The Bechdel Cast - Flatliners with Matt McCarthy

Episode Date: September 28, 2017

Today is a good day to do an episode about Flatliners! Jamie and Caitlin invite guest Matt McCarthy, who enters the studio via scaling a building for no reason.(This episode contains spoilers)Follow @mccarthyredhead on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the president of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson.

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There's so much beauty in Mexican culture, like mariachis, delicious cuisine, and even lucha libre. Join us for the new podcast, Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12-episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of lucha libre. And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, emperor of Lucha Libre and a WWE Superstar. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you stream podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hi and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name's Caitlin. My name's Jamie. And we're having a

podcast today and every day about... Yeah. I'm uh well I'll tell you what it is and then I'll go into it. I'm having a day. Um the Bechdel cast is a podcast where we talk about the portrayal of women in movies why do we do this well it's just because a lot of movies don't portray women well but really it's just because just because we felt like it the bechdel cast is inspired by the bechdel test which requires that two women in a movie have names they talk to each other about something other than a man, and we'll figure out whether this movie passes later on. But first... But first, you're having a day.

My car got towed because I'm a fucking idiot, and I parked in front of a driveway that I didn't realize was a driveway because it had a big gate over it, and it just looked like a fence, and I didn't see that it was a driveway. So I got my car towed.

I still don't know where it is. I don't even know how to locate it. So I think I just don't have a car anymore. I'm having a day, and it feels like a good day to die. Whoa. Whoa. Segway. Segway.

Into the movie we're talking about, which is Flatliners. But before we get into it, let's introduce our guest. You've seen him on Conan. You've seen him on Adam Ruins Everything. He hosts a podcast called We Watch Wrestling. Matt McCarthy. Well, hello there. Hello. Hi. And thank you for joining us on this wonderful day that I'm having. Hey, man. That ain't your fault.

Yeah, it kind of was my fault. What's going to suck is I'm going to have to pay several hundred dollars to get it untoed. Is my mistake worth several hundred dollars? I don't think so, but that's how much it'll probably cost. I think it's worth it because after all, you just paid off your car.

That's right. Think of how many people just think of it as this month's car payment. Well, is it worth it to get my car? Yes, of course. I'm saying, is the mistake I made, should my punishment be several hundred dollars that I have to pay? Well, think of all the people that benefit from that money, either the county and the tow truck people. They have kids too. You just bought the tow truck person's family groceries this week. If my money was going to the Southern Poverty Law Center or to help alleviate homelessness in Los Angeles, fine. But it's not going to go to those things. Oh, I guess tow truck drivers should just eat out of the garbage can and live on the street. I understand. They can tow away dumpsters for dinner that night.

Is that what you're saying? That's not what I'm saying. Their daughters don't deserve to go to dance classes for Caitlin Durante. Nor. All right. Well, I don't like where this has gone. Sorry, you're having a bad day and everyone's ganging up on you. You did a good thing today.

You're participating in the economy. You're giving back. Yeah. You're literally giving back the money you made. Yeah. You get to go to an impound lot. Now I giving back. Yeah. You're literally giving back. The money you made. Yeah. You get to go to an impound lot? Now I don't get to. When would you ever get to do that? That's right. Maybe there'll be a meet-cute.

Now I have an experience. A meet-cute at the impound lot. Maybe I'll meet my future domestic partner there, because I'm not getting married ever. A lot of sexy singles hang out at the impound lot. That's true. Yeah. Alright right let's

talk about fucking flatliners okay cool matt when did you see this movie for the first time and what's your relationship to this movie well it's interesting because this is i was terrified of scary movies and tv shows when i was a kid well into into pre-teen. I know. Here's a good example. And excuse my language, but I want to get the quote right. When Michael Jackson died, my cousin called my brother and said, hey Michael, ask your brother if he still cries like a bitch

when Thriller comes on the TV. So the Thriller music video was scary to you. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of scary. Yeah.

It's spooky. I was so scared of, well, I was five when it came out. Yeah. Like the Hogan family Halloween episode where all three brothers have nightmares scared me so much I unplugged the TV. Wow. Yeah. So you saw this movie as a young person and then it made you very scared? Well, no, because this was, I saw this growing up.

I watched Flatliners alone and it scared the hell out of me, but it has like a happy ending. Like everything gets resolved. It was the first scary movie I watched that I was like, I'm not scared afterwards or tonight going to bed. Because it was like there was a resolution and everybody was. No one dies. Permanently. Technically. Everyone but Oliver Platt dies.

I know. What a wimp. Oh, God. I have a lot of. He was also. The Alfred Molina part that could have been. Went to Oliver Platt in this case. Yeah.

Oliver Platt was born 46 years old. I don't know if you can tell from that movie. So if this came out in 90, I must have seen it in like 91. So I was like 11. Jamie, what about you? When did you see it? Last night, 1 a.m. And I enjoyed it.

I liked it. It was fun. And I think a lot of it was fun for me just because I love watching the Schumacher tropes just roll on in. Do you mean like, well, I don't know if this is a Schumacher trope, but the production design in this movie, specifically the lighting. Yes. I think it's so fucking corny. Peak Schumacher. It like, yeah, it all is sort of lit like a high school dance.

Like a guy trying to be David Lynch. Oh, yes. It looked like, I watched it before I came here. And it was one of the scenes where Kiefer Sutherland is in his outrageous apartment with no furniture. And I go, it's just, it's a fucking music video. It's so music video, the whole movie. Well, they go to med school in an art museum in a museum that's under renovation which you think that they would address at any point but they

never do everywhere they go is either closed for the night even like the diner all the chairs are up but they're they're in there with one waitress ripping cigarettes well i assumed that this movie took place in some alternative timeline but then they make all these very of the moment references that it's like oh no they're just supposed to be in chicago what city are they supposed to be in someone says uh kevin bacon says that he was on the l or something right right right and that and then i was just like oh okay now i know but it could shout out to our chicago fans and by that i mean the movie chicago not anyone who lives in chicago yeah yeah people who really love richard gear's singing voice this episode is dedicated to you yeah and the way that uh joel schumacher styles it just looks like

like there's literally steam everywhere outside just the city is just taking a long fart for the entire but no one is there like it's totally a ban like i thought that they were going to address like oh this is chicago if if everyone left it was very strange well there's also the scene where julie roberts character is tending to that very elderly woman who's on her deathbed and they're the hospital that they're in like it looks like a like world war i II era. Yeah. It reminded me of... It's so archaic looking.

You know the hospital scene in Gone with the Wind? It reminded me of that. Like, just like a break. Right. Like, it's a makeshift hospital that got set up in the hallway of someone's mansion.

Yeah, it looks dirty. It doesn't look clean. Yeah. The production design is bonkers in this movie. But, yeah, I had not seen this movie either. I thought I did,

or maybe it's just because I... It had been recommended to me so often and explained to me like what the premise was that i was like yeah i know this movie i must have and then i watched i was like whoops i've never seen it um but i watched it twice generally i liked it except i hate the third act i hate how it ends the resolution is so stupid and i'll get into it later but it kind of ruined the whole movie for me the the way the third act unfolds. I think the whole movie is like, I don't know, it's like I enjoyed watching it, but it is very boring, where it's like, what could you learn by watching this whole movie that you couldn't take away by just watching the trailer? You know, like they die over and over. I remember the bits that were in the commercials of so many movies.

So as soon as Oliver Platt goes, I didn't go to medical school to help my classmates die or something like that, I was like, oh, that was in the fucking commercial. That was there. Big time. And today's a good day to die, of course. It's the best line in the movie.

And it's the first line of dialogue and it's all downhill from there. And then the last line in the movie is by far the worst. It's not. It's not. It's not such a good day to die. Turns out I was wrong. Yeah, and then just tuba music plays out there.

No, I like the idea. I like the story. But, I mean, the execution. I don't like Joel Schumacher movies. Shout out to my Phantom Heads. No. Well, I don't know how to, first of all. I like The Incredible Shrinking Woman. I haven't seen that. out to my phantom heads no i well i don't know how to first of all i like the incredible shrinking

woman i haven't seen that i've seen you know what right see this is your problem lost boys is good i just i just met matt downstairs and i did that was him i did what i do when i i don't know how to start a conversation which is uh bring up joel schumacher's the phantom of the opera yeah no the number 23 is probably the worst movie i've ever seen in my entire life. Oh, that one's very bad. That one's very... I forgot that was a Joel Schumacher joint. Phantom of the Opera, 2004. Cannot wait to cover it in a future episode.

Shout out to Gerard Butler. Should have been your breakout role. Too bad you cannot sing. That was really the only thing, that and everything about the movie. Anyways, shout out to my Schumacher heads. Joel Schumacher is mediocre in a very special way because he's trying like he's going for so much and none of it is like he's an ambitious guy i totally agree like he it doesn't pay off he put nipples he cannot put nipples on batman he put

nipples on batman which is maybe the most famous thing he's ever done. And you can tell he's trying to go for a David Lynch-y kind of vibe in this movie. Oh, yeah. And it just totally fails. But it fails spectacularly. Like the first, I can't remember exactly how many times, is it like six times total that people die in this movie? Either way, the first three just look like he took a clip from a discarded David Lynch short.

And then eventually you go to Kevin Bacon's and then it looks like, oh, his version of death is a screensaver. You know, like everyone's version of death is just like it's, oh God, it's bad. Well, why not use this opportunity to do the recap? Okay. Here I go. Flatliners, it's got a bit of an ensemble cast, but our main character is Nelson, played by Kiefer Sutherland, and he is a med student along with four fellow med school students

who go to, again, school in an art museum. In an empty building. And he's interested in seeing what might be out there after death like if there's sort of a life after death or what happens or where you go and he's interested in exploring this so he and all his med school friends basically they medically kill themselves for like first it's like a minute or a minute and a half or something like that and then they keep going for longer and longer. They're betting, too. Yeah, they're kind of like, I'll die longer.

So after they've been dead for a minute or so, then they revive them and they have to give them a shot of morphine and do their defibrillators and all that stuff. And they bring them back. And a shot of adrenaline. Oh, what did I say? Morphine. She's back. All right. Dope her up.

A lot of mouth-to-mouth. Only the sexy characters get to give mouth-to-mouth. It turns out that is a Schumacher rule. If you're not in the top three most fuckable characters per the story, you're not going to be given mouth-to-mouth. You're not going to have mouth-to-mouth administered to you. Oliver Platt, no way. He's not going to have mouth to mouth administered to you. Oliver Platt, no way. He's not going to receive over here.

No way. Everyone else, literally everyone else in the cast takes their shirt off at some point except for Oliver Platt. Except for Oliver Platt. Of course, it goes without saying that it turns out I've seen a lot of movies that Oliver Platt's in. He's a character actor. He's in a lot of stuff.

And you just don't realize that until later. I have a huge crush on him now. He's my favorite person. He's in a time to kill another schumacher shit show i don't know that i've actually seen any joel schumacher movies besides this the number 23 batman lost boys i haven't seen lost wow did you see it saying almost fire no i've seen almost no movies for someone who has a movie podcast falling down yes yeah did you ever see falling down no? No. Wow. What's it about?

What's it about? A good Falling Down? Like kind of a cool premise but like again poorly executed. Everything is wasted on Joel Schumacher. It goes without saying.

Well, back to Flatliners. Oh, I'll have to say Oliver Platt Alfred Molina easily could have played this part but Oliver Platt

did a great job. I'll go ahead and agree with that. I've got to make some charts with the Platt-Molina dichotomy. This is like opened up sort of anew. All the performances in the movie are good. Yeah, I think so.

Kiefer Sutherland plays the best Kiefer Sutherland I've ever seen. Kiefer, how does he have time to be a full-time medical student, constantly dying, and maintain his bleached roots. I love his hair in this movie. It's bananas.

Not even frosty tips. All frosty. All frosty. Jack Frost. Kiefer Frost, baby. Bacon's great. Yeah. Bacon shines.

Even Billy Baldwin, even I was like, okay. It's weird. I like how he's supposed to be like the hot man. Like, ooh, how hot he is. There's a lot of hot leading men with very different faces, which I feel like doesn't happen anymore.

I feel like everyone has the same face. Do you know Billy Baldwin's big movie after this? No. Sliver with Sharon Stone. I still have never seen it. Again, it's like the voyeuristic thing of videotaping sex and people in hotels who don't know they're being videotaped and that whole thing that's just the vibe he gives off he seems like he'd be taping like don't get into bed with this man right i love

love is not the word but the the look billy baldwin gives his own camera while fucking for him to watch later of him smirking at you're just like, smirking is this for at himself? Well, he's no doubt masturbating to these videos. He's like, yeah, what's up future me?

And also if he's okay, just from a logistical, obviously almost everything Billy Baldwin does is illegal in this movie. And it's sort of sometimes played for humor, which you're such a pervert. Pervert. And it's like Oliver Platt. But he also says, what, pussy marauder? Yeah.

Right. That's great. But Billy Baldwin, logistically, he knows he's filming this. He knows the angle, presumably, he set it up at. But it's still, it's always angled at his... It's missionary. He's like, he's looking at his own ass and face. Yeah.

Who... Right. What? It's not, yeah. What? He didn't really think that through, I don't think. No, I think he did think it. it's missionary he's like he's looking at his own ass and face who right what yeah he didn't really think that through I don't think no I think he did think it I think he just wants to watch it

himself fuck I think that and also you know it's like Kevin Bacon and Kiefer they like make amends in it

he doesn't he just kind of gets busted well that's that was a point I will bring up during the discussion so just hold are we still recapping yeah we're still there baby sorry sorry that's cute i screwed up the recap by explaining

something that happened in the movie and also a different movie so first nelson he'd kill himself okay good good simpsons reference. Thank you. I love the recap. I'm telling you, it's the best part of the episode. It always takes 40 minutes. Yeah, and I'm not sorry. So anyway, Nelson's the first one to die, see what happens after death, and then Billy Baldwin and his vision.

He sees a lot of naked ladies. His music video. It's a Robert Palmer music video yeah it's a robert palmer music video yeah and then julie roberts character dr manis is like i want to go next and kevin bacon's like no me and they sort of get into this bidding war and then but then they're like but we have a crush on each other right crushing and then kevin bacon's character goes next. He sees a screensaver. His name is David Labraccio, which when you read it out, it sort of looks like Lab Rat almost,

but with like C's. And I'm like, what a fun. Was that purposeful? That's funny. I don't know. 100% it was. And whoever, like that's like one of those moments

where you see something so cutesy that you're just like, oh, the screenwriter's jerking himself off right now. He's so fucking proud of himself. Right. He's like, people 30 years from now are going to see that and be like, oh my fucking God, what a smart guy. Yep, I sure did.

Oh yeah, and Billy Baldwin's character is Dr. Joe Hurley, and he makes you hurl. There you go. Kiefer Sutherland, he has no first name or last name. No, it's just Nelson. Just Nelson. And some of the other characters on IMDb are listed as, like, Dr. Rachel Maness, Dr. Joe Hurley, but he's just Nelson.

Just Nelson. Are we to believe he's not a doctor? Well, they're all in medical school. Can we call them doctors? They're not doctors. I don't know. I don't want to think about this movie. Also, the first scene Kevin Bacon is in in this movie,

he's scaling a building. Because he gets kicked out of school and he can't he's not allowed to use the door he's suspended for four months so he decides to rig like he had to go onto the roof of the building first to rig up the ropes to then like scale the building climbs out of a second story window they're having a casual conversation though he'll let you back in next semester. And Kevin Bacon's yelling about it. He's like, it doesn't matter. I'd do the same thing again.

Which is what? I don't understand. Why would he think that? He sort of intervened. Like a patient came in who was dying and they needed to save her life. And he sort of intervened. He was like, I'm going to do this. And I think he saved her.

But he was like out of line or he shouldn't have done it. He didn't follow procedure or something. You're out of line, Labratio. Yeah, so he gets suspended from school. Couldn't be further apart. Kether's on the ground and Kevin's on the building and then as soon as he lands it's like extreme close up, extreme

close up. There's a lot of weird tight shots in this movie. One of my favorites, well, let me just get through this recap and then we can talk about other stuff. Sorry, Kevinvin bacon just entered we've gone back about a half hour we've rewinded i'm going to fast forward again finally it's julia roberts character's turn and she goes manis man which sounds like man anus again there's that screenwriter drinking himself off and then the visions that they have as they have been dead for these few minutes they're trying to like make sense of them and they're

like wait i did see something i don't know what and then like meanwhile kevin bacon's he's like i'm an atheist but i saw something i don't know and then these sort of visions start to come back and like kind of haunt them and torment them And you realize they're all things from these people's past sins that they've committed or something that they feel guilty or responsible for. And they start to come back and torment them. And it's especially bad for Nelson because you find out that he bullied a kid to death. And he's like, oh, no. And so this kid keeps coming back.

Billy Mahoney. Billy Mahoney. I didn't even have to rewatch the movie today. To remember. Sometimes I'll see a kid in like a red hooded sweatshirt with the hood up and I go, Billy Mahoney. Well, here's the thing I wanted to mention. So remember when Nelson's in Kevin Bacon's truck? They're out in the woods and he's just sitting there.

And you see a little kid with the red hood up scurry by. Do you think that's a nod to the Donald Sutherland movie, Don't Look Now? Is that what it's called? Oh, interesting. And that little person scurries by in the red hood. Considering it's Joel Schumacher, and he's made a career of ripping off other movies, yes. I do believe that is the case. I was like, hmm, I wonder.

Here, shout out to all my phantom you know he's like how funny would it be if keifer sutherland and we did this like visual nod to a donald sutherland movie that's the god how annoying for keifer so i can't make one fucking movie yeah so i had i had a note in in my movie notes to make a point to look up later. I just remembered. It says, Billy Mahoney today, hot or not? And I just did the appropriate Google searches. Answer, not.

But he's doing very well. He is a principal and portfolio manager at Argyle Capital Partners. Hey, good for him. And he still uses hair gel. And he's in LA. Let's call him up. Let's call him. Let's call his guy up.

Billy Mahoney. What's his real name? Joshua Rudoy. Boy, can that kid wield a hockey stick. Yeah. That's fun. Yeah, so this kid beats the shit out of Keeper Sutherland a few times. In the most Evil Dead 2 way, where it's just, he finally gets him, and then it's just slapstick fighting and like spits in his mouth.

Spits on his face with all the loogie. In his mouth. Yeah. That was the only point in the movie where I had to look away. That was an extended loogie. Yeah, it was gross. So then this kid's tormenting him and you find out it's because he bullied him and he fell out of a tree and died hit him in the head with a rock and all the everyone else is like trying to yeah

everyone else is like sort of taking measures to correct the wrongs that they did in their past that are haunting what's great is when the when billy mahoney dies like the two kids that are with keifer are like oh dude what the fuck you threw the last rock they also like you did that dude and they it paralyzes that dog and the dog champ champ it's like fun how like half that out a lot of these plot points are because the only reason julia roberts thinks that it's her fault that her dad died is because her mom turns to her and is very dramatically like, it's your fault! Right. Like her whole life she thought she killed her dad by walking in on him in the bathroom.

But yeah, but it's like that doesn't make any sense. He runs out of the bathroom. And I mean, I get from a five-year-old's perspective how that would feel like. It was. Well, also mom flat out said it. So that helps so he's like well i have to make amends and he thinks that the only way to do that is to go back under this is nelson nelson's like yeah i gotta go kill myself again because billy's also dead

so how else is he gonna make amends i think he does this with the intention that he'll just remain dead but then all his friends are like oh no he's killing himself again we gotta save him but in his like afterlife because he's dead for like 12 minutes and in that time he manages to like the roles are reversed now he's up in the tree and he falls and that somehow makes everything better which is why i hate the ending of this movie it doesn't make any sense to me. Anyway, he falls out of the tree. It makes sense to me, I just don't like it. He's like, no, you know how it feels. But then, like, how does that somehow absolve him of any guilt?

Like, it just, I, I, I don't know, I hate it. Well, I feel like the only absolving of guilt that makes sense of all four of them is Kevin Bacon. Right, because he actively goes. He's the only one who actually goes and makes an amends yeah right but and but in this it's like almost sort of to julia roberts well we'll get to this but like her resolution has like a weird magical element about it where she finds out new information that doesn't i don't know like none of them really line up with each other i guess that like billy baldwin's abandoned and that's good. Right. Well, he's still kind of fucked up, even in the climax.

And it's like, nothing's been resolved with this guy. He's just stewing in his shit now. Well, I don't think he deserves any sort of atonement. Well, because he doesn't... He'll continue to do it, I think. Probably. Whether or not he had participated in this at all, well, she comes to visit him, the fiancé, because of how disturbed he was on the phone.

Yeah. So that does instigate it. But he just gets busted. Right. And she breaks up with him, which is punishment. But he... He doesn't do anything to make it right. He doesn't.

No, he doesn't. Do we even see him, like, delete the tapes or anything? No. In fact... No, I think he. Do we even see him delete the tapes or anything? No, in fact, it's not clear that he actually feels guilty for anything he's done. He's just mad he gets caught. Yeah. He even says to her, it's not what you think. It's like she thinks you're fucking other women and videotaping it without their knowledge.

Right, and then she's like, yes, it is. Slam. But it's not just that. End of Billywin's arc so videotaping women during sex without their permission or knowledge is horrible and i'm guessing it's probably a crime i don't know for sure yeah yeah so it's a crime and it's also just morally repugnant but also the scene where the different women are repeating back things that he has said to them right there's one that you're like there's. Right. There's one that you're like, ooh. There's a few.

There's one where she's like, you said we didn't have to do anything. We can just lie here in our underwear. We can stop whenever you want. I was like, oh, so he's also a rapist. Oh, great. He's gone above and beyond just videotaping women. Also, where the fuck does he live?

Do you remember that scene where it's in the hospital and then they pan up and Billy Baldwin's fucking? Right. None of the locations make any sense. That's never called back to because like later on it looks like he just has

a two floor apartment but there is one shot where you're like watching something happen on the lower floor and then it pans up and he's fucking a lady and filming it.

It's very confused. Yeah. It's like is this but then you see is it like his dorm? A later scene where he's going, he's entering into an apartment building from outside.

Right. And that lady's sort of like harassing him. Are you a model? Yeah. Because he's so hot. He should have been like Kevin Bacon. He forgot to bring his grappling hook. He could have just scaled the building up to his room.

It is funny. I never thought of it until right now, but there's almost foreshadowing that Schumacher will direct a Batman movie. Yeah. In that scene of Kevin Bacon just cascading down the building. Well, not to bring it back to Phantom of the Opera, however. It is in the early 90s when Sir Andrew Lloyd Webber decides that he wants Joel Schumacher to direct his Phantom movie, even though it doesn't come out for 15 years.

So I enjoyed taking a step back and watching all these fog machine scenes everywhere. The drugstore is foggy. The bar is foggy. The street's foggy. The hospital's foggy. And then see Andrew Lloyd Webber. This is an excellent fit.

This guy gets me. Well, mediocre, no subtlety, match made in heaven. Do you remember that scene? It's right after Nelson has been revived. They're in this sort of alleyway. They're constantly in alleys. So many alleys.

Well, no one lives in this city. Chicago. Yeah. Do they go to Northwestern? I don't know where they go to school anyway not important at one point i thought details don't matter in this movie at one point they were in a capital looking like in front of the halloween parties in front of a capital looking building so for a while i thought they might be in dc but then about an hour and 10 minutes and you're like oh i guess

this is chicago right yeah but uh so he's in an alley and he sees Champ for the first time, like dragging his legs around. And they're in this alley with like these like neon green faces like painted on the wall, like these murals almost. And it's like these like spooky faces. And there's no other imagery like that at any other point in the movie. So it seems like really random and out of place that those are there because like that imagery just doesn't match up with anything any other point in the movie. So it seems like really random and out of place that those are there because that imagery just doesn't match up with anything else that's in the movie. There's always a red light somewhere in the

background in every scene. I'm just like, who was your production designer? What were they thinking? Probably Joel Schumacher. He's just like, hey, do we have a bunch of spotlights and a fog machine? Don't worry, I've got this.

Getting into the discussion of the things that we talk about on this podcast, obviously have to mention that Julia Roberts' character, Dr. Rachel Maness, a woman in STEM. But also, no one in this movie is a doctor. Not officially. But you do see her. So the first actual point i wanted to make is that i would argue that her character plays just as active as a role as each of her male counterparts so she's doing every time they're killing the person and then bringing them back

to life she's playing an active role and doing different things administering different shots of adrenaline or i would argue it's morphine. Or, you know, resuscitating them and using the defibrillators, which I thought it was defibrillator. It is defibrillator, which sounds stupid to me. Defibrillator. Well, it does seem like her character, and Kevin Bacon calls this out in a vaguely sexist but somewhat clear way in one of their scenes.

It does seem like she's the most respected of the group. She and Kevin Bacon seem to be the alpha doctors in the group. Yeah. Whereas it's clear that she's essential to the operation from moment one because Nelson's like, I can't do it yeah he's like i need you to handle the injections and the iv so she plays a crucial role in the story the problem is when you add up all of those main five characters her role means that only 20 of it is something a woman's doing and then 80 of it is dudes it's major tokenism yeah and interestingly because the reason we're doing this movie now is because there is a,

it's not a remake. Apparently it's a sequel. It's a sequel. Because Nelson's in it. Right, because Kiefer's back, baby. I hope he's got the same hair. And there are two female leads in the new one. It's Ellen Page and Nino Dobrev,

a.k.a. Vampire Diaries lady, a.k.a. Degrassi lady for you big Degrassi. I thought there might have even been three. There's also Kiersey Clemons. Oh, I didn't know that. So as far as I can tell... Also a guy from Dirty Dancing Havana Nights. Diego Luna?

I know him as the guy from the Star Wars movie. And also... I think he's better known for Dirty Dancing Havana Nights. Yes, I'm so sorry. And he's also in Y Tu Mama Tambien. But I'm pretty sure you see his dick.

You see his dick. Mostly known for Dirty Dancing Havana. Right. You do see his dick. So, as far as I can tell, the five main med students

in the sequel, two of them, I think, are men and three of them are women. Hard to say, though. I couldn't figure out which character

is doing which thing, so I might be wrong about that. Either way, it seems like there will be a little bit more of a gender balance in this sequel. Right. Hey. But Julia Roberts' character is majorly tokenism in the main ensemble. It does seem like there are a proportional amount of women at the medical school because we see Julia Roberts talking with there's another doctor who I think has a name, which I think is Edna. We see her talking to Edna a couple of times. And then the professor that keeps busting in and saying, you're all going to get Fs.

Everything's riding on this. I have two A's. You're in competition with each other. Rip open your cadavers. Do not be distracted by the artwork on the wall. Don't put on gloves. No one puts on gloves. But she's in charge.

It doesn't seem like she's doing a particularly good job, but she's in charge. So there are female figures, but it's just not accurately reflected. I'm on the IMDb page right now because I was trying to figure out, I was listening for it in the movie and I wasn't sure if I missed it, if the old woman that Julia Roberts talks to a number of times has a name. She does not. She is credited as terminal woman. Also, feels worth mentioning that 11 different actresses are credited as Joe's woman.

Oh, God. From that scene up the staircase. What a horrible way to frame that. Horrible, yeah. Well, the woman in one of the very early scenes that Julia Roberts is talkingts was talking to asking her what her like near-death experience was like she does not have a name but the elderly woman that she talks to does have a name and she names her it's mrs amsler is this the woman who dies yeah oh she's credited as terminal oh weird well julia roberts calls her she's like you're doing better today mrs amsler i knew she called her mrs something yeah yeah because i assumed that she must have at some point.

Okay. Yeah, she does. Well, that changes things. The doctor she talks to does have a name. Yes, Edna. She calls her by name as well.

Another thing about Rachel Mann is that everyone's trying to fuck her. Definitely. Yeah. Maybe not Oliver Platt, but...

But like, would he turn down the opportunity? No, it would be an honor for him. But early on. He's almost not in the movie. He's the only one of the five who does not ever die.

He does not participate in the movie. He's dressed like Harry Potter for the whole movie. He's wearing the same dumbass scarf. He says pussy marauder. He does a lot of exposition. Like he's there for exposition because he's literally recording major plot points into a tape recorder for a great portion of the movie.

Billy Baldwin tries to pick her up in the first scene. He's like, are you dating anyone? Just open up and maybe we can get together for some serious thinking. And later you're like, oh, she probably knows he's engaged. Right. He's engaged. So no wonder she's... The woman that we see him having sex with in the beginning that he's engaged right yeah he's engaged yeah right so no wonder she's the woman that we see

him having sex with in the beginning that he's videotaping is that his fiance or no that's a different woman no because he's videotaping it right and then oh he says something like i gotta get one last thing in before i get married and then all the plat whips out pussy marauders. If that's not a screamo band, I'll... 100% has to be. So that happens. And then whenever Nelson's about to go under for the first time, he asks Julia Roberts for one last kiss. And then the next morning after he wakes up after having flatlined,

he's in his bed, she's taking his pulse, and then he says something like, God, you're beautiful. And she sort of moves away from him, after having flatlined. He's in his bed. She's taking his pulse and then he says something like, God, you're beautiful. And she sort of like moves away from him and he like grabs her and pulls her back. He's like,

I bet 24 hours ago you didn't think you'd spend the night here. And she's just like, ugh. She said something like, you were lucky last night, Nelson. Don't push it.

And then walks away. But it's just like, what a weird way to interact with her. It seemed like they had slept together. Yeah, it seemed like they they had slept together yeah it seemed like they used to be a thing there was also a moment after he flatlined when they're like driving to the bar where she like touches his shoulder there's i feel like

it's at least implied that there's some sort of history there's history but maybe that she doesn't want it to continue right because then later she sleeps with Kevin Bacon's character. Right. She fries up some bacon. I think I sanctioned that relationship. I think that if she's going to... They both have the best hair. Exactly.

Good hair. And they're both like the most competent of the group. So it makes sense. Best doctors, best hair. Yeah. It makes sense. Just a bunch of senior superlatives. And they've got all of them.

That's right. Yeah. Med school super. Just a bunch of senior superlatives. And they've got all of them. That's right. Yeah. Med school superlatives, baby. Do we feel like we understand why the group is pretty adamant about Julia Roberts not doing it? That's a good question. Is it because she's a woman and they feel protective of her? Right. Or what?

That was the implication that i got i mean but again with the exception of oliver platt who doesn't want anyone to die at any point but is also very willing to be around because you know we need exposition sometimes we've got to shave off minutes on this movie even though it's still an hour and 55 minutes long but it feels like they don't want her to go under because they have a crush on her. And I feel like Kevin Bacon almost implies that at one point. Yeah. See, with Bacon, I can even see it with Kiefer, too.

Because it's like, he's still in love with her. Kevin Bacon's currently in love with her. And Billy Baldwin's just a fucking douche. Don't just try to film anything that moves. Billy Baldwin also, I love that he's like oh i uh yeah god i'm a filmmaker i have a camera and it's like oh yeah the camera you use to commit crimes and he's not even good at that job like there there's a million times in the movie where they're like joe film and he's like oh yeah i was like why else are you here he should take some d

and his angles are stupid. We already pointed out, like, the way he captures himself from, like, bird's eye view. It's like, that's not. Who wants to recapture that sex scene? And he's only filming for, like, four seconds at a time. And it's always a slow zoom so they can fade into a screensaver. But back to what you were talking about there was a conversation between a dr rachel manis and a doctor a david lab rat they're not doctors med school student david

labraccio yeah this is after billy baldwin has flatlined julie's like i want to go next i keep getting pushed i want to go and then like kevin bacon outbids her basically. He's like, I'll go for longer. And she's kind of mad. She storms out and he like catches up with her. And she's like, no one seems to want me to go under. I don't need your protection. He's like,

oh, well, I just decided that someone is smart and driven as you are. And incredibly beautiful. That part was just like, oh, he was so close. Yeah.

And then he was like, he's like, it makes the rest of us nervous, which I think, I don't even know if it's an implication. It's like pretty straight up being like, we don't want you to go under. We got to protect you. You're the woman. You're hotter and smarter than us. Even though she's the one who keeps being like, I want to go.

Because this is her passion. She's interviewing people to figure out what's happening after, if they have a near-death experience. She wants to know. And she wants to get that firsthand experience, and they're all just like, no. And Kevin Bacon even says she gives the best reason for wanting to do it. And she totally does, because Kiefer says a couple different times, like, we're going to be famous. Right. I'm going to be on 60 Minutes.

Yeah. Yeah. The most prestigious thing at that time. A lot of people close to me have died. I want to see if they've gone to a better place right and if you believe in that sort of thing sure that's a good reason to flatline yeah i think she does have the best reason yeah because keifer i don't know that anyone besides keifer offers a reason like bacon says well i'm the control subject so i'll go under because i'm they kind of bully him for being an atheist he's like oh yeah does the atheist suddenly believe in god

well i think this is like it's not an atheist joint it's a schumacher joint there's a lot of heavenly uh imagery sure i guess or what he would perceive as him. But anyway, so that conversation when he's like, oh, you're just so smart and driven and incredibly beautiful. She gives this look that's like, okay, I'll take that compliment. And then she changes the subject. And it's just like, no. And then walks off into the mist. Right. The fog machine's just off camera.

Who made more money? Like, was more money spent on paying Oliver Platt or buying fog machines just off camera who made more money and like was more money spent on paying oliver platt or buying fog machines i feel like it was probably very close for this movie the other main point i wanted to make about this movie is that julia roberts character is the only one who's like sin from her past that comes back to haunt her is something that like happened to her rather than something that she did like the other ones with nelson it's uh billy mahoney he killed him accidentally or not probably not accidentally because he was bullying him and throwing rocks at him certainly manslaughter right yeah yeah uh and then with kevin bacon's character he also

bullied a child win Winnie Hicks. Winnie Hicks. Who is thriving? Yeah, she's got a huge house and a big greenhouse. We should talk about her really quick. That was an interesting scene. That was a scene that I was a little bit, it was like one of those scenes that I feel like we come across very frequently. I was like, oh, this scene could have passed the Bechdel test so easily, but it doesn't.

Where her daughters are the whole time and has a name, but never has a line. Wait, what was the daughter's name? Sheila. Oh, cool. She says a couple different times, Sheila, go away. Go away. I'm trying to talk to Kevin Bacon. And Sheila never responds, but she keeps entering and exiting the scene.

But that, I don't know. I like that character of Winnie Hicks. But I think that has a lot to do with the fact that Kevin Bacon's resolution is really the only one that's actually satisfying of the whole cast. Right, because he's the only one. So going back to what I was saying earlier

is that hers is the only passive one where something happened to her. She sees her father and we later find out that he was, I guess, shooting up heroin. Right. And then because she sees that.

It's very common with a lot of the Vietnam vets coming back, man. They couldn't deal with what happened in that goddamn hell hole. It's all your fault. And they gotta do heroin

or maybe, hey, maybe it was morphine, my favorite drug. Paro-what-might-be. All-purpose drug. Intravenous drug user. You can use morphine for anything.

You can use it to bring you back to life. You can shoot up and have a great time with it. Anyway, so he's shooting up heroin. She sees it. I guess he feels guilty that his daughter witnessed, so he goes outside and kills himself, which that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but maybe. Well, clearly the gentleman had problems. Sure.

Who knows what happened when he was in that denang pit of hell but it's weird that that like the whole sequence i mean and i guess you can sort of narratively write it off of like well it's a child's recollection it's probably not really accurate and it's also we only see like mom in the moment say it's your fault that was probably her whole life after that right being driven in her head by her friggin Al-Anon mom who's just like you did this yeah well the thing with that is

it means her redemption is passive also like she just has to go and watch the scene unfold a little more and then she just hugs her dad and then everything's fine. But she gets a chance. Because she's weighed down by this guilt,

so he gets to relieve her of the guilt. She gets to forgive herself, and she gets to forgive him. And that's fine. My point is that the choice was made. She was the only one who had something happen to her passively. Is it because she was a woman? Is it a coincidence? Hard to say, but either way, the choice was made she was the only one who had something happen to her passively is it because she was a woman is it a coincidence hard to say but either way the choice was made so that the only female character of the main bunch had a very passive sin and then redemption so it's just sort of perpetuating this idea that like the woman's the woman's sin was feeling guilty well and also

like to reduce it even further the main female character has serious daddy issues. That is something we've seen a hundred thousand times, and we don't see anyone else's parents referenced out of the main cast. Thank you for verbalizing it, I guess, in that way, because I was sort of, at the end of the movie, I was like, Julia Roberts' storyline is the only one that has a sort of magical resolution where Kiefer, Billy, and Bacon. Yep, did it. Kiefer and Billy and Bacon. The amazing spinoff series that ran for 11 seasons afterwards. None of their resolutions, however satisfying or unsatisfying, resulted in them receiving any new information.

It was them somehow dealing with information that they already had and then having to where julia it's a reveal like it's a reveal that her dad was a drug user definitely which makes it again passive so it's just like i i like and it throws a wrench into the logic of the movie right of you know like sort of the like, well, you've got to atone for the bad things you do in life. But Julia Roberts didn't do anything bad. But she somehow receives a message from the beyond that, no, your dad was addicted to heroin. Which is what she wanted. She wanted to make sure her dad was okay and that she didn't – she was weighed down by this guilt.

And then she was able to contact him and him be like, you didn't do anything. It was me who did it. Right. Right. I don't know. Like, the spiritual elements of this movie are kind of all over the place and confusing to me. Oh, definitely. Like, there's no rhyme or reason to, like.

And it's weird, because I feel like Rachel's storyline is the one that really introduces the weird, like, wait, what are the rules here? And it is also like three of them. It's just shit that happened when they were kids. And so they just they're still kind of adult children. They can't process what happened. Whereas Billy Baldwin is currently a piece of shit. And he's the only one who's not making it right. Yeah.

He doesn't do anything. He's a rapist and a sex criminal and there's that scene where like they all start to realize that each of them is like being tormented by the ghosts of their past and uh he's tormented by the ghost of christmas present yeah but um billy baldwin reveals he's like yeah these women iotaped them. They didn't know about it. Women be complaining about my sex crimes. And Oliver Platt's character is like, oh, you pervert. And then Kevin Bacon doesn't even address it. He moves on.

He's like, how about you, Nelson? Who are you seeing? And he's like, oh, this kid, Billy Mahoney. But like, he just changes the subject after Billy Baldwin has revealed that he's a fucking sex criminal and everyone's just like, oh, well, let's move on. Well, that's part of Billy Baldwin's thing where it's like, again, like a weird dissonant, like sometimes it's played as, well, yeah, this is his major wrong as he's wronged all these women. He's a womanizer is kind of what the. Right. It's never it's never stated or even implied that what he's doing is a crime.

But then other moments, it's like played for humor of like calling a sex criminal a pervert and then moving on to the next plot point is obviously very irresponsible. And he's sort of, I feel like, presented along with Oliver Platt as like the goofier of the characters. Right. along with Oliver Platt as like the goofier of the characters. I mean, you could argue that the fact that this is what's tormenting him is the movie's way of saying like this, he did a bad thing, but he's hardly punished for it. And he doesn't do anything to redeem himself or try to like make any amends. He does get broken up with by his fiance,

but he doesn't even seem that upset about it. Like eventually. And basically I want his dick to stop working that's the only way i think so does that make his instead the actor stopped working matt's stroking a cat right now true True. Yeah, well, does that mean that there are two resolutions that are passive? If Billy Baldwin doesn't do anything and things just happen to him? Well, he doesn't even really get a resolution. Right, because the other three at least...

Not that he deserves one, but I'm saying... He doesn't do anything... Well, he doesn't do anything to deserve one. But something does happen to him. He does get dumped. And I'm not saying that that's a fair punishment. It certainly is not. That should be step one of a series of punishments that end with him serving jail time who knows maybe she

went and called the cops afterwards oh let's hope that poor that girl oh man and and they go the narrative goes out of the way to be like she's a student she's working hard she's she you know she lives far away and you're like okay cool she's She seems like a cool lady. And then she, you know, they do a little bit. I'm pretty sure she has a name. Yeah. God, I hate that that's the fucking bar. Yeah. It's like, oh, she has a name.

And they said she went to school. So good for them. They did it. Feminism. Right. I like Billy Baldwin's character's line when he's like trying to pick up Rachel. Because he says something like, these rumors I've been hearing about you they're not true you're not some cold frigid woman I bet you're very warm and it's like well and and that's another amazing uh blockbuster recurrence

of like oh she's she's got goals and she's good at something. She must be a frigid bitch. Oh, you know what I was going to say? You know what dawned on me is the fact that her sin, more or less, is totally passive. She didn't do anything. Because I feel like the Hollywood logic is you can't have the female character have done anything wrong because then the audience would not forgive her and just see her as a bitch the whole time. You know what I mean? Interesting, yeah. Whereas like the men can have the redemption, but the woman, it's like, oh, no, fuck her. She fucking did that to so-and-so.

Because I feel like we're socialized to just think that like women have to be perfect little angels all the time. They can't make mistakes. Because I remember I did a commercial once be perfect little angels all the time. They can't make mistakes. Because I remember I did a commercial once, and the actress was playing my wife. And the director was like, you have to smile throughout the entire scene. Otherwise, the clients are like, she's being mean to him. Oh, Jesus. Right, that type of bullshit.

I'm never going to smile again. And it sort of plays to a virginal kind kind of or like whatever spiritually virginal like she's untainted and it turns out that's an amazing point yeah oh god right fuck yes because if anything it would have I mean I'm not saying this in any other way of like it would have made sense

if she had also bullied like a girl when she was growing up there's almost no coming back from that from a character standpoint of looking at like, oh, God. Even with the scene, if it was her and Winnie Hicks, I bet the Hollywood view would be like, people still won't get on her side. Even the lovable Julia Roberts.

Because, yeah, with Kiefer bullying. Kiefer killed a kid. Killed a kid. And he's the hero. It was hard for me to, by the end of this movie, I was not on Kiefer's side. But I feel like you are supposed to be still. Definitely. Yeah.

But ultimately, it's like he's doing it to himself. He's literally beating himself up over it. Yeah. You know. But it's a delicate thing. Because if Winnie Hicks hadn't been so well off would we be so quick to forgive kevin bacon like if her life had been a shit show yeah you'd be like look what you did to her right as opposed to you could even make the argument well you instilled her with character and you know that

she overcame it blah blah blah everyone in this movie besides julia roberts like all the male characters get off too easy. Because even the end scene with Billy Mahoney after Kiefer Sutherland as an adult gets crushed by a tree, comes up and he smiles. Well, he forgives him. I think that's what I take from that.

But why would he? Because they were kids. I'm not defending it. I'm saying I could... It's dumb. I hate it. I think not defending it. I'm saying I could. It's dumb. I hate it. I think that it has to do, like, current climate considered, it is harder to get on board with someone who did a horrible thing being forgiven.

But the point I wanted to make about that is that, like, Kiefer bullying Billy Mahoney, Kevin Bacon's character bullying Winnie. Those are, like, we're socializers. just be like, well, boys will be boys. Boys are just mean little bullies. Right. It's okay. And then when they grow up, that's their chance to be like, okay, they've grown up, they've matured, and now they can apologize and everything will be fine. But whereas, like you were saying, women, you know, we're socialized to view women differently.

So, like, we just don't. We're not going to be like, oh, girls will be girls. You know, girls always being schoolyard bullies. Oh, it's okay. They'll learn. They'll be nicer when they're older. Like, that's not how. Or will they?

Women. It seems like flawed but still sympathetic female protagonist is a relatively new thing to be accepted. Like, usually the woman with the flaw is the villain. Right. As opposed to, like, where I think, you know, you could argue past a couple years. Like, there's even, like, even a few years after this was My Best Friend's Wedding. And I remember a lot of people coming away from that movie being like i don't like julia roberts like she was a she's the hero quote unquote of the movie but it's like a woman doing it leaves a bad taste in the audience's mouth especially in this

country you know watching movies right where they're like oh what a bitch she was and poor cameron diaz and blah blah blah blah blah. Which is ridiculous because for a character to be interesting and dynamic and multidimensional, they have to have flaws, which is probably part of why so many female characters are underwritten and underdeveloped because they're like, well, I have a very vague and limited understanding of women as a male screenwriter. So she's this person who's nice, and she's nice.

And that's all she is. The thing about her is she's nice. But also, she's hot. And if she's not nice, then she's the villain. But not too hot. Right, right. Not hot enough because then she's mean. Because then she's unrelatable.

Because then she's mean. But if she is mean, then she's the villain. And then that's her only quality also is that she's mean. That's not how people are. They don't have just one quality. Right. I have two. And they're under my shirt.

See? We're back to that again. Oh, the first thing I wanted to say was, like, it'd be great if they really made it. Well, who knows what they'll do with the sequel. But it's like, for it to be a true redemption story. Because it's like, making an amends isn't just saying I'm sorry. To make an amends means to make something right. Like, how can I fix this?

How can I make this right? And that's very compelling, I think. And with, you know, the majority of the leads in the new one being female, that should be quite interesting if they take that approach of like, you know, righting a wrong. The other thing I was going to say was maybe for me, the most sexist part of the movie was the fact that the other three take their shirts off, but Julia Roberts has to keep her bra on because she's a lady.

And not for a sexual reason, but for sheer scientific purposes, like they have to shock her. Yeah. They put those pads on her bra, it would burst into flames. Ooh, didn't think of that. Yeah. Right.

And it's like, there's like a metal coil in it. Like it would have been a disaster. There you go. They would have blown up the art museum. She was not an equal to them in that respect. Right. She couldn't be bare

chested you can't see my nipples right um i mean that might be because of uh like probably a oh no i contract and like they could have implied right oh sure you're sure right and i think just like the logistical blockbuster rating system i think well this was an r wasn't it it must have been was it i don't know it must have been. Was it? I don't know. It must have been. They said fuck once. They said fuck a lot. They said fuck and little boys murdered. Little boys were murdered. But it's okay.

It was scary. Forgiven. But you're right. Even Kevin Bacon, who is the only one who sort of actively pursues trying to redeem himself, all he does is just say, I'm sorry. Say sorry. Right. And then she says, I forgive you because I'm nice.

I'm a woman and I'm nice. Right. Yeah. And then we just see says, I forgive you because I'm nice. I'm a woman and I'm nice. Right. Yeah, also, and then we just see like, she has a greenhouse. She's fine. She's killing it. And then she even says to him,

I'm not in med school, but I have a greenhouse. And he's like, oh, I don't feel this bad. Sheila comes running in with like stacks of 20s. She's like, Mom, where should I put

all this money? Eat it. We don't need it. It was rated R. There you go. Restricted. Okay, Mom, where should I put all this money? Eat it. We don't need it. It was rated R. There you go. Restricted. Okay. Well, then my breast argument falls apart.

Let's discuss whether or not the movie passes the Bechdel test. Based on the assumption that the old lady has... Mrs. Talcum Powder? What's her name? Mrs. Ansler. Mrs. Ansler. Mrs. Ansler. So then in that case, it passes in the first scene with two women.

The woman she talks to in that first scene when she's interviewing those people, that first lady is not named. Oh, sorry. I was referring to the first scene with the old woman. Okay. Is the first scene that passed for me. Got it. No, before that, when she's interviewing the two women, there are two women there,

in addition to... Do we get the young girl's name? One of them is Terry. Yeah, exactly. She gets named. Terry's like, I saw a light in a tunnel in a chariot, and there's music,

and it was beautiful. And then she's like, Terry, you need to get off your medication. But maybe that one doesn't count because they were kind of talking about God, and as everyone knows, God is a man. Let's get into it. I want this episode to be four hours long.

And then in the scene after that, it passes again because Julia and Edna. Edna's like, there's trouble in the ER. And she's like, why are you always asking your patients about death? And Julia's like, I'm going to be late for class. Thanks, Edna. Right. But she's always asking people about death because of her dad and her dad's a man right so it all comes back to all comes back to men and there's men in the er and there's trouble in the er and men cause all the trouble you raise some excellent points i think all of

her scenes with mrs death pass mrs death yes she's like, I don't want to be buried on a Saturday. It costs $150 more. Is it bad that by the end I was like, die already! And then like when she was dead I was like, good! Seems like she wanted to be dead for the whole movie. Yeah. When Julie Roberts says, were you doing much better today? The woman looks at her like, fuck you

honey. Yeah. I have wanted to die. It is incredible though, thinking about it, that she doesn't even, like, the go-to cliche would be her talking about, like, her dead husband. Yeah, I think that that does end up being a weird character because it seems like she would be, like, the classic, like, old person character to teach someone a lesson. Right. But it is also, it probably wouldn't work if she was talking about seeing Edgar again or whatever

because then it would be Edgar too. In the way the character exists in the movie, she is not looking forward to dying. Right. But she's also like,

I just want to get it fucking over with. Well, she even said, she's like, I told everyone I loved them. She makes it sound like I did all this stuff. Right.

I'm thinking about my burial. Right. And then she mentions voices telling her different things. Oh, yeah. And then after she dies and Julia comes back to discover that, she talks to Edna again and says, I wanted to tell her the voices were wrong. There's nothing beautiful out there.

Because this is after Rachel Mendes has flatlined. Thank God she dies ghost daddy ghost daddy oh yeah what if that was their last conversation she's like

actually you should be very afraid of this awful I know oh what if when Julie Roberts dies she actually sees the movie Ghost Dad

that's a punishment for anyone I saw that in the theater that's why my mom and I were going to the movies. It was impossible to know. Yeah.

The point, though, about Flatliners is that it passes. Are we still recapping it? And then. So Kevin Macon just scaled the building. Flatliners passes the Bechdel test like in four different scenes. It does. I feel like this is just another. It's not outwardly hateful of women,

even though it's often very, very misguided. But the problem, or most of the Bechdel test problem stems from there's only one female with any significant screen time. Right. Which is every blockbuster from the beginning of time. There's a few exceptions, but mostly, yeah. Well, I mean, there are exceptions, but that's the trend.

But I wonder if you broke it down per person, there's probably more women have lines in the movie overall than men. But they're all secondary or tertiary characters. Oh, definitely. Oh, well, I'll go you one further. They all fucked Billy Baldwin. And there's also, like, very long scenes in this movie that are all men,

where I feel like the exchanges we're referencing are generally, with the exception of Julia Roberts and Mrs. Death, are generally pretty quick scenes. Totally. I mean, it's not a women's movie. No.

It's a Joel Schumacher movie. It's a dumb movie uh with that let's rate it on our nipple scale where we rate the movie based on its portrayal of women on a scale of zero to five nipples i'm gonna give it two i think because rachel manis's character if you just isolate her and are only thinking about her and her portrayal is pretty good especially just because in the scenes where they're flatlining each other and then reviving each other, she's doing important things. She's pretty crucial to those scenes and that process.

However, it did really bother me that hers was the only sin that was completely passive, and she didn't have to actively do anything to try to redeem herself. I don't know if that choice was deliberate, but based on our conversation of like, people don't like female characters when they do bad things because we hate women as a society. Yeah, that was a great point. I wonder who made that point. It's very hard to redeem a woman. It is.

And then the fact that it goes into your own personal experience is significant as well. I think that, yeah. And then also the fact that they completely, they most, Ooh, the McCarthy rule. We love letting,

we love introducing rules. I would call it McCarthyism is what I would do. Oh, sorry, finish. I forgot, I had one new rule I wanted to present

in this episode. Great, great, great. But I also, not great that the movie mostly glosses over the fact that Billy Baldwin's character is a sex criminal. And that's not addressed. You know like when you're a rapist but it's cute? You're just a little pervert. You're a pussy marauder.

Videotaping a partner and not letting them know, that's extremely illegal. But what a problem that is now with the internet, the shaming ex-girlfriends and all that bullshit. Yeah. Ugh. Oh, yeah, he's an early pioneer of revenge porn. That in itself would have been an interesting movie,

just exploring him videotaping sex without the partner's consent and then him getting busted. And then all the women murdering him because of it.

That could be something. I would like to see that movie. While we're on, okay, so this does dovetail cutting his dick off. This does dovetail into my rule,

which I have thought about before. I don't think I've ever brought it up before is uh the rule of if you take an attractive actor who is perhaps committing sex crimes or being a very you know like oozing toxic masculinity swap them out with steve buscemi how does the movie change it's the new buscemi rule i thought of it after re-watching Drive. Replace Gosling with Buscemi and it is

a completely different movie about an unhinged fucking maniac. Like, if you take out a sexy person and put Steve Buscemi

in the role in a toxic male role, the movie changes a thousand percent. And then Billy Baldwin is the character that would apply

that rule to him. All I can picture is Steve Buscemi not having sex and then turning and smiling at the camera. It's horrifying. It's totally different. But I feel like that has to be, that should be applied because it's like, just because Billy Baldwin has, I mean, I think he has a very weird face. But like, because he's attractive, the rules change for him in some way. I don't know.

Or it's cuter. I don't know. Or it's cuter. I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but it's like he's too good looking for me to root for. Right. Like I get in that mindset. That's true. But it's also, he's just, he's the least likable character in the movie for me. Because I just think what he's.

I liked Kiefer the least. But I think that. I feel like he doesn't even smile the whole movie with Kiefer you're just like what the fuck and he's like he's the tortured artist brilliant genius gonna explore the blah blah blah and then he turns out he killed a kid and he's a bully

but it's just like does he not end up completely brain dead after being dead for 12 minutes no doubt I wish he had died maybe in the sequel he'll just be like a vegetable who just kind of types with a few fingers. And that's how the new med school students have to communicate with him. And he's trying to tell them, don't do this. Look at what happened to me.

And they're just like, but we got to be on. I think he's telling someone to touch up his blonde roots. Someone dye this man's hair. But that's a new rule we can use at our discretion. The Buscemi substitution, I'll call it. I like it. I like it a lot. By the way, my two nipples that I've awarded to the movie belong to Oliver Platt because he does not.

Grace, those were yours? No, I'm going to give mine out. Someone else should rate the movie. I was thinking two and a half nipples. Julie Roberts' character is the smartest of the crew. They keep saying at every point they can't do it without her. I give two of them to Julia and then half one to the dead lady. Big ups. Mrs. Death?

Mrs. Deathfire. half a withered nipple i'm gonna give it two as well for pretty much all the reasons stated i i think matt's point really about about the female character needing to be likable put julia roberts arc in perspective for me a lot and uh robbed the movie of half of a nipple because she is the most capable, but she's also sort of given the least dimension because she cannot be seen as unlikable or too flawed. Right.

Her arc is the least arcy. It's like more of just a flat line. Hey! Whoa! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh!

So I'm going to give my two nipples to Alfred Molina. And let me just really quick look up. I have to assume he was offered the role. Oliver Platt's role. Let me speculate on perhaps what he was doing instead. This is my favorite part. What was Alfred Molina doing instead of being in this movie? He would have been too old to be in med school no he no because he was uh so well i don't know platt was born 1960 mulina is

born 53 but he's a character actor does it really matter okay here's something he might have been doing instead this is 1990 maybe he was shooting not without my daughter or maybe he was shooting the movie american friends or maybe he was on the press tour for rescuers speaking in which he played italian priest or maybe he was just uh playing one of his many famous shakespearean stage roles either way he was too fucking busy so they threw platybone i forget where i was but i I don't even know if I met him, but he was just there and we were like, oh, fuck. Oh, my God. That's so exciting.

Wait, you don't remember where? I really can't. We might have even had an exchange, but I honestly can't remember. Well, if you remember, let us know because we're always looking for him. Hey, Matt, thank you so much for being our guest. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me. Of course.

Where can people find you online? They can go to thisismattmccarthy.com for all your Matt McCarthy needs, or you can follow me on all forms of social media at McCarthyRedhead, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and go to wewatchwrestlingpodcast.com. New episodes every Wednesday at 3.16 a.m. Wow. Excellent take. Mm-hmm. We just got back from New York City

celebrating our 4th anniversary congratulations thank you thank you so much thank you so much girls you should go to women, ladies pussy marauders

there's just no good equivalent to guys. Gals. I like gals. Gals. I like gals. It's a little bit condescending, but I'm into it. Ladies works, but there is something formal about it.

I prefer a gentlewoman. Gentlewoman? I prefer a what's up, bitch. So you bitches, you should check out... You sluts. I just noticed on the professional wrestling tip, September 7th in Baldwin Park is a bar wrestling is having their fourth show. And I was looking at the announced lineup. So far, there are more female wrestlers booked on the show than male wrestlers.

That's excellent. There you go. And the queen of intergender wrestling, Candice LeRae, will be in the house. Excellent. There you go. For all you wrestling fans out there, that might mean something to you. Man, I haven't watched wrestling in like a year. I'm bad.

I've never seen it. It's fun. I don't know anything about wrestling. Are you watching GLOW? No, I intend to, but I have not started yet. Aristotle loves Glow. Glowhead over there. That's my single.

That's right. Check out my comedy single, Pro Wrestling Fan, Matt McCarty on Spotify and iTunes and all such platforms. Very cool. You can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, at Bechtelcast. You can go to our brand spanking new website. Bechtelcast. You can go to our brand spanking new website. Bechtelcast.com. You can also, there's a spot on our website where you can donate money to us

to help us with some of our production costs. Please. Thank you. Please and thank you. And you can also have a great day. Today, you know what? Maybe not such a good day to die after all. Perfect. Perfect. Bye.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

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In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the President of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nicknamed Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer, this season on the new podcast, Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad-free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to iHeartTrue Crime Plus only on Apple Podcasts. Face gem, there are no roads. Good point. So, where are we headed? Into the unknown, of course. Join us on In Our Own World as we uncover hidden truths,

navigate the depths of culture, identity, and the human spirit. With a hint of mischief. One episode at a time. Buckle up and listen to In Our Own World on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Trust us, it's out of this world.