreciate the friendship that we see between them. I also think that there's like a gendered component to the product that Cookie is making and that his skill is a skill that women would typically have, especially in this era, and would be expected to have as far as like baking and he's able to make these delicious baked goods

that remind these men of something their mama used to make which is what one of the characters says because they are selling them at this fort that seems to be occupied by mostly men there are some women around but they're indigenous women that number one the story doesn't

care about and number two who don't have the recipe for all of these like english biscuits they have yeah they they they they think critically like they have the nostalgia recipes exactly for for these satellites yeah and that is what lets them earn any amount of money which presumably is lost forever in the tree it also speaks to this interesting phenomenon in which cooking and baking is so seen as like feminized labor until you are selling it in which case it becomes very masculine in society and it's a very interesting tension that like there is the there are all those beautiful little domestic scenes at king lou's house like when he makes the first biscuit king lou is again outside doing something manly he's beating a rug like beating the

dirt out of a rug and cookie just like gently leaves one of the biscuits on the like the sill for him yeah i love cookie and it is this very like it feels very gendered it feels very but then the second they're selling it it's like a cool boy thing to do because you're making money yeah but it but it's still king lou who's generally doing the selling like he's though you know he's kind of calling the shots i liked it's like a very subtle moment i don't even know if it was intended like this but there is like a moment where it seems like cookie allows like feels comfortable enough around king lou to show that he really cares about cooking too where where we see him with the like settlers who are very dismissive and abusive

towards him at the beginning like he can't say like I really care about how things take you know like that this is like a passion of his but it's like when we see him actually comfortable around someone and king blue is like he's like we got to start a business we got it because that's because he's an ideas guy right like he's a proto capitalist um entrepreneur and job creator And then you have like, you have cookie being like, I don't know, could be sweeter, it would be cool if we had honey, it would be cool if we had this stuff. And it's just like, I just, you know, even though they are endeavoring on what we already know is a losing battle, they're both comfortable enough to be passionate around each other, which, you know, it might not save your life, but it certainly feels better. Yeah, I just, their, their dynamic is so gentle and complimentary and, um, Yeah, you can, like, feel a real friendship. Going back to, there was an interview that Alyssa Wilkins ended with Kelly Rydgart around the time this book came out that I know that we, it reminds me a little bit just

in the dynamics, not the movie itself, in the conversation we had around the Vivitch in many, many minutes ago, another movie that generally, I mean, and I think more so than this movie focuses on white settlers and very much keeps indigenous people on the margins of the story. This movie, I think, does more, not that that's saying a ton, but I wanted to talk about because we got, I think, something that is shorthand on this podcast at this time, Robert Eggers being asked, like, how did you research indigenous culture for this movie? And he said, I went to the library once. And it was iconic that he admitted that, I guess. But anyways, go back to our episode about that.

But Kelly Reckhardt was also asked how she did research specifically for the indigenous language used in the film. This movie was my page on Power of the Dog up. So this movie was...

That's the movie we're talking about, right? It's all happening again. So this movie was co-written with Kelly Reikard and frequent collaborator Jonathan Raymond, who is is a white guy from Oregon, who is collaborated with her many times. And it was also based on a story that Jonathan Raymond wrote. Jonathan Raymond, to his credit, I guess, has written extensively about Oregon and historically

also does not shy away from indigenous history within Oregon. But as we've talked about, the movie doesn't explicitly address indigenous characters very much. So I was curious what their research process was. And I have an answer. Kelly Rickert is asked. There are people from First Nations throughout this film and the way the settlers treat them, which often comes across as ridiculous, is a big part of the story. How did you go about researching language and culture?

Kelly replies, there's a confederation of tribes down near Eugene, Oregon. It's called Grand Ronde. They had just opened this very beautiful museum that was in an old high school. Jonathan Raymond went down there to do research. They were a little wary about getting involved with us, as they should be. eventually out of our persistence and Jonathan's persistence, they opened up the library to us and then ended up hooking us up with a woman who made the cedar capes and hats worn in the movie, which was cool because we then donated them back to the museum. Then they helped us find

someone who spoke the language. It's a jargon, a mix of languages, the Chinook Wawa. Orion, who placed King Lou, had to learn that, as did James Jones, the Native American actor who takes them up the river. that was pretty tricky and I had to edit that language which is not really phonetic hopefully we didn't slaughter it too much sorry it's a long quote she's then asked is that language still spoken commonly or is it being preserved she responds there's not that many people left that still speak it but those who do are trying to preserve it we had some help with learning it it's a difficult language Orion really picked it up an interesting thing happened one night I realized that the whole sound crew because they were listening to that language constantly constantly had come to understand language. I think it's a bit like Spanglish, where it's a combination of languages, but the Grand Ronde ended up being incredibly generous to us, and that's also their canoe in the film. So, on one hand, we have two white writers composing this story that indigenous characters are important to, but also generally remain on the sidelines

of. On the other hand, I do really appreciate when white filmmakers bother to do their research and actually build connections and trust within indigenous communities. Because so often you get the Eggers treatment of going to the public library one time. And I think it's still very, very open to criticism. But I was at least heartened to learn that Kelly Reichard and her collaborator did genuinely seem to do their due diligence. And it also kind of like doubles down on, well, then why didn't they do more? Why didn't they build a character to express this culture through more? I don't know.

Especially because this was an adaptation, like you said, novel by Jonathan Raymond entitled The Half-Life, which has a story that has a much larger scope than what we see in the movie where there's like two timelines. Oh, interesting. The story is set in two different continents. Like it's basically the movie kind of zooms in and focuses on just a small span of time that happens in the story. And I'm not even sure the cow is in the book. The titular first cow is added?

That's what I understood when I was reading about this. but I might have misunderstood. I'm not totally sure. But either way, I do know that the scope of the story in the movie is much smaller than the novel. So the point is, many changes were made from the original source material. So a change that could have also been made is more focused on the indigenous characters. But I was going to point out that there's an even worse version of this, like, approach to research that we talked about recently, which is the Stephanie Meyer, or Myers, whatever,

approach when we recovered Twilight, because she did basically no research. No, she was strictly on Mormon vibes. Drove by the library and looked at it. So, yeah, it is encouraging that these filmmakers did more research than you might expect. but again. I just wish that they had like done more with it too. Yeah. Yeah.

Again, I don't think I disagree with that read of it. But to me it feels like they did, I think, an interesting job of, of leaving this big wide gulf between what you know about it and how much detail is, is present. Yeah. Which I think is maybe on purpose. And you could not like that as a storytelling maneuver. And that's a very fair criticism in terms of like.

like what stories we are allowed to tell and what we see and stuff like that. So wanting, I think wanting more of it is reasonable and fair. But I think it is an intentional thing to lead this sort of like lacuna of what's in the story. And yeah, because, you know, in terms of like the scale or the, yeah, like on the scale of research from instead of like going to library once, there's going to museum twice. And that's what they do. It's true. it's true it's true because they'd bring the capes back so two times right uh does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss about the movie i that's all i had no we talked about odo we did

we did we from ducase night it's really important to me to get them in there it's true so does the movie pass the bechdel test i don't think so no because even if because i i always i mean this is a whole other sort of large conversation about the use of subtitles where, you know, I don't speak this variant on Chinookwawa. I think most people don't because it is a language that is being actively preserved. The only time we really see women talk to each other is in this exchange we've referenced a few different times of Lily Gladstone's character who doesn't have a name other than wife talking to another indigenous woman who she knows, but we don't know what the relationship is, much less the name. And we also don't know what they're talking about. So, no, is my, I vote, no.

Right. And on top of that, even if we did know what they were saying, they're just like, hey, what's up? They don't say that much to each other. And it's mostly just, it seems like Lily Gladstone's character is gesturing toward like the bead work on the other woman's clothing, maybe complimenting it. We're not sure. But either way, I feel like you could. remove this interaction from the movie and the narrative would not change at all. So it's not a narratively significant exchange. But I will say, if nothing else, it is memorable because going back to your point earlier, Maddie, that it does feel worth mentioning that even though it doesn't really, it fit into how we generally

analyze movies on this show, that it does feel like Kelly Rickard does choose moments to linger on characters who we often see on the fringes of movies and again it's not perfect or even necessarily good representation but it is a it is i think noticeably different than how we see indigenous characters in colonial narratives treated where it's like their humanity isn't disregarded in the same way even through i think like simple interactions like two friends or relatives we don't know and that's an issue um but like two people having a moment of human connection in a way that I think most often we see indigenous characters treated as stereotypes, as stock characters, as, like, not as humans.

So, yeah. I was going to present like a fallacious, fun little argument. The cookie is so feminine coded that him talking to the beautiful cow would pass the test. But then I realize they mostly talk about her husband. Oh, that's true. That's true. So never mind. Well, here's some food for thought, some milk.

For thought, perhaps. A fry cake for thought. Does it pass the Bechtel test when a woman finds the skeletons of two dead men? Is the dog a woman? The dog might be a female dog. Does it count? Does it pass the Bechtel test when I watch the movie at home and say, first cow, would I see the cow? I think that's the closest I could get is women,

anyone of a marginalized gender screaming first, And then the cow saying moo. That's, that's text. That's text. I agree. It's interesting. I mean, in this, we've encountered this before. A movie with a titular woman character doesn't pass the back to the test.

And you hate to see it. And you hate to see it. It's the women all over again. Does the women not, I guess, you know what? It's all about men. It's the subtitle of the tagline right now. It's true. Yeah, that was the tagline.

For the original, from the 30s one now. And they weren't joke. I still really want to cover that on the show. Maybe that'll be a birthday. Oh, you've not covered the 30s one. Because it's a brain breaker. And I'll also say it's an enjoyable movie to watch. That movie rips in it real quick.

I have a fun fact about it, which is that she makes one joke about Adolf Hitler in it. It's one of the women. And I looked it up and it came out three days before Germany invaded Poland. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. They really left out with that one. And talk about food for thought. but yeah no it doesn't it doesn't pass the mectal test but again the be all end all of media metrics it's just what we happen to name our show after

so let's talk about the media metric that that is the be all end all the nipple scale where we rate the movie zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens and I just don't really know about this because there are some interesting things the movie is addressing and commenting on such as early colonial American capitalism and perceptions of gender and the kind of spectrum of masculinity and I do appreciate that we are following characters who are not displaying the typical toxic masculinity of the time which was beating the shit out of each other and killing each other. What about making biscuits and pulling a scam? That's feminism, if you ask me.

But the movie's disinterest in giving any interiority to the indigenous characters who are visibly present on screen, but just not given any of the focus. that the settler characters are is disappointing i think i'll give it two and a half nipples i'm not sure why i don't really know how to rate this movie but i do know that one nipple goes to one utter perhaps i was going to say the utter of a cow yeah goes to evy the cow okay one nipple i'll give to Rikart. I do want to explore more of her filmography. We should cover certain women. I feel like certain women was, unlike First Cowell, arguably, certain women was made for our show. Interesting. Maybe we'll do a month on the matrion that's

the women and certain women. Let's see, yeah, it's like, the women, let's get more specific. What about certain women? Maybe 20th century women. I don't know. Wow. way. Yeah. Yeah. So Kelly gets one of my nipples and then my half nipple goes to the four three aspect ratio, which was kind of shocking to me. Anyway, I'm having trouble with this. I guess I'll also go two and a half. This movie is, it's a tricky one because I think that my main criticism, even though like, I don't know, But the more we do the show, and I guess also just kind of the older I get, the more I appreciate movies like this, movies that have restraint, movies that are not stating the themes, right?

Like movies that force, I think, rightfully so, the viewer to challenge themselves or not, as the case maybe. But I still think that there's a thing of, like, too much restraint. And I really wish that there had been an indigenous character that we know something about. Like, I don't know. I just don't think that was like too much to ask. I felt like it was overly restraint to do all that research to. And I also think it is a generally good thing for white filmmakers to do, to both do their homework and contribute in whatever small way in preserving language in mainstream cinema, right?

Like, I think that that is a powerful thing. Now we have Chinoquala in a current movie that got COVID, so not hugely wide distribution, but a movie that is widely available. I think that that is a generally good thing. But it felt like a missed opportunity to me that if it was done out of restraint, felt overly so to not give us more insight. Because we see a lot of the factors that are affecting indigenous people without getting to know a single person. felt like a missed opportunity for me.

But like we've talked about, I think, that the friendship and all of the, and also just the general ideas that King Lou and Cookie represent of these two outsider immigrants trying to make their way in a world where it is colonial capitalism that is hostile to them, which I appreciate that there's like no if-ans or butts of like what ends up getting them it is um it is that and all the ideas that come with that including mattie like you were getting into this idea of hyper masculinity and like the person who killed them is like that's likely a huge factor in why they did it um also the biscuits looked good i'm not a huge like food cinema person like i bravely when i watch a studio jibly movie i'm like cut to the chase

It's a current, like, I don't, I can't eat this. I can't eat this. It's 2D. I can't. But, but I, um, I was hungry watching this movie and that's not nothing. Um, so I'm going to give this two and a half nipples and I'm going to give them all to, to my pal Evie because she really needs as many, you know, utters as she can, she needs six. We, we haven't gotten her there.

Oh, yeah. It's six, right? I actually don't know. I think it's four on, on, on, you know. Jersey cows, I think it's four. Speaking as the nipple slash utter expert. I was just Googling Jersey Cow and I was looking at them and I think it's four. Four.

Yeah. Okay. Then she's actually, she's good. I also was thinking about how many she. We give her out. Maddie, how about you? Oh, how many nipples do I give? Yeah.

I think, you know, I think the, the critique is very valid. But on the balance, I love this movie so much and I kind of think it's a masterpiece. I'll give it a solid four for. for one of each of Evie's beautiful nipples. Nice. Lovely. Thank you so much for joining us for this discussion. Thank you for having me.

Where can people find you online? Where can we get your book? Are you touring? Tell us everything. Oh, yeah. So I believe this is coming out after my book tour is over. Oh, no. But you can find me easily.

Maddie Lubchanski.com has all the information for all of my books and where I will be. and you can get the book Simplicity, which should be out now. I'm really proud of it. You should buy it and read it. It's really good, I think. And you can listen. I have a podcast called No Gods, No Mears, where I talk about Mayors with my two friends. You can listen to that at no gods, no mares.com.

Amazing. You can find us. We are going to be on tour at the end of the summer across the Midwest. We're talking to Chicago, Madison, Wisconsin, Minneapolis, Indianapolis. You can check out all those dates and grab tickets in our link tree. And you can join our matri-on-patri-on experience, where for $5 a month, you get two bonus episodes on a theme of either hours or your choosing, depending on how we're feeling that month. Including an episode on Ratatatoui. Yes, we did a rat-themed month, really getting important.

Yeah, rodent timber. Redent Timber, which I believe we observed in April. But don't worry about it. It was just urgent. It was really urgent. So go over there for my birthday picks this month. Pretty thrilling. And with that, shall we go milk the first cow that we see?

It's like getting lemons off a tree on the street. You're like, might as well. Why not? Yeah, it's there. As long as there's not a little fence around. method around the cow, I think it's fine to do. Yeah. Yeah. All right, bye.

Bye. Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of IHeart Media, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichten, edited by Mo LaBorde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrosensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information, about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast.

Awuga, Awuga! We're going on tour in the Midwest. Welcome to the Bechtelcast live. We will be covering, you guessed it, the Star Wars prequels on tour in the Midwest coming up at the end of the month, the end of August into early September. It will be chaos.

Everyone has been asking, begging us for years, Why aren't you talking about the Star Wars prequels? Talk about Jar Jar. Talk about Georgia. Fine. We'll do it. And we're going to be doing that in various cities in the Midwest, starting with Indianapolis. As a part of Let's Fest, that's on August 30th for a matinee, plus Jamie's solo show that evening.

Yes, that is J.B. Loftus and her pet rock solve the problems of the world, and we will. And we certainly will. following that. The very next day is a show in Chicago on Sunday, August 31st at 715. That's at the Den Theater. We're so excited to come to Chicago. Then we'll be in Madison, Wisconsin. That is going to be on September 4th at the Burr Oak Theater at 7.30. And we are rounding things out in Minneapolis, Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater at 7 o'clock on September 7th. We are so excited. to bring all of our spicy jar jar tags to bring our erotic fan fiction, our incredible reenactments, our cosplay, our scary cosplay, our exclusive merch, all the stuff you want from a podcast show from the Bechtelcast. It's happening and then some. And then things you just straight up didn't ask for. That's the promise. That is the Bechtelcast guarantee. You can grab your tickets to all of these shows at our LinkTree. LinkTree slash Bechtelcast. You simply do not want to

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