The Bechdel Cast - G.I. Jane with Rhiannon Hamam

Episode Date: September 11, 2025

 This week, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Rhiannon Hamam discuss baldest woman movie G.I. Jane (1997)! Follow Rhiannon on Instagram at @basicrhiannon and check out her podcasts 5-4 and Popular Cradle Podcast!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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on her. Basically he wants to see if they can find anything to discredit her because this Hayes guy wants the program to fail. But she's doing pretty good. She's made it through the first week of training. she's getting the hang of things she's getting into peak physical shape doing a lot of you know pull-ups and push-ups but not wearing a sports bra which I don't know why you do that she wants to be just like everyone else they're not wearing sports bras why should she

exactly and she's starting to earn the respect of some of the men though others like Cortez and Slavnik still have this like sexist rivalry which which is sort of part of what's at the core of her very feminist goal is to earn their respect of men exactly yes absolutely yep then there's a part where Jordan struggles to pull her own body weight onto a raft that's speeding by so the master chief questions if she's strong enough to be there and this is happening in a scene where she's taking a shower and he just comes in and she's naked and they're both just like shrug. This is the scene where Israel is mentioned. Yes. Drink. We have an Israel mentioned. That was like in a scene where you're already like flat on your ass like what am I watching and then

he brings up Israel and it cuts to naked Dimmie Moore. I'm like what the fuck is this? What are we doing? He's like you know the I.O.F is awesome actually. and then he's like and you're too weak to be here anyway want to be in charge of boat number six I well and she also manages to get a girl boss in there too where she's like is it

also talking sort of in reference to I guess America and Israel where she's like well how did you get your little thing how did you get your little your metal and it's like saving a woman is bad saving a man is good it makes you think I was like this you're naked you're you're he's your boss and you're naked like this so it's at this part of

the story that I really started to worry that they're going to wedge in some like love story between the two of them because it sort of starts to kind of I think in a different movie or maybe there was just another draft of this script where like there was that okay I had a feeling yeah we'll talk about it that there I went through because I was like why did this movie not get because there's I mean the whole military entertainment complex usually comes down to weirdly like

one guy and it was one guy for like 35 years who would be the one to decide if you are going to get the full force support of the American military to make your shitty movie and this one guy ended up saying no and not signing off on G.I.J. And one of the

original reasons that Ridley Scott did agree to change was that she was originally dating her superior in the Navy which I'm assuming would have been the Vigo Mortensen character so that might just be left over from that I'm not sure but yeah I'm like why is this scene here where he's like it's not overtly sexualized well she isn't in the shower but he is kind of like looking her up and down and she is naked and he's not and so it's very bizarre and they get very close to face to face yeah it is introducing sexual tension here and it feels like it very overtly we're supposed to

think demi more is hot demi more is sexy you know yeah yeah so the movie doesn't culminate in any kind of love story between them but it feels like it was like starting to drop some hints anyway then there's this like simulation mission thing it's i'm like capture the flag but like military industrial complex style, where Jordan leads her team, she's delegating tasks, but Cortez and Slavnik refused to take orders from her because she's a woman and they get themselves and everyone else on the team captured. The master chief beats the shit out of Jordan. He acts like he might rape her. In front of everybody. Yeah. In front of everybody. Because, by their logic, this is what she quote unquote wanted for them to not go easy on her just

because she's a woman, but she doesn't give up any information. Then she fights back and kicks the shit out of the master chief. And this is when she goes, suck my deck. And now he respects her and so do her other fellow trainees. enough to invite her out for a drink when they have some R&R time. Which also, it's so frustrating where, like, her sort of one pal who is always, like, she's, whatever, the feminism nurse or whatever. But she, like, this is another sort of decisive moment for the Debbie Moore character where she's, like, she tells the other girls, she's like, I can't hang out. The boys finally invited me.

I'm like, God. You suck. You suck. Yeah. So she goes to hang out and drink with the guys. But she also goes on the like little beach picnic outing with the women at the training center who I think are mostly medics. And a reporter is there taking more secret photos of the women. And the high ranking men see the photos and pull Jordan aside and say it looks like. you were fraternizing with other women in a gay way and Jordan is like no this is just women hanging out

but the men want to pull her out of training and give her a desk job basically demote her I think and she's enraged and she rings that bell that signals that you want to quit the navy seal training and she leaves and goes back home her boyfriend Royce is the they reconcile and he shows her some reports and letters and stuff and it seems like senator de haven the woman who was originally advocating for jordan is the one who hired the photographer to sabotage jordan's training yeah it turns out she's a cowardly bitch you know she really is and these are the reasons that i only very vaguely understand and can barely articulate but it's something like she I think she's a senator in Texas and there are these different

military bases in Texas that are in danger of being shut down so she kind of like trades does some kind of trade with someone to prevent the bases from being shut down in exchange for kind of selling out Jordan I think is what was happening right yeah like she's going to lose reelection if these bases get shut down like the voters right will turn again against her or something and so with this threat looming she saves the bases over saving Jordan right right which of course a senator would do right but it's like this is where like the ultimate dissidents comes in where she's like no that I I need to be a Navy seal and it's like lady you don't you do not need to be a name there is a funny like there's like a repeated it's just

like a bad writing thing. But the Anne Bancroft character in this scene says a few different times. She's like, well, if you think you're going to change my mind, then pull up a chair or like, go to sleep or like you're going to be here for a long time. It's past your bed time.

Yes. I was like, what do you? Okay, whatever. So Jordan threatens to expose the senator for being a lying piece of shit, I guess, unless Dehaven gets

Jordan back into the Navy SEALs training program. Cut to Jordan returns to complete her training and she and the others are about to do, I think this is sort of like their last thing, an operational readiness exercise in the Mediterranean Sea. But then they get called to go on a real life military mission in Libya. Yeah. And they're not done with training yet. And they're being asked like, okay, no, you've got to do Navy SEAL mission right now. Yes. And we've seen how fucked up these people are. Right.

What an amateur show this is. I'm like, I don't think they're ready. And the mission is also vague, but I think they have to do some sort of rescue or extraction thing, I'm guessing, rescuing some American soldiers in Libya. And we'll talk about the way. the country and Libyan characters are portrayed, but basically there's, you know, a big third act battle. The master chief needs to be saved. And Jordan kind of takes charge. She's giving orders. And then she ultimately gets the master chief to safety. They make it out and they return to the

US where Jordan officially makes it into the Navy SEALs after successfully, completing her training. The end. Yay. We! So let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss. And we're back. Rihanna, is. And we're back. Where to begin? Oh, gosh. Riannon, is anything jumping up to you? You know, it really is hard to choose. Is it the racism, the Orientalism? Is it, you know, this really military propaganda? Is it the dissonant and illogical, superficial feminism? It's quite difficult.

You know, I think something that stuck with me throughout every scene in which Jordan is insulted or even, like, sabotaged, you know, her, the, the fellow Navy SEAL trainees, you know, actively try to sabotage her and make her look bad every time even, and I think this culminates in the scenes where they're doing this sear training, the capture the flag exercise. Right. It really culminates in this, in this part where Vigo Mortensen physically assaults. I mean, it's a really, it's actually like difficult to watch.

It's like she's actually getting like truly, truly violently beat up. And then he acts like he's about to sexually assault her in front of everybody. There's blood, like all of this stuff. What is sticking with me throughout every single one of these horrifically sexist examples is not that anybody like learns a true lesson about sexism or that that kind of overt sexism is wrong. It's that Jordan overcomes it. And actually, you know, Master Chief Vigo Morton said, did it all for the right reasons. So that...

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The diva of the people. I'm just like text your act. My theory is that if you need to figure out that the stove is hot, go and touch it. Go and figure it out for yourself. Okay. That's us. That's us. My name is Curley.

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There's a lot of people battling some of the very same things you're battling. And there is help out there. The Good Stuff Podcast, Season 2, takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a nonprofit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month. So join host Jacob and Ashley Schick as they bring you to the front line. lines of one tribe's mission. I was married to a combat army veteran and he actually took his own life to suicide. One tribe saved my life twice. There's a lot of love that flows through

this place and it's sincere. Now it's a personal mission. Don't want to have to go to any more funerals, you know. I got blown up on a React mission. I ended up having amputation below the knee of my right leg and a traumatic brain injury because I landed on my head. Welcome to season two of the Good Stuff. Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you your podcast. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented

correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs, aimed to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was so overwhelming, and you don't know who's next to you.

And we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything. Listen to shock incarceration on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. could prove herself so that the team will get behind her you know afterwards he tells an officer another officer who says like hey i think you kind of went too far on that he tells an officer you don't you don't get it she isn't the problem we are and i did right like i did it for all the right reasons and this is this is the entire movie it's really sick yeah right and it's they don't like

you said no one really learns anything it's just that she has sort of assimilated into man behavior, quote unquote, which is the problem with any sort of girl boss feminism, where it's like women can uphold imperial institutions too. Women can commit war crimes too. And that's the logic of the movie. I feel like this movie even takes out a step further where like, I think in your prescriptive girl boss narrative,

it's like, oh, yes, women can, commit horrific atrocities women can be billionaires women can do you know a B and C but this one is also predicated out of the fact that like her whole mission is to be treated

like a man like it's you know Cheryl Sandberg shit where I feel like it's even worse where I feel like in some girl boss narratives it's like oh and now the guns are pink or whatever the fuck she's like she's not even asking for the gun to be pink like she's she's like i want to do war crimes just like everyone else i she is so vested in not

questioning the system she's participating in to a kind of scary degree she has no questions her mission is to be completely swallowed whole by it yeah let me prove it to you i can do i can do war crimes i'm actually really good at it if you just let me you just beat me up like everybody else yeah i don't care about feminism i'm not trying to be some poster child for women's I just want to be a bloodthirsty war criminal. Right. And that's, I do think it's like an interesting idea, not in the scope of this movie at all. It is an interesting idea to not want to be the poster child for something.

I think that that is like an interesting narrative tension. But in the context of this movie, it makes her an even more confusing character because like I get to the extent that she doesn't want to be a poster child. she doesn't want the media to hyper fixate on her that's fair right she doesn't want all these things to happen yeah but like she doesn't even take issue with the sexism that she does experience like she gets annoyed when like the i mean in the beginning where the i don't know what the fucking title is but the the first guy she needs before vigo mortensen lays out sort of like okay here is what we're going to do to sort of protect you from what is almost certain to be a very hostile group of people towards you.

Yeah. And she's like, no, I don't want to be like, which is just sending, well, I mean, this expands so much because like, obviously there is real life misogyny and homophobia in the military, which is shown here, but it has no interest in questioning those policies. It's just questioning it in regards to this one character who's like, I don't care about that. So what is this movie even trying to accomplish? Yeah.

It feels like it's just trying to not only enlist women into the American Imperial Project, it's also saying, be quiet about the, like, about the gender discrimination you've heard about, shut up. Like, if you were a real soldier, you wouldn't, quote, unquote, complain about it. Yeah. And any even minuscule nod to like, oh, there might be a systemic problem here. For example, when Vigo Mortensen, after almost killing Demyon, more like we're supposed to understand right by physical assault in front of people after he does

this and he says the thing about like she isn't the problem we are and this is why this is why i did this right saying we are if he's referring to like whatever the u.s military or something like there's no there's no then like next step which is like okay if this is if you're saying this is a systemic problem here there's no next step of like oh how why how might we fix that the solution is like a honorably, I beat her up in front of people. Right. Like, it's not even, like, there's not even an interest in, like, accomplishing a very, like, what also would have been a bullshit, like,

centrist propaganda to this movie. Yeah. Yeah. It can't even do that because the movie also hates their Nancy Pelosi character. So it's like, I don't know what to do with, like, I mean, it's a, it's a right-wing movie. Totally. Yeah. I mean, like, it seems to be saying.

well there's sexism everywhere so of course there's going to be sexism in the military but the movie is like otherwise completely uncritical of any systemic issues within the military and the military itself which is a tool to uphold u.s imperialism and do lots of violence including sexist violence all over the world you know for sure and it's basically just saying like yeah the military is awesome and women should want to be a part of it. And that type of jingoism is still being used today, obviously, not only to recruit for the military, but to recruit ICE agents. I've seen people likening the signing bonus and the relatively high salaries for ICE agents, likening that to incentives the military has historically offered to encourage people to

enlist so and the fact that uh the vico mortensen character you know references the idf in the scope of of by far the darkest scene in the movie to be and there is and it's a hard contest because he also almost kills her i mean i that is used in idf logic all the time is that like we love women and women are a part of like when it's conscripting to a genocide it's just i don't know i would was so shocked at how how this movie wouldn't even get to I guess the very low 1990s girl boss feminism it doesn't even like clear that no it sure doesn't and then you have the whole third act of the movie which is this mission in Libya where again unclear exactly what they're doing it says they're doing an extraction thing but I don't think we ever see that

Which based on the documents, not to be a spy, but based on the documents that I was seeing, that is very, very intentional. And I think that reminds me of like a lot of when the American military is involved in a movie. They never want to draw your attention to exactly what is being done in the movie. That's why in the most recent, I didn't see it, but in like the Top Gun reboot, they're fighting a country that doesn't even exist. unnamed so vague yeah i remember that about that so that's very much a part of the playbook where they're like okay we're willing to name the country that we are killing civilians in but we don't want to say exactly what we're doing or what the goal is because you don't want to think about that too hard because it's violent yeah a couple mentions of the word plutonium right like satellite cells

like something extraction right and it's just supposed to be like it's it is shoving it is shoving imperial violence down your throat but to such a vagueness that like you are assumed to be on their side anyway right like you're this is acceptable because surely what's going on in Libya is bad and those are bad guys doing it right like that's that's that's it there's this baseline assumption not criticized or not like engaged at all right like it's just playing on prejudices they're assuming the audience already has right the idea that like well we're in an Arab country so of course it's full of terrorists and those people's lives are expendable and the navy has car blanche to shoot and kill whoever because they are the enemy and even before Libya gets

mentioned someone says like oh we're getting called to this mission where Iran or Iraq and it's like no another one another enemy country quote unquote so yeah and then just like the way the country of Libya is portrayed, the score that starts playing once we're in Libya. Stereotypical, like, Arul, which is like an Arab, Middle Eastern, ancient kind of flute, wind instrument is the score. So you're like, oh, they're in Arabia. They're landing on the beach in Arabia. Right.

Like, truly at every level, this movie is trying to play on American prejudices. Yeah, the way they make Libya look, like this dusty, barren, decrepit wasteland. The brown filter they put on those scenes in post-production that makes everything just look dusty and dirty. The way the people of Libya are presented, they're hostile, they're needlessly violent. Like, forget that the U.S. Navy has just invaded this country for unclear reasons and are killing anyone they see. And we'll continue to for decades after. Yeah. So just absolutely horrific.

And I think that, like, another, I honestly do not know the name of this character because I couldn't keep track of all the boy names. But there is exactly one black character who we get to know. I thought this was a very, very, very ugly play to make. His name is McCool. All the names are so silly. Okay, so McCool, also he has to give this speech while actively treading water, which is like, that doesn't seem fair to that actor, but whatever. So where, you know, and it's done in this very 90s way where it's equating the struggle of black soldiers with the struggle of women's soldiers as if it's an identical struggle. But the only black soldier we get to know is McCool, apparently.

And he references very real prejudice in the American military against black people, which is a very, you know, that's an important thing to talk about. Like it is a very valid subject. but it's brought up for all the wrong reasons. It's brought up to say like, oh, no, you know, G.I. Jane, like, I totally understand your struggle, like, because my grandfather was treated this horrible way by the American military. And then they proceed to push back on that system, not at all. Like, and especially in a movie that is racist in general. It feels like Ridley Scott is like, or the writers of this movie, sorry, he didn't write this. Twohy and Danielle Alexandra, girl boss.

Danielle, what the fuck? But they're, you know, they're basically weaponizing this true fact about how racist the American military is to excuse all the other racism that the movie is guilty of perpetrating. And also that's the only thing we ever learn about McCool. We never, uh, he speaks in other scenes. Like, I think all the. guys sort of, with the exception of like the bully guy and Vika Mortensen, they're all like

about the same amount of active in the scene. But the fact that they go out of their way to be like, oh, our one black character, he and his family have experienced racism. And that's all we're going to tell you. And that's what defines him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because you have like the Jim Cavizal character who's obsessed with tampons being near him. Oh yeah. That's the one thing we learn about him. Yeah. Cortez. Tampos are scary. Cortez is the guy. who like sabotages her and like doesn't help her over the wall and then vigo mortensen sees that and he's like wow i better combat this sexism by threatening to rape a woman in front of everyone yeah yeah what you're never going to get in this movie and look i don't expect hollywood to give this

kind of analysis to us i'm not saying right in 1997 that hollywood and dimmy more we're going to make the kind of movie I'm about to describe. But you never get from this movie that the U.S. military is inherently by design, racist, sexist, transphobic, because it is an expression of capitalism by imperialism, right? These things are not designed to be inclusive or diverse, right? Like, this is this is a structure and a system that truly is not. reformable. Jamie, you said it earlier, like this is a right-wing movie, right? Like, this is, and the military, the U.S. military, is like a right-wing conception, you know, a structure. And so,

yeah, you're never going to get that. You're going to get, what you're going to get from this movie is a peek inside quite glamorized individual experiences of individual discrimination, you know but but but not like oh you know the u.s. military was racist during world war two it's still racist it's still super sexist and like wonder wonder what's going on there you know but at the end of the day it's the military we've got yeah and so I guess in a way it's really cool and at the end of the day they're shooting Arabs so that's great you know that is like very much what the third act is telling yeah yeah it's yeah this movie is evil this is super dark has an evil and there's there's so much uh so i wanted to we talked about

this in a couple different episodes i know we definitely talked about it in our top gun episode believe we also talked about it way back in the day in our independence day episode and also transformers because the american government uh the american military was involved in the making of all of these movies. Now, I mean, I did not finish it, but I am bravely in the middle of watching a documentary called Operation Hollywood, How the Pentagon Shapes and Censors movies.

I've heard of this. Yeah, it's on YouTube for free. It's a little dated because it's from, I think, from like the early to mid-2000s, but it is a sort of breakdown of exactly how this system works. So for listeners who haven't heard of those other episodes or haven't heard us talk about it in a while. Basically, there is a specific job that is, it's a guy named Phil, essentially, for a long time.

At this time, it was a guy named Philip Strubb, who is the DOD's film liaison is the name of the title. And so from 1989 to 2018, this was a job that basically this guy would go over scripts that wanted to have, I, bases or tanks, weapons, whatever it is, lent out to them at a lower rate in exchange for reflecting the American military in a positive way. It's a propaganda unit, right? And to be clear, obviously, there was a ton of military propaganda in cinema, like going back to its very existence, but it took them until the 80s to make this unit. And it is in direct response to Top Gun. Top Gun came out in 86. And famously, there was a huge. enlistment spike in response to its popularity. And that was when the DoD, I guess, realize, well,

if this is going to be a trend in movies, we want to be directly involved with it. And so that is why this department was created. And it really does seem to just be this guy. So every movie from 89 to 2018 is going through him. Now it goes through this guy named David Evans. Very, very little is known about these guys by design I am sure but there is there were a and again I cannot vouch for this website but a website called spyculture

com pretty cool sounds legit they in spy culture nature they did leak some documents this is from a couple years ago how the Pentagon rewrote G.I. Jane and there are 25 pages of documents

that they were able to access that were between the office of Ridley Scott and Philip Strubb about this movie. And with specificity, what exactly the DOD wanted changed about this movie and what Ridley Scott's responses, what the concessions he did make and the concessions that he didn't. And so the long and short of it is that this movie was not signed off by the DOD explicitly because it showed that there's sexism in the Navy. And so they were like, sorry, Mr. Scott, the premise is flawed.

The Navy isn't sexist. There's no sexism here. But that does not mean that Ridley Scott did not make significant concessions to this. So I'm just going to read from this article. What were the Pentagon's objections? They didn't have any issue with the basic plot of a woman going through special forces training, but they did have a problem with almost everything else. One problem was that they didn't want the training identified as being for the Navy SEALs, but wanted Scott to invent a fictional special unit that O'Neill was trying to get into. So again, that's a trend of like let's not talk about exactly what we're doing because then people might think about it yeah they didn't like o'neill's boyfriend being her superior so that was changed a scene between the CEO at the training base and o'neill was considered too sexist but scott didn't want to change that o'neill shaving her head was considered out of line and scott replied can be negotiated which i don't think it was but um the scene where the chief confronts o'neal while she's naked and having a shower, quote, presents privacy policy issues, quote, unquote, which Scott agreed to change, which he didn't. A scene where a seal urinates in a foxhole in front of O'Neill had the DOD conceding

that it addressed, quote, issues related to the presence of women in frontline combat roles, unquote, but, quote, carries no benefit to the U.S. Navy, unquote. They also didn't like the sequence depicting survival evasion resistance escape training, which seized the master's chief imprisoning waterboarding and beating up trainees, including the protagonist. So that's in. That's in the movie. So those are the reasons why the DOD did not ultimately sign off on this movie, because one of the heroes, waterboards another hero.

However, that does not mean that significant. So I guess the question is, what is the agenda of this movie, if not to get the support of the DOD? Because it doesn't. And Ridley Scott does not end up. like really getting the what I don't know exactly what the benefits are but the ostensible benefits you would get so what the fuck is this movie trying to do like it's baffling right right if it's not going to bother to bend over backwards to get the seal

of approval from the Department of Defense then but it's still like but the military is awesome and like let's make this movie basically as recruitment propaganda to specifically encourage women, question mark, to join the military? Join the military and never ask a question. Like, yeah. Yeah, no, the dissonance here, the, it's really, it's sort of nonsensical in a lot of ways, plot-wise, dialogue, and then the kind of like politics of it are really nonsensical as well. you know, what, what, what, what was Ridley Scott's goal? What are, what were the, what are the, what are the goals of the writers here? What's, what's, what's Demi Moore's goal in being in this, you know? There's like a lot of, I think there's a lot to unpack there. I can. I, I know a little bit about that because I did not remember, I don't know. I just did not remember the like cultural conversation around this movie. But,

So apparently this was Demi Moore at a time in her career where, like, she was sort of waning in popularity. She had just starred in a huge box office bomb called Strip Tees, which was notorious for being a horrible movie and people hated her performance. So she was already, I mean, and this is this is sort of, I guess, unfortunately, a more kind of classic tale of how actresses are disposable. and then Demi Moore making the choice to star in a U.S. imperialist narrative to try to undo that and rescue her career. I think it seems like what her motivation here was, was to kind of dig herself out of the hole that she'd been thrown into by striptease and try to remark it herself as an action star by doing this. But by all accounts, it didn't work. And it seems like, I mean, and it's, I don't like this movie is fucking horrible and evil and people were very like weirdly sexist to Demi Moore for having been in it like they blamed the movie sucking wholly on her she like won a razzie which feels like an overcorrection because it's like there's so many issues with this movie I wouldn't put her performance in the top 10 of those issues agree I agree I actually okay you know let's take the script and the movie and and everything for

what it is her acting is not it's not the problem it's not the problem yeah it's not the problem yeah it's not the problem that makes this movie land the way it lands you know right and she's and like so it's just from what i can tell i mean that she she was just pretty like squarely scapegoated for this movie is unpopularity even though i will say at the time there were reviews of this movie that were like uh this movie is too jingoistic for me to engage with so even in the 90s. Like, people were not just, uh, taking their slop, which was, I don't know. I guess I was pleasantly surprised that not everyone was just taking the slop. Yeah. But then you get into like, I don't know. Ridley Scott, I don't know. He's made 4,000 movies. He's 500 years old. So can we get to

the bottom of what his whole deal is? Probably not. He also made House of Gucci, which I forgot. Oh my gosh. He directed that. That's hilarious. Wow. He made the last duel at House of Gucci savior. He's just an in a nickname. An enigma. Anigma. He's booked and busy. He'll do anything. But he, I mean, his other, I mean, you could argue his most famous characters, he directed

the first Blade Runner. But he also, I mean, his most famous character, you could say is Ellen Ripley. Yeah. Right? I would, yeah, I would agree with that. And she is also in the American military. So, like, he, like, there's a soft spot in Ridley Scott's heart for white women in the military. A U.S. military story.

Yeah. Yeah, like, I don't know. And there has been a lot made of over the year. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change.

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the Houston Lab that takes on the most hopeless cases, to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Super Secret Bestie Club podcast season four is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy chisement. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex. No, no, no, no.

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And I'm Maya. In each episode, we'll talk about love, friendship, heart breaks, men, and of course, our favorite secrets. Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club as a part of the Marco Tura podcast network available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York state number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training.

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And in the new season of the Overcover podcast, I'm taking you on an exciting journey of self-reflection. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? I wanted to be successful on my own, not just because of who my mom is. Like, I felt like I needed to be better or work twice as hard as she did. Join me for conversations about healing and growth. Life is freaking hard.

And growth doesn't happen in comfort. It happens in motion, even when you're hurting. All from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen. Honestly, these are going to come out so freaking amazing. Be a part of my new chapter and listen to the new season of the over-comper. podcast as part of the MyCultura podcast network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. ...of like, wow, Ridley Scott for a male O'Toore has women as his protagonist pretty often,

which is true. I have not seen all of his movies, but they're, you know, examples, obviously alien, Thelma and Louise, Prometheus, which I didn't see, G.I. Jane. Like, I know that the last duel. centers around a woman house of Gucci look they're not all good but it does happen with some frequency but it is always I think without fail a white woman and and also he he doesn't write the scripts so he's sort of just a gun for hire clearly he has an interest in this but it's a very particular kind of woman he has interest in yeah can I bring up a very short exchange in GI Jane which

I think almost completely encapsulates the nonsensical politics of this movie. Please. When Jordan has survived the torture session, training session, capture the flag. When she's survived it and she's at the bar with the guys, she's done it. She's in, you know, like this is almost like a scene with a victory lap where she's finally in with the boys. She's one of the guys. Wait, I think I know what you're going to say. She goes to the bathroom.

Is this right, Jamie? Yep. She goes to the bathroom. Oh, and after all of this has happened to her, she's very physically injured. Her face, like she has black eyes. She has a huge, like, red mark on the side of her face. Yeah. She's obviously been beat up, right?

Yeah. She goes to the bathroom. She's in the women's restroom. She's at the sink. And another woman is in there who walks past her. and set, after, you know, looking at her and noticing what her face looks like, she walks past her and she says, ain't really my business, but I say leave the bastard. Which is like, so this woman has assumed that Demi Moore's character is in a situation of like

intimate partner violence, domestic violence, right? And that like her partner, a man has beat her up. And Demi Moore, G.I. Jane, Jordan O'Neill, turns and gives like a little bit of a smirk. like doesn't say anything in response the woman leaves the bathroom but she kind of smirks and I think like what we're supposed to interpret is like it wasn't that she's actually succeeded at something really big and accomplished something important but like actually what did happen was that she was beat up by a man yes you know what I mean she was physically assaulted by men she is in an abusive relationship yes in which a lot of people would say she should leave yeah so it's so it's so it's so wild it

really is well it's like and that yeah and that lady is made to look ridiculous and it's like no you actually unfortunately guessed it exactly and but it's like but this movie cannot I think it's like well what what is the stopping point because it's like well if what is happening to to me more is abuse than what's happening to all of the soldiers is abuse and you're like yeah yeah what if it was like like yeah yeah yes but again just like going right up to the line of like but we cannot interrogate the system why i i don't know i really don't know the other uh exchange that because and i feel like that that exchange and this one like really tells you what the movie is about for some reason what is the okay in one of her many like would you say that to a woman which there are

times to ask that question very rarely when she does though where it's like she's talking to her her nurse friend you know and she her nurse is like why are you doing this yeah and it is kind of gendered the way she's asking it I wish she was asking it more in the royal why are we doing this can we stop right but she says why are you doing this and then Demi Moore says would you ask a man the same question blah blah blah and then like and what do they say when you ask them that question and the nurse replies they say they say, because I get to blow shit up. And then instead of, again, instead of interrogating that,

Demi Moore's character says, well, there you go. And then the scene is over. And you're like, well, I guess that's what the fucking movie is about. Because I get to blow shit up does feel like sort of the moral of the story. Yeah. Yeah. And anything, being a victim of any kind of violence is worth it so that you can blow shit up.

Yeah. This is like the moral of the story. It's boggling. We touched on this a bit already, but the one bit of commentary, I suppose, that the movie does seem to offer is that this senator woman who does this, like, gender integration into the military project, originally kind of under the guise of feminism and championing women, but she abandons all that to further her political career. As soon as her own career is being threatened, she drops any advocacy she was doing. Fuck that. I'm looking out for me and myself, which happens all the time in American politics. I mean, look at fucking AOC pretending to be this progressive voice

and then voting to keep sending money to Israel, you know, shit like that. But that commentary means basically nothing in a movie that's saying, well, yeah, sure, politicians are corrupt, but the American military is good, actually. That's, I mean, they're the underdog. You're like, what do you mean? What are you talking about? There's a scene earlier, first half of the movie for sure, maybe even first quarter of the movie in which the guy in the highest command position at the base or training center where the trainees are at, he's on the phone with the senator.

This is when the photos first go public, you know, there's some sort of investigative reporter taking pictures with a telephoto lens and these are getting leaked to the public and all of a sudden the public knows that a woman is in the training program for the Navy SEALs. So the senator calls the high-ranking officer and is like, what the hell? You know, this wasn't supposed to go public. What's going on? And the officer guy says, like, you know, a senator, these photographers are using telephoto lenses.

There's nothing I can do. They're on a public highway. Now, unless you want me to violate the Constitution and violate their civil. liberties I can't do anything about that and you wouldn't want that would you senator and it's like the military cares about the constitution right they're they're doing ice detentions right now they're using military bases for for kidnapping migrants so yeah no that's yeah the u.s military is in no way the good guy in in any in any situation and certainly not legally right i mean and i think it is like a very like a very like a very like calculated thing to present the military as the good guys

but not present the entire government as the good guys like they it's almost like it's a like a lot of copaganda narratives it's like the there's there are bad apples yeah and anne bancroft is a bad apple she is too craven and ambitious certainly not the head of the military especially if you go back to the beginning and like she i think accurately points out that he was wildly sex at many points in his career, but we're just meant to forget that. Because the moral of

Demi Moore's story is that embracing masculinity and all of its horrors is good for you. And so it doesn't matter if even, I don't know, like, because the Ambrant Bankrupt character is like, it's almost frustrating

that you're like, yeah, this is, these are real people that do this. But there is no one in the military who is presented as they would actually be. Or if they are, it's like, and that's good, and that's the job. But when this other character is craven and horrible, it's bad. There's no rules. Right.

Exactly. I had a note that the scenes in this movie, we're moving at like breakneck speed. It is rapid. The scenes in this movie, I don't know if we want to talk about this. y'all are 45 seconds long, especially in the first half. And we're establishing so much information. And we are moving at such an intense wild pace. And yeah, this is editorial choice for sure.

And it's always this like, there are these like hard cuts to the next scene. And they're usually accompanied by this like really epic music when it's like nothing epic happened like why are we like yeah it's either epic music or like 90s adult contemporary it's so dissonant we should turn to the score maybe yeah because there are some choices made about 90s women yeah ballads yeah in very key scenes there some of them I was laughing because you're just like it's absurd yeah there is uh Chrissy Hinds where I was like that and I also hate that you know it's like these people would have had to have agreed to have their song put in this I what I don't know I guess is do you get to see the movie before you like decide if your song is able to be used I'm assuming no but either way it's horrible that's an interesting question yeah whether whether these women artists would have approved their song being used in the movie had they seen it before yeah I mean even if you agree to the premise it's still Right. That's true. Either way, Chrissy Hyne put two of her songs in the Girl Boss Navy Seals movie.

Yeah. So, you know, that's that's on her. It was clockable. Yeah, it was clockable beforehand. You're right. But yeah, it does, it does feel like the, the songs are weaponized. Yes. But that was, I mean, like, not to defend anything here, but like the feminism, the girl boss feminism of the 90s, this movie is very emblematic. of that and that was sort of what we were like yeah this is feminism because we just weren't in terror i mean there are episodes early episodes of the show i feel like on the rock oh yeah we were not asking the right questions yeah i was not saying good things on that episode like being critical enough of the military industrial complex but yeah this was this was very reflective of the times there are two things i do like about this movie one is the scene where Jordan and her boyfriend are in the bathtub together and then he gets out

of the bathtub and she says, get your dick back in here. Oh my God. I like this movie's trying so hard. So hard. Also that weird fart. What is that fart joke that the like? Oh yeah. What the hell was that? That was a brain fart. Like a soldier, that was a brain fart and I don't accept brain farts in my, you said something stupid. Soldier, that was a brain fart, and I don't accept that in my office. The script was bad, but also the actor was not selling it at all. Or I was like, what the hell? Like, yeah, silly silly.

Yeah, didn't like that. Did love get your dick back in here. And then there's also a part where the, whatever, the officers are screaming at and berating the trainees, you know, hurling insults at them. And one of the things they say is worm, sports. berm and that's just that's that's funny that's good i'll go ahead and put that in my pocket yeah yeah i'll say that again thank you daniela actually but everything else was bad uh we also touched on this a bit but the way demi more's body is again this is not the worst offender of

over sexualizing a woman's body and leering at her, but there are some weird choices made where, for example, there's that little montage where she's by herself trying to get stronger doing push-ups and pull-ups and stuff. And it seems like she is not only not wearing a sports bra, but she's not wearing any bra. And like, no shade to not wearing a bra in general. But when you're doing like very hard physical exercise like that doesn't make any sense and it's it's very much seems like it's a well we have to make sure we see her hard nips through this white tank top yes yeah she's got to be she's got to be sweaty and we need to see the edges of her body in every respect because throughout the movie you know the naked where she's naked in the shower with

with Vigo Mortensen in in the space with her this is another thing like throughout we have to have these almost like signposts remember Demi Moore is hot remember Demi Moore is sexy you know like it's reminding the audience constantly like yeah we're kind of saying a girl has a brain and a girl has a body that can accomplish things physically just like men but also girls are hot but we're told at the very very big I mean it is by I guess who we're supposed to think is the villain of the movie, even though she's tied for top villain with so many characters. But we're told at the beginning of the movie, like, the limits to which, because we're shown, we're shown literally pictures of women who are not acceptable. And, like, Demi Moore is acceptable.

And the camera is not fighting with the villain of the movie on that whatsoever. Yeah, yeah, the movie isn't taking that up critically. They're like, yeah, you're right, she is hot. You do have to, you do have to be hot to be respected. You're like, oh, yeah, right. And the senator isn't even poised as the villain at first. We think that she's advocating for women's rights for up until probably 60% of the way through the movie. And that's the bummer.

It's like, again, just like with the theme of this movie, that by the end of the movie, no one is advocating for women's rights, even disingenuously. Like we've actually lost one person pretending to fight for women's rights. And then there's no one to fill. that void. Right. And again, you could read this, and I don't think this was the movie's intention at all, but, you know, it could have been commentary that, yeah, there are women who you would think would be championing for women's rights, but they turn out to be upholding the same sexist ideals of the patriarchy, which is very much a thing. There are many women like that. But the movie,

it just seems is like yeah she like the only other woman in the movie is evil and well there's also Mrs. Nurse who is oh right Mrs. Medic who is weaponized in a way we haven't talked about yet right where we

he didn't talk about the homophobia plot point which is a seed that is planted and then it comes back how thrilling when the senator was outright transphobic and homophobic and homophobic at the beginning.

I was unfortunately, like, turned on, tried to go into my 1997 brain. I'm like, I'm assuming that her transphobia is completely being played as a joke and audiences are not supposed to have a problem with it. Right. The homophobia I was less sure about of like, are we, because she makes such a point of it to be like, I need to make sure you're a straight normal lady. You're getting dicked down by a man with a penis, right? you better be telling someone to get you get your dick back in here every night and she's like don't you worry i am i'm the most normal woman alive yeah but that home that again just like this brain dead ass movie where they bring back the homophobia because she goes to the beach with women and makes physical contact with the only woman she's met in the military barely even like it's so obviously platonic like

Yeah. I mean, but I do believe in like the 90s tabloid culture, this could be weaponized against someone successfully. I definitely do believe that. But again, it's just like the way that it plays out is like it's not that that is something that should be pushed back on. It's that because they also once again go out of their way to be like, we're not asking and you don't have to tell us. but which I also know did happen but then her way of dealing with it she's like well this sucks because I'm not queer and then she leaves and was like that's not the only thing that sucks they're like it's just this character is unable to conceive of anything outside of her personal predicament and so any like social commentary that happens is because it is directly relevant to her is why she's always asking would you ask him man this because she's a woman and she's directly experiencing the prejudice. But when it comes to literally anyone else, whether it be anyone who's not white, whether it be queer people, she's like, well, that sucks because I'm straight and white. And then she like stomps home. And again, and again, when she's like threatening Anne Bancroft, she's like, I'm going to go, I'm going

to say something about this publicly. I'm going to say this on MSNBC. And it's like, great. do that. But then when she gets what she wants, which is to, like, go commit a war crime, she shuts up and never says anything. So it's like, yeah, she's awful. Yeah. You know, I think this is like a really, I think this is a really big theme of the movie, which is that like, everything is about, um, everything is about individual experiences and individual, um, interactions to everybody's detriment right so this is about like her as an individual experiencing you know discrimination in different ways and how she overcomes it um but but the system and the rules and and nothing ever changes and i think i was really thinking about this in terms of what

i think are a set of really disappointing ending scenes So the end of this movie is the ceremony on the beach where, you know, the people who have made it through the training are entered into great. You made it into the Navy SEALs. Good job. They've just murdered dozens of brown people in Libya. Yeah, that's right. And so handshakes all around.

Congratulations, Soldier. Here's your Navy SEALs little metal thing, whatever. And then that cuts to Jordan, like in the lock. room kind of putting her stuff away she realizes that master chief vigo mortensen has put a book of poems in her locker or in her area and inserted another metal like we can only assume is because she saved his life right right and then and then they make eye contact and they're alone they're alone in the in this locker room they make eye contact kind of like the honorable nod at one another I see you, you see me.

And then the movie is over. And so there's a lot of questions I have. Like, number one, the movie proves to you, tells you multiple times there's no systemic change here, even as to some sort of like collective change, even among her team of trainees that she just went through this, that there's no ceremony around her getting this medal publicly. Like, there's no, like, team at the end of this movie, the people that she's just been through all of this with. There's no like celebratory or like GI Jordan. We really actually, you know, we did it together, you know, kind of thing. There's no, there's nothing. It ends with her in front

of a locker. Like, right. Yeah. I don't know. Does that make sense? Like no. It's just the lady. It's just this lady. Right. You would think there would be like, and now women are allowed to do the thing. Yeah. But there's none of that. Yeah. It's just. like it is so hyper individualistic every step of the way to go back to the don't ask don't tell of it all oh yeah so after these like beach photos have been revealed and she's like these accusations are bogus but she also says like she's like are you suggesting that i'm a lesbian well you better drop these malicious accusations as if she's also home homophobic. Yeah. Well, she is.

Yeah. I'm like she, we have no reason to believe that she holds anything but firmly right wing beliefs based on everything we see her do and say in this whole movie. True. Yeah. The, the homophobia here to the degree, and I don't think it is, but if there is some tiny interpretation that could be made that like homophobia in the military is unjust and wrong, which I don't think the movie is due. right it's still you are still supposed to kind of shrug your shoulders and understand why that would be wielded against her or like wielded against anybody right like you're still supposed to be like you know if maybe you're like yeah but being queer isn't wrong right it's still the the lesson

is still supposed to be but like but but don't you see like you can't be publicly queer you know like that's that's that's the that's the best that can be said about the homophobia here and what a 1997 sentiment is like hot white women can join the military but but you better be straight or you're not welcome here like it's just the the line is so clear wait I need to find this oh yes okay this is from that same spy culture again if anyone knows about the legitimacy of the publication spy culture sounds like a scholarly journal to me yeah their logo is very silly I'm like They got the document. I don't know. Okay. I have not vetted spy culture. But they had a behind-the-scenes fact that I did not see anywhere else. So continuing on this back and forth between Ridley Scott and the DOD, Scott agreed to almost all the changes requested. But even after he submitted a heavily altered script, the DOD still said no. This led to an amusing but not unprecedented incident where Demi Moore called up the White House and asked to talk to President Clinton to try to get the decision overturned. The DOD file on G.J.

include several press cuttings about this, all of which makes sexy jokes. Yeah. So also Demi Moore called one of our pedophile presidents to try to get her imperialism movie made as intended. You're just like. And the White House was probably like, lady, you just did strip teas and it sucked. Demi Moore in 97 doesn't have social or political capital at the White House. I mean and unfortunately that is like reflected in all because it sucks because like Demi Moore is willingly participating in this imperialist slop. Yeah. And also she is kind of treated like shit a lot. Yeah. Just getting demeaned left and right. Yeah. Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss? I'm looking at my notes, but don't want to be batting for the other side. They will eat corn flakes out of your skull.

the boyfriend telling we don't have to talk about that I just took notes on like the wildest lines you know yeah there are some lines that are just straight up weird like just yeah

the brain fart thing the cornflake skull the get your dick back in here worm sperm worm sperm don't forget at least we had worm sperm this movie gave us worm sperm and

nothing else I'm grateful yeah that's all I had this movie does pass the Bechtel test, as we said at the beginning of the episode, but again, at what cost? Yeah, this is a great example of the reason why it was, to this day, Alison Bechdle is like, that was not how I intended it for it to be used. Right. Yes.

As far as our nipple scale, though, where we rate the movie based on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining it through. Yes, hard visible nipples through your white tams. tank top, based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. I think maybe if I had watched this movie 10 years ago, I would have given it like two nipples. Today, I'm giving it zero nipples because it really is just a propaganda tool for American imperialism and American military industrial complex.

And those are the most evil entities imaginable. so I give it zero nipples if I did have to give it some I I'll give one a foot rot or whatever Jordan gets diagnosed with on her foot I can why why bring foot rot into it I'm not sure cut to the foot rot like yeah one foot rot to the line worm sperm but zero nipples yeah I'm also going zero this I'm I like I'm I'm glad that this movie was not successful in doing what it wanted to do. I would recommend, I mean, I'm going to, when we get off this call,

I'm going to keep watching that documentary because I think that that's like something that should be talked about a lot if like how absolutely complicit so many filmmakers and now I think even more so video game creators are in working with the American military

and how, yeah, and how so much of this, I mean, this specific movie is clearly targeting women but how so much of this entertainment targets children so that when the recruiters come around they have already been fully encouraged to view fighting for an imperial force as normal and good and righteous and all this stuff

so yeah no no nipples it sucked yeah zero nipples for sure from me love it when we're all in agreement Riannan thank you so much for joining us It was a pleasure. This was really fun. Thanks for having me.

Oh, my gosh. Come back anytime. Please. Tell us about your podcasts. Tell us where people can check them out, etc. Sure. So wherever you get your podcast, both of these, my podcast 5 to 4 is a podcast about how much the Supreme Court sucks. We talk about, discuss, present, basically left critique of the Supreme Court, critique of the conservative legal movement, you know.

there's six fascists up there right now there's a lot to talk about so check out five to four for all the uh supreme court uh depression news and then um and then i'm also on a podcast called popular cradle which is a little bit newer and popular cradle is a podcast about Palestine from here in the far diaspora um i am on that podcast with two Palestinian organizers community organizers And we're talking about the Palestinian liberation movement, the history of Palestinian resistance, what's going on right now, gesturing at everything, and more. So, yeah, you can check both of those out. Wherever you get podcasts, you can follow me on Blue Sky at Awa Rianan. A-A-W-A-W-A-R-A-W-A-R-N, and you can check out our Patreon for 5-4 at patreon.com slash 5-4 pod, all spelled out.

excellent thank you again come back anytime thank you death to gai jane sorry death death death death to i was thinking of the wendy williams the wendy williams the wendy williams me um you can follow our our patreon as well aka matrion at patreon dot com slash bectalcast two bonus episodes a month plus the entire back catalog. And with that, at ease, soldiers. At ease. Bye.

Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of I-Heart Media, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichten, edited by Mo LaBorde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrosensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus.

and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. Hi, my name is Enya Humanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you.

But if you have unmedicated ADHD, oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you Open your free IHeartRadio app Search Emergency Intercom and listen now

What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison Or the most brutal boot camp Designed to be hell on earth Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo This was the choice he faced He said you are a number A New York State number and we own you

Listen to shock incarceration on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Super Secret Bestie Club podcast season four is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy chisement. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex. No, no, no, no.

We're not doing that this season. Oh. Well, this season, we're leveling up. Each episode will feature a special Bestie, and you're not going to want to miss it. My name is Curley. And I'm Maya. Get in here! Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

It's important that we just reassure people that they're not alone and there is help out there. The Good Stuff podcast, season two, takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a non-profit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join host Jacob and Ashley Schick as they bring you to the front lines of One Tribe's mission. One Tribe saved my life twice. Welcome to Season 2 of The Good Stuff. Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast.