The Bechdel Cast - Get Out with Korama Danquah

Episode Date: October 24, 2024

On this episode, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Korama Danquah discuss Get Out! Here are the articles we cite: the NextShark piece "Why ‘Get Out’, a Movie About Anti-Black Racism, Had an Asian Character" - https://nextshark.com/get-out-film-asian-character-racism-llag / the Bustle piece "Why The Asian Character In 'Get Out' Matters" - https://www.bustle.com/p/why-the-asian-character-in-get-out-matters-so-much-42569 / and the Slate piece "The Disturbing Truth That Makes Get Out Depressingly Plausible" - https://slate.com/culture/2017/03/get-out-and-americas-many-missing-black-people.html  Follow Korama at @koramadrama on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, etc!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Julian Edelman. I'm Rob Gronkowski. And we are super excited to tell you about our new show, Dudes on Dudes. We're spilling all the behind-the-scenes stories, crazy details, and honestly, just having a blast talking football. Every week, we're discussing our favorite players of all times, from legends to our buddies to current stars. We're finally answering the age-old question,

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Listen to Jimmy's three things on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by HoneyGerman where we get real and dive straight into todo lo actual y viral. We're talking music, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura. I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors,

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Hi, I'm Eva Longoria. Hi, I'm Maite Gomez-Rejon. Our podcast, Hungry for History, is back. And this season, we're taking a bigger bite out of the most delicious food and its history. Seeing that the most popular cocktail is the Margarita, followed by the Mojito from Cuba, and the Piñu Colada from Puerto Rico.

Listen to Hungry for History on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast,

start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Clink, clink, Jamie, you're getting very sleepy. Wow, I passed out. It's done, it's done. Oh, that was so easy. Yeah, I know, I know. I mean, that's what the movies are about. Oh, goodness.

Welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. Clink clink, my name is Jamie Loftus and this is our podcast where we talk about your favorite movies from an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechtel cast test. We've been doing this for eight years

as a jumping off point for discussion. But Caitlin, what the hell is that? Oh gee whiz, it's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test. It has many versions and ours is this do two characters of a marginalized gender have names do they speak to each other and is the conversation about something other than a man and we especially like it when it's a narratively meaningful conversation and not just, you know,

throw away dialogue. Very true. And today we're doing one of our rare do-over episodes. We are covering the 2017 movie, Get Out. If you are a matriarch subscriber, which you should be, this was, I think, the first matriot episode we ever did that was a live, okay, listen. It was a moment in time.

Listen, okay, so the circumstances under which we recorded our first Get Out episode was in the basement of a pizza parlor in Brooklyn. Yeah, as a part of a comedy festival, I don't remember which one but one that was comfortable putting us in the basement of a pizza parlor. to a live podcast show to the point where there was not a sound system that allowed us to record audio from the soundboard, which is how we would normally record audio from a live show. And there weren't even enough microphones.

Jamie and I had to share a microphone. Yes, and we only had like a half hour. So anyways, and this was also, to give us some criticism as well. This is before we kind of realized that a movie that requires a lot of discussion is maybe not ideal for a live show. So a lot, like we didn't have enough time.

We didn't know how to do a live podcast. It was 2017 and we want to resolve this because Get Out deserves better. So today we are recovering Get Out in the Year of Our Lord 2024 with an incredible guest. A returning guest. Yes. A friend of the pod. Indeed. She's a writer, actor. She wrote on iCarly and Raven's Home. You remember her from our episodes on the movies, Us and Cheetah Girls. It's Carama Donkwa.

Hello. Hello. Welcome back. Hi. Thank you so much for having me back. I hope I'm like a best friend of the pod. Like, you know, best friends a tear. I like to think I'm a best friend of the pod. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I don't want to like force it or anything. But it's happening naturally.

Three timers club. Yeah, three Pete. I love, I also love that, yeah, I kind of forgot what a wide range of movies we've covered with you. Yeah, yeah. Two Jordan Peele movies now and Cheetah Girls. Yes. One cinema classic and two Jordan Peele movies now and Cheetah Girls. Yes. One cinema classic and two Jordan Peele films.

Exactly. Yes, exactly. Yes. And of course, shout out to our guest on the original episode, Ray Sauny. And shout out to anyone who was there at the pizza parlor. Not on Ray and not on the pizza parlor attendees. Yes.

We take full accountability. Plus the comedy fuzzle, which I don't remember the name of. So yeah, whatever. I am because Ray was, you know, like precisely. And yes, we're so excited to have you to talk about this movie. Karama, what's your relationship with Get Out? What is my relationship with Get Out? I went to see it. You know, it's so funny? Because I'm going to tell a story that's going to sound almost identical to my story about us. I went to go see it in theaters with my friend Mike. I went and saw us with my other friend

Mike. I have a lot of white men, different Mike, friends that are named Mike. Don't we? And some non-white Mike's, Michaels, in my life. But most of them are white men named Mike. But I went and saw it in the Cinerama Dome, RIP. And I didn't know a ton before I went and saw it. My friend Mike, this particular Mike, is kind of always like, come see this movie. And I just go. And that's how I saw Moonlight.

Also, we went to an advanced screening of Moonlight together. He doesn't have a lot of black friends, so he tends to see black movies with me, which is fine. I love that for him. I'm not upset about it. But we went to an advanced screening of Moonlight at LACMA, and Janelle Monae was there and I my breath gone. Wow. They took it. Yeah. But so I went and saw it at the Cinerama Dome and

I love horror and I love Jordan Peele and I love Daniel Kaluuya. I was a Skins person. My ringtone on my phone is the Skins theme song. No one ever hears it because my phone's on silent all the time but but I know. You know. Yeah. And I was really struck with Get Out how tight the script was and how well-constructed it was. I love a well-constructed piece of writing. Like, you know, the word playwright is spelled weird because a write is a builder and writing things is about like building them. And I think that Jordan Peele built a masterpiece. But yeah, that's where I'm at. And then I took my little brother to see it because I was like, this is important for him to see and no one else is gonna take him to see it. He was like 17 at the time too.

I was just saying, I was like, oh cool. Yeah, it was not his first rated R movie. I did show him his first rated R movie, which was Kick Ass. Okay, okay, yeah. Another solid choice. But I really wanted to like share it with my brother, especially because it has so much to do with the way that black men in particular are perceived in society.

And I don't think that my brother had somebody who was going to really talk to him about that and what it meant in the way that I was gonna like discuss the film with him. And like I get to discuss it with you two today. Yeah. Yes. I'm so excited. Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie?

My relationship with the movie is I didn't see it in theaters during its first run, which I really regret. I feel like early 2017 was just before I got a movie pass and before I knew Stubbs existed. So I just wasn't in the theaters a lot at this time. But I saw it later, I think later that year in 2017. And immediately it was like, fuck, I want to see this in a theater so badly. It took me a couple years, but I finally did see it.

I think I saw it at Viddiots maybe like a year ago or so, but it's just like you're saying, Karama, it's a masterpiece. It's so good. I feel like this movie, at least, I don't know. I mean, I'm, I'm a horror fan, but I don't know every single thing about horror, but it just seems like Get Out really kicked off a whole new generation of horror films, kind of for better or for worse. There's a lot of movies you'll see, like a lot of horror movies now. You're like, okay, you know, there's a lot of people that want wanna do what Jordan Peele does, but no one can, cause he's fucking incredible. And yeah, it was really interesting to go back and revisit this with sort of the knowledge of the better part of 10 years of clearly how this was, I feel like Get Out was sort of immediately a classic, but now seven years on, its influence is so, so present

to the point where like Jordan Peele has to work around the influence of this movie. Um, yeah, Daniel Kaluuya is incredible. I was not a skins head. I regret it. I was, I feel like I went the Degrassi way and then I never, I never went to England with my teen TV. I am bisexual.

I love both Degrassi's and Skins's. The two genders. Skins and Degrassi. Yes. But yeah, I was, I could have been watching Daniel Kaluuya, but instead I was watching a bunch of dork trinkets. I was watching, I know I was watching Drake. Huge L for me. But yeah, this was, I haven't seen it in about a year or so. But yeah, it's a masterpiece. And also just going back to, I've been re-watching a lot of horror classics lately and I recently re-watched Rose Marie's Baby and The Stepford Wives and a lot of things that going through this are, you know, very clear influences on

Jordan Peele and listening to him talk about it. It's just, it's great. Caitlin, what's your history with this movie? This is one of my favorite movies of all time. I agree that it's a masterpiece. I teach it in my screenwriting classes, using it as an example for many examples of what the movie does so well as far as crafting a story

and plan payoff and withholding information examples of what the movie does so well as far as crafting a story and plant and pay off and, you know, withholding information for later reveal and all this kind of stuff. So I am just astounded by this movie every time I watch it, because it holds up on a rewatch so, so well, the way that some horror movies or some movies with like a big twist don't hold up because then the story logic just kind of falls apart when you re-watch it after knowing the twist but this movie holds up so well and yeah I saw it in theaters um and it was one of my favorite theater going experiences ever I would say especially the very end yes when the cop car pulls up and you're like, fuck, the fear you feel for Chris. And

then the door swings open and it says airport and little rel steps out and the whole crowd screaming, cheering, just like it was incredible. Nobody has loved TSA as much as they did. I was gonna say February of 2017. What a moment for the TSA. Truly, I've never seen them get good press anywhere before or since. But yes, iconic TSA employee. Oh, god. Right, right, right.

So yeah, I had a great time singing in theaters. And yeah, I've seen this movie probably like 20 times now. And I love it. Let's take a quick break and then come back for the recap, shall we? Let's do it. Sounds great. ["Dude on Dudes"]

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Listen to Dudes on Dudes on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere.

Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him.

Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Piece,

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Black Lit is here to amplify the voices of black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Black Lit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, Jake Storielli here from John Boy Media. I wanna tell you about my podcast, Wake and Jake. It's your go-to spot for anything and everything sports. Baseball, football, basketball, hockey, golf, college,

whatever's hot in the street. We're talking about it on Waking Jake. So if you're a die-hard fan or looking for the latest buzz, we've got you covered, no matter your favorite sport. We're breaking it down with the passion that'll make you feel like you're in the stands with us. Plus, we've got a bunch of guests. Foolish Bailey, Jolly Olive, Chris Rose, and more. Mock drafts, rankings, whatever you want. It's the sports

world and come on and join our friends in the Wakin' Jake family. You will not regret it. So, new episodes Monday and Wednesday. You can watch along on the Wakin' Jake YouTube channel or listen to Wakin' Jake on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. I was going to say I forgot to mention, I think I mentioned this in our first go round of I saw like I saw the wrong Jordan Peele movie in theaters during this period of time. I did go to see Keanu in theaters.

Oh my gosh. Why? I mean, that's a fun movie. It has a cat in it. It's good. There's a cat. I literally, I got dumped by a prop comedian and I was just like, I gotta go do something.

And so I went to see Keanu and I was just like sitting in the back of Keanu crying. I'm sorry, that's so dark. Getting dumped by a prop comedian is, I know that you've gone through some shit, but that is probably the darkest thing I've ever heard you go through. That's kind of why it is like, once you've been

not just dumped, but cheated on by a prop comedian, you really, it really puts things into perspective. You're like, no one can truly hurt me ever again. Yeah. Wow. Anyways, Keanu is there for me. Glad to hear it. Yeah.

Oh, we should cover Keanu sometime on the podcast. Yeah. I mean, I haven't seen it since. I had negative, a strong negative association, but it was funny. It was anyways, yes. And that came out, I think, less than a year before Get Out, which is wild. The range.

Yeah, it came out like, I think, in the space of six months, I'm pretty sure both, if my breakup timeline is correct, both of these movies came out so close together. And that was the other really exciting thing thing was like Jordan, I mean, huge Kean Peel fan, obviously, like loved, loved, loved Kean Peel forever is like one of the best sketch comedy shows ever. And then just being like, and Jordan Peel can do this. Like it was just so fucking cool. So many comedians have tried to do it since and no one's pulled it off because he's just different.

He's great. Anyways, yeah, just wanted to shout out, we're all comedians here too. And seeing someone who is at the top of the sketch comedy world immediately also become one of the top auteurs in the world, it's just the coolest. And Get Out is super funny.

It's just, yeah, it's great. Yeah, yeah. He also, I mean, Jordan Peele talks about the similarities and parallels between horror and comedy and how they function so similarly as like storytelling devices. And so it just makes sense. Also the Gremlins 2 key and Peele sketch is like one of my.

I was like, where is this going? Okay. I watch it like once a month it's the funniest thing to me everyone pause this episode and go watch the gremlins to key and peel sketch it is incredible favorite key and peel sketch is the one about uh the two ethnic restaurants across the street from each other with the chibapi. And my mom loves that sketch so, so, so much because I think it kind of reminds her of like West African jalaaf wars. It's like, it's all rice, calm down. And I can say that I'm Ghanaian, we have the best jalaaf,

don't fight me. But I worked with Keek and Michael Key a couple years ago on a show and my mom was like Karama, tell him I love the Chipopi sketch. I was like okay mom I'll tell him and I didn't. He was like really that one? Look to each their own. I liked the Continental Breakfast one. Do you remember that one? That was always my favorite. Classic. But yes anyways listeners also let That was always my favorite. Classic. But yes, anyways, listeners also let us know what your favorite Q and Peele sketch is. It's just

amazing. And then this is beside the point, but here we are. Do you remember this was, I think, the same year that A Quiet Place 1 came out? And there was this brief moment where they're two brilliant auteurs, Jordan Peele and John Krasinski. And then I think we disabused ourselves of that pretty quickly. We're like one great auteur and John Krasinski. You didn't like If? What are you talking about? Oh God.

Wait, did he direct that? If or A Quiet Place? I think he wrote If or like developed If. If being like imaginary friend, right? Yeah. Wait, was that the horror movie that came out about imaginary friends? No, it was the nice one.

Or was that the family comedy? Okay, okay. It's the one that felt very Foster's home for imaginary friends, but like wasn't. Yeah. I saw imaginary, I think is what it was called. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The horror movie.

Oh, yeah. It was not good except the third act just goes off the rails in the most hilarious way. Highly recommend watching the third act of that movie. Anyway, we're here to talk about it. Yeah, I think what makes Get Out so good is that a lot of horror movies really fall apart in the third act. For sure. And this one is like, no, no, we're just getting better. Like a fine wine over time just to the last line like the uh the tsa line it's just um incredible all right yeah let's get into it sorry i just needed to do a quick key and peel diversion check in yes no important um so for the

recap forget out i'll place a content warning for anti-black racism and violence. So we open on a young black man played by Lakeith Stanfield who is walking in a suburb at night. He's trying to get somewhere, but he's kind of lost. And then a car approaches and starts creepily following him. The driver gets out wearing a like medieval helmet and attacks and abducts the man. We then meet Chris Washington played by Daniel Kaluuya, a photographer living in

I think New York City is where it's meant to be. He's dating Rose Armitage, played by Alison Williams, and they're about to leave on a weekend trip to visit her parents who Chris will be meeting for the first time. And he asks Rose, who is white, if her parents know that he's black. And she's like, no, but it's not a big deal. My parents aren't racist. And he's like, okay. Chris's friend Rod, played by Lil Rel Howrie, is similarly skeptical. He works for the TSA. That's his defining characteristic.

That's kind of all we know about him. He loves the TSA. Outside of the fact that he's Chris's best friend, he works for the TSA, and that is what we know. And he's a dog sitter on occasion. Yes, he's a dog lover. He's dog Sid and Chris's dog Sid while Chris is gone. And he jokes to Chris about how he

needs to be careful around these white people. He's like, don't go into their house. But despite Lil Rose's warnings, Chris and Rose head out on the road to her parents' house. They hit a deer that suddenly runs out on the road and Chris can't really do anything about it, but watch it slowly die. I know, we just watched Triangle of Sadness

and I was like, wait, they don't do a Triangle of Sadness animal sacrifice, do they? Then they don't. I was just thinking, what do they kill in Triangle of Sadness? It's like a- A donkey. A donkey, yeah, I don't know. I just had a flashback to that.

Anyways, we're spared that. Yes, so a cop shows up to this accident wanting to see Chris's ID, even though he wasn't driving and Rose implies that the cop is being racist. And so the cop concedes and leaves. They arrive at the armatouche house, this like, you know, large rich people home. We meet Rose's dad, Dean played by Bradley Whitford, and her mom Missy, played by Katherine Keener, and they seem warm and inviting to Chris. We also meet a groundskeeper and a housekeeper who work for the Armitage

family, Walter and Georgina played by Marcus Henderson and Betty Gabriel both of them are black and Chris can't help but notice that they seem kind of weird. Then Chris and the family get to know each other a bit more we find out that Chris's mom died in a car accident when he was a kid. Also Dean suggests that Missy hypnotize Chris to help him quit smoking. She's a psychiatrist and she's like developed this method of hypnosis. But Chris is like, um, no thanks. I'm good.

Then Rose's brother, Jeremy played by Caleb Landry Jones, shows up to the house. He's there for a party that Rose's grandfather used to throw every year while he was alive. And the family just like kept this tradition going of throwing this annual party. Jeremy is generally an asshole. He says some weird things to Chris about his physique and genetic makeup. He tries to play fight with Chris. And so there's, you know, weird vibes from him as well. And I know this isn't true,

but this is always the point in the movie where I'm like, is this supposed to be Jonah Paredi? Oh, because of Chelsea Paredi, who's famously a piece of shit anyways. Maybe. Jordan Peele says no. Well, I a piece of shit anyways. Maybe. Jordan Peele says no. Well, I think he'd have to. Yeah, I guess you can't be like.

Yes, it's my brother-in-law who I hate. Yeah, Mr. Buzzfeed himself. Gosh, so Rose is like, oh, sorry about my family. Maybe they are racist. And Chris is like, yeah, no shit, I told you so. Later that night, Chris can't sleep, so he goes outside for a cigarette. He sees more of Walter and Georgina being weird.

And when Chris goes back in, Missy reprimands him for smoking, and then she kind of coaxes him into being hypnotized. She's swirling a spoon around a teacup and she weaponizes the guilt that he feels about his mother's death. Catherine Keener is terrifying in this scene. Oh my gosh.

She's very, very scary. The performances all around in this movie are just like next level. Yeah, I mean, Daniel Kaluuya obviously is like, the reaction shots of him are like iconic at this point. But yeah, that like every single performance, it's so well cast. It's yeah, it's great.

He really shows that acting is reacting because he doesn't talk a lot. Yeah, he's a man of few words. He's very observant. Yeah, and not he doesn't he holds his cards a little close to the vest. Yeah, for sure. And I also I mean, just I didn't really think about it before. But like Jordan Peele's casting process, he's like chosen these white actors that are associated with these famous white liberal shows like Alison Williams is in

girls Bradley Whitford was in the West Wing. So it's like there's already this sort of subconscious association with white liberalism with the casting, too. And then the performances are just unbelievable. It's yeah, he's playing five D chess. It very much reminds me of Emerald Fennell's casting process for Promising Young Women, where she was like, I want all of the men to be like these lovable white boys that everybody is like, oh my god, he's the best. And then they're horrible sexual

assaulters. Right. And or complicit. Adam Brody, Bo Burnham. Yeah. Max Greenfield, my husband. Right. Yeah, I guess that never like really fully clicked for me on previous viewings. But I was like, wow, he's really playing a game of 5D chess for the viewers. So we're in the middle of this hypnosis scene. Chris is crying, he's scratching at the armchair. And then Missy puts him in the sunken place, where he's basically trapped in his own mind. He can see what's happening in the world around him from a distance but he can't move and he no longer has control over his own body. Cut to him waking up in bed. Things seem back to normal. He thinks it was

probably a dream and shortly after, guests start arriving for this party. They are almost entirely older, wealthy white people. They direct several racist microaggressions at Chris. And macroaggressions. Yeah. Just also, aggression. There's a lot of everything. My favorite of the aggressions is when when that woman looks at Rose and says,

is it better? Yeah. Oh my god. Lady. Yeah. And then Chris notices the one other black guest at the party and approaches him. We recognize him as the Lakeith Stanfield character we saw at the very beginning of the movie, although now he's acting and speaking and dressing very differently. And he seems to be like romantically with a much older white woman. So the vibes are very weird there. The interaction he has with Chris is very weird. And then Chris crosses Chris cross Chris crosses paths with a guy named Jim Hudson, played by Steven Root, who Chris had heard of because he's an art dealer. Jim knows of Chris as well because he's an admirer of Chris's photography, although he hasn't been able to see it because due to

a genetic disease, Jim Hudson went blind. And he explains that he has his assistant describe artists work to him in detail. So he knows if he wants to buy and deal it or not. Then Chris goes inside and we see that all the guests are hyper fixated on Chris being there. It's very eerie. The moment where he walks upstairs and everyone pauses is just like everyone's worst fear.

I remember that being in the trailer. You know, watching the trailer, you don't really know the context. So you're just like, what's going on? And then you see the movie and you're like, oh my God. But anyway, Chris calls Rod, who is convinced that the family is trying to hypnotize him and turn him into a sex slave. Chris is like, haha, I don't know. And then Chris has a bizarre

interaction with Georgina. We also have seen him have a similarly bizarre interaction with Walter. Those performances are also incredible from the actors playing Georgina and Walter. And then Chris returns to the party. He observes more of the Lakeith Stanfield character being weird, so Chris tries to take a picture of him on his phone in secret, but the flash goes off. And this seems to perhaps unhypnotize Lakeith's character and he screams at Chris to get out. Hey, that's the name of the movie! And we're like, whoa! Awesome! And the family explains this character's behavior away as being an epileptic seizure.

And when we see the Lakeith character again, he's back to being this like bizarro, hypnotized version of himself. So Chris and Rose go off by themselves and Chris is like, that was no seizure, this whole thing is very uncomfortable and I wanna go home. And eventually she's like yeah this sucks let's get out of here. Though yeah the way that she soft negs him throughout the

movie is so effective. She's a master she is give credit where credits do that woman the character Rose Oscar. I mean I will really I will I it took me probably on my first viewing too long to catch on that she's almost certainly in on it but I didn't get it till the keys right right and you're like fuck yeah of course right cuz the movie kind of implies that maybe she's also hypnotized and if she's doing this it's against her will but just kidding no No, she's in on it. Yeah, but before we get that reveal We see what appears to be an auction It's like disguised as a bingo game

But it's an auction that Dean Armitage is conducting and it's revealed that what is being sold is Chris and the highest bidder is that art dealer Jim Hudson. And all of this is of course unbeknownst to Chris. So Chris and Rose go back inside and they get ready to leave. And he sends the picture he took of Lakeith to his friend Rod. And Rod is like, wait a minute, I know that guy.

His name is Dre. And Chris is like, yeah, I thought I recognized him. And he's explaining how different Dre is now. And then, and this is the only part of the movie that like, I'm like, this is a perfect movie, except for this part, where Chris just kind of randomly finds this stash of photos in Rose's room. And each one is of Rose and a black person and the last two photos are of her and Walter and Georgina. And so Chris is now very much panicking. He's trying to get out right now. But Rose's family descends on him, including Rose, who surprise is in on the whole thing. And Missy hypnotizes Chris via the teacup and spoon and puts him in the sunken place.

He wakes up in the basement of the house, strapped to a chair. There's a TV in front of him and it starts playing a video about the coagula procedure, a surgery where part of a person's brain will be transplanted into Chris's body. In this case, Jim Hudson, who will have control over Chris's body and Chris's consciousness will live in the sunken place. This is one of my favorite horror movie tropes is all of a sudden when the instructional video comes on

and it's like, hi, you might be wondering what the scary thing is. Well, I'm a scary guy. And here's what the scary thing is. I love it. I will say Jordan Peele does a good job of giving an in-world reason because he has Jim Hudson say,

you know, they say that our mutual understanding of the procedure helps it take root. And you're like, yeah, I believe that. Because I was like, why is this an evil monologue situation? Right. They don't need to tell him. And then I was like, oh, okay, that makes sense. He has to understand for it to work.

But it's justified, right? Yeah. The reason I don't like Chris just randomly finding all those photos is because one, it feels a little too much like a coincidence that he just randomly finds them, to me at least. And two, why would they have that evidence very out in the open and available for him to see?

I don't know, it just felt a little silly to me, but otherwise, perfect movie. Anyway, so we understand that this coagulant procedure is what must have happened to Dre and Walter and Georgina. And then Chris is hypnotized again via the teacup and spoon coming on the TV screen. Meanwhile, back in the city, Rod starts investigating this whole ordeal and discovers that Dre has been missing for six months. So Rod goes to the police and tries to explain that he thinks the Armitage family is abducting

black people, brainwashing them and turning them to sex slaves. But the cops all laugh him off. Back at the Aratage house, Dean and Jeremy prepare for the surgery. Jeremy goes to collect Chris, thinking he's hypnotized, but just kidding, he's not, because Chris had stuffed cotton in his ears from the armchair that he was anxiously scratching.

So he didn't hear the teacup thing that triggers the hypnosis, which means he's able to fight back against Jeremy. He bashes him over the head with, I think, a bocce ball. Feels appropriate. Right? And then Chris impales Dean with the antlers of a taxidermied buck. He breaks Missy's teacup and stabs her and kills her. And then Chris takes Jeremy's keys and starts to drive off. But then Georgina, who is actually Rose's grandmother, tries to stop him. And Rose, who's eating cereal inside, hears the commotion and goes outside with a rifle. Walter, who is Rose's grandfather, chases after Chris, but Chris is able to use

the flash on his phone to unhypnotize Walter. So Walter shoots Rose and then himself, though Rose is still alive and Chris starts strangling her, but then a cop car shows up and Rose is like, help me. And again, we think, oh no, but the door swings open on the car and it says airport because it's Rod in a TSA car there to save his friend. And we can't stop cheering. And we're like woohoo.

I didn't know that there were alternative endings to this movie until I was researching for this. Yes. People did not like the alternate ending and I don't think I would have liked it either. No, no. So this ending that we see, you know, the theatrical ending is that Chris gets in the car

and they drive off to safety, the end. The alternate ending, at least one of them. It seems like there's a couple, yeah. There was one that was actually shot. So Chris strangles Rose and kills her, so she dies. And the cops still show up in that moment, and it's actually the police, not Rod and his TSA car. The cops arrest Chris and he goes to jail.

We cut to six months later. Rod visits him in prison. He's trying to help Chris clear his name, but Chris realizing that the racist system won't work in his favor, he's just like it's okay, like I stopped this from happening again, and then Chris walks away and that's the end of the movie. And Jordan Peele spoke about this as far as when he was writing the movie that was the ending that he had envisioned. He wanted this like sort of gut punch realistic ending. Which does feel like more in step with what he says his influences are because like the step for wives and Rosemary's baby both end

with like a pretty severe defeat of the protagonist. For sure, right. But by the time he was shooting the movie, he realized that he wanted an ending that would be cathartic and uplifting and empowering. And that's why we get the ending that we get where Chris triumphs and Rod saves him. So, yeah.

That is that. Um, let's take another quick break and then we'll come back to discuss. I'm Julian Edelman. I'm Rob Gronkowski. Guess what, folks? We're teammates again, and we're going to welcome you guys all to Dudes on Dudes. I'm a dude. You're a dude. a dude and dudes on dudes is our brand new show We're gonna highlight players peers guys that we played against Legends from the past and we're just gonna sit here and talk about them and we'll get into the types of dudes What kind of types of dudes are there girls? We got studs wizards. We got freaks or dudes dude. We got dogs dog will break down their games

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And what does that look like? A thousand pep talks, a million I've got yous, some very urgent I'm coming up first. Because, I don't know, let's face it, life can get even crazier than a season finale of Grey's Anatomy. And now here we are, opening up the friendship circle. To you.

Someone's cheating? We've got you on that. In-laws are in-lying? Let's get into it. Toxic friendship circle. To you. Someone's cheating? We've got you on that. In-laws are in-lying? Let's get into it. Toxic friendship? Air it out. We're on your side to help you with your concerns. Talk about ours, and every once in a while,

bring on an awesome guest to get their take on the things that you bring us. While we may be unlicensed to advise, hmm, we're gonna do it anyway. Listen to Call It What It is on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. I missed you guys during the break. I missed you too. I feel so safe now. I'm back with my friends. Yeah, where do we wanna start?

I guess I wanna start talking about like the influences. We talked a little bit about Rosemary's Baby and Stepford Wives being influences, which both of those are written by the same person, the original text I relive in or Levin. And the first time I ever heard it compared to Stepford Wives, I was at work and one of my co-workers who I did not like said, you know, get out is just like a rip-off, like a bad rip-off of Stepford Wives. Oh, and I was like, I knew

I didn't like you. And I was kind of resentful of the comparison at all, not knowing that Peele himself had said, yeah, no, I drew from Stepford Wives. And I think what's really specific about Stepford Wives in particular, this did not happen in the 2004 remake because it's bad. but in the 1975 original film and the 1972 book, the end is that Joanne, or Joanna, I don't remember which one is her name, but she is, she becomes a separate wife and at the grocery store she sees this like black family moving into the neighborhood, right, integrating the neighborhood, and it's very heavily implied that they will be next. So I feel like it was sort of, in a way, a symbolic passing of the torch or of the baton to tell this story about blackness, because

Stepford Wives is very specifically kind of like in the way the feminine mystique exists by Betty Friedan, a foreign about white women. Yeah. And I think that it is very dynamic and it is very of its time, but it is definitely foreign about white women. And this movie is for and about black men in a way that draws from separate wives, but is not a cheap ripoff of it. Man from work whose name I don't remember. Good, good. God, there's, I love men in writers rooms. They never, they never. This was not a writers room. I will give credit where credit's due. I don't want anybody to think

that anybody at like iCarly or Raven's home was saying that stuff. I was working at it as a telemarketer at the time. Very different vibe. Right around when Sorry to Bother You came out, which was interesting that Lakeith Stanfield has taken on many roles, embodying whiteness and blackness at the same time. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I didn't really connect

what Peel's influences were before. I just like happened to rewatch these and then yeah, he does cite that, but you're totally right, Krom. I mean, anyone saying that Get Out is derivative is a fucking liar who just like, and just with like the specificity of who this movie is for, because absolutely, the Rosemary's Baby and Stepford Wives have this whiff of second wave feminism about them where points are made and also it's so clearly focused

on middle to upper class white women and what their struggles were, ignoring everybody else. And Get Out, I mean, it's clear what Jordan Peele's focus is and it's like, you can reference and be inspired by other works, but this is so different. And the fact that in this movie, like white women of the same class as Stepford Wives are taken to task, They are the active aggressors in this situation

and he's not shying away from that. So it almost feels like it's in conversation with Stepford wives, but to say it's a ripoff is just like a lie. It was a lie. It was deeply appalling. Like it has stuck with me that this man said that. And I didn't, flames, flames on the side of my face. Okay clue reference you love to see it.

Wow. Yeah I mean you know this movie is obviously one that has a very clear agenda as far as examining anti-black racism in the U.S. It's a movie that forced a lot of people, especially white people, to interrogate their history with anti-black racism, to interrogate their allyship, if they consider themselves to be anti-racist allies or non-racist allies, and how they approach allyship and whether or not it's actually helpful or if it's performative and false. It's a movie that examines racial and cultural

appropriation of black people and examines the exploitation of black bodies throughout history into present day. It's doing all these things. And also all these metaphors that you can apply as far as the prison industrial complex, slavery, the bingo scene, you know, being an allegory for a slave auction, like all these things. I have to say something about the bingo scene and just something that always is bone chilling

for me when I watch a movie where somebody sinister does like crafts to prepare for their sinister activities. I'm just like you you went to FedEx copy and print and got those bingo cards made and had like a big-ass picture of Chris printed and framed it and put it on an easel. That's not that's not nothing. I co-hosted a bridal shower for my friend. There were a lot of little things that I had to do and it was exhausting. And I'm just like, you're so evil. You had to go to CVS about that. Yeah. Someone put stickers on the bingo cards and very specific places and like color coded them and

everything. Like effort. No, it's nefarious. And I don't think Bradley Whitford is doing that either. Like he's outsourcing that labor. I don't think that Georgina's doing it either because she is secretly the grandma. Right. But like I'm wondering if they do have sort of a what Rod's thinking of like separate like actual slave people doing it or if they just have like an assistant I don't know. Even the even the house the house is very like plantation coated I know it's shot in the south like there's just so many signifiers of this slavery era in the US and then to

have I don't know I mean like speaking to your point Caitlin Caitlin, of how a lot of people, not all of them, because there are people who are just outwardly racist, they're not even pretending to not be. But for, I guess with the exception of Jeremy, for Rose and her parents, it's like they're saying the right thing, but they're not, I mean, they're actively inflicting harm with their actions.

And it's just, I don't know, it's like it's just I don't know it's like the best possible use of the horror genre to make that point. For me with the outwardly racist people at the party it's really interesting because they're never outwardly racist in the way that is like bad that you're like oh this is a bad person because they are being racist. But like to bring up that lady again, who is manhandling Chris, and then is like asking Rose, like, is it true that sex with black men is better? That is obviously very racist. But then, you know, you always have those people who are like, but it's a compliment to say that sex with black people is better. Like we're saying a good thing. And it's sort of like the positive stereotypes that are just as

harmful as the negative stereotypes, but sort of like passed over. So it's like, oh, I love Tiger Woods. And I'm just like, oh my God. Voting for Obama the third time. It's like, right. It's very Northeast racism, I feel. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. Even though the movie was shot in the South, Jordan Peele deliberately was like, I want to communicate that these are like New York upstate,

like neoliberal white rich people. Because it would have been too easy to do a very like, you know, southern plantation racist kind of thing. Right. People we've all met like it's right. There's people in my family that it's just like there's uncomfortable echoes of cringe inducing embarrassing gross shit that they would say and be like, but what you're just

like, you're awful. You're awful. And I think that, you know, we don't know what we don't know. And for some people, the first time that they say something like that and somebody's like, hey, that's not cool. They're like, oh my God, I totally didn't know that.

Thank you so much. But I think it's the, well, I'm not a racist and not being willing to confront. Like you can be racist accidentally and that's okay as long as you are like, oh, racism is not great, let me not do that again. Like, nobody is saying like, oh, once you do a racism, you are automatically Hitler. Like, that's not how it works. And I feel like a lot of people feel like that and there's like a discomfort

that they're not willing to sit with. For sure. Yeah, and I feel like that is the idea that if you are racist in any context, at any point, that you are forever horrible is used as like a defense mechanism by people to refuse to learn and just like double down and make people calling them out seem like inherently unreasonable where it's like,

well, no, you're like being asked to listen and adjust your behavior and think. And I feel like that is just so antithetical too. That's what I find so interesting and like effective about the way most of the members of the Armitage family behave as like fake allies basically where for example with Rose we are seeing her anytime that Chris brings up something about oh someone said something that made me uncomfortable, or I told you they were probably racist. You see her like downplaying his concerns, but

like joking around about them. And on the surface, initially, that could be interpreted as like, oh, she's trying to put him at ease. She's like, you know, bringing levity to the situation. But really, she's gaslighting him and luring him into a false sense of security so that her family can entrap him and steal his body. And even the part where she, you know, calls out the cop for wanting to see his ID in a way that feels racist, her defending Chris wasn't her being anti-racist,

that was her like avoiding a paper trail. So there's like all these things that could be you know interpreted through different lenses depending on what you already know about these characters. And then like Dean when he first meets Chris and he's like giving him the tour of the house, he's saying some like cringy things the way a like rich white boomer man would try to be an ally. And they're cringy but it seems like he means well, like he acknowledges the optics of being a wealthy white family, having black servants. He's saying the you know, I would have voted for Obama third term he, you know, makes a comment about Jesse Owens winning gold at the Olympics

in front of Hitler and all this stuff. Again, it seems like he's trying, but it's all a facade and it's all- Right, but because it's like everything he's doing is self-defensive, which we later learn is because he has a lot of reasons to be like, oh, nothing to see here. But on like subsequent viewings,

you're like, he's not trying to get to know Chris at all because he doesn't care. Like he's just pointing out all of the ways in which he is not racist towards black people and doesn't ask Chris a single question about himself at any point, like never gets to try to know the guy at all. I think the different ways that different generations and genders of people in the Armitage family

are sort of representative of a class of racism is very interesting. Sort of like the one that stands out the most is Jeremy, the brother, and he sort of gives off this like angry alt-right internet boy. Down to the haircut. Like sort of racism where he is like trying to scrap with him and talks about physical superiority, which is very reminiscent of the way that like incels talk and gives me like Elliot Roger vibes.

I think about Elliot Roger all the time. He's so scary to me. Like I, I, I never got past that. That was like really freaky for me. But I think that then when you also look at, you know, his dad, this older boomer who is a doctor, not for nothing. The medical system is very, very racist. They're trying. Some people are trying within the system, but, you know, it's still bad. Same with psychiatry, too. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. And he is sort of this more one microaggressive racism

when he's like, oh yo how long has this fang been happening? Which I'm not joking, my family friend has this husband who is an older white man who's been rich for most of his life, and I would go to the family friend's house and I stopped going there because I felt so microaggressed because when I would go over there the husband would be like, oh what's up dog? And I'm like, I don't talk like that. You don't talk like that. Why are we, why are we doing this? And it was just exhausting to deal with every time I was there and it

was very real and these different classes and then we can talk more about like Rose and Missy and the ways in which it's like one of them is like, well I date black men so like I'm not racist and the other one is sort of like bringing up this trauma that he has and weaponizing it against him in the way that like you know a Karen would sort of weaponize her whiteness, white womaness. It's interesting. It's very, it's all very deliberate. Like we said at the beginning, it's all very well crafted. Yeah. And then the, I don't know if like compromises is the right word, but like what Chris does in response to these constant aggressions from the family or like the guests at the party.

And like, it's a sort of like choosing his battle sort of thing, but he isn't able to actually, like he just has to say, well, there was another one. Okay, I'm gonna go over here now and pretend to take pictures so I don't have to talk to these people. And then he's interrupted from that and more, you know, macro and microaggressions are hurled at him. As well as with Rose occasionally,

and this caused me to reflect, I'm like, fuck, do I do, I don't know, I mean, one must consider, but how Rose will occasionally sort of monologue about, wasn't it fucked up when they did this? Wasn't it fucked up when they did this? Wasn't it fucked up when they did this? And you can see that Chris is like kind of exhausted by it and is like, can we just not, because she's not really doing anything about it,

which we realize is very deliberately, she's not doing anything about it. But just like seeing this be yet another sort of like, drain and burden upon Chris to like have to listen to his girlfriend recap the ways in which people were racist to him throughout the day and then being like, well, I'm not okay with it.

And he's like, all right, great. Can you say something about it to your family? Right, right. She's like, nah. Yeah, she's, she's just again, she's a master. She needs a, she needs an Oscar and a copy of the DSM. That one. When they cut to her drinking milk with headphones on,

I'm like, that is very funny. Like listening to I've had the time of my life drinking milk, like scouting other people to try to abduct. Yeah. I do wonder about, and this is, I haven't thought about this before on previous watches, so it's like not a big deal, but I wonder at the logistics. Because if you look at, say, like Jim, he is a major art dealer to the point where, you know, Chris knows who he is

separate from Rose, like, where does he go? Because he's, his physical body is gone. And then like, does Chris just kind of step into that role? Like, I don't understand the logistics. Is he just like kept on like life support? I, yeah, unclear. Yeah, not sure either. But that brings to mind a piece I wanted to quote from by Damon Young in a slate piece entitled the disturbing truth that makes get out depressingly plausible where he compares and contrasts get out and Gone girl just saying the latter of course being a movie about a pretty white woman who goes missing and how

that captivates and, you know, paralyzes the nation, which is what tends to happen when white women are missing. And then he goes on to say, quote, and get out the Armitage family and their dozens of co conspirators are able to do what what they do and are able to continue to do it for what? Seems to be at least a decade Because well, no one gives a damn about missing black people the writer goes on to say the actual facts on the disparities in regard and attention between Missing white people and missing black people are predictably disheartening Although black people only comprise 13% of America's population, we are 34% of

America's missing, a reality that exists as the result of a melange of racial and socioeconomic factors rendering black lives demonstratively less valuable than the lives of our white counterparts." And then he goes on to discuss, you know, the lack of media attention paid to missing black people versus the disproportionate amount of attention paid to missing white woman syndrome. So as far as like the logistics of like, yeah, would Chris just be the art dealer at Hudson Galleries now? Or like, you know, Chris's body piloted by Jim Hudson? Or how does that work?

It seems like they do keep a very like close knit community for this to work. But also as this piece points out, like this is plausible because of how law enforcement and media and all this stuff doesn't pay much attention to missing black people. Well, I mean, we get this scene in the police station where three black officers laugh in Rod's face when he's like, hey, my friend was supposed to come back, he didn't, He also found this man who has been missing for six months.

And even just the statement like, well, he doesn't look missing because we found him. That's right. Right. Yeah. Effective commentary on policing and cops not believing people. Absolutely. Right.

And had to have police force, like,, I mean just do answer to white supremacy at the end of the day. I mean, I thought the way that even, it's, it is like to get the plot moving forward, but even how, if Andre was missing for six months and he was a white man, everyone at the Armitage House would know about him because of how the media is different.

And so the fact that the reveal that he's been missing for six months is just presented very passively. And it's like, there are these old news articles, but it's clear that there was no, you know, like media blitz the way that there would be if he'd been white. You know, it's like, that's how they get away with it

is the Armitages are very knowingly taking advantage of how they know the world works. And that they're like, you know, sure, maybe Chris has people in his life who will miss him. But, you know, no one's going to actually pay attention outside of maybe a few people. That's what they're betting on, not knowing that the TSA is on it. Well, and also he is notably an orphan. Exactly. And has no family, no actual like blood family that's gonna be like, no, we are gonna keep looking

in the same way. Yeah, I mean, just like the way that his vulnerabilities are targeted is so disgusting on like on subsequent viewings because at first I didn't even really fully take in. I was like, oh, part of the reason Rose targeted him specifically is because he has suffered so many losses in his life. Yeah, and then the way, I mean, the scene with Missy

where she's just digging in and in and in on the worst thing that's ever happened to him. Like it's just, it's horrible. I also want to talk about the selection process of picking who these people are. What's interesting to me is sort of the reactions, like we talked about Chris's reactions, like, oh, it's probably fine and sort of picking his battles. And you see Rod's reactions, which are much bigger to these things. And part of it is Rod is supposed

to be a comedic character. But part of it also, I think, is the reason that they choose a Chris over a Rod. And this idea of sort of palatable blackness and being black, but in the right way. He works as a photographer. He's involved in the arts. And then you find out that Andre,

Dre was a jazz musician. And they're sort of like, you know, pretty chill. When we see Dre walking through the suburbs, you know, he's like, I don't feel comfortable here. But when he sees that car, he kind of turns and walks the other way. He doesn't want to get into a confrontation. And I think that there is a reliance on choosing palatable Black people, people that are not going to call people out in their face the way that a rod would like,

nah, I'm out of here. Because Chris had so many opportunities to be like, yeah, that's a very fucked up thing to say, like, and to be clear, yeah, that's a very fucked up thing to say like and to be clear I am not you know passing judgment against him for not calling out people in those situations I just mean that it happened very frequently that he was put into those situations Which almost feels like it's getting into I mean just speaking to like the like working artists It's like that becomes a class thing too, where I feel like, you know, Rod working for the TSA and having a working class job versus Chris being a working artist, like, yeah, like you're saying, Karrama is like a very intentional choice from, I mean, by the Armitages, but also, you know, by Chris,

I thought there was a there was an interesting quote from Jordan Peele he said Chris feels like an everyman. He's kind of like J. Cole Chris is that guy everyone knows who has been in everyone's class at school that good guy from around the area Which is just I feel like a really like speaks to what you were both just saying and also the the J Cole comparison is funny to me. That's very funny. Yeah, I So the J. Cole comparison is funny to me. That's very funny. I wanted to talk about black women because there are three black women, I would say in this movie, two you see, one you don't.

And the two you see are Georgina and the police officer. And then the one you don't is Chris's mother. I think that it's really interesting the sort of, and not to rag on Jordan Peele, he made a masterpiece, like I said, but the erasure of black women in this conversation and sort of the only time that anyone explicitly mentions black women and black womanhood is to talk about the purported jealousy that black women express when they see black men with white women. Right.

Which like you can have him. Like it's fine. I'm not mad at you. Calm down. And you know how he says like it's a thing. And then Rose tries to downplay it by saying, oh, you're just so sexy that people are unplugging your phone. Right.

Like that's what's happening. She responds by gaslighting her, her MO. And you know, at the end of the day, he is able to, in a way, heal the trauma of not doing what he was supposed to do for his mother by going back for Georgina. Because even though she is inhabited by evil grandma Armitage, he knows that there is a black woman in there, but she's also sacrificed in his attempts to escape. And she doesn't kill herself, Walter kills himself. So I really am intentionally using the word sacrificed. And it's interesting the way that the film

shies away from showing violence against white women in the same way that it shows the violence that Georgina faces when she gets hit by the car and later when she's in the car. Because we don't see Missy die on screen. True. The camera pans away. And we also don't see Rose technically die.

I mean, we see her get almost suffocated. We see her get shot, but then he stops after everything. Why does he stop? He has violently, violently killed her father, her brother and her mother. But something about her is still like he still loves her a little bit, I think, despite all of that. And watching him wrap his hands around her throat, it made me think of Othello. And I was like, Oh, yeah, you know, because he chokes Desdemona. Yeah, I've definitely read that. I am so educated. And I read so much Shakespeare.

For people who aren't as educated in Shakespeare as Caitlin. Yeah, please explain it for them. for people who aren't as educated in Shakespeare as Caitlin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, please explain it for them. Othello is a Shakespearean tragedy that features at its center a black man named Othello. Fun fact, my college did a production of Othello with zero black people. No!

Oh my God! So we can talk about that on a whole other episode, but Othello is this sort of like military, like decorated military man, and he has this white wife named Desdemona. And this other man, this white man who's jealous of Othello, and I might be glossing over a lot, but basically this maniago who's jealous of Othello convinces him that Desdemona is cheating on him and then he murders Desdemona by strangling her. And there's a really good, you know, I love a Shakespeare adaptation as does any person who was a teen in the 2000s, but there's a good adaptation with Julia Stiles as Desdemona called O. Right, yes. I've never seen it, but yeah, I remember it.

Yeah, but like the visual definitely reminded me of that. And when he stopped, I was like, oh, that's interesting. And the tragedy of Othello is that he kills this woman and then he ends up suffering for it. And I wonder if in this sort of remade version of, not of Othello, but like the the do-over ending, the alternate ending that became the theatrical cut, if it was supposed to be a softer ending than him actually killing her, because if it is the police and we think it's the police, it's like, okay well they can save her

and question her or whatever and she'll lie, but they can get down to... I mean unfortunately like they needed to kill her like they had to. Oh yeah. I mean she had to go. I'm glad she's dead. I mean not even unfortunately. Like yeah she had to go. But I honestly like I hadn't really, I noticed the absence of black women in roles that I

mean so much of Chris's characterization is defined by his mother's absence, her violent absence. And yeah, we don't really get to spend any time with anyone other than Georgina, who, as you were saying, Karama, it's very complicated, like where is Georgina within Georgina? But I hadn't really connected the, yeah, the sort of avoidance of violence towards white women.

I kind of wonder like seven years on if that would not be as much of an avoidance, if this was made right now, I'm not really sure. I think it probably would be, and I do think that also Jordan Peele is married to a white woman. And I think it's very interesting the, I mean, sort of the mention of, you know, black women looking sideways when you're with a white woman, when you're with white women. And maybe that is his experience. I love Chelsea Peretti. I'm not looking at anybody sideways. They're a great duo. But I do think that, you know,

the life experiences that we have color, the way that we see the world. And also, again, he is biracial and I believe that his mother is white, if I'm not wrong. So I think that his connection to white women is interesting. And I don't know if it was,

not to say it wasn't intentional, like he doesn't do things intentionally, but I wonder if there was a subconscious sort of wanting to protect white women in there. That's very possible and he had also spoken about when he was making this movie that he was concerned that it wouldn't do well or that no one would come to see it because he was concerned that black people wouldn't want to watch black people be victimized and he was worried that white people wouldn't want to go see it because white people are the villains so I wonder if that kind of informed some of those choices hard to say but I do know that he had those concerns when he was making the movie. I remember, yeah, because I mean, it's, I didn't really connect to the fact that I was

like, oh, I guess this could be an awkward night at the Peretti's for Jordan Peele after Get Out comes out. But I did remember this tweet from Chelsea Peretti, I think a couple of weeks after Get Out came out, where I think everyone was tweeting at her being like, is this about you? And Chelsea Peretti replied in a very Chelsea Peretti way. She said, we all cried for weeks.

We were so hurt to see our family secrets exposed in this documentary. I almost forgot about that. Which is the only rational response to it because you're just like, shut up, just go see the movie. But yeah, I mean, I think that that is interesting. And I guess it's not, yeah, it's not even like necessarily a criticism of Jordan Peele, but just that's,

that's a tour shit where it's like, it's not unreasonable to think that some of his own personal stuff is gonna get tangled up in it because of how it was made. And it's not bad stuff. It's just interesting stuff to note and stuff that, you know, my personal experience is also going to make me notice because I am a Black woman. And I also, I don't know if Rose is queer or not, but I also do think it's interesting that Georgina is queer. And one of the only black women that we, you know, learn the name of, get to see is a queer black woman. And they sort of double, double oppressed her.

Right. We only see a version of her that's inhabited by this like grandmother. So we don't even get to know. Yeah, to your point, Karama, it is, I found it disappointing that this movie about anti-black racism and black liberation because of how the movie ends, mostly leaves out black women. And I don't know if this would have been narratively possible, but I wish the movie

had found a way to save Georgina. Yeah. Where he unhypnotizes her and there's enough of her left in there that she can, you know, be liberated from this situation. But it's tricky because like, you know, you see Walter kill himself. Right. And you can imagine that it's tricky because like, you know, you see Walter kill himself, and you can imagine that it's because he wouldn't want to go on living after having experienced

these horrors of- Well, and also the other guy is in there, and it's mostly him. So I think that he's like, no, I'd rather die. Yeah. I just feel like there is room for, there is room for black women in this narrative without meaningfully changing it. I will say, I will say one thing that I did think was interesting is we see three coagulated black people throughout the film and two of them are men, one is a woman. And the two men get released through the camera flash

at some point. And we see a peeking through of the real Georgina without that. And the black woman is the only one who is strong enough to keep continually fighting to get out to the point where she is in tears. And we know that your physical nervous system is what is connected to you. So those tears are coming from her. It's, yeah. And the scene when she's pouring tea and like almost spills it,

it's like she's trying to break free from this. Yeah. It's really, really, really good performance from Betty Gabriel. Like, yeah. Who I didn't realize she's like a scream queen, she's a bloom house girly. She was in the Purge election year. She was in Unfriended Dark Web, which I have seen,

and I was like, oh, she's in Unfriended Dark Web. She's in Upgrade, she's in It Lives Inside. I mean, she is a, but just a really, really great performance from her, especially just like a really, really great performance from her. Especially because it's like, she's not given that much screen time, but makes a meal of it. I agree, I don't know like narratively how to get around

all of this sort of lore, but I do, it's just like there was room for black women within this plot. And it feels, intentional feels like to, but like it, I don't know. I also think that black men are allowed to have their own stories. Their struggles are an entirely different thing.

I just am pointing out what I see. And I think that a lot of people talk about Get Out as being black generally. And I think that there are a lot of women who are black, a lot of women of all races who do love get out, but it is definitely specifically a story about and for black men. Yeah. And I mean, something that I think Jordan Peele

does really well conversely is like nailing how white women can weaponize their white womanhood in all of these different ways where I mean, by the end, like you see that Rose has spent whatever the better part of a decade weaponizing her white womanhood to bring people to her family's creepy estate. And the way that Missy acts, I want to talk about Missy a little bit because it's like

that character is so... I do want to just stay on Rose for a second and talk about the weaponization of her white womanness. And one that I don't think I've ever heard anybody talk about, and that doesn't mean people aren't talking about it, that stuck out to me on this rewatch was when Rod calls to check in on Chris and he finally gets through to Chris's number and she does this again absolutely alarming performance. Master manipulator. Yeah just blank blank face blank face. And she's like, Chris, where are you? Is this Chris? And then Rod's like, he's not with you. He left two days ago. And then when Rod is like, you know what, this bitch talks too much. I'm gonna, I'm gonna catch

her and starts recording. She switches tactics and makes it seem like he is sexually predatory towards her. Yeah, right. Which is very, for me, reminiscent of like Emmett Till. Yeah. And this idea of protecting white women's virtue. And he knows, he's like, I'm fucked. Like this is, this is not helping, Chris. This is only going to hurt me. Right. I need to shut this down. This recording is of no use. And she knows to do that.

She's like, no, he's going to start recording. I've been doing this for 10 years. I know what to do. And it's very insidious and it is very calculated. And I'm also very angry that that woman who lied about Emmett Till never went to jail. And she said she lied. She said she lied. And they were like, well, she's an old lady. that that woman who lied about Emmett Till never went to jail. And she said she lied.

She said she lied. And they were like, well, she's an old lady. What are we gonna do now? Well, it's part of the reason where it's like, we should be, we should have just seen Rose die on screen. Like she has it coming because you see her, I mean, in the movie's last moments, you see her preparing to do the exact same thing to Chris.

She says, I love you. She switches tactics. Well, I mean, like when she thinks that a white police officer has arrived. Oh, sure. You can tell she's preparing to be like, he attacked me. I don't, blah, blah, blah. And just playing into all of these white supremacist narratives

that police don't blink at, but thankfully it's the TSA. But even before that, she's trying to save herself. She knows that he wants to strangle her to death, so she's like, I love you, even though she's just tried to kill him with a gun, but she's like, she to the very, very end, she's doing these manipulating tactics, whatever she thinks will, you know, save her get her out of this situation. And he doesn't buy it, but then it's, I'm like, just kill her just strangle her to death. Finish the job, Chris. The gun is my favorite plant in payoff when he says at the very beginning,

like, I just don't wanna get chased off the lawn with a shotgun. And then that is the very thing that happens to him. But she does. Foreshadowing. Yeah. Yes. Should we get into Missy?

Yeah, let's talk about Missy. I feel like she is, I mean, speaking to like the generational stuff we've been talking about feel like she is, I mean, speaking to like the generational stuff we've been talking about, like she is a different kind of white woman doing a different kind of white woman thing where she's clearly playing off of her husband, which you know, later is revealed to be this very insidious performance, this family, like the worst piece of community theater ever to take place. But that she's playing off of like, oh, my husband, please ignore him. Like, I'm the nice parent, I'm the normal parent. And the second she gets

Chris alone, still tries to sort of maintain that for as long as possible while pushing past every every single boundary that he sets until he's plot wise completely paralyzed. Right. Yeah. It's I just noticed you're wearing a Shrek shirt. Sorry. Yes. Well, I mean, I wasn't sure when or if I would bring this up, but I did at some point want to draw some parallels between Get Out and Shrek 2.

OK. OK. OK, listening. Meet the parents. So a man who is marginalized by society goes to meet the family of his partner, who is far more privileged than he is. It's very uncomfortable.

The family makes a bunch of aggressive comments towards him. The family of both has a secret that deals with inhabiting a different body because in Shrek 2 the king is actually a frog. Okay, not the same secret, but there's divergences. Right, right, right. Similarly, you know, the protagonists of both movies, they either exchange bodies or almost has their body taken over by someone else because in Shrek 2, Shrek becomes a human, a white human man. So, so a body swapping element in both movies and both protagonists have a comic relief sidekick friend played by a black comedian. Wow. So crazy how get out is a cheap knockoff of Shrek too.

I was gonna say don't tell that to the guy Karama worked with. So he'll be taking that theory all around town. I feel, well, I read, was this true that Shrek 2 takes inspiration from Guess Who's Coming to Dinner? I would 100% believe that. I 100% believe that having seen both movies. I vaguely remember us talking about that in our Shrek 2 episode.

And Jordan Peele cites that as somewhat of an inspiration for Get Out as well. So by way of Shrek 2. Right, right, right, right. And then the Get Out and Titanic parallels are that both movies have a character named Rose, who come from a rich white family. Wow.

The end, that's the end of those. End of similarities, hopefully. We don't know, her family is pretty fucked. Yeah, is there anything else we wanted to talk about with Missy? Just that, again, everyone in this family is such a master manipulator and they're doing things to either put on the facade of allyship to try to manipulate Chris into feeling more

of a sense of ease, or they are weaponizing things about him against him, like, you know, Missy with the almost like using therapy speech as a weapon, the way that some people do now. What I was going to say is, you know, by leaps and bounds, therapy and psychiatry and psychology is a field dominated by white women, definitely more psychology than psychiatry, just because, you know, medicine. But I think it's interesting that we have created a sort of system where the people

that you're supposed to turn to in trying to figure out how to navigate, you know, what you're struggling with, for the most part are white women. And like, what if white women are the problem? And, which is true in this case. And's like let me help you let me help you stop smoking he's like no that's fine i'm good and it's not that he doesn't want to quit he just doesn't want to get hypnotized with good reason right and she's like no trust me bro and that's

sort of like the thing you i mean mean, I've never had a black therapist. I have primarily had white women therapists and I've had some great therapists. But there are times in therapy where I have to like stop and explain something in a way that I wouldn't have to if I had somebody who was from a similar background to me. And there are times where it's like, you look like the problem. And now I'm at a point in my therapy where I'm comfortable enough,

but it's hard at first to be like, you look like the problem and I need to tell you about the problem and I need you to not take this personally. And I don't know if you can do that. Yeah. Which theoretically a therapist should, but boy, are there a lot of therapists out there who take shit so personally

Yeah, yeah, I felt it felt very again, just like intentional of in in a gendered way like you're saying like because Therapy in the US is so dominated by white women and the fact that like it's almost sort of implied It was like well, the man is the doctor, the surgeon, and the woman handles emotions. And it's prescriptive in a gendered sense too, but they are very much working in tandem with each other towards a common goal.

And just like Catherine Keener is so scary, and I feel like also is just very well cast in like you know this lady, she wouldn't hurt you right? Like it's and I think it's interesting that when um they're talking about Jeremy being in medical school Dean says oh he wants to follow in his old man's footsteps and it's like you're both doctors I hope you know that yeah. She's a psychiatrist. Psychiatrist go to medical school. Right, so there are these little, I do appreciate, I guess in movies where it's like gender discrimination is acknowledged

but not as something that would get you off the hook for being actively aggressive in the way that Missy is. Where the harm is, this is not the same amount of aggression that's being experienced and she is the perpetrator of so much of it. And yeah, I guess we should have seen her die on screen a little more brutally, it's weird that we didn't. It could be a contract thing, I don't know.

Catherine Keener will not die on screen. She'll not die on screen. I know that the Julianne Moore thing. Julianne Moore will not die on screen. That's her rule. So I guess don't look for her in a slasher movie. My favorite rule is that Denzel Washington will not kiss white women on screen.

Really? Yeah. Good for him. And like, not because he's got anything against them, but because he thinks that it would be alienating to his target demographic, which is primarily black women. And I think that that is absolutely true, particularly black women of a certain age.

And I think that it's really interesting and kind of wonderful that he has put that much thought into it. And he's like, no, I know who supports me and I wanna support them back. Yeah. Right. That's beautiful. My favorite role of an actor is that Leonardo DiCaprio

has to be fully clothed in water in all of his movies. This is not actually substantiated. This is not come around my seer face. It's not. It's just something that happens mysteriously in every Leonardo DiCaprio movie. I think he might have a no topless rule or something. I feel like you rarely see him shirtless. Most hunks you see shirtless more. I feel like maybe he's just not comfortable with it. There's like 10 movies where he's fully clothed in water.

We've been working on this theory for years. I feel like the woman in that meme where there's like math in front of her. I feel like the woman in that meme where there's like math in front of her. I'm like, what? Like it's like a beautiful mind. I'm like putting things together. I'm like, I don't think I've ever seen that man with his shirt off in water. You're right. It's Titanic, Romeo plus Juliet, Inception, The Revenant, Shutter Island.

The list goes on. There's a few exceptions, but it's way, yeah, vastly. He's always wearing a clingy shirt underwater. The beach, anyway. The beach, one of our most famous underwater actors, the United Caprio. One thing I wanted to just get everyone's feeling on, I mean, this is like a, again, trope of the horror genre,

but the Steven Root character, which I was also like, how do I know this guy? How do I know this guy? Milton, got it, got it. Office space. Milton, office space. Office space, yep. Did not connect that until this viewing, good for Milton.

But the incorporation of his blindness as a, I don't know, I'm curious what you guys think from a disability perspective of how that is used, because I know that's something that is used in the horror, disability is weaponized in the horror genre very frequently. I think it is easy to understand what Jordan Peele is going for metaphorically with sight and the sort of horrific quality of a white man wanting to literally steal and take a black man's

perspective from him, which I feel like is very much what he's saying because Chris is a photographer. His perspective is very crucial you know, crucial to who he is. And, you know, Jim Hudson knows he's very talented and he wants to take that from him and claim it as his own. So I think as a metaphor, it works, but I feel absolutely like nonsensical to think that now that you're in his body and you have his physical eyes that you will gain his perspective because of his talent. Right. Being a photographer is not about having literal good eyes. It's about noticing things and the ways that we notice things are influenced by the things that

we go through and we can see these sunken place people and how they're not black. Like they look black, they're not black. There's nothing about them that feels black. And it was interesting that, and I'll get back to Steven Root's character in just a second. It was interesting that Chris said that when he saw Dre, he felt like he knew him.

And it sort of felt like kind of a positive inversion of the idea that all Black people know each other. And like, knowing your people when you see your people. And he was very clear that like, I didn't know that first guy, I knew the second guy. Yeah, the guy who came at me. Yeah. Right. Which I think was interesting. With Steven Root and the blindness. I think one, he gets to not see color and very explicitly says, like, I could give a damn about what color you are. I half wanted him to say, like, he could be black, white, green, purple.

That old boomer, that old boomer chestnut. I love it when they say that. It's so funny to me. It's so funny. Because like, show me the purple people. Show me the green people. It's Shrek, but anyway. But the thing about, obviously like he gets to be colorblind and that's a statement on that. And it's like, even if you're not seeing race, you're still being racist. But also talking about disability in horror, I think a lot of times disability makes the people evil. It's like, they're disfigured and we're seeing their evil on the outside.

This for me feels more like the problematic aspect of disabled people always wanting a cure for their disability. And he's willing to go to these evil lengths to get a cure for his blindness, which is, yes, comes from a genetic disorder, and it's not something that he was born with, but it's like when you have a disability, it is a change in perspective, and it is a change in the way you live your life, but not everybody wants a cure for their disability. They want accessibility, but they don't want a cure. Right. Yeah. And it's another example of a disabled character being played by an able-bodied actor.

Milton. By Milton. So, yeah, I think that could have been handled very differently and better than it is. Yeah, it's not, I mean, it's not the most egregious example we've seen of it by a long shot in the horror genre, but it did feel worth mentioning. And I honestly, I mean, like, Kareem, even hearing you say like, how ridiculous is it that Jim Hudson would expect to gain

Chris's artistic perspective by having his body is like just another way that he's reducing every black person he encounters to a body versus a person or a consciousness or a, like, you know, he's like eyeballs equal perspective, which is pretty fucking rich coming from an art dealer. I'm like, okay, so you just don't understand your own job?

Which is a lot of people in high places, so. That's true. You can just say you wanna see, Jim. Like, it's okay. Yeah. You can say that. Right. And that's okay.

You can want that. Right, yeah. Don't lie to yourself and don't lie to me that you're like, I wanna be able to take real good pictures That's the goal. That's why I'm doing the eugenicist experiment at Bradley Whitford's house Fucking horrible like I yeah, I mean and I do think that it's like a valid point that Yeah, I mean the the fact that you know Jim Hudson sort of uses his disability to explain why he isn't racist, where that's not how racism works.

It's not connected to your ability to see, it's connected to how you've been societally conditioned. And Jim Hudson is 50, 60, whatever years old. Yes, he does have internalized and externalized racism. So I get, I mean, I don't know. I get why from like a writing perspective, Jordan Peele did that. But yeah, there's a few things that,

I mean, starting with by actually casting a disabled actor would have, you know. Yeah, cause there's no reason not to. Yeah. There's literally, there's no reason. You don't have to cast Milton. And it's not like Steven Root is the draw. No.

Right. It took me almost 10 years to figure out, oh, that's Milton. And you know, he's a great actor. Yeah. But I'm sure that there was a great blind actor who could have then been the draw for the next big movie if we knew who he was. For sure. Yes. I also wanted to chat about the character of Hiroki Tanaka. Yes. Um, so this is one of the party goers at the Armitage family party. He is the lone Asian man, the only person of color who hasn't been, you

know, coagulant, procedured, and he's one of the people like, you know, bidding in this auction. And a lot of people were like, wait a minute, why is an Asian person at this racist party hanging out with all these racist white people? And a lot of people have written about it. And the response was mixed, where some of what I saw were op-eds from Asian writers that interpreted the inclusion of the Hiroki Tanaka character in this particular context as commentary on the existence of anti-black racism and complicitness in white supremacy in the Asian community. I'll share a quote from a piece by

I'll share a quote from a piece by Rainier Menningding in Next Shark entitled Why Get Out a Movie About Anti-Black Racism Had an Asian Character. Says quote, to understand why the Asian man asked this being the question that he poses, which is something like, do you find that being African American has more advantages or disadvantages in the modern world? So that's the question the character asks. So to understand why the Asian man asked this, you have to consider Claire Jean Kim's theory of

racial triangulation. Racial triangulation posits that Asians exist on a spectrum where they are, one perceived as better than blacks, but not as good as whites, and two categorized as that Asians exist on a spectrum where they are, one, perceived as better than Blacks but not as good as whites, and two, categorized as perpetual foreigners who will never be accepted as quote-unquote full Americans. According to racial triangulation, Asians are in racial limbo, trying desperately to achieve whiteness and status as quote-unquote real Americans by stepping on the heads of black folks So when the Asian man asks Chris is the african-american experience an advantage or disadvantage?

He wasn't just making small talk he was wrestling with the decision of whether or not it would be better to trade bodies with Chris and experience anti blackness or stay the same and live life as an Asian man in America and experience xenophobia." Unquote. And that piece goes on to, you know, describe other ways in which Asian people have been complicit in white supremacy, not saying that that's a universal thing or anything like that, but that there is a history of that happening. And then other writers felt the portrayal of this character plays into stereotypes about Asian people, and perpetuates the idea of Asians as foreigners and perpetuates the myth of Asian people being the quote,

unquote, model minority, where friend of the show, Olivia Truffaut Wong, wrote in a piece on Bustle entitled Why the Asian Character in Get Out Matters. She says, quote, the inclusion of such an individual in this particular context trivializes the Asian experience. The discussion of race relations between Asians and African Americans is an important one, and it deserves more than a throwaway line and a few short scenes." Unquote. So again, mixed interpretations of it, but I just wanted to- I think everyone's right. I think that it is a very nuanced conversation. A couple of things that I'll say, I want wanna first talk about the Supreme Court,

which I could talk about the Supreme Court for a long time. But I specifically wanna talk about, I don't know if you guys remember Becky with the bad grades, that girl who didn't get into University of Texas at Austin. And she was like, it is because I am being discriminated against because I am white. And she wanted to get rid of, It is because I am being discriminated against because I am white.

And she wanted to get rid of, which has successfully happened, wanted to get rid of affirmative action, which white women are the primary beneficiaries of. She wanted to get rid of affirmative action in college admissions because she didn't get into the school. And she's like, I saw people who were less qualified than me, who were black and brown who got in and they just got in because of that. Which what's funny to me is first of all,

Becky with the bad grades. UT Austin has an admissions policy where if you were in the top 10% of your high school class, you automatically get in. You can go to UT. God, I didn't know that. Yeah, no, that's what makes it so much funnier to me. She was like, well, I didn't get it.

And I'm like, okay. Okay, you weren't good enough at school. Yeah, it sounds like you should have invested more time in working on your grades, ma'am. But I do think that it is very interesting that that Supreme Court case failed when the white woman was the person behind it, but succeeded when it

was spearheaded by Asian people. And Asian people were saying that they were hurt by these quotas because people can like, were like, oh, there's too many Asian people who are excelling and who are qualified and we have to have a certain number of them. And now that we've had this policy in place for a few years, the numbers of Asian people who are getting into elite colleges has, in fact, decreased. Who'd have thunk it? And with the idea of Asians being

seen as the perpetual foreigner, which I think is very true, and it's interesting because my parents are actually immigrants, and people never assume that about me because people when they see black people in America make assumptions about you know the Atlantic slave trade and the majority of black people in America did end up here because of that. But Asian people who have been here for just as long and who you know came and were building railroads and also helped build this country are seen as foreigners, which is bad.

It's bad, end of story. But when you're applying to college, they don't see a picture of you, but they see your name. And if you have a name that sounds explicitly Asian, even if they don't see you, they make their judgments. And I think that it's really interesting that Asians were spearheading this because of that particular detail.

That there are more Asian people who have names that specifically out them as Asian than there are black people who have names that specifically out them as black, especially because black people in America, for a very long time have, and I think the tide is turning on this more now, but have specifically named their children so that they would be able to later in life be able to get jobs and be able to

have like a resume name that wouldn't get their resume thrown out. And then the other thing I wanted to say about, I forgot his name, Hiroki Tanaka, that's his name, is that Jordan Peele explicitly said that he was paying homage to, again, Rosemary's baby, because at the end of Rosemary's baby, there is one Japanese man there. And he said that it's about the double worship being a global thing. It's not just these people in this place. It is global. And I think that if we look at it from that perspective, that if we look at it from that perspective, it could be a nod to the idea that anti-blackness is global. And we think of anti-blackness and we think of black and white a lot in this country, but there are more layers and more nuance to it.

It is far reaching. Jordan Peele lists two other reasons. He was a guest on the Tiger Belly podcast hosted by Bobby Lee and Kaliah Kuhn. And they asked him about this, about this character being included in the movie. And I'll paraphrase here, but Jordan Peele, in addition to the homage to Rosemary's baby and, you know, wanting to kind of showcase how far reaching an underground society like this could be. He also said that, and we can discuss this if we want, but he wanted the fact that because the character's first language is not English and he's posing the question in a kind of more direct way than perhaps a native English speaker might ask a question like that. He wanted to like use that to heighten the awkwardness of the situation. So there's that and then he also says and also like what doesn't make sense an old Japanese

billionaire comes and wants to buy a black body, I think is what he says. He's interrupted by the host. So it's kind of hard to tell what the last few words were. But I mean, that is why all those people are there for the party. But anyway, the hosts jump in and they agree. And they're like, yeah, it makes sense to me, honestly. So those are the reasons he cites.

Yeah, I mean, you know. I don't feel like I can make any intelligent comment on this. I think Get Out is not a movie that is, I think, trying to deconstruct this particular dynamic. And I feel like it is always a slippery slope between expecting everything of one movie. But I agree with you, Karama, that like every perspective we've talked about makes total sense

and there's no like perspective on that character that, I don't know, I'd be comfortable being like, no, you're wrong, because I think you can also go into like histories of colonialism between different countries. I mean, there's's a lot of different ways to approach that conversation. In terms of also co-opting blackness for cool aesthetics, that is something that is very prevalent

in many different Asian countries. I would say most prevalent in the way that we see K-pop borrowing from, arguably stealing from, black R&B music from the 90s and sort of recreating these sort of like boys to men situations. And they even have like similar dance aesthetics and things like that. It's very much steeped in black culture. And like I saw Blackpink in concert with my mom cause I'm cool and also apparently 12. Yeah.

I love that you and your mom went together. It was, we went to Coachella together and Blackpink was headlining. So it's even cooler than you thought. But my mom was kind of like checked out during Blackpink which I expected that. That's fine. That's not her vibe.

She listens to Joni Mitchell. So I, but I was like, oh, aren't they cool? And my mom was like, I just, I'm really sick of people who are not Black taking Black things and becoming more popular than Black people. And so I don't think that the prospect of this Japanese billionaire coming to this party and wanting to co-opt Blackness in a way is that far-reaching. And I think, you know, we can have the conversation about wrestling with is it better to be experiencing xenophobia or

is it better to be experiencing what it is to be a Black American, which they're all, it's not good experiencing xenophobia or is it better to be experiencing what it is to be a black American? Which they're all, it's not good either way, I think, personally. But I also think that there is the idea that, you know, Jim talks about, I keep wanting to say Jim Henson instead of Jim Hudson. Well, because it's like Jim Hudson galleries and you've got like Jim Henson studios. Jim Henson would never. Oh, that we were talking about Jim Henson, I know. But Jim Hudson talks about like, because Chris asked the very valid question, why black people,

which also makes me think of Zoolander, why male models? very valid question, why black people? Which also makes me think of Zoolander, why male models? Oh my god, I love Zoolander. But he asks why black people? And Jim says some people want to be faster, some people want to be stronger, some people want to be cooler. And I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that a wealthy Asian businessman would want to be cooler. I just think that, oh, taking a black man's body is the way to do that. Right. I think that there is precedent for that. Yeah, I guess I like assumed that the intention of including that character was to say that

anti-blackness is a global problem and not a problem that is siphoned to white liberal Americans, even though they're obviously a disproportionate perpetrator of anti-blackness. But I also like totally understand the perspective that like having such a complicated dynamic siphoned into like one character is not gonna sit well. Yeah. Right. I think that the movie did not benefit enough into like one character is not gonna sit well. Yeah. Right.

I think that the movie did not benefit enough from that addition to be like, no, it's necessary. Yeah. I think that it's fine with it. I think it would have been just as fine without it. But I'm glad that that man got a job. That is- Even though he's not an actor.

He's Ken Marino's father-in-law. Yeah, and a karate master. Yes. What? Wait, I didn't know that. Yeah, he's not really an actor. Although there is an actor named Hiroki Tanaka. Oh, that's fun.

Different guy. Well, because a lot of the op-eds I read about this, it was like, it's a character named Yasuhiko Ayoma played by actor Hiroki Tanaka, but it's flipped. The guy's real name is Yasuhiko Ayoma, but they, I think, were just looking up what the actor's name was, and because there was an actor named Hiroki Tanaka,

they thought that that was... Anyway, so... That's so... It's so funny how in Jordan Peele's work, you occasionally just get a weird Gen X comedy connection, where you're like, oh yeah, of course Jordan Peele and Ken Marino are pals, and this would be some weird thing that would happen. In the same way that in us when you're like wait why is Tim Heidecker here and you're like oh because him and Jordan Field have probably known each other for 5 000 years. Yeah and you know the reason that he

hired this man who was not an actor is because they were doing all of the casting for the secondary characters in Mississippi and uh shockingly there are not a lot of Japanese characters in Mississippi. And shockingly, there are not a lot of Japanese actors in Mississippi. I thought it was Alabama. Oh, maybe it was Alabama. I could be wrong. Either way. But yeah, I mean, not a lot of Japanese actors in either place. Something I remember learning a while back, or maybe it was even kind of recently that sort of oh yeah it was recently because this was revealed on Graham Norton's show. I love Graham Norton. My goal in life is to be famous enough to be a guest on Graham Norton. I wish you all the best. Thank you. It's gonna happen. Daniel Kaluuya was on the show and revealed that he was not invited to the world premiere of get out at the 2017 Sundance Film Festival. He said he like cleared his schedule knowing when it would happen thinking he would be invited and

then he was just never invited and blames it on the industry. I don't I'm sure people advocated for him to be invited but yeah he just nominated just- He was nominated for an Oscar, what? I know, he was not invited, and so he did not go to the premiere. Yeah, I don't think it had anything to do with any like bad blood or anything between like him and Jordan Peele, they go on to make nope together and everything. But yeah, he just wasn't invited and, uh, someone fucked up basically.

I'm curious if like, Katherine Keener was invited and Alison Williams was invited. Maybe they weren't either, but I'm curious. Hard to say. We don't, we don't know. I haven't looked it up, but, um. He's, I just am like like he is the star of the movie Like makes me so sad that yeah, that's ridiculous Well, that's a bummer. I did not know that

however, this movie was Obviously you don't need me to tell you it tremendously successful It was made for less than $5 million and made a quarter of a billion dollars. Geez Louise. Yeah, I didn't realize it was like making its budget back 80 times successful, but it absolutely was. Obviously launched an incredible directing career

for Jordan Peele and Jordan Peele also produces a lot of a lot of directors works as well. It seems like, I mean, whatever, we love Jordan Peele and Jordan Peele also produces a lot of a lot of directors works as well it seems like I mean whatever we love Jordan Peele we don't need to belabor that point but um but that this movie got it also won Jordan Peele his first Oscar he won for best original screenplay also nomination he got a nomination for director I don't know who he lost to that year but the movie was nominated for best picture, best director, best actor for Daniel Kaluuya

and best original screenplay. And it won best original screenplay. And Jordan Peele is the first and only black person to win for best original screenplay. I will say there are like, I think seven or eight black people who have won for best adapted screenplay. I will say there are like, I think, seven or eight black people who have won for best adapted screenplay. So that's got a little bit more, a little bit more weight behind it. Yeah. And I think it's interesting that there's such a disparity

between original and adapted. And it kind of speaks to sort of the the fun thing that's happening in the industry right now where they want a sure thing and they're like this thing that was already commercially successful that we can adapt this IP we will we will take a chance on you to do that because we are pretty sure that you can't fuck it up. And that's why we don't have enough original stories from marginalized filmmakers in general. Right. Because it's like Precious, I think the guy who wrote Precious based on the novel Push by Sapphire. Famously based on the novel Push by Sapphire. It's right there on the poster. Which I think Sapphire like made them include that legally. Good for her.

Which you know because the book has a different title and it's gonna be forgotten and overshadowed by the movie and I you know what I more power to her. Yeah. But Precious based on novel pushed by Sapphire. Uh the guy who wrote that was the first black person to win best adapted screenplay. And I know that the guy who wrote 12 Years a Slave also won, I think that American Fiction most recently won. And then two of the four writers for Black Klansmen were Black as well, and they won. Which is a Jordan Peele produced movie. He's everywhere. It's all connected. He's everywhere. His influence. I'm just, I'm looking back at the Academy Awards page from this year.

It's always funny. I mean, and I like the Shape of Water a lot, but the Shape of Water sort of became the Oscar movie of the year, this particular year, where, Right. With all love to Guillermo del Toro and the Shape of Water, a movie I very much like. You know, Get Out and Lady Bird and Phantom Throne,

I mean, come on, come on. Heavy hitters. I was gunning hard for Get Out to win Best Picture and I will admit being furious that Shape of Water won instead. I mean, yeah, I mean, not only, I mean, there's so much, like horror movies are so, I mean, I think Get Out kind of changed this narrative, but not only is, you know,

Jordan Peele, a marginalized director, he's also directing a genre film, and I feel like the Oscars love to dismiss genre films up until very recently, because Get Out was so fucking good. I think only six horror films have been nominated for best picture and Silence of the Lambs is the only one that's ever won. Yeah, Exorcist too,

cause we just covered that on the, Yeah, the Exorcist. The Matriom, but it didn't win, it just was nominated. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think the Exorcist won anything. Yeah, they took away like, It won our hearts. It's true.

It was nominated for like 10 things and then won only two, I wanna say. I was kinda surprised it was nominated for that much. In any case, I mean, like Get Out broke all of these barriers and I feel like it's not very often discussed what a huge thing it was for the horror genre as well. I'm just like getting all of these, I mean because it is a masterpiece

and it is better than the shape of water. Not to pit them against each other, but that's what the Oscars is. That's true. First movie, oh no, not first, it was his first movie, it was his directorial debut. It was, yeah, he wrote Keanu, he did not direct Keanu. Yeah, you know, we don't know what Keanu could have been

had they let Jordan direct. His vision would have changed the game. I also thought it was, this was just nice. I don't, I mean, I don't know what the deal is with Ke and Peele. I feel like there's all these theories as to why they don't work together anymore. However, Get Out was made possible by Keegan-Michael Key and he introduced Jordan Peele

to a producer, director he knew, the producer of like Donnie Darko and that was like how this conversation around Get Out got started was by his friend and collaborator being like Jordan is obsessed with horror movies, he has a lot of great ideas. You should talk to him. And that was how Get Out sort of came to be. So yeah. They had a lunch and Jordan Peele pitched Get Out to this producer.

And he like bought the pitch at that very moment and paid him to write it. Different times. Truly. I know, I was like, this was 10 years ago. I actually can very confidently say that the reason that Key and Peele don't work together anymore is a disagreement

over a recipe for chibapi. That's what happened. That's obvious. It was a documentary the whole time. What if I had the tea? What if I actually had the tea? I think their careers are just going in different directions and

different people have different priorities. The Twitter algorithm is designed to torture me with speculation as to why they don't work together. So maybe it's just always on my mind because the algorithm decided that. But if anyone knows, let me know. I love when a movie, and I feel like this happens maybe most often with horror thriller type movies, but when the audience is so affected by it that they become, like for example, fatal attraction,

everyone being so scared of Glenn Close and being afraid that that would happen to them or the way that like misery made everyone be so afraid of Kathy Bates and yeah. The first time I ever saw Kathy Bates on film was in the movie Misery when I was 12. Yeah. Oh no. It was, I was too young and she was too scary

and I can't watch Matt Matlock now, sorry. You watched Titanic though. No, but that sentence was a journey. That sentence was a journey. But just the way that like certain movies will have such a cultural impact and like incite fear in so many people. I feel like Get Out is another one of those movies where on like

dating apps for a few years after this movie came out, I saw a lot of people's profiles be like, if you're a white woman, please don't get out me. Like that was a thing. So, um, so interesting. I don't remember seeing that, which doesn't mean it wasn't there. I think I've blocked out a lot of the trauma of dating apps. They're so traumatic. My favorite dating app, Copypasta, for a while was when Game of Thrones was still in the air. It was like, oh, I'm just a bastard looking for my wildling. And I'm like, okay. Cool, dude. Awesome. I'm so happy for you. The first time I saw it, I chuckled. And then I realized that guy Cool dude, awesome.

I'm so happy for you. The first time I saw it, I chuckled and then I realized that guy didn't come up with it. And I was like, oh. Isn't that such a, yeah, every time you're like, oh, that man was clever. And you're like, wait a second, that's a 30 year old movie I haven't seen, fuck you.

Yeah. He loves the office, Oh my God. Wow. So original. Wow. Or another Game of Thrones thing is I'm still not over the last season of Game of Thrones. Oh. You and 8 million other people. Shut up.

Say something original. It's been five years. Yeah, that too. Anyway, does anyone have any other thoughts about Get Out? I wanna talk about the music for a second. Because the guy who did the music was the same guy who did the music for us. And I talked a little bit about him in that.

And his name is Michael Abels and I love him. This was his first film score ever. Nailed it. Ever. In the world. He was like a professional composer, but he just never done a film. Okay. Yeah, it. Ever. In the world. He was like a professional composer, but he just never done a film. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He went to like the Thornton School of Music at USC. So he has the pedigree, he has the talent. And now he's a Pulitzer Prize winner, fun fact. He won the Pulitzer Prize for music in 2023 for an opera that he wrote called, what is it called? I don't think I wrote down what it was called. Omar, yes. Yeah. And it was about Omar ibn Said, who was an enslaved Muslim man, and he wrote an autobiography that was primarily in Arabic. And it's, I think, if not

the only, one of the only autobiographies by an enslaved person written primarily in Arabic. Wow. And I think what's interesting about Michael Abels is that, you know, he sort of cut his teeth on this very successful film, and he is a Black composer, and if you look at his work on IMDB, he has by and large worked on films that tell black stories. Like he worked on See You Yesterday. He also worked on Us and films that have primarily black cast, which I think is a really interesting calling card and,

you know, a gift to be able to do. Not exclusively those, he worked on Bad Education, which was- That weird HBO movie. I was like, huh, is that what that- My friend wrote that movie. Oh really? My friend Mike, who I saw it out with. Yes. Oh my God.

White Mike. White Mike, that's so, that's wild. Yeah. I watched that movie, I think that movie came out during the pandemic, right? It came out during lockdown, yeah. I need to rewatch it because I feel like I saw it, liked it, memory hold it because lockdown. Yeah. Highly recommend and fully biased. But my mom also liked it and she was like, Oh my God, tell Mike I'm so proud of him.

Hugh Jackman. I'm telling the truth. And Alison Janney. Okay. Yeah. I have no memory of this movie. Jackman? And I'm telling the truth. And Alison Jenner, okay. Yeah. I have no memory of this movie. I'll have to check it out. We'll talk about that education on the point. Well, cause it wasn't theatrically released. You guys should, if you wanna talk about it,

I have an in with Mike. Mike, come on the pod. That's fascinating. I didn't realize that Michael Abels had gone on to win a Pulitzer since we last talked about him. That's fucking incredible. And not the first black opera to win a Pulitzer Prize, which I thought was really interesting. There was one that I actually saw, and I'm going to be really honest, I did not like, that was about the, I think the Exonerated Five is what they're called

now, but the people who were accused of that horrible sexual assault in Central Park all those years ago and were eventually exonerated because they were in fact innocent. But there was an opera about that as well that won a Pulitzer Prize. So I think that it's interesting that there is this sort of growing world of black operas telling black stories and that Michael Abels is, you know, out there repping. Yeah.

Oh yeah. There's also the, like, I just, now that we have three Jordan Peele movies too, to pull from, like, you can see sort of how he has, like, this repeated motif of rabbits in his movies and then like the opening song and like the repeated song. Rabbit, rabbit, yeah. Where's the rabbit in, no, I don't remember the rabbit.

I don't know, there was a rabbit reference. It was not, I mean, I feel like Us is still the movie that obviously references rabbits most heavily because that opening shot lives in my mind rent-free all the time. But I've said it before and I'll say it again. The most upsetting and scary part of the movie us was the part at the beginning where they talked about all the tunnels. I can't sleep.

I'm not okay. I don't like it. Yeah. It's unsettling. Yeah. As far as the bectyl test goes i mean i think the movie probably passes i wasn't really paying attention rose and missy it like lightly passes yeah i i think that there's the conversation that missy and georgina have about how it's like you should lie down um that passes yeah but i do think the majority of the conversations are about Chris. So I don't think Missy and Rose have any one-on-one

conversations. I don't think Georgina and Rose have any one-on-one conversations. There just aren't a lot of women also. Right. There aren't a lot of people to be fair. This is true, but it does feel especially glaring knowing that Black women were mostly left out of this narrative. Right. And it just speaks to the need of more stories featuring Black women and Black people of marginalized genders and... And I will say Black women are much, much more at the center of the stories that are in us and nope.

Yes. For sure. Yeah, it's definitely not a, you know, continued glaring thing throughout his filmography. Yeah. So I, yeah. And I also, I mean, just going back to your original point at the beginning of the episode, Karama, it's like, this is a movie made by a Black man about Black men and for everyone, but it's like particularly made with that audience in mind. And that's, you know, we don't have a lot of movies like that. And yeah. And I think that he gets to tell that story. And I'm so glad that he told that story. Yeah. And I'm so glad that it resonated on this massive global scale, where on this massive global scale where people enjoyed it, people were moved by it, people were provoked to think by it,

regardless of their own personal experience. Yeah. Absolutely. As far as our nipple scale, zero to five nipples based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. I mean, and maybe this is just how much I love this movie coming into play here, but I want to give it like four or four

and a half nipples. I do feel like there could have been and should have been more inclusion of black women in this narrative. Make Lil' Rel's character, you know, cast a woman in that role. That's an active participant in the story who's, you know, helping and who saves Chris at the end, you know, that could have been something or just found other ways to include black women more significantly. So with that in mind, I think I'll give it four out of five,

but I just, I love this movie so much, and I think it has so many interesting, important things to say. And yeah, four nipples. I'll give one to Jordan Peele. I'll give one to Betty Gabriel, who plays Georgina. I'll give one to Sid the dog, and I'll give my final nipple

to the gremlins to Sketch of Keegan Peel. I'm gonna meet you at four. I agree, I mean, it's like, because this is a podcast about intersectional feminism, it cannot get the full five, unfortunately. But, you know, I think that this is, I'm glad and encouraged to see that Jordan Peele has centered and prioritized black women in the movies

that he's made since. So I would maybe grade it a little more harshly if we didn't have the sort of benefit of future knowledge. This is not a continued issue in his filmography and Get Out is just a fucking masterpiece. We didn't get into it, but I also think it was, I'm trying to remember, I think it was maybe on the press cycle for us where there was this expectation that all of Jordan Peele's movies were going to be about race and then us wasn't explicitly

about race. And it broke a lot of moviegoers' brains where they're like, wait, why are you trying to make a movie about something else? And he's like, because I'm a filmmaker and I have other things I wanna talk about. And people were like, but there's black people in it. But it's not explicitly about race. And he's like, yeah.

Like, yeah, he's had to be at the center of all of these obnoxious media press cycles. And I just like... Also, the movie was not about blackness, but it was very explicitly about the idea of stealing land and the idea of taking land from native people, indigenous people in this country. And how we're living on top of them and their second class citizens. Like that was not subtle. Absolutely not.

I mean, and I think that that just like goes back to something we've talked about on the show a lot of just like when you are a marginalized filmmaker that you are expected to only make stories that reflect your specific experience and that like original stories outside of your own experience that reflect your specific experience and that like original stories outside of your own experience that references your own experience in the way that like an executive would expect is not permissible or is like this radical act when it's like,

no, that's just what filmmakers do. And it's not an opportunity that's given do and it's not an opportunity that's given to enough marginalized filmmakers. So anyways, just Jordan Peele fucking rocks. Like his movies are so distinct and Get Out is probably one of the all-timer like directorial debuts. It's ridiculous, it's unfair, it's fucked up. He's so good. So I'm unfair, it's fucked up. He's so good.

So I'm gonna give it four nipples. I'm gonna give two to Jordan Peele, one to Daniel Kaluuya, because it's just like the wildest performance. And I'll also give one to Betty Gabriel. I am, I'm gonna come in a little lower than you guys on the nipple scale. I'm gonna give it three nipples.

I was gonna start with one, but then I heard you guys out and I was like, okay, they have points, they have points. Let me, let me, let me readjust. So I'm gonna do three nipples. I think that through the lens of intersectional feminism, the best thing that this film does is lambast the weaponization of white womanhood. And that is like, that was always going to get one of the nipples. I think it does a great job at that.

And it is very unflinching in its ability to do that. I'm going to give a nipple to Daniel Kaluuya because I've loved him since his days as Posh Kenneth on Skins. Which fun fact, he also wrote an episode of Skins. Really? God, he's so fucking cool. I forgot. I was like, where did I think I had first seen him in Black Mirror. Yes. Same. Yeah. And then I will give my final nipple to Georgina's no, no, no, no, no scene.

It's so good. I love a scene that just really stands out and it's kind of up there for me with Viola Davis in doubt, which interesting that they both involve a black woman crying, but standout performances. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we haven't brought up doubt in a while on the show. I feel about time. That's what I'm here for. I know. We found it.

We found it in the 11th hour. We brought it back to doubt. All roads on the podcast lead back to Titanic, Shrek or doubt. And occasionally Doubt. Yeah. Just worth saying, Alfred Molina could have been in this movie, but I'm just assuming he was busy. I feel like he also could have been not Jim Henson, but Jim Hudson.

Oh, see? Oh, yeah. Again, we want a disabled actor to play a disabled character, but if they were going to cast a draw, non-disabled actor, Alfred Molina. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, let's, let's speak it into an existence. A Jordan Peele Alfred Molina collaboration.

It's not a question of if, it's a question of when. And I personally can't wait for when. Yes. Well, Karama, thank you so much for joining us. Once again, come back anytime. Thank you so much for joining us once again. Come back anytime. Thank you so much for having me again. We love having you tell us where people can follow you online and check out your work. I am at Karama Drama on all platforms, including yes, I'm back on Twitter. I came crawling back.

I bear with you. I had a thought about yogurt and I had no one to tell it to. I wish I were joking, but that's what brought me back. I was like, strawberry yogurt is that bitch and no one can tell me otherwise. You're like, okay, I'm reactivating. I'm reactivating. So Karama drama on Twitter, Instagram, occasionally TikTok, but really not really.

I it's too much, man. I'm too old. I'm too fucking old. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. I'm a watcher. I'm just not a creator. I don't have it in me.

I'm like a plus commenter though. I feel like my comment game on point. So if you follow me, I'll comment on your stuff. Where can they find you guys? Oh my gosh. You can follow me at Caitlin Durante on Instagram. And you can follow us on Bechtelcast also on Instagram and our Patreon slash matri on two episodes a month.

It's five dollars a month. And it's always on a fun little theme that Jamie and I cook up. Yes. That's less than a latte, honestly, a steal. Exactly, exactly. And you get our back catalog of over 150 episodes. It's a blast.

We've been having fun over there. We just are finishing up horror movies. We just covered The Exorcist, which is why The Exorcist is top of mind. We did The Exorcist and Pearl over on the Matri on this month. If you choose to check it out, it's a blast over there. You can get merch at teepublic.com slash The Bechtelcast, which is the name of the podcast.

I just almost said it wrong. And with that, I'll hail the TSA. Yes. Wow. Yes. Bye. Bye. The Bechtel Cast is a production of iHeart Media,

hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Voskrasensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.bechtelcast.

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