The Bechdel Cast - Frances Ha with Christina Catherine Martinez

Episode Date: September 19, 2019

This week, Jamie Lo and Caitlin Du sit down with special guest Christina Catherine Martinez to analyze Frances Ha.(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @xtina_catherine on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Oh, I wish I... pretend I'm opening a can of Mike's hard. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast retro version. My name's Jamie Loftus. A throwback. I haven't drank Mike's during

a Bechdelcast episode in literally a year and a half. So long. It's been a while, but I had two cold brews this morning and so I'm just, I'm like a young Judy Garland. I'm just upping and downing all damn day and I'm gonna die before I'm 50. I think that that all tracks. That works for me.

How are you, Caitlin? I mean, I don't want you to die ever. Thank you. So please stay alive i think that the world i forget what that article said i think the world's gonna die when i'm like 47 the world will die before we do yes yeah so that's great anyway hi i'm caitlin dorante this is the bechdel cast this is our podcast about women in movies and we use the bechdel test to initiate a larger conversation. I think most of the things we just said passed. You did say

Mike's hard lemonade, so Mike... We don't know how Mike identifies. That's true. I honestly don't even know if Mike is a person or an idea. Wow, makes you think. Yeah. It's 2019, Caitlin. That's right. Yeah. And also, how does the planet Earth identify genderless icon?

True. That's what I say. Anyway, so the Bechdel test requires that a movie, for example, has two named female identifying characters who must speak to each other about something other than a man. And our version is just a two-line exchange that's all that needs to happen yes and uh you know some movies do it and some movies don't let's let's try it okay okay here we go here's a vexel test test hey caitlin hey jamie you know what i love when it happens in a movie tell me when new york is not just a place but a character how does new york identify oh my god as a fucking asshole i don't know they're i just love when new york is that's my favorite

piece of film criticism when they're like the location is actually also a character um which uh you know i love that i think it's just a gorgeous, very thoughtful original. Definitely. And what's crazy about this is that New York City, because it's a character, is my best friend. Wow. I love them. Well, that passed.

We did it. Yeah. It doesn't have to be a good exchange. That's always the lesson. I'm so psyched for today's episode. It's been a request we've gotten quite a few times oh has it okay good yes we have gotten this request quite a few times and i'm so thrilled to uh have our guest on today oh my goodness one of my bffs yes indeed what a

delight she is uh she's an art critic she's comedian. She's got a book coming out called Aesthetical Relations. It's Christina Catherine Martinez. Can I talk now? You may speak. You may remove. We have gagged you. I'm so excited. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for being here.

And today we are talking about the, I guess it's kind of hard to tell when this movie came out. People say between 2012 and 2013. It was 2012. Okay. It was released. You know what? Case closed. We're talking about Frances Ha today.

The way I think most people met Gertie Gerwig. Ever heard of her? It is confusing. It does have a lot of early aughts vibes to it from having come out in 2012. And I think this movie, to me, this movie came out while I was in college. And this is people in college bait. Because it comes out in 2012. But honey, it's in black and white.

So you're like, so I go into this movie and I'm ready to think real hard. Sure. But yeah, it's a black and white 2012 movie directed by Noah Baumbach and written by him and Greta Gerwig,

who I think by the time this movie comes out are an item which they are to this day. Good for them. Yeah, he left, who did he leave for Greta Gerwig?

Jennifer Jason Leigh. Really? Yeah. Did she have his baby no that was Tom Brady left his pregnant oh god Bridget Moynihan I think oh for Giselle yeah oh my goodness I mean he's a Trump supporter so we don't know we simply can't with Tom Brady difficult difficult yeah I wish it made me mad though like of course he left his wife for a younger lady but i'm like they work really well together yeah and it's just i mean two very cool women that he's

been in at least a public relationship oh that noah has okay that noah no we're not tom's let's just promise to never talk about tom ready again okay good uh no but i don't know noah bombock you know think what you want about him. He's dated some cool ladies. Sure. But yeah, this is, I feel like, does this movie qualify as mumblecore? I feel like it's adjacent to it, but there's more plot to it than mumblecore. I suppose. And that's not saying that much.

Although there's not all that much plot. I would call this, oh, you know what we haven't said in a while? This is really a tone poem. Oh. That goes all the way back to our Josh Fadum episode. Yes. I would call this, oh, you know what we haven't said in a while? This is really a tone poem. That goes all the way back to our Josh Fadum episode. Yes, it really is a tone poem. And there is a lot of horny depth to it, I would say. And it's an actor's film, I would say. Wow.

It's mumble adjacent. I haven't, because Greta Gerwig's character is pretty charming and quirky. But I have seen a clip of her acting in an actual mumblecore movie. And she's literally in a bathtub with goggles, you know, spouting to her friend, like, why can't we connect? It's mumblecore is starting five sentences and not finishing any of them. Sure. Right. And there's mumblecore.

I mean, I had quite a bit of contempt for that genre. And I feel like everyone has dated a douchebag who is too into mumblecore. Like my college boyfriend was like, you haven't seen the puffy chair? The puffy chair? The puffy chair. I guess I don't know what really classifies as mumblecore. It's literally just about like. It's like Italian neorealism, but bad.

It's like, it's usually about people in Brooklyn, usually a white hetero couple in Brooklyn or brothers or like brothers working through their issues together. It's always really long. It's semi scripted. It's like, what else is there? I think it's, yeah, plotless, semi scripted. What else is there? I think it's, yeah, plotless, semi-scripted, and I think in an effort to come off as naturalized, I think the dialogue tends to be overly awkward.

You know, like, give people some credit. People are articulate in real life at some points. Right. I'm looking at a list. I don't recognize a lot of these movies. Oh, Jeff Who Lives at Home, I've seen that. I've seen Drinking Buddies. These are on this list.

Those are, yeah. And I feel like Francis Ha and the two movies you just mentioned are on the more scripted side of that genre. Because Greta Gerwig got her start in mumblecore movies. And most of her early stuff and most early mumblecore in general is, I feel, completely unwatchable and annoying. Oh, Before Sunset is on this list. I don't think that's – That doesn't count. Who made this Wikipedia page?

I don't know. Before Sunset to me is like the opposite. It's so stylized because their dialogue is so pithy and clever. I love Before Sunrise and Before Sunset. But I still wouldn't call it mumblecore but i think francis haw i think is maybe one of the more polished if you could even call it of this genre i wasn't really sure i don't think so i think it's her graduation from mumblecore she's you know collaborating with a i was gonna say real filmmaker that's a horrible way to put it you know like because he's a man a real wow I didn't know that you were

an MRA yeah I didn't know wow I'm an enemy to my own sex I and I will just maybe say off the bat I like this movie I do too oh yeah so what's your history your relationship with this movie? I think I saw it in the theater and I thought it was amazing and I was I'm been subject to a lot of movies with like a manic pixie dream character kind of thing so I was ready to like totally hate it but because I think it was a little more subtle than I was expecting I freaking loved it sure and then I watched it again this week, years later. Maybe liked it slightly less. There was a few cringy moments of like, here's a sincerity egg pie in your face. But I really, it's charming. It's, you know, it's a coming of age story. But also I think the main thing, which is why it's fun to talk about on this podcast is the the romance is between like is a

female friendship two girls yeah and so I think it a lot even the more stylized moments like if they had these montages of like playing and eating and if they had that with a straight white couple it would be so barf barforific yeah yeah but there is something kind of sweet that it's just two friends and you don't really see that kind of intimacy too much in films. Well, that's because movies don't like to have women in them.

No. So. Or only in certain ways. Yeah, I did like, my history with this movie is I saw it, it came out when I was in college and I went to a film school

and everyone was, wow, Brad. I mean, pause. But did you go to film school twice though, Jamie? No, I wasn't quite that financially reckless. Yeah, I was. I was then. I did go to film school twice. It's not movie school,

it's film school. I actually go a step further and I call it cinema school. I like cinema school. I go a step further and I call it cinema school I went to see literary I go a step further I just say it in French I went to an leco de cinema oh my god it's like and it sounds like there's less debt involved when you say it that way

point of that being that everyone I knew at this time saw this movie loved this movie and I was like I don't know I was like kind of an edgelord about it and I I remember watching it and being like it's dumb she's dumb like I didn't I don't know I I I didn't like it when I first saw it I think because I had it in my head I was like oh these are mumblecore people I don't like it very much um even though I like the squid and the whale but whatever um but yeah and I just didn't like it very much even though I like the squid and the whale but whatever but yeah and I just didn't take it very seriously and I didn't under and I genuinely didn't

understand most of the characters motivations and then I re-watched it this week with friend of the cast Melissa Lozada Oliva and we both we both hadn't seen it since college we're the same age and this time we're pretty much the same age as the protagonist of the movie and it made a lot more sense to me this time the whole vibe of like I feel insecure and like lesser than to my friends I'm just gonna put a reckless vacation on a credit card because I'm feeling uncomfortable with myself makes a lot more sense to me than it did when I was 19. Sure. And I got more out of it this time. I thought I, you know, it has its things and there are definitely cringy moments, but I feel like I get it now.

All right. What's your history with this movie? I saw it probably sometime around, I think I was in Boston still when I watched half of it it popped up on Netflix at some point and I think it probably never left it's been on Netflix for 900 years yeah so I think I maybe saw it in like 2013 watched the first half of it and it's not that i wasn't enjoying myself but i wasn't like super fully engaged and then got sidetracked and then never felt compelled to finish it sure so i had only seen half of this movie before prepping for the episode and uh yeah i i guess i wasn't very compelled by it because i've said it before i'll say say it again. I love a good

romp. I would not call this movie a romp. It's not quite a romp. Not like a shaggy dog story, but just sort of like a shaggy teacup poodle. Also, I paid, it's on Netflix, because I paid to watch this on Amazon Prime. Christina, it's been on Netflix for six years.

Do you guys have an expense account? Who did we talk to about getting that? We'll vend my U10 dollars. It's $3.99. Oh, okay. No, actually, that's unacceptable. I think that people would be like, wow, this is the first time anyone's rented this movie in five years.

It like kicked up some server in Iowa that like, This hasn't made a move in years. Can I give you a tip and all of our listeners a tip? There is an app called Just Watch. Oh, I don't know about this. Okay. This is not an ad, by the way. This is not an ad.

We are not sponsored by Just Watch. No, we're sponsored by Smart Food Popcorn. Honey. If you download this app called Just Watch and type in the name of any movie or TV show or anything like that, it will tell you what platforms it is streaming for free on. It'll tell you where you can rent it and it tells you where you can buy it. That's amazing. I feel like IMDb should be doing that.

Yeah. Right? There's a few movies you can watch for free on IMDb. You can watch Paddington 1 on IMDb for free. Yeah. I think they're gonna become the new amazon they're gonna start something's i mean let's see capitalism is all around us and they're so if you can get anything for free do it now yeah touch id to

install yes take my fingerprint lord bezos. Everyone pause and please take my identity. Identify me, Lord Bezos. So, yeah, should we go into the recap? Yeah. Go from there? Which is difficult because there's kind of no plot. I was trying to figure this out. You're not wrong.

Also, the one thing I was surprised at that I totally forgot about from my first watch of this movie is Adam Driver Fedora. It is weird now to watch early Adam Driver knowing he is now an animatronic at Disney World and be like, a mere six or seven years ago, he was Fedora guy in a Noah Baumbach movie. A man we were introduced to coming on Lena Donham is now an animatronic. Truly a marvel. Also did you notice that the other roommate is the husband, the crappy husband from Marvelous Mrs. Maisel? No. I haven't watched that show yet. Yeah okay well I just outed myself as a watcher of that show. Thank you, Lord Bezos. Christina is sponsored by Jeff Bezos. She's actually a bot that he made. Incredible.

Alexa is actually based on Christina. Yeah, it's just my brain. It's just there's a little Alexa in there. Talk about the ultimate manic pixie dream girl, Alexa. Oh, my fucking girl. There was a movie about howlexa validate me artistically uh yeah what happens in the movie caitlin because not really anything i'll do my best so francis is a young woman living in new york city ever heard of it and her roommate and best friend is sophie shout out to our super producer, Sophie, who shares the same name.

Who's played by Mickey Sumner, who I was not familiar with. And Frances is, of course, Greta Gerwig. Greta Gerwig. Who co-wrote the movie. Frances's boyfriend, Dan, asks her to move in with him, but she would rather continue living with Sophie and just do everything with Sophie, really. So this causes her and Dan to break up. In a very, in a scene that I watched twice because I was like, are they really?

Are they break, what? Where he was such, he was just like, well, then maybe we shouldn't be together anymore. I was like, geez, all right. He's also talking about wanting to get cats, like two cats for the both of them expensive together to be fair right but that's a very real point in a relationship that maybe like as a young 19 year old you could not relate to yes but like you know especially when you're

you're late 20s i think this character's 27 just maybe still too early for this talk it's kind of like yeah well if we're not going to move in together then what's the point of keeping going yeah as someone who splits custody with a dog i've had that breakup you know that like too early for this talk. It's kind of like, yeah, well, if we're not going to move in together, then what's the point of keeping going? Yeah. As someone who splits custody with a dog. I've had that breakup, you know, that like,

well, we're not going to get married, so why are we here? Why are we here? How much longer will this happen? If we're not going to share cats together,

then what's the fucking point? Yeah, the cats are a metaphor. Cats do have eight nipples. This is Cat Facts with Caitlin. She didn't seem too broken up about the breakup, though. No. It seems like it was. That was one of the interesting scenes that I enjoyed.

It was like a weird, like, whose idea was it to break up? They sort of just mutually were like, well. I like that. I liked that. She's kind of like, he says this isn't working, meaning the discussion of them talking about moving in together. And she interprets that as, like, our relationship isn't working. And then he's like, oh, okay, I guess we're going to break up then, if that's how you feel about it. And then she thinks about it for a second.

She's like, yeah, that's fine. And then later Sophie is like, when, you know, like Greta Gerwig's character, Frances, I'm going to keep calling her Greta Gerwig. Greta Gerwig is like, well, like, I only broke up with Dan because I thought we were going to keep living together. And Sophie kind of immediately is like, that's not the only reason, though. Greta's like, no, I guess not. Right. So she wanted to break up with him.

It's a good, I want to get into this later, but Frances's codependent behaviors will just, oh, they are present. And that's the first scene where we see her apologize a hundred times which is a type of visibility i feel like this is one of the good like mumble corey elements is she apologizes like seven times for no reason in that scene but you don't get to see female characters do a lot even though that's something that like we're hardwired to do do yeah for passing the bechdel test, she does say, I feel bad all the time in the movie.

Yeah, yeah. Which is like, I mean, there's different, I feel like there's a big pressure on female characters to set an example. And it's kind of nice and refreshing to see a character who's just kind of reflecting a certain type of woman at a moment in time. And I mean, the constant apologizing can relate yeah yes so she and dan have broken up and then one day francis and sophie are on the train together i think and sophie is like i want to move in with my friend lisa in this

great apartment that we found in tribeca hey franc, Francis, are you okay with that? And Francis is clearly not okay with that. But she's like, yeah, I'm okay with that. And then so this is the beginning of their friendship crumbling. So now that now for now, so now that Francis is single, she goes on a date with this guy Lev that's Adam Driver's character this doesn't go anywhere romantically but she does move in with him and his friend Benji just like sleeping on their couch who is and Benji is Benji's Joel from Marvelous Mrs. Maisel got it I'm sure a lot of our listeners will know we just haven't seen it yeah cute as a button. Yeah. I mean, I don't care. She's moved in with them.

She has not seen that much of Sophie recently. And then Sophie finally does come over to Francis's new place, but she's like all judgy. She doesn't stay very long. She's got this boyfriend patch that she like hangs out with a lot now. And Francis is having some money struggles. She's in this dance company because she does ballet or she's an understudy, I guess, in the dance company. And she's thinking that they'll be able to use her in this Christmas show and that will earn her more money, but they're not able to use her after all.

She's proud of herself for asking. That's another moment of hers that i really like yeah so she doesn't have this money that she thought was coming in and then she and sophie get in this big fight and sophie seems to be withdrawing from their friendship more and more meanwhile the roommate benji keeps calling francis totally undateable which is like one of the eye-rolly elements of this movie. Yeah, it stuck out as like a little... Yeah, we can have that. We can talk about that.

That was like one of the few I was like, this didn't age well. This isn't as cute as they thought it was. And then Frances can't afford to stay with Lev and Benji anymore, so she goes to stay with her friend Rachel from the dance company, who clearly does not seem to really like Francis. Who's a Kazan? I believe.

Or a Kazan. A Kazan. Sorry, I'm not French. So is this what we say in the art world? Kazan. Sorry, Christina is our representative from the art world, and so if we're fucking it up, let us know. We just put the emphasis on a different syllable. We're pedestrian heathens.

I'm sorry, you meant pedestrian. Pedestrian heathens. Pedestron. The hoi polloi. So she is hanging out with Rachel and Rachel's friends, and she finds out from these people that Sophie and her boyfriend Patch are moving to Japan in a few weeks. And Sophie hasn't told this directly to Francis,

so she's like, oh, no. Some of these problems are so Brooklyn that you're just like, sure. My boyfriend and I are moving to Japan in a few weeks. I'm sorry, Francis. You're just like, sure. I do take this movie as, like, Brooklyn gospel. Maybe that's totally misguided, but I'm like, oh, You're just like, sure. I do take this movie as like Brooklyn gospel. Maybe that's totally misguided,

but I'm like, oh, I feel like that happens all the time that you would go on a date with someone. If it doesn't work out, you can just become roommates. You just move in with them. Yeah. I think so. So then Frances decides to spontaneously go to Paris and it's basically a wasted trip

because she like sleeps the whole time accidentally and doesn't do anything. That's the part where Melissa and I started crying. This is actually the best part of the movie. This is when it's actually kind of subverting its own romanticism and showing how locked up this character is. Let's talk about that. Let's put a pin in that. Sorry, really quick uh i meant

rachel i i confused my kazans and my gummers uh grace gummer plays rachel aka meryl streep's what is a gummer oh a meryl streep's daughter is what it is oh okay i'm sorry uh meryl streep or meryl street welcome and take a left onto Meryl Street. Big Little Lies season two might be over by the time this episode is out. We call her Meryl Street. Et France. Okay, so she's in Paris and then... Very French. Sophie calls her to finally tell her that she's moving to Japan.

Their conversation is very tense tense and then she gets back to the u.s she has a meeting with a dance company owner and she thinks she's gonna be made a part of the touring company but instead she is offered an office job which she turns down immediately also a devastating i don't know that scene was also like devastating but i also like that because she was like no i don't want that job. I know what I want and I'm going to immediately say no. She turns it down. Yeah.

But that was a tough scene to watch her like process what was happening. Yeah. Because she had like already started telling people. She's like, I'm going to be touring soon. And then she's like, God. As someone who has jumped the gun. But even then it was even sadder because her saying touring company was playing down her own expectations. Like, oh, I'm definitely going to join the company, but probably just a touring company.

Right. And then she doesn't even get that. Poor Frances. Yeah. I think Greta Gerwig's really good in this movie. The way she like, yeah. Anyways. So then we cut to Frances having moved to Poughkeepsie to be an RA at the college where she went to school.

And she works. It's supposed to be Vassar, I think. Is it? That's what I saw. That's what the Wikipedia said. Got it. Okay. All colleges east of the Mississippi kind of blend together for me.

Yeah. It's very, it's very, it's very like a neoliberal family. You're like, oh, this is a female friendly space. She, it's, she returns to Vassar, her alma mater. Is that how you say it? Oma. Mater? Oma mater. Oma mater. Well, we have fun.

So she's at this school in Poughkeepsie, a.k.a. Vassar. She is working various events around campus to make money. And at one of them, Sophie and Patch are in attendance. And like Francis is lurking around until she overhears Sophie say that she and Patch are engaged. And she's like, what? You're engaged? Right.

Because she's lurking around because she's a caterer and she doesn't want to be exposed as working as a caterer. But then like, record scratch. Yeah. Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? That really is how that scene plays out. She actually does a triple take with neon sunglasses.

And just the sunglasses are in color. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like Schindler's List in that way. Go on. Yes. So she and Sophie get to talking at this event. Sophie is drunk. She and Patch are to talking at this event. Sophie is drunk. She and Patch are not getting along.

And then later that night, Sophie shows up to Frances' dorm room. And they kind of rekindle their friendship a little bit. And then Sophie says that she wants to leave Tokyo. She wants to leave Patch. She wants to move back to New York. So Brooklyn. Yes. So Sex and the City.

I think I'm going to leave Patch. back to New York so Brooklyn so Sex and the City you are New York I think I'm going to leave Patch because I just figured out New York is a character in the movie and I want to leave Patch but I don't want to leave my friend character New York I couldn't help but wonder, was New York my boyfriend? that sounds like a

Carrie Bradshaw voiceover that's exactly what I was trying to do good good nailed it um and then sometime later Frances has moved back to New York City she is choreographing dances she puts on a show all of her friends are there including Sophie and Patch who have gotten married her old roommates Lev and Benji, are there. The dance company instructor, owner, person is there. And then that's when I stopped writing down my version of the recap, and then I don't know if anything happens after that.

So if there's any blanks to fill in, please. The only thing that I also thought was a little, I thought it was a really lovely ending in terms of, you know, it was because it's a movie about like an artist finding themselves, but also within the limits of her own artistic capacity, which is like her coming to grips with that. She's not she's not going to be the great dancer that she wants to be, but she's actually has a voice as a choreographer. And it's this adjacent thing, which feels like a compromise, and it's why she resists it. But then, you know, there's something. And the end is the only time you actually see, you know, a piece of her work. Sure. So it kind of celebrates that, and I think that's sweet.

And then I guess where the storyline about her and her friendship with Sophie ends is that they, like, I think they're on the subway again and they're talking about like, oh, what if we got apartments like really close to each other? But they live alone. They live alone, yeah. It seems like, I thought the ending was lovely. Yeah. What I remember,

there's a little bit of a shoehorning of a romantic element in that her and Benji connect again and he's like, I'm single. And she's like, ah, me too. And I'm like, I guess we're undateable. And then it's implied that they're Benji connect again. And he's like, I'm single. And she's like, ah, me too. And I'm like, I guess we're undateable. And then it's implied that they're going to get together. But the ending ending is a moment that Frances refers to

during the dinner party, you know, half an hour earlier about, you know, what she wants out of a relationship. And she, like, talks about, this was a little cringey and hard to watch, but it's true, and it made me very uncomfortable to watch it she's like you know talking about like you know when that feeling like when you're at a party and like you and your person are both being charming and amazing and then you just catch each other's eye and you look up and you share a moment and it's just you and your person having your own little world blah blah blah yeah and it's cute callback because she has that moment with sophie and that's

the end of the movie okay got it yeah awesome it's yeah i i liked i mean in retro i like i feel like this movie i don't know i'm like even seven years later i wonder if like the benji of it all would have gotten the attention that it does at the end. But it stays pretty well within the bounds of, like, the friendship is where the emphasis is, which feels like where it belongs. Yeah, and we can talk more about that right after this break. Right after the break! Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist

who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers.

And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.

I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hanken's thing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke.

What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Rudy. I'm not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it.

It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline,

a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions, like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions.

Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it? Like you miss 100% of the shots you never take. Yeah. Rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. reflection of reality. He's like, hold on a second.

Which is, I think, like, one of the more glaring, like, things about it. This movie, like, there are class elements addressed in it that I thought were kind of cool, and where it's, I feel like this movie brings up something that not a lot of movies or really people do, which is, like, kind like kind of like what the difference between being broke and being poor is. And this movie calls that out pretty directly where like Frances Ha is broke, but not poor per se, where like she's a struggling artist, but we see,

you know, in Sacramento, AKA Greta gerwig cannon um she has a loving family who it we think that you know and they're like oh we're sorry we can't help you out more but like worst case she's got a support system yeah worst case she could move home and i think that that's like a cool thing to see reflected also the fact that she's she's the most broke of her friend group but the fact that i mean it most broke of her friend group, but the fact that, I mean, it even speaks to her, I guess, like, talent

or drive that I'm like, wait a minute, you're a full-time dancer, you know, with no day job in New York City, and you have a roof over your head? That's amazing. It's a miracle, yeah. And Benji, who's maybe only his true function is to call her out on that. She talks about being poor, and he's like, you are not poor. He's like, there are poor people

in New York, and you are not one of them. Exactly. Yeah. And like that scene, it was like kind of a relief to see that addressed. Because it's like, I don't know, I've been the brokest of my, but there's a difference. There's definitely a difference of having no alternative. Yeah. And like what we're seeing with her is like she's definitely struggling, but it's more of an worst case

she could pony up and take the office job you know like exactly I also see yeah the I'm ambivalent about the people who sort of refuse to get day jobs because like oh I'm an artist and this is I mean there's something that I want to say is admirable about that

but it's also a privilege just to be you can only do that if you... I simply can't do anything else. Right. People who, and we know plenty of them here in, you know, L.A., for example. Los Antones. Habarista. What on earth is that?

But, I mean, the people who are able to do that come from a place of privilege. Yeah, and people who have a support network can actually deal with a lot more scarcity day to day just knowing that it's there. It's a psychological thing. Yeah, like having the option of...

I mean, I've always been kind of scant, but worst case, I could go back to Brockton, Massachusetts and live in my pappy's house. You know, like that sort of thing. Which is like a sort of privilege

that is not checked in movies very often. Definitely. In pappy's shack and literally in pappy's crumbling home but it's a pappy's anyone who's ever been to my pappy's crumbling home pappy's chateau jamie's safe space every time i go home my father gently takes out his teeth and says it's always an option um to remove your to have no teeth no to move back into his crumbling shack all that to say it is an option and i am fortunate to have it certainly and it is kind of like i felt checked in that way too and i was like yes like that is not something that is called out on very often. Sure. Which is good. This is, I think, pretty standard for this genre. But so many movies that, you know, take place in New York and are about artists or otherwise feature people who appear to be so abundantly wealthy that you're just confused about how do you afford this apartment? And so, yeah, the fact that it's even her, you know,

struggling financial situation is called attention to. And the through line of the plot is just, yeah, her real estate struggles because I think the plot is separated by the different locations that she has to live. Right, yeah. And it's like address, next act, you know what I mean? Right. The money aspects of this movie i thought were like

more realistic than most things you would see because that one of the scenes that like hit for me i think when i first saw it uh even more so than now was her having to remind her wealthier roommates like that she needs to pay yeah that she's paying less and that they agreed to that because i i think that was maybe the only thing i related with with this movie the first time around was like she it's implied that adam driver and the guy from marvelous mrs mazel are like two kind of trust fund babies who don't have much to worry about and they're artists too so they're peers but they're not really class-wise because she's from kind of like a middle-class family who support her but can't support her.

Right. And so she has to remind them from the couch that she's only paying $9.50 and that they said that was okay, right? And then it's like this awkward interaction. And I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot. Okay, so I'm like, wow, who has like an extra $300 a month? Just be like, it's chill. Which, I mean, Adam Driver, I like him.

I like him. Are you trying to convince yourself still? No, I don't want to like him. Because his career trajectory is fucking baffling. He was in the army. He puts on operas for the army. I remember so like, I'm like, is he

like a testament to male mediocrity? And if so, why do I like him? It's just weird. But whatever. I like him. And I think he's a good, he does a good job in this movie. I think he might I think he's on track to be our nation's next Keanu. Oh, interesting. Yeah, well, I think he's on track to be our nation's next Keanu.

Oh, interesting. Yeah, well, I think he's like Keanu in that. I'm like, I don't know if he's good, but I never hate to see him. Yeah, he's so compelling. And for being sort of a big star, there's actually something still kind of enigmatic about him. He's an Oscar-nominated Oscar. Like that, I'm just like, we've gone too far. Maybe he shouldn't have been nominated for an Oscar.

What was he nominated for? He was nominated for Black Klansman. I didn't know. Wait, Adam Driver? Yeah. I didn't even know he was in Black Klansman. He sure is. You hate to see it, but he is.

There's a moment, I think it's at the end of the date, the one date that Lev, Adam Driver's character, and Frances go on, he basically tries to give her not a surprise kiss, but it's like a surprise touch on her shoulder, and she just goes, eee, and then like tightens up. Which is like one of the many moments in this movie where you're like, that was a little

too manic pixie dream girl on the execution, but I appreciate what you were doing. It was exaggerated, but I appreciate what you were doing. It was exaggerated, but I have pulled that move. Sure. I'm not trying to say that the artistic merit of this movie is completely predicated on me relating to it, but I have... Listen, okay.

I'm a cancer survivor, but nothing really prepares you for being diagnosed as quirky, and I think that's something that every woman in this room has struggled with. Yes. You know, we're all recovering. We're all recovering adorkables. We're all recovering, not like the other girls. It's funny because I felt like that was a good.

Yeah, it was maybe exaggerated, but I thought that was a really real moment in that I feel like most encounters if they're not if they are consensual but you're not on the same page they're not very articulate where it's like may I touch you here and then it's like yes it's usually someone having to sense through body language that this is not okay and sometimes that can like

erupt in awkward ways well what we always see I don't even mind her reaction and I would like to get into the kind of like, you know, manic pixie discussion of this. But what I enjoy is that we see so much in movies a, you know, surprise kiss or surprise touch, which is framed as being this like wonderfully romantic moment that happens even though only one party is privy to what's about to happen and no one has given consent but it's like to look like a gesture and not a yeah right not a like you know borderline sexual assault kind of thing yeah so i like that she gives like a reaction because you know she

didn't consent and she reacts appropriately i think that whole scene with their date though i enjoyed in general because i like he is a master at being at as acting like a brooklyn douchebag and is playing that part masterfully in in this scene and it like made me laugh at a lot of different points because he's playing this douchebag that she's like kind of visibly not impressed by right where there's that whole thing where he you know he's showing her stuff on his phone it's so cringy he's like yeah this is me i went to a basketball game once you like basketball right she's like i went to a game once and he's like yeah anyways motorcycle yeah anyways this is me and jay leno which i love and then she goes back to his apartment. I love the way the male characters kind of flatten. They're like kids showing her their toys.

When they go back to the apartment, Benji's always showing her like, look at these things I got. Look at my old camera. It's so sad. It's showing traditional flirting tactics that I think in a different movie would be made out to seem really cute or cool. And it makes them look kind of pathetic in this context. Again, it's kind of nice to see like a Brooklyn trust fund boy look pathetic

because they very often are. Or like when she insists on paying for dinner for their date. And it is very funny because it's like that's another way that her brokenness comes into play because her card gets rejected she has to like go pay a three dollar fee at an atm which is a triggering experience we've all had but then he like is also a dick about that in a way where he's like you know i'm not gonna sleep with you right and she's like what and he's like oh i'm just pretending to be a liberated woman right and then this and she's like yeah you are and she's like haha okay like i don't know the way that date scene played out, I thought was like, at least, I mean, I guess that's kind of the point of movies like this.

Like, in a movie where the female character is there to set an example for other women, she would be like, you're full of shit. But in a movie that I think that it's reflecting an awkward situation that has happened to a lot of people, she's kind of just like, whatever, like, and trying to get through it, which is cool to see, too. It is. You don't see it a lot. In terms of, I mean, movies, I mean, even not having a style is a style. So it's like you have to, like, pick and choose when your character is going to have the, like, the articulate breakthrough. And that's like that wasn't the moment for it. Because it's not about her relationship with men.

It's about her relationship with her friends. So that's why her big articulate moment is at this dinner party talking about a hypothetical relationship. And it turns out it's with her BFF. Right. Yeah, can we talk more about that? Yeah, let's talk about it.

Oh, in conclusion, Adam Driver is my lady, the character. And my sir, good job, my man. Anyway, has a motorcycle. driver is Milady the character. Good job my man. Has a motorcycle. I think, yeah, they have kind of a weird, I just wrote down Frances's codependent behavior. It definitely contrasts

that obviously in the first two scenes where she's like I can't move in with you because I have to stay with my friend. And that whole, yes, just the apologizing and the I feel bad, I feel bad stay with my friend. Oh, turn your boyfriend down, yeah. Yes, just the apologizing and the, I feel bad, I feel bad, I feel guilty. It's so, but her friend, and I know she's sort of maybe the Sophie character,

I feel like it's flattened to be a little more like, not as artsy or weird, but she's definitely more self-possessed in that, you know, she has her own thing that she wants to do and is like checking in with Francis, but is like, I'm going to do this. I want to move out because. Right. I've, oh, my dream of living in this neighborhood, which is maybe longer than I've known you,

is like important. So I'm checking in, but I'm telling you, this is what I want. And that's something that I didn't understand about the movie when I first saw it that I understand now of just like, I guess just like this friendship as adorable as it is in the opening but it's like they're 27 years old they need boundaries and that's something that I think that Sophie recognizes first yep and so it's weird because I think when I first watched this movie you sort of view her as like oh why is she hurting Francis's feelings this sucks but then it's just like, no, she just like, it's not that she's breaking off the friendship. She just needs to change the boundaries of it.

And that makes sense for what we see in the opening sequence. Yeah, the first you just see her, she's the unsympathetic, non-artsy character. And there's a really low moment. I thought it was actually kind of mean where Frances is like, oh, Sophie's not smart. She doesn't even read. And I was like, so mean.

She's at work, Frances. A big thing is like, because the Sophie's not smart. She doesn't even read. And I was like, so mean. She's at work. A big thing is like, because the character, like Patch, like Sophie's kind of crappy boyfriend that's sort of in the background. The fact that Sophie's character just continues to stay with him. And it's not so flattened that it's like,

he's horrible. It's just that Frances doesn't like him. And it's probably implied that he doesn't like him just because she takes up her time. Right. Which I also didn't recognize on first watch. The whole just that she recognizes what Francis doesn't like about her boyfriend and

it's just like okay noted like I'm staying with this person and there's a cute moment kind of where she's just finally like I do like you. He's like I like you too. And it's like that complicated, like, Frances is not totally wrong about Patch, but she's saying it for the wrong reasons.

She's expressing it for the wrong reasons. And that does play out where, like, Sophie and Patch don't end up together. Sophie ends up, like, a lot of, like, everyone's had a friend's significant other that you're not crazy about. Wait, don't Sophie and Patch, they do end up together, didn't they get married? Yeah.

Oh, wait. She says she's going to leave him. But then she doesn't. But then we cut to later, and they're like, yeah, we got married. Which is funny, because it makes me feel like that sort of behavior is something maybe, like, that comes up with Sophie just when they're together. That they like to have this, they do their, like, little New York fantasy thing when they're together that they like to have this they do their like little New York fantasy thing when they're together and then when they're apart she's like

well maybe I should just like be with this dude yeah I thought it was like super cool to see not like a Mary Sue female friendship where like

and again it's just like the kind of movie this is where some movies you want to see a perfectly functioning female friendship like in Captain Marvel

that's what you want to see because it is a setting example of movie. This is more of like a Mabel Corey realist thing. And it's nice to see a friendship between women that is like complicated. There are different points in their head and in their life. And it's just like more of a reflection of, and as much as like there are some of the Mary Sue friendships

that I really enjoy, but in a way, I feel like it's a reflection of, and as much as like there are some of the Mary Sue friendships that I really enjoy, but in a way I feel like it's a little bit limiting in that it just leads to the idea that all female friendships have to be perfect, which of course they're not. I mean, it's the testament that even like, even if your feelings change about the movie, like we all, I think we all feel a little bit differently

from the first time we saw it years ago to now. Yeah. That it's more nuanced it's not like the relationship is horrible or toxic either it's just it's freaking they're i mean they're complicated they're growing as people at different rates like you said there's like uh sophie realizes that maybe they're too codependent first she She's the first one to realize this. Or that she, like, they've just sort of entwined each other in their lives a bit too much, all that stuff. They've been character development-wise developed enough that, you know, they've been given these nuances that we don't see enough. It's cool. I mean, and just like in general of any gender, seeing a friendship that is like, yeah, like

not completely black and white toxic, but just like these characters growing apart a little bit is something that happens to people all the time that I feel like is really hard to communicate on screen. I feel like it's hard to dramatize like the natural, you know, widening of friendship. Or someone who's like feeling a little bit lefting of friendship or someone who's like feeling a little bit left behind or the other person

who's feeling a little frustrated and being like why don't you get it like I mean this will happen to me sometimes just in my

personal life where I have a friend that I just kind of don't want to be friends with anymore and there's no it's

sorry Jamie I'm sorry to tell you this that I don't want to be friends with anymore. It's me. Sorry, Jamie. I'm sorry to tell you this. I don't want to be your friend anymore. Oh, my God. She told me it was you. But I mean, people grow apart or maybe their interests were never that similar to begin with, but you end up in a friendship with someone.

But there's no etiquette for like breaking up with a friend. Really? That hasn't been established in the world. Or even like renegotiating the boundaries of a friendship. Right. It only takes one person to do that, though. I mean, however the other person reacts is. That's true.

Sure. Have you ever had to do something like that? Yes. I'm really bad at it. I'm doing it with like five different people right now. Well, what I end up doing is just basically what Sophie does is just to kind of withdraw and like avoid the person and like just not share as much with them. And then,

so I really feel bad for the people who are on the receiving end of this, which in this movie, Francis is, which is like, but that's a sign of codependence as well. Is that when someone else, not even saying that the Sophie character is doing it in exactly the perfect or sensitive way but that codependent people will react to other people's boundaries with offense

and right you know will be just reactionary and take everything personally right um yeah and it's like and it is it was a little like i've only successfully done this once or twice but like when you do sort of like say like this is my new boundary like whatever and then seeing like you're like I know I'm hurting this other person but you never see it but in Frances Ha you see it and you see her go on the sad vacation and you see her

be like uh like it's just a lot of this movie truly like watching it with my friend it was like tough to watch but then after we stopped watching it and it was over, we were talking about it for a full hour. And I was just like, I feel bad after watching that. She's like, I think it's because we understand it now.

It's hard to make the Sophie character sympathetic when it's like, I don't know, maybe she's the healthy one. I mean, obviously not. No one's perfect. Quick shout out to Mickey Sumner. I don't know what she did after this movie. She's the actress who played Sophie. And mean, obviously not. No one's perfect. Quick shout out to Mickey Sumner. I don't know what she did after this movie. She's the actress

who played Sophie and she was so good. She's really, really good. Yeah, I, let me see it. I don't know what she's done since, but I mean,

I saw it. She's an indie gal. She's been in a lot of indie movies. It was even weirder. I watched it with my boyfriend, like, in bed

and I don't know why that was filmed. What? No. And especially there's a part when she does her big thing about, like, you know, finding your person, which is weird because. This is very Grey's Anatomy, isn't it? Well, that's what we refer to, like, dogs. Like, you know, when I talk about, like, my dog being too anxious or attached, he's like, oh, well, you're just her person.

And I'm like, yeah, that's a thing for dogs, not for people's true yeah like this is i don't know this was like a way more effective coming of age story than i remembered it yeah being and especially because it's it's for the second coming of age that people do because most coming of age stories are around like teens like oh i'm in high school yeah and then which she did later with like Lady Bird I think Melissa said it when she was like oh so like Lady Bird is like the prequel to Francis Ha

and Lady Bird eventually becomes Francis Ha because we've already seen her family in Sacramento and she like started to galaxy brain it oh wow there's a conspiracy theory that's some headcanon right there we gotta take another quick break, but then hey, guess what? We'll come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese

investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers.

And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Catherine Han is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.

I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hanken's thing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song?

Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Luge. I'm not going to hawk this slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it.

It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is

my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Sanner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Can we talk Francis Undateable really quick? Because that was like the one part of this movie other than like the, I mean, it was the fly in my soup of the cinematic experience. Yes. Like it was, I didn't like the implied potential romance with what's his name? Benji. Benji. I didn't like that. But it remained in the background enough of the movie

that it wasn't like distracting it certainly didn't ruin it for me but the whole like them trying to catch Frey haven't you said

this before that like a character as like a living studio note yeah it feels like maybe that's like you know someone

at pictures was like well there has to be some kind of you know flirt, flirtation, hetero love story in there. I want to give Greta Gerwig the credit and say that I don't think that this was her idea. Yeah. Like, because the focus of the movie for the most part remains on Francis and Francis and Sophie's friendship. Right. And like Francis sort of having to accept that compromise is a part of life but

with the benji stuff yeah like it does sort of he serves the best part of him i thought was him pointing out that she's not as like extremely poor as she makes herself out to be that was like a cool valid use of him but then like i didn't like the scenes where they're supposed to be flirting they're because he's nagging and they keep running into each other in the scenes where they're supposed to be flirting. Because he's negging her the whole time. And they keep running into each other in cute ways. And they're making it seem like, well, maybe. Will they? Won't they?

He's so tiny. The time we see them together, he is totally negging her. And then there's that weird scene where they're talking and he's in there. Oh, God. And it's like, I mean, I feel like a lot of people have had an experience like this that is just very uncomfortable where the guy's like you know everyone says we should date and then you're like oh really and he's like yeah but i was like no she's just cool and like that whole scene i mean it maybe bros right that scene made me cringe because it's like you know i've had that experience but then but then the fact that they still kind of present him as romantically viable after you find out he's that kind of, like, weird guy just didn't feel great.

Right. I just didn't like that. And the fact that he's constantly negging her is what I think the movie frames as a flirtation technique for him. He's like, oh, well. Yeah, just by implying that he's still on the table. I feel like that made it seem like he's just awkward.

Let's try to reframe this as artistic merit. So, isn't it so like true to life though that like, you know, even though she finds her voice artistically, which in and of itself

is a compromise of what she saw as her artistic path. She still might end up with a loser. She still might end up with like, meh, just some guy. She still might end up with a loser. She still might end up with like, just some guy.

Just some like neggy, tiny little man. Yeah. Who like kind of, you know, teases her and probably the more successful she gets as a choreographer, he's gonna like, it's gonna be a little weirder and more resentful. Yeah. Where I decided I was done with that character officially

was when he was like, you should leave your door open. when that part when he at the end of the scene where he's been nagging her the whole time he's like we should date but no we shouldn't like that whole fucking look i mean truly coming from i i have here's my deep shame i have dated a brooklyn trust fund boy uh his father used to be the president of something called... Enron. No. No, it was called the Patriotic Millionaires. It was really bad. It was a very troubling seven weeks of my life. Anyways, like most trust fund boys in Brooklyn,

he very abruptly married a graphic designer. You go to the store. Is that triggering for anyone? You go to the wing. They put them all in the window you go to the wing all the graphic designers are just kind of lined up in a window like puppies they have a little cut up newspaper for them to play around in sure and he's like pass by and you're like that one exactly yeah there she is uh so anyways wish him the best whatever but like that that

like a whole that whole vibe being presented as like maybe this will work out i'm just like no this shouldn't even for like a realist movie please let's just like let's let's spare francis ha the potential of this douchebag i felt a little bit the opposite in that moment that after he was a dick the one even though it was didn't come off court right the one nice thing he said was like I'll leave it open in case you need anything and I was like oh okay See I hated that, she said closed and then he convinced her

to leave it open cause he was like open or close and she's like oh probably close and he's like well but what if you What if you need me? Right and then she's like okay open that I was just like, oh, you fucking Brooklyn boys,

I hate you. Shredded newspaper to play around in. I was done with him as soon as he said, yeah, my buddy at SNL is going to get me a job. Oh my God. So upset, yeah.

We all have a buddy at SNL. Literally everyone in this room has a buddy at SNL and we're not aware. I've got two. Yeah, you've got two. And like, guess what?

Guess what, motherfucker? They're not getting you a job. That sort of posturing, you're just like, yep, that man exists. It was such a good character portrait, though, where it's just like, here is me floating through life. Yeah, it's gonna happen. Or if that doesn't happen,

then, you know, this other thing that I'm doing is gonna happen. So many different takes on the Brooklyn douchebag. Well, that's the thing. This movie does a really good job at showcasing mostly unlikable people because well maybe this is uh the time to get into like francis as a manic pixie dream girl type but sure she because she's right a more, less exaggerated version of this trope. Because I actually, I mean, she has those tendencies, but I feel like I know people basically just like her. So it didn't feel like she was like this caricature. Yeah, what sucks is it suffers because I think it did a pretty good job of just creating a sort of slightly eccentric character, but that is living under this looming shadow

of this broad, shitty archetype that we've lived with for so long. I did do a bit of homework. I wrote something down. Oh, please, please. Which I think this is like some weird Noah Baumbach, I don't know whose idea it is, like sort of Easter egg as to like,

this is the key to the movie, sort of. Please go off, queen. Okay, the opening montage, where it's sort of like the friendship montage. Yeah. They're kind of hanging out, they're playing in the park, they're talking. And I think this is on purpose because there's a lot of moments where it just shows them talking but the dialogue is unintelligible. Right.

And then there's one moment where they're sitting on the couch and Frances looks up from her book. She goes, oh, this is interesting. Listen to this. And this is the quote she reads from the book that she's reading, which I don't know if it was made up for the movie or it's actually from something but she says to praise a work of literature by calling it sincere is now at best a way of saying that although it may be given no aesthetic or intellectual admiration and then it like cuts off into the next shot so I'm kind of like oh it's a weird thing to bring up with a lot of qualifiers about like

although or that sincerity is now an excuse for basically I think it's saying that like to say that sincerity is a compliment is to just sort of um you know avoid the question of like intellectual or aesthetic merit so to say something say something has artistic merit by dint of just being sincere is basically to just say it's not good any other way. Right. It's like if you're describing a person who is, like, very boring, you say, oh, but they're really nice. They're really down to earth. Yeah.

But she also, like, it also cuts off the quote. It's implied that there's a whole other clause to that sentence where this author, who may be real or someone they invented for this shot is going to explain or finish that thought or just like these guys they're tricky. I wonder if that's in response to

maybe one of Noah Baumbach's previous movies having been called Sincere and he's like well here's what I think about that. I've got to rewatchwatch squid and the whale i really hate it i saw it when i was like 15 i feel like that might be why i liked it i don't know i remember that someone masturbates in a library in that movie and that's legitimately all i remember and it's about divorce like i'm 15 that's the coolest thing i'm like they masturbated on screen and it's about divorce I masturbate sign me up

my parents are divorced I'm good for me I had the IFC channel not to brag wow what is bragging in this episode that's squirky

squirky as hell subscribe to IFC listen honestly canonically if you had the IFC channel when you were in middle school

high school you will end up dating a Brooklyn douchebag someday. It's unfortunately one of the sad facts of life. I wash my hands of them. Yes. Moving right along. I think that Frances, another thing that I picked up on a second watch was that I feel like she's kind of, in some ways, she's kind of supposed to be annoying. Like, there's that whole dinner scene that at the time, when I first saw it, I was like,

oh, this is, like, Manic Pixie Dream Girl, boring, dumb. But if she were a true Manic Pixie Dream Girl, people would be very charmed and really like her. Or they would be, like, or they would be painted as, like, broad, like, asshole so that you sympathize with the character. But you're on the side of the people who have to endure whatever weird, she's being annoying stuff. Yeah, they're nice people trying not to let this girl ruin their dinner party.

And then there's another scene where I think it's Rachel, her dance friend who she stays with. She's, I guess, trying to find a new best friend because Sophie is effectively another thing that happened yeah and then so she's like okay you're my new best friend Rachel let's play fight and Rachel's like what and then she keeps like kind of trying to push her and do this like play fight thing that she and Sophie used to do that we saw but like Rachel is not into it at all. She's just like, dude, what the hell? Because she pushes her out of frame.

It's so awkward. And it's like, oh, you're just hitting a woman. Right. And she doesn't think. You're striking another grown adult. And Rachel's being like, I don't want to do this. Please stop. And then she's just very annoyingly continuing to do it.

So yeah, that's. It's like, Frances, go to Al-Anon. Come on! Yeah, it's... Go to Uniqlo, at least. I don't know. Quit wearing leggings under dresses. If you're not going to go to Al-Anon

and recover from codependency, at least go to Uniqlo. I'll just say it. Go to Le Labo. What is that? Become an adult. Yeah, I don't know what that is. You don't know the cult of Le Labo?

No Christina shows me everything She brought me to Muji for the first time I don't know what that is either All I know is that like

if you're a woman and you live in Brooklyn and you have any money whatsoever actually even if you don't have money you like you're supposed to wear

scent from Le Labo it's just like fancy perfume specifically if you walk through like bushwick or ridgewood you're just you're just gonna get this general vibe but the air is just thick with the waft of us of something that you can't quite put your finger on and it's it's santal 33 oh

there's trends in perfume yeah i and it's only means so much coming from a flock of women who live in los angeles but I am very glad I don't live there. Hey, I read the cut. Listen, I read the cut until I ran out of five free articles, then I hard stop. You are not getting $5 a month. No, ma'am. Yeah, I don't know. I think that it is like what I first interpreted to be a manic pixie dream girl i think is actually more interesting which is a woman who seems to be like kind of aping manic pixie dream girls and it being annoying to see in the real world which is kind of cool yeah because i feel like a lot of young women i mean and i can't speak to right now but it's like i definitely had friends in like high school and

college who were going for that that it did not you know they saw like garden state and they're like oh what if i'm like that they're like what if i just made no sense and like you just and you see you see people have to course correct and have to like kind of like frances does she has to grow up yeah i think that's a it's a big part of like anyone's artistic awakening is realizing that you can't just act like an artist or be eccentric as a way of you know like masking your right the can we talk about the you have to earn it okay and of course there's like of the i feel like a lot of tropes are commented on in this movie in a way that I think is really cool and interesting.

It seems like, in retrospect, I feel like the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope is pretty heavily commented on in this movie in a way that I thought was generally pretty effective. One of the things that I'm just exhausted by, and it will be done forever, is New York is a character and I it was my understanding based on some bare bones research that the scene there was like really the only scene I remembered from this movie was Greta Gerwig dancing in the crosswalk to modern love which I guess is paying uh homage to a different movie every time I go into a crosswalk in New York I end up punching a car. That's not what happens to me. Why don't we see that? But yeah, so the whole, like, I feel like the whole this movie would have been cool to see, like, the whole New York as a character trope

like, commented on more thoroughly, but it didn't really, and I don't know. I mean, New York is one character in movies all the time. We were talking about the, like, because I was watching this with my boyfriend and we were trying

to think of like, is there an LA equivalent to this movie? Just like a low key, I mean there's so many movies set in and about LA with like LA as a character but they're fucking crazy.

I think like the best ones that are about LA, like Mulholland Drive and Repo Man, I'm like yeah, they got it. But where's the one that's just like,

maybe it would be too bad. Like, yeah, white kids lolling around talking about their dreams. And like not in a way that's making fun of people who want to be actors. Like, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if this is a good example, but like Ingrid Goes West. Is that sort of fish? I think the commentary was a little ham-fisted. I feel like there was a little ham-fisted. Visually, they got the lifestyle pretty good.

I don't know. There's, well, Christina, is there not a documentary? Oh, there's a really good three-hour video essay by this filmmaker, Tom Anderson, called Los Angeles Plays Itself. And it's a really beautiful commentary about how Los Angeles is depicted in movies, kind of writ large. LA is a character, but also LA disguised as other cities, which is a big part of making movies here. But it's amazing because the whole movie, it's three hours, and it's completely cut from other movies with Tom Anderson just sort of narrating and analyzing over it. That's really cool.

And we don't need that movie about New York, so. I feel like it's made itself over and over. Well, we'll tweet out a link to that. Yeah. That sounds, yeah, I'm excited to watch that. Isn't it just like Philip, the equivalent would be like a Philip Ross novel. I don't know. Speaking of cities that play themselves in movies constantly ad nauseum,

Greta Gerwig goes to Paris in this movie. I feel like it's really New York and Paris are the cities that do it to the point where you're like, I just never need to see this again in my entire life. Or at least the kind that is presented. But I feel like in this movie, Paris as a character is commented on. Where this was one of the parts. Oh, yeah. Like, this is, yeah, we were talking about, like, this was a scene that I think I was, I don't really remember.

But I definitely didn't understand the point of her going to Paris by herself and being miserable. And I think my first read of it when I was much younger was like, oh, what a whiner. She's in Paris. This is so cool. And then I like the way that it's framed in the movie now, though, where it's clear that she can't afford to be doing this. It seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to her feeling insecure about her place in life.

She's just going into debt kind of for no reason to seem like she's doing better than she is. Well, it seems like, I thought that it was even smart in that she's going because she's seen too many movies where people find themselves in Paris. Sure, yeah. And she does this immediately after she hears from someone else that Sophie is moving abroad to Tokyo.

Right. So she's like, well, I can go go somewhere else too is what it feels like she's doing and the lesson is wherever you go you're still there you're still fucking depressed my friend so she sleeps through almost the entire time that she's there because she like stays up all night because she's like probably has like whatever she's on a different time zone she stays up way too late doesn't do anything she's like hanging out in the apartment and then she sleeps till like 4 p.m. the next day

and like has wasted pretty much the whole day and then she's calling her friend who's there, can't get a hold of her. So like essentially does nothing with her time. Gets a hold of her

at the last minute and it's too late. When she's already on her way back to New York. It sucks. Like it's... I think the worst part and I think this speaks

to her codependent behavior. The only reason why her trip is so short because she's blowing all her money on the plane ticket she has a free place to stay is she's like I have to go now but I have to be back Monday at 3pm to have this important meeting with my boss and

she can't even doesn't even have the wherewithal to reschedule it ahead of time and even when she gets there her boss is like i almost canceled it this morning because like i had gas or whatever yeah god i that that i've done that i've rushed back from somewhere to be disappointed and dismissed like it just or just to be at a thing that you felt was more important than the other person did that like it could have been changed oh Oh, it's so embarrassing. Like, wait, you flew back from Paris

to be at this meeting? It all has to do with the fact that her character has not fully grown up. Even though she's 27, she's still rather immature. She's not very self-aware. She needs to have a second coming of age as, you know, many people are in their 20s.

If she were 22, it would be adorable. Right right. Maybe. Because she's a handful of years older yeah it starts to look I don't know I mean but that was what I really like something I really liked about the movie was like I mean having to learn how to hedge your expectations. We talk that and I mean we talk about this here and there but representation of female mediocrity. We will not achieve equality until mediocre women can also. Are as interesting as mediocre men. Exactly.

Which is like most of these Brooklyn movies, as mediocre men feeling bad for themselves. I'm going to start the greatest denim company in New York. Is that a movie? I don't know. Oh, yes, there is. There was one called Making It in America, and it was a show. I think it was on HBO about two guys trying to start a denim company. Oh, right.

I feel sick. A gritty, crime-ridden denim company. A really groundbreaking show. They do the distressing by just firing AK-47s at it. How crazy would it be to pitch a show about a woman trying to start an Etsy store

in Brooklyn? And have it not be a joke. This is a very serious... Have you seen the show Girlboss? That's what that is. Well, it was bad. It was canceled after one season. But it was, like, that was... I mean, that movie was...

That show was dog shit, but it was female meaty. Yeah, but it was dog shit just because everyone did a bad job on it. The idea itself is not horrible. Like, I liked seeing... And I feel like, again, it's, like like representing women in movies should not be this hard but it is where I feel like we have sort of had in recent years an influx of

hashtag inspirational Mary Sue type characters who we need to see succeed at the end of the movie because that is the first step of representation is seeing someone in the most perfect light possible to justify their existence at all. Yeah.

Right. And then. We can trickle down to more nuanced representation. Right. And in this way, it's like it does still feel like it's like, well, we can only see it when it's like a pretty like Western beauty standards, middle class white lady. Right. But you still see, like, a more nuanced female character

than you normally would. You are allowed to see her fail and, like, struggle with that and need to... Like, it's cool. I don't know. I do, like, I think about this a lot, and I'm like,

the wider, wider question is, like, and I think it just gets to the heart of, like, the idea of the individual in a western social manager is that like why do I have to see myself reflected in media yeah this and that is but that is so deep I don't think we'll ever get to the point where we can actually interrogate that because it is important but and now we're at the point where you kind of have to just cherry pick it one at a time like okay Frances Ha okay we're gonna have a character that's like kind of doesn't succeed and this is about compromise but she has to be like blonde and cute that's like yeah if she's maybe a person of color well then well we gotta like

up it here you know what I mean and it feels like I don't know if we're obviously we're not there no because even when it happens it feels like a balancing act of like, I have to check these boxes and uncheck these to make this cultural product palatable and marketable. I mean, we kind of talked about that on the Booksmart episode where they like, they clearly had like a quote woke list where it's like, all right, we want to talk about these things as it pertains to, you know, women and feminism and things like that, but then they erased women of color from the whole movie.

That's the question of ethics versus artistic merits. It's like, okay, well, if you're going to make there's a reason why we make fun of after-school specials, because they're morality plays. They are moral statements disguised as entertainment. There's a fine line between creating like equitable representation versus like, well, I'm just checking the like the morality boxes at the expense of, you know.

But maybe that's bullshit, too, because if the whole history of the medium is predicated on exclusion, then the question of good or bad does become moral as well. You sound like such a scholar. Christina's brilliant. I wrote this down. I was having a text. I think this is true. I was having a text conversation with my boyfriend. We were arguing about, like, craft and ethics.

Your boyfriend? Get out. Yeah, I'm sorry. No boys allowed. Sorry. My hetero life partner. Supplied to me by Lord Bezos. No, what were you saying? i was just getting so mad i mean and he i don't know how this started but we were he was like trying to buy a rug from afghanistan then we got into this whole argument about ethics

and art and i just tried to like end it by saying like the ethics of art is just a mobius strip of necessary and good on one side and then the immoral on the other side and history just kind of paints them both different colors until they bump into each other and he was like dude i saw the avengers with you we both know that's how robert downey jr invents time travel i mean these things are um it's also yeah historically determined so who knows like 20 years from now this movie or Booksmart are going to seem so pat and cloying. When we're still doing the podcast

20 years from now. Hulled over a garbage can fire. But her emails. Knee deep in water. Almost. My sugar crystals are actually just parts of the barrier reef and they melt

in my coffee we'll have a little generator and a floaty I love you wearing floaties it's gonna be Isaac on a bicycle that's how we run

the generator and that's our feminism at this point that men are electricity now I think it's interesting that you describing almost as a a scale uh more of

like well if this is true then this needs to because it does seem like female representation in general like it is like if if these things are flawed then these things need to be yeah quote unquote not flawed and like i mean could you make a movie like Frances Ha with a non-white character at this time? I don't know that that would have experienced success in the same way that this movie did, or that it would have been accepted in the same way this movie did. And that's worth discussing. And I think that that is like something that is still present in as much as I like enjoyed it. And I thought it was a fun romp ramp of a movie like Booksmart to me felt like to an extent like kind of a checklist-y kind of movie

and the good thing about that means that at least hitting some points like that is now marketable and is now like something that people will give you money to make if you're a very famous white lady already but you

know it's like at least the idea of movies that feature women that are flawed to an extent as marketable is really cool and indicates progress. And I don't know. I feel like this movie, like Francis Ha is almost like a little bit of an outlier. I mean, it also helps that it was really cheap to make. It's a $3 million budget. Oh, yes. So super, super cheap.

I'll Venmo it. No one in this movie was really famous yet. I feel like Noah Baumbach is most likely the reason that this got made because he had had a few successes already.

Yeah, and it was like, I think this is her first movie that she co-wrote. That's assuming a lot. Did she write any of these mumblecore? Also, I will say she's a very good actress

because I think, this movie I just felt like, oh my gosh, she's just being sort of awkwardly herself. But then I saw 20th Century Women. I'm like, oh, Greta Gerwig, she's a real actress because she plays a much more,

also a weird artist, but more articulate kind of together. I'm like, oh, a character that I don't conflate with Greta Gerwig. So I don't know if she's written. Her first credited writing I'm like, oh, a character that I don't conflate with Greta Gerwig. So I don't know if she's written. Her first credited writing thing is like, because she made a bunch of Joe Swanberg movies. So for those who aren't, Joe Swanberg was like Mr. Mumblecore. He lived in Chicago.

He made that shitty Netflix show Easy. Sorry if you liked it. I thought it was shitty, but whatever. He made a bunch of these early Mumblecore movies. So her first credited writing credit was on a 2007 movie called Hannah Takes the Stairs. Haven't seen it. Oh, yeah. But that was her first.

Cannon Mumblecore. And then she directed her first movie. She directed a Mumblecore movie in 08 that she wrote as well. But this is, I mean. Oh, was Lady Bird not her first direct? I thought that was her directorial debut, but... Nice. I'm gonna go ahead and say I think Noah and Greta, greater than the sum

of their parts. I agree. I like this better than Lady Bird and I definitely liked it better than anything Noah Baumbach has done. I definitely like... This is my favorite. I mean, I'm pretty sure I've only seen two or three. He made that shitty movie with ben stiller right greenberg yeah is that right okay i mix up noah bombach and joe swanberg all the time because i just really don't care about one

makes more money that's true that's true and for a man we gotta hand it to them uh greta gerwig's uh directorial debut was a mumblecore flop with Joe Swanberg, but it was made for $15,000. Oh, sure. So, you know, like, I think Lady Bird was her, like, her big one. Yeah, it's credited as her solo directorial debut. Co-directed in 08. Okay, got it.

Either way, this was Greta Gerwig's big break, I think, is, like, it's viewed as. And I think that that is great and a slight a very slight tip of the hat to Noah Baumbach for um really featuring her and giving her the credit she deserves because it seems like there's if this movie I would guess if this movie was just written by Noah Baumbach it wouldn't have had the focus on the female friendship it wouldn't have had the focus on her and it wouldn't have had the focus on the female friendship. It wouldn't have had the focus on her,

and it wouldn't have reflected her experience as well as it does. No, it's funny. I remember when it came out, reading an interview with Noah Baumbach, which, if I remember correctly, it's funny that there was a magazine piece just about Noah Baumbach for the release of this movie. Of course. Naturally.

He did say that, yeah, it was kind of, he had to coax her into writing it because at that time in her life, I think she was probably like 27 or maybe a little later, almost 30. And she was sort of venting about these frustrations in her own career. And he was just like, that's fascinating. Write it down but so um which is the point is that like you need a man to point out to what's interesting about you and what's worthy about you artistically in order to put it out into the world yeah and i feel like it's almost a reflection of the okay i want to give an example from a friend that who may or may not have been on this podcast previously but i don't know if she wants me to put her on blast that way. But an example of like how I think women very often are trained to underestimate themselves

for things that men will just be like, oh, of course I can do this. And how at times having a male ally to tell you, you know, no, you are ready to do this is important. And I think like that is a cool, like my, but my, my, my dear friend was considering running for office inside of like this social group that she had, she'd been a part of for almost two years,

but then was repeatedly saying like, I don't know if I'm ready. I don't know if like people take me seriously enough. I don't know if I've proven myself in this group quite enough. And then when they were announcing, okay, who's going to run for this position three guys who had been there less than a month were like i think i'm ready and so then that was what yeah convinced her of like no

i've fucking been ready for this all these people who just got here think that they're ready and so i mean for better or worse that's a real thing and that's important like yeah slight props to noah bombach for you know saying what deservedly needed to be said. Because she was ready. I'm going to go out into the street and ask all the dudes if I'm ready. Only they will be able to tell you. Well, all I have to say, if you are a man with any power or influence that is in a position to, you know. Encourage.

Yeah. Lift up. Produce. Yeah, like put, encourage. Yeah. Lift up. Produce. Yeah. Like put the spotlight on someone who deserves it that hasn't had it yet. Go down on without expecting anything in return. Yes. Don't always choose the person who has exactly your experience or nothing will ever happen.

Yeah. Ding. One little just quick thing I wanted to point out is in the beginning when Francis and Sophie are still getting along splendidly they're talking about their futures and the things that they want and they're like yeah we'll do this

I think this is when this it's at a point in the movie where they're getting along and they're close they say we'll have lovers and no children. And I just appreciate visibility for women who don't want to have kids. As a woman who does not want to have children, it's always refreshing to see that represented on screen. Yeah.

So the end. I like it. I like it all. Is there anything else that anyone wanted to hit on before we I've been to Paris Christina how could you

have gone this far into this episode without announcing it so I just wanted to say that as someone who kind of found herself in Paris at one point

in 2013 actually the year after this movie came out I mean it couldn't have happened before it was the kind of thing where I got off the plane and I remember thinking, oh my god, like

it actually does look, Paris looks like Paris. It looks like exactly every postcard and movie and thing you've seen and there's something deeply sad about that. And I just I haven't recovered. I have to go back every month. Absolutely, yes. Well, luckily you have that free place to stay.

Yes. I like to blurt that out at dinner parties. I've been to Paris. I mean, yes. Well, luckily, you have that free place to stay. Yes. I'd like to blurt that out at dinner parties. I've been to Paris. I mean, honestly, yeah, if we're out and more than two seconds passes, she says it.

Any lull of silence in the car? I've been to Paris. I've been to Paris. Do you have an iPhone charger I can use? May I just say? You can go to casinos

and do that. I've been to Paris. Big money, biginos and do that. I've been to Paris. Big money, big money, big money, I've been to Paris. If you lose on a slot machine, I've been to Paris. Knock the whole thing over. How is that possible?

May I just say that I've been to Paris. No, there can only be one. Have we learned nothing from female protagonists? Let's fight each other. Regretfully, I have also I went in 2010, so I only be one. Have we learned nothing from female protagonists? Let's fight each other. Regretfully, I have also been to Paris. I went in 2010, so I went there first.

Okay, well, clearly, yeah, someone who does things the first time is the only time that it matters. So, okay, I concede. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Who won the podcast today? Is there a question? Yeah, I think that was all I had to say about the film.

I just, I guess, yeah, this was one of the few examples in the history of this podcast that I have gone back and rewatched a movie and looked on it fonder than I did when I first watched it. Oh, very quick. I did want to say, I mean, I had a fabulous time and it was a really great discussing movie. It was pretty low on my list. Yes, for five options. And this was like probably fifth. And I was like, really? We already did Josie and low on my list. Yes, for five options. And this was like probably fifth. And I was like, really? We already did Josie and the Pussycat.

Oh, really? I thought I looked at the thing. Well, you're done. Fucked up. And we have to end on a shaming our guests. We have to do it. We simply had to. Save me, Lord Bezos.

She just got beamed up. She's got. See ya. She's in his ship now. I'm glad we reviewed this, though. And I think, yeah, I'm glad we did it. To those who requested it, I hope you enjoyed it. But ladies, does it pass the Bechdel test?

Oh, I don't think. No, yes, it does. It super does. I think so. Oh, yeah. There's some really quirky grading passes of the Bechdel test, which is a new subsection of the test. Is it a quirky pass? But there's a lot of, but yeah, it's like, you know, Sophie and Frances are talking.

Rachel and Frances are talking. It passes in like the first 10 seconds. Yes. Yeah, and continues to do so. She's like, I wouldn't eat a dog. And it's like, yeah, you would. Oh, the last thing I did want to say is I liked representation of a failed attempt at being a guy's gal for a couple of months. I have also tried to be a guy's gal for a span of months.

It never ends well. And I was like, Lord Bezos, make me not like other girls. Exactly. She is, oh, it is nice to see a girl like, I'm not like the other girls, and see it be like, oh, it would actually be really chill if I could hang out with my friend who's a girl again. Yeah. Much, much better. It does pass the Bechdel test.

It sure does. Yeah. And shall we just... Give it a little rating? Give it a little rating? Sure. How many stars? What's the...

Oh, we'll tell you. Nipple scale. Yeah. So we've got a nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its representation and treatment of women i'd say i'm between like a three and a three and a half on this where largely the movie is about a female friendship which as we've said before and we'll say again is not the focus of most movies so it's because most movies the focus is either a hetero relationship between a man and a woman or it is

two boys the boys are there and they're having a friendship so nice to see female friendship celebrated and as we've discussed in a way that is not like a perfect Mary Sue kind of thing where it's just like oh look how awesome these women are and they're just so they get along so well because that is not representative of real life so we get to see these two different characters grow apart come back together again all this stuff because of their you know individual nuances and issues that they have and are you know trying to grow from and move through and all that stuff so nice to see fairly well rounded characters and in their friendship and that be the focus of the movie. You know, female mediocrity is something that we do appreciate

and Francis is... Francis, I don't know. I'm like, she's not mediocre. She's just had to accept that she's not good at everything and had to find out what she was good at and accept it. That was cool.

And again, realistic. I'm addicted to accepting my limitations. Just kidding. Very refreshing to see on screen. Yeah. But then, you know, there's some issues and that it's, you know, oh boy, is it a white movie? They don't have any friends who are people of color.

And I don't think that I remember seeing. Not to open a can of worms, but like, is that, that's kind of like a moral fear, but is it an artistic failure? Because these kind of people probably don't have friends of color, right? Yeah, I just feel like they're always in a position to do it. It's just a little boring too. It's just boring, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, right, would like a Brooklyn trust fund bro have like a black friend? I don't know. Maybe not. But why are we making movies about people like that then? I just, any all white New York movie, I'm just like, you were in a creative position to make this not the case. Right. Yes.

So. I feel like the most diverse scene we saw was when she's teaching the ballet class. Her ballet class, the little girls were it was a very diverse group of little ballerinas oh cute yeah so yeah i think i'll think i'll settle on a 3.5 and i'll give one to greta i'll give one to the actor who plays sophie I'll give one to our super producer Sophie. Yay! And I'll give my final half nipple to the

hairless cat that maybe the boyfriend ended up getting. Maybe not. We don't know. I'm going between three and a half feels right, but I'm tempted to go for four. I don't know.

I guess for whoever's making the Wikipedia page, you put down three and a half or four. Up to you. I give you the editorial power. That is some power. Because I do agree that I think whenever there is a director, writer, you are in a position to be inclusive and when you make the choice not to, that choice should be justified in a way that's more than like, well, it wouldn't

you know, like it just kind of like a wincy kind of response to it doesn't really it just seems like it's kind of like, I don't know it doesn't work for me but I got this movie wrong the first time and I have grown to really appreciate it. There were parts of this movie that were genuinely difficult for me to watch because I saw elements of myself or my own friends.

I mean, I think that it is a pretty accurate depiction of a, like, and I hesitate to put the word millennial into this podcast at all but we're out into the world further but like but someone who has been you know grew up being told they could do anything uh then encounter the financial and personal obstacles that make it clear that that is kind of an empty promise and navigating their way and finding their place. It is something that is very hashtag relatable to a lot of women and also people. I think that this is like, that men can also take a lot away from this movie

and it's not specifically a women's movie, which is really cool. And I think Greta Gerwig does a great job. It's like mumblecore-ish in a way that isn't like distracting to me. And I don't know. I think it was like just the right amount of pathetic in a way that made me uncomfortable for hours afterwards. All right. Because everyone is a little bit pathetic.

And seeing it on screen is not a comfortable experience, but a poignant one. So I'll go with a three and a half or a four and let history decide which I chose. I'll give one to Frances Hall. I'll give one to Sophie. I'll give one to the lady that Greta Gerwig works for who's like, I don't even remember my work. I don't even remember it's my work after it happens. The baldest woman in charge.

The baldest woman in charge. Yeah. And then I'll give half a nipple to the city of New York. Oh my gosh. Or a half a nipple or a full nipple. Depending on who. Okay.

Christina. All right. Quattro nipples. One nipple for Mickey Sumner. One nipple for Benji's friends at SNL. One nipple for Mickey Sumner. One nipple for Benji's friends at SNL. One nipple for taking the whole crew to Paris to film a three minute scene.

Half nipple for saying the name of the movie in the movie all the way at the very end and you're like, wow, I get it. And obligatory half nipple tithing to my lord and savior Jeff Bezos oh I love it

Christina thank you so much for being here thank you for having me I'm clapping for myself we genuinely did clap when Frances Haug we're like yes it all makes sense now it's all coming together

it's like when they say the Winter Soldier. You're like, whoo! Like, it's just crazy. You want to know where you can find me on the... Please. Where are you? Follow me on Instagram. I put everything there.

Links to usually... If I write something or I'm doing shows, I put it all there. I'm bad at updating my website, but there's my comedy videos and writing there, which is linked from Instagram anyway so it's at we use the at symbol Xtina

underscore Catherine with a C because Christina Catherine doesn't fit in the username box I see but that's good stuff you should follow me there please follow you can find us on all the stuff we're at Facebook and Twitter and Instagram at Bechtelcast you can find our on all the stuff. We're on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram, at Bechtelcast.

You can find our Patreon, a.k.a. Matreon, patreon.com slash Bechtelcast, $5 a month. We'll get you two extra episodes and access to the full back catalog. What a darn good special. You can also check out our merch store at tpublic.com slash the Bechtelcast. Oh, my goodness. The Bechtelcast. I slash the Bechtelcast Oh my goodness. The Bechtelcast. Icona Bechtelcast. Do you see where I was going?

The Icona Class? Yes. Is it a lurch store for lady merch? Go on. Am I doing it right? Yes, this is feminism. Yeah, thank you for listening as always and we will see you next week. See you next week.

Bye-bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour.

If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.